Sean Waldron on Purpose, Creativity, and Becoming a Present Dad

Gap to Gig with Sean Waldron #1
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[00:00:00] Sean: Perfect just feels like a cuss word these days.

[00:00:03] Yeah.

[00:00:04] Because it's a powerful word. It holds a lot of power to build up and to tear people down. Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads reimagining how work fits into life, not the other way around. It's where we talk about what comes next, how to make sense of the in-between and who we become in the process. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today my guest is Sean Waldron, a creative nomad turned storyteller, filmmaker, and founder of ROAR, a community helping dads rediscover purpose and connection through creativity and fatherhood.

[00:00:38] Michael: After years working across music, video production, design, and brand development, Sean is channeling his experience into a new documentary about fatherhood called Silly Cannonballs.

[00:00:47] His story hits home for dads, balancing creative callings with real world responsibilities and redefining what success looks like once you become a parent. Sean, welcome to the show. Glad to have you here.

[00:00:58] Sean: Likewise. You're hired, man. That was awesome.

[00:01:01] Michael: Thank you very much. I appreciate that. So, you've called yourself a creative nomad whose worn almost every hat in production. What first drew you into creative work?

[00:01:10] Sean: Yeah. It's funny. You sent me over the questions to write my little description, and that was, what came out. Creative nomad. You know, I started out in music and through there found my way into doing video production and graphic design and photography and all the creative things that have nothing to do with what I studied in college, which was sports management. I think mostly I was just trying to run away from the real world for a little while.

[00:01:40] Michael: Sure.

[00:01:41] Sean: Before having to get a job. But yeah, creative nomad. I tend to find a lot of the things that I do purpose-wise through the lens of creativity, through the lens of making something I'm maybe a little bit of a hopeless romantic.

[00:02:02] I enjoy beauty, and I think that there's a lot to behold in the creative spectrum, the creative arts.

[00:02:11] Michael: Sure. How'd you first get into the creative world?

[00:02:15] Sean: Yeah, it, trip and fall. I've been doing art since I was a little boy. I've always loved the idea of becoming, I told my parents I wanted to be an actress when I grew up, and to their chagrin, they didn't tell me that I was gonna be an actor. But, yeah, I really, it, it's just been an escape for a really long time. Music was my first passion and I figured I would try to be John Mayer as long as I could. And it didn't work out. So, through all of that, I, it was just a trip and fall again into video production. I started shooting some music videos for a friend who was blowing up on YouTube. And as I was trying to do the music thing I thought I could try to make some money doing that and pay for whatever bills that I had. I was living at home, so there was no bills except my credit card.

[00:03:17] And yeah, it was just what can I do to make money? Video production seemed like the closest thing that I had in my reach and and the less I kept doing it and made a little career out of it, which is crazy.

[00:03:32] Michael: That's cool. Very cool. So you've said that creative skills aren't just for the workplace. I know you've made a career out of it, but what does it look like when a dad actually brings those creative skills home?

[00:03:45] Sean: Yeah, good question. I, so you said I was working on a documentary,

[00:03:49] Michael: Right.

[00:03:50] Sean: Silly Cannonballs about fatherhood. Part of that documentary is an interview with my friend Krista, and she is a, an, awesome clinician counselor out here. And, she's done a lot of work with like teen girls and stuff like that with her company Girl Above.

[00:04:09] And now her counseling practice at Set Your Mind. Oh, she'll beat me up if I don't remember what this is.

[00:04:15] Michael: We'll have it in the show notes.

[00:04:17] Sean: Yeah, it's Set Your Mind, I think. Anyways, so, in, in my conversation with her, she came up with that thought of you're what you do or what you're skilled at, the things that you care about, the things that you're working towards. A lot of times I think as men, but probably everybody, but as men, we think that those things are reserved for work. Those things are reserved for getting paid.

[00:04:43] Michael: Right.

[00:04:43] Sean: Those are the things that we do to bring home an income.

[00:04:47] Michael: Right.

[00:04:48] Sean: She was like, I, that's not whole story. You should have those skills be a part of your family life at home.

[00:04:56] You should have those skills edify the people who are closest to you at home because you have been gifted those skills for a reason. What a better way to see your kids thrive, see your family thrive by using those skills at home. It, for everybody, it's different.

[00:05:15] Michael: Right.

[00:05:17] Sean: I, I was think, trying to think of examples. For me, filmmaking is my, maybe my, first skill on a piece of paper. But my boy is rounding that age where he's starting to get the concept of story and he's starting to get the concept of a movie or a show or something like that.

[00:05:36] Michael: Sure.

[00:05:38] Sean: And so a couple weeks ago we just made an, a short film. He got this little dancing skeleton from Target. And he set up all of his other stuffed animals and his Hot Wheels cars and stuff as an audience. And they all wanted to teach this skeleton how to dance. And so it was this story arc of he was really lonely at the beginning, and then he had his friends and, these two, I think it was a, it was two Hot Wheels cars, they saw him from a distance and they're like, "oh, that guy looks lonely. Let's go over there and teach him how to dance." And then it ended with everybody cheering and being happy, so, it wasn't necessarily "hey, let's teach him what kindness looks like." It wasn't necessarily a lesson. It was more just entering his world with the skills that I have.

[00:06:27] Michael: Right.

[00:06:27] Sean: A way to connect on his level. And, so for me, it was filmmaking works and I was like, man, I wonder what that would be for like an accountant. I don't know. Accountants are helpless to me. Just joking. But structure, numbers, how can you bring that into the family or writers or chefs?

[00:06:54] My, my wife loves to cook with my kids. She's really good at it, and she's really good at fellowship and community and bringing people together. And so she's taught him how to do that through bringing it home. So, the skills and the gifts that you have aren't just for the workplace.

[00:07:13] Michael: Right.

[00:07:14] Sean: Yeah. Profound. Profound for me.

[00:07:16] Michael: Yeah. That's such a interesting and important point, like work life doesn't necessarily have to be always separated from home life. Nor should work life necessarily, always have to be associated with home life, but you can find there's a balance there, right, that you found where you can take a particular part of what you do for work, but bring it home to help you extend your relationship with your son, right?

[00:07:47] So you're like, you are doing something that you find interesting creatively and you're showing your son why that is important to you, and why it might be interesting to you and allowing him to figure out on his own is that of interest to me?

[00:08:04] How, and many children want to be like their parents, and lots of boys wanna be like their dads.

[00:08:10] And so it's an easy way to emulate that when you show them, okay, this is what I do for a living, but maybe not necessarily so formally. You're not coming to him and be like, "okay, here's my agenda for the day. This is what I need to do to in order to record video." It's "okay, you have this new toy and you wanna tell a story around it, let's take this up another level instead of just living your own world, this is something we can do together. We can have more meaningful bond and more meaningful relationship around something that's also important to you.

[00:08:39] Right? It's a two way street where he's getting something from you, you're getting something from him, you're 'cause you're sharing what you like with him.

[00:08:45] So I find that really interesting, and I think it's really important. And, yes, it's probably easy to, if you're a creative, to be like, okay, here's something creative that we can do versus like an accountant. Yes, you can teach your children to balance a budget at a young age and that could be very useful.

[00:09:02] Sean: Yeah, totally.

[00:09:02] Michael: And right, if that's what you're good at or there are things just 'cause you're an accountant doesn't mean you don't have other skills that you use in the office that you or in your work that you can't bring home to your children. At the same time, maybe you don't want to. You don't have to, to do this, right? You don't have to bring your work home if you need that break, like you can have that break. The key here is finding what is that right balance between your work and your home. So I appreciate you sharing that story. It's really, interesting.

[00:09:35] Sean: Yeah. You're an entrepreneur. You own your own business. You've owned your own business for a while.

[00:09:40] Michael: Correct.

[00:09:40] Sean: Have you found bringing skills home to be like good for your family? Have you found doing that at all? Maybe on purpose or on accident?

[00:09:49] Michael: Yeah. I've definitely brought it home with my children and helped them try and start their own businesses over the years. And it's, to me, it's, I don't wanna force it on them, right? It's if they ask me or if they have an idea, can I extend that idea and bring some skills to the table of oh, okay, you, for example, my daughter designed a t-shirt a few years ago.

[00:10:17] She just, she liked to draw, and so she drew something I'm like, that would look good on a t-shirt. And so we put it on a t-shirt, and it looked good. And she said I want to make these for my friends. I want to get them for, I said, okay, why don't we design a little web store where you can sell your t-shirts, and let's upload them.

[00:10:35] And we did. And it was just a matter of her in that moment she thought it was the coolest thing ever.

[00:10:42] Six weeks later, did she remember that she was selling t-shirts? I'm like, probably not. Right? But it's something she remembers. She goes back to years later of "oh, I remember that time when I was seven years old and I designed a t-shirt and we sold some and it was cool and it was fun."

[00:10:56] And it's, it gives them some confidence, right? Like one of the many skills you hope to have your kids develop over the years is confidence. Not to the point of overconfidence, but just confidence that they can, they have the ability to do what they set out to to do if that's what they want. And my daughter was like, "okay, I have this cool thing that I designed, and I want to sell it. And you know what? I was able to do that. I wonder what else I can do." And from time to time she'll be like, oh, I want, we should try doing this. We should try doing this idea. And it's, so to me it's, I don't, it's not, so I try not to be overly hands-on.

[00:11:42] I don't wanna tell them, okay, this is how you have to do it.

[00:11:45] It's, I want 'em to explore it. And I will open up the, the channels for them to be able to explore of okay, so you have this idea, what are the next steps? Let me help you think through those next steps. Here are the questions you're gonna have to answer.

[00:12:01] But you do that at your own pace and on your own accord.

[00:12:05] And then we can come back and discuss and if it makes sense and we can, try and figure out what to do next. Right? But it's what I don't, what I tried to avoid doing, and I don't know if I did it right or not, but it was not to force anything.

[00:12:21] Sean: Totally.

[00:12:22] Michael: Right? Let the kids explore and develop at their own pace.

[00:12:27] Sean: Yeah.

[00:12:27] Michael: Right. And if I can just guide them in the right direction, or if they don't know where to start, then, I, that's when I step in and be like, "okay, here's where I think you should be thinking and here's what you do next."

[00:12:42] It's not a, you have to do this, we're gonna do A, B, and C today. Tomorrow we have to do D, E, and F. I let them decide what the timing is, what the structure is.

[00:12:52] Sean: Yeah.

[00:12:54] Michael: So I think you probably, I'd imagine as your son was filming this, his movie or his story that he was, you said it was his idea, but I imagine he was directing like at what pace he did this at and you weren't like, okay, now we need to cut the scene and

[00:13:15] Sean: Yeah.

[00:13:15] Michael: take it to the edit bay. I need to do these six things.

[00:13:18] Right? Even if you weren't thinking about it, you weren't taking total charge, you were giving him autonomy to explore his at his own pace.

[00:13:27] Sean: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, I didn't take the reins.

[00:13:31] Michael: Right.

[00:13:32] Sean: I was, I was his hands and feet in a way because he doesn't know how to press record on a camera. He probably does, but he doesn't know where to, we did it on the iPhone, so he doesn't know where to put the phone. He doesn't know what to do with all the different moves, et cetera, et cetera. But yeah, you're 100% right. I didn't overtake anything. I just let him go at his pace and explore a story and try to keep it to a minimum amount of time. We're not shooting for six hours.

[00:13:59] Michael: Right.

[00:14:00] Sean: But yeah, it was all in fun. It was all in exploration. It was all in, in just yeah, play.

[00:14:08] Michael: Yeah, exactly. And at the end of it, how'd your son feel? Was he excited, proud, disappointed?

[00:14:16] Sean: Oh, dude, he was over the moon. I had to cut it together. And I spent 30 minutes doing that. And then we played the movie, and he just, his eyes lit up. We we got the whole family and mom, his sister we were watching it on the bed. His eyes lit up and he was just, you could see, I don't know I could just feel like he was, gaining momentum.

[00:14:40] Michael: Yeah.

[00:14:41] Sean: His little mind was just exploring all these different opportunities.

[00:14:44] "I made that, I did that, and I did that with with all of my friends, all of my little toys." And, yeah, it was cool. It was really cool.

[00:14:53] Michael: Yeah. And I bet you must have the feeling you had to have been super positive as well.

[00:14:59] Sean: Oh, dude, weeping as I was cutting this together. He's so cute. Yeah, there, there was a moment where it was just like, this is really fun. And then he did some really silly things. He backed up into the frame at one point. So we kept that, and mom and I had a little chuckle 'cause it was a little cute moment.

[00:15:15] He doesn't know the significance of it, but,

[00:15:17] Michael: Right.

[00:15:18] Sean: We could see his personality coming out, and we could see the comedy coming forward. And so it was a cool, it was like, it was just a cool bonding moment between the entire family.

[00:15:27] Michael: That's awesome.

[00:15:28] Sean: My daughter, Emery, she's a year and a half, so she's not understanding anything, but she does see brother on the TV.

[00:15:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:15:35] Sean: And so there's still this yeah, there's this, certain bonding situation that came from it that's hard to put into words, but yeah it was just fun. It was just pure delight, I guess.

[00:15:49] Michael: Yep. And that's the best part of being a dad, right, is that those moments, right, those certain moments where something just clicks right. And you just, you see your child succeed in doing something or feel great about doing something, and it makes you feel good about it. And it's just, it brings this joy, this delight, as you mentioned, that just you can't replicate.

[00:16:16] And it's something super special. So, that's really cool. I could probably talk about this all day, but I think I wanna kind of change directions a little bit here. And let's talk about the work side of things.

[00:16:31] Sean: Yeah.

[00:16:32] Michael: For just a little bit. So you've moved between being in-house, freelance, and independent. How has fatherhood influenced which kind of work setup feels right for you now?

[00:16:45] Sean: Oof. There's a lot of key words in that sentence. It's, been a struggle for me to figure

[00:16:54] Michael: Sure.

[00:16:54] Sean: that one out. It's been a little bit of a struggle. Part of it is I'm very tuned into purpose.

[00:17:05] Michael: Yeah.

[00:17:05] Sean: And I feel like the work that I do should reflect some kind of purpose. Some type of honor. I'm very drawn to craft. I'm very drawn to mastery whether that's in art or design or food.

[00:17:26] Michael: Sure.

[00:17:27] Sean: I just really care about mastery and purpose.

[00:17:31] And so trying to find a place that holds that same kind of standard has been very hard. It's probably me. So, I've had a really hard time balancing what I care about with opportunities that are there.

[00:17:53] Michael: Right.

[00:17:55] Sean: So I'm still in the thick of that.

[00:17:57] Michael: Yeah.

[00:17:58] Sean: The last five years have been a little bit weird with employment, so the timeline I guess is before 2020, 2021, I was just freelance and independent.

[00:18:10] Michael: Okay.

[00:18:10] Sean: Around there, we had our son and I went in-house and in-house at a photography studio was not great. So, I went back to like freelance and then went into a production company. That turned out to be a little bit wonky as well. And around that time my mom passed away, and, she had, we had a little bit of a sordid past, so she had paranoid schizophrenia, so there's a lot of gunk in that story. But I realized on set that we were, we were shooting like three, a six day production split up into two phases, and so we were on the second phase, and I realized on that set after my mom passed away, it was, we shot the day after she did. I didn't tell anybody, but I realized that there wasn't a lot of like relationship or like a family mentality happening there. And so that was a real, like stark moment for me where it's, oh, the purpose that I feel and the things that I care about aren't necessarily represented in like a work structure, at least in the place that I'm at right now in production. This is as much a business as it is an art. And those things are oil and water. Art and commerce to me just they fight there. I don't think I've found a successful combination of those yet, and so I took a break from production and I went into carpentry of all things. So I flipped houses with my father-in-law on the side for three years and at that, after that production, I took a hiatus and went into carpentry. I went to a design build, and that also turned out to be not great. And then jumped to another in-house production doing photography, which was also not great. So there were four jobs in succession that turned out to be like stuff is happening here that just is not, not awesome.

[00:20:21] Michael: Right.

[00:20:22] Sean: There was money embezzlement, there was fraud, there was lying, there was HR meetings. There was a lot of stuff that was like, what is going on? I have terrible luck here.

[00:20:31] Michael: You've experienced a lot.

[00:20:33] Sean: Yeah, and, I have my responsibilities in some of the situations as well, so maybe they could have been better if I was a little bit more, more apt to being in those situations.

[00:20:46] Michael: Sure.

[00:20:46] Sean: But this last job that I had I was a creative director at a real estate company, so I was still in house. After two years, they sold to another real estate company, and so my position was eliminated.

[00:20:59] So I'm looking back over these last two years being in-house in a creative spectrum. I did everything from web design to video to the whole gamut. And it still has me feeling, I don't know if empty is the right word, but it didn't necessarily fulfill the purpose that I feel like I, I want to embody in my work.

[00:21:25] Michael: Sure.

[00:21:28] Sean: And so it's, yeah, it's been a struggle to find what that balance is.

[00:21:33] Michael: Yep.

[00:21:35] Sean: The documentary, and the work that I'm doing with ROAR, which is the organization, I never know what to call it, business organization, foundation, I don't know. It's a guy doing some stuff on the internet somewhere. That seems the most purposeful, that seems the most rich

[00:21:53] Michael: Sure.

[00:21:54] Sean: project that I've ever done. And so, currently, I'm in the thick of just figuring out, hey what, is that perfect concoction, that serum, that makes all of this make sense.

[00:22:07] Michael: Yeah, so it's really interesting 'cause you talk a lot about purpose, and, to me, it sounds like you found your purpose and now you're just sculpting it into what you want to be for you moving forward, right, and your purpose is to do meaningful work around being a dad or in addition to being a dad.

[00:22:36] And a lot of dads especially after a layoff or a career pause, you mentioned that you're, in your last job, the real estate company was bought out and jobs were eliminated, but you've still found your identity, and I think a lot of that struggle with tying their identity to a job title, especially if they haven't had one for a while or they just lost one.

[00:23:02] What helped you separate who you are from what you do?

[00:23:08] Sean: Yeah, that is a, that's a deep question there, sir.

[00:23:12] Michael: I'm trying.

[00:23:13] Sean: I, yeah, you're doing great.

[00:23:15] Michael: Thank you.

[00:23:16] Sean: You started off great. We're doing great in the middle. We're gonna finish strong here. I have found my identity, worth, self-worth through what I've done, what I do, I work forever.

[00:23:30] Michael: Sure.

[00:23:31] Sean: Forever and ever and ever and ever. That has led to a lot of depressive thoughts, a lot of self-deprecating attitude. For, if we're gonna be completely honest, I've thought I was a piece of for a very long time. Mostly because I felt like I was a failure. A failure in tons of aspects. Work has always been one of those major kind of mirrors, reflective surfaces for me. My money-making or money-spending decisions, have never have not always been the smartest. Buying guitars and too much coffee. And so I, I felt this guilt and this weight for a really long time of consumer debt that we built up. And so that kind of baggage, I've drug along to all of these different things that I do while trying to find purpose, while trying to find some appeasement in the things that I care about. All of that ties into this identity. All of that ties into this. Or it comes away from the work with this like heavy burden of you're not doing the thing, right? You're not doing the thing that you said you were trying to do. And, yeah, so I, I pulled identity from all of these wrong places for me personally, from a Christian, and that is really the place that I had to go back to the foundation of and figure out what my identity is. There was a book called Reset. It's by this guy. Oh, put it in the show notes. He's a pastor theologian from Scotland, I think. It, the book is cool if you're a Christian you should read it if you want to. If you're not, you should read it as well. It's cool. But he takes identity from this perspective of where do you start looking at yourself and how does that refract through these different stages, through these different lenses. I'm kind of paraphrasing 'cause he uses the metaphor of car bays, like a car repair bay. I think it's a little hokey, but I think of what's the first lens that you look at yourself through? If you are, if you subscribe to this Christian thing, you look at this lens or you look at yourself through this first lens of being saved, right? Of putting your trust in something that you can't prove. You can't taste, touch, hear, smell, see this thing. But it is, he is giving you a promise that he will take care of you on every aspect as long as you just come to him. In faith is tricky because it's, again, it's something that you, it's not tangible. Everything, the promise looks like a lie a lot of times, and you're asked to just believe I'm giving you an IOU. I'm telling you at the end of the week, I'm gonna give you a million dollars. You just gotta get through the end of the week.

[00:27:02] Michael: Yep.

[00:27:04] Sean: And so, for me, it was taking a step back and looking at my identity through that first lens of I'm being taken care of.

[00:27:11] Michael: Yep.

[00:27:15] Sean: Which was a completely, I don't know, a massive mind shift for me because I've never thought about it like that. I didn't grow up a Christian, so I became one in college. This was what, 2007? So a while ago. I've always figured I had to work to get value. I had to work, and I have to succeed to get worth. I have to get that worth to have an identity that matters.

[00:27:48] Michael: Right.

[00:27:48] Sean: And pulling out of this situation and looking at myself through this lens of, Hey, you're being taken care of. It's not you, it's me. To me, it was like, oh, that's a, that's wild. That's wild because now it's not on my back. Now it's not on what I do. It's how I show up. It's who I am. It's how I be.

[00:28:07] Michael: Yep.

[00:28:07] Sean: It's be instead of do. And so to understand identity from that perspective has given me a freedom from the burden of work, the burden of success or trial or trial or accolade or likes and comments and subscribes.

[00:28:33] Michael: Right.

[00:28:33] Sean: None of that matters.

[00:28:34] Michael: Right.

[00:28:35] Sean: None of that matters. It just doesn't.

[00:28:37] Michael: Yep.

[00:28:38] Sean: And if you're gonna show up, because you're gonna be there.

[00:28:41] Michael: Yeah, it's such a, first of all, I appreciate your openness, your honesty about finding your purpose 'cause I think for a lot of dads, the, it would be great if purpose just showed up and it was just like right there. It was like, okay, that's my purpose. I'm done. Right? If it were that easy,

[00:29:01] Sean: Yep.

[00:29:02] Michael: But I think what you demonstrate is that purpose, it's a journey. Like it takes time, it takes experience to find your purpose, and it's never too late to find your purpose. You might find your purpose early in life. You might find it a little bit later in life. It doesn't really matter. The matter is just pursuing that purpose for you so that you can get that balance, right, because yeah, work is not the end all, be all, like you said, but we all, we still need to work. We still need to earn a living, but that work can be meaningful.

[00:29:36] Sean: Yeah.

[00:29:37] Michael: It doesn't necessarily have to be whatever it is that is prescribed to us today. It can be something that we can pursue, something that is more meaningful to us, but still allows us to be good dads.

[00:29:50] And to find your identity, you find your purpose and realize that yeah, you can have both, right?

[00:29:59] Like you can for you, like you wanna be creative, you can do creative work, you can do this documentary, and you can do something creative with your family, right? You can have it, you can have the whole thing that you want, both work and family, that kind of makes you feel whole, but you have to put in the work to do it, right? What you said it demonstrates like, yeah, you have to want to pursue that, but you can do it.

[00:30:28] And you are clearly a great case study in finding what your identity is and pursuing that. And, yeah, it's not gonna be linear, it's not gonna be a straight line all the time. Like you did freelance work, you did in-house work, you did some freelance work again, right? Now you're doing a documentary like you will, the chart is not just up into the right all the time, right? But you will get to the point or the place that you want to be when you're pursuing that balance, you're pursuing that purpose. So, I appreciate you sharing that story because I think there's just, there's a lot for us dads to, to take from that. That we all have our own identities, our own purpose, and we just have to find what's right for us.

[00:31:11] And yeah, it's easier said than done. It takes time, it takes experience, but it doesn't really matter where you are today, I don't think. I don't think, even if you're in a job you can't stand, and we're in an economy where it's impossible to find another job, that doesn't mean you can't find meaningful work.

[00:31:27] And maybe it's outside of what you're currently doing. Maybe it's a little bit in a different direction. It doesn't mean you can't also be there for your children. You can't build those relationships. You can't have those moments where you're all sitting on the couch, sitting in bed watching that film that your 4-year-old just made, right?

[00:31:44] You can still do that stuff, even if the work's not going the way you want it to right now. Like you, you might be leaning a little bit more towards the family side while you try to figure out the work side. Then that's okay, right? But your story just, it's such a great demonstration of what you can achieve that you can find that balance between what you enjoy doing and being there for your children, being active, being present, being available, so I, I appreciate you, you sharing that with us. Which, which kind of leads me to, I wanna talk a little bit more about ROAR. When you started ROAR, what kind of fear or resistance did you have to push through to kinda get that off the ground?

[00:32:32] Sean: Yeah. A lot of imposter syndrome. A lot of imposter syndrome. Starting something, putting yourself out there in, in something that you really care about. It always, or often, comes with this idea that you're not good enough to do the thing that you're trying to set out to do. I assume that's a similar feeling across every job. But I was wondering if what I was doing would resonate. I was wondering if I was doing anything that had not nuance to it that was worthwhile. Am I going to say anything that really matters? Am I going to add something to the conversation that's not being said somewhere else? I, and as a dad, like I'm imperfect as it, as they come. So, does anything I have to say, am I such a hypocrite that what I'm gonna put out is just gonna reveal me to be the piece of that I've always thought I was and so the tension that I held in the creating was just, I, I love Stephen King.

[00:33:54] Stephen King is my favorite author, dare I say that. There's a couple of them. He's one of my favorites. I wasn't a big reader growing up, but my buddy got me into a lot of King's work and it has yet changed my life. I got his book on writing, and one of the things that he, you know, a big theme of what he does with his work and his writing is that he writes what moved him. Write what moves you is a line that he says in there. And to me it was just like, okay, it's not about being the best. It's not about being the most popular. It's not about being the voice that everybody in the world looks to for something like this. The point is to take what you know, put it together, and present it in an honest way that moves you. I think the right people will find that.

[00:35:02] Michael: Yep.

[00:35:03] Sean: I think the people who are supposed to hear messages like that will hear those messages. With ROAR it's, I started it 'cause I had a desire to explore what fatherhood meant because my, my dad was not an awesome dad. As I started this project, so part of the documentary is exploring my relationship with him. He was not a perfect dad. He was a single father. So my, my, as I said earlier, my mom had paranoid schizophrenia. They split when I was two. I was an only child. So was me and him growing up. He got custody when I was young. I don't even remember when. He was imperfect growing up. I have felt that imperfection now as a 37, 6-year-old.

[00:35:54] And the ways that I, deal with situations, the ways that I grapple with stuff that doesn't work. I can feel it in here the way that I was raised and how that's impacting my responses to those things. And so with ROAR, it was a big, I was like, I just want to explore that. I want to explore that relationship from father and son.

[00:36:12] Father and his father and the Lord. And that's that's what the documentary is about. So when I started ROAR, it was really just a decision to show up to explore those types of relationships. Put out there what I know and see who might connect. It's taken a while to figure out the the phrase that I would use and I said earlier, the right people will see it.

[00:36:49] Michael: Right.

[00:36:49] Sean: To me, ROAR is this exploration for fathers who feel like they fell through the cracks, right?

[00:36:55] Michael: Yep.

[00:36:56] Sean: It's not necessarily like here's how to be a dad. It's more Hey, like here's the stuff that I think about. Here's the stuff that I ruminate on. Here's the stuff that has set me up to be the person I am today.

[00:37:10] Michael: Yep.

[00:37:11] Sean: Maybe you too, and here's the ways that I've dealt with it. Maybe you too. I don't know.

[00:37:19] Michael: Love the concept behind it or the idea behind it and how personal you make it, but still make it relatable is super interesting, right? Because it's, I think a lot of times when I'm reading a biography or I'm watching a biopic, it's okay, are they being, if it's an autobiography, are they being it's a little self-centered.

[00:37:46] It's like, how relatable can I possibly be to, to this?

[00:37:51] I think the direction you're going with this is just it's, obviously I'm interested in it. I'm a dad, and I find I'm talking about balancing life as a dad, like that is what this podcast is all about, right? So,

[00:38:08] Sean: Right.

[00:38:08] Michael: You're taking it from a different angle, but it's super interesting that you can make it relatable,

[00:38:14] Sean: Yeah.

[00:38:15] Michael: but still very personal, which I'm, I wonder, so, you're producing this documentary, right and it's got, it's about your relationship with your father, but it's also got your kids, like your relationship to your kids involved in it. How do you keep that from turning into pressure to being like the perfect dad both on and off camera?

[00:38:41] Sean: Are you reading my journal?

[00:38:43] Michael: I'm not, but...

[00:38:45] Sean: So, I, was thinking about that word, perfect. I've thought about it a lot, but more recently in the past couple days, like what. Perfect seems like a cuss word. There's a lot of songs on the radio that tell you that you're perfect just the way you are.

[00:39:04] Or,

[00:39:04] Michael: Right,

[00:39:05] Sean: I was reading, my wife's body wash has a sugar note on it and it says, we think you're great just the way you are. It's oh, cool. What if they're murdering people? Are they great?

[00:39:17] Michael: Right.

[00:39:18] Sean: Whatever. So perfect just feels like a cuss word these days,

[00:39:22] Michael: Yep.

[00:39:23] Sean: Because it's a powerful word.

[00:39:25] It holds a lot of power to build up and to tear people down. It, for my entire life, it was be perfect in some sort of which way. And that's where I got my value and my self worth from is I'm not perfect. And so that shone this light on my imperfections and tore me down. But, I think, maybe this comes from just my joy in mastery and watching the people who are masters do their work, like Rembrandt. His artwork is so masterful and so perfect, close to perfect as possible. He wouldn't, he probably wouldn't say that; a lot of people probably would. I would be one of them. I see the pursuit of perfection not as a bad thing. Pursue perfect knowing you're not going to be, right? And so a reframing of that word, a reframing of that approach, I think for me in ROAR is I want to be the perfect dad. I want to be the perfect husband. I want to be the perfect good that I can possibly be. I'm not gonna do it. I'm not gonna do it. I've found forgiveness in a lot of the ways that I misstep to be healing in that word, in that attempt of being perfect. And I felt a lot of grace and opportunity in the places that I am not perfect. Good Inside is a book that kind of deals with parenthood. But she explores when you fail with your kids, when you react or when you respond in a way that is detrimental to them or negative in a way. We often take that as a, a period.

[00:41:39] Michael: Yep.

[00:41:40] Sean: It's the, it's you did this, bam you were wrong. But it's a comma. I don't think she uses this analogy, but I'm going to, there's another part to that. There's a part of going to your kids and asking for forgiveness and mending the relationship,

[00:41:58] Michael: Yep.

[00:41:59] Sean: right? Which is another way of reframing that idea of perfection. You messed up, but there's an opportunity here that teaches them how to, show up when you do mess up.

[00:42:10] Michael: Yep.

[00:42:11] Sean: How to be a dad when you're imperfect. How to close the gap of the relationship, get closer and stronger as a bond in forgiveness and not being perfect. Yeah, and so with this project, it's just a lot of learning how to forgive and learning how to abide in that idea of, I'm gonna pursue this with all my might as good as I possibly can. I'm going to mess up over and over again, over and over again. Continually. The end. And I left that line hanging there.

[00:42:54] Michael: No, I get it. It's, you can strive to be perfect and that's okay to strive for that. Just know that you're not going to be, and that's okay, right? Like it's not an either or.

[00:43:07] Right. It's you can, it's not either you're perfect or you're not. It's, you're somewhere in the realm.

[00:43:17] You're trying to achieve the best that you can achieve for you and those you care about most.

[00:43:25] And similar to perfection, you have ambition, right? Like you are trying to, as you trying to strive for perfection, you are also striving to do the most that you can, right? And I think for a lot of dads that they, it becomes an either or for them. It's either I choose ambition at work, or I choose time at home.

[00:43:54] Sean: Yeah.

[00:43:54] Michael: And, I'm not necessarily sure it is an either or. I don't think it, I think it's more like perfection where it's neither, you're somewhere in the realm, and it's finding that right balance. I'm wondering, what's your take on ambition after becoming a parent? Does it change? Does it evolve? Is it like where do you think you should be on the ambition curve?

[00:44:19] Sean: The desire doesn't dissolve at all. The time does. Man, there's, it almost seems like there's no time when you have kids. So, if you don't have kids, you're probably not listening to this podcast, but soak it as much as you possibly can in the things that you want to do. The ambition is still very strong with me. It just has to find pockets. I, I heard dads talk about how their time management skills just exploded when they had kids 'cause they just really needed to figure out the best times to do the things that they cared about. I didn't get it until I had a couple kids. I didn't get it until they were old enough to where it was like, oh, you're taking over my entire day. When they leave, I have 30 minutes of cleanup. It's, I didn't account for that.

[00:45:18] Michael: Right.

[00:45:19] Sean: You know, there's a lot of misnomers that you're just, you become aware of as time goes on and you have these little ones. I think ambition just percolates more.

[00:45:34] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:35] Sean: It, it steeps in a tea of, or in a soup of, wants and desires.

[00:45:42] Michael: Yeah.

[00:45:44] Sean: I've also found that it's a great way to distill what is really valuable and what's worthwhile to do. A lot of ambition is fantastic. But thrown to the wind, I think that's, it's wasted. I've done a lot of stuff that just didn't return whatever was supposed to return, money or time or whatever it was, but now I feel like I'm a little bit more intentional with the ambitions that I have, with the dreams that I have. I'm not trying to be John Mayer anymore, which is great.

[00:46:27] Michael: Yep.

[00:46:28] Sean: I used to want to be out playing music a lot, and, it's oh, cool. That was fun. That was fun to exercise and build that skill, but I can see where that desire was more negative than it was something positive in light of circumstance. Yeah, I love your point on balance. I love that, that picture of just being somewhere in the realm of all of these things because I think I'm just more aware of where I am in the realm of those things more. But you're your story, and maybe you've shared it on the other shows or the other episodes at this point, but you really felt that balance of trying to hold a business together while also being a dad.

[00:47:22] What does this do? What does, how does this resonate for you?

[00:47:28] Michael: You're like preaching to the choir here to me. Right. It's the, what's important to me changed when my kids were born and priorities shifted, and I think it's probably pretty normal to happen, right? Like now I'm responsible for not just my own life and, but now I'm responsible for a family

[00:47:59] Sean: Yeah.

[00:47:59] Michael: And not just responsible financially, but responsible for, in terms of being human, of being emotional support, teaching kids how to do things, being there when things are tough and when things are good, and being present and being active. And, it's so easy to want to, for me, it was so easy to want to just be like, okay, I don't need to have this work ambition anymore. I just want to spend all my time doing fun things with the kids.

[00:48:33] Sean: Yeah.

[00:48:34] Michael: But that's not a really, that's not a sustainable model either.

[00:48:37] Not just financially, but also emotionally.

[00:48:41] Like I am still human. I still have my own needs and desires and wants and things that I want to achieve, but becoming a father showed me that, okay, I have to reprioritize.

[00:48:57] And it's a struggle to find that balance, right? I was running my own business, I was traveling, and I was taking care of two kids, and I didn't have the flexibility I had before.

[00:49:11] And it was like, okay, what's gonna get the priority here? And for me it was the kids. So, I stopped traveling. I changed the way I run my business.

[00:49:19] And I was okay with that. And I still am. I still think I made the right decision because, for me, at the end of the day, my ambition is to leave this legacy of setting up those around me for that I care about for success.

[00:49:40] So my kids, my friends, my family, like I want to be, what I wanna leave in this world is people better off. And I can't do that for millions of people, but I can do it for that small circle around me. I think I can point them in the right direction a little bit. I can give them a support that they need when they need it.

[00:50:00] I can be there as a sounding board. And it all comes back to just being active, being present, being available. And it doesn't have to be available twenty-four-seven,

[00:50:12] Sean: Yeah.

[00:50:13] Michael: But it means I can get back to 'em in a timely manner. I can be there for them, for important milestones, for important events, that I can have those conversations with them in a car ride going somewhere, dropping 'em off at a practice or a recital or whatever it might be.

[00:50:29] To me the best moments, the most important moments, are the ones in the car.

[00:50:33] Sean: Yeah.

[00:50:33] Michael: It could be like a 15 minute drive that drops somebody off at practice, but it's like you never know what's gonna come up in conversation.

[00:50:40] Right? And so that's the balance I try to seek. And so for me, my ambition today as a 46-year-old, it was very different 20 years ago as a 26-year-old, right?

[00:50:52] Sean: Yeah.

[00:50:52] Michael: Very different ambitions. If you asked me when I was 26 what my ambitions were, it was to be very successful in business.

[00:50:59] Sean: Yeah.

[00:51:00] Michael: Today as a 46-year-old, my ambition is to make the people around me better and to support them to be better.

[00:51:08] So, yeah, I think what you say, it resonates with me completely.

[00:51:14] Sean: What you just said, I have a question on 'cause

[00:51:16] Michael: sure.

[00:51:16] Sean: I love what I love that you at 46 has different ambitions than you at 26. You at 46, you know that the point is to make those better around you. You at 26 wanted to be successful in business. Should you at 26 know the thing at 46 or do you think what you know at 46 would've been important at 26 at all?

[00:51:38] Michael: I don't think as a 26-year-old, I could know that, what I know now at 46.

[00:51:43] I think it's all comes down to experience, right? And so I don't think that without being a father, I would know what my ambitions today would be as a father.

[00:51:57] The only way to do that is to live it, right? There's that saying, fake it till you make it, right, of just pretend and make yourself sound bigger than you are just to get those first sales or get whatever it is that you're going after. You can't fake being a father. Not successfully, I don't think, right, but you can live it. And when you live it, you start to learn this is what works.

[00:52:21] This is what doesn't work. And for me, I don't think as a 26-year-old, yeah, I had a niece, a little niece, but and, she was the world to me, and she still is. Like I, I still talk to my niece all the time and I, she's a very important person. But I didn't know then that my ambitions would change, that I wanted to support those around me more than I was at 26.

[00:52:44] That's not to say I was selfish at 26. I still tried to be there for my friends and family. It's just I didn't realize my purpose, my ambition, to what I want to achieve was there at four that I have at 46. I didn't realize that even existed.

[00:52:59] Sean: Yeah.

[00:53:00] Michael: And you don't know that something exists until you experience it.

[00:53:03] Sean: Yeah.

[00:53:04] Michael: Right? Like you could tell me that, that flying to the moon is the coolest thing ever, and yet I, think it would be the coolest thing ever to fly to the moon, but I don't really know what it's like to go to the moon because I've never been there.

[00:53:18] Sean: Yep.

[00:53:19] Michael: Right. But I know what it's like to drive my kids to practice and they tell me about something that happened at school, or they tell me about something they, they read about and that in the moment it was very important to them.

[00:53:38] So that's important to me, right? So I know what that is like, and I know I love that. I think I would like going to the moon. It would probably scare me, but I think I love it, but I don't know. And so I think that to answer your question, and this is probably the most long-winded answer to, which would've been pretty, pretty simple answer was at 26, I don't know what it was like to be a father of two.

[00:54:00] Sean: Yeah.

[00:54:01] Michael: I didn't know what it was like to drive my kids to practices, to lessons, to whatever. I didn't know what it was gonna be like having those conversations in the car.

[00:54:09] Sean: Yeah.

[00:54:10] Michael: And, yeah I, think that 26-year-old me would never be able to answer what 46-year-old me can answer today. All right. So one more question for you before we wrap up with the speed round. You've talked about finding what you're really ambitious about, what makes you come alive. And for dads that are listening now, what signs do you think they should look for that are, that they're on the right path, even if the results aren't there yet?

[00:54:41] Sean: If they find out, let me know.

[00:54:44] Michael: That's fair.

[00:54:45] Sean: I keep telling people that ask me what I'm doing right now 'cause they're all wondering if I'm, if I have a job. And the thing that I keep coming around to is I'm, yeah, I'm applying for all these jobs whatever. I'm doing this thing with ROAR.

[00:55:02] I have this documentary that I'm working on the side of it. I'm, writing a, a, devotional book. These are two projects that I feel convicted about finishing different than anything else I've ever done before. Whereas I really wanted to do 'em. I really wanted to play on stage. I really wanted to make some cool videos so I could put out the frames on Instagram.

[00:55:27] I really wanted to do whatever it was.

[00:55:29] Michael: Right.

[00:55:29] Sean: But these two things, I feel like if I don't, if I don't finish them, I'm doing something wrong. If I don't finish them, not necessarily shame on me, but hey dude you need to finish these. Completely different feeling, completely different. And so I would just pay attention to what lights you up.

[00:56:03] Michael: Yes.

[00:56:03] Sean: I would pay attention. There's a difference between like desire and purpose. They're not necessarily, what's the phrase? Like a square is a rectangle. Rectangle is not a square. So, purpose is desirable, but desire is not purpose necessarily, right? Pay attention to what lights you on fire. Pay attention to what gets you excited. That could be direction. That could be, the sign that you need to go do something. Pay attention to what just doesn't leave your mind at night.

[00:56:56] Michael: Yep.

[00:56:57] Sean: When you're falling asleep and the things are coming here and, and there's all these I gotta pay these bills and I gotta do this. But there's this one thing that I really enjoy, that I really feel called and drawn to. I think there's a lot of moments subconsciously that happened for me. It, it's more a whiff of baking that comes on the air and just comes past me, and it's oh I know that smell. I know what that is. It's this effervescence that, that I'm just familiar with. And those moments that just catch me off guard, it's oh, that's something that's important. And so I think if you're able to open yourself up to just little magic moments like that, be on the lookout for 'em, I think there'll be direction, there'll be signs that you're on the right path. If you hate what you're doing, take that as a sign as well.

[00:57:57] Michael: Yep.

[00:57:57] Sean: If you're going home and screaming at the kids and screaming at your wife or just screaming at anybody on that, people on the road, something's happening inside. Something's happening that yet you need to dig into and, and figure out.

[00:58:16] Michael: Yep. I don't think I could nod any harder. I couldn't agree with you more.

[00:58:20] Sean: Yeah. Why is everything shaking?

[00:58:25] Michael: Right. I just pulled a muscle in my neck. I don't know.

[00:58:28] Sean: Yeah, that's right.

[00:58:28] Michael: Yeah, no, I completely agree with what you're saying. It's really profound that sometimes it's hard to recognize that what is right for you, what's important to you, is what interests you.

[00:58:43] Right?

[00:58:44] Sean: Yeah.

[00:58:45] Michael: And everybody wants to do what they love. That's the ultimate goal is to do that.

[00:58:50] But it's so easy to lose sight in the day to day, in the minutia, like trying to just get through another day.

[00:58:58] You start to lose connection with what's interesting to you, what's important to you, so, I'm glad you brought that to light. That's very interesting. All right. So we've had a pretty serious discussion here, but I wanna flip things on their head.

[00:59:15] Let's jump into the speed round. Five quick questions. Really have nothing to do with anything we talked about, but let's have some fun with it. You ready?

[00:59:23] Sean: Cool.

[00:59:23] Michael: What's the first Kids show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:59:26] Sean: Bluey.

[00:59:27] Michael: Bluey.

[00:59:28] Sean: Bluey has some sick riffs in it, man. They are good at music. Yeah.

[00:59:32] Michael: Yeah. Good at a lot of things, I think.

[00:59:34] Sean: Yeah, for sure.

[00:59:35] Michael: Yeah.

[00:59:36] Sean: Yeah. Bluey is the one.

[00:59:38] Michael: Awesome. All right. What was your very first job?

[00:59:41] Sean: My very first job. Red Hot and Blue Pit Barbecue. I got that job because I had a crush on the girl that was the, the hostess, and I was not good at that job.

[00:59:53] Michael: you there?

[00:59:53] Sean: To go. I was the to-go guy. And I liked it because I could go in the kitchen, and I would steal like scoops of banana pudding from the fridge. But I remember, I know these are supposed to be speed rounds, but you triggered a memory.

[01:00:11] Michael: Go for it.

[01:00:13] Sean: I, I was on the line 'cause I was helping with I don't know if we closed to go or something. I don't know. Anyways, we would do pulled pork sandwiches, bun, pulled pork, like the lettuce, whatever, sauce, and then bun. This one didn't want the lettuce, but I smashed it on there and I looked at the ticket and I was like, oh, and scraped it all off. And my manager was standing next to me with this face that I'll never, ever forget. It was this like utter con-, and this was like a manager that came over from another store.

[01:00:47] Michael: Yep.

[01:00:47] Sean: And he was just staring at me, like, what? Are you real right now? Oh man. So

[01:00:56] Michael: That's funny.

[01:00:57] Sean: Yeah, Memphis pit barbecue. Doesn't exist now, but good food.

[01:01:01] Michael: Excellent. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler sized T-Rex or a T-Rex sized toddler?

[01:01:09] Sean: I feel like they're the same thing. A T-Rex. Toddler sized T-Rex?

[01:01:19] Michael: Toddler sized T-Rex? Okay. Sounds, to me that's a more dangerous one.

[01:01:25] Sean: Well.

[01:01:26] Michael: Right? But the more interesting one.

[01:01:28] Sean: You don't know my toddlers man.

[01:01:31] Michael: That's fair. That's fair. All right. What's your go-to karaoke song?

[01:01:35] Sean: Oh man. I hate karaoke. I don't do karaoke.

[01:01:38] So silence and walk out the door and hide in a corner somewhere.

[01:01:44] Michael: So even if you were forced to pick one, you still wanna pick a song?

[01:01:47] Sean: I did it one time, and I did a Jason Mraz song and I feel like if I went up and did karaoke it would be one of those oh, I didn't know he knew how to sing. And I'd try to blow people's minds. But then I think My Humps would be another good one.

[01:02:03] Michael: Yep.

[01:02:03] Sean: Baby Got Back or bring it back to the nineties somewhere.

[01:02:08] Yeah. I don't know. Get a couple drinks in me. We'll do this question again.

[01:02:13] Michael: Fair enough. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, your briefcase, or your pockets?

[01:02:19] Sean: Oh, I am using it right now. It's this computer, it's this computer stand, it's called a Roost Stand. It's this portable like stand that gets the laps 'cause I do a lot of work in coffee shops. I got it 'cause my neck hurt and my back was out of, you know alignment 'cause I stare and do this all day. But I'll go into coffee shops and pull it out and it pops up and then I put my computer on and I've had hundreds of people ask me what this thing is. So, it's weird to other people. I love it, but it's, probably weirder things in my bag, but...

[01:02:56] Michael: oh, that's cool. I like that. I'll have to put that in the show notes. I'll have to check that out myself.

[01:03:01] Sean: Roost without the er. It's 70 bucks, but I've had it for six years, and it's still brand new, so worth it. Worth it 100%.

[01:03:06] Michael: Awesome. Very cool. Sean, before we wrap up, I know you're doing some really cool stuff with ROAR right now, your upcoming documentary, Silly Cannonballs. Where can listeners follow your journey, connect with you, get involved with what you're building?

[01:03:20] Sean: Yeah, everything is at roardads.com. I don't have any social media, so I have a LinkedIn. You can find me on there. I don't even know what it is, LinkedIn, Sean Waldron Creative or something like that. But I'm always up for a conversation. Emails are great. sean@roardads.com. That's pretty much it.

[01:03:42] Michael: Awesome. Thank you again, Sean. Appreciate you joining us and for bringing all this honesty to the conversation today. You really opened up about your creativity, your identity, your purpose and that balance that so many dads are trying to find. So I appreciate that. Thank you.

[01:03:59] And if you enjoyed this episode, make sure to check out and subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter at gaptogig.com.

[01:04:05] That's where I share weekly stories, tools, and inspiration to help dads relaunch and redesign their careers. That's it for this episode. Remember, your career is just one part of your story and it's never too late to write the next chapter.

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