Alex Tuck on Timeboxing Your Way to Meaningful Work and Present Fatherhood

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Alex: I hope that my kids see that work is a really important part of my life because it's the thing that we're gonna do more of than maybe like, sleep might be a little bit more, but like, it's the thing we're gonna do most of in our entire lives. And it's really important to have meaningful work to be able to, to move things forward, but also just blocking the time to take care of myself and to build meaningful relationships with the people around me, too, and making sure that they understand that it's, it's an important part of my life, but it's not my life. Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention.

Michael: I'm your host, Michael Jacobs and today's guest, someone who proves you can build a thriving consulting firm without losing the parts of life that matter [00:01:00] most. Alex Tuck is the founder managing principle of Tuck Consulting Group, a remote first project management firm built around a simple belief: work should fit into life, not the other way around.

Alex runs his company from a farm in Vermont where he and his wife are raising four children. He leads a team that values flexibility, diverse perspectives, and sensible balance, and he models that balance himself by timeboxing, both work and personal time, blocking his calendar for family commitments, workouts, and rest just as intentionally as he blocks it out for clients. Alex, welcome to the show. I'm really excited to have you here today.

Alex: Michael, thank you so much for having this show and for having me on it. I really think it's gonna be a great resource for dads.

Michael: I appreciate that. So, to get us started, I want to go right to the heart of your philosophy. You've said that your calendar is blocked for both personal and professional time and that the structure is what allows everything else to, to work. So, I wanna begin there. How did timeboxing become such a core part of your approach to balancing work and fatherhood, and what does that kind of look like in your daily life?

Alex: I'm probably [00:02:00] like a similar to many entrepreneurs out there like constantly trying to get better and better and feeling like I'm not quite there yet. And, so, we've all tried every single system out there at some point or another, and then I came across an article, I think I was reading an article in like Harvard Business Review or some, some place, like some place where they had this concept of timeboxing, and it really resonated with me. So, I just started like, digging in, digging in, digging in, and, and started doing it. I've been doing it for, you know, five, six years now, and I'm constantly, like, tinkering with it a little bit, but it's never perfect, right? And, so like, I'm constantly, like, improving upon it.

And so, you know, just being, being creative with like, how, how I can block my time and get the most value out of the limited amounts of time that we have. I've been working on it for a really long time. So...

Michael: Can you kind of just walk me through like, what does a block of time for you represent? [00:03:00] Like what does a, a day of time blocking or a week of time blocking kind of look like?

Alex: Oh my goodness. So, I'll talk about it professionally first, and then we can talk about personal stuff. So, professionally we run our entire company leveraging quarterly objectives and key results, OKRs. And so those OKRs this, quarter, we have five OKRs across our entire operations. Five most important things that objectives that we want to achieve across our company. Then we break those objectives down into key results. Like very, you know, think of smart goals, right? So there's smart make three, four smart goals underneath those objectives that are really gonna move the needle with the things that matter most to us, whether it's marketing, sales, service delivery, any of those things.

Michael: Right.

Alex: We as a team decide that, hey, these are the handful of things that we're really gonna focus on. And then, below that, we have project plans for each one of those KRs, right? And so it's [00:04:00] all decomposition, right? And any project manager that's listening to this is gonna, or anyone that's heard about project management knows that about this decomposition. But then, you know, once you have those tasks underneath, you have to actually execute those tasks. And so those are the most important things for our company, right? Those aren't the table stakes things like you have to send your invoices, you have to do the things, you know, every single day. But we take those KRs and then they each get like an hour-long block, 90-minute block. 30-minute block, depending on how much the task is, is expected to take. In my entire calendar, it's pretty, I mean, like my friends joke with me about it 'cause it's color coded, and it's filled from top to bottom. It's not meetings, it's just stuff. And, you know, right after this, you know, 50 minutes from now, I'm gonna hop off, and go on my one-hour run block, right, which, you know, involves 10 minutes of getting ready, going inside the house and getting ready, and then doing the run and then coming out of it. So, [00:05:00] that, that like paints a little bit of a picture about what happens there. And then we do the same thing on our personal calendars as well, my wife and I. So...

Michael: So, each of those blocks is very intentional, right? Like, you are, that block of time, that period of time is you are focused on that particular action that you need to take. So, whether that's...

Alex: Ruthlessly focused on it. So, you know, the thing I learned most about this and anything else is you have to be kind to yourself, right? Because if you're on a roll and you have a time block that's 60 minutes, and you only need like 10 or 15 more minutes to get that thing done done. Then, you might look at what's coming up next and maybe slide that for 30 minutes or move it to tomorrow.

So it's not that it's like rigid, it's just that it's, it's what's, it's what you've committed to doing. And, so, being very intentional about how long you think things are gonna take and really trying to complete it, even within less time [00:06:00] of that, then you get bonus time. Like I always recommend to people, give yourself more time than you think you need, and then, if you get it done earlier, which most of us probably won't even get it done earlier, but if we do get it done earlier, you get bonus time.

Michael: Right.

Alex: Get to take a little walk, you know, grab some food, say hi to your kids, do whatever it is.

Michael: Right.

Alex: So.

Michael: Love that. That's awesome.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: And within those blocks, like you are, it allows you to focus more because you've broken it down, you've broken that task down into exactly what you have to focus on then.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: Right. So.

Alex: Yeah, and I, it feels so good. Like when I look at my calendar for the day, and I, at, at the end of the day, and I'm like, alright, I said I was gonna do all these things, and I actually achieved all those things, or like, I, I accomplished certain feats within that, those tasks, I'm really happy. And that includes going downstairs for 30 minutes to like, grab lunch and like chat with whatever kid's home or chat with my wife. That includes getting a run in, right? [00:07:00] Transition times, all those things. They all really matter, and it's rare that I get it all perfect, right? But when I have those days, it feels so good, right? And, and then you see actual results. Like, you actually start seeing like, okay, your OKRs are moving forward and you know, the blog is, is moving forward, or whatever it is

Michael: Yep.

Alex: That you're working on.

Michael: I love that. That's, it's a great reminder that we also need to feel like what we're doing means something, and to do that, you have to feel that sense of accomplishment, right? And, like, this is kinda like a hyperfocused way to get to that point of when things do go right and you, you get through your time block and you've accomplished the, the goals of those time blocks were set up to do, you do get that sense of accomplishment. That does feel good. That's a good way to take care of yourself almost, right?

Alex: Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, on a personal level, we do the same thing, so, everything goes on the calendar. Like my, my biggest accomplishment, personal accomplishment of my life [00:08:00] is, is convincing Isabelle, my wife, to get a joint Google Calendar and getting us both to adopt it because, it's changed our, it's changed the way that we can communicate and collaborate together. You know, if it's not on the calendar, it doesn't exist for us, right?

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: And, so, you know, the obvious things like basketball practice, you know, whatever, soccer, those things go on the calendar. Our personal stuff, like I wanna get a long run in on Sunday, like that goes on the calendar, and we decide together, you know, what that looks like. But then there's the other things that are less obvious, like, you know, let's say I wanna spend 15 minutes a day reading with each of my kids, right? That's not, I have four kids, right? That's not reasonable to try to achieve every single day. How do we split that up across the entire week, right? And, so, if [00:09:00] it does, if it's on the calendar, we actually do it, or we at least know that it's intentional that we want to do that.

And if we have to move it for some reason, we'll move it. So, it's just a great visual for how to do it. I'll say one more thing before I, I, I can ramble for a while, but I, I, I run a project management consulting firm. I'm a project manager, certified, all that stuff. I'm not a naturally organized person, so if anyone out there thinks that they just, it just doesn't resonate, this kind of timeboxing doesn't resonate with them, I'll tell you that as an, as a very disorganized person, naturally, 'cause I like to scatter, and most entrepreneurs are like that, I have to have this structure 'cause then I can't, you know, otherwise I can't achieve the things that I wanna achieve.

Michael: Right. That's a great point. That

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: it's a practical system for you, right? Because even though you may not consider yourself to be the most organized, diligent person, this system is something that you can implement. It doesn't, it doesn't take you [00:10:00] all day to block your time, I presume, right? It's, you can do it pretty quickly once you've broken down those tasks into what you want to accomplish for that day, and it works for you at end of day.

So, like, time blocking may work for me, too. Maybe mine just lo-, looks a little bit different. It has to be something that I can still, it's manageable for me. It's not

Alex: That's right.

Michael: gonna bring an overwhelm. Yeah.

Alex: Yeah, I have, I have colleagues that really, you know, they live with ADHD, and like, so it's really hard for them to context switch, right? And so timeboxing looks very different for them than it does for me. Like, I can spend 50 minutes on a task, give myself an hour, and then shift gears, and go right to the next thing, right? That's not a challenge for me. So that timebox might look a little different. They might spend two hours on a, a task or maybe they'll only tackle like three things in the entire day. And, and, and they timebox it that way. And they give themselves breaks to get lunch, do physical activity, right, so that the, the context switch is, is less.

Michael: [00:11:00] That's a really interesting point.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: Appreciate you bringing that up. So, let's talk about your, your firm a little bit. Most consulting firms center their culture on profit, utilization, and things of that nature. You intentionally built yours around flexibility and family. What pushed you in that direction?

Alex: I'll say something. We don't have a single metric tied to revenue or profitability that we track. We are profitable, and we have great revenue growth, but, but we don't have, none, none of our metrics are focused on that. And so I, I started my company 13 years ago. I, so my, my long story sort of short is that I worked in finance, made a bunch of money, helped rich people get rich, and realized that was not my calling in life. And so I, so I switched and I, I, I started a [00:12:00] microlending nonprofit that does work in Central America and took all the money that I made and started this thing and worked for free for four years and then was like, alright, I need to come back and make money again.

Got the nonprofit to a place where it was sustainable and run by itself in Central America, and then I came back and started this firm. And I pitched myself on all these Obamacare contracts until I ended up landing on one here in Vermont. And, so, I wasn't really intentional with how I started the company.

I just knew that like I had this talent, and I, I wanted to be sort of in control of what I was doing. So, started this company. And then, along the way, I actually got hired by a few different firms. I was an independent consultant, but then I got hired by some firms and joined some of these big management consulting firms, and they were awesome. Like, I loved the people that I worked with. I thought the ability to climb the ladder, there was always great opportunity there. There's opportunity to make enough money to support my family, [00:13:00] but everything was focused on revenue, everything was focused on growth, everything was focused on that. And I even went to a midsize consulting firm and had the same, like I said, I was never going to work for another management consulting firm. Then there I went and did it, and I thought it was gonna be different, and it wasn't any different. And, so,

Michael: Right.

Alex: six years ago, I sort of dusted off my company, relaunched, and, and I wanted to start, I wanted to intentionally build a company that was focused on not just utilization targets, not on revenue, not on any of that stuff, not on growth. I want it to be focused on adding value for our customers, right? Like, so, we look at ourselves as enablers for furthering the mission and vision of our clients. So, our clients have to be focused on having a net positive impact on the world, right?

And, so, like we look at ourselves as enablers to help these organizations achieve that. So, that was, that was one of the things that we knew was important. But then also we wanted to take [00:14:00] care of our staff. And we actually have a really interesting model where we have very few employees. It's almost all independent consultants because we value the, the, the flexibility that that brought to all of our customer or all of our consultants. And, so, we have folks, dads and moms, that live in parts of the country that there is not a lot of economic opportunity. And they might be caregivers for their parents. They might be caregivers for a kid. They might be caregivers for whomever. They can only work 20 hours a week, and they can do that here, right? So, long answer to your, to your question, but that, that was the main reason, was like we wanted to create a different management consulting model that wasn't focused purely on utilization and, and revenue growth.

Michael: That's awesome. I love that. How has living on a farm shaped your rhythms and routines and approach to all of this of, you know, finding that, that right balance at work?

Alex: Well, I, I am looking outside right now and I, I see my two chicken coops over there, [00:15:00] and I'm looking at about 25 inches of snow out in my field. And, this morning, I woke up, my wife and I have this, we each get an hour every single day where we're, where we each watch a, watch a kid or two. And, and the other person gets to go off and do their thing.

And in the mornings we have 15 minutes where each of us, like, she goes and does chores and like spends time with the animals. And like I did a snowshoe this morning, right? So, just walked around my property and just looked at how amazing everything is. And sometimes if I have enough time, I'll just take a loop around the, the property, and it's just so different. Like, it's just like so fun to be so close to nature that way, even though I'm working with people all across the country working on tech, so...

Michael: Right. That sounds awesome. Even, I mean, that's a way to enjoy snow, right? Like, you're not,

Alex: That's right.

Michael: yeah, you can just go outside, throw on some snow shoes and kind of go explore. That's awesome.

Alex: That's right. And I'll, I will, I'll say this, like, it's, the [00:16:00] funny thing is my wife and I sort of flipped a, a, a double-headed coin about where we were gonna live. I'm from Virginia, and she's from Vermont. And then we decided on Vermont. And we're really close to our family, and we have cousins everywhere and it's awesome, like love living in Vermont, but I was like, all right, well my career's over, right?

Like, what am I gonna do up here? Like, I'm gonna work on a maple sugaring farm or something. You know,

Michael: Right.

Alex: But then, you know, we created this opportunity, like remote work became like a pillar of our, of, of how we operate here in the United States. And, and it was, it's the perfect place. And now I get both. I get to run a company and live in a really amazing place.

Michael: That's so cool. I love that. So, what do you think dads in general get wrong when they assume they, they need to sacrifice everything to build a successful business? You clearly are able to have time for yourself, have time for your family, and have time to build this business that [00:17:00] is serving a purpose, right? And it's, it's meaningful work to you. What do you think we get wrong when trying to assume we have to put all of our energy into one thing or just into our work or just into our home?

Alex: Yeah, I mean, our culture is, I think we're finally like, honestly, I think we're learning from Gen Zers and, and the Alphas that, work isn't everything, right, and I think that something that's unique to fathers in general, and it's not every single person and not, don't want a gender stereotype at all here, but there's this propensity to feel like you have to be the provider and the caregiver. And so, we look at the, our value, like as a society, we look at males as, you know, the ones that need to generate revenue, and you need to give as much effort as you can [00:18:00] into work 'cause that's how we generate revenue, right? I think that's culturally, you know, it's a gross generalization, but that, I think that's sort of where a lot of dads get that, that feeling.

You know, think that what I've learned, over time, is that the more time that I spend, going on runs, doing ho-, reading books, doing my own hobbies, taking care of myself.

Michael: Yep.

Alex: And same thing with my partner. She is able to take that time, take care of herself. That makes us better parents, and that honestly, that makes us better leaders in companies. That makes us better service providers to our clients.

Like all, all of the above, right? But it's scary to do that. And, you know, sometimes I think your pricing might be wrong. The market might not be there for exactly the service that you're trying to provide, and so there might need to be some pushing and pulling with [00:19:00] like how you can achieve that, but, you know, I think the more that you can be intentional about the time that you give to yourself the higher quality you're gonna have with the outputs that you're creating at work.

Michael: Yeah, I couldn't agree with you more. I, you know, it's, it's easy to focus on what you need to get done each day, right? It's easy to focus on your job. It's easy to, it can be easy to focus on your family, like they're there, they're present, and you wanna be present for them. And it's so easy to be like, yeah, we'll go play one more game, or we'll go do one more thing together.

Alex: Yep.

Michael: But you can't do either of those if you don't take care of yourself. Because if you don't take care of yourself, you're not gonna be around to, to do that and take care of yourself is more than just the physical exercise. Yeah, we need to exercise, and everyone should do it, but you also have to take care of yourself mentally and emotionally and find ways to recharge yourself.

And sometimes that is with family, sometimes it's not. Sometimes you just need time for yourself, depending on, you know, how [00:20:00] introverted or extroverted you may be. So, I love how you emphasize the importance of taking care of yourself because it's so easy, I found, at least for me as a dad, it was very easy, especially early on in, like, I'll worry about myself later. I'll get to that, right? It's so easy to focus on what's in front of you. And unless you're standing in front of a mirror, what's in front of you is usually your work or your family or whatever other commitments that you have that you have to keep, right? But we can't be there in the long run for those things if we don't take care of ourselves, too. So,

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: I love how you, your focus on that is so, it's so important and so valuable to not just yourself, but those you care about most, right? Because they want you to be there. They want you to be around. They need you there, and it's, if you can't take care of yourself, you can't be there when they need you, when they want you.

Alex: Yeah.

I think, you know, that brings up a really interesting point that like I've, [00:21:00] I still struggle with it, too, but we live with such guilt, right? Like we're such guilt-focused society, right? And, I do, I feel guilty, like when my kid's like "dad, I wanna play another game of, you know, whatever, you know, zoo, zoo, whatever the seek and find thing."

I, I, I wanna play with him like I want to, but then I'm like, dude, you gotta go to school and I need to go to work. Like, we need to do this thing, right? And so this guilt sets in, but then you have to realize that like, okay, there is a limit to everything. There's a cost of every single decision that we make, right?

And he's gonna be better off getting ready for school. I'm gonna be better off getting ready for work and, and we can play it again later, right? So.

Michael: Yeah, it's, you know, I think what's so important about that is that you're modeling that expectation for them, right, of like the you, we can't just play the same matching game all [00:22:00] day, every day. We have other responsibilities, other things in order for us to be happy and successful and healthy. And you can't just do whatever you want whenever you want.

There are limitations that, but at the same time, it's equally important to find time to do those things, right? To play those games with your kids. To read with them. To, to share your interests with them and to hear what is interesting to them, right? You have to, you have to find that right balance. And for everybody it's different.

And every day is different, but what you, like, you could choose to, yeah, you know what, you're not gonna go to school today. We're just gonna stay home and play games. What lesson are you teaching your kids at that point?

Alex: Right.

Michael: Maybe do it once, and it's fun and it's like a core memory and it's, it's cool and everything, but you can't do that on a daily basis.

But on the flip side of that, you also probably can't be working 20 hours a day or, you know, 15 hours a day, seven days a week. And if that's the behavior you're demonstrating to your kids, is that the right, is that what you [00:23:00] want them to model as they get older, right? So, it's important to, to think of it of more than just like, yeah, there's a more of a long-term outlook I, I think is what I'm trying to say, of just, you have to demonstrate what you want to, or you hope they eventually can pick up. And that means, yeah, work is important. So is being home. So is doing the chores. So are, you know, the things that are important to you and taking time for yourself as well. Because you don't want them to grow up to be un-, have unhealthy habits of like, oh yeah, I should just be working. I shouldn't be doing anything else ever. And I should neglect the people that are important to me. So remote work can kind of blur a lot of lines, right? How do you, especially when you're doing it yourself and you're at home and, you know, you've got the kids wanting to, you know, play a game with you or they need help with something or some chore needs to get done.

How do you keep presence at home from turning into distraction? And how do you keep your [00:24:00] work from creeping into family time?

Alex: I mean, if, if anyone has a perfect answer to this, like, I wanna hear it. But, let's see, there's a couple of things that I have. I'm, I'm very fortunate that I have a separate space, right? So, when I go to work it's better. It's great for me, too. Like, I mean, you know, they talk about when you work remotely, you lose that commuter-like downtime for finishing up the, for finishing up your day where you get to just decompress.

So, I'm fortunate, I have to go outside, walk through my 18 inches of snow, get hit with, get hit with the sub-zero temperatures and, and go to work and vice versa. So, you know, not everyone's as fortunate as I am to be able to do that, but just having a separate space in the house is really, really effective for being able to turn on and turn off work.

And, and so my office is up there, up [00:25:00] here, and then, the other thing that I'm really more intentional about, I'm not perfect at it, but I, I leave my phone in another room. I have this like charging room, like it's where, you know, cat has her food and like all this stuff, and then there's, you know, it's just more of a storage room, and I go put my phone in there and it's so unpleasant to like walk all the way back there and go into there, anyway, that, that, it's like my, my work's stuck back there in the corner. And, so I have to be really intentional about like going and grabbing that phone and, and being re-engaged. But I really, my wife and I really try to like not use our phones at all in front of our kids.

We are not successful at that at all, as much as we want to be, but I think that that real intentional action to, to separate the work from your, your personal space is really [00:26:00] important. The other tip that I would just say is like, I, I have modes, different focus modes and stuff that turn on at different points of the day. So, basically 6:00 AM to 7:30 AM and 6:00 PM to 7:30 PM, like all my work apps block, so like I can't even get into 'em or get a notification if I want to. So.

Michael: Interesting. So you, you kind of, you know, you said you have these different modes or different times of the day that are specific for certain things, but you have four young kids and sometimes that can feel overwhelming, right? There are times that, that it's just so much going on. How do you adapt your work rhythms then when family life becomes more demanding?

Alex: Oh, yeah, interesting. So, again, it goes back to timeboxing, right? So, we, it's hard. My wife and I, like, we have really long talks about this. It's like my kids my, my wife coaches our Nordic ski program. So she coaches kids [00:27:00] here. And so like my 6-year-old, my 8-year-old, my 10-year-old all ski from 3:45 to 5:15 on Tuesdays and Thursdays, right? Like, what does that do to your workday, right? Means your, means your workday's done before three o'clock. You know, but you block that time and then you intentionally, like I, I come back up to my office, and I work after if I need to, but it's very intentional. Like we, every single, we go day by day and say, all right, you know, this is how we handle this particular challenge. Kids get sick. You know, it's like, alright, like who's gonna take what shift where? I'm lucky my wife's home with the kids. She runs the nonprofits still, but she's mostly able to focus on the family, which is a huge help for us especially with young kids before she goes back to working again, but, or working full-time again, but still she needs her personal time, right? So I, I block an hour and a half during the day so that just so that she can get out and like, get a run in [00:28:00] or get a ski in or whatever it is. So, you know, I, I think it's just like understanding that life changes at a rapid pace and then also understanding what happens all the time and what decisions, like what are you gonna, what are you, what are you gonna allow your kids to do, and what are you not gonna allow for them to do? And how do you work your schedule around it?

Michael: Yep. I love that. So, there's those times then where you probably feel like you're stretched pretty thin, right? And it's like, okay, well what are we going to decide on for what the kids are gonna do and kind of how we're gonna split this up? What, are there any early signs that tell you, like, you don't, maybe we need to slow down a little bit.

And what would those, what would those signs be of like, how do you reset things kind of after they, they break a little bit?

Alex: Yeah. Oh my God. All the time. They, they happen, they break all the time, right? Like they, they absolutely, like, I mean, 'cause especially my wife is [00:29:00] also as crazy as I am, right? Like she, she likes to get every drop out of every single experience. Like, I mean, you should see our itinerary for when we travel, right?

Like we are, like, we probably do in like a one week what, like, most people would do, like on four or five different trips, but like, we really want to get it all in. And, so, things break often, but like, we check in with ourselves all the time. We have a schedule that the kids can see every single week.

They see what's coming. They know that like they get home from school and they have to like eat really quickly and then go to ski practice. Like they know that that's coming. They, we talk about it in the morning and then we get it going. But, I think again, it goes back to that kindness, right? Like kindness to yourself and kindness to other people around you. And just know that like we're all just testing things,

Michael: Yep.

Alex: right? And, and so just being able to improve slightly every single time. The only way you're gonna be able to do that is if, if you're kind to yourself.

Michael: Yep. I love that. I [00:30:00] like how you're, you're willing to give yourself a little bit of grace, right? You're willing to like, yeah, things aren't going to be perfect. That's okay, and we recognize that, and we're in this together, right? You're in a partnership, right, and so yeah, not everybody's fortunate enough to have a partner or they might go through a season where they don't have a partner, and, in that case, like who can you rely on? Like this is, I think being a dad is a team sport, right?

Alex: Oh yeah.

Michael: It's, it's, I've been a single dad. It's not easy, but you find help from others. And that help isn't always like, oh yeah, I'll watch your kids while you go do this. Sometimes it's just you gotta talk it through, right? And same thing like when you are stretched thin, like, yeah, it sometimes it's not gonna work out. That's okay. We're gonna learn from this and kind of move on it. You know, something else I kind of picked up from what you're saying is that there's a little bit of preparation that allows you to do this, right?[00:31:00]

Of like, yeah, we know that when we go on vacation, it's gonna be packed, you know, from morning to night. So, we know there are going to be some hiccups along the way, but we've mentally prepared ourselves for that happening. So, it becomes a little bit easier, I think, to grasp in the moment. So when it does, when things do break, or you do feel stretched really thin, it's like, it's not as overwhelming, right, 'cause you've planned for it. You know that these things are going to happen. Nothing is perfect, and you're giving yourself that grace to be like, yeah, you know what? It's okay. Next time, we'll do it a little bit differently, and this is what we learned from it, but, you know, we'll get through it and still enjoy the moment.

Alex: Yeah, I love that, like, love what you're saying there. A couple things come to like. First thing about having the additional support systems, right? Like, yeah, I mean, my is Isabelle's going, she's celebrating her 40th birthday this weekend with her friends, you know, in Canada.

Michael: Awesome.

Alex: She's gonna be in another country. And so it's like, all right, eight o'clock [00:32:00] basketball practice. Like, "hey, Kayla, can you help me cover this? You know, can you drop, you know, Jay off at the, at practice and I'll pick him up?" And, you know, so there's, there's that and, you know, I, running's really, a really awesome, like, networking tool and outlet for me. Like best friends in my entire life are from my high school track and cross country team.

My best friends in the area right now are a running group that we pulled together just from posting on our local message boards, right? And we're out there and we're talking, we're talking about politics that we're, you know, like it's cra-, it's, you know, like we, we live in a really interesting time right now and like we're able to process the things and we don't have the same political views and, but we're still able to talk through it, and we do talk about like how things are really challenging in our lives and like how do you manage like going to this practice and that practice, and how is your relationship and all the things, right?

Michael: Yep.

Alex: And if you don't [00:33:00] have that, it's really hard. So, that, that was the one thing. The other thing I wanted to say is, like, I think, it, going back to being like planful about everything you're doing, like, we, our kids are, you know, 4, 6, 8, and 10, right? Really young. But they still participate. Like we still ask them, you know, like, "hey, are you all okay with us, you know, taking on this sort of itinerary? Is there something you want to change about it?" One thing that our oldest daughter mentioned when she was eight was like, this is really stress-, going, I feel like we're always rushing in the, in the airports, right? Like from one place to another. That's really stressful for us. And so we chose some connections that were a little bit less tight just to be able to create an experience that was better for them. And so, but we didn't learn, I mean, it was complete failure the first time. She was so stressed and, you know, and, but you have to, you know, you have to take the inputs from everyone, even though

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: you know these little minds are a little different, so.

Michael: Right, yeah, and you don't know it until you've [00:34:00] experienced it yourself, right? Like, I could tell you, you know, connections are really tough, especially when you have little ones, but what is, how meaningful is that to you until you've gone through it yourself, right? And then your kids can point out like that is stressful.

Alex: Yeah. Yep.

Michael: How do you encourage your team to take time off to unplug? To build their work around their life, right? Like you clearly do it very well yourself, but how do you encourage those that work for you or work with you to do the same thing?

Alex: Yeah, I mean, it's, it's, I, it's modeling right? And other people model it for me, too. You know, I definitely don't have it all figured out, right? And so for me, I put my entire calendars public, including my own personal calendar. And, so, not, not my whole personal calendar, but my personal events on my work calendar, they're in there.

I, I, we block off, [00:35:00] like I block off my, my sleep time and my personal time. And so like everyone sees like, alright, you wanna reach out to me, like, here's the windows that you can reach out to me, and if you don't see me, this is why you can't see me, right? And so, so public calendars, I think, really help in modeling as a leader.

And then take a lot of time off, too, intentionally, like we do have, we have unlimited PTO which is usually a trick, but because, but I, because I'm modeling that I'm taking, you know, four weeks off plus like, we close, couple, like two and a half weeks of the year, three weeks of the year. People see that like taking seven weeks off even for the leader of the company, like, you know, our company continues to grow every single year, right? And so that's not, that's not hurting us, right? And if anything, it's helping us. And so everyone feels really comfortable to do that. Or like, you know, some people on my team, they don't, I, I personally don't take meetings before 10 o'clock in the morning, right? Because [00:36:00] that's just, I, that's my focus time. Other people don't wanna get up until eight or nine o'clock in the morning and don't wanna get online until 10 or 11. So, you know, we all, there's this culture where everyone understands what everyone's doing. And then we do have, we have some consultants that love, they love, they're, they're in the phase of their lives, you know, a little bit younger than I am, right, where they, they don't have kids yet, and they're like, alright, I'm ready to grind. I did it. I mean, I worked 80, a hundred hour weeks.

Michael: Yep.

Alex: And it was, it was a very fun experience.

I learned a lot. Would never recommend that to people, but some people just have to go through that experience to understand that that's not for them, too.

Michael: Right.

Alex: And so, you know, I'll, I'll give, I'll, I'll give unsolicited feedback sometimes and say, "hey, have you thought about, you know, maybe transitioning and, you know, stop stopping doing that?"

But, you know, I think every single person is, is able to, I mean, that's the nice thing about, you know, the culture that we've created. They're able to create the life that, [00:37:00] that fits their needs.

Michael: That's awesome. I like how you, you model the expectation, right? Like you want people to put family first and take care of themselves and, but you do it by doing it yourself, right? You take that, that time off. You're not afraid to take four weeks off a year plus the time that your office is closed. You're not afraid to go for a run in the middle of the day and it shows, right?

You're not just telling them you're, you're modeling the behavior.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: And also, like, there's this open line of communication it sounds like. You guys share your calendars, right? That is communicating in a way, you know, especially if you're time blocking, it's probably like your language, right? And I think it's beyond just at work, right? At home, too, it's the same thing. Like, if you want your kids to model certain behavior, you, you do it yourself, right? And you have that open line of communication like, this is how I'm doing it. This is why I'm doing it. And they, they learn to understand that better than it [00:38:00] just like writing it out for them, right? You could send your kids an email. What, what good is that gonna do? Probably nothing. Right? But

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: If you show them like, yeah, dad likes to stay physically active and dad likes to, you know, make sure that the house is clean on a regular basis and like does a couple extra things, like, they'll start to pick up on that stuff. I think a lot more than

Alex: Oh yeah.

Michael: you just telling them like, oh yeah, you need to wash the dishes today.

Alex: I have two girls and two boys and like, again, I hate focusing on gender stereotypes, but oh my god, my boys are so different than the girls. And, and they are absolutely wild. And it could be birth order and all these other things too, right?

And just individual personalities, but that's

Michael: Sure.

Alex: just what we have.

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: And, you know, we've tried so many different, like read every single parenting book, like tried to, you know, read every single blog. Tried to figure out like, okay, how do I compel these young boys to focus on bedtime, chilling out, going to sleep, or [00:39:00] whatever it may be, right?

Or like, hey, we gotta stop playing this game now. Gotta get to school, right? Please don't hit me, or like, pinch me, or do whatever the things are that you do like that your little body is just telling you to do.

Michael: Right.

Alex: And, and one of the, one of the things that, that we've read that's really been effective is, you know, instead of just like trying to tell them, you know, to, to force them to like, 'cause you know, sometimes there's a time and place where maybe you have to try to force it, but instead you like, sort of ride the, ride the current out, right? And, and you go with them and you're like, alright, you guys are gonna be crazy, like, let's, let's do this thing. And like, let's try to figure it out. But like, what do you think's fair? Like, you know, let's be crazy for another two minutes, and then do you think that's enough? And then we can chill out and go to bed, right? And that has been working so effectively, right? And I'll go and lay down with them and like, there's just like these little things that you realize that you can model or you can go with the flow versus trying to [00:40:00] demand. It's so much more effective.

It works in, in the workplace and every place else,

Michael: too.

Yeah, absolutely. Right. Because then they feel involved in the process, right?

Alex: That's right.

Michael: Right, involved in the decision. Like they feel like they have some autonomy then. Right? And, and the, the beautiful thing about it as they get older, if you start modeling their behavior, they will immediately stop doing it because that is like

Alex: Oh my God.

Michael: the most

Alex: No, it's the best.

Michael: painful thing ever.

Alex: I, I've seen some of the funniest things where it's like, alright, let's do role play. Alright, you all act like me and I'm gonna act like you.

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: And then, and then we do it and it's silly and we all laugh and then,

Michael: Right.

Alex: and then things are fine. Like we, we understand how we should model, you know,

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: and how we should act.

Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. So, speaking of your kids, you're, you know, you're raising them while you're running a business, and they, I assume, have some sort of a front row seat to, to what you're doing. What do you hope your children learn from watching you work?

Alex: I hope that, I hope that my kids see that [00:41:00] work is a really important part of my life because it's the thing that we're gonna do more of than maybe like sleep might be a little bit more. But, like, it's the thing we're gonna do most of in our entire lives, and it's really important to have meaningful work to be able to, to move things forward.

But also just blocking the time to take care of myself and to build meaningful relationships with the people around me, too. And making sure that they understand that it's, it's an important part of my life, but it's not my life,

Michael: Yeah,

Alex: you know?

Michael: Absolutely. I love that. And I like that relationships comes to the forefront, right? Like I think for me personally, I don't think I value the relationships I had earlier in my life, right? I realize the value of relationships now, and I'm watching my kids develop their relationships and their friendships and they're like, they're so easy to make friends with.[00:42:00]

And it's like, that is, we don't necessarily think about that kind of stuff, right? Especially as we're raising our kids of, like, are they gonna be able to get along with others and are they going to, are other people going to want to be around them? And if you want somebody to be around you, you know it, it's a two-way street, right?

Our relationship is, is both ways, and it's very easy to not model that for the kids, but also, you know, you, hopefully you're, you're demonstrating to them like relationships are a good thing, right? And it's an important thing for kids. And it's just something, I think as a dad, like, I don't think we give it enough credit.

Alex: Oh my God. Yeah, yeah, and, I mean, I tell my kids like, hey, it's important for you to understand that I'm your parent. And sometimes like you're gonna have to take my word for it, right, that this is, this is the right thing for you right now, right? And my goal is to help you understand how to [00:43:00] make these good decisions on your own, right?

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: And I'm trying to include you as much as I can. But part of it is, you know, like I, I also, I, I think it's important to be a friend to your kid, too, in a way, right? Build that kind of friendship relationship with them as well. It's not, they're your friend, right? Because I mean, it's important for all those different dynamics of being a parent to exist, but teaching them how to have a relationship with you, have, have a relationship with the siblings, right? And not just talk about it, right? But to actually play it out, right? It's like, alright, yeah, you're beating up your brother, like, not cool, right? But why, why is that happening? And, you know, how, how is your relationship gonna develop into the future?

Is that something you really want to have?

Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: So, before we get into the speed round, I, I have two more questions I wanna to run by you. You know, we, we talked a lot about [00:44:00] timeboxing and, you know, on the surface, to me it seems straightforward, but for, you know, maybe in actually implementing it, it could be complicated for some. If someone wanted to try your method of timeboxing, but feels uncomfortable blocking personal time on their calendar, what's kind of a low barrier way to just get started that still leads to some sort of significant change over time?

Alex: Yeah, I mean, if you're, if you're scared to do the whole day, right, which I know a lot of people are, or they don't feel like they can succeed, one thing I do is I have, I have a half hour block at 9:30 every single day, and it's just like set my daily schedule, right? And you can do as much as you want with that or as little as you want with that,

Michael: Yeah.

Alex: But I honor that little block more than anything in my entire day. And, it's a great place to start 'cause even with that half hour, you're intentionally thinking about what you're gonna do [00:45:00] with your day. Maybe you just write three goals on the board. Maybe you do something, you know, to, to achieve that, but, one guy that I really, like, Marc, he reached out to me 'cause I was one of the handful of people that actually wrote about timeboxing on LinkedIn back before it was cool, I guess, or I still don't think it's cool. But, but Marc Zao-Sanders, he, he has an awesome, he put out a book called Timeboxing. He has an awesome newsletter. It's free, you can get it. Man, he has some amazing tips. And he is like the master timeboxer, right? Like, I mean, just absolutely incredible. And you can just pick something from some of his emails 'cause it, you don't have to do it all, right? You can just say, hey, look, you know, he sent an email, and it's like, alright, I want to implement this thing now.

So that, those are my two tips, right? Like, spend half an hour thinking about your day, no matter what it is, right, and, and then sign up for his newsletter. I think it's definitely worth it.

Michael: Very [00:46:00] cool. Love that.

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: Alright, one more question, then I want to get to the speed round. Beyond the office, how can dads create a small routine or, or signal at home that helps them feel more present, reduce stress, kind of, but most importantly help, you know, themselves and their parents or their themselves and their kids feel more connected?

Alex: I, I'll go back to what I said earlier. It's, it's the phones, like, I mean, these things are the most toxic thing and most enabling thing, positively enabling thing that we, that has come across humankind probably.

Michael: Yes.

Alex: And man, like it just creating a, a technology free space for you to connect. It's like, it's not always a hundred percent possible.

Like my kid, I let my kids watch tablets. I do, you know, like we, we do things like that. But putting that, putting that phone in another room and making eye contact and paying attention to them [00:47:00] and not flipping the TV on, like, that's unbelievable. Like, it's an unbelievable change. It tells your kids like this, you're more important than this phone or this tv, right? So, yeah.

Michael: Absolutely, and you don't have to, it doesn't have to be a end all, be all like all the time thing. Like you could start small, right? Like 15 minutes, just, hey, put the phone in another room, and we're going to play a game, or we're gonna talk, or we're going to do something together, right?

Alex: Yeah.

Michael: And, you know, next thing you know that 15 minutes next time is 30 minutes, and, you know, you can start to build momentum behind that, so, I love that advice. That's great advice. Alright, time for the speed round if you're ready.

Alex: Yeah. Let's do it.

Michael: Five quick questions that have nothing to do with anything, but we're gonna have some fun doing it. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?

Alex: Daniel Tiger Neighborhood. I, I was just running on the treadmill yesterday and, and I had, I had to get my run [00:48:00] in 'cause Isabel wasn't here. And, and Eddie needed some entertainment, so we watched Daniel Tiger together.

Michael: This, I may regret asking that question ever again 'cause now Daniel Tiger's Neighborhood is going to be stuck in my head for a very long time. I haven't heard that song in ages.

Alex: It's there.

Michael: Yeah, it just, you just flip the switch that I did not want flipped on. I asked the question, so that's on me. What,

Alex: So good.

Michael: yeah, what was your very first job?

Alex: First job, it was an illegal under the table job, but I did it at the age of 12. I worked at a Japanese steakhouse, back of the house.

Michael: Very cool. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

Alex: I'll take my chances with the T-Rex.

Michael: Todder-sized t-rex, okay. Any particular reason?

Alex: I feel like I might have more of a fighting chance.

Michael: [00:49:00] Okay. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you'd sing if you, if you needed to?

Alex: Not one, but any Journey song. I'll, I'll

Michael: Okay.

Alex: sing it all. You know, I feel like you have to, it has to fit into the night. Hopefully it's not the, the 30th time it's been sung that night though, so.

Michael: Right, right. Absolutely. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

Alex: My kids are, all of them, like even the oldest, like they're all really into these like little stuffies, right? Like, and they, they pretend like they're real and sometimes like, they'll be like, dad, can you take care of it?

And, and then it, it shows up at the conference with me in my pocket.

Michael: That's great.

Alex: So, I, I think that's, that's probably the weirdest, for sure.

Michael: That's awesome. I guess you always have a reminder at home then. Yeah. Alright. Awesome. Well, thanks so much Alex. Before we wrap up, I wanna give you [00:50:00] space to share more about your work. Where can listeners go if they wanna learn more about The Tuck Consulting Group or connect with you or kinda explore the resources, opportunities that you offer?

Alex: Yeah, thank you so much for that. Yeah, I, best way to do it, I, I love, I, I'm obsessed with LinkedIn as a, a place to connect on the internet. I think it's such a great resource and I love to share my connections with other folks. So, please connect with me on LinkedIn, for sure. It's just linkedin.com/in/alextuck. Easy. And then, and obviously, you can go to our website, tuckconsultinggroup.com and book some time there. Check out our resources. Lots of cool stuff that our consultants are putting out there. But, you know, Michael, just really appreciate you having me here.

Michael: Oh, my pleasure. Alex, this was, this was awesome. This is really powerful 'cause your life and your work, it shows that like balance isn't an accident, right? Like, you've made clear choices. You've been very intentional. You've created a [00:51:00] culture that demonstrates this, demonstrates this intention, and you show the courage to protect your time, that, especially the time that matters most.

So, I appreciate you giving dads here a blueprint for building meaningful work in a way that still lets you be present at home, right? So, I appreciate you joining us today. And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday. It's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what what really matters right now. If this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.