Danny Brassell on Becoming a Better Communicator at Work and at Home

[00:00:00] Danny: I always tell people, stop talking about your successes. Start talking about your failures because not everybody around you succeeded, but they've all failed, right? And the more you share your own failures, the more they're gonna see themselves in you and say, Hey, this is somebody I can trust.

[00:00:19] Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention.

[00:00:29] I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm joined by Dr. Danny Purcell. Danny's story starts in the classroom as a teacher in Compton and stretches all the way to stages around the world where he's delivered thousands of keynote talks, written more than 20 books, and helped entrepreneurs turn communication into a real business asset. What really stands out to me about Danny is how he uses speaking, storytelling, and reading not as abstract skills, but as practical tools that shape how we show up at work, how we connect with people, and how we lead at home. Danny, I'm excited to chat with you today. Welcome to the show. I'm really glad you're here.

[00:01:00] Danny: Thanks so much for having me, Michael. Man, that was a mouthful. I can't believe you got through it. Well done, my friend.

[00:01:05] Michael: Thank you. Thank you. You make it easy to. To talk about you. So, I wanna set the stage here a little bit, and I wanna start by going back in time before the big stages and the books. What did your life look like when you were teaching in Compton, and what did that season kind of teach you about purpose and perspective?

[00:01:24] Danny: Oh, I absolutely loved it. I fell in love with teaching. I kind of fell into it. I started off as a high school teacher and then they put me in middle school, then upper elementary, then lower elementary to pretty soon, instead of preparing students for college, I was coming home with snot marks all over my pants from my little ones hugging me all day.

[00:01:42] And I learned what works for the 12th grader does not necessarily work with a kindergartner, but what works with a kindergartner works with all age levels. I call kindergarten New York, New York. If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere because they have about a seven minute attention span, and I loved it.

[00:01:56] And so basically all the skills that I really needed to become a much better speaker, I actually learned from the kids because kids are brutal. They won't let you be boring, and if you are boring, you're going to hear it.

[00:02:11] Michael: For sure, for sure. So, when you left the classroom and started speaking around the world, what kind of surprised you most about that transition? Cause talking to five-year-olds versus talking to large audiences of adults is gotta be different, right? Like it's, yes, the kindergartners probably are your toughest audience, but both a professional and a personal aspect there, there's gotta be some differences.

[00:02:36] I'm curious what those, what that transition was like.

[00:02:39] Danny: I think I overestimated adults. They, they allow you to stink, and my, my presentations are always high energy. You're, you're gonna get up, we're gonna be singing, we're gonna be dancing, we're gonna be moving, we're gonna be laughing. High energy, and I realized adults are actually very cool about allowing people to give them bad presentations.

[00:03:01] It's actually one of the reasons I started coaching people was I'm like, you know, I'm sick of seeing people give these PowerPoint slides that have 88 bullet points and a font you can't read, and they, they're just reading from a script. There's no way that little kids would allow you to do that. And so I really feel blessed from the little ones.

[00:03:21] They taught me a lot about communication.

[00:03:24] Michael: Absolutely. That's interesting that the, the kids are the ones that really forced you to prepare better and to present more effectively, whereas...

[00:03:38] Danny: Absolutely. Yeah, I was, I mean I, the stupidest thing, Michael, that I ever told a first grade, I was teaching first grade and I told the kids write about your lives, and they look at me like I'm from outer space. They're like, we're only six. Nothing's happened to us. And so I'm like, no, man. Things happen to you every day.

[00:03:54] I'm like, when I was six, when I was in first grade, I had a teacher, she called me stupid in front of the class and smacked me on the hand and got me to cry in front of everybody. And so the next day I was walking to school, I had an apple and I peed on the apple and I gave her the apple and she said it was the best apple she had ever had.

[00:04:10] And my kids were like, that is awesome. This is also the reason I've never accepted food from a child, but what it taught me, people to give you stories, you gotta give them stories. It's a two-way street.

[00:04:22] Michael: Right. Absolutely. I love how you essentially met them where they were, right? You gave the kids a story that was something they could relate to.

[00:04:32] Danny: Yep.

[00:04:32] Michael: They probably haven't done it themselves. They probably haven't peed on an apple, but it was something that's like, okay, yes, I go to school every day. I have teachers of all different sorts that kind of present themselves in different ways. And some I get along with better. Some I learn more from better. But it was something that they can relate to, right? And I think as teachers, as presenters, even as dads, we have to meet the moment, right?

[00:04:58] We can't necessarily just present or communicate the way that we want to. We have to consider who our audience is, right? And like you said, like, talking to a five-year-old is probably much bigger task than talking to others of similar age or similar backgrounds. So it's.

[00:05:21] Danny: Yeah, I think a lot of people, they have it wrong. They talk about living the golden rule. Do unto others as they do unto you, and I don't think that's right. I think the platinum rule is what's right. Do unto others as they want done unto them. I mean, you know, for example, like there's nothing more rewarding to me than sitting on a, sitting on the sofa, drinking bourbon, watching football all day. That's the greatest thing ever. But if I suggested that to my wife, hey honey, you want to drink bourbon with me and watch football? That's like total misery for her.

[00:05:50] Michael: Right.

[00:05:51] Danny: I have to do what she wants; not what I want.

[00:05:54] Michael: Right, right. No, that's a, that's a good point. And, you know, at the same time, you also have to take care of yourself though, right? Like you do have to have that occasional bourbon while watching football because yes, you do for others as you want, as they would want done for them, but you can't be there to do that if you don't take care of yourself.

[00:06:14] Danny: Completely agree.

[00:06:15] Michael: So you've spoken to thousands of audiences, thousands of people, if not more. And, at what point did you realize it wasn't just about speaking, but about helping people communicate who they really are?

[00:06:30] Danny: Well, there's just, I, I'm a little bit different than a lot of coaches that coach people on how to speak. 'cause a lot of people will tell you, oh, you gotta tell people about the worst moment of your life. And, there's three reasons why I refuse to do that, Michael. I mean, first of all, the world just survived the global pandemic.

[00:06:45] Everybody's had a lot of bad stuff happen to them. I don't think we need more stories of misery. I think we need more stories of hope. Second of all, I coach people how to create what I call a well-crafted story. When I was a reporter, politicians would call it their stump speech. You can call it peanut butter and jelly.

[00:07:01] It doesn't matter what you call it, but this is a speech that you're gonna deliver again and again to introduce yourself to new audiences. It'll be ingrained like the Pledge of Allegiance or the Lord's Prayer. Well, I always tell people, do you really wanna talk about the worst moment of your life again and again, and relive that?

[00:07:16] I mean, I have a friend. His daughter was killed in a school shooting. He's given that presentation over a thousand times. I have no idea how he does that, Michael. There's no way I can talk about the worst day of my life. And, third, and this is where people get angry with me. I have one objective when I'm on stage.

[00:07:30] I want you to leave feeling better than when you came in. I want you laughing, smiling, happy. I think there's something admirable about that as a basic objective. I believe that people tell you the same sad story again and again. By the 20th time they're telling it, now, those are crocodile tears and now they're being manipulative.

[00:07:46] And I'm not saying it's not an effective sales strategy. It's actually a very effective sales strategy, but I personally don't wanna have to take a shower when I get off stage 'cause I just manipulated my audience. There are ethical ways to get people to wanna do business with you. And so watching people, when I speak with them, I, I look at the communication and it's a two-way street.

[00:08:05] It's actually, i'm a little bit counterintuitive in the way I coach people. Most people will film themselves when they speak, and I say, stop that. Film the audience. That's gonna tell you everything you need to know. If they're sitting there leaning in and hanging on every word, it means you're doing a good job.

[00:08:21] If they're on their cell phone, well maybe you gotta change something.

[00:08:25] Michael: I love that. That's the change in perspective there is so important. I think it's goes beyond the stage, right? Like, you are, as a communicator, it doesn't just mean making presentations in front of big audiences, right? It also boils down all the way to those one-on-one conversations that you have, and are people responding to you in the way that you are hoping that they're going to respond to you? And you bring up a great point about honesty and feeling, right, of like, you can give the same presentation about the worst day of your life, but over time your emotion about that as time becomes more distant may not be the same as it was on day one and how you use that and how honest you are with that, it, many audiences, I think, many people will start to realize when they're being manipulated. And you lose some effectiveness when you aren't honest with yourself and, and with your audience. So I think it's really.

[00:09:24] Danny: Yeah, completely, completely agree with you, Michael. A couple of weeks ago, I was speaking at an event and the first two speakers, they, they preach to the audience to enjoy the journey. I got up on stage. I guess I was feeling facetious that day. I'm like, you ever notice the people who say enjoy the journey have already succeeded?

[00:09:41] I mean, when you're in that journey, are you having fun? Really? I mean, oh man, I'm broke and I can't make my rent and my kids are starving. I'm really enjoying this journey. What a bunch of nonsense. I mean, it's great to be able to reflect. It is kinda like the same two guys. They said they were thought leaders.

[00:09:58] I, I just hate that term, thought leaders. I, I, I asked que-, I asked the audience, I'm like, raise your hand if you need another thought. You know, I'm not a thought leader. I'm a results leader is let's, let's produce some results. And I just think there's a lot of nonsense handed to people all the time, which it sounds, I, I guess it sounds good, but it's kind of cliche, and I don't know if it really offers anybody practical suggestions.

[00:10:23] I mean, you and I are fathers. And I can tell you as a teacher, I always say this to parents when I'm, when I'm teaching the parents how to read with their kids, I'm like, well, why don't you swap kids? And they're like, what do you mean? I'm like, why don't you get your kids' best friends to read with you and you get your kids to read with their best friend's parents.

[00:10:41] And the reason is, none of my kids listen to me. Everything that I show people that works with everybody else, it doesn't necessarily work with me. I'm just like everybody else, man. I mean, you know, I've been to those parties. There's nothing more annoying. You're at a party and somebody's bragging that their 3-year-old just composed a symphony.

[00:11:01] And meanwhile I'm like, well, well my son, he's learned how to pick his nose with two fingers at the same time. I mean, I, it's a little bit different. What's important to me, and this is when my wife and I, we have three kids and before they were born, we were hoping, oh, maybe they'll be doctors or attorneys or, you know, we had all these aspirations and really when my oldest daughter, when she was born, all of that changed immediately. I'm like, gosh, you know, I hope she's safe and I hope she's kind. You know, the world needs a lot kinder people, not necessarily more intelligent people.

[00:11:38] Michael: Yep. I, I'm with you there. I think, you know, it's before my kids were born, I was thinking, yeah, you know, I have high ambitions for them. I hope they, you know, change the world, and, in reality, the odds of me, being the father of the kid who cures cancer or the, the kid who brings world peace are really slim and, right, and it's really outta my control. I can't teach them how to do that, right? But what I can focus on, what I can control is teaching them how to be happy, how to live healthy, how to be kind to others, and help others succeed. Right? Like, to me, that is what's important. You don't, I didn't realize that before my kids were born, like you, it was like, okay, it's a different ball game when they're born. When they're born, it's, yeah, I want to teach them to, to read and ride a bike and do all these things. And yes, I can do those things. Are those world changing things? Probably not, but if they can have a positive impact on one person, I could teach them how to treat others well, right? And then they do that to a second person or a third person, and those people then go out and treat somebody else a little bit better, right? There's a little bit of a network effect there. So they can still have a grand effect and be gratified with what they pursue and become happy, healthy adults is what, what my hope is.

[00:12:58] So, it's like, I hear what you're saying, and, I think, I agree with you and maybe we're on an island by ourselves, but, right, and, and maybe, you know, someday somebody will come up with a cure for cancer and their parents will be like, yeah, my kid cured cancer. And be like, that is great. We're so glad you brought that person into the world, but for everybody else, what can you, how can you better the lives of others around you? I think is the more important question that we should be asking.

[00:13:29] Danny: It begins with us one-on-one, just like this. I mean, when I used to teach history in high school, the first day of school, I always tell the kids, you know, two things you need to know is, first of all, history books are usually written by the winners. Every event in history has multiple points of view.

[00:13:44] Secondly, you have to understand my job as your teacher is not to teach you what to think. It's to teach you how to think.

[00:13:50] Michael: Right.

[00:13:50] Danny: And if you wanna disagree with me, that's fantastic, but what you're gonna learn is how to disagree and be civil about it. You know, I don't care what your politics are, but calling people names, that's no way to progress society.

[00:14:05] Michael: Exactly. I, I couldn't agree with you more. So, you mentioned like when you became a dad, your ambitions for your children sort of changed, right? Your, the direction you wanted to sort of raise them in. How else did becoming a dad change the way, not necessarily your kids thought about success or ambition, but how you thought about success and ambition and how you spend your time?

[00:14:29] Danny: Ah, that's a good question, Michael. I mean, well, first of all I'm a homebody. I, you know, it was Jesse Jackson had a really good quote. He said, "children need your presence, not your presents," meaning you gotta be there for them. And I, I, even though I travel a lot to speak, when I'm home, I'm home. I'm not in some distant land working.

[00:14:50] I, I'm pretty focused on them. I mean, they're older now. And even last night we were just watching Friends together and talking about the books we were reading and talking about our days. And it's just, that's, that's the important stuff. Everybody looks at like these big, significant events, I'm like, I don't know.

[00:15:10] I think the journey, what I enjoy is just those moments of just hanging out and hearing about each other's days, and, you know, one day everything is great and the next day everything's bad and let's figure out how we can improve. And it's, it's great. It's very fulfilling being a, I, I hope I'm a good parent.

[00:15:31] And it's been, but it's been very fulfilling for me on my end.

[00:15:34] Michael: Yeah, I, I agree with you. I think that, to me, the, the most important times are those in-between moments, right? It's not when you are at work, it's not when you're necessarily at home. It could be just sitting, it could be sitting on the couch and just talking about what books you're reading. It could be you're in the car together, driving somewhere, going to performance, a game, an appointment, whatever it may be. And that's when those honest conversations tend to happen most, right? And those are the ones that have the greatest influence, I think, because they're not forced, right? And they're genuine. And those are the ones that the kids tend to remember, right?

[00:16:12] They remember those conversations and that not necessarily the exact words that you used, but you were there for them when they had those questions, right? Like, that presence is what, it matters more than whatever advice you might give them or whatever discussion you might have, but the fact that you were available in that moment, or gave them a moment where you were available, it's just in between times that, that make all the difference. So I love that.

[00:16:41] Danny: I love that. What, what you're describing is exactly what I tell clients is clients think that they have to have done something amazing to be effective speakers. I'm like, actually, it's on the contrary. I mean, right now, I'm working with a gentleman, and he's climbed the highest peak on all seven continents.

[00:16:57] He swam with sharks in Madagascar. He did the Iditarod in Alaska. And I look at him, I'm like, nobody can relate to you. Nobody in your audience has climbed Mount Everest, but all of them peed their pants when they were six years old. That's something that they all did. It's so, and I love the way you phrase that, those in-between moments.

[00:17:15] I might, I'm not gonna steal it from you, I'm gonna liberate it from you. I might have to take that expression, but you're absolutely, those are the important thing. My favorite movie of all time is The Godfather. It stinks. Whenever it's on tv, I'm stuck watching it for three hours. My favorite mo-, well, there's lots of favorite moments, but one of my favorite moments is towards the end of the movie, Don Corleone is just sitting there with Michael and they're just talking about his grandson.

[00:17:39] He is like, oh, he is smarter than me. He's already reading the funny pages, and Don Corleone is like he's already reading the funny page. Wow, that's such a real, like you just, you described it perfectly, Michael. It's a real moment that, that's what I connect with is those, those, you know, I remember the movie parenthood with Steve Martin and he is struggling as a dad, but his, his son, like I can't remember if he, he got the game-winning catch or the game-winning hit, but he just does this dance like this is the greatest thing ever to happen. And, I'm like, yeah, what a great moment. I mean, and you have those moments from day to day where it's like, wow, that's great. And that's where the reward is.

[00:18:19] Michael: Absolutely. Yeah. It's, yes, the kid will remember making that catch,

[00:18:25] Danny: Mm-hmm.

[00:18:25] Michael: but they're also gonna remember when you recognize them for making that catch, right, of like you made yourself available to show them that like what they're doing matters. Even the little things, right? Like just showing up

[00:18:38] Danny: Yeah.

[00:18:39] Michael: and being part of a team. Yes, you had that great catch and maybe the next game you strike out three times, but you're still there to be like, yeah, I, you know, it doesn't feel great to strike out, but that's okay. You get up and you go to bat again and maybe the next game you get a hit. So, I'm wondering, for yourself, was there a moment where you kind of felt tension, that tension yourself between building meaningful work and being that present dad that you wanna be?

[00:19:08] Danny: Well, I think like 99% of us, the problem becomes like income because I, I, I view my role as the father is I'm the provider. You know, I, and that's really important and I. It bums me out. It's actually something I ask God for all the time. I'm like, God, please test my faith by giving me unlimited wealth.

[00:19:28] There's nothing worse than having to stress about bills and things like that. And I'm just like everybody else. I mean, you know? And it's like, wow, I wish I hadn't had wasted time thinking about that when I could have been really focused more on the kids and my wife. That, that's something, but, no, I'm not a person that looks in the rear view mirror. I'm a person that looks in the, the windshield. It's much bigger, and I'm always like, okay, how do I get better? What did I learn? How do I get better? So that's the way I, I, at, I tackle these challenges.

[00:20:02] Michael: Makes sense. Makes sense. So I think a lot of what you talk about is authenticity, right? Like it's related to your audience, but being authentic about it, and you are being authentic by saying that, yes, I wanna provide financially for my family, but I also want to be there. And there's always gonna be that tension, just like 99% of dads probably also face. So when you're playing different roles at work and at home, how do you think about alignment versus balance?

[00:20:36] Danny: Well, I'm, I'm a total nerd. I don't believe in balance. I don't think you can ever have balance. I think there's times in your life where you're spending more time at work than with your family and things like that. But what I, I, I've been blessed with lots of wonderful coaches in my life and two of my favorite coaches are ,.

[00:20:52] They have a bestselling book called now they have Do What Matters the most, but the first one, what was the first one called? Becoming Your Best. And they taught me, one of the most precious skills anybody ever taught me was I have my, my planner now. Every Saturday morning for 45 minutes, I review the previous week and I plan out my next week.

[00:21:12] It's called pre-week planning. And, so, I have seven categories at the top of my planner and I color code everything because I'm a total dork. And so, former teacher, everything I do either rhymes or it's literative. And so I have my seven F's, and so I have five goals for each category. So the goals are focus goals, fitness goals, financial goals, family goals, faith goals, fun goals and fulfillment goals. I put those up at the top and then I insert 'em throughout my week. And then at the end of the week, I evaluate how many goals were, was I able to accomplish. I don't believe you have balance, because I can honestly say, Michael, I've never accomplished 100% of those goals in a week. I consider it great if I accomplished 80% of 'em. But what's good is I'm conscious of it and I'm always thinking about it and I'm like, you know what? I haven't been spending as much time with this kid as I need to. That's a goal, that's a priority for the next week. And I don't want it to slip too far.

[00:22:11] And I think if you do that, I don't know if you can ever achieve balance. I mean, one of the activities, Rob and Steve didn't create it, I don't think Zig created it. I, a lot of my coaches have used the same activity. It's an interesting activity. So what you do is you draw a circle and then you draw seven spokes to the wheel, and then each spoke is, you know, so I have my seven F's. Some people say my emotional goals, my, my mental goals, my fitness goals, whatever. And so what you do is you evaluate, you, you give yourself a score of one to 10 on each. Like how are you doing financially? Well, it's been kind of slow right now. I'm gonna give myself a three outta 10. How about with your family? Oh, that's great. We spent last weekend at the beach.

[00:22:56] I'm giving myself a nine. What about faith? Kind of, I mean, I've been going to church, but I, I need to get back in that small, small group, you know, so I'll give myself a five. It doesn't matter what the scores are, but then after you've given yourself scores on each spoke, you then connect the dots.

[00:23:13] And if it's not a full circle, you're not in alignment.

[00:23:15] Michael: Yeah.

[00:23:16] Danny: And that's a great exercise to be fully present and conscious. I mean, because I look at so many people. I, I actually just fired a billionaire that I was working with because he's a jerk. And I'm like, I don't, I have a policy now. I don't work with jerks anymore.

[00:23:33] I don't, I don't need to. I don't need your money. I, I need, my peace of mind is much more important than, than your paycheck. Now, I mean, there's times in my life where I, I, I worked with jerks because I really needed the money. I, I refuse to do that now, but this is a man who's worth over a billion dollars, but he's at least a hundred pounds overweight.

[00:23:51] He's on wife number three, and his kids won't talk to him. Is that man a success? Well, yes, financially he's a success. Professionally, he's a success, but I don't know. I don't know if he goes to church. I don't know if he has any spiritual success. I know he doesn't have fitness success because the guy doesn't exercise at all. You know, and so I think he's gotta be thinking about those things all the time is, you know, how can I, again, I don't think full balance is actually possible because you always are giving something else a little bit extra time, but I, I think just being cognizant of it, that's how we get better every day.

[00:24:28] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I love how you've created a practical system for yourself, right? Of, you know, these are the seven things I'm going to measure my success by, but in a way that you can handle it within, with one sit down every Saturday morning of just kind of, this is how I'm gonna keep on track for it.

[00:24:48] I've identified what my goals are going to be, and I figured out a way to measure them. And you do it in a way that doesn't take up all day, right? Like it's easy to get lost in a system. just something you can do immediately. And so on the other end of it, you, you know, you mentioned you fired this billionaire 'cause he was a jerk, right, and, but I imagine you also have worked with leaders, maybe entrepreneurs or educators, that have better personal goals, better communication habits, that seem more grounded, more present when their lives are full. Are there particular habits that you see from these people that allow them to be, to live more fulfilling, more, you know, quote unquote successful lives?

[00:25:35] Danny: Well, what I love, I mean, I resisted coaching for a long time. I went, once I started having a lot of successes as speakers, some pretty famous people and companies started asking me to coach 'em and I resisted 'cause, frankly, you need to know this about me: I'm obsessive compulsive. I have a very high standard for my students.

[00:25:51] I won't let you fail. I'm gonna be on your back holding you accountable until you succeed. Well, now that I work primarily with entrepreneurs and executives and business owners, I find that they're, you know, that they they're highly motivated. They do the work, and it's probably been the most gratifying thing I've ever done.

[00:26:07] There's nothing I like better than people that do the work because I know what I'm teaching you will work if you do the work.

[00:26:14] Michael: Right.

[00:26:15] Danny: It's kind of like reading. I work with so many people and they're like, oh, I couldn't do what you do. I'm like, sure you could. It's called a priority. I mean, people say they have no time to read.

[00:26:27] I'm like, oh yeah, who has time to read? If you watch the game on tv, go out shop and have a couple of beers. I mean, all of life is priorities. It's what you wanna, that's why I stopped watching the news. I'm like, why am I watching the news? How does this serve me? All it does is it gets me angry. The news is all about all of what's wrong with the world.

[00:26:45] When I'm coaching people and the people I love to coach I have this underhanded agenda. I like to work specifically with women and minorities 'cause I think they're underrepresented on stages. And, you know, seeing a couple of my women clients who were, you know, they were shaking five years ago and now they're attracting incredible speaking fees, or their business is flourished.

[00:27:08] I mean, that's, that's really gratifying. And so the characteristic is they do the work. You know, I've had some really incredible coaches in my life, and the thing that always impressed me, and I'm not gonna give their name, I don't like to name drop. My, my co-founder, he name drops. He'll tell you everybody we work with, but i've had some very famous coaches and if you ever went to a conference with them, they'll be sitting in the front row and they'll take 18 pages of notes,

[00:27:39] Michael: Yep.

[00:27:39] Danny: And that's why they're successful. Because they're willing to do the work and they don't know what they don't know, and they're willing to be curious and to continue learning.

[00:27:48] I mean, John Wooden, one of my favorite speakers of all time, former UCLA basketball coach, he said it's the things we learn after we know it all that make the biggest difference. And he is right about that. You can always learn. You can always grow. And I, I'm no different. I, and that's probably the, the greatest satisfaction about being married and a father is every single day they make fun of me about all of my weaknesses and I love it, I think it's great.

[00:28:14] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So I love how you pulled out that you know the most successful people that you have worked with, the ones you've seen, they're not just willing to put in the work, but they're also open to learning. They're not. Ego doesn't get in their way, right?

[00:28:31] Danny: Yeah.

[00:28:32] Michael: They realize that they can always do better, be better, and that takes work, right?

[00:28:37] And the only way to improve is to keep putting yourself out there and keep doing the work and keep learning and keeping an open mind. And, I know you also, you know, you touched on reading, and I know reading is a huge part of your work. Why do you believe reading mastery is so deeply connected to confidence and clarity and, and presence overall?

[00:28:59] Danny: Well, I know plenty of readers that don't necessarily become effective leaders, but Michael, I've never met an effective leader that was not also an avid reader, is, I mean, I read anything and everything and I don't care what the field is. You can't show me the most successful people in their fields aren't also avid.

[00:29:16] I mean, you look at, in, in business some of the wealthiest people in the world, you got people like Elon Musk still reads a book a day even though he is running like three or four companies. Warren Buffet still reads all day long. You look in the military, General Schwarzkopf, they said could read in four languages and quote Shakespeare voraciously.

[00:29:39] Even in athletics, football coach Bill Belichick had the largest football library in the world. He donated it to his his undergraduate university. LeBron James, I could have kissed him before the NBA Finals when he was playing for the Miami Heat. They showed him in the locker room reading the Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins.

[00:29:58] I'm like, dude, you just did more to get kids excited about reading than I can ever. That's incredible. Presidents, President Clinton used to say whenever he was stressed, he'd read some, some silly mystery. People, a lot of, one of my favorite stories is President Kennedy was at a press conference once and a, a reporter just asked him what he was reading.

[00:30:16] He said, oh, I'm reading this cool book. It's about this spy named James Bond. Well, MGM executives were watching that press conference. They bought the rights to Ian Fleming's James Bond series, and that's the reason we have James Bond movies was because the president just had a flippant comment. I'm like, that's incredible, but that's what, and I read all the time, and I'm, I'm a very eclectic reader, this is, people always say, well, I can't read that much. I'm like, well, I read 10 books a day. I mean, many of them are scratch n' sniff and pop-up books, but I do read 10 books a day. I mean, I don't understand why people think a book has to be Dostoevsky.

[00:30:57] I mean, a lot of the best books I read are the books I read with my kids. They're, a lot of the funniest books I read are kids stories. I just read a young adult. I've read now eight different biographies on Steve Jobs. I'm just fascinated by Steve Jobs. Definitely a failed human being, but an incredible mind.

[00:31:17] Just, just amazing

[00:31:19] Michael: right.

[00:31:19] Danny: in what he could think. But the young adult version I read, there was at least six stories in there I'd never even heard of, and I'm like, wow. I mean, one of the best ones I ever, you know why the logo for Apple has a bite outta the apple?

[00:31:33] Michael: Why is that?

[00:31:35] Danny: It's a byte, B-Y-T-E, like a computer byte.

[00:31:39] Michael: Makes sense.

[00:31:39] Danny: That was a pretty cool story.

[00:31:41] I'm like, that's awesome. I mean, and then I'll slip that in. I do this all the time just before I go to a cocktail party, just to look intelligent, I'll go to like the children's section at the, at the library, I'll, I'll read about 10 biographies of people and I'll give people little facts like that and people think, wow, you're so well read. You must be reading. I'm like, I'm reading kids books. You know, like, and this is a big thing when I'm teaching like parents to do, I always say, you know, the research is really clear on this. It doesn't matter what you read, what matters is how much you read. It doesn't matter if you're reading James Joyce or James and the Giant Peach, people who read more, read better. Here's, here's a strategy for all the dads out there. If your son only reads Captain Underpants, let him read Captain Underpants. The little boy who reads Captain Underpants is gonna be a better reader than the little boy who refuses to read anything. Captain Underpants is the gateway drug to Shakespeare, but we gotta get the kid hooked first, you know?

[00:32:38] I had a little boy when I taught second grade, I had a boy named Kiara and Kiara's first grade teacher told me, Kiara don't know nothing. I'm like, well, thank you for that. Well, Kiara who don't know nothing comes into my classroom. This is long ago, Michael. And he comes in one day and says, Hey, Mr. Brassell, you see Barkley last night? He had 18 points and 16 rebounds. I'm like, thank you, Kiara because from that point forward, Michael, every day after lunch, I'd sit Kiara on my lap, we'd read the LA Times sports page together, and by the end of the year, Kiara was the best reader in the class. Now that kid never read anything but sports, but that's fine.

[00:33:15] He's becoming a better reader because of the sports, and that's what's gonna translate. And this is, this is the importance. So I always tell people, you know, whatever you want. If all you wanna read about is Ohio State football, read Ohio State Football. If you like reading fashion magazines, read fashion magazines.

[00:33:31] If you read computer manuals, read computer manuals. Whatever turns you on, that's what you should be reading.

[00:33:38] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I, I love that. I, I myself am a, a pretty voracious reader. I'm reading two different books right now. One more to learn and one more for entertainment purposes, right? I like reading because it allows me to (A), clear my mind, (B), be creative, right? Because now it's like I'm entering these different worlds that I've never explored before. And (C), I feel like I pull something from that. It's like it's an experience, and I learned something from there as well. Just like with your first grader who didn't know nothing when he started, like he had a curiosity. He just didn't have the world to enter into until you introduced him to the LA Times sports section. Right? Now, he found something that he can relate to, right? You met him at his level and turned him into it, it taught him something. It allowed him to escape into this world of sports, right, and probably made it more creative in the process because he learned how words come together to tell a story. And even if it is just a recap of the game from the night before, maybe it's an analysis of how the LA Lakers season is going, right?

[00:34:51] It's just like there's always something to be learned from that. And, I want to talk about parenting directly here, and I wanna ask you, like, I know you said if they're into Captain Underpants, read Captain Underpants, right? My son

[00:35:08] Danny: Hmm.

[00:35:08] Michael: Went through that phase at one point, right? My daughter went through a phase of reading this one series that had like 50 books in it, right? And this all they'd read. Great, you're reading like, as you said. What are some simple ways beyond just giving them what they're interested in, that to help kids read more, read better, actually kinda like just love reading without turning it into a battle?

[00:35:30] Danny: Yeah, absolutely. Well, this is what I do. I have one of the world's top reading engagement programs, which does exactly this shows parents how every day reading with your kid in just a couple of months, you can get the kid to read more, read better, and most importantly to love reading. So here's a couple of strategies.

[00:35:46] First of all, President Bush, Sr. signed a very important law in America over 30 years ago and said every television set sold in America has to have closed captioning. Turn on the closed captioning on the television. And people always say, well, wait a sec. If the show's in English and the subtitles are in English, what good does that do?

[00:36:03] I'm like, well, that's a fair point. Let me make a point. Have you ever watched a show with closed captioning and not looked at the subtitles? It's actually very difficult to do. Your brain is directed towards the text, and there's actual research to support this.

[00:36:17] If you look at reading scores around the world, the more kids watch tv, the lower the reading scores are in every country on the planet, except for one. The country where the kids watch the most tv also has the highest reading scores in the world. It's Finland. People always ask me, well, how can that be? I'm like, well, 'cause Finland makes really bad TV shows. And so what they do is they import all these old American sitcoms like Good Times and Welcome Back, Kotter. They dub everything in Finnish. The kids are reading all the time. So there's a quick one right there, put on the closed captioning. Ever since my kids were little, I made a rule that 'cause I think television's here to stay. I'm, maybe, I'm in the minority. I think, I think the kids will watch tv.

[00:37:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:37:02] Danny: I have no problem with television.

[00:37:03] It's, it's just a tool. All I did with the kids is you can turn on the tv, but the price of admission is you gotta bring me something to read. And so when the kids were little, they'd bring me a picture book. We'd read like a Sesame Street book or something together. Now they're all older, they'll bring me their iPad.

[00:37:21] I mean, I still have the same rule, so they'll bring me the iPad, some news story about a Florida man or some, something funny or or silly like that. We still do that. So that's another, another strategy. The other thing I do is I do book dates with my wife and my, my three kids. And so my, my oldest daughter, she's into Game of Thrones and so we're re we're going through the whole Fire and Ice series with George R. R. Martin.

[00:37:46] I'm not exactly thrilled with some of the language and situations in these books, but you know what? She likes it. I can't break my own rule. Whatever she likes, we'll read that. I mean, it's pretty sophisticated. My son, he's always into war stuff. And we love the movie Master and Commander with Russell Crowe.

[00:38:04] And so we started reading those books and I didn't know how stupid I was, Michael, until I started reading those books because I, I literally need a dictionary three times a page because there's so many naval terms and it's fa-, it's a fascinating book, but man, it's tough to get through. My youngest daughter, for some reason, she likes literature.

[00:38:24] She made me read The Great Gatsby with her. I'm like, oh, I hate The Great Gatsby. I still hate the book. I mean, reading it aloud to her, I'm like, oh, he's really gifted as a writer. He writes really nice, but I hate the story. It's one of the stupidest stories. I wanted everybody to die in that book, but we read that one.

[00:38:40] And then my wife, we read this series, it's a really cool series called The Unselected Journals of Emma M. Lyon by Beth Brower. Just great. It's about the Elizabethan England, this woman and her three guy friends, and they're great. It's like actually. I have no idea why Reese Witherspoon hasn't bought the rights to it to make it into a movie.

[00:39:01] It's really good. But what that does is it allows conversation now with all of the, I mean, I used to run a nonprofit called Real Dads Read, and I used to always challenge dads. I'm like, hey dad, you wanna know why your kids like football so much? Because that's the only time you spend with 'em. If you spent your time reading with 'em, they'd read with you

[00:39:20] Michael: Right.

[00:39:22] Danny: Because my pastor says it this way, I love it. He says, parents, you have the greatest home field advantage in the history of the planet. You could be the worst parent ever. And your kid doesn't know. To them, you're mom or dad. I'm like, oh, he's so right. It's such a accurate comment. I mean, 'cause I, same thing with teachers, like the worst teacher in the school, there are kids all love him and I'm like, eh, that teacher stinks.

[00:39:47] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. I love how you are, you've, what I'm pulling out of what you're saying is that it's more important to model the behavior, right? If you are going to get your kids to read more, you need to show them by doing, right? You gotta read yourself. And there's always a pocket of time you could find, like, yes, you might be very busy between work and home and all the activities and everything you need to do around the house, but somewhere you could find a couple minutes to read, right? It could be right before you go to sleep. It could be right when you wake up. It could be as you're waiting for your meal to cook, whatever it may be. Like there are a few minutes where you can steal to read and show your kids that reading is important to you because I think what a lot of kids get, I could tell my kids to read all day, but if they don't see that I ever read, they're gonna be like, well why are you telling me to do?

[00:40:43] You're telling me to do one thing, but you're doing something else. I'm gonna do that something else because that seems more fun 'cause that's what you seem to think is more fun. So, I love how you are purposely demonstrating for your kids and even I think sometimes, not even intentionally, but just your passion for reading. You're just reading anyway, so they see that. But there is, there's still some intention there to demonstrate, to show your kids that the importance of reading, right, because it's really easy

[00:41:15] Danny: Yeah.

[00:41:15] Michael: to just turn on the football game and just be like, all right, we're just gonna watch this all day.

[00:41:18] Danny: Kids aren't stupid. If you're dropping F-bombs all day and then you yell at your kid 'cause they start dropping F-bombs, well, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I mean, they're paying attention all the time. You know, it's like Monsters, Inc., watching, always watching. And they always are watching.

[00:41:33] Michael: Yep.

[00:41:35] Danny: And for both your, your best moments and your worst moments, too.

[00:41:39] Michael: Absolutely. So, for dads that want to be better communicators, like communicating by demonstrating is one way that the dads communicate at home, right, but when they get to work, is there a storytelling or presentation principle they can start to use that would help them be better communicators?

[00:42:03] Danny: Well, now that we have AI, I have, people are freaking out about AI. I think AI is wonderful. I think it should be more about authentic intelligence instead of artificial intelligence. And, so, one way that I used AI is I, I asked AI, I'm like, can you give me short, you know, 200-character inspirational tidbits that I can share with my kids?

[00:42:25] And so I don't do it every day. I do it on Mondays and Tuesdays where I send my kids these inspirational notes. What was the one I sent yesterday? The one I sent yesterday was in the 1930s, a young Walt Disney went bankrupt trying to create his first cartoon company. His friends told him to quit. Instead, he borrowed a few dollars, drew a cheerful mouse and whispered to himself, I hope people like him. Quote, all of our dreams can come true if we have the courage to pursue them. Walt Disney. Dream boldly even when others can't see it yet. I love you. Dad.

[00:43:04] Michael: That's awesome.

[00:43:04] Danny: It doesn't take a whole lot of time and I, and I have reminders on my calendar, on my, on my phone calendar on Mondays and Tuesdays is inspiring kids. I, I got married on December 20th, so every day at 12:20, I have an alert on my phone to tell my wife that I love her.

[00:43:21] A lot of people are like, that's not romantic. I'm like, it's actually very romantic. It gets done. You know, if I didn't write the reminder, it wouldn't get done.

[00:43:27] Michael: Right.

[00:43:28] Danny: You gotta be intentional about things. I mean, I, I think when I, what I'm getting from this interview is, there's two, two things. There's intention and priorities.

[00:43:37] Michael: Yep.

[00:43:37] Danny: And if you can do those, you'll be, you'll be better.

[00:43:39] And I, and, and don't be. I, the, the third word I would give is grace. You're gonna make mistakes. I make more mistakes than anybody. I promise you. Anybody can you, Michael, you can tell me all your mistakes, and I can one up you on all of them, you know? But, it's only a mistake. That's why I love the movie Rocky.

[00:43:59] The best part of Rocky is he takes the beating, but he always gets back up and that's such a great lesson. That's what you do. You're never gonna fail if you keep on getting back up. Be better.

[00:44:10] Michael: Absolutely. So that, that's a great motivation. That's a great reminder of kind of like what we're trying to achieve every day, right? Of just keep getting back up. Keep moving forward. Keep taking the next step in the journey. So, is there, I know you have these habits of, you know, once or twice a week you're sending these motivational messages to your kids. You send at 12:20 every day, you send a note to your wife. Is there a daily or weekly habit that dads can implement today that would make a big difference for them staying grounded, both as a professional and a father?

[00:44:48] Danny: Well, well stay grounded. Just listen to your wife tell you about all of all of your failures. For me, one of the things that really helps me is every day I do what I call a thought walk. And basically for an hour, I just walk. I'm listening to a podcast or something or a book on, on tape. And, I'm also just reflecting, I'm thinking about things.

[00:45:15] I'm thinking about, well what do I need to do? And, you know, it's just good to get some fresh air to, to move around. I'm a big believer movement that'll help you take action a lot more if you move. I mean, even with my clients, talk to any of my clients if they're ever with me in person, usually our meeting is us walking somewhere, 'cause I think better when I'm walking. And,

[00:45:37] Michael: Yep.

[00:45:40] Danny: that's been, that's been wonderful. And then another thing I do is I, I start and end my day just reading something, like 10 minutes, because, and it, you know, I start usually the day reading the Bible and I end the day reading whatever it is I'm reading, like right now, it'll sound weird, but I'm reading a great book.

[00:45:58] It's, the Total Recall, the autobiography of Arnold Schwarzenegger, and it's fa, it's fascinating. It's a fascinating autobiography. It's wonderful. I'm like, wow. And he is so, you talk about an authentic human being, he gives you all the warts in that. I'm like, wow, I can't believe he wrote that he did that, but it's, and I appreciate it.

[00:46:17] And so it's actually what I'm teaching my clients all the time: it's counterintuitive. I always tell people, stop talking about your successes. Start talking about your failures because not everybody around you succeeded, but they've all failed.

[00:46:29] Michael: Right.

[00:46:29] Danny: And the more you share your own failures, the more they're gonna see themselves in you and say, Hey, this is somebody I can trust.

[00:46:35] I mean, no, that's why nobody likes politicians because they usually just talk about everything that they're doing well. You know, I don't, I don't need to hear that 'cause I know you're full of it.

[00:46:45] Michael: Exactly. Exactly. I love the, again, the kind of the honesty behind it, right? Of, yeah it's easy to brag about yourself. It's not so easy to recognize the, the failures and be forthright about it, of like, not everything's gonna go perfect, right? And, you also mentioned that you walk every day. I think walking is, for me, one of the most effective tools.

[00:47:14] I, I've kind of like rediscovered it over the last year of walking,

[00:47:17] Danny: Nice.

[00:47:17] Michael: Right, and it's just, it'll, I will spend half my walk listening to podcasts. And the other half, I turn it off and I just think, and it just clears my mind and I, there's some sort of physiological change that is occurring when I walk, and I feel so much better the further into the walk I get.

[00:47:36] Like that first 10 minutes is the hardest 10 minutes, right? But then once you get into a groove, you get into a rhythm. There's just something there for me that clears my mind and it's always a positive outcome. And yeah, it may not be for everybody, I get that, but having that sort of habit of something that you can turn to, to give you some sort of regularity of clarity, like apologize for the poor rhyme there, but it's, you know, having something you can fall back on to kind of reset yourself is so important, especially as you're trying to figure out, well, how do I manage doing work and providing and being active and present at home for my family and for the people that, that are most important to me, right? So I wanna ask you one more question before we get into the speed round and if a dad feels stuck between providing for his family and being present with them, what's one small shift you'd encourage them to make today?

[00:48:43] Danny: Ooh. Gosh. Well, I mean, again, you're not, you're talking to a guy who loves to read. I would just spend the one small shift is just spend 10 minutes reading aloud to all the kids. Like, I love reading aloud to my kids. It's really one of the most, or I'll sing to them. They don't like the singing, but I read aloud with 'em and it's always been, it is actually, that's how I impressed my, my wife because I wasn't a Christian when we got married and I became a Christian.

[00:49:18] And I'm not like a sophisticated Christian, but now I, I look really smart as a Christian and the only reason I look smart is 'cause I used to read aloud, the Robert Schuller's Children's Picture Bible to my kids, and it would give pictures, but then would give the, the verse, and so, you know, my wife's like, oh, where, where's the story of David and Goliath?

[00:49:37] I'm like, oh, that's first Samuel 16. She's like, what? How do you know that? And I'm like, oh, 'cause I remember the picture. You know, it's kind of silly. And so it actually made me better, too. Again, I hope people get that is, you know, I'm a PhD so people think I'm so smart. I'm not that smart. I, what I've done is I've read a lot of kids' books.

[00:49:59] And there's a lot of wisdom in those kids books. Everybody's always putting down those picture books or whatever. But I'm like, you know what, Mother Goose, there's a lot to be said about Mother Goose or the, the Grimm's Fairy Tales or a lot of those nursery rhymes. There are some life lessons there that, or Aesop's Fables. These things have served me really well.

[00:50:18] So, I think the reason a lot of people don't read, Michael, is they're just intimidated because, you know, you associate reading with, you know. I mean, when I was in high school, I had a teacher and she made us read The Scarlet Letter by Nathaniel Hawthorne. And no offense to people that love Nathaniel Hawthorne, but the book is about Hester Prynne commits adultery, and so she's forced to wear an A on her chest.

[00:50:41] And I raised my hand in class and I said, can I wear a B on my chest 'cause I'm so bored reading this book? And like, it was books like that that made me hate reading, and now after I got the PhD, I had a grin from ear to ear and my wife's like, why are you so happy? I'm like, 'cause from now on I pick the books, and I pick exactly what I want to read.

[00:51:03] Nobody's telling, I, I've never understood why schools tell you you gotta read this. I'm like, why is Jane Austin any more important than reading a Taylor Swift biography? Tell me that. I mean, I'll tell you what, the kid that reads the Taylor Swift biography is probably more likely to en enjoy the Jane Austin book.

[00:51:19] Michael: Yeah, I think what I, I really appreciate about what you're saying here is that the habit of reading to your kids or reading with your kids is not just for yourself. Yes, you get a benefit. It's not just for them either. Like they get a benefit 'cause they're learning from what you're saying, but there's also this third element, this third benefit, which is that time together, that it's a bond that gets created there, right?

[00:51:46] That you, and it opens the door for more conversation, right?

[00:51:51] Danny: That's right.

[00:51:51] Michael: Because you start talking about what you're reading or what they're listening to as you read to them. And it creates these memories, these, these memorable moments that you can fall back on later as they get older. It creates new habits, but it creates something that you, a bond that you cannot break as you get older. It's like, yes, I remember that time we talked about, or you read us this particular story, right? And it's like, I will never forget the, know, what you said about, you know, The Scarlet Letter. Like, I'll never forget about that B on my chest, right? Like, those are the types of things that you look back on as your kids grow up, and it's like, yes, we always have that moment together. Nobody can take that away from us. So a, and it's a habit you can implement right now, right? Like just find, you know, the next 10 minutes with your kids, pull out a book, see what happens. Alright. I'm gonna, we're gonna go from eloquent to not so eloquent with our speed round. It's five questions. Everything about nothing. Nothing about everything. It's got nothing to do with anything, let's put it that way.

[00:52:57] Danny: Great

[00:52:57] Michael: What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:53:01] Danny: Electric Company. That's an old one.

[00:53:03] Michael: Yeah. Good tune. What was your very first job?

[00:53:08] Danny: My first job was a newspaper boy.

[00:53:11] Michael: Excellent.

[00:53:12] Danny: They don't have that anymore. I was a newspaperman.

[00:53:13] Michael: Right. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

[00:53:23] Danny: T-Rex-sized toddler.

[00:53:24] Michael: Why is that?

[00:53:26] Danny: I love the little ones. Little ones are great, and I think little ones should have the right to vote. They're great. I just love the way they think. They think totally differently. This little girl Maya, beautiful little girl. She comes up to me at recess, she's like, Mr. Brassell! Mr. Brassell!.

[00:53:41] This is Annejenay. Annejenay is Niquisha's friend. Niquisha's my friend. So that makes, that makes Annejenay my friend, too. And I'm like, wow, what a beautiful way to look at the, I mean, the kids just say the most beautiful things and you know, and most adults don't say beautiful things. They say rotten things.

[00:53:58] Michael: So true. And regardless of size, even if they are the size of a T-Rex and are overwhelming us, they, they're probably still saying great things. What's your go-to karaoke song?

[00:54:10] Danny: Karaoke? My Way by Frank Sinatra.

[00:54:12] Michael: Excellent. Another classic. Alright, last one. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

[00:54:21] Danny: We, well, well, okay. Well this is probably a weird one 'cause I, I travel around the world speaking. I spoke at a school Waikili Elementary in Honolulu, in Hawaii, and they gave me this rock that says Waikili Rocks, and I, I told the principal, I'm like, okay, I'm gonna teach the kids world geography. So I had this little blue bear, I call him Blueberry, and I take pictures wherever I'm speaking around the world with Blueberry holding the Waikili Rocks.

[00:54:47] And so the kids are constantly looking where, where's Blueberry? He's kind of like a Flat Stanley travelling the world. So, but I can't tell you how many times that TSA has given me a hard time about having a rock, and they're like, wait, is this a weapon? I'm like, my gosh. Well, this is the world we live in.

[00:55:04] Michael: That's great. Well, I appreciate this thank you so much, Danny. Before we wrap up, I would love for listeners to know how to learn more from you. If someone listening wants to go deeper into your work, whether that's around speaking, storytelling, or reading or anything else you've been focused on right now, where should they go?

[00:55:21] Danny: Well, as a thank you to you and your audience, Michael, for having me on I wanted to give everybody, what I usually do is what you were talking about in the introduction is showing people how to create better presentations. So, if you go to freestoryguide.com guide, like a tour guide, freestoryguide.com, I'm gonna give everybody their own Well Crafted Story blueprint.

[00:55:42] What this is is the actual process that my, my partner, coach Jimmy, and I take our clients through to help you create your well-crafted story. What this does for you is it takes the guesswork out of where should I put this story and why am I putting it here, and what this means for you is you now have an actual system to convert all of your audiences into actual clients.

[00:56:04] You can get that at freestoryguide.com. And Michael, I just love, this was a great time together. I learned a lot from you, and I appreciate all that you're doing and I hope everybody in the world listens to this 'cause they need to.

[00:56:16] Michael: I appreciate that, Danny. Thank you so much. It's been such a practical conversation, a grounded conversation, right, of these are things that we can implement today if we want to, and even if it's just one idea, whether that's reading for 10 minutes or recognizing what our failures are and not being afraid to tell somebody else about them or just meeting somebody where they are. There are things that we can implement today. And you shared some ideas today, I think that dads can actually use both in their work and at home, and so, I, I'm really grateful for you coming onto the show today, Danny. Thank you so much for being here and for the work you're doing.

[00:56:53] And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday and it's a quieter space to reflect on the work, life, and what really matters right now. And if this conversation resonated with you, please consider sending it to another dad who might need, who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thank you for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.

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