Kristian Leavell on Navigating Anxiety, Depression, and the Long Winter Season

[00:00:00] Kristian: Recognize that being strong doesn't mean you're being silent. It's incredibly powerful to name what you're feeling to someone, whether that be your, your partner, whether that be to your kids. Name, what you're feeling, because that vulnerability builds trust. Your, your kids, your wife, your, your husband, whomever.

[00:00:21] They see you as someone who can be honest with themselves and express that to them. Then they feel trusting that you are able to share that with them as well. So we have to recognize the idea that we can talk to our kids about emotions and then not be a bad thing.

[00:00:39] ​

[00:00:46] Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads re-imagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm joined again by Kristian Leavell, licensed clinical social worker, therapist, and dad. This is an episode I wanted to do since the, the very beginning and especially after I talked to you last time, Kristian. This is, we're in the dead of winter, can be a difficult time for many people, many dads, many families. Shorter days. It's cold. There's an emotional crash after the holidays. Oftentimes, that can kind of sit heavy with dads who wanna show up well for their kids, still managing their own mental health and so today I think we're gonna talk about winter depression, rising anxiety, the emotional weight that shows up in this quiet time of the year. How dads can bring warmth and steadiness into their homes even when they feel stretched thin and as you may have known, if you listen to the first episode with Kristian, he brings a grounded and compassionate perspective that I know is gonna resonate with a lot of dads listening today. So Kristian, welcome to the show. I'm so happy to have you back here today.

[00:01:55] Kristian: Hey, man, it's a pleasure to be back again.

[00:01:57] Michael: I appreciate you being here today. I wanna start right where a lot of dads are right now. This season can feel heavy, for sure, and when winter hits and life slows down, what changes in your own mood or mindset have you learned to pay attention to?

[00:02:13] Kristian: I think you, you kind of hit it on the head earlier when you just kind of said that there's just so much happening during winter. It's colder outside. We lose a lot of sunlight and sometimes, depending on your experiences through life, it can come with heavier thoughts. One of the things that I like to tell people is that winter can bring up a lot of memories of people who may no longer be here.

[00:02:38] That could be parents, that could be siblings, that could unfortunately be children, or that could even be your dog. So, it's very important to recognize that whenever this season comes along, because it does come along once a year to be on the lookout for what those feelings look like, and one of the most important things that I could tell someone is that we, you don't wanna try to fix these, these thoughts because they're thoughts, they are feelings, they come and they go. But you do want to notice it. You wanna notice what that looks like for you. You wanna notice what your body does in response to this season.

[00:03:14] Do you find yourself withdrawing? Do you find yourself becoming more irritable? Do you find yourself staying in bed longer? So once you are able to notice that, you're able to do action afterwards. Okay, i'm aware that my body's responding to this, this season in this way. Now, how do I change that? I, I dig into my actions.

[00:03:34] I can dig into my walking, I can dig into reconnect me, I can dig into my values. And the problem isn't necessarily feeling heavy because you will feel heavy from time to time. You will always feel heavy if this is your association with this, this system, but you want to make sure that we don't judge ourself for it, because that is only gonna exacerbate the problem.

[00:03:54] Michael: Right, right. So interestingly you say, recognize your feelings, like all your feelings, right?

[00:04:04] Kristian: Yes.

[00:04:05] Michael: If you have that thought or that feeling, it's real, it's valid, right? I, I think is what you're,

[00:04:10] Kristian: a hundred percent. A hundred percent.

[00:04:11] Michael: what you're saying here, and I think it's, you know it's easy as a dad to be like, okay, yes, I'm going through this, but I have other things to deal with.

[00:04:18] I have other priorities, but again, like we've talked about before, you still have to take care of yourself, right? And so you have to recognize what's holding you back. And, or what's holding you down or making you feel less than.

[00:04:33] Kristian: Mm-hmm.

[00:04:33] Michael: And, you know, in these shorter days there's less sunlight and maybe the, the weather is not warm enough where you live and you don't get to go outside as much and you get more negative feelings perhaps, and it's okay.

[00:04:47] Like, that is natural I think is what you're saying. But you have to recognize that yes, those feelings are valid and you have to acknowledge them.

[00:04:58] Kristian: Yes.

[00:04:59] Michael: So you can address them, so that you can do the things you want to do and be there for the people that you, that you wanna be there for.

[00:05:04] Kristian: 1000000%. And the thing that I always remind people is that feelings in and of themselves aren't negative. Right? Anger tends to get the biggest rap with being a negative emotion, so to speak. But anger, when channeled properly, could be something that yields beautiful results. It could yield beautiful art.

[00:05:23] It could put you in the gym where you're working out, getting consistent, wrapping your body's benefit, benefiting from it. So anger, sadness, whatever. These are just emotions that we all experience. It's our relationship with them that we need to make sure we reexamine and allow and, and remember that if we fail them, they don't control our life.

[00:05:45] They come, they sit, they stay for a while and eventually are replaced with a different emotion. Everything's transient.

[00:05:53] Michael: I love that. I never thought about the emotions are, in a way, fuel,

[00:06:00] Kristian: Yes,

[00:06:01] Michael: right, but you choose how to use that fuel, right?

[00:06:04] Kristian: A hundred percent.

[00:06:05] Michael: Like you said with anger, you could go to the gym and use that to motivate your workout, or you can utilize your anger in art if you know you're of the artistic bent.

[00:06:14] Kristian: And the same with sadness.

[00:06:16] Michael: Same with sadness, right.

[00:06:17] And, and also, you know, positive emotions too, I presume, right? When you look at it from the perspective of that they are essentially resources that are utilized. So, you know, as I said, fuel, right? Like I can use 'em for positive or I can use 'em for negative, and it's up to me like at the end of the day, I choose how I'm going to fuel my negative thoughts, whether that's sadness or it's anger or whatever it might be. If I feel sad 'cause I missed out on something, can I feel that to then make good of that sadness?

[00:06:50] Kristian: Exactly you can. It's, it's a choice.

[00:06:54] Michael: I think, in retrospect, I probably have subconsciously utilized emotions as fuel for when I played sports. Maybe I got that extra energy to, if I'm playing hockey, to skate it just a little bit harder or even in my art and, and drawing and, and trying new things of like, okay, maybe I can explore this a little bit more.

[00:07:19] Maybe I didn't realize I was doing it in the moment,

[00:07:21] Kristian: Right.

[00:07:22] Michael: but it's interesting to think now. Like that almost gives me a sense of control, right?

[00:07:27] Kristian: It does, doesn't it, doesn't it, though?

[00:07:30] Michael: Right. So it's like, now I've got these, like I know I'm gonna have the emotions, right? And they're not always gonna be positive. It's what I choose to do with them, but they're actually, they are a resource.

[00:07:41] They are a fuel.

[00:07:42] Kristian: Right. Like you, you mentioned hockey. That's a good one. And again, I'm not the most familiar with, with, with hockey, but I'm assuming if you're going up, running skating around the rink and someone checks you, knocks you into a glass, you set, you get angry, use that emotion, that fuel to skate harder to get to the puck.

[00:07:59] It's fuel, and I think you hit it right on the head by saying it as a resource that you can use, whether that be for the benefit of yourself or the detriment to yourself, just depending on how you figure it out.

[00:08:11] Michael: Absolutely. Now that I think of it about it when I coach hockey, when we're playing a team that might be playing a little dirty, I always pull my team aside at the end of the period and say, use, when they make a dirty play on you, don't retaliate. Don't utilize that anger in the moment to retaliate. Because it's the one that retaliates that gets the penalty, right? It's never the first player that caused a problem to begin with. But take that anger and use it to go get another shot on net.

[00:08:44] Kristian: Right.

[00:08:44] Michael: Go, you know, go skate a little bit harder than the, the guy that just tripped you.

[00:08:48] Kristian: Mm-hmm.

[00:08:49] Michael: Let them go to the penalty box. And you take advantage of that.

[00:08:53] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:08:54] Michael: Right. And I never realized like that is really just utilizing your emotion.

[00:08:57] Kristian: Yes, sir.

[00:08:58] Michael: Yeah, that's, that's really interesting. What a cool takeaway. All right, so I want to kind of circle back again to the, this time of year in that I'm, I'm kind of wondering, I know I keep saying like we don't see as much sunlight and it can be colder and the days feel longer. What is it exactly about this time of year that makes depression and anxiety spike for so many people? Is it just that or is there something more to it?

[00:09:23] Kristian: Well, I think that that plays a large role in it. On, on one hand, I feel like this season brings like kind of a shrinking of our own world. We tend to kind of turn inward toward our, our families if we have them. And then our thoughts tend to subsequently get louder as such. So, for example, you know, this season comes around, we think about as, as dads, we think about our kids.

[00:09:48] Okay, we have to figure out a way to get them the gifts that they can, that they wanna get. And then we have to figure out a way to still work and still be present and still get in the holiday spirit. And this could be happening all while you are thinking about, you know next year's bonus or the, or the money that you may, may not be getting.

[00:10:06] Or you could be thinking about family members that, that have passed. This season brings a lot of memories as well. So what tends to happen is once you're kind of caught up in this, this vortex of emotion, your, your world shrinks inward. You turn inward, and then you begin to avoid. You begin to avoid the things that make you feel grounded and make you feel rooted in your life, whether that is spending more time with your children, whether it is getting outside and, and walking, because if it's too cold, how are you gonna walk? Right? You have to find a different activity that may require more energy that you just may not have. So there's always this cascading set of factors that contribute to the winter season, especially in Chicago, right?

[00:10:51] You just can't do some of the things that you may normally have done because it's darker, it's colder outside and it may require more energy, which you just may not have. So, it's, pain becomes easier to notice when life gets smaller. When you turn inward, it becomes a lot easier to recognize areas in your life that are bleeding, so to speak.

[00:11:15] And I think that the winter just highlights that, that time for people in their lives.

[00:11:20] Michael: And beyond this anger or sadness that tends to show up, are there emotional patterns or thought loops that tend to come on during this time of year?

[00:11:35] Kristian: For sure. One of the most, the most common ones is that if you are feeling sad or you're feeling anxious or something, other dads are handling this better than I am. That's one of the most common ones I hear, or I should be more grateful. I'll deal with this stress that I'm feeling when things calm down and what this is and what we, what we call this in ACT is called cognitive fusion.

[00:12:01] It's you getting stuck inside the story that you tell yourself instead of noticing you're telling yourself a story.

[00:12:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:12:10] Kristian: That's one of the hardest parts for people to grasp is that we all have internal dialogue and we all tell ourselves stories throughout the day, but we have to be able to recognize that we are telling ourselves just that: it's a story and the thoughts aren't facts, no matter how much our brain wants us to believe it.

[00:12:31] Michael: Yeah. Interesting. And besides telling ourselves like how do we kind of break that loop?

[00:12:39] Kristian: I think we, we break the loop again by, once we, once we recognize that we're telling ourself a story, we can do this thing called opposite action. So that, so that would be doing the opposite of whatever the, the thought may be telling us to, that's more of a DBT skill. So, for example, if you are having a really rough, rough day, and you're, the story you're telling yourself is that, you know, you know, this is gonna be me. This is gonna be me for the rest of the month. Like I'm gonna continue to be stressed out, and I don't want to go to the gym. Let's just say that, for example.

[00:13:14] Michael: Sure.

[00:13:15] Kristian: One, you recognize the story you're telling yourself. I'm telling myself this story. Opposite action says, okay, I'm gonna do the opposite of what the story wants me to do.

[00:13:25] If the story wants me to stay home, I'm gonna find my way to the gym. If the story wants me to stay in the bedroom because I'm feeling worn down, but I know deep down that I value connection with my family, opposite action says I'm gonna go spend time with my family. So, it's about noticing the physiological symptoms as well as the psychological story you tell yourself and putting action to counter them.

[00:13:51] Michael: So get started.

[00:13:53] Kristian: Yes, sir.

[00:13:53] Michael: Right.

[00:13:54] Kristian: Always get started.

[00:13:55] Michael: Yeah. Don't just wallow in your story.

[00:13:58] Kristian: Because, because that can, that can be cumulative of sorts. I always liken a your, your thoughts, they, they can turn a snowball to an avalanche if you allowed them to. So once you are able to identify them immediately, physiologically, what are those symptoms?

[00:14:17] Psychologically, what's that story? Use action. And action doesn't have to be getting out for a run. It could be going connecting with your family. It can go stand outside and it's cold, right? Letting that winter air hit you 'cause sometimes that can shock your nervous system back to grounding instead of going from being whatever you were at, to kind of just being all over the place.

[00:14:39] That winter air, stepping outside can make you say, okay, let me, let me relax. Let me drop my shoulders, call back from my previous episode and get back to the things that matter most to me.

[00:14:52] Michael: Awesome. I love that. And I presume things like meditation or mindfulness would also fit into that of just like,

[00:14:59] Kristian: A hundred percent.

[00:14:59] Michael: stop, take a breath, and you know, recenter yourself.

[00:15:04] Kristian: And one thing about mindfulness that I think a lot of people may not realize that you can do it anywhere. Mindfulness does not have to be 10 minutes on the ground in a dark room. It could be while you're taking a shower. It's about just using the time intentionally to check in on yourself. It could be while you are at the stoplight.

[00:15:24] It could be while you're eating your dinner or your lunch. Mindfulness starts with where you're at and all it takes is intention for those 60 seconds to focus on you. That gets you the benefit of being mindful.

[00:15:37] Michael: I could not agree with you more. I've practiced mindfulness all over the place and nobody knows, right? You just turn inwards essentially.

[00:15:47] Kristian: You are. It's the intention.

[00:15:49] Michael: Of just like clearing your mind, of focusing on your breath or focusing on what's, you know, what's in front of you, literally.

[00:15:56] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:15:57] Michael: Yeah, so that's yeah. I love that. That's such a, a great tool to have

[00:16:02] Kristian: Love mine.

[00:16:03] Michael: In your back pocket. And like you said, anybody can do it. You don't need a skill. It's not like it's something you have to go to school for or get trained on. You just do it. And there are plenty of places can look online. If you can listen to a podcast, you can find a mindfulness exercise.

[00:16:21] Kristian: For sure. For sure.

[00:16:22] Michael: Right. So it's easy as opening up a web browser or asking somebody that's done it. But that said, so can dads spot those early signs of depression or anxiety in themselves before it builds something heavier? Or is it something that they can't really spot themselves, have to have be diagnosed?

[00:16:41] Kristian: It can take practice. It's a physiological change that tends to happen, and sometimes it can be psychological as well. But one of the things I like to tell people is that you notice the patterns, not necessarily the moods. You notice if you're being more short with your, with your kids. You notice if you're avoiding interactions with family or avoiding things that work, or if you feel like you're on autopilot, or if you feel like you're not engaging in your values-based systems, right?

[00:17:16] The things that bring you joy. So if you, you can look at it from a bunch of different approaches, but you can either look at it from what are the physiological signs, whether that be I'm sleeping too much, not little. I'm not grooming myself as much. I'm not showering as much, or you can look at it from the pattern side of things.

[00:17:34] Am I being less patient with my children? Am I avoiding my, my wife and my family? Am I living on autopilot? Both of those branches can be ways for you to spot the early signs of depression or anxiety and allow you to stop the snowball, like I mentioned earlier, from turning into an avalanche. You can watch the patterns.

[00:17:54] It may not, not necessarily the moods.

[00:17:57] Michael: Interesting. I don't think I ever realized how practical it can be to recognize in yourself the patterns or the, the physiological changes that they're going through. It really is just as simple as like, do I catch myself being short with my family? Do I catch myself sleeping in more than I normally sleep in or lack of sleep, right? And it can be as simple as that as like, as a starting point? It doesn't mean like you have it all figured out, but it's just like, okay, I recognize that now what can I do with it?

[00:18:36] Kristian: Exactly. I recognize it, now what can I do with that? Recognition is the most important skill that anyone can make mental-health wise going forward, because what your physiological signs of anxiety may be, they may not be the same as mine and that's why when you are being intentional, when you are being mindful, you are noticing where you carry your stress. That you're noticing how your breathing is changing and how it's, how it's, it's staying the same or not. That's where that being able to recognize comes into practice. And the more you are mindful, the more you have the ability to actually catch it before it snowballs. So, if we are able to catch it, when we are able to see, whenever I feel anxious, my chest tightens.

[00:19:19] Whenever I feel anxious, my feet jump up and down. They, they bop up and down, or I notice that I'm sweating or I have gastrointestinal issues. If I can reliably say when I'm having this, this, that, and a third, that means anxiety. Not only does that give you a shortcut to figuring out what the heck is going on with you, it allows you to have the action that much faster.

[00:19:40] I'm feeling anxious. Let me engage in value-spaced actions, or let me find some time for myself where I can ground myself, relax, and get back to the things that matter most to me.

[00:19:53] Michael: Love that. That's again, so practical of recognize, then act. On the surface to non-professionals like myself, it seems like it'll be complicated of like anxiety is this big black box that I've never fully unpacked and never really understood. But in reality, it's recognizing a pattern or a change, and once you recognize that, identify it, and then take action. Do something to take care of yourself to, so that you can continue on. I've seen it myself, having suffered through anxiety, having panic attacks in the past. Like, there are ways to overcome that. Right? And there are, and the first step has always been recognizing when it's coming on.

[00:20:49] Kristian: Right, right.

[00:20:50] Michael: When you

[00:20:50] Kristian: can recognize

[00:20:51] Michael: when it comes on, it's very easy to then utilize the tools that you've thought of previously to dial it back down.

[00:21:01] Kristian: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:21:04] Michael: , On the surface, before you've gone through it, it's nearly impossible to figure out.

[00:21:10] Kristian: Right, right.

[00:21:11] Michael: But once you're able to recognize that, it becomes manageable.

[00:21:15] Kristian: And I would even argue that you are a professional in a sense, but you are a professional of how your body responds to things and how you respond to that response. So many people don't even recognize when they say, whew, I'm feeling stressed. I need a drink. They're recognizing it in a sense that their body is under some type of distress, and they are searching for an outlet, and people can do that for 20, 30, 40 years and not even recognize that they are seeing that their body's responding to something.

[00:21:45] They're just choosing to, to cope with it by using a chemical or using a whatever, using a whatever. So you are a professional in of a sense. It's just the fact that sometimes we may not have the knowledge beforehand to say, to know what to look for versus what they've already been feeling. Kind of like a, a vibe versus being known, okay, I know that this is my body saying this.

[00:22:08] I can respond by that.

[00:22:11] Michael: Okay, so let me ask you this as a sort of follow up to what you just said. Is coping different than acting or is coping a part of an action you can take?

[00:22:25] Kristian: Good question. Good question. I think it all comes down to intention. Coping, so different therapy styles treat coping skills as a yay or as a nay. And most practitioners will kind of do the same based on their theoretical approach. I tend to use a bunch of different approaches, so I like coping skills, but some people who are theor- or are purists, who are ACT purists, they may not necessarily like coping skills because the whole positive act is that coping skills are meaningless because control is meaningless.

[00:23:04] So, to answer your question, coping skills are very useful and they are things that whenever you are intentional about doing can yield good results. So long as the intention is to utilize a, something that is positive in a sense of it being restorative for your spirit, your body, for your mind. Just like with anything and kind of alluding back to our situation we talked about earlier with using anger as a, as a fuel source, when mismanaged, it can have catastrophic results.

[00:23:37] If you are feeling stressed out, have been stressed out for a while, and you decide to go and drink or, or, or drug versus turn that into art, turn that into a session at the gym, turn that into a, a journal entry you write to yourself when you calm down, that's what the intention lies. So it, it really just depends on what you do with that skill and the intention behind the coping that whether that decides whether it's being meaningful and wellful versus the opposite.

[00:24:11] Michael: So there was one word you just used that just totally stopped me in my tracks. It, it make, because it just clarifies everything for me, which was restorative.

[00:24:19] Kristian: Restorative.

[00:24:20] Michael: Right? Because that's, that's the why behind doing this is to restore yourself to be the person that you really are and that you want to be for, for yourself personally, for yourself as a, as a dad, for yourself as a professional, whatever, you know, role you're playing in that moment.

[00:24:41] The reason you're doing all this is to restore yourself. The reason you're recognizing these issues is so that you can restore yourself.

[00:24:48] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:24:48] Michael: You can choose not to. You can choose to be. You can choose to go the destructive route, you can choose to go the non-action route, or you can choose to restore your wellbeing, your peace, your inner peace, so that you can be there for those that matter to you. And just as importantly, be there for yourself. I, I think that that word restorative just totally changed how I looked at this 'cause before it was more of a process. Recognize, take action, right? Now there's like, there's a meaning there that, that is the intention that I, I kind of pull away from this is like, that's the why.

[00:25:24] That is, at the end of the day, when it's the dead of winter like it is now

[00:25:31] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:25:31] Michael: and it's cold outside and the days are short and, you know, things might not be going as great as you want, you gotta restore yourself so that you can continue on. Make the day positive again and make the next day positive and get back to that place where you can really enjoy those days and get that excitement again, and be there for the ones that, that mean something to you, and be there to accomplish the things that are meaningful to you. So I just, I love that word, restorative. I don't know why, but it just hit me real hard when you said that.

[00:26:03] Kristian: Restorative is gonna be the word for, for, for this video, I feel for, for this episode.

[00:26:08] Michael: yes.

[00:26:08] Kristian: Kind of like the, the, the drop your shoulders, the swamp was the last one. I think that's gonna be the one for this one.

[00:26:14] Michael: Yeah. That, that one there is, that's a a very valuable word. Yeah.

[00:26:19] Kristian: Yes, sir.

[00:26:20] Michael: Yeah. All right. So many dads, they want to appear strong for their families, right, and, they also, you know, especially at this time of year, it's like how can they share what they're going through without feeling like they're adding more weight to their household, to their, to their spouses, to their partners, to their children, to their coworkers, their friends? Like how do they still stay strong, but be able to share what they're going through?

[00:26:51] Kristian: For sure, and I think the most important thing whenever we define that is to recognize that being strong doesn't mean you're being silent. It's incredibly powerful to name what you're feeling to someone, whether that be your, your partner, whether that be to your kids, name what you're feeling because that vulnerability builds trust.

[00:27:15] Your, your kids, your wife, your, your husband, whomever, they see you as someone who can be honest with themselves and express that to them, and then they feel trusting that you were able to share that with them as well. So, we have to recognize the idea that we can talk to our kids about emotions and that not be a bad thing.

[00:27:36] Saying that Daddy had a rough day at work is not a bad word. Because what it does is if you treat it as such, your children will see that as well. If you, if they recognize that you've had a rough day and you don't speak about it, you go out, you carry on with the day and you're just kind of mean and, and short tempered, they're gonna say that when they feel something, I can go about my day and not share that with dad and be mean and short tempered as well. And who are they to say, why, why don't you tell me what's going on when you can't do that to your kids either? And just think about the times that you've had a really rough period and you want potentially someone to share that to.

[00:28:15] If there's this air of I have to be strong and silent and stoic, then all you're doing is turning those feelings inward. And, you know, let's forbid, your child, your children have really rough episodes of depression and they don't feel like they have anyone to turn to. Maybe they turn to someone online who isn't, who doesn't have their best interest.

[00:28:37] Maybe they turn inward. Maybe that turns into something that could be catastrophically worse 'cause they don't feel that they can trust that words and emotions aren't safe within the confines of y'all's relationship. So, we have to begin to pair strength with being vocal about our mental health. Strength about being vocal about our emotions, and over time, that, that shows our children that, hey, Daddy's able to talk about this so I can talk about this.

[00:29:05] Daddy didn't judge me. I didn't judge Daddy, so Daddy's not gonna judge me. That strength and that trust just continues to build time and time again. And before you know it, it's a normal part of the conversation. It isn't, it isn't this big struggle internally about saying that you had a rough day or that you're feeling down today.

[00:29:24] It's, yeah, you know, Daddy's feeling down, but Daddy's still here. Daddy's still showing up. Daddy's still giving you his best 'cause children will see that, and they will mirror that as well. They will have a rough day at work and still try to show up for you. Just as you do for them.

[00:29:40] Michael: It's so incredibly important. I don't think I realized just how important until you just laid it all out there of not only does sharing what you're going through or what you're feeling help others be able to help you, but it also builds trust and in your relationship with your spouse or your partner, or even with your friends, but also with your children. Like if they can't trust you to be vulnerable, how can you expect them to be vulnerable back?

[00:30:14] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:30:15] Michael: And it is incredibly important that those around you know that it is okay. It is safe to share your emotions for their own wellbeing and for your wellbeing, and, oh, it's such an important message. And I just, I never had, again, learning here on the spot of like never putting or thinking about it as a form of trust.

[00:30:36] Kristian: Right.

[00:30:38] Michael: I always just thought about it as, okay, you show it's okay to do, but really you're, it's relationship building,

[00:30:45] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:30:46] Michael: right? And if they can't trust you to share with them, how can you trust them to share with you or how can you expect them to share with you?

[00:30:55] Kristian: Exactly. Exactly.

[00:30:57] Michael: So important. I, I appreciate you lining all that up, outlining it for us 'cause I don't think I just realized quite how the impact of, of what that means.

[00:31:08] Kristian: And not, not many dads do. Hell, not many therapists do. You know what I mean? Therapists are well versed in these, these these theories and these application of theories, and it's so easy to externalize that and not do it yourself. And that was one of the big things that I had to learn once I had my daughter was okay, I have to say, I have to be able to talk to my child about what I'm feeling, and they have to know that emotions are safe. Because there's nothing wrong with them. We all experience emotions. It's, it's not a taboo thing to experience, to express. But the more I do that with her, the more she'll do that with me, and the more she feels safe and I feel safe and it's just this thing that multiplies to the point that where you have a very strong relationship with your child and they can trust you. They, they don't see that as a bad word or the boogeyman, so to speak. It's y'all's relationship, and the more you invest in it, the more returns you'll see over time.

[00:32:10] Michael: Right, and it's, you're not weak, per se, by sharing your emotions, right? It's actually you're being strong,

[00:32:18] Kristian: You are

[00:32:19] Michael: stronger by sharing them because now you're strengthening your family, your children, to recognize that it's okay.

[00:32:26] Kristian: Right.

[00:32:27] Michael: We all have emotions.

[00:32:28] Kristian: Weak would be to recognize that you have these emotions, want to express them, and say that you don't want to express them in this sense. Strength is saying, I'm feeling these emotions. I'm feeling the anxiety of wanting to express these emotions, but I'm gonna share them anyway because I know that this is what courage looks like.

[00:32:48] Michael: Right, right. So even if dads can share their emotional needs or share their emotions with their families, oftentimes I feel like, and the dads I've talked to, that the, they still have this pressure of providing,

[00:33:09] Kristian: Mm-hmm.

[00:33:10] Michael: They feel like they are a provider. Their spouse could also be a provider, but they feel like, okay, I can't do both the providing and take care of my emotional needs.

[00:33:23] And they both kind of feel urgent, like, I need to do both. I need to earn a living and I need to recognize my emotions. Is there a way to start to balance that?

[00:33:35] Kristian: Yes, you can, you can balance that. Being a provider, in a sense, we talked about this, this last time. It's kind of, we have to be able to redefine what that actually means.

[00:33:49] Michael: Right.

[00:33:50] Kristian: And providing could be just actually showing up for your family. It could be being attentive. It could be giving them the love and that tension that, that they want and that they, they need, so to speak.

[00:34:02] I, I feel that as long as we keep the intention to be as grounded within the confines of our relationship with our family, we're doing the best we can. It's not always gonna be easy, though. Like there, there will continue to be times where we struggle and there will be times where sometimes we don't make the best decisions in terms of, in terms of what we're feeling and how we express that, but we have to do our best to be there and rooted for our family. It's not easy. It will never be easy. It gets better with time, but that's the thing we have to focus on redefining what that provider looks like from being the guy or the person who goes out and and clubs the animal and brings the back to the house to being someone that shows up and that's an anchor.

[00:34:58] For, for your partner, for your children. Stable, stability and consistent are the things that should be what a provider is.

[00:35:08] Michael: Stable, stability, and consistent.

[00:35:11] Kristian: Consistent.

[00:35:12] Michael: And even when things aren't fine, is that what you need then to still have a positive presence in the home? Is it those three things?

[00:35:23] Kristian: very strongly believe that 'cause caring for your mental health is providing.

[00:35:28] Michael: Yep.

[00:35:29] Kristian: It is providing. Because think about it, what happens when you don't meet your own needs? You, that cost tends to show up later in lack of patience, lack of presence,

[00:35:39] Michael: yeah

[00:35:40] Kristian: lack of physical or mental health.

[00:35:42] So there is an opportunity cost of not providing and caring for your own mental health. So if we, if we shift that definition to being consistent, we shift that definition to hitting all those metrics, then we are actually providing. It just takes a frame shift to actually implement it and then believe what you're doing.

[00:36:04] Michael: That's a great point. The, the opportunity costs, in particular, if you don't take care of yourself now, how are you, you're essentially giving up the opportunity to be there for those that you care about later. If a dad doesn't like they have someone they can open up to, how can they start to build connections that actually feel supportive?

[00:36:28] Kristian: Activity first. We have to figure out something that we enjoy doing. And this goes back to our last talk about finding a skill or a hobby, something that you just actually enjoy doing. So finding an activity first, then you add depth to it later. Learning to accept that there may be awkwardness whenever you introduce yourself to a group or to a forum or to something that you just, that you don't have.

[00:36:56] Because a lot of the times we struggle with the idea of being perfect, having to, to master something before we can talk about it or be a part of an ingroup or whatever. But perfectionism is the, is the enemy. Connection grows through action. So we have to find that one thing that we want to do that we enjoy doing, and in building that connection later.

[00:37:21] For example, I always use Reddit as one, as something because Reddit, there is a, a subreddit for any and everything.

[00:37:28] Michael: Yes.

[00:37:29] Kristian: For woodworking, for mechanical stuff, for fixing the fence. There's a Reddit forum for it. So at the very minimum, find you something you enjoy and then post in a Reddit forum.

[00:37:42] Michael: Yep.

[00:37:42] Kristian: At the minimum, you will find people who are like-minded and who will be able to share tips.

[00:37:46] And you can share tips as well and find yourself into the end group. But it starts with actually having an activity and then accepting that it may be awkward to introduce yourself, but still following through with it. Again, it's that, it's that swamp metaphor.

[00:38:01] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Okay, so let's flip the question around for dads that are doing okay, that are feeling good right now, how can they support or do for each other or help their fellow dads who maybe feel isolated right now?

[00:38:25] Kristian: So what I would say is that just reach out. Reaching out. That's probably one of the smallest things that we can do is reach out to a friend, to a family, and say, or whomever, and say, how have you been doing? Just, just easy, just to check in. How's winter treating you, really?

[00:38:47] Michael: Yep.

[00:38:48] Kristian: Because we get so, it's so easy to say, oh yeah, everything's fine. But then when you add that really in there, it kind of leaves the door open for you to be a little bit more vulnerable. And we don't need to fix whomever's problem, but we wanna give them the opportunity to talk about it and let it be expressed and us receive it and not necessarily treat it as a thing that they need to be fixed.

[00:39:14] But just checking in frequently if you can. I, I even believe that some iPhones have an option where you can schedule a message nowadays. So even if you just say, I want to check in with Steve. I want to check in with Marc. I wanna check in with Mike. Right? Put that in there. Let me check in with them and ask them how they're, how they're actually doing right now.

[00:39:35] And make sure that you specify how they really are doing. It gives them the opportunity to kind of cut through some of that, that, oh yeah, everything's fine. Thing's are going good. Probe further. Ask what's really happening. Ask how work is going. Ask how their relationships are going. Ask how they've been feeling.

[00:39:52] But we have to try to actually reach out to the people because sometimes, like you said, it, like winter gets to be, to be kind of rough sometimes. People turn inward and then they may be so focused on themselves and, and having tunnel vision just trying to survive that they may forget that other people do actually care about them.

[00:40:11] Michael: And it's so simple to do, right? It doesn't take, you don't have to write a novel, right? You just, couple of quick messages back and forth and it shows, it, it gives the other person something to lean onto. Like,

[00:40:29] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:40:30] Michael: Yes, there is somebody that does care. There is somebody that if I needed to, I can talk to, I can, they can help me kind of at least just listen, like be that support just to, to listen and here what I have to say it just by expressing what is on my mind that might help me identify what is holding me back in the moment. Right? So, then I can, like, like you said, you don't have to, as the person reaching out, you don't have to have all the answers.

[00:40:59] Kristian: Nope.

[00:40:59] Michael: You are just there, right?

[00:41:02] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:41:02] Michael: That is more than half the battle.

[00:41:05] Kristian: It is, it is. And people, whether we acknowledge it or not, we, we recognize whenever someone's trying to foster that kind of relationship. And sometimes we may not be in the, in the space to give them our all in terms of having the full conversation, but we some, we remember that when someone was there for us, someone, someone tried to reach out to us or when we were going through a rough period and someone says, you know, Hey Kris, man, I haven't heard from you in a while. What you thinking about you? You've been doing okay. That, that we feel that, and that leaves an impact on our, on our mental as far as we, hey, we know that, you know, this guy's, he, he worries about us, he thinks about us every now and then, and we can actually lean into that and become that stabilizing presence, not as a therapist or not as a doctor or another medical professional, but as a friend, as someone who actually cares for their fellow brother and or whomever saying, hey, I thought about you. I just wanted to check in, make sure you were doing okay. It's cold outside. You know, you can crack a little joke in there, but the intention and the action is half the battle.

[00:42:12] Michael: Yep. Absolutely. So, I, I wanna ask you, I wanna get your thoughts on a couple of things real quick.

[00:42:20] Kristian: Okay.

[00:42:22] Michael: So let's say that you reached out to Kris, and Kris is going through some stuff, and they do recognize that they might be failing or falling behind, or they feel like they're just not themselves right now. What is a mindset shift that can help them start climbing out of that feeling?

[00:42:41] Kristian: Right. So a mindset shift for them is to start small somewhere, anywhere. I think that there's so much value in stepping outside and actually feeling the weather. Sure if it's cold, sure if it's hot, whichever, your body responds to that stimulus, that outside interaction, whether it is the cold or whether it is the heat.

[00:43:09] So being able to say, I'm stepping outside. I'm feeling the heat, I'm feeling the cold, and if I am kind of dealing with my own anxiety, and my own depression, being exposed to those elements can shock a nervous system back to regulation. It can kind of help ground you some. So I would say, you start with that, probably any kinda pressure-free movement, just getting outside, not with the goal of running a mile or walking a mile, but just doing something.

[00:43:40] Getting outside in some type of pressure-free environment, and then asking yourself, what am I feeling right now? What matters to me today? Or what story am I telling myself? These are the things that kind of help us check in on ourself and help separate us, separate us from the stories that we tell ourself and the, the feelings that may, we may have become enmeshed in over time due to isolation, due to grief, due to marital issues, or whatever.

[00:44:15] But whenever we ask ourselves these questions, even sometimes out loud, it helps engage in so many of your, your systems and can help pull you out of that a little bit, just enough to where you can actually get out and go for a walk, or you can get out and drop your shoulders a bit. It all starts with just very small intentional movements.

[00:44:35] Michael: Yep. I like that you, how you're emphasizing small. Like it doesn't have to be this big thing. Just take the one step, right? You're not gonna complete a marathon today.

[00:44:48] Kristian: Yeah.

[00:44:49] Michael: You're not gonna complete a marathon ever if you don't take that first step, so you gotta take one step, right?

[00:44:54] Kristian: Yeah,

[00:44:54] Michael: And it can be as simple as just opening the door and stepping outside.

[00:44:58] Kristian: Stepping outside. Go get the mail. Bring the mail in if you have a mailbox outside, or go down to the end of the block and walk back. Very easy, very low pressure. It's just something to get your body moving, and there is something in accomplishing a task that can help pull us out of this as well.

[00:45:14] It's why one of the most common things that we tell people who are depressed is to start by cleaning up your room. Because if it, if you clean up your room, you accomplish something, and then that can become its own reinforcing principle. Okay, the room is clean, lemme go wash the dishes. Okay, the dishes are clean.

[00:45:32] Let me go do this. It can build upon itself, but it will never build if you don't start.

[00:45:37] Michael: Right, right. It's essentially fuel again,

[00:45:40] Kristian: fuel. Exactly.

[00:45:41] Michael: you use that then to heat up whatever you're trying to, to make better

[00:45:47] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:45:48] Michael: right? It's, I love how it's, again, it's practical because you only have to take that first step.

[00:45:55] Kristian: That's,

[00:45:55] Michael: And I imagine also that taking that, physically taking that first step changes your environment, changes your, allows you to then change your perspective, right?

[00:46:03] Kristian: Yes.

[00:46:04] Michael: You're not staring at the same wall, you're not staring at the, the same environment. Now you've gone from inside to outside or whatever you might be doing next, but it, it just, it forces you physically to change your environment,

[00:46:16] Kristian: a hundred percent.

[00:46:17] Michael: Which then changes your perspective. So what would you say to a, a dad who doesn't feel like himself right now, but wants to believe that things will get better?

[00:46:27] Kristian: That you may not necessarily be broken, you just may be overloaded at the moment, right? You may be going through a lot and the best way to move forward is a small step toward your value system, whether that'd be engaging with family, whether that'd be engaging with yourself, whether that'd be engaging in something.

[00:46:53] And that winter passes like every other season. Emotions pass. They're transient in nature. So, there will be a point in time where you don't feel the intensity of that emotion you're feeling now. That's the principle behind acceptance and commitment therapy is that all emotions, all the feelings are temporary. For better or for worse. They are temporary. So, you are right now, you may be in a high acuity state. Next week, you probably won't be. But knowing that, hey, if I want to facilitate my way toward that, that person that I want to be, that I want to cross the swamp, it starts with a small step toward that action.

[00:47:36] So a small step toward my values and reengaging with the person that I once was prior to feeling like how I am now.

[00:47:44] Michael: Right. Love that. right, we're gonna move on to the speed round. We're gonna totally flip things around going from

[00:47:50] Kristian: Okay. I am ready.

[00:47:53] Michael: talking about anxiety and depression and very serious topics to things that have nothing to do with anything. And they are different questions from the last time.

[00:48:01] Kristian: Okay. Okay.

[00:48:02] Michael: All right. If you could swap jobs with any cartoon dad for a week, who would it be?

[00:48:12] Kristian: Cartoon Dad, I'm gonna go, okay, okay. I'm gonna go George Jetson. And I'm gonna say that because it's the future. They're flying cars. I have a maid. I can press a button and get a sandwich made. I just think about the convenience of living in the future. George Jetson.

[00:48:35] Michael: Sometimes I wonder if me and you are the same person. We would have the exact same answer. Alright, next question. What's the most questionable thing you've ever MacGyvered together?

[00:48:47] Kristian: Ooh, okay, okay. So I'm not very handsy. I'm the first person to ever admit that a very like hands-on kind of guy. But I was living in Houston back in 2021 maybe and we had a really bad freeze. I mean, knocked out the power. Houston was down for a week, more or less. And we didn't, I didn't have any candles in the house.

[00:49:08] No, nothing. So I found some crayons and I remember reading five years ago or so, that if you, you can make a candle out of a crayon if you burn the tips of it. So what I did was, because we didn't, I didn't have any light or I didn't have any kind of electricity in, in my apartment at the time. So I got me some crayons that I found, kind of burn them, had a nice little controlled setting and I was able to keep a little bit warm during that time period because again, we were, we were without, in my area of electricity for about five to six days, it was pretty rough.

[00:49:42] Michael: Wow, that is legit impressive. You turned crayons into warmth and light.

[00:49:49] Kristian: It, it burned for about 30, 40 minutes, so it was something, it helped.

[00:49:56] Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Alright, if you had, if your life had a soundtrack, what would be the opening track?

[00:50:04] Kristian: There's a, one of my favorite gym songs, one of my favorite running songs is called Crash the Gates. It's by Yellowcard. It's basically about overcoming the outside noise and like forging your inner strength. So, I would probably say like that one because whenever I hear the song, I think about all the stuff I've overcome in my life and how I've had to kind of pull from my, my own internal fortitude to kind of get things done at different times in my life.

[00:50:34] So I really connect with that song. That's probably the one I would go with.

[00:50:37] Michael: I love that. That's awesome. What hobby or skill would you love to wake up instantly great at?

[00:50:43] Kristian: Okay, so I've been p-, I've been learning Spanish the past couple of years for my daughter 'cause she's learning to speak it as I'm learning to speak it. So it's been pretty excellent. I'd say either Spanish or probably to be a kicker in the NFL because stay, stay with me here.

[00:51:00] Stay with me here. Pension,

[00:51:03] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:03] Kristian: consistent job,

[00:51:05] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:06] Kristian: Million or so a year and low injury risk. Come on.

[00:51:12] Michael: I

[00:51:13] Kristian: Come on,

[00:51:14] Michael: Again, I do wonder if we, me and you are the same person because being a kicker is the ideal professional course, right?

[00:51:22] Kristian: It's perfect. It's perfect. Come on.

[00:51:22] Michael: Yeah. And you outlined the perfect benefits, so, yeah,

[00:51:26] Kristian: Yes.

[00:51:28] Michael: you nailed that question for sure.

[00:51:29] Kristian: No CTE.

[00:51:31] Michael: No CTE, right. What's one item in your house that your daughter think is, might think is boring, but you secretly love?

[00:51:38] Kristian: The bed. Perfect. She hates to get in the bed. I, I get, put me in the bed. Lemme take a nap. Let me go to sleep at 8:30. I love it. She hates it. She doesn't want anything to do with it. The bed. Hands down. Hands down.

[00:51:55] Michael: That's awesome. That's awesome. All right. You've survived another speed round. I appreciate it. Before we wrap up, I'd love for you to share how listeners can connect with you, whether that's through your counseling practice, anything new you're working on right now. Anyone who wants to learn from you or learn more, where can they find you?

[00:52:14] Kristian: So I am on the social medias. TikTok. I am on, I am TherapyTok with Kris. That's T-H-E-R-A-P-Y-T-O-K with K-R-I-S. I am on Instagram and YouTube at Therapy Talk with Kris. If you are interested in just reaching out to me for just basic conversation and you just having whatever questions that I don't mind helping with that. You can reach out to me on my website, distinctapproachcounseling.com, and I'm working on a few other things right now, but those are the best ways to meet, to reach out to me. I'm always open to chat. I'm always open to talk with other dads about, about life, even if you're just talking about whatever. So feel free to reach out to me, let me know what's going on and I'd be open to chat always.

[00:53:08] Michael: Yeah, and I will say your TikTok and Instagram are incredible. Like, if you like this conversation, and you're listening to this show today, you have got to subscribe,

[00:53:19] Kristian: Thank you, man.

[00:53:20] Michael: to

[00:53:20] Kristian: I'm trying my best, honestly,

[00:53:23] Michael: All the time. They're just, they're just gem. It's gem after gem after gem, and they're, they're real like it's, you feel it and you have such a clear way of communicating really important topics that just makes it easy to understand.

[00:53:40] So definitely gotta follow that, and thank you again Kristian, for this conversation and for helping dads navigate a season that it can really feel heavy sometimes and we don't always admit it. And I know this is a conversation that needs to be had that isn't had frequently enough. Particularly for dads and the way you present your insight and your warmth and do it in a way that is, provides practical guidance is just, it makes it so enlightening, at least for me, and I think for a lot of other dads of, like, you can, you can get through these days, the, the tough ones, and you'll get back to those great days.

[00:54:24] And if you are doing well right now. It's great to recognize that also,

[00:54:27] Kristian: Exactly.

[00:54:29] Michael: and you have such a a great poise to how you present this information

[00:54:35] Kristian: Thank you.

[00:54:36] Michael: and you make it very understandable for, for dads everywhere. So I appreciate you joining.

[00:54:43] Kristian: Of course.

[00:54:43] Michael: Thank you for coming on again.

[00:54:44] Kristian: Thank you.

[00:54:45] Michael: And, finally, if you're a dad listening to this and trying to figure out what comes next, maybe you're in between jobs, starting something new, or just looking for more meaning in your work, head to GapToGig.com to subscribe to the Gap to Gig Newsletter. And if you took something valuable from this episode, send it to a dad you think could also benefit. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs, and this is Gap to Gig, where we're building work that fits your life, not the other way around.

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