Jan. 6, 2026
AJ Rich on Becoming the Dad You Want to Be in an Anxious World
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What does it actually take to feel grounded, confident, and present as a dad when anxiety is rising, expectations are shifting, and the world feels louder than ever?
AJ Rich is a licensed marriage and family therapist, practice owner, and doctoral candidate who works almost exclusively with men. After nearly 20 years in corporate leadership, AJ transitioned into clinical work and now helps dads navigate identity, emotional intelligence, anxiety, and growth without losing themselves or their families in the process.
In this conversation, AJ shares how men can move beyond coping and toward real psychological wellbeing, even while juggling work pressure, parenting, and constant change.
You will hear AJ break down how to:
• Understand anxiety as a signal, not a failure
• Build emotional intelligence without losing strength or credibility
• Develop the language to describe what you are actually feeling
• Shift from survival mode into sustainable growth
• Redefine success beyond titles, income, or external validation
• Identify what is holding you back when you feel stuck
Dig Deeper
Brené Brown: Atlas of the Heart on HBO Max
Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown (book)
This is How We Do It by Montell Jordan
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Gap to Gig Episode 9 with AJ Rich
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Speaker: [00:00:00] We can't overstate it enough, like the numbers are alarming. There are more anxious people now than there are not anxious. And so when you really consider that this is more than a phenomenon, this is a, I think a paradigmal shift in the way that we live.
Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for Dads re-imagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm sitting down with someone who understands men in a very real way.
AJ Rich is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a practice owner, a clinical supervisor, and a doctoral candidate in psychology. After nearly 20 years in corporate roles, he shifted into full-time clinical work and now leads a thriving therapy group in Los Angeles. He works almost exclusively with men.
Many are dads juggling identity, pressure, anxiety, and the rising expectation that men build [00:01:00] emotional intelligence in ways earlier generations never had to. AJ also studies psychological wellbeing and organizational psychology while raising kids and managing the demands of his own business. This conversation is a chance to explore how men grow, adapt, and stay grounded in a world where everything feels louder, faster, and more unpredictable.
AJ, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here today.
AJ: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Michael: It's my pleasure. I wanna start with your personal turning point. You spent nearly two decades climbing the corporate ladder before changing direction. What was happening inside your mind during that period that pushed you to follow the path you've been thinking about for years?
AJ: Hmm, great question. think there were a couple things that converged all at once. The first was I was in an industry where I could see that the end of it was coming. It was corporate retail, and our biggest competitor had closed, which was shocking to the world. And our [00:02:00] president of the company also left the organization around that time and so just the little tingles began about a year before I actually made the jump where I was confronted with having to figure out what my career would look like for the rest of my life.
Michael: Sure.
AJ: And, I think the way that I was able to actually do that was a lot of research and a lot of contemplation to figure out what it would look like and how it would fit into my life.
Michael: And you say a lot of research, but you also said it kind of sounded like in the beginning it was also a bit of intuition, right? Was there some sort of balance there between, was it the intuition that led you to do the research to figure out what you wanna do next? Or was it where they kind of part and parcel or together as one thing?
AJ: Yeah. I think they, they definitely fed into each other. The intuition was kind of the spark that something has to come next, and the research was my way of figuring out what that [00:03:00] actually meant and, and listening to my intuition, maybe for one of the first times in my adult life.
Michael: Excellent. So, many dads, they fantasize about a, a change like this, but they never make the leap. What helped you move forward instead of just staying comfortable in your old identity? Was it just the research or was there, there's something else beyond that, that helped you decide, you know what, this is it, I'm gonna make that change.
AJ: Yeah, I think the biggest indicator was being a dad. My daughter was approaching the end of her elementary school years, and I was working 60 or 70 hours a week, had been her entire life, and didn't really think about anything different from that. So, the research was to help me figure out if I was gonna make such a drastic jump, one, how to make it possible. Money and finances were a big part of the research of what I could do in the interim. I found a, a psychology program that allowed me to keep my full-time job for the first [00:04:00] few months while I integrated into that. And then by the time the clinical portion kicked in, I had already kind of worked through the plan of what was gonna come next and we really had to buckle down as a family.
It was a family decision. So getting my spouse and my child. All involved in the decision took some time and some convincing. And yeah, it, it, it really came to a head after a big work trip. I was laying on the floor of my office here in Southern California and just decided, this is it. I've done all the, the work to get here, and now it's go time.
And it was very scary, but retrospect, very rewarding too.
Michael: Yeah, I bet, I bet. It's interesting, you, you mentioned that, while it's your career that we're talking about, it was an, a group decision, essentially. It was a family decision, right? Your spouse, your daughter, like you, [00:05:00] you had to get everybody involved cause ultimately you support each other, right? So.
AJ: Yes.
Michael: If you're gonna make this change, your spouse needs to be able to support you making that change, whether it's financial or psychological or what, or emotional reasons, but also it's gonna have an impact on your child, too.
AJ: Yeah. And my daughter was really enthusiastic back then because, you know, as I started to go back to school and have my textbooks out and everything, she was also, you know, entering that phase of her own education. So, we had lots of study nights together and, and tried to make it as routine into our life as absolutely possible.
Michael: That's awesome. I love that. You work almost exclusively with men, and you mentioned that developing emotional intelligence is something that men often could avoid before. Nowadays with social media, with AI, and everything else, what does building emotional intelligence or EQ look like in a practical [00:06:00] day-to-day way for the men you work with?
AJ: Hmm. I think it starts with defining what EQ even means. Right? I think many of us that are parents understand this because we see emotionally-driven children until, you know, life takes hold and, and that all gets worked out in the wash. But I think really understanding that we're not talking about something revolutionary here.
We're talking about this idea that maybe these emotions that we all have, that we're already experiencing are data and information that we should utilize just like we do cognition and thought and, and those other, other elements. So I think I start by just explaining like, nothing groundbreaking is about to happen here.
We're just gonna tap into something that's always existed in you
Michael: Sure.
AJ: and see what comes up.
Michael: And when you, when you do that with your clients, [00:07:00] do you see, I assume you see some resistance, it's from some of them. But you also can clearly explain the benefits to looking into EQ, but if somebody feels embarrassed or unsure, or afraid of looking weak by addressing their emotional intelligence, what, what is that resistance that's kind of holding them back?
AJ: You know, there's tons of emerging data coming out right now that has transformed the way I think about this. Up until maybe a year ago, if we had been having this conversation, I would have a completely different answer. But what we're learning through the benefit of technology is that we're actually emotional creatures who think. We always thought we had the thought and then the tears came to our eyes. But now, because we've been able to dig deeper, we understand that it happens the other way around. The tears to your eyes over the deceased loved one that you're thinking about arrive before the thought of them. [00:08:00] And so when I see some resistance in a, at a client or potential client, I start by that.
We're just, we're just honoring what already is and getting you to recognize that, yes, the emotion actually does arrive first. What is it? What's it even called? I think another tangible exercise that I use with a lot of my clients is just a basic feelings wheel. I think if you ask most men, we have, you know, a handful of emotions that we can recognize. And so showing something that has those five primary or six primary emotions and then branches out to, you know, hundreds and if not thousands of emotions, is a good way of just developing vocabulary and explaining what you're already experiencing.
So, the difference between like dread and overwhelm. Right? Two distinct emotions, but probably would fit into the same category in, in regular speech. And, so, it's this, it's explaining kind of the [00:09:00] biological impacts as we're discussing here, the emotional creatures who think, along with language and thought to even explain what EQ is and how it could be utilized.
Michael: Right. I think as a, as a dad myself, yes, I know I have emotions. I don't express them often. Right? I know I have them and I know they show up and it's maybe beyond my conscience control, like subconsciously I must be displaying them. But it's I, I think what hit me was when you said there's a vocabulary, right?
Just learning the vocabulary of it is, I think as dads, oftentimes, we're so focused on everything around us. We oftentimes forget to focus on ourselves, and it's hard to express that because we don't have the right words. And I think when you said like using that emotion, the wheel of emotions and talking about, or [00:10:00] having a vocabulary to describe what you're feeling. For me at least, it feels like it's missing, right? Like, I think I need a better vocabulary. And it really, it's really impactful to hear that like, yes, you can. It's okay to have emotions, first of all, right? Everybody has them. It's okay to express them. But to address them, to have language, to be able to communicate that to someone, I never really thought about it because obviously I'm thinking about a hundred other things going on during the day, whether it's taking care of my kids, taking care of my work, whatever it may be, we can't forget about ourselves and having vocabulary to explain kind of what we're feeling seems like there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of us as dads, or at least me as a dad, determine like figuring out what that vocabulary is and starting to integrate that into, into life. So it was, I find that very interesting. I [00:11:00] appreciate you sharing that.
AJ: People are struggling with this like, okay, sounds great. I'll Google a feelings wheel and start coming up with language. I'd also recommend there's some really quality research in the last couple years by Brene Brown. She did a four part docuseries on HBO Max for her book called Atlas of the Heart, so you could read the book, which is a great descriptor of kind of emotions overall and how they get integrated and help with that development of language. Or if reading is not your thing and you would rather watch something, what I really like about that docuseries is that they present film clips to differentiate between different emotions, so you can really see how you feel as you watch it, and if you can kind of recognize what they're talking about on screen. And most of us are much better at spotting it in somebody else than they are in.
Michael: Right.
AJ: And we are in spotting it in ourselves. And so seeing it presented in that way is a really helpful tool that I offer to many of my clients at the beginning of our work in therapy.
Michael: [00:12:00] Interesting. And we'll make sure to link to those resources in our, in our show notes as well.
AJ: Great.
Michael: So, recognizing these emotions and be able to communicate them out is important, but at the same time, a lot of dads often feel overwhelmed by the pressure to, to grow, perform, be present at home, be present at work.
How do you help someone define growth in a way that feels sustainable grounded?
AJ: One, I usually start with slow, slow our roll. Like before we grow we gotta tend to the root system, figure out what is, what happened, why we are the way that we are. And, you know, this will be my only plug for this, but that's a great topic to go start therapy about is just kind of figuring out what is. I'm also a big personal believer that I only focus on growth when I'm moving my body. And [00:13:00] so I am not, when I'm lazy on the couch on a weekend is not the time for me to be thinking about how to accelerate my career or grow my practice even more. And so I've kind of made a commitment to myself that if I'm walking the dogs or exercising, that is a chance where I'm already kind of attuned to growth in another way and then I'll, I'll bring in some something about expansion or a podcast or listen to something that helps me think about expanding even more.
Michael: Yep. Do you feel that by setting up these kind of defined times or defined activities to address some of these emotional needs that helps you kind of create a routine? Or is it just that's what works for you? Or is it like the ex doing exercise or going for a walk that's like, okay, now I know that's my time to put on my, my thinking hat.
AJ: Yeah, I think it's more the latter. I recognize that I'm already [00:14:00] motivated. If I got my sneakers laced up and I'm already moving, that's a chance where i'm probably more in balance than I was before, so that's my indicator to even begin digging into growth and expansion. But if I'm not doing that, I just kinda shut down that little voice that's saying, do more, grow more, expand more, and say like, "not the time, not the place." And, so, I do use a routine. You know, I'm, I'm generally moving my body around the same times, and so I'm listening to some of this growth stuff at the same time as well.
Michael: Got it. That makes sense. So I've seen a lot that anxiety numbers for men are rising, and I know of many dads, myself included, that have suffered from anxiety and it's, it's a tough thing to go through, but it's something that you can, or at least I found that I can manage, right? It takes work, it takes time.
It takes, [00:15:00] you know, a commitment to, to manage it. Are there patterns or triggers that show up most often with dads that you found that do have suffer from anxiety?
AJ: Yes, and we can't overstate it enough, like the numbers are alarming. There are more anxious people now than there are not anxious. And so when you really consider that this is more than a phenomenon. This is a, I think, a paradigmal shift in the way that we live. I think a couple things come to mind.
One is we're witnessing in real time news throughout the globe, which never existed before, and it's hard not to feel anxious when so much data is coming in. So I usually start there with a client who presents with some clinical anxiety about kind of broad existential worry and fear, [00:16:00] and then bring that into your individual life and really figure out like what are you most concerned or worried about and are there other ways, coping strategies that we could deal with those thoughts and feelings as they present themselves.
Michael: Got it. Got it. And are there, is it possible for your clients to kind of come to you and be like, yes, I feel like I'm having anxiety. These are the things that I see. Or is it something that somebody on the outside is like, oh, you're probably suffering from anxiety because I see X, Y, and Z.
AJ: I'd say it's pretty evenly split. If I think about it, I many times it does take the prompt of a spouse or somebody on the outside to say this feels outside of the norm for you, and I think I wanna be conscientious here. There's a, a distinct difference between fear and worry, which we all experience from day to day and clinical anxiety, which is [00:17:00] impacting your social life, your professional life, or your home life in a way that is distracting and taking away time. And that is really the indicator light in my clinical opinion, that it's time to seek some professional help or try to figure out what's going on there. When you realize that you'd rather be doing something or rather be focused on something, but the thought or fear or worry is so strong that you can't, that is where I think we turn a corner into clinical anxiety.
Michael: Got it. That makes sense. And so your doctoral work focuses on psychological wellbeing, if I remember correctly. How do you define psychological wellness in a way that makes sense to dads today who feel overloaded. What does that really mean?
AJ: Yeah. When I began my dissertation, this was the big question, is you can't just say what is psychologically well without [00:18:00] expanding and defining what that actually means. Where I draw from is the University of Pennsylvania's definition, which is used in an acronym called PERMA. That's equal representations of these five components: positive emotions, positive relationships, meaning, and accomplishment. And so when I'm really thinking with a client or even just with a friend or family member about overall wellbeing, I'm kind of scanning those five categories, and I think if you can hit on all five, you're one of the very few lucky people in the world, but generally, I'd say to feel somewhere in balance, you need to have three or four of those elements working in a positive direction or have a plan to make them work in a more positive direction in order to be considered psychologically well using this definition.
Michael: And are any of those five more important than others, [00:19:00] or are they all kind of equally weighted?
AJ: They are equally weighted according to the researchers who developed them. However, they have a lot of overlap and parallels, meaning it might be hard to be engaged with something if you have a negative relationship with the person in which you wanna engage with those activities with. So, oftentimes you might need to focus on one of those elements first, and then by focusing on it and, and confronting it, maybe other elements come in into balance in a way that you wouldn't have expected or without dedicated work on that specific secondary element.
Michael: Okay, so when someone feels like they've lost their sense of self in work, parenting, or maybe they're in survival mode, where do you start to help them kind of rebuild a clear identity?
AJ: I think it's important to start with figuring out which silo of [00:20:00] identity is the most impacted. Most of us are balancing three or four primary identities all at once, right? A family life, a professional life, a social life and all of those have their own identity characteristics, so I'd probably start with figuring out which one's the most impacted negatively. And the other thing I'd say is putting some action to it, right? We can talk all day long in therapy about how I'm feeling and what it might be, but, to me, what I try to do with my clients and with myself is design some kind of challenge to explore this and, and see if I can make some difference. So, and I'm not talking about some big fundamental challenge, but if I'm having trouble with meaning, for instance, then I might really focus on like, do is my professional identity feeling fulfilled right now?
Do I feel like I'm actually helping the clients and patients that come to me? And if that's not the case, then [00:21:00] I might design a plan to do an additional training or try a different approach with a particular client to see if that gets us unstuck. So, I think it's really important to frame out what we're working on and then develop some tangible action-oriented steps to see if we can make a difference on it.
Michael: Sure. And you're saying that those tangible action-oriented steps should be, don't necessarily have to be these grand gestures or grand actions. You can really start small and kind of build along the way. Am I understanding that correctly?
AJ: Yes, please do that because I think sometimes this is, this is the challenge, right? If the challenge itself is too large, then you're not gonna attempt it or the first roadblock you experience with it, you're not gonna persist. And so I'm a big believer in staircase, staircasing out goals, objectives, action orientation and taking into consideration your real life, too.[00:22:00]
Michael: Right.
AJ: You don't have, maybe you don't have time to take an additional training class right now because it's, the holidays are upon us or whatever is going on in your life. And so really small nibbles to see if they're making ,a a difference. And then you can take larger bites as you make the positive progress that you're hoping for.
Michael: Yep. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. One step at a time and just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you'll continue to make progress. But if you just stand there and just let it all fall, then you're not actually moving forward. You're just staying where you're staying in place, which is not where you wanna be if you're, you feel like you're losing yourself in whatever aspect of your life you're in.
AJ: Exactly. Exactly.
Michael: Makes sense. So I wanna shift this just a little bit to the kind of the career front for dads and for dads who are navigating career uncertainty. You know, whether it's economic times [00:23:00] or there's this rapid technological change we're going through right now, particularly with AI. How do you help them find a healthier relationship with confidence?
AJ: Hmm Hmm. It's an excellent question because what I'm being confronted with over and over again is a lack of confidence. I, I think that actually links back to what we were talking about with anxiety in some ways too, is with all this data, with all this information, with so much at our disposal, I think that it's eroded confidence more than helped people or been a tool to expand upon it and I'd also say like, where I generally start would be at home. If we need to work on just generalized confidence,
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: is there something that you can do that you wanted to do with one of your kids, right? Can you get down on the floor and stay in the tea party with your daughter for 45 minutes or so, or do you feel that [00:24:00] itch the second that it starts to feel weird or strange, or she asks you to say or do something that you don't wanna do, and I think kids are a great conduit for this because they're gonna always make us feel more confident if we engage with them on a full level. So I think dads can often start there. Get your house in order is kind of my big statement in therapy. Like, get, be confident about that. Is everybody flowing together in the way that you hope they would?
Are the relationships as strong as you hope that they would be? And then, let's, once that house is in order, I think then we can expand to professional pursuits, career shifts, all of these other categories that we're talking about.
Michael: Got it. Yeah. I love that. I like that you can, you're making the steps attainable by starting at home, right?
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Michael: You can't necessarily, you can't control everything, right? And [00:25:00] just trying to make home a little bit better for yourself and for your family can give you a little bit more confidence as you address what's going on in your work life or your social life or whatever else you, you may be doing with your life, your volunteer life, whatever it might be.
And you can always address what's going on at home. That is one thing where whether you're the parent or even the child, like you have some say in what happens in the house and to make it attainable, but also, it's also a relationship builder with your own family too, right? Like you're putting in a little bit extra effort now at home to, and it, yes, it's gonna help build your confidence, but it's also gonna strengthen your relationships, I think.
Right? Which then will, I assume, help build your confidence further, so when you do go back to, you're, go back into work mode, you are, you have [00:26:00] a little bit more confidence to address whatever concerns that you, you have at work. So, like how that's just like a, a great first step because it's, it is attainable, right?
It's not like, oh, you need to study these seven things and then take this test and figure out like, can you do this? Can you not? No, you could do that, right? You do it every day. It's just a matter of can you make it a little bit better? Can you strengthen that? Can you give yourself a little bit more confidence in the house?
That confidence will carry over elsewhere, or at least show you that yes, you could do this at home, you could probably do it elsewhere too.
AJ: Yes. And I think you nailed it on the head when you, you talked about control. Cause I think confidence and control often work in tandem with one another. When we feel out of control,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: our confidence diminishes in some ways. And where else do you get to practice being the CEO and, pretty much, you know, you might have a co-CEO in your spouse, but
Michael: Right.
AJ: pretty much get to make the decisions that you wanna make and then get to see how those [00:27:00] are impacted before you consider doing that in the workplace or for your own business or whatever it might be.
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: You want to make sure that in areas where you do have more control than others, that you run it in the way that you want it to
Michael: Right.
AJ: because you're gonna need the, all those skills when, when control is more limited
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: in work or business.
Michael: Right. So let's, let's flip the script on this a little bit in that we talk about control. You work often times with recovering perfectionists.
People pleasers, people that have a different type of control. How do those traits show up uniquely for dads trying to succeed at work and at home?
AJ: So I think the first thing in, in recognizing perfectionism, people pleasing. These are all what I would consider psychological defenses. These are your system's way through life [00:28:00] of trying to keep you safe. And so if we want to confront any of them or other defenses such as abandonment or other things that you're probably ultra familiar with, we have to recognize the source. Where did that come about? Where did you even get the idea that being really available to somebody else is a way of being chosen.
And is that really how you wanna be chosen? I think we have to really question the premise and men often struggle with this exercise because we don't really wanna go backwards. We just want to fix what currently is and so a lot of my work, as you can imagine, is convincing people that the past matters a whole lot. Not to blame or for any other reason, but just to simply understand because you have to recognize that you are being defensive by people pleasing or whatever else you are [00:29:00] doing
Michael: sure.
AJ: in an effort to try to keep yourself safe, and when you recognize that there's other ways that you can do that, that are probably healthier, more comprehensive for you, that's where we can begin to make a difference there.
Michael: That makes sense. That's really interesting that taking a look back at the past. I, I tend to, I think, at least for me, and I think there's probably some other dads out there that we're always looking forward, right? Like, what comes next, right? But sometimes some of our, maybe, not great habits or some of our tendencies clearly come from someone or something in the past that kind of programmed us to be like, okay, this is how you handle this thing.
And never, I don't think enough about looking back when oftentimes I, I tend to focus on just looking forward, but it makes sense to look back, to figure out. To get the reasoning why you're doing the, the behavior so that you [00:30:00] can address that behavior, right?
AJ: Yes. I also think many people assume this is gonna be some big epiphany. You're gonna unlock some trauma history that you're not gonna know what to do with. Many times I'm hearing something like my very first boss was really hard on me,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: and so ever since then I've just tried to stay ahead of whatever "boss" wants, right?
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: And that's totally understandable. There's no big trauma to unpack there, but just understanding, oh, right, the second that I started working, I had somebody who was really diligent about, about picking my work apart and wanted me to do an excellent job, and so I've just, just decided that this defense is gonna work for me. But again, like we were talking about with other emotions and elements of the past. Generally these are little blips of something that happened that once you kind of speak it into existence, you can be like, oh yeah, like not every boss since then has been like [00:31:00] that.
Michael: Right.
AJ: Many bosses actually don't like my over communication or whatever it might be, and, and that might fix it all on its own by just recognizing that initial trigger point.
Michael: Yeah, that's a great point. You said speaking into existence kind of makes me think about what you said earlier when it came to the wheel of emotions and just having that vocabulary. It's almost in a way having a vocabulary for why you do the things that you are doing that maybe you don't want to continue to do, right? It's finding what is it that caused that? Like, what are the words that help you identify what that is? So you'd be like, okay, it was my, the way I wanted, my boss wanted things. But like you said, your current boss might not have that same demand or even appreciate that kind of work. It might actually work to the negative.
So it's like finding out why you were doing that so that you can identify it. So you can be like, okay, now I'm cognizant of it. Now, I can shift how I address that going forward.
AJ: Exactly. [00:32:00] Exactly.
Michael: It's interesting how the emotion, the same thing you do with emotions, is this kind of the same thing you're doing here with figuring out like why you do some of the things that you do.
It's, I've never made that connection before. It's fascinating.
AJ: Yes. And I think it demystifies this idea that like therapy or unpacking even on our own our backgrounds is gonna be some labor intensive process, and for many people it is because they have had those lived experiences. But for the vast majority of people that I work with, we're generally talking about little blips and moments in sixth period of tenth grade that just.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: I, I forgot the assignment, and ever since then, I promised myself I never miss an assignment again. And as soon as the person says it with the vocabulary, you can almost see in the therapy room just the, oh my gosh, this is, this is so much simpler than what I was expecting.
Michael: That's awesome. I [00:33:00] love that. All right, I wanna move on along to contacting the other end of this spectrum, which is dads who wanna continue to grow, but maybe they feel like they've hit a ceiling and they've kind of, now they feel stuck, like they've accomplished a lot, but they wanna accomplish more, but they don't know what, what to do next.
How do you, what's the first question you ask them to get unstuck, or how do you help them identify what might be holding them back?
AJ: I think my very first question would be, describe the top floor before you broke the ceiling. What was going on in that moment that made you think that was kind of the top floor or the ending? Right? And I think what I often hear in response to something like that was, I hit the salary amount that I wanted to make, or I received the job title that I've been hoping for since I [00:34:00] graduated from college and then we have some actual elements to begin unpacking and figuring out. Okay, so if we could go back in and rewrite the story and come up with a secondary goal for that version of you, what else is in the suitcase of ideas and possibilities for you? What do you actually think would be meaningful? I often ask people also, when they're contemplating this at the beginning, what do people that love you tell you? If you sit back and listen at a holiday party or something like that, people are always telling people what they see positive in them.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: Right? When I first got introduced to you, I told you you have a voice for radio, like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: right? Not only do I think that that helps build confidence for many people, but I think it also presents this idea that there are no ceilings, right?
Like, life is an infinite [00:35:00] possibility, and you can do whatever it is that your heart desires. You just gotta find the way to do it and then actually devise the plan, but focus on your strengths. Focus on what the people that love you are telling you about yourself and, and see if that branches off into something that's a good idea for you.
Michael: That's awesome. That, that's so smart to not just focus on the positives, but think about how other people perceive your positive strengths so that you can use that to kind of now re-identify what your, what your new goals are. I, I could see how that would help get unstuck very quickly.
AJ: Yes, yes.
Michael: You see men now who want to go deeper, not just talk about the, the surface problems. I know you said a lot of your clients, you know, it's not necessarily they're coming to you because they've had some traumatic past that they, where there's a lot of unpacking to do, but sometimes, [00:36:00] you know, there's somewhere in between that, like the surface level stuff and the deep level issues.
What helps a dad shift from kind of coping to genuine transformation if they're kind of in between?
AJ: I think this is where most of us are. And I wanna just say that first, which is, I think most of us reside somewhere in the middle.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: And maybe the first, very first thing I might offer is, do you recognize that you're in the majority? Like you're not far behind and you're not far ahead. You're, you're with me
Michael: Yep.
AJ: and many others like us.
And just kind of normalize that experience. And then I would also explain the difference between thriving and coping. I think this is a big, talking about that feelings wheel and kind of digging in a little bit.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: Coping is like getting through,
Michael: Yeah,
AJ: taking an Advil to tame the headache that you have.
Michael: Sure.
AJ: Thriving is eating healthy, sleeping well, doing [00:37:00] all of these things to ward off as frequent of headaches as you're getting. And once we kind of establish where we are between coping and thriving, then we can begin to develop some actual tangible skills to, to move you to the thriving category, which is what we all want at the end of the day, I think.
Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, one more question before we go to the speed round. If a dad is, a dad is listening now feels anxious or overloaded, or just unsure of what to do next, what's one thing they can start doing now that can help them start moving toward feeling psychologically well again?
AJ: Mm-hmm. I think not just dad but dads, but men in general where I generally point people is start with your anger.
Michael: Even
AJ: if you have a great handle on your anger, explore it as its own entity and see what comes up. Because if we can [00:38:00] generally tackle anger as an emotion, then the other emotions that are gonna come up or maybe branch off from there are gonna come into view in a, in a way.
And I also think men who can kind of better manage their anger one day from the day previous see the benefit of doing this work more deeply, right? So anger is an emotion that we're all familiar with, even if we're, even if we're running a masterclass on handling our anger, which I'm not, and many of the men that I know are not doing,
Michael: Right.
AJ: but even if they were, there's still room to learn there
Michael: and,
AJ: and talking about like coping versus thriving, I would say thriving with anger is not letting the temper rule, letting the per the person rule. And so this is, this is the emotion that I generally start with, with most men, unless there's some other pressing issue to, to get [00:39:00] started with.
Michael: Sure, sure. Makes sense. All right. I wanna change things up. We're gonna do the speed round, which is a bunch of questions about nothing at all, but everything in the world depends on this. So this is, this is important. But no, it's really just fun. Excited to see where you go with these questions. So, five quick questions. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?
AJ: My daughter's a freshman in high school, so what first comes to mind is two shows: Doc McStuffins and Sofia the First
Michael: yes.
AJ: For the two songs that played for five or ten years in my house on repeat over and over again. And so those are the first two that I think of.
Michael: Yeah. My daughter is a freshman in high school as well, and I forgot about Sofia the First, but, my goodness. There were many years of the daily Sofia the First song. Doc McStuffins does not get out of my head. I will always sing the Doc McStuffins theme song. That [00:40:00] is, they, they won that jingle
AJ: Yes,
Michael: for sure.
AJ: It was really good.
What shows even are there, right? Like I'm thinking I probably watched a thousand of each of those shows, so I've heard the songs 2000 times collectively.
Michael: Right. Exactly. Exactly. There's so, there were so many episodes and even if there weren't, it just seemed like there were. What was your very first job?
AJ: My very first job was a sandwich artist at Subway.
Michael: Oh, wow.
AJ: And I worked there for about two weeks and then I got a second job in Food Avenue in Target, which younger people watching don't even know what Food Avenue is. There's been a Starbucks inside of most targets for many years now. But back then we used to pop popcorn and walk it around the store and sell it to people, and I loved it. It was so fun.
Michael: That's awesome. Very cool. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?
AJ: Oof. Neither. [00:41:00] I'd say the toddler-size T-Rex only cause I feel like I might have a shot at some level of control there, but they're both uncomfortable to contemplate.
Michael: For sure, for sure. Right. I do appreciate the honesty upfront of neither would be the preferable answer. I think that's where most of us would go. Few will admit.
AJ: Yes, yes.
Michael: What's your go-to karaoke song?
AJ: Oh, this is a good one because I have to reveal my one and only party trick by giving you the answer, which is, I do a mean This is How We Do It by Montell Jordan karaoke.
Michael: Oh, wow.
AJ: And for anybody listening, if you want, if you, if you don't feel like you're a very good singer, which I'm not, but you wanna get the crowd going and, and have a blast, do that song and see what happens.
Most, most people react positively to that song on [00:42:00] karaoke.
Michael: Interesting. Interesting. That's great. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?
AJ: So I carry a magic wand in my bag for work because I do a kind of therapy called EMDR: eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing, which requires it. So, anytime I'm cleaning out my bag and the wand pops out, if there's anybody around, they're like, "what's that about?" But it's, it's my magic wand that I wave in front of my clients for that particular type of work.
Michael: Nice. Very cool.
AJ: Yeah.
Michael: I appreciate you answering those speed round questions. Before we wrap up, I wanna give you space to share your work with anyone who wants to go deeper. Where can people find you and learn more about your practice, your team, the work you're doing?
AJ: Yeah, they can find out all of the information about my practice AJrichtherapy.com and they can always email me too at aj@ajrichtherapy.com.
Michael: Excellent. We'll put all that in the show [00:43:00] notes as well. AJ, thank you so much for this conversation. You brought so much clarity and honesty and honestly, just a lot of steady guidance to topics that I know so many dads are wrestling with right now, myself included. Your work, your research, your lived experience, the, I think that gives men and dads in particular hope that change is possible, right? Like you gave us very actionable ideas, very approachable, attainable concepts to work with. So I appreciate you joining the Gap to Gig community today. Thank you for taking the time to, to chat with me. And finally, if you're a dad listening to this and trying to figure out what comes next, maybe you're in between jobs, starting something new, or just looking for more meaning in your work, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. And if you took something valuable from this episode, send it to a dad you think could also benefit. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs, and this is Gap to Gig, where you're building work that fits your life, not the other way around. [00:44:00]
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Speaker: [00:00:00] We can't overstate it enough, like the numbers are alarming. There are more anxious people now than there are not anxious. And so when you really consider that this is more than a phenomenon, this is a, I think a paradigmal shift in the way that we live.
Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for Dads re-imagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm sitting down with someone who understands men in a very real way.
AJ Rich is a licensed marriage and family therapist, a practice owner, a clinical supervisor, and a doctoral candidate in psychology. After nearly 20 years in corporate roles, he shifted into full-time clinical work and now leads a thriving therapy group in Los Angeles. He works almost exclusively with men.
Many are dads juggling identity, pressure, anxiety, and the rising expectation that men build [00:01:00] emotional intelligence in ways earlier generations never had to. AJ also studies psychological wellbeing and organizational psychology while raising kids and managing the demands of his own business. This conversation is a chance to explore how men grow, adapt, and stay grounded in a world where everything feels louder, faster, and more unpredictable.
AJ, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you here today.
AJ: I'm so glad to be here. Thank you for having me.
Michael: It's my pleasure. I wanna start with your personal turning point. You spent nearly two decades climbing the corporate ladder before changing direction. What was happening inside your mind during that period that pushed you to follow the path you've been thinking about for years?
AJ: Hmm, great question. think there were a couple things that converged all at once. The first was I was in an industry where I could see that the end of it was coming. It was corporate retail, and our biggest competitor had closed, which was shocking to the world. And our [00:02:00] president of the company also left the organization around that time and so just the little tingles began about a year before I actually made the jump where I was confronted with having to figure out what my career would look like for the rest of my life.
Michael: Sure.
AJ: And, I think the way that I was able to actually do that was a lot of research and a lot of contemplation to figure out what it would look like and how it would fit into my life.
Michael: And you say a lot of research, but you also said it kind of sounded like in the beginning it was also a bit of intuition, right? Was there some sort of balance there between, was it the intuition that led you to do the research to figure out what you wanna do next? Or was it where they kind of part and parcel or together as one thing?
AJ: Yeah. I think they, they definitely fed into each other. The intuition was kind of the spark that something has to come next, and the research was my way of figuring out what that [00:03:00] actually meant and, and listening to my intuition, maybe for one of the first times in my adult life.
Michael: Excellent. So, many dads, they fantasize about a, a change like this, but they never make the leap. What helped you move forward instead of just staying comfortable in your old identity? Was it just the research or was there, there's something else beyond that, that helped you decide, you know what, this is it, I'm gonna make that change.
AJ: Yeah, I think the biggest indicator was being a dad. My daughter was approaching the end of her elementary school years, and I was working 60 or 70 hours a week, had been her entire life, and didn't really think about anything different from that. So, the research was to help me figure out if I was gonna make such a drastic jump, one, how to make it possible. Money and finances were a big part of the research of what I could do in the interim. I found a, a psychology program that allowed me to keep my full-time job for the first [00:04:00] few months while I integrated into that. And then by the time the clinical portion kicked in, I had already kind of worked through the plan of what was gonna come next and we really had to buckle down as a family.
It was a family decision. So getting my spouse and my child. All involved in the decision took some time and some convincing. And yeah, it, it, it really came to a head after a big work trip. I was laying on the floor of my office here in Southern California and just decided, this is it. I've done all the, the work to get here, and now it's go time.
And it was very scary, but retrospect, very rewarding too.
Michael: Yeah, I bet, I bet. It's interesting, you, you mentioned that, while it's your career that we're talking about, it was an, a group decision, essentially. It was a family decision, right? Your spouse, your daughter, like you, [00:05:00] you had to get everybody involved cause ultimately you support each other, right? So.
AJ: Yes.
Michael: If you're gonna make this change, your spouse needs to be able to support you making that change, whether it's financial or psychological or what, or emotional reasons, but also it's gonna have an impact on your child, too.
AJ: Yeah. And my daughter was really enthusiastic back then because, you know, as I started to go back to school and have my textbooks out and everything, she was also, you know, entering that phase of her own education. So, we had lots of study nights together and, and tried to make it as routine into our life as absolutely possible.
Michael: That's awesome. I love that. You work almost exclusively with men, and you mentioned that developing emotional intelligence is something that men often could avoid before. Nowadays with social media, with AI, and everything else, what does building emotional intelligence or EQ look like in a practical [00:06:00] day-to-day way for the men you work with?
AJ: Hmm. I think it starts with defining what EQ even means. Right? I think many of us that are parents understand this because we see emotionally-driven children until, you know, life takes hold and, and that all gets worked out in the wash. But I think really understanding that we're not talking about something revolutionary here.
We're talking about this idea that maybe these emotions that we all have, that we're already experiencing are data and information that we should utilize just like we do cognition and thought and, and those other, other elements. So I think I start by just explaining like, nothing groundbreaking is about to happen here.
We're just gonna tap into something that's always existed in you
Michael: Sure.
AJ: and see what comes up.
Michael: And when you, when you do that with your clients, [00:07:00] do you see, I assume you see some resistance, it's from some of them. But you also can clearly explain the benefits to looking into EQ, but if somebody feels embarrassed or unsure, or afraid of looking weak by addressing their emotional intelligence, what, what is that resistance that's kind of holding them back?
AJ: You know, there's tons of emerging data coming out right now that has transformed the way I think about this. Up until maybe a year ago, if we had been having this conversation, I would have a completely different answer. But what we're learning through the benefit of technology is that we're actually emotional creatures who think. We always thought we had the thought and then the tears came to our eyes. But now, because we've been able to dig deeper, we understand that it happens the other way around. The tears to your eyes over the deceased loved one that you're thinking about arrive before the thought of them. [00:08:00] And so when I see some resistance in a, at a client or potential client, I start by that.
We're just, we're just honoring what already is and getting you to recognize that, yes, the emotion actually does arrive first. What is it? What's it even called? I think another tangible exercise that I use with a lot of my clients is just a basic feelings wheel. I think if you ask most men, we have, you know, a handful of emotions that we can recognize. And so showing something that has those five primary or six primary emotions and then branches out to, you know, hundreds and if not thousands of emotions, is a good way of just developing vocabulary and explaining what you're already experiencing.
So, the difference between like dread and overwhelm. Right? Two distinct emotions, but probably would fit into the same category in, in regular speech. And, so, it's this, it's explaining kind of the [00:09:00] biological impacts as we're discussing here, the emotional creatures who think, along with language and thought to even explain what EQ is and how it could be utilized.
Michael: Right. I think as a, as a dad myself, yes, I know I have emotions. I don't express them often. Right? I know I have them and I know they show up and it's maybe beyond my conscience control, like subconsciously I must be displaying them. But it's I, I think what hit me was when you said there's a vocabulary, right?
Just learning the vocabulary of it is, I think as dads, oftentimes, we're so focused on everything around us. We oftentimes forget to focus on ourselves, and it's hard to express that because we don't have the right words. And I think when you said like using that emotion, the wheel of emotions and talking about, or [00:10:00] having a vocabulary to describe what you're feeling. For me at least, it feels like it's missing, right? Like, I think I need a better vocabulary. And it really, it's really impactful to hear that like, yes, you can. It's okay to have emotions, first of all, right? Everybody has them. It's okay to express them. But to address them, to have language, to be able to communicate that to someone, I never really thought about it because obviously I'm thinking about a hundred other things going on during the day, whether it's taking care of my kids, taking care of my work, whatever it may be, we can't forget about ourselves and having vocabulary to explain kind of what we're feeling seems like there's still a lot of work to be done in terms of us as dads, or at least me as a dad, determine like figuring out what that vocabulary is and starting to integrate that into, into life. So it was, I find that very interesting. I [00:11:00] appreciate you sharing that.
AJ: People are struggling with this like, okay, sounds great. I'll Google a feelings wheel and start coming up with language. I'd also recommend there's some really quality research in the last couple years by Brene Brown. She did a four part docuseries on HBO Max for her book called Atlas of the Heart, so you could read the book, which is a great descriptor of kind of emotions overall and how they get integrated and help with that development of language. Or if reading is not your thing and you would rather watch something, what I really like about that docuseries is that they present film clips to differentiate between different emotions, so you can really see how you feel as you watch it, and if you can kind of recognize what they're talking about on screen. And most of us are much better at spotting it in somebody else than they are in.
Michael: Right.
AJ: And we are in spotting it in ourselves. And so seeing it presented in that way is a really helpful tool that I offer to many of my clients at the beginning of our work in therapy.
Michael: [00:12:00] Interesting. And we'll make sure to link to those resources in our, in our show notes as well.
AJ: Great.
Michael: So, recognizing these emotions and be able to communicate them out is important, but at the same time, a lot of dads often feel overwhelmed by the pressure to, to grow, perform, be present at home, be present at work.
How do you help someone define growth in a way that feels sustainable grounded?
AJ: One, I usually start with slow, slow our roll. Like before we grow we gotta tend to the root system, figure out what is, what happened, why we are the way that we are. And, you know, this will be my only plug for this, but that's a great topic to go start therapy about is just kind of figuring out what is. I'm also a big personal believer that I only focus on growth when I'm moving my body. And [00:13:00] so I am not, when I'm lazy on the couch on a weekend is not the time for me to be thinking about how to accelerate my career or grow my practice even more. And so I've kind of made a commitment to myself that if I'm walking the dogs or exercising, that is a chance where I'm already kind of attuned to growth in another way and then I'll, I'll bring in some something about expansion or a podcast or listen to something that helps me think about expanding even more.
Michael: Yep. Do you feel that by setting up these kind of defined times or defined activities to address some of these emotional needs that helps you kind of create a routine? Or is it just that's what works for you? Or is it like the ex doing exercise or going for a walk that's like, okay, now I know that's my time to put on my, my thinking hat.
AJ: Yeah, I think it's more the latter. I recognize that I'm already [00:14:00] motivated. If I got my sneakers laced up and I'm already moving, that's a chance where i'm probably more in balance than I was before, so that's my indicator to even begin digging into growth and expansion. But if I'm not doing that, I just kinda shut down that little voice that's saying, do more, grow more, expand more, and say like, "not the time, not the place." And, so, I do use a routine. You know, I'm, I'm generally moving my body around the same times, and so I'm listening to some of this growth stuff at the same time as well.
Michael: Got it. That makes sense. So I've seen a lot that anxiety numbers for men are rising, and I know of many dads, myself included, that have suffered from anxiety and it's, it's a tough thing to go through, but it's something that you can, or at least I found that I can manage, right? It takes work, it takes time.
It takes, [00:15:00] you know, a commitment to, to manage it. Are there patterns or triggers that show up most often with dads that you found that do have suffer from anxiety?
AJ: Yes, and we can't overstate it enough, like the numbers are alarming. There are more anxious people now than there are not anxious. And so when you really consider that this is more than a phenomenon. This is a, I think, a paradigmal shift in the way that we live. I think a couple things come to mind.
One is we're witnessing in real time news throughout the globe, which never existed before, and it's hard not to feel anxious when so much data is coming in. So I usually start there with a client who presents with some clinical anxiety about kind of broad existential worry and fear, [00:16:00] and then bring that into your individual life and really figure out like what are you most concerned or worried about and are there other ways, coping strategies that we could deal with those thoughts and feelings as they present themselves.
Michael: Got it. Got it. And are there, is it possible for your clients to kind of come to you and be like, yes, I feel like I'm having anxiety. These are the things that I see. Or is it something that somebody on the outside is like, oh, you're probably suffering from anxiety because I see X, Y, and Z.
AJ: I'd say it's pretty evenly split. If I think about it, I many times it does take the prompt of a spouse or somebody on the outside to say this feels outside of the norm for you, and I think I wanna be conscientious here. There's a, a distinct difference between fear and worry, which we all experience from day to day and clinical anxiety, which is [00:17:00] impacting your social life, your professional life, or your home life in a way that is distracting and taking away time. And that is really the indicator light in my clinical opinion, that it's time to seek some professional help or try to figure out what's going on there. When you realize that you'd rather be doing something or rather be focused on something, but the thought or fear or worry is so strong that you can't, that is where I think we turn a corner into clinical anxiety.
Michael: Got it. That makes sense. And so your doctoral work focuses on psychological wellbeing, if I remember correctly. How do you define psychological wellness in a way that makes sense to dads today who feel overloaded. What does that really mean?
AJ: Yeah. When I began my dissertation, this was the big question, is you can't just say what is psychologically well without [00:18:00] expanding and defining what that actually means. Where I draw from is the University of Pennsylvania's definition, which is used in an acronym called PERMA. That's equal representations of these five components: positive emotions, positive relationships, meaning, and accomplishment. And so when I'm really thinking with a client or even just with a friend or family member about overall wellbeing, I'm kind of scanning those five categories, and I think if you can hit on all five, you're one of the very few lucky people in the world, but generally, I'd say to feel somewhere in balance, you need to have three or four of those elements working in a positive direction or have a plan to make them work in a more positive direction in order to be considered psychologically well using this definition.
Michael: And are any of those five more important than others, [00:19:00] or are they all kind of equally weighted?
AJ: They are equally weighted according to the researchers who developed them. However, they have a lot of overlap and parallels, meaning it might be hard to be engaged with something if you have a negative relationship with the person in which you wanna engage with those activities with. So, oftentimes you might need to focus on one of those elements first, and then by focusing on it and, and confronting it, maybe other elements come in into balance in a way that you wouldn't have expected or without dedicated work on that specific secondary element.
Michael: Okay, so when someone feels like they've lost their sense of self in work, parenting, or maybe they're in survival mode, where do you start to help them kind of rebuild a clear identity?
AJ: I think it's important to start with figuring out which silo of [00:20:00] identity is the most impacted. Most of us are balancing three or four primary identities all at once, right? A family life, a professional life, a social life and all of those have their own identity characteristics, so I'd probably start with figuring out which one's the most impacted negatively. And the other thing I'd say is putting some action to it, right? We can talk all day long in therapy about how I'm feeling and what it might be, but, to me, what I try to do with my clients and with myself is design some kind of challenge to explore this and, and see if I can make some difference. So, and I'm not talking about some big fundamental challenge, but if I'm having trouble with meaning, for instance, then I might really focus on like, do is my professional identity feeling fulfilled right now?
Do I feel like I'm actually helping the clients and patients that come to me? And if that's not the case, then [00:21:00] I might design a plan to do an additional training or try a different approach with a particular client to see if that gets us unstuck. So, I think it's really important to frame out what we're working on and then develop some tangible action-oriented steps to see if we can make a difference on it.
Michael: Sure. And you're saying that those tangible action-oriented steps should be, don't necessarily have to be these grand gestures or grand actions. You can really start small and kind of build along the way. Am I understanding that correctly?
AJ: Yes, please do that because I think sometimes this is, this is the challenge, right? If the challenge itself is too large, then you're not gonna attempt it or the first roadblock you experience with it, you're not gonna persist. And so I'm a big believer in staircase, staircasing out goals, objectives, action orientation and taking into consideration your real life, too.[00:22:00]
Michael: Right.
AJ: You don't have, maybe you don't have time to take an additional training class right now because it's, the holidays are upon us or whatever is going on in your life. And so really small nibbles to see if they're making ,a a difference. And then you can take larger bites as you make the positive progress that you're hoping for.
Michael: Yep. Got it. Yeah, that makes sense. One step at a time and just keep putting one foot in front of the other and you'll continue to make progress. But if you just stand there and just let it all fall, then you're not actually moving forward. You're just staying where you're staying in place, which is not where you wanna be if you're, you feel like you're losing yourself in whatever aspect of your life you're in.
AJ: Exactly. Exactly.
Michael: Makes sense. So I wanna shift this just a little bit to the kind of the career front for dads and for dads who are navigating career uncertainty. You know, whether it's economic times [00:23:00] or there's this rapid technological change we're going through right now, particularly with AI. How do you help them find a healthier relationship with confidence?
AJ: Hmm Hmm. It's an excellent question because what I'm being confronted with over and over again is a lack of confidence. I, I think that actually links back to what we were talking about with anxiety in some ways too, is with all this data, with all this information, with so much at our disposal, I think that it's eroded confidence more than helped people or been a tool to expand upon it and I'd also say like, where I generally start would be at home. If we need to work on just generalized confidence,
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: is there something that you can do that you wanted to do with one of your kids, right? Can you get down on the floor and stay in the tea party with your daughter for 45 minutes or so, or do you feel that [00:24:00] itch the second that it starts to feel weird or strange, or she asks you to say or do something that you don't wanna do, and I think kids are a great conduit for this because they're gonna always make us feel more confident if we engage with them on a full level. So I think dads can often start there. Get your house in order is kind of my big statement in therapy. Like, get, be confident about that. Is everybody flowing together in the way that you hope they would?
Are the relationships as strong as you hope that they would be? And then, let's, once that house is in order, I think then we can expand to professional pursuits, career shifts, all of these other categories that we're talking about.
Michael: Got it. Yeah. I love that. I like that you can, you're making the steps attainable by starting at home, right?
AJ: Mm-hmm.
Michael: You can't necessarily, you can't control everything, right? And [00:25:00] just trying to make home a little bit better for yourself and for your family can give you a little bit more confidence as you address what's going on in your work life or your social life or whatever else you, you may be doing with your life, your volunteer life, whatever it might be.
And you can always address what's going on at home. That is one thing where whether you're the parent or even the child, like you have some say in what happens in the house and to make it attainable, but also, it's also a relationship builder with your own family too, right? Like you're putting in a little bit extra effort now at home to, and it, yes, it's gonna help build your confidence, but it's also gonna strengthen your relationships, I think.
Right? Which then will, I assume, help build your confidence further, so when you do go back to, you're, go back into work mode, you are, you have [00:26:00] a little bit more confidence to address whatever concerns that you, you have at work. So, like how that's just like a, a great first step because it's, it is attainable, right?
It's not like, oh, you need to study these seven things and then take this test and figure out like, can you do this? Can you not? No, you could do that, right? You do it every day. It's just a matter of can you make it a little bit better? Can you strengthen that? Can you give yourself a little bit more confidence in the house?
That confidence will carry over elsewhere, or at least show you that yes, you could do this at home, you could probably do it elsewhere too.
AJ: Yes. And I think you nailed it on the head when you, you talked about control. Cause I think confidence and control often work in tandem with one another. When we feel out of control,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: our confidence diminishes in some ways. And where else do you get to practice being the CEO and, pretty much, you know, you might have a co-CEO in your spouse, but
Michael: Right.
AJ: pretty much get to make the decisions that you wanna make and then get to see how those [00:27:00] are impacted before you consider doing that in the workplace or for your own business or whatever it might be.
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: You want to make sure that in areas where you do have more control than others, that you run it in the way that you want it to
Michael: Right.
AJ: because you're gonna need the, all those skills when, when control is more limited
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: in work or business.
Michael: Right. So let's, let's flip the script on this a little bit in that we talk about control. You work often times with recovering perfectionists.
People pleasers, people that have a different type of control. How do those traits show up uniquely for dads trying to succeed at work and at home?
AJ: So I think the first thing in, in recognizing perfectionism, people pleasing. These are all what I would consider psychological defenses. These are your system's way through life [00:28:00] of trying to keep you safe. And so if we want to confront any of them or other defenses such as abandonment or other things that you're probably ultra familiar with, we have to recognize the source. Where did that come about? Where did you even get the idea that being really available to somebody else is a way of being chosen.
And is that really how you wanna be chosen? I think we have to really question the premise and men often struggle with this exercise because we don't really wanna go backwards. We just want to fix what currently is and so a lot of my work, as you can imagine, is convincing people that the past matters a whole lot. Not to blame or for any other reason, but just to simply understand because you have to recognize that you are being defensive by people pleasing or whatever else you are [00:29:00] doing
Michael: sure.
AJ: in an effort to try to keep yourself safe, and when you recognize that there's other ways that you can do that, that are probably healthier, more comprehensive for you, that's where we can begin to make a difference there.
Michael: That makes sense. That's really interesting that taking a look back at the past. I, I tend to, I think, at least for me, and I think there's probably some other dads out there that we're always looking forward, right? Like, what comes next, right? But sometimes some of our, maybe, not great habits or some of our tendencies clearly come from someone or something in the past that kind of programmed us to be like, okay, this is how you handle this thing.
And never, I don't think enough about looking back when oftentimes I, I tend to focus on just looking forward, but it makes sense to look back, to figure out. To get the reasoning why you're doing the, the behavior so that you [00:30:00] can address that behavior, right?
AJ: Yes. I also think many people assume this is gonna be some big epiphany. You're gonna unlock some trauma history that you're not gonna know what to do with. Many times I'm hearing something like my very first boss was really hard on me,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: and so ever since then I've just tried to stay ahead of whatever "boss" wants, right?
Michael: Yeah.
AJ: And that's totally understandable. There's no big trauma to unpack there, but just understanding, oh, right, the second that I started working, I had somebody who was really diligent about, about picking my work apart and wanted me to do an excellent job, and so I've just, just decided that this defense is gonna work for me. But again, like we were talking about with other emotions and elements of the past. Generally these are little blips of something that happened that once you kind of speak it into existence, you can be like, oh yeah, like not every boss since then has been like [00:31:00] that.
Michael: Right.
AJ: Many bosses actually don't like my over communication or whatever it might be, and, and that might fix it all on its own by just recognizing that initial trigger point.
Michael: Yeah, that's a great point. You said speaking into existence kind of makes me think about what you said earlier when it came to the wheel of emotions and just having that vocabulary. It's almost in a way having a vocabulary for why you do the things that you are doing that maybe you don't want to continue to do, right? It's finding what is it that caused that? Like, what are the words that help you identify what that is? So you'd be like, okay, it was my, the way I wanted, my boss wanted things. But like you said, your current boss might not have that same demand or even appreciate that kind of work. It might actually work to the negative.
So it's like finding out why you were doing that so that you can identify it. So you can be like, okay, now I'm cognizant of it. Now, I can shift how I address that going forward.
AJ: Exactly. [00:32:00] Exactly.
Michael: It's interesting how the emotion, the same thing you do with emotions, is this kind of the same thing you're doing here with figuring out like why you do some of the things that you do.
It's, I've never made that connection before. It's fascinating.
AJ: Yes. And I think it demystifies this idea that like therapy or unpacking even on our own our backgrounds is gonna be some labor intensive process, and for many people it is because they have had those lived experiences. But for the vast majority of people that I work with, we're generally talking about little blips and moments in sixth period of tenth grade that just.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: I, I forgot the assignment, and ever since then, I promised myself I never miss an assignment again. And as soon as the person says it with the vocabulary, you can almost see in the therapy room just the, oh my gosh, this is, this is so much simpler than what I was expecting.
Michael: That's awesome. I [00:33:00] love that. All right, I wanna move on along to contacting the other end of this spectrum, which is dads who wanna continue to grow, but maybe they feel like they've hit a ceiling and they've kind of, now they feel stuck, like they've accomplished a lot, but they wanna accomplish more, but they don't know what, what to do next.
How do you, what's the first question you ask them to get unstuck, or how do you help them identify what might be holding them back?
AJ: I think my very first question would be, describe the top floor before you broke the ceiling. What was going on in that moment that made you think that was kind of the top floor or the ending? Right? And I think what I often hear in response to something like that was, I hit the salary amount that I wanted to make, or I received the job title that I've been hoping for since I [00:34:00] graduated from college and then we have some actual elements to begin unpacking and figuring out. Okay, so if we could go back in and rewrite the story and come up with a secondary goal for that version of you, what else is in the suitcase of ideas and possibilities for you? What do you actually think would be meaningful? I often ask people also, when they're contemplating this at the beginning, what do people that love you tell you? If you sit back and listen at a holiday party or something like that, people are always telling people what they see positive in them.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: Right? When I first got introduced to you, I told you you have a voice for radio, like you're doing what you're supposed to be doing,
Michael: Yep.
AJ: right? Not only do I think that that helps build confidence for many people, but I think it also presents this idea that there are no ceilings, right?
Like, life is an infinite [00:35:00] possibility, and you can do whatever it is that your heart desires. You just gotta find the way to do it and then actually devise the plan, but focus on your strengths. Focus on what the people that love you are telling you about yourself and, and see if that branches off into something that's a good idea for you.
Michael: That's awesome. That, that's so smart to not just focus on the positives, but think about how other people perceive your positive strengths so that you can use that to kind of now re-identify what your, what your new goals are. I, I could see how that would help get unstuck very quickly.
AJ: Yes, yes.
Michael: You see men now who want to go deeper, not just talk about the, the surface problems. I know you said a lot of your clients, you know, it's not necessarily they're coming to you because they've had some traumatic past that they, where there's a lot of unpacking to do, but sometimes, [00:36:00] you know, there's somewhere in between that, like the surface level stuff and the deep level issues.
What helps a dad shift from kind of coping to genuine transformation if they're kind of in between?
AJ: I think this is where most of us are. And I wanna just say that first, which is, I think most of us reside somewhere in the middle.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: And maybe the first, very first thing I might offer is, do you recognize that you're in the majority? Like you're not far behind and you're not far ahead. You're, you're with me
Michael: Yep.
AJ: and many others like us.
And just kind of normalize that experience. And then I would also explain the difference between thriving and coping. I think this is a big, talking about that feelings wheel and kind of digging in a little bit.
Michael: Yep.
AJ: Coping is like getting through,
Michael: Yeah,
AJ: taking an Advil to tame the headache that you have.
Michael: Sure.
AJ: Thriving is eating healthy, sleeping well, doing [00:37:00] all of these things to ward off as frequent of headaches as you're getting. And once we kind of establish where we are between coping and thriving, then we can begin to develop some actual tangible skills to, to move you to the thriving category, which is what we all want at the end of the day, I think.
Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. All right, one more question before we go to the speed round. If a dad is, a dad is listening now feels anxious or overloaded, or just unsure of what to do next, what's one thing they can start doing now that can help them start moving toward feeling psychologically well again?
AJ: Mm-hmm. I think not just dad but dads, but men in general where I generally point people is start with your anger.
Michael: Even
AJ: if you have a great handle on your anger, explore it as its own entity and see what comes up. Because if we can [00:38:00] generally tackle anger as an emotion, then the other emotions that are gonna come up or maybe branch off from there are gonna come into view in a, in a way.
And I also think men who can kind of better manage their anger one day from the day previous see the benefit of doing this work more deeply, right? So anger is an emotion that we're all familiar with, even if we're, even if we're running a masterclass on handling our anger, which I'm not, and many of the men that I know are not doing,
Michael: Right.
AJ: but even if they were, there's still room to learn there
Michael: and,
AJ: and talking about like coping versus thriving, I would say thriving with anger is not letting the temper rule, letting the per the person rule. And so this is, this is the emotion that I generally start with, with most men, unless there's some other pressing issue to, to get [00:39:00] started with.
Michael: Sure, sure. Makes sense. All right. I wanna change things up. We're gonna do the speed round, which is a bunch of questions about nothing at all, but everything in the world depends on this. So this is, this is important. But no, it's really just fun. Excited to see where you go with these questions. So, five quick questions. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?
AJ: My daughter's a freshman in high school, so what first comes to mind is two shows: Doc McStuffins and Sofia the First
Michael: yes.
AJ: For the two songs that played for five or ten years in my house on repeat over and over again. And so those are the first two that I think of.
Michael: Yeah. My daughter is a freshman in high school as well, and I forgot about Sofia the First, but, my goodness. There were many years of the daily Sofia the First song. Doc McStuffins does not get out of my head. I will always sing the Doc McStuffins theme song. That [00:40:00] is, they, they won that jingle
AJ: Yes,
Michael: for sure.
AJ: It was really good.
What shows even are there, right? Like I'm thinking I probably watched a thousand of each of those shows, so I've heard the songs 2000 times collectively.
Michael: Right. Exactly. Exactly. There's so, there were so many episodes and even if there weren't, it just seemed like there were. What was your very first job?
AJ: My very first job was a sandwich artist at Subway.
Michael: Oh, wow.
AJ: And I worked there for about two weeks and then I got a second job in Food Avenue in Target, which younger people watching don't even know what Food Avenue is. There's been a Starbucks inside of most targets for many years now. But back then we used to pop popcorn and walk it around the store and sell it to people, and I loved it. It was so fun.
Michael: That's awesome. Very cool. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?
AJ: Oof. Neither. [00:41:00] I'd say the toddler-size T-Rex only cause I feel like I might have a shot at some level of control there, but they're both uncomfortable to contemplate.
Michael: For sure, for sure. Right. I do appreciate the honesty upfront of neither would be the preferable answer. I think that's where most of us would go. Few will admit.
AJ: Yes, yes.
Michael: What's your go-to karaoke song?
AJ: Oh, this is a good one because I have to reveal my one and only party trick by giving you the answer, which is, I do a mean This is How We Do It by Montell Jordan karaoke.
Michael: Oh, wow.
AJ: And for anybody listening, if you want, if you, if you don't feel like you're a very good singer, which I'm not, but you wanna get the crowd going and, and have a blast, do that song and see what happens.
Most, most people react positively to that song on [00:42:00] karaoke.
Michael: Interesting. Interesting. That's great. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?
AJ: So I carry a magic wand in my bag for work because I do a kind of therapy called EMDR: eye movement, desensitization, and reprocessing, which requires it. So, anytime I'm cleaning out my bag and the wand pops out, if there's anybody around, they're like, "what's that about?" But it's, it's my magic wand that I wave in front of my clients for that particular type of work.
Michael: Nice. Very cool.
AJ: Yeah.
Michael: I appreciate you answering those speed round questions. Before we wrap up, I wanna give you space to share your work with anyone who wants to go deeper. Where can people find you and learn more about your practice, your team, the work you're doing?
AJ: Yeah, they can find out all of the information about my practice AJrichtherapy.com and they can always email me too at aj@ajrichtherapy.com.
Michael: Excellent. We'll put all that in the show [00:43:00] notes as well. AJ, thank you so much for this conversation. You brought so much clarity and honesty and honestly, just a lot of steady guidance to topics that I know so many dads are wrestling with right now, myself included. Your work, your research, your lived experience, the, I think that gives men and dads in particular hope that change is possible, right? Like you gave us very actionable ideas, very approachable, attainable concepts to work with. So I appreciate you joining the Gap to Gig community today. Thank you for taking the time to, to chat with me. And finally, if you're a dad listening to this and trying to figure out what comes next, maybe you're in between jobs, starting something new, or just looking for more meaning in your work, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. And if you took something valuable from this episode, send it to a dad you think could also benefit. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs, and this is Gap to Gig, where you're building work that fits your life, not the other way around. [00:44:00]