March 31, 2026
Loren Silverman on Reclaiming Your Identity Beyond Productivity
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What happens when your self-worth quietly becomes tied to your output?
After nearly two decades leading digital transformation work for major brands, Loren Silverman realized that success on paper didn’t equal fulfillment in real life. The titles, the grind, the constant responsibility all looked right from the outside. But underneath, something felt off.
That realization didn’t lead to a dramatic overnight reinvention. It led to something much simpler and far more powerful: pause, awareness, and small, repeatable shifts.
Today, Loren helps high-responsibility professionals untangle identity from productivity, align actions with values, and build healthier boundaries without losing ambition.
Loren shares how to:
• Recognize when your reaction is bigger than the moment
• Separate your identity from your professional output
• Align daily actions with personal values
• Protect energy, not just time
• Use small, consistent changes instead of heroic life overhauls
• Practice active listening to improve presence at home
• Create boundaries that actually hold under pressure
• Reframe slowing down as strength rather than weakness
• Catch burnout before it becomes depletion
• Pause long enough to make better decisions
This conversation is thoughtful, grounded, and practical for any dad who feels stretched between responsibility and presence, and wants a steadier, more intentional way forward.
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Loren: [00:00:00] I hadn't experienced the, the other day where I felt slighted, you know, and it was a text message that I'd gotten from a colleague, and I felt like I instantly had what I, what I termed righteous indignation. I felt that they were not treating me as I deserved.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: And the reaction, the, the awareness that I'm so grateful for today.
Again, you know, this didn't happen overnight. It was through some hard work and some real like self discovery.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: But the awareness that I had that this reaction was way oversized for what I was receiving
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: was a signal to me that there was something else going on underneath my reaction.
Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we [00:01:00] talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm excited to be joined by Loren Silverman. Loren spent nearly 20 years leading digital transformation work for major brands, but along the way he realized something important.
The technology was never the most meaningful part. It was the people behind it. After experiencing burnout, emotional disconnection, and the long-term impact of early survival patterns, Loren chose to step back, reassess, and rebuild. That work led him to create Silverman Coach and Life Reboot: Nerd Edition where he helps thoughtful, high responsibility people set better boundaries, and turn insight into real change without overwhelm.
Loren's work is grounded, practical, and deeply human, and I'm really excited to chat with you today, Loren. So, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.
Loren: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Michael: My pleasure. So, one of the things that really stood out to me in your story is how early experiences shaped how you showed up as an adult, especially around work and responsibility and self-worth.
When you look back on your career in tech and [00:02:00] digital transformation, what was the first sign that something felt off for you personally?
Loren: You know, probably when it became more about the, the, it became more about the title, the salary the, it became more about the work than about life,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you know?
Michael: Right. The sort of the depersonalization of it, right? Like it was, you were, the thought was like, okay, what do I have to do next as opposed to what is this doing for me? Would that be a fair assumption?
Loren: Yeah, totally. It was constantly, you know, grinding and, and just giving over your life to the mission of the company.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And, at first that seemed like a, hey, you know, like a, this is a larger than myself, this is a bigger thing than me. I can get behind that, right?
Michael: Right.
Loren: But not at the sake of your own identity. And,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: and [00:03:00] that's where it crosses over into, you know, the danger zone.
Michael: Right, right. That makes sense. So you've talked about tying self-worth to productivity for you at a very young age. How did that belief quietly kinda show up in your work before you were really aware of it?
Loren: Yeah. You know, I, I just remember being a kid and you know, not having a summer job and, and being, you know, hammered by my dad about that and, and that definitely was the signal to me that the thing that you like, just doing something is more important necessarily than like what you do.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: So, you know, I, I graduated from college with a with a degree in speech and a focus on technical theater and was a stage manager right out of college, but it wasn't fulfilling, you know? So, I have changed kind of careers or direction [00:04:00] a few times in my life. I'm appreciative of my flexibility in being able to do that. But, each, you know, each step has been kind of like a, a, a decision point and a, a, like a growth jumping-off point.
Michael: Sure, sure. So, many dads listening are, they're responsible, they're capable, and they do what they believes expected of them, right? And I, I think, you know, from what you're saying that was, you know, when you graduated college, you expected to, you know, go into stage management and things of that nature, I suppose. From your perspective, where does that sense of obligation start to become an actual problem?
Loren: You know, again, I think it, I think it has to do with how grounded you are in your own identity and where your values are. So, a lot of the work I do these days is about aligning your actions to your values. And some people need to even figure out [00:05:00] what their values are to begin with.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: So, that's one of the first exercises I do with people when they, when they, when I work with them, is, let's take a look at your values.
Let's figure out what's important to you because then when you're acting on those things that are important to you, life is just so much smoother and easier and, and you're more free, right? You don't have the, the friction that comes with doing something that, that is against your value system. And that's one of the things that I found in, in technology when I was working for these large companies.
I really didn't have a say in who I worked with, and, you know, a lot of these corporations are not aligned with my values. And so, you know, grinding and doing the work and trying to like accomplish the thing having become more important than, you know, my value system against identity, right? Giving over my identity to this other entity
Michael: Right.
Loren: For, you know, for the sake of some [00:06:00] other person's mission. So.
Michael: Yeah, I like how you, you don't conflate action with values, right? They're, they're two separate things. It's very easy to fall into that routine of like, okay, this is what's expected of me. This is what I need to do every day. This is what my job calls for. But you were able to recognize that, like, just doing that and not doing it for the right purpose wasn't meaningful for you.
And it was like, okay, my values are not aligned with my actions on a regular basis right now and...
Loren: Yeah, we're kind of taught, or at least I was anyway, that, you know, you're me, like the, the measure of success is in not how you serve. It's in like what you do. It's in the things that you accumulate. It's in the, my measure of success these days is the, the effect of the people that I'm able to impact.
Michael: Yeah. I love that. That, yeah.
Loren: That [00:07:00] gets me up in the morning.
Michael: Right.
Loren: It gets me up in the morning more than, you know, doing the thing for the company that I really don't care about or who is not aligned with my value system.
Michael: Right, but at the same time, people have to provide, right, for themselves. They have to earn a living. They have to be able to put food on the table, and get a roof over their heads. And, but you're, what you're saying is like, there is, you don't have to compromise your values necessarily to do that. It might not always be easy to align your actions with your values, but you can do it. And if that is meaningful to you, then it's something to, to attempt to achieve. How do you help people recognize when they're sort of unintentionally trading just this idea of being a provider with being present? How, like if they're struggling to balance those two.
Loren: Yeah, so awareness is key. I ask people a lot [00:08:00] of questions. That's mainly what I do. I ask questions, and I listen, and I, and I, you know, I'm trained to find the things that, that stand out, right? So, asking a lot of questions of people and, and, you know, really kind of, yeah, someone, what's important to you?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And you listen for the answer.
Michael: Right.
Loren: And you could kind of tell if they're BSing or they're shallow, or there's something that they're really moved about and they're driven about, you know? You have a different kind of, even right now while I'm talking to you, I feel it in my body. I feel like the energy increasing, you're responding, you know, there's like a synergy because this is fun.
This is what, and I don't think you have to compromise your value systems to earn a living, right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: What's important to you? So, if money is important to you and that's your main driver, then that's the feedback and the input that you're gonna get.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Whether or not that makes you feel good or valuable as a person, you know, that's, that's
Michael: Right.
Loren: each individual has their own value [00:09:00] system and what's important to them.
Michael: Right.
Loren: I've, I found out through my journey of theater to, was in the wholesale jewelry industry for 12 years to technology that, you know, it's the, the people are what was important to me.
It wasn't actually the launching of the website or the getting the thing done. It was watching the other people around me grow and me having had an influence in that.
Michael: And I imagine those as you transition between careers, the, those things didn't happen overnight, right? It was, it's a process, right? And you take it one step at a time. It's like, okay, I'm starting to realize that my values don't align with my actions. How do I start to change that? And for some people, like they can't change it overnight because you still need to earn that paycheck, but maybe you start doing something in your free time. Maybe you put in an hour on the weekend or an hour after work to start to get to that place that you want to [00:10:00] get to.
Loren: Yeah, a hundred percent. I teach small actions, towards a goal
Michael: Yep.
Loren: are way more important than, you know, kind of like big jumps or grand, you know, heroic maneuvers.
Michael: Right.
Loren: It's that consistent and persistent. You know, that's been a lot of, part of my success is just the persistence in allowing myself to be uncomfortable, pushing myself out of my, you know, own comfort zone, to, you know, to achieve satisfaction really, to just, you know, enjoy life.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: So, you know, I want for people that I work with, I want for everyone, for them to wake up in the morning and be like, I'm ready to go, you know?
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. I like how you are not afraid to get uncomfortable. It's not easy, right, to, to put yourself in positions to try something new or to learn something different or [00:11:00] to take feedback that is constructive. You're willing to recognize that? Yeah, sometimes I have to get uncomfortable in order to get to where I want to go.
And like you said, it's not gonna be this giant leap, right? You're, you're looking for small, consistent actions for you, you know, being persistent in doing that and being willing to take some risk of this is not the most comfortable thing in the world, that helps you keep moving forward, right? You're not
Loren: Yeah.
And,
Michael: falling behind things.
Loren: And, and I'll, I'll just something that you said just a little bit, right? You said, I'm not afraid to step out of my comfort zone. That's the exact opposite. I'm, I, I, I just went to, I just went to a mental health, mental and behavioral health networking lunch, right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And even every time, I've met some of these people before, but even every time I go into one of those places, or I'm about to go into one of those places, I can feel it, you know, like a shift that I [00:12:00] have to notice and adjust to,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: just in, you know, who I am and what I'm about. You know, I have to remind myself because the fear does come in
Michael: Right.
Loren: And it's, it's the ability to kind of like persist in the face of that,
Michael: Yes.
Loren: that you know, that has had me enjoy life.
Michael: Right, so, it's not the, the, you're okay with taking on the fear or you have the ability to just do that. It's your willingness, right? Like you're making a, a conscious choice to that, yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable, what can I do to make myself comfortable enough that I can do this, because I know it can take me a step ahead?
Would that be a more,
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: more accurate statement?
Loren: Yeah. And also like, you know, I, I, best athletes work with, you know other amazing athletes. I work with another amazing coach, and, you know, one of the things that she, you know, says to me is you have to [00:13:00] hire the fire, the wrong mental team and hire the right mental team, right? So, you know, anytime the doubt creeps in or, you know, whether or not I should be in this place, networking with these people, you know I, I, I have the awareness over time through practice, just like any other kind of thing that you need to practice at to, you know, when that happens, I'm like, okay, this is what's going on right now. You know, I'm, I'm just afraid, you know, but all of these people are the same as me, and I have something to offer their clients.
And, you know, it's just gonna be a conversation. You know, you can, you can get those, once you're kind of gain that awareness and get that signal, you know, input, you can automatically almost trigger the output that you want for, for the outcome that you're looking for, right?
Michael: Right, right. You're aligning yourself to the direction that
Loren: Yeah, totally.
Michael: you wanna go to. [00:14:00] So, yeah, let me ask you then, like when someone realizes that they are aligning themselves, they're, they're doing everything right, but there's still a disconnect maybe at home. You know, if you're a dad and you've, you feel like you're doing everything right, you're doing everything in your power, but something just feels off, you're, you're disconnected.
What do you encourage them to look at first?
Loren: In the mirror. That's usually where it comes from.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You know? I, I, I had an experience the, the other day where I felt slighted. You know, and it was a text message that I'd gotten from a colleague, and I felt like I instantly had what I, what I termed righteous indignation. I felt that they were not treating me as I deserved.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And the reaction, the, the awareness that I'm so grateful for today. Again, you know, this didn't happen overnight. It was through some hard work and some real, like [00:15:00] self-discovery,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: but the awareness that I had that this reaction was way oversized for what I was receiving,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: was a signal to me that there was something else going on underneath my reaction, right? So, having that awareness and being able to say, if there's something going on here, I'm not sure what it is right now. I don't need to figure it out right now, but this is something to be curious about and something to look at.
Michael: Right.
Loren: I was able to, you know, get to that. And that's what I help other people do, also, right?
Michael: Yeah. That's not a, an easy thing to do either, but like you said, it's, you know, it takes practice and persistence, right, to
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: get to that stage that you can recognize that.
Loren: Like any other skill.
Michael: Yep, absolutely. So, you, I know we've talked before and you've emphasized protecting energy, not just time, right? Can you explain that difference in a way that dads can relate to?
Loren: Yeah. Again, it depends on, it depends on the [00:16:00] dad and, and, and what their values are, right? Like, if their values are, they wanna spend more time with their kids, you know, they wanna make sure that they hit all of the, the ball games or the, I mean, on Long Island it was soccer. Everyone played soccer.
Michael: Sure.
Loren: You know, you have to you have to have the awareness of what's important to you and then adjust your actions and, and, and when you kind of move that compass point, you feel it. It's not some mysticism or anything, but you can feel your life just gets smoother and easier when you're acting in alignment with what's important to you.
Michael: Right, and I presume then you get more energy, right? You're protecting your.
Loren: Yeah. You know, like, so you wanna, I, I, I, if you're, if you wanna spend more time with your family, if you're apt to, you know, go to all the things, but you're grinding for someone else's value or benefit, [00:17:00] that's not gonna feel very good.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Right? So, protecting your energy, I, I work with people and help them identify healthy boundaries and then reinforce them. You know, a lot of people don't know how to say no.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Especially people that are kind of in the industry that I came from. In the technology industry, everyone's looking to be a hero. Everyone wants to be the guy that solved the thing and, you know, got, got to the launch.
And that's a really great feeling,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: but not at the sacrifice of the things that are also important to you for your life.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I, what a great way to, to frame that. You know, it's, work is essential, but so is life. So is being there for the ones that you, that you care about. And it's like, how do you, again, align your values so that you can get done what you need to get done at work, but also show up at the ball game, [00:18:00] and also take care of yourself, too, right?
Because at the end of the day, you're...
Loren: Yeah, if that's what's important to you, right? Like, again, if that's what's important to you. My, you know, there are people that I've known in my life, you know, my grandfather and, certainly, my great uncle, two brothers, one of them lived to work and one of them worked to live,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: right? So it depends on who you are as a person and what, and what drives you and moves you. That live to work was a perfectly good lifestyle for my grandfather. He got some results of that that maybe he didn't want or intend in terms of time with his kid, time with his family, time with his grandkids, all of that, but he was willing to make that trade off 'cause that's what was important to him.
Michael: Yeah, that makes sense. What are some common boundaries that people try to set that look good on paper for protecting your energy, but don't actually do so [00:19:00] in reality?
Loren: Hmm. I have to think about that one. And when you started formulating the question, I was thinking like, most of the time, like the boundaries that people, or that I train people to, to set are boundaries for themselves, right? Like I'm, I've set, you know, I'm a work in progress too, so I'm like, I've just recently set a new boundary over my bedtime,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: you know, and I've been about 75% successful this week, right? So, and I've seen the results of the success, and I've seen the results of, you know, the, the missteps. But what is something that looks good on paper? Man, I don't know. Like everything that I put on paper looks, looks good in practice.
Michael: That's fair.
Loren: I'm
Michael: Yeah,
Loren: not sure what...
Michael: That's fair. No, I mean, I'm just more curious of like, do people say like, I'm going to do [00:20:00] certain things that aren't realistic that...
Loren: Yeah, so that's a really good point. And, and, and, I'm fortunate with my consulting background, you know, one foot in the coaching, one foot in the consulting that, you know, I know some tools from business that can apply to life and coaching also. So, when you're looking to accomplish a task, you better make it a smart task.
Have you heard of a S.M.A.R.T. task?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: The acronym.
Loren: So, small, measurable, attainable, you know, like the pitfalls are like when you do grab something that's too big to try to take a bite out of. That's why I also emphasize, you know, like small wins over heroic maneuvers
Michael: Right.
Loren: are, are better every time.
Michael: Right.
Loren: You know, those add up.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: The heroic maneuvers could, you know, success or fail, that's a, you know, roll of the dice, so.
Michael: Right. Right. Has there been in your coaching work any sort [00:21:00] of boundary shift that tends to create outsize impact for your clients? Like, is there something they can do that better, protects and builds more energy for them? Is it just taking small steps?
Loren: The first word in my Silverman Coach tagline is pause. The pause, reboot, and grow. So, having the ability to, you know, just take a beat.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: What's happening? What's going on in my body right now? What's my brain doing? What, you know, what is, what is occurring around me that I am either affecting or at the effect of?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Again, it's a practice thing, right? You have to practice and build this skill, but having that ability because a lot of times, probably the majority of times, like our first thought or first reaction, you know, that's lizard brain defense. It's not,
Michael: Right.
Loren: you know, thoughtful and, and, you know, probably aligned with who you really are and what you're about.
Michael: Right. [00:22:00] Absolutely. So, I know a lot of dads, they feel pressure to push through exhaustion because slowing down kind of feels irresponsible, but you're saying, like, it's okay to pause. You need to pause, and you need to slow things, slow things down a bit so that you can make the right decisions and re- or react appropriately.
How do you reframe slowing down so it feels like a strength instead of a risk?
Loren: Yeah, I, I think once you recognize that the, the pushing through does more harm than, than good. Like, you get the thing done, but at what cost?
Michael: Right.
Loren: Right. So, you know, once you kind of stitch that together, the, the, you know, taking that pause you know, again, you, you, you feel it in your body. You feel it in your brain.
Just stop for a second. Even if you and I were to do it right now and stop and count, you know, count [00:23:00] to 10 in our heads,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: it would seem like a really long time to a lot of people listening and might
Michael: Right.
Loren: even seem like a really long time to us, but 10 seconds,
Michael: Right.
Loren: like, if you can give yourself just that much time,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you're, you're halfway there, right?
Michael: Right. Yeah. And that's such a, in the grand scheme of things, what's 10 seconds? It is, it's not a lot of time. In the moment, maybe it feels like that. I love that. So, how do you help high-responsibility people separate their identity from their, from their output without them losing their ambition or their, the pride in their work?
Loren: I'm gonna go back to, you know, aligning values
Michael: Sure.
Loren: with actions or aligning actions with values. You know, it's like, what is important to you? Helping someone kind of discover what's important to them and where they want to contribute their time and energy
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you know, is, is gonna, you know, get them further than if, you know, they just keep their head down and bash and bash and bash and are throwing, you know, 80, 90-hour work weeks in.[00:24:00]
Michael: Right. Right. No, that makes sense. So, you know, it's one thing to work 80, 90-hour work weeks, you know, bash your head in, as you said, but on the flip side of that, there's this idea of presence, right, of like not getting yourself lost in the work, but being there for who's important to you and what's important to you, right?
And finding those, again, finding those values and kind of how they align to your actions. What does intentional presence actually look like in day-to-day life? Not in theory, but more in practice.
Loren: Active listening. So, if you can slow your brain down from formulating a response to a question long enough to hear the question, process it, and then formulate the response, you know, that is one big thing, you know, that you can do to, to just even connect with a human in a [00:25:00] different way, right?
Michael: Right.
Loren: You know, it's like, getting, slow down to speed up
Michael: Yep.
Loren: is a weird, you know, kind of phrase, but, but it does make some sense when, when you because if I'm, if I'm answering your question that you haven't finished yet, it's very unlikely that I'm answering your question,
Michael: Yeah,
Loren: you know?
Michael: Absolutely.
Loren: I'm answering what I think your question is.
Michael: Right. I like how, you know, active listening is, it's easy to do and hard at the same time. It is hard to recognize that you're not doing it, but it's, you can actually implement it. It's not one of those things where you like have to go to school and study for it and, you know, read a bunch of books. You can just let people finish what they're saying, finish asking the question before you respond. Take a beat. Again, take that pause. [00:26:00] That's you, it's one of those things where you can just do it. It's not easy necessarily to recognize that you need to do it, but when you do it, it, it can make a difference.
Loren: Yeah, and I think it's like all of these other life skills that we're talking about, right? Like you may not necessarily understand this or, or, or act on this inherently, but it is something that you can practice. It is something that you can get better at.
Michael: Right. Absolutely. And I think that's, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to achieve, right? We're we're trying to get better and have better outcomes for ourselves and for those that we care about. And, again, it's like taking those small steps, right? Of
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: whether that's active listening or it's whatever goal you're trying to achieve, whatever the, the values are that you're, you're trying to align of just taking the first step to, to get there.[00:27:00]
And sometimes that means just taking a beat, right? Pausing, and then come back to it and be like, okay, what am I actually trying to do here? And how do I go about doing that? You know? And, you know, what have I experienced before versus kind of how I want things to go moving forward? And, so, you, you focus a lot on small, repeatable choices rather than big life overhauls, right?
Like you said, it's, it's hard to do big life changes at once and it can drain your energy real fast.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: What's a, a choice that a dad can make today that would meaningfully improve how he shows up at home tonight?
Loren: Yeah, I mean certainly you know, it's a common phrase like leave work at work, right? Don't bring work home. You know, having those boundaries of, I work between these hours and these hours. And I'm not saying that you need to be, you know, a hundred percent stickler with your rules,
Michael: Right.
Loren: but if that is your basic [00:28:00] kind of alignment, 'cause it's family time and you wanna spend family time, like just leave your laptop at, at the office. You know, leave your papers at the office. You don't need to bring, or if you work from home, set your work hours
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: and then close your office down, you know?
Michael: Right, right. And you know, almost a physical boundary in that case, right, of, like, right, step away from your office and you know, the.
Loren: Yeah, it becomes very easy to kind of, kind of, you know, especially with a lot of people working virtually, you know, and certainly since the pandemic and we were all kind of like used to being inside for long periods of time anyway. You know, having those boundaries, those boundaries and spaces is sometimes important also.
Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. It, it, like you said, it's not always easy and there will be that urgent email or something that comes in at 10 o'clock at night, and yes, you might have to give yourself grace sometimes to be like, okay, [00:29:00] I am going to address this now, but I'm going to be forthright with what I'm doing and not make it habitual.
And, you know, if I've got kids around or my partner's around and be like, explain like this is what I need to do. I need to step away for five minutes and answer this email and I'll come right back to what we're doing. It's a lot more understandable than just kind of like looking at your phone while you're
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Spending time with somebody else and just doing the thing and they're like, well, you're not even paying attention to me, right, and it's, or whatever you're trying to accomplish. Like, you might not even be with anybody. You might just be like, I want to, I have this personal goal I want to achieve. Then you get distracted by that, that work email on your phone. It's like, yeah, sometimes you have to respond to it. That's okay. You can do that, but be intentional about it, right?
Loren: You might have your Legos that you need to put together.
Michael: Yep. Right.
Loren: You know, you know, if it's important, you'll take five minutes to do the thing and then get back to your Legos.
Michael: Right. Exactly. You might wanna finish a drawing that you're doing or finish a book. I mean, there, there's a million things, right? [00:30:00] Or you might be exercising and you want, you know, you need to take a break to respond to this message or take this phone call, but know that you're gonna come back to it and the next time it comes up, hopefully, it's something that you can be like, you know what, I will get to that during my work time, right? It shouldn't be every time, but, and it's okay. Sometimes those things happen, and you have to take that call or you have to respond to that message because you do have a responsibility for work, for the work that you've chosen. But that doesn't mean it has to overtake your life, I guess is kinda what I'm taking from this,
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: this conversation.
So, and I guess that leads to my next question, which is like, how can dads in particular start checking in with themselves before burnout shows up rather than waiting until they're already depleted? Right, because it's, it's so easy to feel like I gotta do this other thing, I gotta do this other thing.
And then, you know, all of a sudden you've become consumed with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish at [00:31:00] work or wherever it may be.
Loren: Yeah, it can be, it can be insidious, right? It can be a slow burn and then, you know, all of a sudden. So, you know, again, I would, I would practice awareness. Practice the pause. Make sure that your actions are aligned with your values.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: If you don't understand what your values are, or I need help, you know, figuring those values out, then that's your first step.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Because, you know, my, something that's important to me may not be important to you and you're not gonna have enjoyment doing it.
Michael: Right.
Loren: But I will, so I'll do it.
Michael: Right, exactly.
Loren: You know?
Michael: At the end of the day, you only have so much time, right? And, so, if you do put all your time into one thing and you burn yourself out on that, you don't have time now to go back and do the things that you neglected because you were burning yourself out, right? And now you've put yourself into a position [00:32:00] where you have less energy because you've burned yourself out, and so, going forward, it's like, well, how do you regain that energy and solve that time? So it's, you know, recognizing that, okay, are my values aligned here? And, you know, is this what's most interesting to me in the moment? And can I, what can I do to kind of refocus myself so I don't burn out?
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: I love that.
So when work demands are legitimately high, like you just got something going, you got a big project going on, there's deadlines you have to meet. What does good enough presence look like without falling into all or nothing thinking or tons of guilt?
Loren: Yeah, I mean there's definitely gonna be those times where, where your attention is gonna be pulled in a direction that you'd rather it not be pulled in, but it needs to because of a responsibility or because of an emergency, or because of, you know, [00:33:00] whatever, whatever reason. You know, you have to have some grace yourself like you were just talking about. You know, we're not perfect and who wants to be perfect anyway? Like, we have, you know, we have our differences and quirks and, and all of those things. That's what makes us human. That's what makes us individual.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You know, just, just if that, if that happens and you start, you know, if that starts to like bleed into, if you have an emergency, you have an emergency.
Michael: Right.
Loren: And if you had a commitment that you needed to, to do, and you weren't able to do that because of something else, then you just have to own that. Go to the person that you, you know, broke your commitment with. And reform a new commitment.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Just be upfront about it and, and, you know, it's not a big deal.
If it happens often, then that's another conversation that you need to have,
Michael: Right.
Loren: right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: But, if, you know, if it's a one-off every now and again, like give yourself some grace. [00:34:00] You're a human being.
Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. I like your idea of individualism, right? Of, we have all these responsibilities, right, at work, at home, and, and elsewhere, but we can't lose sight of who we are ourselves because, again, what brings us energy is unique to each of us, right? For you, it might be building Legos. For me, it might be reading a book. For somebody else, it might be lifting weights for, you know, everybody gets their, their energy from the sources that work for them, and you can't lose sight of that.
It's so easy to lose sight of it because you're so focused on, you wanna be successful at work, you want to be active and present at home, but you can't remember what, what brings you energy or you can't forget what brings you energy and what you know, what makes you you.
Loren: Yeah, and as human beings, we have, just being in the animal kingdom, we have a very keen instinct,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: and you know, we can [00:35:00] feel very deeply in a lot of different ways, right? If you can get in touch with that and you can really, you know, only, I think get in touch with that by slowing down a little bit.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: You know, taking that pause, but that gives you a lot of power.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, alright, so one more question before we get to the speed round.
Loren: Okay.
Michael: If a dad is listening and feels like meaningful work and meaningful family life are in conflict right now, what's the first sort of internal shift you would encourage him to make?
Loren: I, I probably sound like a broken record. You gotta pause.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You gotta take a beat. You gotta stop.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Right? Pick your head up and, and take two minutes, and write something down. Get whatever's in your head out onto paper. You know, set a two minute timer.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: You'd be surprised at how quickly and how long the two minutes seems, you know, at the same time.
Michael: Yeah, that's a great idea [00:36:00] of slowing, it's not just slowing yourself down, but like you're also becoming active at the same time by writing down those feelings, right? So, it's like whatever it is, there, whatever disconnect you're feeling right now, it's hard to sort out until you spill it out, right? Like, and to, to
Loren: Yeah, I like that.
Michael: Do that, you just have to like write it down or talk it out.
Like, it, whatever mode or method works best for you, but it's getting those ideas out of your head and physically somewhere else, so that you can clear some space to actually look at it and be like, okay, what's misaligned here? Like, why are work and family life out of balance right now, or why are my interests and my obligations so out of line, out of alignment right now and how do I, what's the first step I can take to fix it, right? You're not [00:37:00] gonna have all the answers as soon as you write it all down, I'm sure. Right, but it's the step that you take, right? It's that small step that you were talking about earlier. And in order to even take that first step, really your first step, like you said, is to pause, take a beat, right?
Second step, write it down. Well, now you're already two steps ahead of where you were when everything was in conflict, and now you can start to clear your, clear a path in front of you to kind of figure out what's going on and how do I adjust?
Loren: Yeah. And, you know, it, it's, it's a little bit of chicken and egg, right? What comes first, the pause or the awareness?
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: Right, and I think it, you, you just have to play with it, right? You have to be like, yeah, just have to play with that, you know, 'cause you might have, be aware about something and, and that will lead you to a pause or the pausing itself will make you aware of, you know, a thing that, that, that you're in conflict with.
Michael: Right. That's a great point because I think I probably take for granted, like yeah, I will recognize it when I recognize it and that'll be it, but sometimes that's [00:38:00] not what comes first. Sometimes, it's like, I know there's something going on. Maybe I just need to stop for a second and just give myself a beat and then think, okay, well what is it that is conflicted?
And then...
Loren: And you can make that a practice, too. I, every morning, I wake up and, and you know, after I take care of essentials, I, before I actually get to work for the day, I'll sit down and write for two minutes.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: It's whatever's on my mind. Just to get it out.
Michael: Absolutely. I, I see, you know, a lot of people, I talk to, a lot of the, the high performers, whether it's journaling or just writing whatever, just having a regular habit of putting pen to paper seems to, it has an effect. I don't even know how to describe the effect, but there's an effect there of like, whether it's clearing your mind or getting your creative juices flowing, something is going on there that then allows you to kind of move forward with, with your day.
Loren: Yeah, like you're firing up, firing up your, [00:39:00] you know, your power bank.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a good point. It's a good analogy. All right. Time for the speed round. You ready for this? It's
Loren: Yeah, let's try it.
Michael: a lot of nothing about everything and everything about nothing. I don't know. It has nothing to do with anything. It's really what it comes down to. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?
Loren: The first kids show theme song? God, it's, it's, I it's in there. It's, it's in my brain right now. And pass and get it out. I don't know what it is.
Michael: All right.
Loren: I have something in there.
Michael: Yeah. All right. We'll come back to that. What, what was your very first job?
Loren: I scooped ice cream at Baskin-Robbins when I was 13 years old.
Michael: Nice. That must have been a fun job for a 13-year-old.
Loren: I ate a lot of ice cream.
Michael: Fair enough.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Fair enough. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-size T-Rex or a T-Rex-size toddler?
Loren: Yeah, a toddler-sized [00:40:00] T-Rex.
Michael: Why is that?
Loren: For sure, because, I mean, you could just shove that thing into, into a, into a cage, you know, like a, a T-Rex-sized toddler? Man. Yeah, I've, I've, I've seen, I've seen babies fall over. You don't wanna be, you know, in, in the, in the path of that. It happened so suddenly.
Michael: Fair point, fair point. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you'd sing if you needed to?
Loren: Yeah, so that's probably just gonna be, you know, anything that's low and slow that I can do fairly monotone because I, I don't really have a, a good sense of tone. So, probably like, uh, what is it called? House of the Rising Sun. And that's a good, like low and slow monotone,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: or like anything by The Doors.
Michael: Classics. All, all classics. Love that. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?
Loren: I carried a lot of weird things. I don't know how weird it is, but a D20.[00:41:00]
Michael: Okay, yeah. A 20-sided dice? A 20-sided die?
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Okay.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Very cool. Alright, let's go back to the first question. If you got an answer, cool. If not, totally understand. What's the first kid show theme song that, that comes to mind for you now?
Loren: It's, it's not, it's not hitting me. It's in my brain. I can't formulate it, but it is, it is something joyful and colorful
Michael: Sure.
Loren: Happy.
Michael: I love that. Great answer. All right, Loren, before we wrap up, I wanna give you space to share more about the work you're doing now. For dads who kind of heard themselves in this conversation, are realizing they need a steadier, more intentional way to live and work, where should they start? Where can they find you?
Loren: Yeah, I mean, they can find me at SilvermanCoach.com. Or silverman.coach, if they want to talk to me directly, they can schedule right on my calendar. I do a weekly Facebook Live, 10 minute story time at night. I get dressed up in a ren faire costume and go to Lantern Fall Commons and do a little [00:42:00] nighttime coaching.
Every Thursday, I have a a weekly mastermind where I get together with some folks and just, you know, talk about some challenges that we have and, and things like that. And I do trainings twice a month. So, they can find all that stuff on my website and at Loren.Silverman on the socials.
Michael: Awesome, and we'll put links to all that in the show notes. Loren, I really am grateful for this conversation. I appreciate you coming on, and you help connect a lot of dots, I think, between not just work and presence, but also self-worth, right, and what's important and what's valuable to you. And I think you've done it in a way that is real and practical.
I think for a lot of dads listening, myself included, it's like I can take some of these ideas of just like pausing. Maybe writing something down of and just implement it now, right? I don't have to wait. So, I appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for joining me today. And [00:43:00] finally, before you go, if you're dad listening to this and you find yourself in between navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday. It's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now. If this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: And the reaction, the, the awareness that I'm so grateful for today.
Again, you know, this didn't happen overnight. It was through some hard work and some real like self discovery.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: But the awareness that I had that this reaction was way oversized for what I was receiving
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: was a signal to me that there was something else going on underneath my reaction.
Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we [00:01:00] talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm excited to be joined by Loren Silverman. Loren spent nearly 20 years leading digital transformation work for major brands, but along the way he realized something important.
The technology was never the most meaningful part. It was the people behind it. After experiencing burnout, emotional disconnection, and the long-term impact of early survival patterns, Loren chose to step back, reassess, and rebuild. That work led him to create Silverman Coach and Life Reboot: Nerd Edition where he helps thoughtful, high responsibility people set better boundaries, and turn insight into real change without overwhelm.
Loren's work is grounded, practical, and deeply human, and I'm really excited to chat with you today, Loren. So, welcome to the show. Thank you for being here.
Loren: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Michael: My pleasure. So, one of the things that really stood out to me in your story is how early experiences shaped how you showed up as an adult, especially around work and responsibility and self-worth.
When you look back on your career in tech and [00:02:00] digital transformation, what was the first sign that something felt off for you personally?
Loren: You know, probably when it became more about the, the, it became more about the title, the salary the, it became more about the work than about life,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you know?
Michael: Right. The sort of the depersonalization of it, right? Like it was, you were, the thought was like, okay, what do I have to do next as opposed to what is this doing for me? Would that be a fair assumption?
Loren: Yeah, totally. It was constantly, you know, grinding and, and just giving over your life to the mission of the company.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And, at first that seemed like a, hey, you know, like a, this is a larger than myself, this is a bigger thing than me. I can get behind that, right?
Michael: Right.
Loren: But not at the sake of your own identity. And,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: and [00:03:00] that's where it crosses over into, you know, the danger zone.
Michael: Right, right. That makes sense. So you've talked about tying self-worth to productivity for you at a very young age. How did that belief quietly kinda show up in your work before you were really aware of it?
Loren: Yeah. You know, I, I just remember being a kid and you know, not having a summer job and, and being, you know, hammered by my dad about that and, and that definitely was the signal to me that the thing that you like, just doing something is more important necessarily than like what you do.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: So, you know, I, I graduated from college with a with a degree in speech and a focus on technical theater and was a stage manager right out of college, but it wasn't fulfilling, you know? So, I have changed kind of careers or direction [00:04:00] a few times in my life. I'm appreciative of my flexibility in being able to do that. But, each, you know, each step has been kind of like a, a, a decision point and a, a, like a growth jumping-off point.
Michael: Sure, sure. So, many dads listening are, they're responsible, they're capable, and they do what they believes expected of them, right? And I, I think, you know, from what you're saying that was, you know, when you graduated college, you expected to, you know, go into stage management and things of that nature, I suppose. From your perspective, where does that sense of obligation start to become an actual problem?
Loren: You know, again, I think it, I think it has to do with how grounded you are in your own identity and where your values are. So, a lot of the work I do these days is about aligning your actions to your values. And some people need to even figure out [00:05:00] what their values are to begin with.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: So, that's one of the first exercises I do with people when they, when they, when I work with them, is, let's take a look at your values.
Let's figure out what's important to you because then when you're acting on those things that are important to you, life is just so much smoother and easier and, and you're more free, right? You don't have the, the friction that comes with doing something that, that is against your value system. And that's one of the things that I found in, in technology when I was working for these large companies.
I really didn't have a say in who I worked with, and, you know, a lot of these corporations are not aligned with my values. And so, you know, grinding and doing the work and trying to like accomplish the thing having become more important than, you know, my value system against identity, right? Giving over my identity to this other entity
Michael: Right.
Loren: For, you know, for the sake of some [00:06:00] other person's mission. So.
Michael: Yeah, I like how you, you don't conflate action with values, right? They're, they're two separate things. It's very easy to fall into that routine of like, okay, this is what's expected of me. This is what I need to do every day. This is what my job calls for. But you were able to recognize that, like, just doing that and not doing it for the right purpose wasn't meaningful for you.
And it was like, okay, my values are not aligned with my actions on a regular basis right now and...
Loren: Yeah, we're kind of taught, or at least I was anyway, that, you know, you're me, like the, the measure of success is in not how you serve. It's in like what you do. It's in the things that you accumulate. It's in the, my measure of success these days is the, the effect of the people that I'm able to impact.
Michael: Yeah. I love that. That, yeah.
Loren: That [00:07:00] gets me up in the morning.
Michael: Right.
Loren: It gets me up in the morning more than, you know, doing the thing for the company that I really don't care about or who is not aligned with my value system.
Michael: Right, but at the same time, people have to provide, right, for themselves. They have to earn a living. They have to be able to put food on the table, and get a roof over their heads. And, but you're, what you're saying is like, there is, you don't have to compromise your values necessarily to do that. It might not always be easy to align your actions with your values, but you can do it. And if that is meaningful to you, then it's something to, to attempt to achieve. How do you help people recognize when they're sort of unintentionally trading just this idea of being a provider with being present? How, like if they're struggling to balance those two.
Loren: Yeah, so awareness is key. I ask people a lot [00:08:00] of questions. That's mainly what I do. I ask questions, and I listen, and I, and I, you know, I'm trained to find the things that, that stand out, right? So, asking a lot of questions of people and, and, you know, really kind of, yeah, someone, what's important to you?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And you listen for the answer.
Michael: Right.
Loren: And you could kind of tell if they're BSing or they're shallow, or there's something that they're really moved about and they're driven about, you know? You have a different kind of, even right now while I'm talking to you, I feel it in my body. I feel like the energy increasing, you're responding, you know, there's like a synergy because this is fun.
This is what, and I don't think you have to compromise your value systems to earn a living, right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: What's important to you? So, if money is important to you and that's your main driver, then that's the feedback and the input that you're gonna get.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Whether or not that makes you feel good or valuable as a person, you know, that's, that's
Michael: Right.
Loren: each individual has their own value [00:09:00] system and what's important to them.
Michael: Right.
Loren: I've, I found out through my journey of theater to, was in the wholesale jewelry industry for 12 years to technology that, you know, it's the, the people are what was important to me.
It wasn't actually the launching of the website or the getting the thing done. It was watching the other people around me grow and me having had an influence in that.
Michael: And I imagine those as you transition between careers, the, those things didn't happen overnight, right? It was, it's a process, right? And you take it one step at a time. It's like, okay, I'm starting to realize that my values don't align with my actions. How do I start to change that? And for some people, like they can't change it overnight because you still need to earn that paycheck, but maybe you start doing something in your free time. Maybe you put in an hour on the weekend or an hour after work to start to get to that place that you want to [00:10:00] get to.
Loren: Yeah, a hundred percent. I teach small actions, towards a goal
Michael: Yep.
Loren: are way more important than, you know, kind of like big jumps or grand, you know, heroic maneuvers.
Michael: Right.
Loren: It's that consistent and persistent. You know, that's been a lot of, part of my success is just the persistence in allowing myself to be uncomfortable, pushing myself out of my, you know, own comfort zone, to, you know, to achieve satisfaction really, to just, you know, enjoy life.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: So, you know, I want for people that I work with, I want for everyone, for them to wake up in the morning and be like, I'm ready to go, you know?
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. No, I love that. I like how you are not afraid to get uncomfortable. It's not easy, right, to, to put yourself in positions to try something new or to learn something different or [00:11:00] to take feedback that is constructive. You're willing to recognize that? Yeah, sometimes I have to get uncomfortable in order to get to where I want to go.
And like you said, it's not gonna be this giant leap, right? You're, you're looking for small, consistent actions for you, you know, being persistent in doing that and being willing to take some risk of this is not the most comfortable thing in the world, that helps you keep moving forward, right? You're not
Loren: Yeah.
And,
Michael: falling behind things.
Loren: And, and I'll, I'll just something that you said just a little bit, right? You said, I'm not afraid to step out of my comfort zone. That's the exact opposite. I'm, I, I, I just went to, I just went to a mental health, mental and behavioral health networking lunch, right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And even every time, I've met some of these people before, but even every time I go into one of those places, or I'm about to go into one of those places, I can feel it, you know, like a shift that I [00:12:00] have to notice and adjust to,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: just in, you know, who I am and what I'm about. You know, I have to remind myself because the fear does come in
Michael: Right.
Loren: And it's, it's the ability to kind of like persist in the face of that,
Michael: Yes.
Loren: that you know, that has had me enjoy life.
Michael: Right, so, it's not the, the, you're okay with taking on the fear or you have the ability to just do that. It's your willingness, right? Like you're making a, a conscious choice to that, yeah, it's gonna be uncomfortable, what can I do to make myself comfortable enough that I can do this, because I know it can take me a step ahead?
Would that be a more,
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: more accurate statement?
Loren: Yeah. And also like, you know, I, I, best athletes work with, you know other amazing athletes. I work with another amazing coach, and, you know, one of the things that she, you know, says to me is you have to [00:13:00] hire the fire, the wrong mental team and hire the right mental team, right? So, you know, anytime the doubt creeps in or, you know, whether or not I should be in this place, networking with these people, you know I, I, I have the awareness over time through practice, just like any other kind of thing that you need to practice at to, you know, when that happens, I'm like, okay, this is what's going on right now. You know, I'm, I'm just afraid, you know, but all of these people are the same as me, and I have something to offer their clients.
And, you know, it's just gonna be a conversation. You know, you can, you can get those, once you're kind of gain that awareness and get that signal, you know, input, you can automatically almost trigger the output that you want for, for the outcome that you're looking for, right?
Michael: Right, right. You're aligning yourself to the direction that
Loren: Yeah, totally.
Michael: you wanna go to. [00:14:00] So, yeah, let me ask you then, like when someone realizes that they are aligning themselves, they're, they're doing everything right, but there's still a disconnect maybe at home. You know, if you're a dad and you've, you feel like you're doing everything right, you're doing everything in your power, but something just feels off, you're, you're disconnected.
What do you encourage them to look at first?
Loren: In the mirror. That's usually where it comes from.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You know? I, I, I had an experience the, the other day where I felt slighted. You know, and it was a text message that I'd gotten from a colleague, and I felt like I instantly had what I, what I termed righteous indignation. I felt that they were not treating me as I deserved.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: And the reaction, the, the awareness that I'm so grateful for today. Again, you know, this didn't happen overnight. It was through some hard work and some real, like [00:15:00] self-discovery,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: but the awareness that I had that this reaction was way oversized for what I was receiving,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: was a signal to me that there was something else going on underneath my reaction, right? So, having that awareness and being able to say, if there's something going on here, I'm not sure what it is right now. I don't need to figure it out right now, but this is something to be curious about and something to look at.
Michael: Right.
Loren: I was able to, you know, get to that. And that's what I help other people do, also, right?
Michael: Yeah. That's not a, an easy thing to do either, but like you said, it's, you know, it takes practice and persistence, right, to
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: get to that stage that you can recognize that.
Loren: Like any other skill.
Michael: Yep, absolutely. So, you, I know we've talked before and you've emphasized protecting energy, not just time, right? Can you explain that difference in a way that dads can relate to?
Loren: Yeah. Again, it depends on, it depends on the [00:16:00] dad and, and, and what their values are, right? Like, if their values are, they wanna spend more time with their kids, you know, they wanna make sure that they hit all of the, the ball games or the, I mean, on Long Island it was soccer. Everyone played soccer.
Michael: Sure.
Loren: You know, you have to you have to have the awareness of what's important to you and then adjust your actions and, and, and when you kind of move that compass point, you feel it. It's not some mysticism or anything, but you can feel your life just gets smoother and easier when you're acting in alignment with what's important to you.
Michael: Right, and I presume then you get more energy, right? You're protecting your.
Loren: Yeah. You know, like, so you wanna, I, I, I, if you're, if you wanna spend more time with your family, if you're apt to, you know, go to all the things, but you're grinding for someone else's value or benefit, [00:17:00] that's not gonna feel very good.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Right? So, protecting your energy, I, I work with people and help them identify healthy boundaries and then reinforce them. You know, a lot of people don't know how to say no.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Especially people that are kind of in the industry that I came from. In the technology industry, everyone's looking to be a hero. Everyone wants to be the guy that solved the thing and, you know, got, got to the launch.
And that's a really great feeling,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: but not at the sacrifice of the things that are also important to you for your life.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I, what a great way to, to frame that. You know, it's, work is essential, but so is life. So is being there for the ones that you, that you care about. And it's like, how do you, again, align your values so that you can get done what you need to get done at work, but also show up at the ball game, [00:18:00] and also take care of yourself, too, right?
Because at the end of the day, you're...
Loren: Yeah, if that's what's important to you, right? Like, again, if that's what's important to you. My, you know, there are people that I've known in my life, you know, my grandfather and, certainly, my great uncle, two brothers, one of them lived to work and one of them worked to live,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: right? So it depends on who you are as a person and what, and what drives you and moves you. That live to work was a perfectly good lifestyle for my grandfather. He got some results of that that maybe he didn't want or intend in terms of time with his kid, time with his family, time with his grandkids, all of that, but he was willing to make that trade off 'cause that's what was important to him.
Michael: Yeah, that makes sense. What are some common boundaries that people try to set that look good on paper for protecting your energy, but don't actually do so [00:19:00] in reality?
Loren: Hmm. I have to think about that one. And when you started formulating the question, I was thinking like, most of the time, like the boundaries that people, or that I train people to, to set are boundaries for themselves, right? Like I'm, I've set, you know, I'm a work in progress too, so I'm like, I've just recently set a new boundary over my bedtime,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: you know, and I've been about 75% successful this week, right? So, and I've seen the results of the success, and I've seen the results of, you know, the, the missteps. But what is something that looks good on paper? Man, I don't know. Like everything that I put on paper looks, looks good in practice.
Michael: That's fair.
Loren: I'm
Michael: Yeah,
Loren: not sure what...
Michael: That's fair. No, I mean, I'm just more curious of like, do people say like, I'm going to do [00:20:00] certain things that aren't realistic that...
Loren: Yeah, so that's a really good point. And, and, and, I'm fortunate with my consulting background, you know, one foot in the coaching, one foot in the consulting that, you know, I know some tools from business that can apply to life and coaching also. So, when you're looking to accomplish a task, you better make it a smart task.
Have you heard of a S.M.A.R.T. task?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: The acronym.
Loren: So, small, measurable, attainable, you know, like the pitfalls are like when you do grab something that's too big to try to take a bite out of. That's why I also emphasize, you know, like small wins over heroic maneuvers
Michael: Right.
Loren: are, are better every time.
Michael: Right.
Loren: You know, those add up.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: The heroic maneuvers could, you know, success or fail, that's a, you know, roll of the dice, so.
Michael: Right. Right. Has there been in your coaching work any sort [00:21:00] of boundary shift that tends to create outsize impact for your clients? Like, is there something they can do that better, protects and builds more energy for them? Is it just taking small steps?
Loren: The first word in my Silverman Coach tagline is pause. The pause, reboot, and grow. So, having the ability to, you know, just take a beat.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: What's happening? What's going on in my body right now? What's my brain doing? What, you know, what is, what is occurring around me that I am either affecting or at the effect of?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Again, it's a practice thing, right? You have to practice and build this skill, but having that ability because a lot of times, probably the majority of times, like our first thought or first reaction, you know, that's lizard brain defense. It's not,
Michael: Right.
Loren: you know, thoughtful and, and, you know, probably aligned with who you really are and what you're about.
Michael: Right. [00:22:00] Absolutely. So, I know a lot of dads, they feel pressure to push through exhaustion because slowing down kind of feels irresponsible, but you're saying, like, it's okay to pause. You need to pause, and you need to slow things, slow things down a bit so that you can make the right decisions and re- or react appropriately.
How do you reframe slowing down so it feels like a strength instead of a risk?
Loren: Yeah, I, I think once you recognize that the, the pushing through does more harm than, than good. Like, you get the thing done, but at what cost?
Michael: Right.
Loren: Right. So, you know, once you kind of stitch that together, the, the, you know, taking that pause you know, again, you, you, you feel it in your body. You feel it in your brain.
Just stop for a second. Even if you and I were to do it right now and stop and count, you know, count [00:23:00] to 10 in our heads,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: it would seem like a really long time to a lot of people listening and might
Michael: Right.
Loren: even seem like a really long time to us, but 10 seconds,
Michael: Right.
Loren: like, if you can give yourself just that much time,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you're, you're halfway there, right?
Michael: Right. Yeah. And that's such a, in the grand scheme of things, what's 10 seconds? It is, it's not a lot of time. In the moment, maybe it feels like that. I love that. So, how do you help high-responsibility people separate their identity from their, from their output without them losing their ambition or their, the pride in their work?
Loren: I'm gonna go back to, you know, aligning values
Michael: Sure.
Loren: with actions or aligning actions with values. You know, it's like, what is important to you? Helping someone kind of discover what's important to them and where they want to contribute their time and energy
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: you know, is, is gonna, you know, get them further than if, you know, they just keep their head down and bash and bash and bash and are throwing, you know, 80, 90-hour work weeks in.[00:24:00]
Michael: Right. Right. No, that makes sense. So, you know, it's one thing to work 80, 90-hour work weeks, you know, bash your head in, as you said, but on the flip side of that, there's this idea of presence, right, of like not getting yourself lost in the work, but being there for who's important to you and what's important to you, right?
And finding those, again, finding those values and kind of how they align to your actions. What does intentional presence actually look like in day-to-day life? Not in theory, but more in practice.
Loren: Active listening. So, if you can slow your brain down from formulating a response to a question long enough to hear the question, process it, and then formulate the response, you know, that is one big thing, you know, that you can do to, to just even connect with a human in a [00:25:00] different way, right?
Michael: Right.
Loren: You know, it's like, getting, slow down to speed up
Michael: Yep.
Loren: is a weird, you know, kind of phrase, but, but it does make some sense when, when you because if I'm, if I'm answering your question that you haven't finished yet, it's very unlikely that I'm answering your question,
Michael: Yeah,
Loren: you know?
Michael: Absolutely.
Loren: I'm answering what I think your question is.
Michael: Right. I like how, you know, active listening is, it's easy to do and hard at the same time. It is hard to recognize that you're not doing it, but it's, you can actually implement it. It's not one of those things where you like have to go to school and study for it and, you know, read a bunch of books. You can just let people finish what they're saying, finish asking the question before you respond. Take a beat. Again, take that pause. [00:26:00] That's you, it's one of those things where you can just do it. It's not easy necessarily to recognize that you need to do it, but when you do it, it, it can make a difference.
Loren: Yeah, and I think it's like all of these other life skills that we're talking about, right? Like you may not necessarily understand this or, or, or act on this inherently, but it is something that you can practice. It is something that you can get better at.
Michael: Right. Absolutely. And I think that's, you know, at the end of the day, that's what we're trying to achieve, right? We're we're trying to get better and have better outcomes for ourselves and for those that we care about. And, again, it's like taking those small steps, right? Of
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: whether that's active listening or it's whatever goal you're trying to achieve, whatever the, the values are that you're, you're trying to align of just taking the first step to, to get there.[00:27:00]
And sometimes that means just taking a beat, right? Pausing, and then come back to it and be like, okay, what am I actually trying to do here? And how do I go about doing that? You know? And, you know, what have I experienced before versus kind of how I want things to go moving forward? And, so, you, you focus a lot on small, repeatable choices rather than big life overhauls, right?
Like you said, it's, it's hard to do big life changes at once and it can drain your energy real fast.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: What's a, a choice that a dad can make today that would meaningfully improve how he shows up at home tonight?
Loren: Yeah, I mean certainly you know, it's a common phrase like leave work at work, right? Don't bring work home. You know, having those boundaries of, I work between these hours and these hours. And I'm not saying that you need to be, you know, a hundred percent stickler with your rules,
Michael: Right.
Loren: but if that is your basic [00:28:00] kind of alignment, 'cause it's family time and you wanna spend family time, like just leave your laptop at, at the office. You know, leave your papers at the office. You don't need to bring, or if you work from home, set your work hours
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: and then close your office down, you know?
Michael: Right, right. And you know, almost a physical boundary in that case, right, of, like, right, step away from your office and you know, the.
Loren: Yeah, it becomes very easy to kind of, kind of, you know, especially with a lot of people working virtually, you know, and certainly since the pandemic and we were all kind of like used to being inside for long periods of time anyway. You know, having those boundaries, those boundaries and spaces is sometimes important also.
Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Absolutely. It, it, like you said, it's not always easy and there will be that urgent email or something that comes in at 10 o'clock at night, and yes, you might have to give yourself grace sometimes to be like, okay, [00:29:00] I am going to address this now, but I'm going to be forthright with what I'm doing and not make it habitual.
And, you know, if I've got kids around or my partner's around and be like, explain like this is what I need to do. I need to step away for five minutes and answer this email and I'll come right back to what we're doing. It's a lot more understandable than just kind of like looking at your phone while you're
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Spending time with somebody else and just doing the thing and they're like, well, you're not even paying attention to me, right, and it's, or whatever you're trying to accomplish. Like, you might not even be with anybody. You might just be like, I want to, I have this personal goal I want to achieve. Then you get distracted by that, that work email on your phone. It's like, yeah, sometimes you have to respond to it. That's okay. You can do that, but be intentional about it, right?
Loren: You might have your Legos that you need to put together.
Michael: Yep. Right.
Loren: You know, you know, if it's important, you'll take five minutes to do the thing and then get back to your Legos.
Michael: Right. Exactly. You might wanna finish a drawing that you're doing or finish a book. I mean, there, there's a million things, right? [00:30:00] Or you might be exercising and you want, you know, you need to take a break to respond to this message or take this phone call, but know that you're gonna come back to it and the next time it comes up, hopefully, it's something that you can be like, you know what, I will get to that during my work time, right? It shouldn't be every time, but, and it's okay. Sometimes those things happen, and you have to take that call or you have to respond to that message because you do have a responsibility for work, for the work that you've chosen. But that doesn't mean it has to overtake your life, I guess is kinda what I'm taking from this,
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: this conversation.
So, and I guess that leads to my next question, which is like, how can dads in particular start checking in with themselves before burnout shows up rather than waiting until they're already depleted? Right, because it's, it's so easy to feel like I gotta do this other thing, I gotta do this other thing.
And then, you know, all of a sudden you've become consumed with whatever it is you're trying to accomplish at [00:31:00] work or wherever it may be.
Loren: Yeah, it can be, it can be insidious, right? It can be a slow burn and then, you know, all of a sudden. So, you know, again, I would, I would practice awareness. Practice the pause. Make sure that your actions are aligned with your values.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: If you don't understand what your values are, or I need help, you know, figuring those values out, then that's your first step.
Michael: Right.
Loren: Because, you know, my, something that's important to me may not be important to you and you're not gonna have enjoyment doing it.
Michael: Right.
Loren: But I will, so I'll do it.
Michael: Right, exactly.
Loren: You know?
Michael: At the end of the day, you only have so much time, right? And, so, if you do put all your time into one thing and you burn yourself out on that, you don't have time now to go back and do the things that you neglected because you were burning yourself out, right? And now you've put yourself into a position [00:32:00] where you have less energy because you've burned yourself out, and so, going forward, it's like, well, how do you regain that energy and solve that time? So it's, you know, recognizing that, okay, are my values aligned here? And, you know, is this what's most interesting to me in the moment? And can I, what can I do to kind of refocus myself so I don't burn out?
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: I love that.
So when work demands are legitimately high, like you just got something going, you got a big project going on, there's deadlines you have to meet. What does good enough presence look like without falling into all or nothing thinking or tons of guilt?
Loren: Yeah, I mean there's definitely gonna be those times where, where your attention is gonna be pulled in a direction that you'd rather it not be pulled in, but it needs to because of a responsibility or because of an emergency, or because of, you know, [00:33:00] whatever, whatever reason. You know, you have to have some grace yourself like you were just talking about. You know, we're not perfect and who wants to be perfect anyway? Like, we have, you know, we have our differences and quirks and, and all of those things. That's what makes us human. That's what makes us individual.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You know, just, just if that, if that happens and you start, you know, if that starts to like bleed into, if you have an emergency, you have an emergency.
Michael: Right.
Loren: And if you had a commitment that you needed to, to do, and you weren't able to do that because of something else, then you just have to own that. Go to the person that you, you know, broke your commitment with. And reform a new commitment.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Just be upfront about it and, and, you know, it's not a big deal.
If it happens often, then that's another conversation that you need to have,
Michael: Right.
Loren: right?
Michael: Yep.
Loren: But, if, you know, if it's a one-off every now and again, like give yourself some grace. [00:34:00] You're a human being.
Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. I like your idea of individualism, right? Of, we have all these responsibilities, right, at work, at home, and, and elsewhere, but we can't lose sight of who we are ourselves because, again, what brings us energy is unique to each of us, right? For you, it might be building Legos. For me, it might be reading a book. For somebody else, it might be lifting weights for, you know, everybody gets their, their energy from the sources that work for them, and you can't lose sight of that.
It's so easy to lose sight of it because you're so focused on, you wanna be successful at work, you want to be active and present at home, but you can't remember what, what brings you energy or you can't forget what brings you energy and what you know, what makes you you.
Loren: Yeah, and as human beings, we have, just being in the animal kingdom, we have a very keen instinct,
Michael: Yep.
Loren: and you know, we can [00:35:00] feel very deeply in a lot of different ways, right? If you can get in touch with that and you can really, you know, only, I think get in touch with that by slowing down a little bit.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: You know, taking that pause, but that gives you a lot of power.
Michael: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So, alright, so one more question before we get to the speed round.
Loren: Okay.
Michael: If a dad is listening and feels like meaningful work and meaningful family life are in conflict right now, what's the first sort of internal shift you would encourage him to make?
Loren: I, I probably sound like a broken record. You gotta pause.
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: You gotta take a beat. You gotta stop.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: Right? Pick your head up and, and take two minutes, and write something down. Get whatever's in your head out onto paper. You know, set a two minute timer.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: You'd be surprised at how quickly and how long the two minutes seems, you know, at the same time.
Michael: Yeah, that's a great idea [00:36:00] of slowing, it's not just slowing yourself down, but like you're also becoming active at the same time by writing down those feelings, right? So, it's like whatever it is, there, whatever disconnect you're feeling right now, it's hard to sort out until you spill it out, right? Like, and to, to
Loren: Yeah, I like that.
Michael: Do that, you just have to like write it down or talk it out.
Like, it, whatever mode or method works best for you, but it's getting those ideas out of your head and physically somewhere else, so that you can clear some space to actually look at it and be like, okay, what's misaligned here? Like, why are work and family life out of balance right now, or why are my interests and my obligations so out of line, out of alignment right now and how do I, what's the first step I can take to fix it, right? You're not [00:37:00] gonna have all the answers as soon as you write it all down, I'm sure. Right, but it's the step that you take, right? It's that small step that you were talking about earlier. And in order to even take that first step, really your first step, like you said, is to pause, take a beat, right?
Second step, write it down. Well, now you're already two steps ahead of where you were when everything was in conflict, and now you can start to clear your, clear a path in front of you to kind of figure out what's going on and how do I adjust?
Loren: Yeah. And, you know, it, it's, it's a little bit of chicken and egg, right? What comes first, the pause or the awareness?
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: Right, and I think it, you, you just have to play with it, right? You have to be like, yeah, just have to play with that, you know, 'cause you might have, be aware about something and, and that will lead you to a pause or the pausing itself will make you aware of, you know, a thing that, that, that you're in conflict with.
Michael: Right. That's a great point because I think I probably take for granted, like yeah, I will recognize it when I recognize it and that'll be it, but sometimes that's [00:38:00] not what comes first. Sometimes, it's like, I know there's something going on. Maybe I just need to stop for a second and just give myself a beat and then think, okay, well what is it that is conflicted?
And then...
Loren: And you can make that a practice, too. I, every morning, I wake up and, and you know, after I take care of essentials, I, before I actually get to work for the day, I'll sit down and write for two minutes.
Michael: Yep.
Loren: It's whatever's on my mind. Just to get it out.
Michael: Absolutely. I, I see, you know, a lot of people, I talk to, a lot of the, the high performers, whether it's journaling or just writing whatever, just having a regular habit of putting pen to paper seems to, it has an effect. I don't even know how to describe the effect, but there's an effect there of like, whether it's clearing your mind or getting your creative juices flowing, something is going on there that then allows you to kind of move forward with, with your day.
Loren: Yeah, like you're firing up, firing up your, [00:39:00] you know, your power bank.
Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that's, that's a good point. It's a good analogy. All right. Time for the speed round. You ready for this? It's
Loren: Yeah, let's try it.
Michael: a lot of nothing about everything and everything about nothing. I don't know. It has nothing to do with anything. It's really what it comes down to. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?
Loren: The first kids show theme song? God, it's, it's, I it's in there. It's, it's in my brain right now. And pass and get it out. I don't know what it is.
Michael: All right.
Loren: I have something in there.
Michael: Yeah. All right. We'll come back to that. What, what was your very first job?
Loren: I scooped ice cream at Baskin-Robbins when I was 13 years old.
Michael: Nice. That must have been a fun job for a 13-year-old.
Loren: I ate a lot of ice cream.
Michael: Fair enough.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Fair enough. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-size T-Rex or a T-Rex-size toddler?
Loren: Yeah, a toddler-sized [00:40:00] T-Rex.
Michael: Why is that?
Loren: For sure, because, I mean, you could just shove that thing into, into a, into a cage, you know, like a, a T-Rex-sized toddler? Man. Yeah, I've, I've, I've seen, I've seen babies fall over. You don't wanna be, you know, in, in the, in the path of that. It happened so suddenly.
Michael: Fair point, fair point. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you'd sing if you needed to?
Loren: Yeah, so that's probably just gonna be, you know, anything that's low and slow that I can do fairly monotone because I, I don't really have a, a good sense of tone. So, probably like, uh, what is it called? House of the Rising Sun. And that's a good, like low and slow monotone,
Michael: Yeah.
Loren: or like anything by The Doors.
Michael: Classics. All, all classics. Love that. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?
Loren: I carried a lot of weird things. I don't know how weird it is, but a D20.[00:41:00]
Michael: Okay, yeah. A 20-sided dice? A 20-sided die?
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Okay.
Loren: Yeah.
Michael: Very cool. Alright, let's go back to the first question. If you got an answer, cool. If not, totally understand. What's the first kid show theme song that, that comes to mind for you now?
Loren: It's, it's not, it's not hitting me. It's in my brain. I can't formulate it, but it is, it is something joyful and colorful
Michael: Sure.
Loren: Happy.
Michael: I love that. Great answer. All right, Loren, before we wrap up, I wanna give you space to share more about the work you're doing now. For dads who kind of heard themselves in this conversation, are realizing they need a steadier, more intentional way to live and work, where should they start? Where can they find you?
Loren: Yeah, I mean, they can find me at SilvermanCoach.com. Or silverman.coach, if they want to talk to me directly, they can schedule right on my calendar. I do a weekly Facebook Live, 10 minute story time at night. I get dressed up in a ren faire costume and go to Lantern Fall Commons and do a little [00:42:00] nighttime coaching.
Every Thursday, I have a a weekly mastermind where I get together with some folks and just, you know, talk about some challenges that we have and, and things like that. And I do trainings twice a month. So, they can find all that stuff on my website and at Loren.Silverman on the socials.
Michael: Awesome, and we'll put links to all that in the show notes. Loren, I really am grateful for this conversation. I appreciate you coming on, and you help connect a lot of dots, I think, between not just work and presence, but also self-worth, right, and what's important and what's valuable to you. And I think you've done it in a way that is real and practical.
I think for a lot of dads listening, myself included, it's like I can take some of these ideas of just like pausing. Maybe writing something down of and just implement it now, right? I don't have to wait. So, I appreciate you coming on the show. Thanks for joining me today. And [00:43:00] finally, before you go, if you're dad listening to this and you find yourself in between navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday. It's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now. If this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.