Doug Fleener on Making Better Work and Life Choices Without Burning Out

[00:00:00] Doug: It was a big moment when I yelled at my children to quit yelling. And, and then I kinda realized, oh my God, right? I, I, I, I'm the one, I'm the one doing it. And, uh, so I, you know, for me, I think it's, there are these, there's these moments, and I call 'em what if moments, but there's, there's these, these very moments that I get to kind of decide the next step, right?

[00:00:24] And so what typically happens is when we start, say, yelling at your kids. It's rarely about the kids, right?

[00:00:32] Right.

[00:00:32] It's about the pressure and the buildup that you're feeling. It's about that email that you got an hour ago that you're still fuming on.​

[00:00:46] Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads re-imagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm joined by Doug Fleener, an author, coach, and former corporate executive who helps people build meaningful work without losing their life in the process.

[00:01:06] Doug's lived on both sides of the work equation. He's led at a high level inside organizations and he's also intentionally redesigned his work around family, health, and presence. At home, that shift matters just as much. Doug's a dad across very different seasons.

[00:01:18] He's a father of two grown daughters and also a dad to a teenager. His wife works outside the home, which means Doug has had to be intentional about how he structures his days, protects focus, and shows up emotionally in a household where work is flexible, but never really off.

[00:01:32] Doug, welcome to the show. I'm really glad to have you here today.

[00:01:35] Doug: Thank you, Michael. I'm excited to be here and I was just thinking about how, man, I wish I had this podcast 20 years ago, but I guess we didn't have podcasts yet, so

[00:01:43] Michael: Right.

[00:01:44] Doug: the first round of kids could have been a little different.

[00:01:46] Michael: Exactly. Exactly. There's, there's always something to learn regardless of the stage of, of where we're at. So, I wanna start out today with sort of a background question for you. You've lived both sides of the work equation. You've done high level corporate leadership work. And then you intentionally redesigned your work around your family.

[00:02:08] What shifted in how you define success once fatherhood took center stage?

[00:02:14] Doug: Yeah. And that, that's a good question. I think the really, the thing is, is at center stage, right? So there's, there's fatherhood and then there's, when you really made that shift, and, you know, before kids, right? I was in corporate. I was at Bose Corporation. I was all about about the outcomes. I was all about moving up the ladder. Then I had two daughters, and, and it started to shift, but it wasn't necessarily at center stage. So I would say is the moment came when I realized that for me, it wasn't about, work-life balance, but rather work-life choices. And, and so it all for me became about choices versus balance. Because balance just felt like I really had no control, right?

[00:03:02] The emails always kept coming in. The, the phone kept ringing but the ball games were going on, and so it was really about the making the right choice at the right time.

[00:03:13] Michael: Yeah. Excellent. Yeah, an interesting way to to frame that 'cause typically we think of how you have a finite amount of time. How do you balance that time between these two big time consumers, work and family, right? And of course you have to take care of yourself at the same time, so it's like you really have three things that you're, you're trying to balance, but at the end of the day, you're right: you're making choices.

[00:03:43] Doug: Yeah, what I had found is that, you know, look, if there was a fire, there was a client who needed, there was something that was there, then that was an easy choice.

[00:03:51] Michael: Right.

[00:03:51] Doug: But, you know, one other thing is, is work seems to be, it can always be infinite,

[00:03:56] Michael: Yep.

[00:03:57] Doug: But moments with our family are very finite.

[00:03:59] Michael: Right, absolutely. That's sometimes hard to remember. Easy to forget, but it is so critical 'cause we do have a finite amount of time, and particularly with those we care about most, our family and our friends, it's like, well, at some point you do have to choose. How are you going to spend your time?

[00:04:21] And it's interesting that you take that perspective of it really is a choice because at the end of the day, that's what it is.

[00:04:27] Doug: Yeah, and I think you can actually even talk yourself through really, you know, does this need to be done? Does this need to be done by me? Does this need to be done now?

[00:04:35] Michael: Right.

[00:04:36] Doug: And, and so often, you know, I, I would find when I managed a large team, it could be done by someone else,

[00:04:43] Michael: Yep.

[00:04:43] Doug: right? Or it just didn't have to be done then.

[00:04:46] Michael: Right. Right. That makes sense. So, you're parenting across very different seasons. How has being a dad to a teenager changed the way you think about presence compared to your early years?

[00:04:58] Doug: Yeah. And, and again, right, so I'm remarried. So my, I have daughters who are 28, 26, and now I have a, a 17-year-old and so the, the seasons right is I never expected to have a teenager at this time in my life.

[00:05:16] Michael: Sure.

[00:05:17] Doug: But, you know, one of the things is it gives you an opportunity to do something different. And I think that the, but when my kids were small, right? It was about being physically present, and so I think it goes from there to being present and available.

[00:05:33] Michael: Yep.

[00:05:33] Doug: And you know, so, you know, interesting with teenagers, right? 'cause a teenager when you think they want you, they don't want you.

[00:05:41] Michael: Right.

[00:05:43] Doug: Right. And vice versa. So, so for me, it's about making sure that I am available and also going into the right mindset. You know, one of the things that clicked for me is as I was trying to, you know, again, my, my kids had gone off to college and now all of a sudden I had a teenager again. I needed to kind of change my mindset some, and it was really for me, an easy ship that I went from, you know, I have to do this, do I get to do this? And that little bit of difference really. And, and I didn't think like that necessarily with my older daughters. Not that I wasn't present.

[00:06:18] Michael: Right,

[00:06:18] Doug: but, you know, I never thought about, oh, I get to go get them in school in traffic,

[00:06:23] Michael: right,

[00:06:24] Doug: but I get to spend a few minutes with 'em.

[00:06:26] 'Cause now you know, now you wait for 'em to like, oh, I hope they text back or they call.

[00:06:30] Michael: Right. Yeah, I love how it's, again, like your framing is so critical, but it's, it's unique, like to think that you really, it's a privilege. You get to spend time with them. It's not you have to do something with them. It's those quieter moments, those smaller moments, to me, at least as a father, have been the difference makers, right?

[00:06:58] It's that time in the car picking 'em up from school or taking them to an activity. It's, you know, those in-between times where maybe you're prepping dinner or you're cleaning up, and you are just doing something together, and that's when they, the kids seem to, at least for me, the kids open up more, right?

[00:07:17] It's not when they're engrossed in a video game or playing with their friends. It's those in-between moments, and you get to be there. It's, it's something to look forward to. And it's, I, I love how you frame that in a way that it's, it's almost a privilege, right? It's, it's not everybody gets to do that, and those relationships are special and sometimes we have to remind ourselves like, that is important.

[00:07:46] Doug: Yeah, especially after, if you've gone through a rough time where, right, kids, right, kids are cranky. Everybody's cranky in the house and it's like, oh, I get to do this.

[00:07:57] Michael: Right.

[00:07:57] Doug: But, you know, but the fact is that it, it is a privilege and I think, for me, having my daughter's grown, go off to college and, and, and now live their own life, you, you now see, right, that you know, that you don't get to spend that as much time that you used to.

[00:08:15] Michael: Right.

[00:08:16] Doug: So, you know, it's getting this second chance gave me new perspective.

[00:08:22] Michael: I love that. That's such a, a critical insight, especially when you, your kids are still young and you don't, you haven't come out on the other side of it yet, right, where they're outside the house, so you don't realize like what you are going to miss. 'Cause like you said, sometimes it's, you know, the kids are cranky or things are just chaotic and busy and you just seem like, oh, I just need a break.

[00:08:45] I just need a break. But then you realize, wow, that time went by so fast, and I don't have that same amount of time with my family anymore with my kids, they're, they're grown. They're outside the house. It, it's easy to lose that perspective or not recognize that perspective until after the fact, right?

[00:09:01] Doug: Absolutely.

[00:09:02] Michael: Yeah.

[00:09:02] Doug: You know, and my, my two older daughters played travel and high school softball. And one of the things I realized one day is that there were kids on the team that maybe they had played with the girl, the girls had played with them since middle school. And I had probably never seen a parent at a game, and, and I'm not judging them, right?

[00:09:23] Michael: Yeah.

[00:09:24] Doug: But you know, that is just a moment. You, you just don't get to make that back up.

[00:09:28] Michael: Right, right. And kids notice that too, right?

[00:09:32] Doug: Oh, absolutely.

[00:09:32] Michael: Yeah. Yeah. And so I kinda wanna switch directions just a little bit and talk more about the balance of things. And many dads try to solve balance by building better systems. Where do you see that approach break down most often?

[00:09:49] Doug: Hmm. You know, I think I've tried many systems, right? So, you know how many of us can go into our phone and remember, oh yeah, that app, that app, right? That, that app. I have the advantage of working from home, and, and so for me, the system that really works for me is how I start my day. And I'm a big believer in what I just call future journaling, right? So most journaling is like, you know, looking backwards and what happened in the day and how did you feel about it and instead, I journal in the morning. Always, it's kind of a two-parter. It always starts with who I wanna be for the day. And so when my in, you know, it really sets my intentions because for me, intentions are some of the best systems, if you will.

[00:10:37] Michael: Sure.

[00:10:38] Doug: Right, so, today I wanted to be, you know, I wanted to be a good husband. I want to be a good dad. I want to be a good podcast guest. And so understanding what my intentions are, and then what are the things that need to happen during the day to have a successful day and because I start that way with all that plan, it's much easier to follow the plan.

[00:11:02] Michael: Interesting. Yeah, we, we've talked a lot about, or, I've talked a lot with other guests or other dads about their desire to journal and how it helps 'em kind of focus and process, right? But you're doing journaling in a different way, right? You're, you're projecting, you're, so you're setting yourself up, you're, you're creating a plan through your journaling.

[00:11:31] And I don't think there's a right way or a wrong way to journal, at least not that I've ever heard of, right? You have to do what works for you and it's interesting to hear how you do it. I think that there are dads there that, that will help, right? Of like, okay, writing's not really my thing, but maybe I just started looking forward, right, of what can I do next? What can I do today? I don't have to look 20 years in the future. I can, but what I really want to, what I think you're saying is giving, setting yourself up for a successful day by just outlining what your expectations are or what your hopes are.

[00:12:11] Doug: Absolutely. And then what I like to do is, circle back at the end of the day with just kind of a, a brief entry of, of how I did,

[00:12:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:12:20] Doug: you know, and for me it's about really living in the day and that's when I think you have better presence. I think you have better intentions when you're really focused on just that day and, you know, I can see what I did well and I can need to see what I can do better. And I mean I, you know, for most of us, right, we we're, we're on our laptops. We,

[00:12:39] Michael: Right?

[00:12:40] Doug: probably type more than we write nowadays.

[00:12:42] Michael: Sure.

[00:12:43] Doug: So, you know, I use an app called Day One. I don't know if you've ever heard of it.

[00:12:46] Michael: Yep. Absolutely.

[00:12:47] Doug: For me, it's a great app. And, and that's the app that I use to, again, do future journaling morning fast in the evening, and probably don't spend more than 10 minutes a day in it. I, I think, you know, I'm, I'm not out to write a journal or, you know, I mean a, a, a big novel or something.

[00:13:03] Michael: Right, right.

[00:13:03] Doug: It's really about notes.

[00:13:04] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. I think what strikes me the most is you said presence, right? Like that is the, the backing behind all of this journaling is to help you be present. And, I, that helps, I think, being present helps you achieve meaning, right? And I think as dads, we're all trying to find that, that balance, that choice between what can I do that's meaningful both at work and at home.

[00:13:35] And when you talk about meaningful work today, how is that different from the meaningful work that you did earlier in your career?

[00:13:47] Doug: Hmm. Yeah, I think I'd say the, again, the work I think I did early in my career was most of us has to work, right? We, we have to work, right? need

[00:13:57] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:13:58] Doug: money coming in, so you know, I can. So, it was about building a business that would necessarily give the family what we need.

[00:14:08] Michael: Sure.

[00:14:09] Doug: And I think over time what it became about is to build the business in a way that I could support the family and also enjoy and be part of the family. And, you know, so for me, you know, again, I go kind of go back to choices, right? So for, for many years for about 16 years. And then I did another position for a while and then back to doing again it, but as traveling for speaking. And so in those early days, I would travel anywhere for, you know, whatever, you know, I could make.

[00:14:41] Michael: Right.

[00:14:42] Doug: Yeah. And, but when I was home, I was making sure that I was present. I was at those games. I was at home for dinner, you know, those things. But then I became about more about, again, I think just making the choices that just says, right, does this help me achieve the goal of having a strong family and a strong business? And, and I think one of the things is I think people think we have to trade off. I don't think we have to trade off. I think we, we get to decide. And, and for me, the key there is owning it, right?

[00:15:11] Michael: Yeah.

[00:15:12] Doug: You can't, you can't change what you don't own

[00:15:14] Michael: Right.

[00:15:15] Doug: and, and, right. So, and, and that's something that I tell my clients all the time.

[00:15:19] You can't change what you don't own. You might think something else is, you know, you got a bad boss and it's the bad boss's fault, but you can't change the bad boss until you decide you own what's gonna be your reaction, your actions, and such.

[00:15:32] Michael: Right, right. So you kind of answered my next question, but I kind of want to lay it out for you and see if that see what your perspective is on it. In your experience, like, how does work kind of crowd out your presence at home, even with no one explicitly asking you, maybe your kids aren't asking you like, ,, can you take me to do this? Or dad, let's do this together. Or your wife may be like, Hey, let's go out on this, do this activity. But still at the same time, like you said, it's a choice, but how does work sometimes unintentionally crowd out your availability, your presence at home?

[00:16:23] Doug: Yeah, it's, you know, I, I think first it starts almost with the physical presence. I, one of the things I do is when my daughter who lives with me, I'll be her, her mother goes off to work, say at 6:30. She comes down 7:45, 8:00, so, right, so I got like an hour, hour and a half window there to get some work done, and she, she'll come walking down the stairs and the first thing I do is close my laptop. One day I'm like, oh, I hope she doesn't think I'm trying to hide something.

[00:16:54] Michael: Right,

[00:16:55] Doug: I'm looking at something I shouldn't be looking at or something.

[00:16:57] Michael: Right.

[00:16:58] Doug: Right. I realized that with my last two daughters 'cause I never really work in an office. I just work wherever I'm sitting and, and so, right?

[00:17:07] So, I think it's about, right, closing that laptop. Putting the phone down. And so for me, it just so starts with the physical part. And when you do the physical part, the mental part real, really follows. And then the other thing I think is, you know, don't try to do both at the same time. Look, if you really have something on your mind, break away. I don't know if you've ever had this happen, but you know, you think you're in a good mood, you think everything's going fine, and, and then your, your spouse says to you, what's wrong? Right.

[00:17:38] Michael: Happened to me last night.

[00:17:39] Doug: Yeah, nothing's wrong.

[00:17:41] Michael: Right.

[00:17:41] Doug: You know, well, you don't seem present. You don't seem, you know, you're not your happy self and what have you. And so the first thing you wanna do is, right, is, is well, there's something wrong with them,

[00:17:51] Michael: Right,

[00:17:52] Doug: right? But it's a signal. Now, it doesn't mean they're necessarily a hundred percent right. They bring in their half of the relationship,

[00:17:59] Michael: right.

[00:17:59] Doug: but it's something for me to at least try on and say, what is she picking up on?

[00:18:04] Or what is happening? And those are opportunities. You can either get defensive or you can again use it as a moment to, to make that shift.

[00:18:13] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. I love that perspective. I, I didn't even realize what I was doing, but you mentioned like, you know, you close your laptop screen and for the last couple years I've been working from home and, you know, I use a, a monitor connected to my laptop, and what I do realize is that when my kids do walk in, when they maybe come home from school, or if it's a day off, they come into the chat, I immediately pivot my chair.

[00:18:40] I turn away from my screen. So I, I'm not gonna like, turn my screen off, per se, but I do physically make a change, right? I physically turn my body in my chair to speak with them, to look them in the eye and, and talk to them. I didn't realize that's what I was doing, but I am making sure that I am giving the, being present and giving them the attention that they should expect from me and

[00:19:09] Doug: showing, you're showing them the priority,

[00:19:10] Michael: Right.

[00:19:11] Exactly. If there's something that is time sensitive or critical, or if I'm on a call that shouldn't be interrupted, I'll close the door and they respect that door's closed.

[00:19:21] Doug: Right.

[00:19:22] Michael: He's doing something important. Unless it's an emergency, we'll wait till that door is open again. And so there is a, there's a little bit of a back and forth, a little bit of a balance there.

[00:19:33] But I didn't recognize that is what I do. Essentially what you do, and I think it makes, hopefully it's making a difference, right? It shows you are present. You are available, right? And that, that is important to people, just like it is important for you to have people available to you, whether it's your spouse, your friends, your children, like knowing somebody that you can talk to if needed.

[00:19:54] Doug: Yeah, and I, and I actually learned when I was in working in corporate, people would come in and sit across the desk from me and we'd be talking, and I'd still be trying to look at email.

[00:20:06] Michael: Yeah.

[00:20:07] Doug: And, and I, I, I'd always been really kind of thinking I could do, you know, do five things at once well, and, and what what I realized is, you know what, even if I could do five things well, it wasn't very, it was kind of rude to that person.

[00:20:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:20:21] Doug: And that's where I learned to just turn the monitor off and, and really pay attention.

[00:20:26] Michael: Right.

[00:20:27] Doug: And, and usually I found time that way, right? The conversations could go quicker because I was really in tune with the person.

[00:20:34] Michael: Right. Absolutely. It, it does make a difference. So I wanna ask you kind of the, the, the flip side of this.

[00:20:41] You've mentioned to me previously that you've caught yourself yelling and realized something deeper was going on. Not everything is always a positive interaction, right? Everybody has emotions. Everybody shows those emotions. Why do you think that those moments of something challenging going on, of maybe catching yourself yelling or saying something you don't mean, why do you think those moments are often the real turning points for dads?

[00:21:14] Doug: Yeah. And, you know, and, and you know, what you're bringing up is, you know I've written about it in my book that, you know, for me it was a big moment when I yelled at my children to quit yelling. And, and then I kinda realized, oh my God, right? I, I, I, I'm the one, I'm the one doing it. And so I, you know, for me, I think it's, there are these, there's these moments and, and I call 'em what if moments, but there, there's these, these very moments that I get to kind of decide the next step, right?

[00:21:45] And so what typically happens is when we start, say, yelling at your kids, it's rarely about the kids.

[00:21:53] Michael: Right.

[00:21:54] Doug: Right. It's about the pressure and the buildup that you're feeling. It's about that email that you got an hour ago that you're still fuming on and and maybe, you know, you, you're about to deliver some work that you haven't gotten done in the way you want.

[00:22:08] And so, right, it's rarely about the moment. And so for me it's about the power of the pause.

[00:22:15] Michael: Yeah.

[00:22:16] Doug: Right, so, I, I, I think, and I think especially with children, and I was about to say at certain ages, but you know, I've come to realize it's just a different, you know, it's a different action, but it's almost always the same kind of thing is

[00:22:31] Michael: Hundred percent.

[00:22:32] Doug: that I, you know, that I have to pause. And then I have to decide what is the next thing for me to do. And so when, right when you yell to kids, you rarely pause and then still yell at your kids.

[00:22:45] Michael: Right, right.

[00:22:48] Doug: So, for me, it's about understanding that these are moments that are telling you something and if you just stop and pause that you can decide how to reframe and, and to move forward.

[00:23:00] Michael: Yeah, and I think there's a through line to something you said earlier, which is presence, right? That pause allows you to become present again, because typically in those situations you're losing your, your current presence, right? Something has tipped the scales for you to put you in a mindset that wants you to show aggression or yell or you know, be loud or bold, when really you've just kinda lost sight of where you are, right, and that pause gives you an opportunity to dial it back and be present again.

[00:23:36] And, and where you actually are. I think that's such a, an important point is like you said, the power of the pause. And that helps beyond just parenting, right? And everything you do when things aren't going your way or you do feel like there's just too much going on, your mind might be racing, of just like taking a moment. Focus on your breath if you need to, but something to allow you to slow things down so that you can gain control of your presence again.

[00:24:12] Doug: Absolutely, and, and I teach a little, I teach a little three step thing called the what if rule. And, and the what if rule is based on, the fact is you can always change your perspective and options,

[00:24:22] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:22] Doug: but normally what happens is and, and I say this all the time, right? My actions don't get me into trouble or create near as much of issues as my reactions.

[00:24:32] Michael: Sure.

[00:24:33] Doug: Right? When I manage my reactions, my, my, my day is usually pretty good. But you can always change your perspective and options. So, the what if rule is just a little simple three step of pause, question, go. And, and, and I think that the, the difference there is, is the, the pause starts at, but, but we have to kind of reframe or at least decide what perspective is here, and that's when you get to decide what, you know, what's really going on here. But it's, it's something that as humans we're just not used to doing, right? We're just used to reaction because, especially because of, of that moment, we either wanna move on, we want it to stop, or what have you.

[00:25:11] Michael: Right. Right. So, we, we talked a bit about some of these negative feelings, some of the, the anger, per se. Another one that a lot of dads, particularly working dads feel, and non-working dads I should say, is guilt. How do you help people turn guilt into more of this awareness that you talk about instead of letting it drain them?

[00:25:38] Doug: Boy, yeah, you know, I, part, part of my story and in my book I write about it and is, you know, I've been in recovery for about 38 years. So 38 years ago, I bankrupted a family business because of drug use, and I mean, we, when we had to sell the business and it was pennies on the dollar because I'd been stealing from the business for so long for my drug habit, and so, but that became kind of a monumental moment because it could either just keep me stuck in the past. Right, so you can use the word guilt. You can also use the word regret,

[00:26:14] Michael: Sure

[00:26:14] Doug: And, and so, so for me, the difference I think is, is the difference between looking backwards and looking forward. So, you know, look, we, we all, you know, we talk about choices, doesn't mean we always make the right choice. Right, and, and, and so sometimes we do make a choice and then we regret it or we feel the guilt or what have you. And so it's really about, well, it's about what, what, what am I gonna do differently as a result? I'm sure all heard the same, right? But the front windshield's a lot bigger than the rear view mirror. So it's about how we, you know, I think it's about what you do as a result that you can learn from it, but, it, only you get to decide if it defines you. And I think guilt can be very defining if you're not careful.

[00:26:59] Michael: Right. That's really powerful, really important way to look at things and, you know, there's still this challenge of, yes, the windshield is bigger and you, you have greater perspective to look forward than you do to look back, but it's also challenging not to overthink, right? And you focus on simplifying change, right?

[00:27:29] Reducing the overthink. Is there a perspective shift that kind of automatically or immediately lowers the pressure that, that dads feel when they're overthinking.

[00:27:43] Doug: Yeah. Look, I was thinking is right, is a lot of dads also just try to buy their way out of outta that guilt,

[00:27:50] Michael: Yeah.

[00:27:50] Doug: right? And, and, and so, for me, it's about understanding. It's not only what do I have to do different, but I think it's also understanding it's how do I have to be different

[00:28:02] Michael: Right,

[00:28:02] Doug: and right because, you know, if you repeat the same mistake over and over and over, you know, eventually, whether it's your spouse, your kids, or what have you, you're just gonna disappoint 'em.

[00:28:14] Michael: Right.

[00:28:14] Doug: Yeah. And, and for a lot of us, you know, I, I, I don't always get the lesson on the first time.

[00:28:20] Michael: Right. You and me alike.

[00:28:23] Doug: Right.

[00:28:24] Michael: yeah.

[00:28:24] Doug: But when I get that lesson, it's like, well, what can I do about it?

[00:28:28] And, and it's not repeating it.

[00:28:30] Michael: Right. Well, that makes sense. You talk about noticing moments that matter. What does that actually look like in a normal, messy typical day?

[00:28:49] Doug: Yeah. I'll go back to kind of this word of, of reaction, right? When you're in a particular I'm just gonna use the word groove, you're kind of going along and then all of a sudden something causes you to just change, and, right? And so it's as simple as someone tailgating you. I mean, I, I hate tailgaters and, right, and so what do most people do with tailgaters? They get mad and they hit the brakes. The dumbest thing you can do with someone who's close to your car.

[00:29:20] Michael: Right.

[00:29:20] Doug: Right? So I think it's about catching. So for me it's about when something shifts, that to me is that, is that kind of moment, and, and I'll go back to kind of when you start, you know, if I start my day to say, look, you know, first and foremost I wanna be a good husband and father today, but I also wanna be a good marketer. I wanna be a good business owner. But you know, sometimes I have to make those choices between them.

[00:29:48] Michael: Yeah.

[00:29:48] Doug: And, and so that to me is, it's that feeling of just that offness. I, I am not sure the exact word, right, but that to me is the moment. And, and they happen throughout the day. And here's the thing, when you start to look for 'em, you realize there's so many more than you do.

[00:30:05] Michael: So, there's those moments that just don't feel right, that, that feel off. And then on the other end of that scale, sometimes you get those moments that just, they're super meaningful, right? Like, maybe they don't mean anything to anybody else, but to you, they mean something. Like, that moment when you catch your, your partner smiling, dancing, whatever, or your child asks you to do something with them.

[00:30:36] It's hard to recognize in the moment that those are the, the meaningful ones. I'm curious, like do you, do you find those moments easily or are those moments that are just like you realize after the fact that, oh yeah, that was, that was really cool. I'm glad I was there for that.

[00:30:58] Doug: Yeah. Look, I think one of the, you know, there's definitely a down, a lot of downside to aging,

[00:31:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:05] Doug: but one of the upside to aging, right, is that you ever watch a movie, Draft Day with Kevin Costner?

[00:31:14] Michael: Kevin Costner. Yes. Yes. The football one.

[00:31:16] Doug: You know, so there, there's a scene in there where they talk about how Joe Montana is marching down the field and it's this pressure moment, and he, and he says into the and he says in the huddle, hey, is that John Candy up there in the stands? And, and, right? And so what, and then what Kevin Costner says is right, is that the great ones can slow it down.

[00:31:42] Michael: Yeah.

[00:31:43] Doug: I love that movie. Actually, it's a great leadership movie if you ever watch it, just from a leadership perspective, and so, for me, it's about slowing down, right? And so I think, you know, over time I became much more aware of them. And, and then some are patterns

[00:31:59] Michael: Right,

[00:32:00] Doug: like, you know, like if you pick your kids up at school or if you pick your kids up at someone's house, those moments are, can be really just nuggets because you start to see who they are more.

[00:32:13] You start to see their future. But if your mind is somewhere else, right, oh, I gotta get back in the traffic, or I'm running late, or what have you. So I, I think you start to see that they're there. It's just making sure, I hate to keep using the word present, but that you're really there to, that you see that, you know, it's, it's different at that moment in that car, in that second.

[00:32:36] Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. I love how you talk about slowing things down, right? It's, life is so fast paced these days and you know, we keep talking about presence and I think rightfully so. I think it's such an important part of being the, the father, the partner, the, the person we want to be, but all that comes down to is to be present, you have to slow down, right? You can't, it is really hard to run a sprint and literally do anything else at the same time, right? That's why it's hard to walk and chew gum at the same time. Imagine, you know, running as fast as you can and trying to achieve gum at the same time, or running as fast as you can and being present, being mentally available for the people that matter to you. You can't do it all at once. Sometimes you just have to slow it down and in the moment, and especially when things get overwhelming, right? Like when your mind is racing and maybe there's a challenge at work, you don't wanna bring that home and take that out on your family, but you also have to address it at work.

[00:33:50] But how do you slow it down in the moment so that you can be present for what it does mean. What is most meaningful for you? Right, so, it's a really powerful point to, to remind people that we do have to slow it down sometimes and it's okay.

[00:34:07] Doug: And, and studies have shown, right, and, and you can even look at it from this other perspective, studies have shown that most people cannot multitask as successful as they think.

[00:34:16] Michael: Right.

[00:34:17] Doug: Right? And so the minute you start trying to multitask, the quality drops in almost all areas.

[00:34:23] Michael: Right.

[00:34:23] Doug: And, you know, I, I think one of the ways to look at is you can look at your day, your, your life, whatever, right, are all these different lanes, and, right, and then, so sometimes I just need to be in the dad lane. Sometimes I need to be in this lane, but if I'm in, you know, but if I'm trying to drive between two lanes, I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm gonna cause an accident or I'm gonna get stuck behind someone. So I think that's, it's, you know, sometimes just tell yourself, hey, just choose a lane.

[00:34:51] Michael: Absolutely. I think the other challenge too is that even if you are actively present for your family in the moment, but you have these other things on your mind, so maybe you're in the car with your family and you're going somewhere and your kids are asking you a question whatever it may be, and, at the same time, you're thinking, okay, well, when I get home, I need to do the laundry, I need to take out the trash, and I need to reply to these three emails I just got. If you're thinking six steps in front of you, you're not present anymore, right? So, you have to remember sometimes it's okay to slow it down. You will get to those things when you get to those things. You can't take out the trash when you're not home.

[00:35:38] Doug: Right.

[00:35:38] Michael: Right? You shouldn't be responding to emails while you're driving.

[00:35:43] Doug: Right.

[00:35:43] Michael: I appreciate you bringing this up of like, in the moment, just slow it down. You can't do everything at once, so it's like, okay, as Joe Montana is like going, okay, we have a second before this play is going to start.

[00:35:55] We've got time on the play clock. I am curious. Is John Candy up there? Like, you know, let's lighten it up a little bit. Let's slow it down for everybody. We have the time to do that. Sometimes we just don't realize it. So, I love how you are melding speed with presence, right, of slowing it down to make yourself available in the moment and choosing which lane to be in in a particular moment. Like you said, you can't be in two lanes at once. That's dangerous.

[00:36:28] Doug: Right.

[00:36:29] Michael: Yeah,

[00:36:29] Doug: Yeah. You know, and, and one small thing I do though is I often keep a, a little, I'll take a little eight and a half by 11, fold it up a few times, and I just have kind of a list going. So, one of the things I find sometimes is just writing down. I mean, I did it yesterday, recycling. Right. I mean, it's in front of me.

[00:36:47] I know I gotta do it.

[00:36:48] Michael: Right.

[00:36:48] Doug: But just by writing it down, I can almost put it into a different compartment of when it's ready.

[00:36:53] Michael: Right.

[00:36:54] Doug: And, so, I, I think, I think if you don't write it down or you don't go something with it, sometimes that's the thing that can really just kind of keep it getting in your way.

[00:37:04] Michael: Right, right. Well, there's a famous phrase of you're not writing it down to remember it later. You're writing it down to remember it now. Right. But really you're doing both. It's.

[00:37:16] Doug: Right?

[00:37:17] Michael: By, by writing it down to remember it now, you do remember it later. Alright, so before we get to the speed round, I got a couple more questions I wanted to, to run by you.

[00:37:30] How do you personally decide when to lean into work and when to step away without replaying the decision later?

[00:37:39] Doug: I, I talked earlier is right, is, kind of, a little decision tree or if you will,

[00:37:46] Michael: Sure.

[00:37:46] Doug: And I think the big question just is, you know, what does this need to be done now? And, and what I find is that, I think one of the things when, when you're, before you have kids. You don't even have to worry, right?

[00:37:59] Because it's, it's pretty much just your life and so, you know, and so you could work late, say you wanna work late in the night because you know, and you meet a lot of people. Well, I don't like to have anything left on my desk. I don't wanna have anything to do at the end of the day. And that's okay before kids. Right? So, I, I think, but once you have kids, I think it has to be, start to be a decision. And, you know, I, I had a case once where when I was at Bose, I, I ran this retail division and I met a guy, I mean, I never met a guy, but I was, I was, I had a car in the shop, so I was riding with this guy and, and, and I don't know, you know, into the days at five o'clock, but we left at about six. And he said to me, he goes, you know, I just, I wanna go home at five, but I just don't like how it looks. And right?

[00:38:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:38:52] Doug: He wanted to get home to his family

[00:38:53] Michael: Right.

[00:38:54] Doug: And maybe I had kids yet, but I was still in kind of total work mode and, and one of the things I, I started doing after that is I always left at 5:30. Never stayed past that. If I had to go home and work a little bit, if that's really what had to be done,

[00:39:12] Michael: Right.

[00:39:12] Doug: but, right, but it, it's really, again, I, you know, coming back to this, it's about the choice. Does this need to be done? Does this need to be done now?

[00:39:20] Michael: Yep.

[00:39:20] Doug: And I think you gotta get comfortable with just saying is, you know what, I may have to pick this up again tomorrow.

[00:39:27] Michael: Right. So you're, you set a boundary, right, and that's at the end of the day, like, yes, okay, I'm gonna be out at 5:30. If I have to do something later, I will, but that's my boundary. Like, that is time to go home, be with the family, do those things that recharge myself and help you know, those that, that matter to me.

[00:39:50] Is there a, a boundary that dads you think can put in place easily? So, you know, for some people maybe it's, you know, maybe it is just shutting off at a certain time every day. Is there a boundary you recommend for dads to, that really has a chance of sticking for them that will help them better balance or make better choices between their, doing their work and being present for their family.

[00:40:19] Doug: Yeah. You know, and I, I think one of the challenges with, you know, getting that balance in there, right, is, is that work is always louder, even though you think your kids are really loud, right? So, you know, but work is always louder. So, look, I think nowadays, and it's not one of the hardest to do is, is you just gotta put in some time bounds on, on, on what your, on your phone. And, I mean, really that's the biggest one 'cause the minute you peek at your mail, right, it just, it, it becomes a total distraction.

[00:40:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:52] Doug: And, you know, I'm not saying, as, you know, look and God bless the, the, the dad and go home and put his phone in a drawer at 5:30 and just not pick it up till morning.

[00:41:00] There's not many of us, right, who have that ability.

[00:41:04] Michael: Right.

[00:41:05] Doug: But if I can put a, an embargo or whatever you wanna call it just says, you know what, between 5:30 and 7:00, I'm just not, you know, I'm not gonna check my email.

[00:41:14] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:15] Doug: You know, and I, I, and choose maybe not to text people back and yeah, your, your priorities are, are really determined by your action.

[00:41:23] You know, your priorities aren't, aren't what you say they are. It's, it's really right. It's what

[00:41:27] Michael: we do. Yeah.

[00:41:29] Doug: you do. So, for, so as hard as it is to say, I think for most people, right, it's their phone.

[00:41:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:34] Doug: Even if the kids are on the phone.

[00:41:36] Michael: Right, right.

[00:41:38] Doug: But, you know, maybe at least avoid the work email.

[00:41:41] Michael: Yeah. And it's such an obvious one, too, that, you know, I asked you the question, I hadn't thought, I wasn't thinking about devices, but end of the day, like it is an obvious one, and people spend, in this day and age, so much more time on their phones than than they ever have before.

[00:41:57] Doug: Yeah, my, my daughters were visiting from over Christmas from outta state. One lives in Colorado, one lives in Chicago, and, and so there have been other times when they come over to the house, and they stay with their mother, but when they're in town and, and those and right, we're all on our phones.

[00:42:13] Michael: Right.

[00:42:13] Doug: And instead we played a game of Password, and, you know, just the connectivity of the family was so different.

[00:42:22] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:22] Doug: And, and you know, the game is one thing, right?

[00:42:25] But it's everybody keeping their phones down was the other.

[00:42:28] Michael: Yeah. Yeah, I've noticed the exact same thing in our house. Game nights are some of the best nights we have, and they're, they are so important to opening up that line of communication. There's more laughing, there's more smiling going on, and more connecting. And those are the, the nights you remember.

[00:42:48] Doug: Mm-hmm.

[00:42:49] Michael: For us at least. Whereas the nights where we're just hanging out on the couch, you know, everybody's on their phone. There might be a TV playing in the background, like, nobody remembers those nights, but those game nights, man, those, those create some deep connections.

[00:43:03] Doug: Yeah. And look, and I think there's probably some dads who are watching right now saying, I don't have time for that.

[00:43:07] Michael: Right.

[00:43:08] Doug: And, and, and the fact is we'll go back to right is the only way to have that time is you make the time.

[00:43:15] Michael: Yep, exactly.

[00:43:16] Doug: You know, so right. It's a choice, it's a decision,

[00:43:19] Michael: right,

[00:43:19] Doug: and it's ownership. And it's got a high payoff.

[00:43:20] Michael: Right. And you don't have to start. Right, and you don't have to start huge either. You don't have to start with, you know, a four hour board game plus three other games. Like you can start with a five minute card game, and if you can't make five minutes for your family, you have some other balance, presence issues that you need to, to address first.

[00:43:42] Doug: And I, and I, and I think you make a great point. It's right, I think right? When, when we talk about change in growth, we always think about this big movement and, but how does big movement happen, right? It, it happens in a first step, in a second step, and what have you.

[00:43:57] Michael: Exactly.

[00:43:58] Doug: Right, and it's really, when you get down to it, it's really, it's what you do in the day.

[00:44:03] Michael: Yep, exactly.

[00:44:05] Right.

[00:44:05] Doug: If, if, if what I do today will start to make the change for tomorrow.

[00:44:09] Michael: Right. Right, exactly. You, you have to take it one step at a time. You, you only have two feet anyway, so you can't, like, right, you're not gonna leap ahead and magically create all this time, this perfect balance in life. But you can start to make small changes and those small changes gonna add up and those small changes gonna have big impacts.

[00:44:34] Doug: Absolutely.

[00:44:35] Michael: And sometimes it's hard to recognize it until you do it, right, but I, I can say from experience, small changes can have big impacts. And it's something you can just, you can do today, right? Like you can find five minutes, maybe your schedule is packed today, but you can schedule five minutes for tomorrow to ask your kids a couple questions, do something with the spouse.

[00:45:00] Do something for yourself. Like you have to take care of yourself, too. So, like, you can find that time. Nobody's time is infinitely blocked, right? There is, there are gaps in your, in your day. You have to, you just have to find them, but you have to be willing to do that.

[00:45:19] Doug: Right.

[00:45:19] Michael: And the reward on the other side is huge, right?

[00:45:22] When you do get those moments and you get to spend them with the, the people that that matter most to you, it. There's nothing better, right? Like you typically aren't you. You wanna do work that you're passionate about and that is meaningful to you, but it's not necessarily what's going to bring you the most delight, the most happiness at the end of the day.

[00:45:43] Yes, it can bring you satisfaction, it should bring you satisfaction. And you'll find that ideal job that, that brings you that satisfaction. You know, hang onto that. But what's more meaningful than that, right? And that is, I think for most dads, starts with the family, starts with their friends, starts with their close circle, and finding time for that will have the biggest impact.

[00:46:05] So, I love how you, you know, you started this with, it was playing a game of Password, right?

[00:46:11] Doug: Right.

[00:46:11] Michael: And now it's like, okay, yes. Think of all these great things that can happen just by a simple game. And it doesn't have to be something that takes all day.

[00:46:20] Doug: No, and I think a lot of times I think, you know, you, you, I think you don't even realize sometimes until later that's how you know how big those moments were. And you know, again, with, you know, with having two grown daughters and, and a teenage daughter, right, is you, you start to realize, just wow, you know, how special those moments were. And, and, and, and as a result with this, with my teenager now, I get, I probably, you know, other daughters probably look at like, well, why do you do so much with her? Well, I learned,

[00:46:54] Michael: Yeah.

[00:46:55] Doug: and so, you know, I'm not, I'm not advocating going out and getting a new family by any means, but know that there's a, there's a high payoff for the changes that we just talked about.

[00:47:09] Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. Alright, speaking of games, let's move into our speed round. It says nothing to do with anything. Just five quick questions. And I think it'll be fun. You, you ready?

[00:47:25] Doug: I am ready,

[00:47:25] Michael: Alright, what's the first kid show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:47:29] Doug: Oh, definitely the song to Arthur on, on, on PBS, not the drunken Arthur movie. Right, but you know, there's a line in there that says you can learn to work and play. So I've

[00:47:41] Michael: Yeah.

[00:47:42] Doug: decided that maybe the Arthur theme song should just be my morning song, but if you get a chance to listen to it, it's actually good advice for all of us.

[00:47:49] Michael: Yes, for sure. What was your very first job?

[00:47:53] Doug: Retail. So I worked in a a, a store called Turn Style, kinda like a Target,

[00:48:00] Michael: okay,

[00:48:00] Doug: and I kinda learned how to work in teams and, and, and build friendships at work and and what it means to give service.

[00:48:08] Michael: Very cool. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

[00:48:15] Doug: Oh, definitely a T-Rex toddler only 'cause I think they can, I think they could still destroy less.

[00:48:24] Michael: Yeah, so it's all about managing risk, right?

[00:48:26] Doug: Yeah, exactly.

[00:48:28] Michael: What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you'd pick if you were forced to?

[00:48:33] Doug: Well, in the past I would've said it was a Jimmy Buffett song. I used to love listening to Jimmy, but I was in South Africa, speaking event down there and they did the Piano Man, and it was so fabulous listening to them do Piano Man, that I would definitely do Piano Man.

[00:48:51] Michael: Excellent. Good choice. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

[00:48:59] Doug: And this probably happens more often, but I you know, I'll, I'll carry a post-it note that has a very important thing to do, but I have no idea what it means.

[00:49:10] Michael: Sure. That's a good reminder. Physical reminder though, right?

[00:49:13] Doug: Yeah. And I'm just always worried. It's like, what if it really is something I had to do, but I'm guessing I would've, I guess I've figured I would've known it.

[00:49:20] Michael: Right, right. Alright, Doug, I appreciate this. Before we wrap up, I wanna give you a chance to share where people can go to find you if, you know, this conversation really resonated with them. I, I think there's gonna be a lot of people that, that it does. I know you spent a lot of time helping people slow down their thinking, make clear decisions, design work that doesn't quietly crowd out what matters at home. If a listener wants to keep exploring these ideas or go deeper with your work, where should they start?

[00:49:45] Doug: Yeah. So, so I have a new book Start with What If, and if you go to startwithwhatif.com and there we'll give you an opportunity to download a 44-page excerpt. I give you the complete for foundation and framework. So, the book, the first five chapters are all about the framework and how to apply what we talked about today, and I, I give that away for free. And the rest of the book, if you'd like to purchase a book, is about how to practice it over a 52 week period.

[00:50:20] Michael: Excellent.

[00:50:21] Doug: And, so, if you go there, you can download and also will be links if you wanna purchase a book on amazon.com, on Amazon, Barnes & Noble, bookshop.org, and other booksellers.

[00:50:31] Michael: Awesome, awesome. Everyone should check out that book. It's, it's gonna be a lot of great insight there from you. Doug, thank you again for this conversation. I really appreciate the honesty, the perspective, the way you kind of talked about presence in a way that it feels real, right? It wasn't theoretical.

[00:50:47] And I know a lot of dads listening are gonna hear themselves in what you shared. And I, I'm hoping they're gonna walk away with something that they can actually use, they can implement today. So I appreciate you being here. Thanks again. And thank you for the work you're doing. And finally, if you're a dad listening to this and trying to figure out what comes next, maybe you're in between jobs starting something new or just looking for meaning in your work, head to gaptogig.com. Subscribe to the Gap to Gig Newsletter. If you took something valuable from this episode, send it to a dad you think could you also benefit. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. And this is Gap to Gig, where we're building work that fits your life, not the other way around.

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