Merry Korn on Turning Professional Loss into Purpose-Driven Work

Gap to Gig Podcast with Merry Korn
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Merry: [00:00:00] It seems endless, but there will be a day that comes that you don't have any more field trips.

Michael: Right.

Merry: There's gonna be a day that comes that your kids are gonna be grown, and they're gonna go to college. So, just cherish the gift.

Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host Michael Jacobs, and today I'm joined by Merry Korn. Merry is a serial entrepreneur, speaker, and author, and she's lived this story many people fear, but few ever talk about honestly. Two months into what she believed would be her final job, Merry was let go. She was a single parent with two teenagers and a lot on the line. That moment could have ended the story.

Instead, it became the beginning. Merry went on to found and scale a for-profit social enterprise and employed more than 1300 people across 30 states. Prioritizing jobs for those facing the greatest barriers to work. She's [00:01:00] also the author of Fired to Inspired, a deeply personal account of turning professional loss into purpose-driven work.

What I appreciate most about Merry's story is how clearly it reflects a tension a lot of dads quietly carry. The pull between responsibility and purpose, between doing what's expected and doing what actually feels right. Merry, I'm excited to chat with you today. Welcome to the show. I'm really glad you're here.

Merry: I am honored and glad to be here as well.

Michael: Thank you. I appreciate that. So before we get into what you built and how you built it, I wanna go back to that moment where everything shifted for you. When you were told you were being let go, what was the first story you told yourself about what that meant for you as a parent and a provider?

Merry: I, I was so overwhelmed with being devastated, paralyzed, and at a complete ground zero loss. It, it was like the ground beneath me gave.

Michael: I can only imagine, you, because you were carrying a lot at that moment. You had two kids, you had college [00:02:00] ahead. There was real financial pressure. How did that fear show up for you then in those early days? How did it influence the decisions you ended up making?

Merry: There weren't any decisions to make except, oh my God, how am I gonna survive? What do I cut back on? And I just minimized the food that I bought. I stopped buying anything that wasn't essential. I prayed a lot, and I never really prayed before, but it helped, and I immediately got on the phone and just let everyone I knew know that I didn't have a job. And, and just started having conversations with people. I also applied for every single job I could find, and the, the job I was [00:03:00] leaving, I came with my background was as a vice president of marketing. And when you're at that kind of level of position, finding another one that level and with the same salary doesn't come along very quickly. And I knew it was a long haul and I was having almost no, minimal response to my resume.

Michael: So, you said you were, you immediately went into survival mode, right, which there was the financial aspect of it, right? You cut back on your expenses as, as much as you possibly could. I imagine also there was sort of an emotional survival going on, right? You were still the mother of two children. You still had to be there for them.

You know, not necessarily, not just financially, but just emotionally, mentally, physically there to guide them as they, they went. That must have been a very [00:04:00] challenging experience.

Merry: Totally, totally. Between regretting everything I tried to do to keep the job and beating myself up about why couldn't I contort myself into the environment I was in enough to succeed and the absolute terrifying fear of the future because I, I looked at the worst possible scenario, which is living, being homeless, and living under a bridge with my children. So, it was vacillating of beating myself up and terror about the future. It was a dark, dark, dark space.

Michael: I bet, I bet. And you call it survival, right? And, and it was a dark time, but at the same time, you also mentioned that you were reaching out to everybody you knew in your network, right? You were still being proactive, right?

Merry: Yeah, because staying in bed was not an option. I was still a role model for [00:05:00] my kids, and I knew that however I showed up during those periods would leave an imprint on my kids, and they knew I didn't have a job. And the worst thing they could witness is a mother who couldn't keep it together for their sake.

Michael: Right.

Merry: So I had to be strong for them. And any parent listening to this understands, understands that surrender was not an option. Surrender was not an option.

Michael: Absolutely. That's so important to recall. Especially, you know, it's difficult in the darkest of times, right, to not give up. It, sometimes it's just easy to default to being like, okay, well this is what I'm resigned to, right? But it, it takes a concerted effort to be like, okay, I still have to get outta bed.

I still have to do what I can to get me to the next place. To get us to the next place, right? Because, because [00:06:00] it's, no, it's not a singular issue. It's not just for you, right? You have kids, you also are taking care of at the same time. So like, you're doing this for them as much as you're doing it for you.

And so it's, it's so important that you didn't just like, you didn't give into the ease of giving up, right? It was, I'm going to do what I can. And so I'm curious, like, so you didn't give up and you actually in the end, like you did the opposite, right? Like you started something and you not just thrived, but you like thrived completely.

Like you built this large organization, super successful. How'd you get from survival to 1300 employees?

Merry: So what, I, by the way, in my book, I have three le-, three legs to the book is number one, overcome paralyzing fear. Number two, finding life purpose and number three, [00:07:00] using the holy grail of informational interviews. In this section of overcoming fear, I talk about a whole slew of techniques when you're paralyzed with fear and one of them is praying, and I don't proselytize, this is not religious, but even if you're not sure if God exists, if you believe there is a divine hand or a divine source, and you pray, sometimes that faith that there's a bigger force out there that might guide you is comforting. So, in answer to your question, a week after I was fired, I was walking through an alley near my home, and I prayed and I said, okay, God, I need your help here. I am at a complete and utter total loss of what to do with my life. I promise, so I made a bargain and I said, if you tell me what to do, I promise I will dedicate [00:08:00] my life to helping people who are as lost as I am find their way. And I, I heard, I heard a voice and it only said two words. And I, Michael, I'm just afraid some of your listeners might tune out because it sounds too woo woo, but the voice said two words, and the words were medical associations. And I heard them and it was kind of like a whis-, it sounded like a whisper. I went home, and I immediately got on the phone. I immediately made a list of all the medical associations in the state of Ohio because I'm based in Columbus, and I made cold calls to association directors, CEOs, and I crafted a, a very simple script, and the script was, "hi, I'm looking at transitioning 20 years of sales and marketing experience into your field and oh [00:09:00] sales, marketing and healthcare experience. And I just wanna schedule 20 minutes of your time to talk about how I could transition into your field." And I found it's the 80/20 rule: if I left a hundred messages, 20 CEOs responded, and that was my starting point because I started to hold these informational interviews, and about six weeks after I met with one of the CEOs, I got this call and the call was, look, I don't have a job for you, but if you want to raise sponsorships, I'll pay you percentage of the sponsorship money you raise, and, I knew, I did the math very quickly. I would never support my family on just sponsorship sales. So, that's when I officially launched Pearl Interactive Network. And the other thing I discovered is most able-bodied people in their right mind not [00:10:00] want this work. So, I hired people with severe disabilities to do the sponsorship sales.

Michael: Hmm.

Merry: And that was the seed of what eventually became a 1300-employee company across 30 states.

Michael: Wow, that's amazing. You started literally from phone calls, right? Like...

Merry: Yes, from nothing.

Michael: Right. You didn't need to go out and raise a ton of money. You didn't need to have all the connections in the world. You just literally sat down, made a list of people to contact and started reaching out.

Merry: Yes. And I, I, I didn't even have time to raise money because that would've required me to think through a business plan, which I wasn't clear on when I started the business. I mean, time was running out. I fortunately had a five-month severance, and I had unemployment, and I knew there was a ticking clock where money would run out.

Michael: Right.[00:11:00]

Merry: So, it's amazing how when you're desperate and you don't have solid ground underneath you, the courageous wild things you could do and might do

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: when you nowhere, nothing else to do but just run forward.

Michael: Right. Yeah, it what I imagine that there was a lot of, I know you mentioned like it was frightening, it was scary when you were let go. You didn't know what you're gonna do next, but even once you started this, right, you started making those phone calls and then you started hiring people. There was still another fear there, I imagine, right?

Merry: Totally. The fear last until I sold the business.

Michael: Yeah. That, that fear number goes away. It changes. It evolves, I imagine. I imagine the fear of managing 1300 people is different than the fear of losing your job, but

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: fear is fear.

Merry: The fear of am I gonna make payroll and, and that's the other thing, if I leave your listeners with anything. Okay, you feel the fear.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: Just keep moving. [00:12:00] Just keep doing it anyway. So what you feel fear? Put the blinders on and just do it.

Michael: Just keep going. Yep. Love that. That's so important. It's so difficult to, to remember sometimes, right? When you're in the thick of it, and, you know, things are not going your way and you don't know what's next, it's easy to get paralyzed in the moment, right?

Merry: Totally.

Michael: And sometimes you just need a reminder of like, yeah, just keep doing it.

Keep going forward. Take, keep taking those next steps and you will, you'll get there. So, I, I'm curious, when you started rebuilding into, from your previous job to now creating your own company, what mattered most to you early on? Was it clarity of purpose or is it just momentum?

Merry: Okay. To be very crude, money.

Michael: Fair enough.

Merry: I needed money to pay the utilities. Set aside money for college tuition. But what's so interesting is [00:13:00] I struggled a big part of my life to find meaning and connection and engagement with my work, and even though I was single, I signed up for a career coaching service that was invaluable, especially after I got fired because they taught me a whole lot about, number one, how to find your life work and how to find your life passion, because I struggled with that big part of my adult life.

Michael: Sure.

Merry: And they gave me a whole series of assessments, and basically, at the end of the day, the assessments showed that I had strong leadership capability and entrepreneurship, and I have an absolute passion for social mission. So, here I am fired, ground zero, but I knew that what made my heart sing was doing work that enabled me to hire the most [00:14:00] unemployable populations. You mentioned that in your introduction to me, but the most unemployable is I hired, hired people with severe disabilities, disabled veterans, and people living in the most impoverished parts of this country. So, as I moved forward and a big game changer came when out of the blue I was asked if I wanted an $80,000 grant. But, to back up, by having done the work on how to do informational interviews and to find out what made my heart sing, when I was fired, I, I had a vision of what would make, would thrill me, and I also knew the art of an informational interview. And for those of your listeners wondering what is an informational interview, it's just a name for having structured conversations with people doing work that fascinates [00:15:00] you, intrigues you, and it's scheduling calls not saying you want a job, but for the purpose of understanding how do you transition your skills into work they may or, or their industry might have a need for.

Michael: In your story and you know, the, the experience that you've had, right. A conversation right.

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, I'm asking questions, but we're having a conversation to get to know what your experiences were like, what, you know, how you went from point A to point B, and you know, what would you do again? What wouldn't you do? Those sorts of things. So in a sense, this is similar to an informational interview.

Merry: And you nailed it. You, you said that you articulated it much better than I could have. That was beautifully done.

Michael: Thank you. I, I don't know if I articulated any better than you, but I, this is clearly an [00:16:00] example of how you can, right, just have an,

Merry: Yes.

Michael: a discussion, a conversation. Really it comes down, an informational interview is a conversation at the end of the day, right?

Merry: It's just a conversation, and the goal for your listeners is establish a relationship with someone. Really get to know the industry youth or the, or the person doing work associated with something that you're attracted to. And ask for referrals because the big mistake people make in informational interviews is you should never say, do you have a job, 'cause if they say no, the conversation ends, but you can say, oh, that's so interesting. I, I'm interested. How do I pursue this further? Or who else should I talk to?

Michael: Yep. Absolutely. Who else should I talk to, I think, is one of the most underutilized tools that people can use. [00:17:00] It's such an easy question to ask. It's, so few people think to ask it. And it's not one of those questions where you're asking much of the other party. You know, typically the advice is give more than you take, right?

But asking for who else you should talk to, you are essentially, you're giving the, the interviewee the opportunity to show off their network and make them feel like they are helping. And at the end.

Merry: And they are.

Michael: And they are, right? And the worst that happens is they say, I can't think of anybody right now, right? The best is you've gotta talk to this person and they make an introduction, right? Maybe they make two introductions, and all of a sudden you, you continue to build your network. And I'm starting to sense a theme here with you of no matter the situation, the key is to communicate and to build your [00:18:00] network, right? Like, every time, when things got hard, when things got successful, either way, you were continuing to build your network.

You're always talking to people, right? And having these informational interviews, having these conversations, so that you can learn more, so you can continue to build your career and your, achieve your goals, right? The same time you're also giving back you, whether or not we realize that in the moment, right, and having these conversations, you're introducing people to your way of working maybe to, you're introducing them to other people or to other opportunities. So it is a two-way street. But what I'm noticing here is that when things were bad, your immediate reaction was to build your network. When things got good, your immediate reaction is to continue to build your network.

Now, who you are networking with may have changed, right?

Merry: Yes.

Michael: So, in the beginning, you were trying to network with the CEOs of these healthcare associations. As you're starting to grow your business, maybe you're interviewing with people that had connections to people that you could hire or people that were looking [00:19:00] for your type of business, right?

So, but the, the constant through line has been people and network, right? And building your network. And it doesn't matter if you're dad that's stuck in a job you don't like, or you just lost your job, or you haven't had a job for a while, or you're in a job and you're just kind of just like, okay, it's paying the bills. I'm fine with it. The only way you're gonna get to that next phase of your life where you want to have that balance between more meaningful work and time at home with your family, or time to pursue your interests is to continue to build your network, right? Getting people to introduce you to others or introduce you to opportunities.

Merry: Totally, totally, 100% right. You nailed it. Informational interviews could be used to find a job, but once I started Pearl Interactive full force, I did maybe four to six informational interviews with prospective [00:20:00] clients, and I always used it as I'm not here to sell to you. I'm just trying to understand how does my offering support the type of work you do.

Michael: Yep.

Merry: So, you could do it to find a job, launch a business, or grow a business. And that's the beauty because nobody will shut you down sooner than when you say, hey, I have something I wanna sell to you.

Michael: Right.

Merry: Nobody wants to be, there's nobody you want to sell you something unless you're very clear on, I want blue round swivel chairs in my living room. But it's a turnoff if you approach people of, hey, I'm selling this. I'm head of business development and blah, blah, blah. But instead, you know, I'm thinking of launching a service that does catastrophic care management for people with chronic conditions. And I just wanna meet with you to understand, is this a product that could lend itself to your industry? [00:21:00] So, you could, informational, I call it the holy grail because without informational interviews, I don't know where I would've been.

Michael: Right. You know, you use these informational interviews not to sell, although sometimes that is a natural byproduct of it, right?

Merry: It is. Of course.

Michael: But it's to validate what you're doing, right? It's to validate the, the concept. And it could be you're validating that that's the field you want to get into. It could be that you're validating a new product that you wanna take to market, or a new service you're trying to take to market. It could just be validating what direction you wanna take in life.

Merry: Yes. And you just said something that is pivotal. I mentioned there are three, it's a three-legged stool. Number one, you have to get over the fear because if you don't get over the fear, nothing is gonna happen and very few people, even if they're wealthy, [00:22:00] can mentally afford to just hide under the covers. It's not an option. No is not an option. You gotta get out of bed, and you gotta move forward. Okay, so once you get out of bed, it helps to figure out what is it you want to do because I was so lost, I wasn't sure. And, fortunately, through the aid of books, and through the aid of assessments, I kind of knew, but before you begin the informational interviews, you, you kind of sort of have to have some idea of what kind of work do you wanna do.

Michael: Right.

Merry: So it helps, and you're right. The, the informational interview will help you figure out just by these conversations, you learn enough about an industry. You might realize just by these informational interviews that it thrills you and tantalizes you, which is good or it's a turn off and boring and that you'd hate it.[00:23:00]

Michael: Right. Absolutely. So, you know, you'd mentioned earlier, you know, in your previous job before you started your business when you were VP of marketing like you didn't necessarily contort yourself to that position or to that company in that moment. Then you've built a business that was for like, that really met your needs in terms of what you, your purpose, right? And,

Merry: Yes.

Michael: you know, I think a lot of dads sometimes we feel lost, like we've lost touch with who we are outside of work. Like we've let the job contort us into what it needs from us as opposed to what we need from it. You,

Merry: Yes.

Michael: Right? And you figured out a way to go from maybe not great satisfaction to something that you are clearly super passionate about. What does that sort of internal change actually look like in practice for you? Like how did that [00:24:00] evolve for you?

Merry: It didn't happen overnight 'cause remember I was terrified

Michael: Right.

Merry: and just counting the dollars of am I gonna make, am I gonna keep the utility bill on? Am I gonna keep the utilities on? But when I started hiring, I, there was a big game changer when I think at the time I had 20 employees and we used to do employee team calls once a month. And on Zoom, I saw 20 faces. 20, 30 faces of people with severe disabilities living all over the country. The average person on my call hadn't worked in seven years because people with disabilities have the lowest, at best, they, depending on the di-, disability, the average employment rate is between 15 and [00:25:00] 40% depending on the disability.

Michael: Wow.

Merry: And when I saw their faces, and I realized I kind of cracked the code of how do you find, how do you hire people who are blind or paraplegic or have a host of chronic conditions, it was joyous. I realized, wow, I'm doing something profound and important

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: and meaningful, and that feeling didn't go away till I sold the business and, and then in addition to hiring people with challenges home-based, and through government contracts, I got a contract with over 800, an 800-seat call center, and I remember pulling into, every time I pulled into the parking lot, and I saw all these cars there, I thought, this is the journey I was meant to be on. This is, I am right where I am because I heeded my inner voice, [00:26:00] and I heeded what my mission in this lifetime was meant to do.

Michael: And was there a particular pull that you felt that you, this was your particular mission, like you wanted to bring in or provide opportunities for people with disabilities that were struggling to find work?

Merry: So, there were two major influences in my life story. One of them is my mother, who was a Holocaust survivor.

Both my parents were, but my mother, in particular, came to this after having been in the camps, Bergen-Belsen, from the age of 13 through 18. She came to the United States not speaking the language with two children as a single mother. And somehow that amazing woman got two kids through graduate school

Michael: Wow.

Merry: [00:27:00] and, became, started buying real estate. So, she was a huge inspiration, but as an immigrant, not speaking the language, I had a particular sensitivity to populations that had barriers.

And the other movie that had a huge impact was Schindler's List

Michael: Of course.

Merry: Because Schindler was an industrialist that learned that by creating jobs, you save lives. I didn't save lives, but I gave people lost opportunities, and I kind of pushed them to the front of the bus in terms of giving them priority or hiring.

Michael: That's amazing. Amazing. You took, you went from a very difficult challenge, to say the least, right, to, again, not just thriving, but you are, you built a community of thrivers, right? Like you provided opportunities to people that were struggling to [00:28:00] find those opportunities and you, so you not just, you didn't just solve your situation, but you provided hope to, to more people, which is just really, it's something that, you know, I think, when I talk to dads it's like, okay, I'm not happy in my job, or I wish I had more time to do these things. I just don't know what the next step is. I don't know what to do next, but we think, we tend to think small, like what is the next step? And that's, you know, you can only do, take one step at a time, but you can have those small steps, can have very large impacts, and

Merry: Yes.

Michael: Your story is so inspirational because you went from being unemployed, not sure how you were going to pay your utility bills and how you're gonna put food on the table to employing 1300 people, but also employing people that were, that didn't have the same opportunities, right? So, you were now [00:29:00] providing hope and opportunity for others. Like your impact was much bigger than yourself, right? It was much bigger than just your family. You were impacting other families and other people. And sometimes we lose sight of that. It, it's so easy to be so busy in your work and so busy at home with your kids and raising a family and being a partner to your spouse or to whomever, that we forget that not only can we do good work, but we can do good work that impacts others in a positive light.

And you do it, you did it to probably an extreme extent compared to others. Like your impact was, not everybody can build a company with 1300 people. Not everybody can hire so many people with disabilities, but you did it in a way that was selfless, but all, at the same time, you, you were able to take care of yourself, right?

You were able to start paying the bills. You didn't have that, that same concern, but your, your impact was beyond just your bill payments. Your impact was all these other people having these opportunities that maybe they didn't have before, right? And putting them in situations where [00:30:00] they too could thrive, right?

So you took a very big negative and turned it into a super positive impact on a lot of people. And I think that's just so inspiring. And I think that shows, you know, my audience, the people I, I talk to on a regular basis, they're dads, right? And, we think, okay, well what kind of impact can I have as a dad?

Well, I can impact how my kids turn out, right? I can demonstrate for them the actions I would hope that they take as they grow older. Maybe I can become a volunteer coach, I can be a baseball coach or a, or whatever coach, and, you know, maybe I can impact on 10 kids and make them a little bit happier during the day, but your impact can be much greater with the right intent, right, and I think what I'm pulling from your story is like find what, what your purpose is, and your impact can be magnified or it can grow exponentially because you are [00:31:00] doing something you are passionate about, you're interested in, and then you can pull others into that same sphere to give them those same, similar opportunities.

Merry: There are a, a couple of points that I'd like to make.

Michael: Please.

Merry: What you just said. We all have a mission. We all, I believe we all have a mission, and we all have a purpose. And if your listeners are struggling to, well, what am I meant to be? What am I meant to do? And they're not sure, there are books, the-, there are career coaches, which I cannot sing their praises enough. And the other thing is, is if you have people listening that want to be an entrepreneur, success is not a solo sport.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: It's a team sport. And when you do work that positively impacts, it's amazing the quality people you attract. I wish I could tell you I did this all on my own, but I had this phenomenal team [00:32:00] that so loved and supported the mission that, you know, over the last five years before I sold the business, they were so good that I could, if I wanted to, I could leave on a vacation for a week or two weeks and not miss a beat because they loved and cared for the business like it was their own.

Michael: Yep.

Merry: So, there's a leadership element, and the other thing I noticed is we were in a highly, the work we did was contact-center work, which is a highly competitive industry from a workforce perspective, but people came to work for us because they loved the social mission. I'm giving hiring priority to disabled vets, people with disabilities, and people living in impoverished areas. That if you do work that's meant to uplift the world, it's amazing how the quality of the people you attract that love your mission.

Michael: Yeah, I bet. I bet that's, it is, it becomes a [00:33:00] selling point even if it's not intentional, right?

Merry: Yeah, yeah.

Michael: So, I'm curious, like I want to turn this, the direction of this conversation just a little bit to you as a, as a parent, and you grew this business from nothing to 1300 employees, and, you know, I think at one stretch you had mentioned to me earlier that you had grown from 20 employees to 440 in like 90 days or something.

So, as the business grew, how did you protect your values and your time with the demands at home?

Merry: Okay, so I just want everyone to know I was not an overnight success. I didn't start the business and 98 days later grow to 400.

Michael: Sure.

Merry: The big contract of my dreams happened seven years after I launched, and it was through government contracts. But, the other thing is, during that time period, you have to have a time where you [00:34:00] shut things down because you have to be present for your priority, which is your family.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: And you can just, you have to have faith. If you're meant to build a company with 13, 1400 employees, if you're meant for success, you have to trust. If you're doing the work you're meant to, it will happen.

Michael: Yep.

Merry: And by working day and night, not being there for your family, it's not necessary. You can be successful, and you could be present for the people you love the most.

Michael: I love that. What did being present look like during that time when things were so busy?

Merry: But being present would sit at the table and do artwork with my kids. Being present means go to all the kid festivals 'cause my kids loved festivals. It would be doing their homework no matter how tired you are.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: Going to the events where you get to do, you get to do day trips, field trips

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: [00:35:00] because for your listeners, it may be in the midst of child rearing. It seems endless, but there will be a day that comes that you don't have anymore field trips.

Michael: Right.

Merry: There's gonna be a day that comes at, your kids are gonna be grown, and they're gonna go to college. So, just cherish the gift. I mean, you get to go to a field trip.

Michael: Yep.

Merry: You get to make their lunch.

Michael: Right.

Merry: You get to do their homework with them.

Michael: Right. Right. So, you, you just made the time, right? Like you, you had, you drew a line and said, these are things that are important, and I am going to make them happen, and...

Merry: So, you, if you have listeners that jobs, have jobs that don't let them be present, you can change that.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: Because if your value is my kids come first, then you have to work around finding a job that you know, before you take it, will let you be there for your children.

Michael: Yeah, absolutely. So on the flip side of that, were there [00:36:00] boundaries that you had to learn between balancing work and home?

Merry: The biggest learn is dinner, making dinner a priority because that's a chance to catch up on your days. I mean, we used to have a ritual of let's go around the table and let's talk about the best part of our day. So, I guess it, it was just instilling the importance of rituals, and we used to have a standard Friday night dinner

Michael: Nice. Very nice. Yeah.

Merry: of coming together.

Michael: Right. Yeah. I think that's, yeah. You're not gonna be able to have every meal with your family, right? And that's okay, right? But you have those times where it's, that's the boundary. Like that is what I'm protecting. I'm protecting that Friday night dinner. I'm protecting that, that field trip that comes up every spring or whatever it may be, right? Like those are the things that allow you to be present with your kid, not just for your kid, but with them, right, and doing something with them and having those conversations and just being [00:37:00] there so that if there is something they do wanna bring to you, if they do have something that they are worried about or stressed about or something that's bothering them, they can, or something they wanna celebrate that they know that, okay, Friday night dinner, that's my time.

Like, I can bring that up and we can celebrate that big win I had at school. Or, you know, I could talk about that, you know, that complication in that relationship with my best friend that I don't really know how to navigate, right, of like, this is what's upsetting me these days. That's such a great boundary. Such an easy one to set right of a meal. Everyone's gotta eat, let's try and eat together.

Merry: Yes.

Michael: We do the same thing in my house, like dinner is, we try to protect that time as much as we can. We know it doesn't always work. Like my daughter might have a play practice or my son might have some event he's gotta be at, and we can't all be around the dinner table, but we try to do that as frequently and as consistently as possible, right, because like we all have to eat anyways, right, and the best conversations are when [00:38:00] we're just relaxed and we're eating and you never know when something is, something important comes of it, but also the memory we get created, right, of that funny thing that happened while we were conversing, right?

Merry: I guess the word that comes to mind is you've gotta compartmentalize. If your listeners are starting a business, God, that's so stressful, but you gotta shut it. You have to put blinders on of forget work and be present.

Michael: Right, because your work will still be there after that, after that dinner, after that conversation, right? It's not going anywhere.

Merry: But your kids will go somewhere.

Michael: Yes.

Merry: That your kids will grow up, and they will leave.

Michael: Yep. Yeah. Great point, great point. So, can you recommend a step for dads that they could take to start kind of aligning their work with who they really are and still being present for their parents? Like, what is one small thing they could start to do, maybe something that's helped you in the past [00:39:00] that you think could, could help other dads?

Merry: Just have standard rituals that, okay, so you're a leader of your home, and you might be a leader in your business, but as a leader you have to ask your children, involve your children and input and routines that you could engage in, that they would really enjoy and appreciate, and it doesn't have to even cost any money.

Michael: Yeah.

Merry: Is what if every Saturday night we did popcorn and watched a movie that we all like, engage them.

Michael: Yep. Or like you said, you, you know, you did an art project with your kids, right? Something that,

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: That everybody's interested in, that everybody can take part in, right, and it doesn't have to be anything extravagant, right? Like it could be pen and paper and let's all draw, you know, have a common theme that you all draw or something, and it's just like, it's together and it's time [00:40:00] where, you know, kids can ask questions. You can ask questions, right, as the parents to get to know your kids on a different level, right? That's not part of the, the busy day that typically goes on, right? It kind of just slows things down a little bit.

Merry: So, by the way, both my children turned out to be art-, artists and businesswoman.

Michael: Excellent.

Merry: And I just went to visit my daughter who's a sculptor in London, and the, the thing she wanted to do with me the most is sit at the table and paint,

Michael: Yeah. That's amazing.

Merry: just like we did when she was a kid.

Michael: Yep. Yeah, you never know where the, the, the best memories are going to be born, right? You never know where that nostalgia is going to, to stick with 'em, that the things they're gonna wanna do later in life and they wanna do it with you

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: later in life, right? Because, yes, we take for granted that the kid, when the kids are home, when they're young, like, okay, we know they're gonna be here every day, right?

But at some point, like you said, they, [00:41:00] they grow up, they move outta the house, they go live their own lives and,

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: hopefully, you know, we remain a part of those lives, and they wanna do things with you, right? Like, to me, that is a big win as a father is that when my kids are outta the house, that they still want to spend time.

I mean, 'cause like to me that is the ultimate goal is that we have a family that somebody that people that we want to be around as long as we possibly can, right?

Merry: Absolutely, but, but what you're telling me is your primary value on this earth is to be a great father. And for your listeners who are struggling, if you use that value of my priority is my family as you're guiding light, that will help you on your quest to find out what is the work you're meant to do.

Michael: Right. That's great, great advice. I love that. It kind of leads me to my next question and maybe even answers it, but if [00:42:00] there's a dad out there that feels kind of stuck between being present at home, providing some stability, but also kind of honoring his own sense of purpose, what do they need to think about or consider before they take, figure out what their next steps are gonna be?

Merry: Do we, in your question, do we assume that the father knows his purpose or is he?

Michael: Not necessarily.

Merry: No matter what the purpose is, there's time for your child. You just have to structure whatever it is next around your top priority of how do you compartmentalize it to be present for the people most precious in your life.

Michael: Love that. That's great. Alright, I kind of want to flip the script now. This is such a great conversation, but I wanna have a little bit more, let's call it fun. It's the speed round. It's got nothing to do with anything.

Merry: Okay.

Michael: Really nothing at all, but I think it's just fun.

It's five quick questions. [00:43:00]

Merry: Okay.

Michael: So the first one is, what's the first kids' show theme song that comes to mind?

Merry: You love me. I love you. Barney, I love you. You love me.

Michael: Yes.

Merry: Barney.

Michael: Wow. What was your very first job?

Merry: My very first job?

Michael: Yes.

Merry: Feeding cats when I was like nine years old.

Michael: Oh wow. Excellent.

Merry: In the neighborhood.

Michael: Very neat. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

Merry: T-Rex toddler.

Michael: Ok, why is that?

Merry: Because I could do both, but I had to pick one.

Michael: Fair enough. What's your go-to karaoke song or the song you would sing if you had to?

Merry: Crazy. Crazy for feeling.

Michael: Very nice. Classic. And, finally, what's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

Merry: [00:44:00] Pacifiers.

Michael: Pacifiers. Okay.

Merry: In my briefcase, in my purse, everywhere, every pocket in my coat.

Michael: Yeah, sure. There's a lot of dads that can relate to that.

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: Well, I appreciate that. So, before we wrap up, Merry, I wanna make sure that people know how they can stay connected with you, go deeper if this conversation struck a chord with them. For listeners who wanna learn more or take a next step with you, where should they go?

Merry: They go, could go to my LinkedIn under Merry Korn, M-E-R-R-Y-K-O-R-N, and I have a site which is www.firedtoinspired.com. There are two free workbooks. One is finding your life purpose. And the other is embracing courage, and that's about overcoming fear. And within the next week or so, there will be one on the holy grail of informational interviews, and they could also pre-sign up for the book that has not come out yet.

Michael: Amazing. We'll put links to all those in the show notes as well. Merry, I really appreciate how [00:45:00] openly you've, you've shared with me today, not just the milestones, but the, sort of the internal shifts that had to happen for you before this external success showed up, right? Like your story, it puts words, it gives language to something a lot of dads feel, but don't always know how to name.

There's that, you know, you figure out a way to manage that tension between responsibility and purpose and presence, and you did it in a very real way, right?

Merry: Yeah.

Michael: Life's not easy. There are those times that are, you know, not going to go your way, but you didn't let that stop you, right? And your, your story is very inspiring, so I really appreci-, appreciate you being here, so thank you for that. And, finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com. Subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. It comes out every Friday. It's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters now, and if this [00:46:00] conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it.

Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.