Scott Maderer on Aligning Work, Fatherhood, and What Matters Most

[00:00:00] Scott: That honesty and that integrity is so important 'cause usually what we're end up doing is we just kind of try to muscle through and do it all, especially as guys. And we don't need help from anybody. I'm not gonna talk to anybody. I'm, you know, going, going, going and, and that's not healthy. And yet that's kind of how we're told we're supposed to act.

And again, that's a lie, but it's a lie that we're all told, you know, so we believe it.

[00:00:35] Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs. My guest today is Scott Maderer. Scott has spent years helping people move from simply working to living with intention.

Not by chasing hacks or optimizing every minute of the day, but by getting clear on how they actually use their time, their strengths, and their energy. [00:01:00] He's reinvented his own career multiple times, lived through serious financial and personal hardship, and come out the other side with a much clearer definition of what alignment really looks like, especially for men with families.

Scott, welcome to Gap to Gig. I'm really glad you're here.

[00:01:12] Scott: Thanks so much for having me. I'm looking forward to our conversation today.

[00:01:15] Michael: Likewise. So, you work with a lot of people who look successful from the outside, but feel unsettled on the inside. Right? So, when someone comes to you with that feeling, where do you usually start the conversation?

[00:01:27] Scott: You know, you start, well, it's kind of twofold. Um, part of it is to start actually on the kind of tactical side, and then the other side is to start on the strategic side. So, kind of take, breaking that down a little bit. Tactical means getting in and figuring out what's holding them back. What are the blocks?

Maybe what tools are they using? What tools are they not using? How are they working for 'em? You know, just the, the nuts and bolts, practical guts.

[00:01:56] Michael: Right. Right.

[00:01:58] Scott: Unfortunately, that's usually where most people [00:02:00] stop. They wanna fix it by, you know, gimme a new app, give me a new tool, give me something like that.

And that's good, but it doesn't fix the problem long term.

[00:02:08] Michael: Right.

[00:02:09] Scott: So, the strategic side is beginning to ask questions about what is your real why. What's the drive behind the goal?

[00:02:20] Michael: Yeah.

[00:02:21] Scott: You know, goals by definition have a beginning, a middle, and an end. I, I wanna lose weight. I'm losing weight, I've lost weight.

You know, I, I wanna get a promotion. I'm trying to get a pro-, I've got a promotion, you know, whatever it is, there's a beginning, a middle, and an end. Where the why is more about the emotion, the feeling, the deeper rooted, what's the purpose behind that goal?

[00:02:47] Michael: Yeah.

[00:02:47] Scott: You know, do I wanna lose weight because I just wanna look better for the summer, or do I wanna lose weight because I wanna live longer and spend more time with my family and my wife and my child, and you know, I wanna [00:03:00] be there for them?

One of those is a deeper why than the other, but they're both a why. And so that's the strategic side, is helping people unpack that internal work to figure out what's really the purpose behind the stuff that they're trying to do, and is what they're doing in alignment with that purpose 'cause a lot of times it's not.

[00:03:27] Michael: Right.

And I imagine that is, that's the key here, right, of it's easy to say, I'm gonna make changes and go make changes. But if they don't align with your purpose,

[00:03:38] Scott: they don't stick. Yeah.

[00:03:40] Michael: Yeah.

[00:03:40] Scott: You, you end up having to force it through with willpower.

[00:03:43] Michael: Yeah.

[00:03:43] Scott: And willpower is a finite resource.

[00:03:46] Michael: Yeah.

[00:03:46] Scott: It, it only lasts so long.

Willpower is good for getting started. It's not good for finishing.

[00:03:51] Michael: Right.

[00:03:52] Scott: You know, and, and the why is the fuel to finish.

[00:03:55] Michael: Right. Oh, that makes sense. And it's probably [00:04:00] not easy to get to your why, right? It's like on the surface, yeah, okay, I can tell you why I wanna do something, but really it's probably more deep rooted than that, right? So it's not like something you can just like show up today and be like, okay, this is why I wanna do it. Maybe sometimes you can, but there's a,

[00:04:15] Scott: it's, there's always a process of uncovering and discovery. Um, and really honestly, it's an ongoing process 'cause things evolve over time.

[00:04:24] Michael: Great point.

[00:04:24] Scott: You know, you, you have new information that comes into your life. That could be information like, oh, I just got a diagnosis from the doctor.

[00:04:32] Michael: Yeah.

[00:04:32] Scott: It, it could be information like, I just inherited a bunch of money. You know, it, it doesn't have to be good. It doesn't have to be bad. It's just a change.

[00:04:41] Michael: Right.

[00:04:41] Scott: Sometimes, it could just be a different phase of life.

[00:04:44] Michael: Yeah.

[00:04:44] Scott: You know, my, my son is out of the house now.

[00:04:47] Michael: Yeah.

[00:04:48] Scott: My wife and I are empty nesters. Different kind of phase of life, you know?

[00:04:52] Michael: Right.

[00:04:53] Scott: We, we make different decisions now than we did a few years ago when he was part of our household because we have [00:05:00] different decisions that we can make. So, it's not a, people put a value judgment to my why is change. And it's like sometimes that's just natural. So it's an evo-, evolution. It's a discovery process.

And then it's also a lot of times the whys that we come up with initial are kind of the whys that either everyone else has told us should be our why. Like it's the why that we're living. It's someone else's why.

[00:05:30] Michael: Yeah.

[00:05:30] Scott: Or society or culture. You know, it says this is important. So, this is where somebody will have a definition of success based on what other people see as opposed to what's really true.

And that, ,oftentimes leads to misalignment because I'm, I'm trying to appear a certain way, but that's not in alignment with who I really am.

[00:05:53] Michael: Right. So really at the root of it is being honest with yourself, I presume then, right? Like, it's not societal [00:06:00] expectations. It's not, you know, what you think is best for you necessarily.

Well, I guess it is to some degree, but it's,

[00:06:09] Scott: it's getting rid of the shoulds.

[00:06:10] Michael: Yeah.

[00:06:11] Scott: I should feel this way. I should act this way. I should take this job. I should. Should, you know?

[00:06:22] Michael: Right.

[00:06:23] Scott: Should's the wrong frame there. It's, I choose to live this way. I choose to take this job, I choose to... Now all of a sudden I've got the power, I've got the decision making, I've got, I've got ownership.

[00:06:37] Michael: Right.

[00:06:38] Scott: And it's deliberate. Even if it's the wrong choice, it's my choice.

[00:06:43] Michael: Right. Right. That makes sense. So, I think a lot of dads, they know something feels off in their work, but they struggle to, kind of, put words to it. Like, they know that something's out of alignment. How do you help someone turn that kind of vague discomfort [00:07:00] into more clarity without just jumping straight into drastic changes?

[00:07:05] Scott: Well, first off, you have to realize that incremental change is always stickier than drastic change, uh, with very few exceptions. You know, again, we could go back to the, you just got a diagnosis from the doctor. Yeah, sometimes you radically change. You know, I, I Doc said, if you don't do this, you're gonna die.

[00:07:22] Michael: Right.

[00:07:22] Scott: You know? Okay. You know, but, but short of that kind of major crisis,

[00:07:27] Michael: yeah.

[00:07:28] Scott: Most change that really sticks is incremental change. It's change where you look at not hitting the ball outta the park, but just getting on first base. You, I, I'm gonna make a little bit of a change. I'm gonna master that. Now I'm gonna add to it.

Now I'm gonna add to it. 'Cause it's about building habits and systems more than it is about just drastic light switch change.

[00:07:54] Michael: Right.

[00:07:54] Scott: So when you realize that, it's about stepping back and going, what is the [00:08:00] small actions I can start taking today that over time. Build up and get me where I want to go?

[00:08:08] Michael: Right.

[00:08:08] Scott: That's frustrating. You know?

[00:08:12] Michael: Right.

[00:08:13] Scott: And most men, it's like, I, we lose patience. We're like, I, I, it's fix it now.

[00:08:18] Michael: Right.

[00:08:18] Scott: You can't.

[00:08:19] Michael: Right.

[00:08:20] Scott: And, and that's irritating and frustrating, and you start to feel like a failure. You start to burn out on it, you know, oh, this is never gonna work and all of that.

And that's not true. But it's the lies we tell ourselves to sort of protect ourselves and keep us in the same place, which feels comfortable.

[00:08:39] Michael: Correct.

[00:08:39] Scott: It's not the right place, but I know it, you know, I, I, I know what this feels like and so it's okay. It's the devil I know versus the devil I don't know. And it's, it's internal resistance that we all have.

And it's natural. It's normal. It's human. Does it serve us well?

[00:08:57] Michael: Right. And so, [00:09:00] yes, it, on the surface, change can be very difficult, right? We all tend to be resistant to change, but we probably, it seems like, we overcomplicate it often, right? It's like, take the first step, right? You're not gonna go from zero to a hundred immediately, right?

[00:09:22] Scott: Right.

[00:09:23] Michael: Take the first step. Then you can take the second step, and all of a sudden, you're ready to take the third step and it just kind of compounds, right, is I think what you're saying is that like if you break it down into smaller elements, it's more manageable. It's not as overwhelming, right? And all of a sudden you've taken something that appears drastic in the beginning and it's more, it's achievable now.

[00:09:42] Scott: Right.

[00:09:43] Michael: Right, like you can just start doing it. You can take that first step.

[00:09:46] Scott: And a lot of times we almost, we wait for permission or we wait for the right time, you know? Oh, well, we'll wait till New Year's. Why? Why is January 1st magic?

[00:09:58] Michael: Correct.

[00:09:58] Scott: You know? Start [00:10:00] tomorrow. I don't care. You know, there, there's nothing that says that you have to wait, and yet we want to wait.

We have all these internal beliefs that tend to keep us stuck and unpacking that, not to figure out the why behind it. You know, why do I have that resistance? But literally, just like you said, what action can I take?

[00:10:21] Michael: Right.

[00:10:23] Scott: So, I'll give you a couple of small examples, but they're, they're important. When people have a tendency to say things, it shows up in their language.

[00:10:32] Michael: Yeah.

[00:10:32] Scott: So, people will say things like, around time, I'm too busy to or, you know, I don't have time for that. You, you hear the phrasing?

[00:10:43] Michael: Yep.

[00:10:44] Scott: Change the language. If instead you said, that's not a priority for me right now. You'd actually make a different decision. I, I'm giving you an example. You, you imagine you're sitting at work, you're a cubicle worker, so you're sitting in your cubicle or you're typing away.[00:11:00]

I'm like, towards the end of the day, coworker comes by and is like, um, Hey, didn't you have to go to your daughter's soccer game tonight? And you're like, I'm too busy. You know, I just don't have time to make it to my daughter's game. Your coworker's gonna sympathize with you. They're gonna pat you on the back and go, oh, I'm so sorry.

I'm busy, too. You know, work is crazy, and they walk off and you're still there typing away. If on the other hand you looked at your coworker and you said, you know, it's really not a priority for me to make it to my daughter's soccer game. Most of us, first off, saying that out loud, it'd be like, that kind of feels icky, you know?

Secondly, most coworkers would be like, dude, really? They'd smack you upside the head, you know? They'd be like, what are you talking about? Log off the computer. Go to the game. You can answer the email later.

[00:11:54] Michael: Right.

[00:11:55] Scott: Now, granted, if you're a, a heart surgeon and you're in the middle of the OR and you're [00:12:00] doing open heart surgery, okay, yeah, don't go to the daughter's soccer game, but 99.9% of the time, even for the heart surgeon,

[00:12:09] Michael: Yeah.

[00:12:09] Scott: That's not the kind of situation, you know?

[00:12:11] Michael: Right.

[00:12:12] Scott: They really are making a choice to prioritize something that's less important over something that's more important. It, it really is what they're doing, but they hide it from themselves and others by saying, I'm too busy.

[00:12:28] Michael: Yeah.

[00:12:28] Scott: You know, I, I, I don't have time. That's an excuse.

[00:12:32] Michael: Right.

[00:12:32] Scott: You're lying. So just admit it.

[00:12:36] Michael: Right. Do you think that's because we get lost, it's easy for us to get lost in the details of whatever we're focused on in that moment, that it's just...

[00:12:43] Scott: There's a million reasons. Um, you know, it could be focus, it could be fear, it could be, you know, oh, my boss won't understand.

I'll get in trouble. I'll get fired. You know, those are all kind of fear-based feelings. It could be, you know, this is the only way I can get ahead, and [00:13:00] I value being a good provider and being successful in these, you know, trappings of success. Uh, it could be, and, and by the way, I'm not even saying it's the right choice or the wrong choice.

I'm just saying make the choice with the realization that what you're doing is prioritizing one thing over the other. If you have made the decision that at this point in time, it truly is more important to answer that email than to go to your daughter's soccer game, say, I prioritizing the email, you know?

[00:13:31] Michael: Right.

[00:13:32] Scott: At this point in my life, for whatever reason, this is more important. Okay. It's more important. Um, you know, and again, that could be the season of life you're in. Maybe you're pushing really hard for that promotion and you and your spouse, y'all talked about it. You've agreed, I'm gonna have to pull extra hours right now.

I'm gonna have to work a little harder. You know, 'cause I'm naming, aiming for that next position. And that's important to us. And we're on the same page. It means I'm gonna be less available for a little while.

[00:14:00] Okay.

[00:14:00] Michael: Right.

[00:14:00] Scott: You know, but what happens is we make those decisions unconsciously, and then we end up making the wrong one because we don't even admit that we have a choice.

[00:14:11] Michael: Right.

[00:14:11] Scott: We just like, I have to stay here and answer the email. No you don't.

[00:14:15] Michael: Right. So if I'm hearing this correctly, I feel like there is a through line of honesty, being honest with yourself, right? Why are you making these choices?

[00:14:28] Scott: Intentionality.

[00:14:28] Michael: Like you have to make the choices, and the default is typically the, the easy choice, but that's not always being honest with yourself, right?

[00:14:37] Scott: Mm-hmm.

[00:14:38] Michael: It's, yes. If you are in the middle of open heart surgery, you, you have somebody's life on the line there. You can't just get up and go. Hopefully, you've kind of planned your schedule accordingly. Maybe you started the surgery early in the day, so you don't run into that issue to begin with, but things happen, right?

But, in most cases, like if you are, you know, sitting at your computer and you've got an email that you just got, [00:15:00] can you respond to it now or can you respond to it later because you want to go do that thing with your family, or go do the thing that's important for you? It's good for your health. It's, you have to be honest with why you're making that decision.

So, it's not just making that decision, but you've gotta be honest with yourself. Otherwise, you're gonna keep making decisions that aren't necessarily best for you over the long term.

[00:15:21] Scott: Right. You end up going to the default. You know, you kind of default to a particular behavior. And generally when you're not being intentional, when you're just doing by default, while you're staying in the same habit and the same routine and the same structure, you keep doing what you've been doing, you're gonna keep getting what you've been getting, you know? And for most of us, when you have that feeling of discomfort you were talking about, what it is, is the realization that i'm not fitting. I want something more. I want something different. You know, there needs to be growth or change, but if you just keep repeating the same [00:16:00] behaviors, growth and change can't come.

[00:16:02] Michael: Right. And so it makes me wonder, like when work and family feel like they're constantly pulling at each other, right? You're trying to, to do your best at work. You wanna, maybe you have a job you love, maybe you don't, but you're just trying to accomplish what you need to accomplish at work, but you also want to be there for your family, with your family, right, and you want to be active and present in your kids' lives, your partner's life. You know, there's this tension, there seems to be a real tension there, and I'm wondering if like that's what, if that tension, what that really is made of? Is it just these choices that we're making or is it, there's something different there that is, you know, we're trying to, to figure out on a regular basis between balancing work and balancing family and ourselves.

[00:16:51] Scott: So, one of the things I, and again, I'm back to language, uh, sorry. Words are so important to me. So like, for instance, I don't like the term work-life balance. Uh, [00:17:00] I don't call it balance because balance for a lot of people has this unconscious idea of equality. I have to give equal to everything,

[00:17:10] Michael: Right.

[00:17:11] Scott: And that's physically impossible. You know, it's like if you're gonna work six hours and you're gonna be with your family six hours and you're gonna give yourself six hours and you're gonna, you know, at some point it's like, I got more stuff than I got hours, you know, and it happens very quickly. So, it's not really balance, it's harmony.

And if you think about music, harmony is when you have different things but they fit together in a pattern that works, that we hear as that sounds good. You know? And versus non harmony is when you got disparate notes and you hear that and you're like, oh, that doesn't sound good at all. So, what we're aiming for is that [00:18:00] give and take between all of these areas, and a lot of times, again, that comes down to that honesty, that integrity, that being able to communicate and say, hey, I'm going for a promotion right now. We both agree that's important. It's the results of that is for the next six months, I'm gonna be at spending extra hours at work. Are we okay with that? Is, is this promotion important enough that we both agree that sacrificing some family time right now is worth it in the long term? Oh, it is, okay, then go for it. It's not okay, then what do we wanna do instead? You know, what other choices do we wanna make? And so that honesty and that integrity is so important 'cause usually what we're end up doing is we just kind of try to muscle through and do it all, especially as guys.[00:19:00]

We don't need help from anybody. I'm not gonna talk to anybody. I'm, you know, go away. Go away. Go away. And that's not healthy. And, yet, that's kind of how we're told we're supposed to act. And again, that's a lie, but it's a lie that we're all told, you know, so we believe it.

[00:19:17] Michael: Right.

So it sounds to me like the, this harmony that we're trying to get between work and home and people that matter to us, right?

[00:19:27] Scott: Yeah.

[00:19:29] Michael: Just like we talked about earlier, there is a, it's evolving.

[00:19:33] Scott: Always.

[00:19:34] Michael: So you're not, what you're seeking today for in terms of what's harmonious to you today could be different a year from now, a month from now, you know, any period of time from now or, and how it was in the past, right? And especially as

[00:19:48] Scott: absolutely

[00:19:49] Michael: your children grow up, the time you spend with them changes, the way you spend time with them changes, right?

And, so, finding that harmony, it's, you're [00:20:00] just looking for in the moment, what is the right decision that I'm making?

[00:20:04] Scott: Right.

[00:20:04] Michael: Am I being honest with myself and making that decision? And if, if you are married, like it's a partnership, right? And

[00:20:12] Scott: you gotta communicate,

[00:20:13] Michael: even if you, you're not married, it's like with your kids, like it is a, there's more than one life impacted by the decisions that you make, right? So it's,

[00:20:22] Scott: yeah. Even if you're completely single with no kids. Most of us don't live in complete and total isolation. You know, there, there are other people around us.

[00:20:34] Michael: Yeah, that is true.

[00:20:34] Scott: And there's some give and take. You know, whether it's even just, I'm not gonna be able to hang out with my buds for a while.

Okay, that's still a conscious choice.

[00:20:43] Michael: Yeah.

[00:20:43] Scott: And you've gotta be intentional and honest about that.

[00:20:47] Michael: I love that. That's, it's so easy to forget about intention, right? It's just easy just to make the whatever comes in front of you, just make that decision then and there and not really make it through, right?

[00:21:00] And, in doing so, you're not being honest with yourself, which then leads you to making decisions that you may regret later.

[00:21:08] Scott: Mm-hmm.

[00:21:09] Michael: So I wonder, like, for a dad who says they just don't have enough time, what's the first thing you encourage him to, to look at before changing a schedule?

[00:21:18] Scott: What they're actually spending their time on.

Um, I, I'm a firm believer in awareness of a problem is the first step to fixing a problem. So, when you've got that nagging feeling of, oh, I just don't have time to go start my business, or I don't got time to spend with this or that, or the other thing, whatever it is, first, do an audit. And that's real simple by the way.

I can tell you how to do it. Take a sheet of paper. Every 30 minutes or so, put the timestamp down the left hand side of the paper, you know, every 30 minutes, put your watch or your phone to vibrate every 30 minutes and every 30 minutes, kind of jot down what you've been doing. [00:22:00] You don't have to write every detail.

This isn't about writing an essay. This is just, you know, I, I was on Facebook, I scrolled some cat videos, I answered an email, whatever, you know, and do that for 5, 6, 7 days. And what I promise you is if you go back and look at that and start kind of highlighting and looking for patterns, there will be things that if I asked you how much time do you spend doing whatever.

How much time do you spend watching Netflix? I'll just pick on Netflix. You know, how much time do you spend on the, at the gym? How much time do you spend answering email? Whatever it is, you'll give me a number and you're wrong.

[00:22:45] Michael: Yeah.

[00:22:46] Scott: And not even a little bit wrong, you know, like you'll say, oh, I spend an hour doing that, and then you catalog the time and it's like four hours, five hours, eight hours worth of time in a week, and you're like [00:23:00] how does that escape me? Well, it's because we're really bad at actually measuring time and knowing what we do. Our memories don't work that way, and so until you write it down and start looking for patterns, you're blind to it. And literally, I've seen people do this exercise and then do it again like three months later, and it's changed because the awareness of it suddenly made them make a different choice.

[00:23:29] Michael: Right.

Yeah, I've noticed like...

[00:23:30] Scott: Like, oh, I should spend more time at the gym now.

[00:23:32] Michael: Yeah. I've noticed when I've tracked time in the past, as I'm tracking time, I'm like, oh yeah, I'm realizing why am I doing this right now?

[00:23:40] Scott: Yep.

[00:23:41] Michael: There's something else I should be doing that's more important, has more of an impact.

[00:23:44] Scott: There's built-in accountability.

[00:23:45] Michael: It's like self-adjusting as I'm doing it.

[00:23:48] Scott: Yeah.

[00:23:48] Michael: Right. And time I think is like we were talking about earlier, of just taking like one step at a time, breaking down that smaller increment just to recapture time, like five minutes, at the end of the day, is such a [00:24:00] small percentage of the day, such a small percentage of the week, right?

If you can just recapture five minutes and say, okay, with this five minutes, I'm now going to use that to, to, you know, accomplish this goal. Like spend five more minutes face to face with my family, or five more minutes getting this thing done for work. You do that once, right? You've recaptured five minutes, then you find another five minutes later, now you're up to 10 minutes.

Like it starts to build on itself, just like taking those next, next steps.

[00:24:32] Scott: And even if all you did was recapture five minutes, but you did it for every single day, stop and think about what that would add up to in a year.

[00:24:41] Michael: Right.

[00:24:42] Scott: Okay. So, we, we almost overestimate the impact of that small amount of time in the immediate and wildly underestimate the change in that small amount of time over the long term. You know, we don't really look at, we're [00:25:00] like, oh, five minutes. That doesn't matter. That's just five minutes.

[00:25:02] Michael: Right.

[00:25:03] Scott: But five minutes times seven days a week times 52 weeks, i'm not gonna do the math in my head, but it's a big number.

[00:25:10] Michael: It is, yeah.

And we're talking about over a week of time.

[00:25:13] Scott: You know, that that adds up and that makes massive change.

[00:25:17] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:25:17] Scott: And that's again, that compounding effect that we forget about and, and lose sight of. So, it's even, not even five becomes 10 becomes 15, though. That's true, too.

[00:25:28] Michael: Right.

[00:25:28] Scott: It's even if all you managed to do was change five minutes.

[00:25:32] Michael: Yep.

[00:25:32] Scott: But if you did that consistently over time, that's massive.

[00:25:36] Michael: Right.

Right. And it's such a, it sounds weird on the surface, but it is easy for five minutes, right? I'm not saying I can recapture three hours of my day.

[00:25:47] Scott: Right.

[00:25:48] Michael: You know, before by midnight tonight. Not gonna happen, right, but could I identify five minutes that I've wasted today that I could, you know, tomorrow use that time more wisely?

That is a manageable [00:26:00] goal to accomplish, right? Like that is just something I can implement right now and be like, okay, tomorrow I'm gonna recapture that, that five minutes after I go through my inbox and before I do this next task, like I'm gonna...

[00:26:11] Scott: When I found myself scrolling those cat videos.

[00:26:13] Michael: Right. I'm gonna cut the cat videos out, and I'm going to insert this task because then maybe I finished my day five minutes earlier.

And that's five minutes now that I can apply to something that is more interesting to me, that is more beneficial for my family, that is

[00:26:29] Scott: mm-hmm.

[00:26:29] Michael: you know, has a greater impact over the long run, right? It's such a,

[00:26:34] Scott: It multiplies.

[00:26:34] Michael: It's something you can just, it's not as hard as it, it may seem on the surface of like, okay, how do I stop scrolling cat videos?

Maybe you don't stop scrolling a hundred percent. But maybe you get five minutes back tomorrow.

[00:26:46] Scott: But if you do it for the right block of time or if you do it, and again, that's why awareness is the first step and the first key is because that's what lets you start deciding where do I want to cut back? What do I [00:27:00] wanna change and or what tools do I need?

What behavior do I need? What habit do I need? What system do whatever it is? There's a lot of tactical stuff, but what most of us do is we start trying to change the tactics before we even really know what the problem is. It's like if I download this app, it says it'll, AI will suddenly master my time for me.

What are you fixing? You don't even know what you're fixing. How do you know if that's the right tool? And yet we kind of put the tool before the, the awareness of the problem. So you asked earlier, what do I do as a coach? You know, what's the first step? That's the first things is pulling those things apart and going, what is the real problem?

What is the real fuel, the why? Now we can start putting the right tools in place.

[00:27:52] Michael: Right. That makes sense. So, you know, part of this, I think, is when you're trying to [00:28:00] figure out how do I become more harmonious with my time that we feel guilt, right,

[00:28:07] Scott: mm-hmm

[00:28:08] Michael: as dads? Like, we feel guilt about slowing down to spend more time at home.

We feel guilt about wanting more meaning in our jobs. We feel guilt about providing, whether that's financially, emotionally, whatever it may be. Um, guilt about not being everywhere at once. Where do you kind of see that guilt coming from and how do we best handle that?

[00:28:29] Scott: Again, I think a lot of it comes from external messaging that we get, that we have to be all things at all times to all people. Women get this messaging, too. It's a different context, but it's the same kind of thing. It comes from living to external expectations rather than really sitting down and for yourself or with your partner, doing the hard communication and work [00:29:00] about what is important to us, what's our values, what's, what are we gonna say yes to? What are the things that we're gonna put at the top of the list and what are the things we're gonna put at the bottom of the list? You know, all of this, by the way, everything we talked about with time, if I just switched it and said, money, the exact same conversation happens.

You know, the way we think about time and money is usually very similar. That's why I talk about time and money almost interchangeably because that's where those guilt shows up is it's a finite resource. We only have so much time. We only have so much money. I, therefore, am always going to have a limit.

There's always gonna point a point where I have to say, I can do that, but I can't do that. I've run out of time. I've run out of money. That's the line. By the way, I don't care how much money you make, [00:30:00] there's a line, you know? I have worked with people that make $30,000 a year. I've worked with people that make $300,000 a year.

I've worked with a few people that make million plus uh, dollars a year. They all have choices.

[00:30:15] Michael: Exactly.

[00:30:16] Scott: So, it doesn't matter. It's, it's just making those choices.

[00:30:19] Michael: It's a really interesting comparison of time and money and how similar they are. I hadn't thought about the fact that yes, they are finite resources.

I think we all recognize that, right? But they also come with the same sort of questions. Then decisions we have to make that for how we are going to utilize those finite resources and what kind of impact we want them to have on our lives, and, you know, for the people that matter to us, our family, our friends.

[00:30:47] Scott: And they feed back into each other because you make time choices about like where I, how much time I spend at work versus home, which can affect the money, which then feeds back into the time, [00:31:00] you know, and, and so it's, it's not only are they both similar mindsets, they're connected.

[00:31:06] Michael: Yeah. Great. Yeah. That's so interesting that not only are they similar in terms of the resources, but the way that they impact each other, like you just said, of like the yin and the yang of you do one, it affects the other, and you do the other, and it affects that one.

And so, like if, if a dad wants to move more toward meaningful work, but can't afford to make that dramatic leap, what's a responsible first step they should, they could actually look at?

[00:31:37] Scott: Well, first I'm gonna step back and say, can't? You know, that's an interesting choice of words. Um, but I, and I would, I would challenge that word, you know, can't, or can't right now, or why can't you, you know, what's the can't?

Uh, because again, can't is a choice. Is it true? Not saying it isn't just saying, let's examine [00:32:00] the truth of that. Is that just your belief, or is that empirically true? But let's step past that. Then It's about stopping and going, okay, what is the direction and the destination?

[00:32:13] Michael: Right.

[00:32:13] Scott: What's the roadmap? I'll give you an exercise for that. Step back and say, "where do I wanna be in five years?" So the, the mental exercise I have people do is what I call an airport exercise. I set it in an airport 'cause I used to be in a corporate job, and I used to be in an airport all the time. So, you know how when you fly somewhere and then you're flying home, a lot of times there's a connecting airport?

You land and then you gotta change planes. Imagine it's five years in the future and you land in that airport in the middle, you come trotting over to the gate, and you look up... flight delayed. Yay. You know, you walk up, you, how long is the flight delayed? Four hours. So, you do what anyone does stuck in an airport.

You go find either a bar or a restaurant to hang out in for a little while, depending [00:33:00] on your particular poison, the time of day. And as you walk into a restaurant, uh, from across the restaurant, you hear a voice, "hey, how you doing?" It's a friend of yours. Y'all have lost track of each other. He's moved away. You moved away.

Whatever it is. It's been five years since y'all seen each other. Turns out you both got a couple of hours to kill. You grab a table in the corner, sit down across from each other. Remember, this is five years from today. Your friend looks at you and says, how have you been? He said, you know what? This has been the best five years of my life. Because... That's your job, right?

What comes after because? You know, what would be true about your relationship? What would be true about your spiritual walk? What would be true about your finances? What would be true about your career? What would be true about all of the different, your health, all of the components of your life? And really write that down.

Now, here's [00:34:00] the truth. Five years from now, that's probably not all gonna be true. That's not the point of the exercise. The point of the exercise is to begin to get a direction to go, "huh?" I want my health to be better. I probably should start doing something about that. You know, I want my relationship to be better.

I should probably start doing something about that. You know, I want my finances to be better. I should probably start doing something. Whatever it is, the areas that you have that aren't perfectly aligned with where you wanna be, it's the recognition I need to start doing something now if I want that to be different in five years.

[00:34:37] Michael: Right. So, you've gotta be honest with yourself, but you're getting...

[00:34:40] Scott: Take action.

[00:34:41] Michael: Right, and take action and that is the strategic part of,

[00:34:44] Scott: That's the strategic part, yeah.

[00:34:45] Michael: of this, right, of like, you've got to think about like, what is your why, right? Like, you wanna get to, this is where you wanna be in five years, how do you get there? But...

[00:34:58] Scott: And then you come back to what's the [00:35:00] tiniest step I can take today that moves that direction?

You know, if, if, if your, if you want your health to be better, maybe put down the potato chips and go for a walk. You know? It's like...

[00:35:11] Michael: Right, right. It's the simplest things can be the, the easiest first steps. Like, and so you, I, I like how you make it, you bring your imagination to it, but it's still practical, right?

It's like, okay, this is, this is your end goal. This is why you want to get there. Now, you can break down like, how do I get to that goal? And, you know, it's a balance of where are you gonna spend your time? What are you gonna do with your money? What are you going to do with, you know, just the choices that you make in life?

[00:35:46] Scott: Mm-hmm.

What are you gonna say yes to?

[00:35:48] Michael: Right.

[00:35:48] Scott: It really boils, and I, by the way, I like framing it that way, rather than, what are you gonna say no to? You know, people look at things like a money budget and they're like, oh, it's so restrictive. It's all this stuff. No, it's not. [00:36:00] It, it starts out with nothing on it.

You need to write down what's the most important thing.

[00:36:06] Michael: So, how can dads then take a, like a simple, honest inventory of these things without turning into like a, an exercise in self-criticism? Like how do they take inventory of their time, of their money and, and such that in a way that's productive as opposed to demotivating?

[00:36:21] Scott: So I, earlier I talked about a time audit. You could do the same thing with the money, which is simply, you know, write down what you're spending money on. Same sort of activity and do that for a period of time and then look back at it. Now, as the far as how not to be critical, one tool is get a referee, which I would call a coach.

You know, um, you, you would not believe the number of times I've said in, you know, with a couple and gone, yeah, this isn't weird, you know, 'cause they're both, when they're looking at it, think about it. You are looking at your money. You have one set of references: [00:37:00] your money. I've coached over a thousand clients.

I've done a budget myself for my own family, for, you know, however it is, 2006, or 20 years, every month. So, I've got a lot more context, so I can look at that number and go, that's not, I know you feel like that's a really big number for groceries, but given the fact that you have a family of four, that's pretty normal, you know?

[00:37:26] Michael: Right.

[00:37:26] Scott: And, and I can help give that context. So, some of it's normalizing it and getting the context of what is actually quote normal for your family and your situation and your phase of life and all of that because all too often what we're doing is basically kind of lobbing bombs over the fence, either at each other if we're in a couple or at ourselves about stuff that usually is the wrong stuff. We, we pay [00:38:00] attention to things that aren't really the drivers, um, or we pay attention to it, but then we sort of abdicate ourselves from the ability to change it. You know, it, it just is what it is. People will say that. And so it's recognizing that it's not about good or bad, it's not about a value judgment, it's just data.

And then you have choice and power to change that data so that six months from now, it's different data. You know, where do I have control? Where do I not have control? You can't control everything.

[00:38:37] Michael: Right.

[00:38:37] Scott: You can control something,

[00:38:39] Michael: Right, and so, I like the idea of defining it as control. Like what you can control, what you can't control, because you can't, you can't control everything, obviously, right and the things that are outta your control, you could spend energy and time on them, but you can't control them. There's not a lot of effect or purpose that [00:39:00]

[00:39:00] Scott: Right.

[00:39:00] Michael: your time is...

[00:39:01] Scott: You don't actually don't get the bang for the buck there.

[00:39:02] Michael: Right, yeah. That, perfect way to put it.

[00:39:04] Scott: Yeah.

[00:39:04] Michael: Um, so, you know, I, we talk about like, dads feel this need, obviously the need to provide. So they have work, they have a home life, but they also have to take care of themselves, too,

[00:39:17] Scott: Mm-hmm.

[00:39:18] Michael: at some point, right? And, so, sometimes, you know, that can mean a lot of different things. It can mean working out or having time to do things with friends, or sometimes it's, you know, maybe it's giving back, maybe it's, you know, serving a community or whatever it may be.

How do you help dads do that in a way that strengthens their, their family instead of competing with it?

[00:39:39] Scott: I think a lot of times, again, it comes back to those intentional choices, and what am I gonna say yes to? Um, am I saying yes to, I'll use self-care as kind of the name or, or activities that are recharging my batteries, right?

Am I saying yes to it out of a selfish place or out of a [00:40:00] selfless place because it is true, you know, the old adage of you can't pour things out if your cup isn't full, or you know, you hear about, you're on the airplane, the mask falls down, put your own mask on before. You have all these things. That's true.

You know, if your tank is empty, you're only gonna give so much to your family and to your work and to other things that are important. So, sacrificing self doesn't actually serve those other things anyway. So, going back to at the same time, if all I'm ever doing is spending time on myself, well now those other things aren't being served, you know, and my work is gonna suffer and my relationship is gonna suffer and all of these other things.

So that's being selfish, but it is truly selfless to recognize I have to put some time in here for me, or else I can't serve these other areas of my [00:41:00] life well. And, and I think all too often as guys, we try to lie to ourselves and say, oh, I don't need any of that. You know, I'll just suck it up. I'll get through it.

And, yeah, you could do that for a period of time, but you can't do it forever. At, at some point your battery runs dry, and I see that where the, the, all of a sudden now you've got the fights, and you've got conflict, and we're not on the same page, and you're heading to divorce or suicide or all sorts of negative repercussions.

[00:41:32] Michael: Right.

[00:41:32] Scott: And it comes out of that lack of intentionality and awareness around that, that harmony that we were talking about.

[00:41:40] Michael: Right. And it's gotta be in harmony with the other things you're spending your time and energy on, right? It's...

[00:41:45] Scott: Everything. Yeah.

[00:41:46] Michael: Right, it's self, but it's also work. It's family. It's all the things that are important to you.

But also, I mean, again, you can't forget yourself at the end of this because like you said, if your tank is empty, you have nothing left to give.

[00:41:58] Scott: And what I see a lot of times [00:42:00] is people will even start to say, okay, these things are all important to me. Let's, let's use, you know, faith, family, health, you know, all of these things are important.

And then they'll even kind of say, well, this is more important than that. You know, it, I'll give you an example. I, I've had a client that, she had a small business. She really didn't need the money, but she liked to be busy and have work and you know, whatever. And her and her husband kind of had this, he had his business, she had hers.

The two of them were working and they had both come to me. And she would have guilt. And he would have guilt because when the grandkids were dropped over, they were like, oh, we wanna go play with the grandkids, but now we feel guilty 'cause we're not working. And then if they ignored the grandkids so that they would work, then they felt guilty that they weren't spending time with the grands.

So, no matter what they did, they felt guilty, you know? And I'm like, which [00:43:00] is actually more important? If, if you have to choose between these two, which would you choose? Oh, oh, the grandkids. Then why are you feeling guilty? Choose the grandkids. You know, y'all don't need these jobs. You know, y'all have complete control over these businesses.

You work when you choose to, and as much as you choose to. Admit that the grandkids are more important, and go spend time with the grands and stop feeling guilty, you know?

[00:43:26] Michael: Right.

[00:43:26] Scott: And that's a particular client example, but we all do these sorts of things all the time where we feel guilty because we're not spending our time in two different ways, or our money in two different ways.

And you cannot do it. It's impossible. So there is a degree to which you have to decide. It goes back to why I chose the word priority. You have to decide what's the priority. If, if I have to choose between these two things, which am I gonna say yes to, and which am I gonna say no to? And then say yes to the one that you're gonna say yes to and don't feel guilty.

[00:43:59] Michael: Right. Right. [00:44:00] And again, it's control, right?

[00:44:03] Scott: It's hard to do.

[00:44:04] Michael: Hard to do, for sure, right, but when you think about it, it's, you can make the decisions based on what you can control.

[00:44:11] Scott: Yeah.

[00:44:11] Michael: Right. So.

[00:44:12] Scott: And, and again, different people have different amounts of control over different components of their life at different times.

[00:44:19] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:44:19] Scott: That's just called being alive.

[00:44:22] Michael: Right, that is, that is life. So, I wanna ask you one more question before we get into the speed round. You know, if a dad is listening that is feeling stretched thin right now. Is there a, a concrete shift that they could try this week that would move them more toward harmony between work and home and self?

[00:44:43] Scott: Yeah, I think, honestly, a lot of the exercises that we've already shared of doing, you know, starting to do a time audit, changing your language, recognizing that you have the power of choice and changing your language to things like, I chose to, or this is a priority, that isn't a priority. Those [00:45:00] small frames, even though they sound like they shouldn't make that big of an impact, if you would actually really put 'em in place, they'll make a massive difference because it suddenly starts to reprogram your brain to give yourself power back.

And just the fact that you start to recognize I have the ability to make something change already helps fix it. It's like you said earlier, you start tracking your time, and you make different decisions, you know?

[00:45:31] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:45:31] Scott: Subtly it happens.

[00:45:33] Michael: Right. That's a great point. The, the language aspect of it, it seems so underutilized, right, because it's just, it's just words on the surface, but there's more to it than that, right? Because now you're, it's a different approach.

[00:45:47] Scott: It, what happens is the words we use come out of beliefs. Okay, so the words you use expose the underlying belief. I had to. The belief is I [00:46:00] had no choice, right? Versus I chose to, the belief is I had a choice, right? And the beliefs we have create actions, and then those actions reinforce our beliefs, which then create actions which reinforce beliefs.

You know, it's a feedback loop.

[00:46:19] Michael: Right.

[00:46:19] Scott: So, if it's a negative loop, I have no power, so I act like I don't have power, which makes me feel like I don't have power, which makes me act like I don't. That's a negative loop and we spiral downward. If it's a positive feedback loop. I have the power of choice. I believe that I've made choices.

I have the power of choice. I act like I have the power of choice. Now it's a positive feedback loop and we begin to spiral upwards. So it's, it's because it's exposing underlying beliefs. Again, that's why earlier you said, I can't, the, the, you know, immediately my brain goes, I wanna talk about that word.

[00:46:58] Michael: Yeah.

[00:46:59] Scott: Because [00:47:00] that's exposing a belief,

[00:47:01] Michael: Right. Oh, that makes sense. Alright, this was super interesting and super productive, so I wanna completely flip it and go to something totally unproductive. It's nothing to do with anything, but it's our speed round. Five quick questions, starting with what's the first kid show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:47:17] Scott: Uh, this, today, is probably the Barney theme song 'cause I saw a cartoon about Barney earlier today, so now that song is stuck in my head, unfortunately.

[00:47:27] Michael: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that.

[00:47:28] Scott: Yeah. Not my first choice.

[00:47:29] Michael: No, definitely not. What was your very first job?

[00:47:33] Scott: My very first job. I actually, uh, worked for my dad. My dad owned a small business running a Sears store, a catalog Sears store, if you remember those back in the day when you went in.

And I worked for him starting when I was probably 11, 12 years old.

[00:47:48] Michael: Very cool. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

[00:47:55] Scott: Toddler-sized T-Rex. No doubt about it.

[00:47:57] Michael: Why is that?

[00:47:58] Scott: No doubt about it. Well, their arms are [00:48:00] short. I could probably stay outta the range.

[00:48:04] Michael: You know, I had not thought of that logic before, but

[00:48:08] Scott: That's...

[00:48:08] Michael: great answer.

[00:48:09] Scott: T-Rex-sized toddler, I mean, have you ever seen what toddlers grab for? That, yeah, they'd get a hold of me and it'd be all be over.

[00:48:15] Michael: Yeah. Oh, that's fair. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you would sing if you had to?

[00:48:20] Scott: Oh, go-to karaoke song.

I don't really do karaoke, but what would be my go-to song? Um, probably Sweet Caroline, just 'cause the audience would be forced to sing along.

[00:48:31] Michael: Smart. Smart. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

[00:48:38] Scott: Weirdest thing I've ever carried around in my bag, briefcase...

There's an obvious one, like a bag of dog poo, you know? Go to a festival and you had, my goddaughter has a service dog, so, you know, occasionally I'm carrying around that in my bag. Uh, that would be, that would probably qualify as pretty weird. Um, I've also carried a dog around in my [00:49:00] bag before, now that I think about it, but yeah.

[00:49:02] Michael: Yeah, yeah. I guess that's, uh, that's something people do, I guess. I mean, as long as the dog can fit in the bag, right?

[00:49:09] Scott: She,

[00:49:09] Michael: I could put a great,

[00:49:10] Scott: she fits.

[00:49:10] Michael: Right. Yeah, I could put a great Dane in the bag, or it'd be a really big bag. Uh,

[00:49:14] Scott: There's a guy that, uh, has a dog named Brodie that's a, a goldendoodle that's a very large dog, and he carries it around in a backpack.

[00:49:21] Michael: Oh, wow.

[00:49:22] Scott: I've seen video of it.

[00:49:23] Michael: Huh. Interesting. Well, this has been such a fascinating conversation. For anyone who wants to explore how you help people think through their time, talents, and direction, can you share a bit about what you're building or where people can learn about what you're building?

[00:49:36] Scott: Sure.

Absolutely. I, I'd be happy to. I put together a landing page just for your listeners. So if you go over to my website, which is inspiredstewardship.com, and then just forward slash gaptogig, all one word, gaptogig. What you'll find there is some free resources. So, some of these exercises I was sharing as well as some others around money and, and things like that are available there.

There's information about my [00:50:00] podcasts, my book, Inspired Living. All of that as well as a place you could schedule a time to meet with me and you find all of that over at inspiredstewardship.com/gaptogig.

[00:50:11] Michael: Amazing. Thank you so much, Scott. We'll make sure to put that in the show notes as well. Really appreciate you joining me for this conversation.

Your honesty, your perspective, the way you talk about balancing these things or, or not balancing, but living in harmony, right, of taking these different things that we make choices about every day and making them work for you as opposed to you just defaulting to whatever they expect from you. It's, it's fascinating to me.

And you make it feel so real. It's not just theory here, right? It's like practical application. And so I know a lot of dads listening are gonna hear themselves in, in what you shared and walk away with something that they can actually use. So, thank you again for being here, for the work you're doing. I appreciate it.

And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and find [00:51:00] yourself in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com, and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. It comes out every Friday, and it's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now.

And if this conversation resonated, please consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.