Kristian Leavell on Finding Calm and Becoming the Dad You Want to Be

Kristian Leavell on Finding Calm and Becoming the Dad You Want to Be
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[00:00:00] Kristian: It's finding out who you really are and looking in the mirror with the, with that version of yourself that may not be pretty to look at. And then identifying, okay, how do I get to this point where I'm comfortable looking in the mirror? I'm comfortable looking at who I am and acknowledging that while I have flaws, I'm improving, I'm showing up for my children, I'm showing up for my parent, my partner, I'm showing up for myself.

[00:00:32] Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads re-imagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between, and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm talking with Kristian Leavell, a licensed clinical social worker and therapist based in Dallas, Texas.

[00:00:48] Michael: He helps people navigate anxiety relationships and life's curve balls, and he's also a dad himself, soon to be a dad of two. Kristian knows firsthand what it's like to juggle work, family, and the pressure to show up well for both. In this conversation, we're gonna talk about what it means to find work that feels meaningful, stay mentally healthy in the chaos of parenting, and manage the quiet moments when stress or self-doubt creep in.

[00:01:09] Kristian, welcome to the show. I'm so excited to have you here today.

[00:01:12] Kristian: Hey Michael. It's an honor man. I'm very excited myself. I could, we were saying a little earlier, this is my first time ever doing a podcast, so I'm a little nervous, but mostly excited to chat about this stuff.

[00:01:24] Michael: I understand where you're coming from. I would be nervous if this is my first time also, but this is a show to help dads. And when I fall back on that, I think about okay, how can we help dads? There's nothing to be nervous about there. It's

[00:01:37] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:01:38] Michael: Right. We're hopefully bringing to light important conversations.

[00:01:43] And I think particularly today and with your background talking about mental health, it doesn't get the presence that I think it deserves, particularly for dads. I think for everybody in general, but, and for dads in particular, it's tough to manage life. It's tough when you have people you are responsible for you have to take care of. You have to still live your life. You have to earn a living. You have to, you take care of yourself. You have to make sure that you are doing things for yourself so that you can take care of those that, that you care about. I'm really excited to dive deep into that today, and I think we're gonna have a great discussion.

[00:02:19] Kristian: Agree, man. I

[00:02:19] Michael: Yeah.

[00:02:20] Kristian: agree. Ready.

[00:02:21] Michael: So, I'd like to start out with a little bit of background on you. You work with people every day who are trying to manage life's pressures. You're also living it yourself as a dad. How has becoming a father changed the way you think about work purpose or even mental health?

[00:02:39] Kristian: I feel like in becoming a father, to me, has honestly been my proudest achievement.

[00:02:46] Michael: Yep.

[00:02:47] Kristian: Like I love my daughter in ways that I couldn't even describe. And I think prior to my daughter coming into my life, I was super, super focused on success and money and trying to make sure that I was achieving in my career and just really locking in on that aspect.

[00:03:07] And I still feel like that drive is still here for me, but now that my daughter's here, I'm a lot more aware and more intentional about how I am when I'm in my daughter's presence. I understand that her growing up, I'm her first reference for how a man treats a woman, right? She sees how I treat her mom. She sees how I treat her. And, truth be told, she sees how I talk about myself, which is something that I struggled with, when I was younger, being self-deprecating and not necessarily being really intentioned on speaking about myself in a higher light. And that word intention is the one that I focus back on now more than anything because in my practice I speak a lot about intention and how intention can be the difference between protecting your peace and being avoided in nature. So, now that I am a father, I'm a lot more intentional about my time, even more so now than I had I'd ever been in my life.

[00:04:13] Michael: Yeah. I love that. I love how your intention to be and show confidence, right? Like, you said, you were very self-deprecating before your daughter was born, but in front of her, you're showing her, you're demonstrating confidence because to me, at least, I think one of my purposes being a father is giving my children the confidence to achieve more, to take that next step. Sometimes it's a small step, sometimes it's a larger step, but to have that self-confidence. Like, my oldest is about to go into college next year, and he's gonna be living on his own for the first time, and, you know, he was not always the most confident child, but you can see him building that confidence and as you said, like, demonstrating that confidence for your daughter, I'm realizing the times that I tried to project confidence, not in a cocky, I'm better than anybody else type of way; it's in a yes, I am willing to try new things. I'm willing to take that next step to improve the situation that we are currently in. And it could be, you could be in a good situation now, but you wanna make that even better and to show there's, there is more to life that you can experience and that you can be part of and confidence, to me, I've been thinking about a lot about confidence lately and my children having confidence to do the things that they wanna do to try new things so that they can get a fuller experience and figure out what is, what works for them. So, I love how you interweave that. You're living with intention, but you're part of that intention is to, or the intention of that intention is to help your child develop the right mindset, the right skills to, so that they can be successful and they could, can be happy.

[00:06:15] Kristian: A hundred percent. A hundred percent. And now I'm thinking about just last night, I went out to take the trash and I had my daughter with me. And I'm carrying her and I have the trash in one hand. And she's saying, ah, like she's scared of the dark at this point in time. And I'm telling her, I said look at Daddy.

[00:06:33] Daddy's not afraid of the Dark. Daddy's here with you. You're here with me. You protect me, I protect you, and we'll be fine. And this morning when I was taking her to, to her preschool, she said, that Dada protect me? And I said, of course, sweetheart, I'll always protect you. So just like, they listen to everything that we say, and they absorb so, so much. So again, that, that intention, that, that focus on being confident and instilling that in our children, it shows in so many more ways than we could even imagine.

[00:07:05] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. So you do, you work full-time, you're also present in your daughter's life, right? You're taking out the trash with your daughter, and the next morning you're dropping off for preschool, you're going to work, you're coming back, and you wanna spend time with your daughter, and you have another child on the way, and I think a lot of dads feel torn between being fully present at home and fully committed at work.

[00:07:33] What do you see as the biggest mental or emotional challenge in trying to balance both?

[00:07:39] Kristian: Ooh, balancing work and I don't know. I think, for me, it's probably this guilt.

[00:07:49] I think there's a lot of guilt and wanting to be present for your child and also be this provider.

[00:07:59] Michael: Yep.

[00:08:01] Kristian: And when you're working, I feel like, okay, you, you're focusing on your money. You're focusing on providing this infrastructure for your child, but then in the back of your mind, it's like I could be spending more time with them.

[00:08:14] Michael: Right.

[00:08:14] Kristian: And then when you're spending more time with your child, it's like I could also be working.

[00:08:17] Michael: Right.

[00:08:18] Kristian: So, you're effectively working these two jobs and there isn't really much time for rest. And that, I feel is probably the biggest part, just so much of that internal guilt in trying to find and navigate the right way to do this thing called parenting.

[00:08:35] Michael: Right.

[00:08:37] Kristian: For me, I think it's been really important to just redefine what being a provider means and what that means. And I've always assumed being a provider meant financially,

[00:08:50] Michael: Yep.

[00:08:51] Kristian: but now that I've, I've had my daughter, I have another one on the way, i'm thinking more so in terms of being a provider.

[00:08:57] It could mean stability. It could mean providing love, it could mean protect, providing connection.

[00:09:03] Michael: Yep.

[00:09:04] Kristian: So, I feel like that's how I've been trying to manage it. And truth be told I'm not perfect. I continue to deal with some of that internal guilt myself, but I think again I always ground myself back to intention

[00:09:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:09:20] Kristian: and just trying my best to take out everything that I am dealing with. At the end of the day say, okay, but I need to be a dad and I need to make sure that I'm present as best I can be given the circumstances.

[00:09:34] Michael: Right. And do you feel that, you said there's like an internal battle. You're torn between you could always be doing more of one or the other. You could always be doing more with your daughter. You could always be doing more at work. There's always kinda this like pursuit of almost perfection, right?

[00:09:53] But you never really, does perfect really exist, and it is in your mind, is it better to pursue perfection or is it better to, is it the pursuit of perfection? That's what that's most important is how do you keep improving? How do you do the best that you can for your family, for yourself, for your work?

[00:10:15] Or is it like getting to that end goal? Is it the process or is it the end that is important to you?

[00:10:23] Kristian: I think in from my perspective. The concept of perfectionism is just such a intangible thing for us to grasp a lot of times. And what makes perfectionism hard, in my personal opinion, is that it has its own reinforcing behavioral principles. People who are very successful in life tend to have a level of perfectionism to them because they strive and they strive to meet this goal that is more times than not even defined,

[00:10:57] Michael: Yep.

[00:10:57] Kristian: but I feel like within the context of being a dad I look at it more so as perfectionism being more of a limiting factor because we will fail.

[00:11:10] Michael: Yep.

[00:11:10] Kristian: That's an inevitability of humans.

[00:11:12] We will fail.

[00:11:13] Michael: Right.

[00:11:14] Kristian: And, sometimes, I find that at acknowledging and accepting that we will fail in certain aspects, dampens the amount of anxiety that comes with trying to show up for being a parent. We have the idea that we need to be the perfect parent, the perfect worker, the perfect husband, the perfect whatever, then we don't give ourself much leeway for when we do make mistakes.

[00:11:38] And when we do make that mistake, it tends to be a lot more catastrophic then we could have imagined if we had admitted, admittedly planned for that inevitable failure to happen.

[00:11:48] Michael: Right. So are you saying that it's okay not to be perfect?

[00:11:56] Kristian: A thousand percent. It's, I think being perfect is not possible.

[00:12:03] Michael: Yep.

[00:12:06] Kristian: I like to, in my practice, I like to talk about the concept of perfection and the opportunity cost of being perfect. And more times than not, I find out a lot of my clients who are in the pursuit of perfection have extremely crippling anxiety that is right behind that lens. They're able to channel their energy into this non-defined idea of perfectionism and right under that layer, I find that they're just this crippling anxiety. There's so much about wanting to fit this goal that there's no room for what happens if I don't fit that goal, and the let down that comes with that.

[00:13:00] Michael: Right.

[00:13:01] Kristian: So, yeah, I think perfectionism is it has behavioral advantages, but like with anything, intention is what I will come back to. And when you are focusing so much on that, you leave less room to be present for your children, for yourself, for your partner, and also just to be able to relax a little bit.

[00:13:24] I talk a lot about your shoulders dropping

[00:13:27] Michael: Yeah.

[00:13:27] Kristian: and when you're in pursuit of that, your shoulders are hunched 'cause you're so stressed, but drop it a little bit and see the shift happen for yourself since you're nervously.

[00:13:40] Michael: Yeah, it, that's a great point of there's physical reactions to your mental being, right? And you get anxious, you get tense, your shoulders pop up. That's such a great kind of way to think about okay, in the moment, what can I do? Well, first maybe just release the tension from my shoulders and that will naturally relax my mental state a bit, and I can just continue to build off of that.

[00:14:08] Which kind of leads me to my next question, which you answered already, but I'm curious how you would reset when you realize you're giving more to your work than to yourself or your family. Like you talk about the anxiety behind that, but if you feel like you're just too dedicated into your work and you're not giving the time to your family or your family points it out to you, what's, how do you recommend resetting yourself so that you can find that right balance?

[00:14:35] Kristian: I think that's something that I actively struggle with myself sometimes, and I'll be very transparent and honest with you about that. So much of what I've always thought to be a man, and as a provider, I've wrapped up in being able to provide this life for my daughter, for my wife that I never had. And in, in therapy, and acceptance is commitment therapy, we call that programming. And your program is everything that's been ingrained in you your entire life, from your parents, from your, your environment growing up. And it's this kind of internal working that makes you see the world the way you see the world. And like I've had to, I've had to acknowledge that programming as something that is, has led me to be successful in some ways and less than others. I have to acknowledge and when I want to reset, I think the first thing is to acknowledge it out loud. There's so much power in being able to say what's swimming in your mind

[00:15:43] Michael: Yep.

[00:15:43] Kristian: out loud and hearing it as well.

[00:15:45] Michael: Right.

[00:15:47] Kristian: Once I've said it out loud, I think it's really important to then become more intentional with your time. You've recognized it, now what do you do with it?

[00:15:54] Michael: Right.

[00:15:55] Kristian: So, that could be putting down screens, that could be getting outside, just really engaging with the things that make you feel good.

[00:16:02] And again, make your shoulders drop.

[00:16:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:16:06] Kristian: For myself, that's the gym, getting out, going for a run or a walk. But it can be anything with intention, right? It can be playing a video game. It could be just standing outside and letting the wind hit you. It could be anything. The intention continues to be the way to come back from that reset whenever I'm feeling like I'm so disconnected or so obsessed with working and dealing with my own programming.

[00:16:34] Michael: So smart. For me, it's walking like when I need to,

[00:16:38] Kristian: I love a good walk,

[00:16:39] Michael: right? It, if I need to clear my mind or if I realize oh yeah, I'm doing too much of one thing and neglecting something else like that mental reset it provides me to just, something about the movement clears my mind. I don't realize it until it's, I'm into it and it's like halfway through my walk.

[00:16:57] I'm gonna, I feel this physical reset. Right? And I've got this new energy to go forward. So that's such a great point. So smart to find what it is your reset. Like, for you, it's a gym. For me, it's a walk. For somebody else, it could be all kinds of things. Right?

[00:17:15] Kristian: It could be reading a book. It could be playing a video game, it could be cooking. Cooking's a big one that people don't even consciously realize that is a way to calm them down, getting into something that is intentional. Measuring the ingredients. Watching the transformation happen from it being a raw product to a finished product.

[00:17:34] These are just so many little things that we can become more intentional about and s ee the results of it for our central nervous system.

[00:17:43] Michael: Absolutely. Have you found that your work as a therapist has made you more aware of your boundaries or priorities as a father?

[00:17:50] Kristian: You have no idea. In therapy and in real life, or even like little videos I do, i'm always talking about boundaries and emotional regulation. It's just funny when I go through my day-to-day interactions and then I'm talking to my wife or I'm talking to my daughter or whomever, and I say, ooh, I feel like I'm being a hypocrite right now.

[00:18:13] I'm not enforcing my boundaries. I'm not enforcing my priorities. And I think a lot of people assume that therapists, that we are this like these paladins of mental health and that we are just this, these perfect figures mental health-wise, but we forget all the time. It's that inherent thing about being human. We forget. We make mistakes. We are hypocritical people.

[00:18:38] Michael: Yep.

[00:18:40] Kristian: I think again, it, I'm going back to intention. It's a skill to be intentional. It's a skill to develop boundaries. It's a skill to learn how to communicate with your partner or with your children. Parenting is a skill.

[00:18:52] Michael: Yeah.

[00:18:53] Kristian: You're probably a much more competent parent now than you were 60 seconds after your baby came out of the womb.

[00:19:01] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:19:02] Kristian: You develop. You become intentional with it.

[00:19:03] Michael: Right.

[00:19:04] Kristian: And you let those building blocks continue to grow until you are a lot more comfortable and competent in that skill. And

[00:19:12] Michael: Yep.

[00:19:12] Kristian: It's the same with boundaries and emotional regulation.

[00:19:15] You just practice it.

[00:19:16] Michael: Right. I, correct me if I'm wrong here, but there seems to be a through line of what you experience and what you suggest, and that's honesty with yourself, right? Like you set the expectations for yourself, but you have to be honest with what is realistic, what you can accomplish and when you wanna achieve more, like what is reasonable to do and are you being honest with yourself or fair to yourself when you are dedicating so much time to work or so much time to your child instead of work?

[00:19:51] Like figuring out what that, that balance is and being honest to yourself, to me seems like that common thread amongst the different feelings that people have and trying to figure out how to manage being an active, present father and everything else that you're responsible for day to day as a, as an adult.

[00:20:15] Kristian: A hundred percent. Honesty is the background of growth in my opinion. You have to be honest about what you are feeling. And you have to be honest about knowing what you're honest about.

[00:20:28] Michael: Yep.

[00:20:31] Kristian: I think, in therapy, one of the most important things that I provide to my clients is the fact that I will be honest. And that doesn't mean I have to be rude about it. That doesn't mean I have to be callous or brutal, but if you aren't acting in alignment with your values, I will say that to you. And if I'm not being as good of a therapist as I need to be to you, I expect you to tell me that as well.

[00:20:56] Michael: Yeah.

[00:20:57] Kristian: And honesty continues to be this thread like you mentioned a way that everything continues to connect.

[00:21:03] We have to be honest with each other and honest about what we are facing.

[00:21:07] Michael: Right,

[00:21:08] Kristian: Just with our mental health, with our shortcomings, with our vulnerabilities. Honesty is the key to, again, self acknowledgment and making progress. have to be honest with yourself.

[00:21:19] Michael: Right. Like you said, when you reset, you wanna say it out loud, but you have to be honest about what you say out loud, right? Because, otherwise, you're not really fixing or changing anything, right? If it's not real. Yeah. I love that common thread because it is easy to be honest if you want to be.

[00:21:37] Right, but it's a choice, right? It's a choice. But you have to make it. And there, yes, there is effort in what you do and how to be honest with yourself and with others. How do you, you touched on this earlier about societal expectations and in society, oftentimes the parent, particularly the dad, can be, there's this idea of being the provider or the protector.

[00:22:03] Not always the case, but in many cases that's how people are raised. And maybe that's changing a bit nowadays. But there's still, I think there's people that have these expectations that the father is a provider, the protector, all these different things. How does that shape the way dads handling stress and vulnerability?

[00:22:26] Kristian: I think these expectations, I feel, weigh on dads in ways that not many people even realize. For myself, from a young age, I felt like strength meant hiding struggle. It meant being the best at this or being whatever on the playground. I think that was my programming for what strength was.

[00:22:51] And even I think back to myself growing up. Growing up in New Orleans, and I don't blame my parents at all for what they were telling me at the time because that was culture. That was what they knew. It was man up. It was boys don't cry. That was a core part of my programming and even now I'm thinking back, like I, I grew up watching my father lose a lot of his siblings. And he didn't shed a tear. And I remember explicitly watching him to see his reaction as they were lowering my aunt or my uncle into the ground. And it never came. And, quite honestly, it made me proud when I was younger because I thought that was what strength was, what it was. I just, I was like, man, I want to be like that. I want to be stoic. I wanna be emotionless. I thought that was the pinnacle of what strength and what manhood and what the, what it was. And I, I honestly now, I know that's not the case, but that was my dad. That's my dad. He's strong. Ooh, even now I'm thinking about, I'm still feeling that, that internal reaction as I'm recalling the memory, but I know now it's not healthy,

[00:24:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:24:12] Kristian: you know, to hold onto your emotions like that.

[00:24:14] Michael: Yep.

[00:24:15] Kristian: I know that pushing it down leads to burnout, irritability, anxiety, like I, I know that. So, the, the societal expectations continue to be there, and I think you're right. We're seeing, we are seeing a shift now toward kind of acknowledging that we need to broaden what it means to be a protector or be a provider, and so that we can handle our stress and vulnerability differently.

[00:24:42] Michael: Yeah, I feel very seen. Very called out, right? Putting stoicism at the front and center of being a father, and that's not, in the long run, that I'm not sure that benefits my children, right?

[00:25:04] Kristian: Right.

[00:25:04] Michael: They've got to be able to handle different situations and be able to be vulnerable in order to grow, I think.

[00:25:11] And, yeah, I'm realizing in real time here, yeah, that's a very important point. And something I can work on, something I can acknowledge, be honest with myself about. So yeah, I feel seen.

[00:25:27] Kristian: Me too, man. Like I, I still have some of those, again, that programming, right? I think, whenever I'm talking to my wife about how I wanna be a father for my daughter, I have to actively fight back some of the feelings that I've, of the idea of what that fatherhood, with that being a man, that archetype looks like, and I don't always get it right.

[00:25:53] Like I, I'll be transparent. I continue to mess up. I continue to make mistakes, but I try. And I try with earnesty, and I do my best to be intentional about how I'm being seen. Just like we talked about at the very beginning. Just that intention and how I'm showing up and how my daughter is seeing me. While I'm improving, I will continue to make mistakes, but I trust and believe that as long as I continue to show up and continue to try that the end result will be what I want it to be.

[00:26:29] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:26:30] Kristian: It's hard, man.

[00:26:31] Michael: Yes.

[00:26:31] Kristian: Being a dad is hard.

[00:26:33] Michael: That is hard, but it's the best job I've ever had.

[00:26:37] Kristian: Many times over.

[00:26:38] Michael: Yep. So, you said earlier when we were talking about perfectionism that you tend to see a, a lot of anxiety directly behind that perfectionism. But on the other end of that spectrum, those that are struggling, those that feel like maybe they're not doing enough or earning enough or being enough for their family, I assume they're also carrying some sort of maybe quiet anxiety.

[00:27:04] Is that correct, and if so, like what advice do you give for managing that internal pressure of I need to do more, I need to, maybe you're a stay at home dad and you're trying to like figure out, okay, how else can I support my family? Or what can I do? Or maybe you just have a job that you're not happy in and you're, you think you could be doing more or earning more.

[00:27:24] What advice do you give for managing that anxiety that comes from this pressure of not feeling like you're doing enough or being enough or earning enough?

[00:27:35] Kristian: This is one of my favorite topics to talk about in session with a lot of the dads because the first action step is identify the story you're telling yourself, whether it's, I'm not enough or I'm not doing enough, or I need to be doing more, the story tends to run on autopilot and that will be the driving cause of a lot of the guilt and the stress that we deal with on a day-to-day, week-to-week basis. And I've mentioned that term programming a lot so far because that's a lot of what it is. What a lot of that internal dialogue is your programming.

[00:28:12] And sometimes if you sit with it long enough, you will hear whose voice you hear it in, and it could be your voice. It could be a parent's voice. It could be a teacher's voice. But more times than not, there is a voice to that story and that what is driving that anxiety and what you tell yourself.

[00:28:31] Michael: Yep.

[00:28:32] Kristian: So I like to say that you need to identify the story that you're telling yourself. Then, I like to tell my clients to ground yourself in reality and ask yourself what really matters to you? Is it your family? Is it being emotionally present? Does it mean being consistent? Does it mean being connected? Because those things matter way more than fitting a standard, than fitting the idea of perfectionism, as we've talked about before. Grounding ourselves and our values allows us to have a compass in which we can operate that feels true to who we are, and we have to give them permission to fail. Permission to say, okay, you will make a mistake. You won't be perfect dad all the time. You may lose your temper here.

[00:29:26] You may ignore your child. Not on purpose, but because of circumstance here. That's okay because you are human and you have a lot that you are juggling as a man in society. You are dealing with a lot. As a father, you're dealing with a lot. So reminding yourself that, hey, I will mess up, but I can improve.

[00:29:49] I can be intentional. I can identify the story I'm telling myself and ask myself is this true? And remind myself what my values are. And that could be, like I said, being consistent with your children, being present, being actionable, but being and identifying those values helps with a lot of the pressure that comes internally.

[00:30:12] Michael: Yep. So it sounds to me like to manage that anxiety, you're breaking down the, like you said, the story behind it

[00:30:22] Kristian: Behind it.

[00:30:22] Michael: To get to the actual root cause of what's driving that anxiety. And you talk about finding your purpose, what's right for you. But to me it's also I think you're saying that you have to take care of yourself

[00:30:42] Kristian: You do.

[00:30:42] Michael: Just as much, right?

[00:30:43] Like in order to manage, in order to be an active, present father, in order to be successful in whatever your work may be in whatever shape or form it takes, you can't forget that you still exist and you have to take care of yourself. There is this element of

[00:31:01] Kristian: I love that line.

[00:31:02] Michael: Self care, I suppose that,

[00:31:04] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:31:04] Michael: right? Like you need to make sure that in order to be present, you have to be available and you can't make yourself available if you're not taking care of yourself, right?

[00:31:15] Because otherwise you're gonna end up not where you want to be, and then you can't take care of the things that you wanna take care of. Are there particular habits or routines that you've seen that can help dads maintain that balance day to day?

[00:31:29] Kristian: Yeah, I, well, before I get into that, I want to say that you can't forget you exist was such a nice line, man. I might have to use, I might have to borrow that from you because that was perfect.

[00:31:38] Michael: Thank you.

[00:31:39] Kristian: You cannot forget that you exist. I love that. To answer your question, yes, I remind my clients a lot that five to ten minutes counts. Something as simple as stepping outside, taking a few breaths, texting a friend that you haven't chatted with in a while, and talking about what's going on throughout the day. Creating a, that type of routine allows you to build this momentum up. Time and time again, we get really wrapped up in the idea of a vacation will fix everything.

[00:32:16] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:17] Kristian: When we can honestly take the small steps today, just 10 minutes a day, get out for a walk.

[00:32:24] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:25] Kristian: Just some time to actually breathe and connect with what's happening with your body right now.

[00:32:29] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:30] Kristian: Reminding yourself that you exist. Like you said, these are small acts that lead and build over time as long as we build them into our day. Another thing I like to help when my clients are trying to figure this out is identifying where you can add that five to ten minutes a day. Do you have more time in the morning? Do you have more time in the evening? Is it when you're in the shower? Is it right after you got out of the shower? Is it after you cooked dinner? Identifying the gaps in your day where you can put those five to 10 minutes for yourself is incredibly important. It makes it easier to stick with it.

[00:33:05] Michael: That's so smart to, to build that routine, to identify like, where can you do this consistently? Because, yes, you can be jam packed with stuff all day, but there's, there are always gaps. You can find five minutes, like even just getting the water warm for your shower. Like maybe that's the couple of minutes you take to do some mindfulness or do something to kinda reset yourself, recharge yourself.

[00:33:28] So, that's such a great idea of identify where those gaps are in your routine to then build this new wave of self-care for yourself so that you don't forget about yourself.

[00:33:39] Kristian: That you don't, that you exist.

[00:33:41] Michael: Yeah, that you do exist. Yes. So, you often talk about, and I think I read this on your website, that you create a space where people feel heard and supported, right? For dads who don't have that kind of outlet, where can they start building one?

[00:33:59] Kristian: This one's tough. I, and I'll be transparent. It's a tough one. It's something that is, is a quiet problem that a lot of dads deal with. And I like to make it known that so much of, once you become a father and you become a dad, you're typically out of the type of environments that would lend itself for you to find friends more often, right? You're not in school anymore, so you don't have the consistent interaction with people on a day-to-day basis. And more times than not, you're often isolated to either your work route or if you're a stay at home dad, you know that, that environment as well. So, I like to say start small, and it could be as simple as one trusted friend or your partner or if you have the means and the ability, then a therapist. The key is just to find one person who will listen without judgment. And another option if doable, if you have the means or the physical capability is to join a team, something lightweight, light work like kickball, right?

[00:35:13] Michael: Yep.

[00:35:13] Kristian: Or people are super big into what is it called?

[00:35:18] Michael: Pickleball.

[00:35:19] Kristian: Pickleball. Yes, thank you, pickleball. Like that type of environment that gets you moving, right?

[00:35:26] Michael: Yep.

[00:35:27] Kristian: It's, your intentional. You're moving, and you're communicating with people who may be on your team or who may be in the Rec. Like you build in these little pockets that we keep talking about, and you allow yourself to put yourself in a position to meet people, to have an outlet so that you can stop building that connection, that tribe. And another thing if it comes down to, you can always try to find online forums for things that are, that you're interested in. Sports being a really big one for a lot of people. Or if you're very handsy, like mechanic or woodworking groups and things that you find yourself, that you actually enjoy, there will be a forum for that dedication purpose.

[00:36:10] So you just be intentional about how you can find those little pockets for yourself, and then once you identify it, give yourself the courage to actually insert yourself in that space and acknowledge that you will have anxiety prior to joining that, but know that again, it'll be worth it on the other side.

[00:36:30] Michael: Right, right. Love that. Such a great idea to incorporate hobbies where you can, too, 'cause you're, you're accomplishing multiple things at the same point. You're pursuing your interests and you're getting this outlet and potentially meeting like-minded people. There's just so many benefits to doing that. And like you said, start small.

[00:36:49] You don't have to meet 50 people. Find the first person, right? Let it actually go from there. Maybe they introduce you to somebody else that becomes your best friend.

[00:36:58] Kristian: Hundred percent.

[00:36:59] Michael: Right.

[00:36:59] Kristian: It's a snowball.

[00:37:00] Michael: It just keeps growing. That's awesome.

[00:37:02] Kristian: There's a metaphor in ACT, acceptance and commitment therapy, that I love to use that just illustrates this point. And it's called the swamp metaphor. So I want you to envision you're in a swamp and you're on a bank, and so it's just you on this bank and on the other side of this bank is the person you want to be. The idealized version of yourself. The person that's intentional with their time, who's present with their children, who's present with their partner, who is everything that they want to be, and in the middle of that is the swamp. And the swamp is your programming. It's your anxiety. It's your depression. It's your fear. It's your insecurities.

[00:37:47] It's everything that prevents you from getting to that person. The question is, are you willing to wade through the swamp to become the person you want to be? And that's the metaphor that I like to use with my clients because it is the truth. Are you willing to deal with that anxiety to be the person you want to be?

[00:38:09] Are you willing to deal with the uncomfortableness of starting a sports program for the first time, or going to a rec league and being awkward, but to get to where you want to be, which is having that that, that, community, having that outlet, having that thing. That's the way to visualize it because that's effectively what's happening in your mind.

[00:38:32] You're having to cross the swamp for everything that you want to accomplish in life, and that's the battle.

[00:38:40] Michael: I love that. That's such a clear picture, that metaphor of crossing the swamp to achieve, to get to the place that you want to be 'cause you're right, at least for me personally, like trying new things brings on anxiety, right?

[00:38:58] Kristian: Sure.

[00:38:58] Michael: But you weigh that anxiety with what you could get on the other side, and it's okay, and getting through that anxiety, that makes me stronger for the next time that I face the anxiety,

[00:39:09] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:39:10] Michael: Right, so there's

[00:39:10] Kristian: You give yourself a reference.

[00:39:11] Michael: Right, right. And then I realized, okay, maybe it's not as scary as I thought it was going to be to become this new person, this better person, to improve myself a little bit. Maybe it doesn't hurt. Right? Just go and do it and rip the bandaid off and see what happens. Like the worst that's gonna happen is you remain the same, but you've gained a new experience.

[00:39:30] Kristian: So you gain a new experience

[00:39:32] Michael: I wanna turn the direction of this because I have a question for you that I'm really interested to ask you which is, goes back to parenting and how can dad's model emotional honesty for their kids? Like we talked about you have to be honest with yourself. You have to be intentional.

[00:39:54] Set your expectations. How can dads model that for their kids without feeling like they're oversharing or losing authority?

[00:40:03] Kristian: The key with modeling emotional honesty for your children is balance.

[00:40:10] Emotional honesty, in my opinion, means showing your kids that it's okay to feel.

[00:40:18] Michael: Yep.

[00:40:18] Kristian: That if they have struggles, it's okay to talk about them.

[00:40:22] Michael: Yep.

[00:40:22] Kristian: And I said this at the very beginning, but we are our children's compass for the world. If they grow up in a home where it's normalized to discuss their feelings and not be judged for it, that becomes their norm.

[00:40:38] Michael: Yeah.

[00:40:38] Kristian: An easy analogy for that is people who grow up in the home where they say I love you a lot, or, alright, I love you, talk with you later. Like they don't even think about how often they do that because that's been their norm

[00:40:49] Michael: Right.

[00:40:49] Kristian: and people otherwise, like what you say, I love you so much. We don't say that as much, but that's how that kind of plays out. I did a script for video. I was writing a script for a video I did a couple weeks ago about what it means to be a girl dad and how you can show up. And while writing it, I was getting super emotional. I was like, man, like I, I notice myself 'cause my daughter will never understand how much I love her. And she won't even get a fraction of understanding that because it's just something you feel. I'm being emotional right now.

[00:41:24] But when I was writing the script, I identified the three things that mattered that I feel like you get your children get out of you being modeling emotional honesty for them. And the one thing is that you show them that you're human and that you're not perfect.

[00:41:41] Michael: Right.

[00:41:41] Kristian: And this helps lessen those instances of perfectionism in your children, which by proxy will lower their levels of anxiety and make it feel okay to fail. Two, you show them that emotions are safe to have and to feel. And lastly, you reinforce to that central nervous system, that you are someone that they're safe with and that they can be honest and vulnerable with you and not be judged for it.

[00:42:14] Michael: Yep.

[00:42:15] Kristian: That lessens peer pressure issues in the future. That lessens so much stuff because they know that they can come to their dad, and say, dad, I have to ask you a question. Dad, I'm not feeling good. And you won't judge them for it, and you will validate their feelings and allow them to express it. And that brings y'all's connection even more intensely.

[00:42:35] Michael: Right.

[00:42:36] Kristian: So it's just balance and, and allowing yourself to try and be present with them emotionally.

[00:42:45] Michael: And so in order to do that successfully for your daughter, for any kid, for that matter, is you have to be vulnerable yourself, right, in order for them to be vulnerable to you, right? 'cause they're gonna mirror that back, that, that action, it, which leads me now in another direction, another question I, think a lot of dads have is in being vulnerable, when someone starts therapy for the first time, what surprises the most about the process?

[00:43:15] Kristian: Oof.

[00:43:16] Michael: Right, because there's, like this stigma, right, of therapy, I'm not sure I understand the reason why there is a stigma like therapy benefits a lot of people, myself included.

[00:43:27] Kristian: Myself included.

[00:43:28] Michael: Right. And it's just like, how do you, if you've never done it before, right, that anxiety comes back, right, of oh, what? I'm gonna go talk to this person. I don't know what they're going to do. Like what, when they, when somebody does start for the first time, and especially if you're a dad and you maybe aren't used to being vulnerable, you know what surprised them about the process? Why shouldn't they feel that stigma?

[00:43:54] Kristian: I think a lot of people come into therapy and expect it to be a magic wand that fixes everything.

[00:44:03] Michael: Yep. Right.

[00:44:04] Kristian: And I remind my clients all the time, you come here for one hour a week. I see you for one hour a week, and the rest of that you're on your own, so to speak, quote unquote. But so much of therapy is actually acceptance.

[00:44:19] It's exploration, it's self discovery. It's finding out who you really are and looking in the mirror with the, with that version of yourself that may not be pretty to look at. And then identifying, okay, how do I get to this point where I'm comfortable looking in the mirror? I'm comfortable looking at who I am and acknowledging that while I have flaws, I'm improving. I'm showing up for my children. I'm showing up for my parent, my partner. I'm showing up for myself. The studies show time and time again that the most important thing in therapy is not the therapy style. It's not the gender or the psychology or LPC or whomever. It's the connection. The connection is the most important part of therapy because without that connection, you won't believe anything I'm telling you. You won't feel anything I'm telling you. So, you have to find the right therapist and make sure that you vibe with them. Because eventually you'll begin to learn your patterns and you'll be able to see, okay, these are the mistakes I've continued to make in the past, and now that I've identified them, I can be better.

[00:45:37] I can do better. And another thing people don't necessarily think about initially is that it can be very slow sometimes. Like the amount of progress you can make, it may take a time. It may take a little bit because you're still, you might be working through so much in your programming and your backlog that you won't even get to the root of the issue until maybe week five, week six, maybe week seven. So, we've been told a lot as men is that we being vulnerable is weak.

[00:46:13] Michael: Right.

[00:46:14] Kristian: We've been told that we need to be strong at all costs. And going to therapy is the antithesis of that.

[00:46:21] Michael: Yep.

[00:46:22] Kristian: You are vulnerable. You are raw. You are trusting someone with your deepest thoughts and feelings and trusting that they won't mishandle them.

[00:46:33] Michael: Yep.

[00:46:34] Kristian: And that scares a lot of people.

[00:46:35] Michael: Absolutely. But the flip side of that is when you do get vulnerable with yourself, you strengthen yourself, right? And you, it comes back to that confidence in yourself that you want your children to have also,

[00:46:46] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:46:47] Michael: Right? Successful. Taking care of your mental health successfully means that you become more comfortable with who you are and you become more confident in who you are, which allows you to be the person you want to be more easily, more directly, and

[00:47:03] Kristian: A hundred percent.

[00:47:04] Michael: Right, and which then benefits your family.

[00:47:07] Kristian: Yes.

[00:47:08] Michael: Right, and at the end of the day, as dads, we want what's best for our family and those around us. And for some people, therapy's the way to get there, and it can be successful. So that's really interesting way of putting that. I appreciate that. Before we get to the, speed round, I wanted to ask you one more question.

[00:47:30] Kristian: Talk to me.

[00:47:30] Michael: What's a message you'd share with dads who feel like they're just getting by, but wanna feel more grounded and present?

[00:47:41] Kristian: I would say you don't need a massive overhaul of your life to start showing up for your family and for yourself. Start small. Intentional moments. A focused conversation with your kid beyond how was your day? Actually sit and ask why and probe and get to the meat of what happened during their day. Getting a little, adding a little depth to some of those questions is a good way to start and get that ball rolling. Check in with your partner. Ask about what you've been doing well and what are some areas you could offer more attention to. Even just a brief pause. Notice your own emotions, and again, say them out loud. Those moments add up, and, over time, they continue to create like a sense of purpose and momentum. And that can make the difference. You gotta start small, start somewhere, but start.

[00:48:37] Michael: Yep.

[00:48:38] Kristian: That's the main thing. You have to start.

[00:48:40] Michael: Absolutely. Asking questions without an agenda. And, for me, I found with my kids that the most valuable time is that time we spend in the car driving to practice, driving to a recital, like where it's just me and one of my kids and, or both my kids, and it's just asking them questions, and you never know what they might say at that point.

[00:49:03] And you might discover something new, right? And all of a sudden it's okay, now I can, if it's a challenge that they're having, maybe I can help direct them a little bit. If it's just something they're proud of, maybe I can share my joy for them, with them, and give them that extra confidence, that extra positivity that maybe they, or extra validation that they might be looking for.

[00:49:28] Kristian: Right.

[00:49:28] Michael: Right. I love that advice. That's a great message. All right, I wanna flip the script completely now and gonna go to the speed round which is a bunch of questions that have absolutely nothing to do with anything but have some fun with it. We'll see where it goes.

[00:49:43] Kristian: Okay.

[00:49:44] Michael: Alright, so, what's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:49:49] Kristian: Okay. So, I've been having the Ducktales theme song stuck

[00:49:54] Michael: Yes.

[00:49:54] Kristian: in my head.

[00:49:55] Michael: Finally, somebody answered that.

[00:49:59] Kristian: Ducktales, woo-ooh. That, it's, it's stuck in my head, man. Like I, I love that. I love that theme song.

[00:50:06] If it ain't that, then it's the hot dog, hot dog, hot diggity dog, the Mickey Mouse.

[00:50:13] Michael: Oh man. I'm so glad you said Ducktales. I've been waiting and waiting. I was hoping somebody would eventually come up with that one.

[00:50:19] Elite. Elite.

[00:50:21] Yes. That is maybe the single best any kids show.

[00:50:26] Kristian: I agree, man. I agree.

[00:50:27] Michael: What was your very first job?

[00:50:31] Kristian: My very first job, legal job was working as a cashier for Kroger. Not a cashier, I'm sorry, a bagger for Kroger. My first paying job was either washing cars with my dad or hauling trash away from the gentlemen's clubs in New Orleans. I was maybe 10 or 11.

[00:50:57] Michael: Wow.

[00:50:58] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:51:00] Michael: Excellent. Well, it's a speed round, so we're gonna move on to the next question, but I might add some extra questions down the road. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler sized T-Rex or a T-Rex sized toddler?

[00:51:17] Kristian: Maybe the toddler size T-Rex. I'm just thinking about how I'm gonna get a T-Rex sized toddler to bed, try to take a nap,

[00:51:27] Michael: Yeah,

[00:51:27] Kristian: or eat their food.

[00:51:28] Michael: Right.

[00:51:29] Kristian: So, I think I could if the toddler size T-Rex gets upset with me, I can just cut, put 'em in the bathroom and run away until I get animal control or something.

[00:51:40] Michael: Very practical answer. I like it. I like it. What's your go-to karaoke song?

[00:51:46] Kristian: If I have backup, it's Don't Go Chasing Waterfalls by TLC.

[00:51:50] Michael: Nice.

[00:51:51] Kristian: Because I cannot rap Left Eye's part at the end of it. But, if I'm alone, The Man Who Sold the World by Nirvana.

[00:51:59] Michael: Wow. That's a very interesting pair of songs, right? Two different, very different genres. I like it. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

[00:52:14] Kristian: I remember when I went to Texas State, I got my bachelor's there. Go Cats, my go Bobcats. My dad gave me a sack of quarters when I first moved in and he said, if you ever go broke, you got these quarters. They'll never forget that. So the day of my graduation, I'm down in my cap and gown and I find my quarters, and I said, okay, I know what I'm gonna do. So, I go across the stage, I shake the hand and I, find the camera, and I raise up my quarters like this. I didn't need it. I made it on my own. So,

[00:52:48] Michael: That's awesome.

[00:52:48] Kristian: that was the weirdest thing. Just a ack of quarters.

[00:52:51] Michael: On the graduation stage. I love it. That's awesome. Before we wrap up, Kristian, I'd love for you to share how listeners can connect with you, whether that's through your counseling practice, your resources for dads, or anything new you're working on right now. If anyone wants to learn more, where can they find you?

[00:53:07] Kristian: So I am currently on TikTok and Instagram, working on a YouTube channel for my long term content, but my TikTok page is TherapyTok with Kris, so that's T-H-E-R-A-P-Y-T-O-K-W-I-T-H-K-R-I-S and my Instagram is Therapy Talk with Kris and my YouTube will probably be the same as my Instagram page Therapy Talk with Kris. If you're in Texas and you ever want a consultation, my page is DistinctApproachCounseling.com. Just let me know. I offer free consultations. And if you ever just need to chat about anything my email is distinctapproachcounseling@gmail.com. So, if you wanna chat dad stuff, or just whatever, I'm available.

[00:53:57] I'm open to help out and talk about whatever.

[00:53:59] Michael: Awesome. Appreciate that. And all these we'll put links to all these in the show notes for this episode. Kristian, thank you again for joining us today. You gave such amazing ideas, great practical advice. I think we all have a lot to learn from your insights today, so I really appreciate that.

[00:54:15] Kristian: Pleasure.

[00:54:16] Michael: Thank you. Thank you. Finally, if you're a dad listening to this and trying to figure out what comes next, maybe you're in between jobs starting something new or just looking for more meaning in your work, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. And if you took something valuable from this episode, send it to a dad who you think could also benefit.

[00:54:31] Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs and this is Gap to Gig where we're building work that fits your life, not the other way around.

[00:54:37] ​