Julia Toothacre on Redefining Meaningful Work Through Life’s Seasons

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Julia: So, the one thing that dads need to think about is kids are a season, and sometimes it's a long season, and we have multiple kids, right? But it's a season nonetheless. They're not always going to be infants. They're not always going to be toddlers. They're not always going to not be able to communicate with you.

And so as those seasons shift, your opportunities shift. And I think that's where a lot of times we get stuck in either I can't make a change because of this, or this is gonna, you know, throw off everything, or I need to make a change because now I have all these kids and I don't wanna put more pressure on my partner.

Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions.

Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your [00:01:00] host, Michael Jacobs, and today's guest is Julia Toothacre. Julia is a career coach and strategist with more than a decade of experience helping professionals take real ownership of their careers. She's the founder of the Ride the Tide Collective, where she works with high performing professionals who look successful on paper, but feel stuck, burned out, or misaligned behind the scenes.

Before launching her coaching practice, Julia spent eight years working in university career offices helping students, alumni, and mid-career professionals navigate transitions, growth, and big career decisions. She's taught career development courses at Azuza Pacific University, USC, and LinkedIn Learning, and her work's been featured in places like Newsweek, Forbes, and Yahoo Finance.

Julia, I'm excited to chat with you today. Welcome to the show. I'm really glad you're here.

Julia: Oh, thanks for having me, Michael. I'm excited to be here and I, I don't know if anybody noticed, but I'm not a dad, so I hope, I hope your audience is okay with that.

Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. You don't have to be a dad to have, to bring something to the table that dads can learn from, right?

Julia: I love that.

Michael: There's unique experiences from a lot of different [00:02:00] people. Unique knowledge that doesn't matter where that knowledge comes from, if it's useful and helpful, we wanna be able to share it.

So, I'm glad you're here, and I know we've got some interesting stuff to talk about today. And kind of where I wanna start, I wanna start broad and work our way towards what dads can actually do with some of this knowledge that you have. And, you know, a lot of dads that listen to this show, they're trying to do work that matters to them while also fully showing up at home.

They're ambitious, they're capable. They often feel like they're carrying like competing responsibilities at the same time. So, when you hear the phrase "meaningful work," what do you think most professionals misunderstand about it, especially once they become parents?

Julia: Yeah, I think most people think that meaningful work is direct impact to a type of person or a person or a cause of some kind. And I see that happen a lot, especially in midlife mid-career, where people start to go, I wanna do work that matters. And I'm like, well, what does that mean? You know [00:03:00] that, that can mean a lot of things, but I think it really gets construed because they're trying to be parents, and you know, be good examples to their kids,

Michael: Sure.

Julia: but maybe they're doing work that they're not currently connected to or they haven't found the connection to, and that creates that disconnect for them, where they're like, I'm not doing meaningful work, and that's what I want to do.

Michael: Right. When you say it doesn't have a connection to them, I assume that you're talking about like personal connection, right? Like something that they are interested and proud of, whatever it may be, something they can connect with on a personal level. Would that be a, a fair assumption?

Julia: Yeah, so, some people, they connect with the type of work they do, so the function of the work. They get connection and meaning from working with a team, you know, all of that. It doesn't really necessarily matter to them what the external work of the business is,

Michael: Right.

Julia: so they find that meaningful connection [00:04:00] in the internal of the business. But some people want that direct, you know, to a cause, to a person type of connection, and that's a little bit different. And then it has different considerations as well, depending on which path you wanna take with it.

Michael: Sure. That's a great point. It, it's so easy when we talk about meaningful work, it's so easy to talk about like the cause nature of that work, of like, what am I doing for the greater good? But there's also those other like more personal elements of do you like to be in person with working within a team?

Or, you know,

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: are you looking for something that is mentally stimulating and challenging? Like, maybe you are a numbers person and you really want to

Julia: Yes.

Michael: go deep into those numbers. So, it's more than just like what the end result is.

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: But, oftentimes, it's the process to get there. Like, that also can be, bring meaning to, to your work.

Julia: Yes, absolutely.

Michael: And so you work with [00:05:00] a lot of high performing people who look successful on paper, but they feel stuck, right? So what does that stuck feeling usually point to beneath the surface?

Julia: Oh, this is one of those, it depends, answers as it, it always depends, right? It

Michael: Of course.

Julia: depends on the person, but usually something has jarred them in some way. It's just what has jarred them will vary depending on the person. So, for some people, it's kids. It's family, like some family situation changes. Some of my clients are caregivers to their parents and it, you know, that changes what they want, what they're capable of. I think sometimes it's something that happens at work, right?

You know, you get a bad review or, you know, a project fails or something. Sometimes we make up the problem that we think we're having,

Michael: Right.

Julia: and there's not actually a problem going on, but we [00:06:00] have some internal work that we have to do in order to move past some of that. Sometimes you get let go, you know, whether it was something that was purposeful that, you know, needed to happen or it was just a downsizing of the company. There are a lot of things that jar people especially when they're high achievers, and just depending on what it is will depend on how you respond and what that looks like moving forward.

Michael: Sure. So, you said something interesting to me that like not all of the reasons for feeling stuck are external. That sometimes we make it up in our own minds, right?

Julia: Yes.

Michael: And it's like, okay, maybe we got a bad review, or maybe, you know, a client didn't come through that we expected to, and it's, we make it out to be worse than it is, or maybe just somebody hasn't gotten back to us in a, a timely manner, right?

And, so, to me, it seems like, yes, there [00:07:00] are those, you can get stuck in your job because there's no room for advancement or you feel stuck because you're just not interested anymore, or it's not stimulating anymore. You don't have the time for it, but sometimes we just, we put it on ourselves, right? And,

Julia: Yeah.

Michael: you, you know, and you work with people that are, tend to be high performing, but they still do that to themselves as well.

What kind, how do they fall into that trap?

Julia: I think high performers are the hardest on themselves, more than anybody. I think a lot of us have a perfectionist streak that runs through us whether we've tried to deal with it or not, you know, that's something I've been working on for years and it still comes up in, in sometimes just unexpectedly. I, I don't know that it's gonna happen. So, I feel like we are so hard on ourselves because that is just ingrained into who we are. And a lot of times it takes an external [00:08:00] person or situation for us to step back and go, oh, wait. This really is not that bad, and everybody messes up sometimes and not everything is gonna go our way and we couldn't have, you know, solved this issue or there, there are so many things, but I think we, we are so hard on ourselves

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: that a lot of times we internalize so many situations, and we change the story from what is true to how we're feeling in whatever way that is.

Michael: Absolutely. So, fatherhood kind of changes how risk feels, right, because now we've got more, we have human lives beyond our own to take into consideration. From your perspective, how should dads think differently about career risk once kids enter the picture?

Julia: Yeah, so, the one thing that dads need to think about is kids are a season, and sometimes it's [00:09:00] a long season if you have multiple kids, right? But it's a season nonetheless. They're not always going to be infants. They're not always going to be toddlers. They're not always going to not be able to communicate with you. And, so, as those seasons shift, your opportunities shift. And I think that's where a lot of times we get stuck in either "I can't make a change because of this," or "this is going to, you know, throw off everything," or "I need to make a change because now I have all these kids, and I don't wanna put more pressure on my partner."

I want to show up. I want to, you know, be more present than I am because of the job that I have. So, it really depends on the season that you're in. And, then, honestly, if you're in a partnership, the, the partnership that you have and what is needed between the two of you to manage those kids. Because sometimes those career opportunities [00:10:00] come up, and you have to say no because it's just not gonna work. Or you take the leap and you say yes, because you're, you and your partner have talked about it, and you do think it's worth it, and there are gonna be some trade-offs for that. So, that's what I would think about when you're trying to look at those, those things.

Michael: Absolutely. I love how you talk about it in seasons because there is, yes, seasons are temporary, and they come and they go, but they also allow you to focus, right? Because, like, with each new season, you have to adapt, right? Just like the, you know, the four seasons of weather, you're gonna adapt in the wintertime, you're going to dress differently.

You're going to, you know, spend your time outside differently than you will do in the summertime, assuming you live in a climate where that changes from season to season, but it's the same thing with working and parenting, right? Of like, [00:11:00] yes, the, you know, you start out with no kids perhaps when you start working, then you have kids, and as they go through different life stages, they have different needs, different requirements, different requirements of your time.

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And if you're able to recognize what season you're in, you can make decisions that are, will help you figure out what the right balance is in the moment, or, right, what the right alignment is in the moment. And looking at it as, yes, this is a season. It's not going to last forever. So, even if this is a more difficult season or if it's an easier season, knowing that things are going to change. Your kids are going to get older. They're going to be less dependent on you, hopefully, and you will be, you'll have your time.

The way you manage your time will differ

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: within those seasons, and it's going to ebb and flow and that's, you know, part of life, but recognizing that, okay, this is just a season. So,

Julia: Yes.

Michael: if we are in one of those challenging seasons, maybe we've got, [00:12:00] I was talking to somebody yesterday with five kids, right? And they're within like six years or something of age, and it's like, okay, well that's a very challenging season.

Have a full-time job. Your partner has a full-time job, and you've got, you have to manage five kids and there's a snow day. And it's like, okay, what do you do? Right, but temporary. At some point, those kids are gonna be adults, right, and now you, you know, it's a, you are making different decisions, right?

So it's really interesting. I, I love how you just put it as like, look at it as seasons,

Julia: Yeah.

Michael: And...

Julia: It makes it less permanent when you're trying to make career choices.

Michael: Right.

Julia: You know, and then I think, too, sometimes people really overlook, boring jobs,

Michael: Sure.

Julia: you know,

Michael: Yep.

Julia: repetitive jobs. I know I don't like jobs like that. That really does not work well with my personality. But I think when I think about a season, when my son was very young, I needed the [00:13:00] repetitiveness.

I needed something where I didn't really have to think about it. It

Michael: Right.

Julia: just came to me because it was something I had done for so long and it was a season, and then I was like, okay, I'm done with this, and I need more. And then now what's the next thing?

Michael: That's a great example, especially because that shows like if you can recognize the season, you can better focus on the decisions you need to make, right? So, you know, oftentimes, especially in this current day and in age where we have a lot of economic uncertainty, jobs are getting tighter and tighter.

We're putting a lot more stress on ourselves. I think overall, in general, right now in our culture, that it, it's so easy to get overwhelmed by what needs to get done and what you want to do. And it's hard to achieve both, right? Of making sure you take care of the needs, but also doing things that are fulfilling for you, meaningful for you.

But by recognizing what season you're in, you can maybe focus a [00:14:00] little bit better of like, okay, this is the right decision for now,

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: knowing that the next season, you know, I have a different expectation, and I can then move my focus to that, the next season. So, great example. I appreciate that.

Julia: Yeah, no problem.

Michael: So, you also talk a lot about values alignment in your work and how can a dad tell a difference between a job that's kind of temporarily demanding and one that fundamentally conflicts with his values?

Julia: Yeah, so this, this is another seasons conversation

Michael: Sure.

Julia: because that, that temporary misalignment, it's gonna be temporary. It's gonna happen for a little bit. Maybe you see something happening, maybe it's a client you don't really care for, or there's just something happening in the organization that you're like, I don't love this, but I know this has an end, so it's gonna be okay. I think when it becomes a real values conflict is when it's consistent over time, and [00:15:00] it's the same feelings. And, I know, like sometimes people don't wanna dig into the feelings, but you know. You can feel it in your chest. You can feel it in your gut. You know that things are not right. You're questioning everything going on around you,

Michael: Sure.

Julia: you know, and that's a really good signal to, I don't know if this is the right environment. There's some type of misalignment going on, whether it's values or it could just be your personality doesn't align well with the organization or the team. You know, we see that happen a lot when we have leadership changes.

Michael: Sure.

Julia: You know, everything was fine, and then a new leader comes in and now nothing is fine

Michael: Right.

Julia: because that leader leads in a different way, and they have different expectations.

They respect different skills than maybe what you bring to the table, and so now everything feels uncomfortable. That's, when you get that feeling, that's when you want to take [00:16:00] that step back and go, okay, what is this? Is it permanent? Is it temporary? And what is it really impacting?

Michael: I like how you, there's like this time element to it, right, of like, if it happens once or occasionally, like maybe you just get through it. It's a temporary season, but if it's consistent and if it goes on, you know, many times over a short period of time, that may, that's kind of like a, an easy identifier for what happens.

But what happens when like you do identify a situation, maybe like you said, a new leader comes in to lead the organization and you just don't align with the direction they're taking the company or the organization? What do you do then? I mean is, you know, especially like, it's not just so easy just to like, leave your job, find another one, right?

So it's like, how do you kind of manage that once you made that recognition of, well, this might not be the right environment for me?[00:17:00]

Julia: Yeah, so I will always encourage people to try to work within the situation they're in, especially if it's a new change. Because a lot of times the change is just what jars us, and so many companies are terrible at change management, so you don't get to go through the proper steps for change management to make it okay. And that's what ends up being really hard for us. And then we just, you know, quit one day, which is not the answer. We're not doing that in this economy. And, so, I think that's where I always want you to try to make it work. And, like, this is where I'll work with somebody from a coaching perspective to make sure that they're reading the situation appropriately. You know, kind of hearkening back to what we said earlier, a lot of times we make up stories in our head. And a lot of that comes from intense emotion. When we're talking about change, we're talking about intense emotion, [00:18:00] frustration. We're feeling other people's emotions, like there's a lot going on when that happens.

And so we want to, again, take that step back and go, okay, can I manage, what is the worst thing happening right now? Am I gonna get fired? Is that a possibility? Because that's a different stressor. And so,

Michael: Right.

Julia: it's really looking at the situation realistically and going, what is the truth? What is actually happening? What are my feelings? You know, what am I projecting onto the situation? But I will tell you, I have worked with a lot of clients who do not want to leave a situation even though they know it's not healthy. They know it's not a good situation, so, they hire me. We do career management. I'm wor-, I worked with somebody for a couple of years before they finally were like, I need to get out of here.

And I was like, thank you, you.

And it's [00:19:00] not that we didn't have those conversations. It's that they were not in a place to leave. You know, there were a lot of different factors. One was pay and title. The pay and title were the two biggest factors of why that person didn't wanna leave. And I find that for most people, that's what keeps them in a situation.

Michael: Sure.

Julia: And, so, you know, if you do need to change, we can take the steps to do that where it's not jarring for you,

Michael: Right.

Julia: but you have to try to manage in the current situation because if you don't know what those triggers are for you, you're gonna leave, go to a new situation, and if the same type of thing happened, you're gonna have a similar reaction, and then that's not going to be helpful either.

Michael: Right. You said something really interesting to me, which was that there's, oftentimes, we project these layers of emotion onto to these situations, right? Especially when we're in challenging times or things are kind of conflicting with our [00:20:00] values. It's so easy to, to make decisions with emotion, and it's hard to separate that, right, on your own.

You know, it's hard to see it when you're inside the, the bubble that you've created. And, you know, I've often found that I certainly make decisions with emotion or I certainly will be swayed by my emotions, but if I can figure out a way to take a step back, and usually that means time, right? Of like, okay, maybe I need to sleep on it. You know, maybe I don't make the decision in that moment. If I recognize that this is a stressful situation, I'm probably making, I probably got some emotions that are battling, and if I can separate my, it's hard to separate myself personally from it, but time is kind of that one way to get a buffer there.

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: And then obviously talking to someone like yourself where you can, somebody from the outside who can come in and be like, okay, I see what's really going on here.

Yes, this is your situation, A, B, and C, [00:21:00] but you're forgetting about D, E, and F, which is all your, all these emotions that are ruling the situation, right? And if you strip those back, here's, it's really about,

Julia: Yeah.

Michael: right? And so...

Julia: And I'll, I'll say too, this was not like a plug for my coaching either. It does not have to be a coach that you

Michael: Right.

Julia: have these conversations with. It can be a partner, it can be a good friend, it can be a mentor, sometimes even a coworker, because if you trust them and you all are in the same situation, you know, that can be really cathartic for you to actually have that conversation go, okay, I'm not crazy.

Michael: Yep.

Julia: This person is actually acting that way, right?

Michael: Yep.

Julia: So, there are a lot of ways for you to work through this that don't require somebody like me. So I just have to put that out there.

Michael: Fair point. That's it's a great point of like, you have a lot more resources around you than you ever really realize, right? And, typically, they don't cost money, right? You can talk to your partner or a trusted friend or coworker, like you said, to maybe just get an [00:22:00] outside perspective. Somebody's not in that specific situation, in that moment to be like,

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: slow down here, you know?

Let's strip away the emotions and let's look at what the, the facts of the actual matter are

Julia: Yeah.

Michael: And see where, you know, where we can realign so that you're, you can make a smarter decision going forward. You know, and one of the things that when we get caught up in these emotions is it's easy to burn ourselves out, right? Like we will stick in a situation and just keep doing it and doing it, and then eventually, , can't take it anymore, right? And you've told me before that you've lived through burnout yourself, right? And, so, looking back, what were the kind of the early warning signs that you ignored that dads listening right now should be paying attention to?

Julia: Yeah, one of the biggest signs for me that I realized after the fact was just how tired I was. And the lethargy that came with burnout. So, and this was unfortunately, or [00:23:00] fortunately, my burnout happened before I had a child, so I can't speak to that, but I remember coming home on the weekends and just did not want to do anything. I was basically a shell of myself. Aside from that, I was also very quick tempered because I, I was at my limit every single day emotionally, and so a lot of things just set me off really, really quickly, and I feel like parents would probably relate to that, that the most. You know, you kind of get this overstimulation, right?

Like you're at work and you're trying to manage so many things. Plus, you just have this weight of burnout on you, which you might even not recognize at this point. Then you go home, and you are just bombarded the second you walk in the door, and that can happen to moms or dads, right? It's just the overwhelm of [00:24:00] having a family, and it

Michael: Right,

Julia: doesn't mean you don't love them.

It doesn't mean that they're doing anything wrong. It's just you have this overwhelm built up throughout the day, you get home, and then you're faced with even more overwhelm,

Michael: Right.

Julia: and so, you really hit the limit of what you can handle. And, I think parents that can really hold it in, like I commend you so much, but sometimes we can't, you know? And, unfortunately, sometimes we let that out at the wrong people at the wrong time.

Michael: Right.

Julia: But I found with my own kid, you know, stepping back and apologizing is really great in that scenario and explaining to them what's going on if they're old enough to undertand.

Michael: Right.

Julia: But as soon as you start to, to see that and the reactions or you, your significant other, if you have one, is like, what's going on with you? You know, like they start to question. My husband did that, and I was like, I'm fine. I'm fine. I was not fine. I was not fine. [00:25:00] He knew I was not fine. I knew I was not fine, but at the time I didn't understand what it was, and because I was so high achieving, I thought, I'm doing my job, I'm showing up, I'm doing all the things, I'm fine. Except I can't function outside of work 'cause I'm so tired. My mind was so tired that it impacted my body.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, it, it's interesting, you, two traits that you mentioned were one is you are tired. Like, you are unusually tired and lethargic, and the other was that you were quick tempered, you were very short, and they're almost conflicting emotions, right? One is slow and quiet, and the other is very fast and jumpy and loud, right?

And, so, the, you could tell based off those two emotions, in particular, it's like, okay, there's [00:26:00] an obvious sign here that something is off, right? That there is burnout here. Like, usually it's, you know, when I talk to people they're like, oh, I'm so burned out from work. I'm just so tired all the time, right? But they're also doing other things, and oftentimes, they're in conflict with how they're feeling, right?

It's like, oh, I'm so tired. I can't do anything, but I can certainly yell at my partner, right? It's like, it's interesting that burnout shows up in weird ways, right? And, but it's un-, they're unusual ways, and if you could slow down for a moment just to spot those, maybe you have a chance at like taking that next step to overcoming that burnout.

Maybe you need somebody from on the outside being like, hey, like your partner being like, hey, something's off. What's going on here? Either way, it's a really interesting dynamic to me of like, wow, you've got, you can be really quiet and really loud at the same time. You could be really lethargic and really energetic at the same [00:27:00] time.

It's, there's that, and that, I assume then probably contributes to the, to further burnout because now you're trying to battle these two extreme emotions that you can't, that you don't normally have to process. And that probably takes out energy as well, whether it's mental or physiological or whatever it may be.

It's really interesting.

Julia: Yeah, part of it that you pointed out really clearly is the extremes.

Michael: Right.

Julia: We shouldn't really live in extremes, right? We should really be centered, you know, Zen, for lack of a better phrase. You know,

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: being able to manage emotions on a day to day. Being able to manage situations that come up either way.

Being tired is normal,

Michael: Right.

Julia: especially if you're a parent, you know, maybe you have a long commute. There are a lot of things that can contribute to that, but

Michael: Sure.

Julia: to be almost catatonic is not normal.

Michael: Right.

Julia: And so, that was [00:28:00] like the line that I was skirting at that point. And so, I think that's one good way for people to realize like, oh, if I'm having really extreme emotions, then I probably need to take a step back because something is going on.

It could be burnout, could be something else, but definitely wanna take a look at that.

Michael: Absolutely. And I think what's important, too, is that once you, whether or not you recognize that you're burned out, it's, we've gotta find time to take care of ourselves, too, right? Like, we know we have these roles that we're, we're not going to give up. We're not going to give up being a parent. We're not gonna give up working.

We need to earn a living and we need to do something to take care of our needs and our family's needs, but we also have to figure out a way to find time, even if it's in small increments to make sure we take care of ourselves. And, you know, that differs for everybody. For some people it's, they need to go [00:29:00] and do something social.

For other people, it's, they need to do something quiet for themselves. You know, maybe it's, you gotta take a walk. Maybe you work out. Maybe you have to read a book. Like, you have to do something to kind of take some of that strain that you're feeling from your other requirements, being a parent and being a, an employee or an entrepreneur or whatever you may be, right?

You still have to find time for yourself to take care of yourself. Otherwise, that burnout is going to come faster and quicker than you could ever expect. Or maybe you're already burned out, but you can find that when you do find those pockets to take care of yourself, that maybe that burnout becomes just a little bit more manageable, right?

And maybe you could see it a little bit more clearly and come up with a solution to, to what that burnout is, and it's not like, I know a lot of dads I talk to, like, I have no time. Like, I'm working all day and then I come home at night, I gotta take my kids to practice or I, you know, I gotta go watch their game.

Then we come home, and we gotta [00:30:00] eat and shower and get to bed, and it's like the day's gone. It's like, yes, I get that. We've all been there, there myself, but we do have small pockets of time at the very least. You can find a couple minutes, whether that's in your car, driving to work. Maybe you listen to a podcast or your favorite music or an audio book or something.

Maybe it's, you know, you find, you know, five minutes while you're waiting for the water in the shower to warm up where you can do something. Whether that's, you know, you do some pushups or you read or whatever it is that that helps you take care of yourself. Like you can find two minutes here, five minutes there, and those, I think those add up, right?

It's like, so when you do get to that stage, if you do get to that stage of burnout, you have something to fall back on at least, right?

Julia: Yeah. Yeah. I love, I love that advice, and I think so many people make the excuses. I've gotta do this.

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: I've gotta be here. I've got, you know, and I'm like, okay, I get that, but, you know, [00:31:00] my husband takes my son to jiu-jitsu, and they do the same thing every week. It's really not that exciting, you know? So, now he sits in the car and waits, and he reads in the car.

Michael: Yep.

Julia: So, he gets at least 45 minutes where he gets to read. You know, we worked it out so he can go to the gym and work out, you know? Like, there are things that we do as a couple that we communicate, hey, I really need this.

Michael: Right.

Julia: You really need this. So, let's make that time and that space for each other in a way that works for everybody. You know, and like I said earlier, we communicate that to our kid. Now, we only have one kid, and he's older, well he's eight, so he gets it. We can explain

Michael: Right.

Julia: to him, hey, mommy needs this time. Daddy needs this time, and he understands that, and we hope that we're teaching him some of that balance as well, but if you're not communicating [00:32:00] what you need and trying to make it work, then yeah, you're going to get stuck in these kind of spaces of burnout or just being tired all the time and not fulfilling anything for yourself.

Michael: Right. Absolutely. I love how you involve your child in it. It doesn't matter they're eight years old, but you're at least explaining, you're setting up the expectation, right, of like, this is what mommy needs, this is what daddy needs, like you're, you're setting up so they're not just like, well, why aren't they here?

Or why can't you do this with me right now? It's like they are starting to understand like, everybody needs to take care of themselves. You're, you're creating that healthy habit in their minds now, so as they get older, they realize, oh yeah, you know what? I need time and space for myself, too. It's easy to overlook, right, of like, oh, I'm just gonna tell my spouse or my partner, like, I need some time, and we just don't say anything to the kids. Well, sometimes you just gotta tell the kids, too, so they can start to build their own knowledge base of, like, what is healthy, right? You gotta model the behaviors you want your kids to follow.

[00:33:00] It's like you gotta explain it to them too, right? They might see you just go in another room and do something and be like, well, why doesn't mom or dad wanna spend time with me? But really that's not what it's about, right? It's, right, hey, I need 20 minutes to go take care of something or just to do this.

When I come back, we can explore this game or whatever it is that, that we want to do. So, I really, I like how you point that out of like, yes, you have to, it's not just for yourself, not just tell your partner, but you have to tell, you have to involve the kids, especially if you want them to model those same behaviors as they continue to grow.

I wanna kind of change directions a little bit here. And talk about like for dads who feel torn between ambition and family, right? And you work with high performing individuals, it's like, alright, how do you help them redefine what success looks like in any particular season of life?[00:34:00]

Julia: Oh, this is so good. So, I always start with values. We talked about this earlier. I always want to know what is most important to you right now.

Michael: Sure.

Julia: And sometimes what happens, especially with high achieving people, is you have a values conflict between this version of you at work that is doing all of these amazing things, and then the family version of you that you want to be and how you want to show up, and you, you have a conflict so hard that you can't show up in either space well, right?

Michael: Right.

Julia: Or you overcompensate in certain areas and all of that. I think one of the things that I will do is talk it through with somebody. What is possible? What does showing up as a good parent mean to you? You know, because

Michael: Yep.

Julia: I think there's society's view of what that means, and then there's your family unit's view of what that [00:35:00] means, you know? And I know my husband and I, we do things very different because of the life that we live, and we had to have very intentional conversations about that, so that we didn't step into this like, oh, I'm not a good parent. I'm not a good, I'm not being a good parent right now 'cause we're not doing this and we're not doing this and we're not, you know? And we had to say, no, that this is not the life we live. This is the life that we live. This is what it means for us to be a good parent in this season with this child as it is. You know, this is what it means for me to be a good partner. And this is the support that I need, and this is the support that you need.

So, a lot of times it's fighting against societal norms, norms that we have from childhood that we grew up with, that we are fighting against. There, there are a lot of things that, that play into how we think we should be in the world. A lot of cultural things. And, so, it's really just sitting down and going, [00:36:00] what do you actually believe? What makes sense for who you are? What makes sense for your personality and how you want to show up, and then, what needs to change, if anything?

Michael: Right.

Julia: And then have that conversation.

Michael: That's interesting. As you're talking, to me, it sounds like you are peeling back the layers, right? You started talking about values upfront, right? And then you kept kind of peeling back, peeling back, and then you're like, realize, oh, there's, there's this layer of societal norms that maybe don't always fit the equation.

You gotta peel back that layer, layer, and then eventually you get to really what are the true values and beliefs that you wanna pursue, right? But you can't get there without asking yourself those questions of, you know, what is, what am I really doing this for?

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Right? What's most important to me? What do I value?

Right? Like, what kind of parent do I wanna be? You mentioned, like, what kind of partner do I wanna be, but also who do I wanna be for myself, right? Again, [00:37:00] it's like coming back to, yes, you wanna be the best parent you can be, you wanna be the best partner you can be. You wanna be the best worker you can be, but you can't be any of those things if you don't take care of yourself, too.

So, it's like, how do I want to show up today? It's easy to, for, it's easy to put ourselves in the back. It's easier to focus on what's in front of us which is usually our family, our work, things like that. So, it's really interesting, like you gotta, to me, it's like you're peeling back the layers here until you do get to what that core belief system is, right? That's what you're trying to focus on. Is, is that a fair assumption or am I misinterpreting?

Julia: Absolutely. No, you're, you're right there. It's the reality. What's the reality of your situation? What's the reality of who you are as a person? Again, the type of parent that you want to be.

Michael: Yep.

Julia: You know, my husband is so good with our son right now because he's fun, and he plays and they wrestle and they do all those things.

I'm like, do not wrestle me. Do not come try to jump [00:38:00] on me. Do not. That is not, we're not doing that.

Michael: Right.

Julia: But I'm gonna tell you, like, I'm the one that has the deep conversations

Michael: Yep.

Julia: with my kid. You know, like I'm the one that I know when he's a teenager i'm gonna have all those like conversations that nobody wants to have

Michael: Right.

Julia: because that's where I show up best,

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: and I know that.

And so I'm kind of like biding my time, you know, doing what I can, but it's just different.

Michael: Right.

Julia: You know, I'm a different person. My husband's a different person, my kid's a different person.

Michael: Right.

Julia: And so we have to figure out collectively how are we all going to interact and make this work. And, I think, it's understanding who you are at your core.

So, I understand myself, my husband understands himself, we understand each other, and then we are attempting to understand our child, right?

Michael: Right.

Julia: So once you have all of that, then you can start to make [00:39:00] different decisions. But it takes time,

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: you know? It takes time. It takes intention. It's not something that's just going to happen

overnight.

Michael: Right, and where you are today with an 8-year-old, when he is, like you said, in his teenage years, you're gonna have those conversations. That's a different season, right? Again, it's like, in this season, this is how you're choosing to show up. And then in the next season, those roles may evolve, right?

And it'll continue to be that way throughout life of just recognizing, okay, what can I bring to the table today?

Julia: Exactly.

Michael: What situation are we in now? How do I best support, you know, the things that matter to me, the people that matter to me most. And I, I want to, I wanna talk about dads who are kind of in between roles right now, because that's a,

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: It's a tough position to be in, but it's one that I think is very timely right now. Whether, you know, you were laid off or chose to step away or taking a pause, maybe [00:40:00] took time off to raise your kids in their first couple of years, whatever it may be. What should they be focusing on during this, I'll call it an in-between season, where they're, they went from perhaps working before to, they want, they know they wanna go back to work eventually, or start something on their own, but right now they're in between.

Julia: Yeah, so, some of this is like, it depends

Michael: Fair.

Julia: because if it was a choice, then you have to go back to why did I make this choice? So, if you made this choice to show up as a dad in a certain way, then that is going to be the priority, and you have to figure out what that means for you and for your family. If it wasn't your choice, so you were laid off and now you are in this in-between and you're like, okay, well I can show up as a better dad, so I'm gonna do that.

Michael: Right.

Julia: But I also need to find something else. I think remember that the job search does not [00:41:00] need to be 24/7. You can absolutely dedicate, you know, an hour to a day. You know, like it does not have to be an eight hour a day scenario for you.

Michael: Sure.

Julia: You know, show up how you want to as a parent, as a partner. Do that. For the dads that are more, I chose this, but I know I want to go back to work, honestly, if you can pick up contract work depending on the type of job that you had or the skillset that you had, I actually think that's good for everyone whether you're a mom or a dad because not only does it keep you just sharp in terms of skills and all of that, but it allows you to put your energy into something else that's not your kids.

Michael: Right.

Julia: We see this happen with stay-at-home moms a lot. If they don't have something else, then sometimes it's really hard for them to like assimilate back into the world,

Michael: [00:42:00] Right.

Julia: you know, and make that transition. So, I think if there is something that you can do, whether that's owning your own business. You know, just doing something part-time, taking on contract work or project work, I think that's always great to keep you connected and to keep your, your skills fresh.

Michael: I love that. Great, great thoughts on because it's, it is such a challenging position to be in, whether you chose to or not, right? It's, those are, these are transitions,

Julia: Mm-hmm.

Michael: right, and change is never easy or is typically not easy. And to kind of just like slow it down for a second and be like, okay, here is, you know, let's start with an hour a day.

Let's find something that you can do. Maybe it's, you start with contract work. You don't have to necessarily jump into full-time, nine to five plus however long. Like, like you can build your way back into it if need be. You know, depending on what your situation is. Of course, everybody, you know, if you don't have the resources, and you [00:43:00] need to earn money, well, maybe you have to take a job that is not aligned exactly with what you wanna do right now, but it starts getting you back into working and will bide you time to find what really does, does work for you.

Julia: Yeah, and many employers are much more understanding these days of parents, you know, moms or dads, taking time to care for kids,

Michael: Right.

Julia: you know, or changing their of their career because they wanted something different so that they could show up for their kids. I think that that's becoming more normalized.

Not everywhere, not

Michael: Yeah.

Julia: every manager,

Michael: For sure.

Julia: but in a lot of scenarios, I think people understand it better, and so, I wouldn't be afraid of it the way that we were probably afraid of it 20 years ago.

Michael: Sure. That makes sense. So, how should dads then think about boundaries at work in a way that still feels thoughtful and professional to their [00:44:00] employers, but is, isn't necessarily risky or confrontational?

Julia: Yeah, I think dads have such an opportunity to set the stage for other employees, especially if you're in a leadership position. I think being able to communicate, hey, I need this flexibility, or, you know, I need this schedule on this day, or I need to leave early, whatever that looks like. I think men are in a really much better position than women to communicate those things and then advocate for them in the workplace. And, so, I think that dads, again, especially those in leadership positions, really need to understand the privilege they have there to impact not only themselves and their schedule, but for the people that work for them, and specifically the women that work for them.

Michael: Great point. I like that. So, one more question before we jump into the speed round. For the dad listening, who feels overwhelmed and behind, what's one thing [00:45:00] he can do this week to start taking ownership of his career again?

Julia: Ooh, that's such a good question. First of all, first of all, I would say you're probably not behind.

Michael: Sure.

Julia: I think, sometimes, we feel that way, but that again, is a societal norm and influence or cultural influence that is not always true, but we make it true. So, I would, you know, step back and go, is this thing I think about myself actually true or am I just projecting something? So, I would start there. But then from that, I would really look at your values. I would look at what matters to you most right now and get as granular and specific as you can. And if you do have a partner, I would do that work with a partner. Do it separately, and then come together, so that you are on the same page and you all understand what each other values and then what are your collective values, so that [00:46:00] you can figure out what you need to adjust to make that work for you.

Michael: Great advice, especially like the going granular and specific, right, with your values, because it's so easy to be like, yes, these are my values and it's, it's usually surface level, especially at the start, right? But as you were talking about earlier, of like what I interpret it to be like layers, peeling back these layers, you can start to get more specific to get to that what is that core? What is the core of that value or that belief that you're going after? You know, it's easy just to be like, yeah, here are my values, and just move on to the next thing, but you're not going to, to get the result that you want if you don't actually put in the effort to figure out like going deeper than the surface layer. So great advice. I love that. Alright, time to totally change things up. Do the speed round if you're ready. It's absolutely nothing to do with anything. So, first question, what's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?

Julia: Bluey.

Michael: Bluey?[00:47:00]

Sure. Popular answer. What was your very first job?

Julia: So, I danced when I was younger, and I actually ended up working reception there when I was in high school. So.

Michael: Excellent. Very nice. I spent a lot of time at dance studios for my daughter, so I, I understand that job. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

Julia: Toddler-sized T-Rex.

Michael: Why is that?

Julia: I don't know. I just feel like they'd be easier to manage.

Michael: Fair. Fair. Okay. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you would sing if you, you had to?

Julia: Champagne Supernova by Oasis.

Michael: Oh, excellent. Classic song. There we go. And, finally, what's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

Julia: I don't know if it's that weird, but disposable toothbrushes.

Michael: Okay.

Julia: My son has braces right now, so he needs them. And then I just like having [00:48:00] them. You just never know when you get something stuck in your teeth,

Michael: Right.

Julia: And

Michael: Always good to practice good oral hygiene.

Julia: Yes.

Michael: That's awesome. Before we wrap up, I would love for listeners to know how they can learn more from you if they want to go deeper with your work or it's your coaching, you have a podcast or resource, any of the resources you're putting out in the world, where should they start and where, what you like, what would you like them to, to check out?

Julia: Yeah, so I would head over to my website, ridethetidecollective.com. You can get to my podcast. My podcast is Control Your Career, and that's really where I would suggest you start, because one, there's a lot of really great information on there. I do not gatekeep on my podcast, so I just give you all the information and all the strategies, but also allows you to just get to know me and how I work and how I coach.

So, that's probably where I would start first.

Michael: Awesome. Love that. We'll, we'll link out to everything in the show notes as well. Julia, this has been incredibly interesting, practical, grounding conversation. I [00:49:00] really, the, there, there's a lot of different elements to what we talked about today and like talking about our values and beliefs and societal norms and kind of breaking past some of that stuff.

And, I know there's a lot of dads out there that are listening that are gonna hear themselves a lot in what you've shared. And, you know, especially when it comes to burnout and trying to balance like the, the disconnect between what's going on at work, maybe what's coming down from leadership to what they believe is the, the right path forward.

And I think in listening to this conversation, I think a lot of dads are gonna be able to walk away with something that will give them a clearer sense of how they can own their, take more ownership over their careers and their lives. So, thank you for being here and for the work you're doing. It's really, really interesting conversation.

I appreciate it.

Julia: Thank you for having me. I, I, I loved being able to dig deeper into this. This was so great. Thank you for the opportunity.

Michael: Oh, my pleasure. And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself [00:50:00] in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com. Subscribe to the Gap Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday, and it's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now.

And if this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.