Alan Lazaros on Meaningful Work, Work-Life Balance, and Living from the Inside Out

0:00 Alan: You are so focused on looking good rather than getting better Michael: Right. Alan: That you actually aren't looking good eventually because you're not getting better. I would much rather you spend the next decade working on getting better in real life, and then let that ripple out into your reputation and your Instagram and your podcast and whatever than the opposite, because eventually you get stuck and you have to hide. Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here, we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention.

0:40 I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today's guest is Alan Lazaros, founder and CEO of Next Level University. Alan's story is shaped by two defining moments: losing his father in a car accident at age two, and then surviving a nearly fatal accident himself at 26. From the outside, he was doing everything right: education, corporate success, checking all the boxes, but internally, something wasn't lining up. That search for meaning led him deep into personal growth, and eventually to building one of the most listened to personal development podcasts in the world with millions of downloads across more than 180 countries. Alan, I'm excited to chat with you today. Welcome to the show. I'm really glad you're here. Alan: Thank you for having me. Michael: My pleasure. Alan: The first thing I wanna start with is just gratitude because the 21st century is very noisy, Michael: Yes.

1:24 Alan: and I believe that what you pay attention to is dictating the majority of your future. So, thank you for having me. I appreciate it, and I will not waste a second of anyone's time. Michael: Appreciate that. So, your story includes both early loss and a major wake up call in adulthood. And before we kind of talk about the tactics or the balance of it all, I wanna start with how those experiences shape the way you think about work and purpose and the kind of life that you're trying to build. So, when you look back at your life before that accident at 26, what did success mean to you then? And how did that definition sort of change afterwards? Alan: Yeah, so I did the traditional path. I know you have a lot of US-based listeners, so they'll resonate with this.

2:06 So I was born and raised in Massachusetts. 1988 I was born, and I did the preschool, kindergarten, elementary school, middle school, high school, college, corporate road. Michael: Sure. Alan: And my definition of success, so my birth father you mentioned passed away when I was two, so it was 1991. He was 28 years old. Fast forward, so I had a stepfather named steve Lazaros from age three to 14, from 1992 to the early two thousands, and he worked for a company called Agfa, A-G-F-A. They did hospital computers during the dot-com era. And so from the outside looking in, things looked really good. We had, you know, boats and ski trips and we had a yacht and lived on a lake and all kinds of stuff, but my mom and stepdad did not get along, and that's a polite way to put it.

2:54 Michael: Sure. Alan: So, from the inside out, it was not good. Stepdad left, took his entire extended family with him. And never seen or spoken to a single one of them since. Michael: Wow. Alan: And we didn't really associate with the McCorkels anymore, my birth father's side. Same year mom gets in a fight with my Aunt Sandy. We get kind of ostracized from her side of the family, so I kind of lost three families by the time I was 14. Michael: Wow. Alan: Didn't know any of this at the time, but the point to answer your original question, what success looks like to me, when my stepdad left, he took 95% of the income with him. He got the yacht and the apartment building. We get the house and the dog, and we went from sort of boats and ski trips to now I get free lunch at school 'cause our income is so low.

3:38 My mom trades in her BMW for a little Honda Civic. I'm, I'm, you know, we don't have cable. We're not gonna starve by any means. But how do we keep the house in the family? No trust fund, no dad, no generational wealth. We're in some trouble here. And the most important part of that was I was at that point a very promising student and I wanted to go to WPI, Worcester Polytechnic Institute. It's like a mini MIT in Massachusetts, and it was $50,000 a year. And this is back then. Michael: Right. Alan: So, I went from my hope I get in to, even if I do get in, I can't go 'cause we can't afford it. Michael: Right. Alan: So, my point of this is I had two trauma responses when my stepdad left. In hindsight, I didn't know this at the time. There's fight, flight, freeze, and fawn.

4:20 Fawn is the one most people don't know about. That's the one I chose. Socially, it was fawn, appease, appease, appease, fit in, fit in, fit in. Don't lose any more friends and family. Don't lose any more friends and family. Don't lose any more friends and family. Michael: Sure. Alan: But behind the scenes when no one was around, it was fight. It was aim higher, work harder, get smarter, prove myself. Achieve, achieve, achieve. So, I got straight A's in high school. I got my computer engineering degree at WPI. I got in. I got all the scholarships and financial aid I possibly could. I got my master's in business and then I was in corporate and I, I rose in corporate very quickly. I went from basically 65k a year back then as an engineer, product engineer, all the way to almost 200 grand a year very quickly.

5:00 And then I got in my car accident. So, I was 26. Head on collision. My fault. I was supposed to yield and didn't. Back in 2015, this 11 years ago. And that was sort of the second chance my dad never got. So, what success meant to me before that was money and achievement and significance and basically the certainty and security that comes from keeping the house in the family and like taking care of my family. After 26, it shifted completely because this is sort of the second chance my dad never got, Michael: Right.

5:43 Alan: And that's when I found self-improvement, personal growth, and personal development. And that's when I reevaluated my existence and just kind of looked at my life and rewatched the movie of my own life, and I realized I'm living this life from the outside in rather than the inside out. And, so, then my life became dedicated to, I started a company back then called Alan Lazaros, LLC. I wanted to be an inspirational, motivational, and educational speaker. And my motto was what you'll never learn in school, but desperately need to know because that's the kicker. I was a straight-A student. I got what's called the President's Award. It's behind me, signed by George W. Bush. It means you get straight A's through all report cards, 16 report cards straight.

6:26 Four years straight. All of high school. I graduated, you know, the top in my class. Not the very top, but close to the top. And why didn't I learn anything about self-improvement or personal growth or personal development? Why didn't I learn habits and goal setting and productivity and all these things? Courage, humility, vulnerability, character, virtue, time management. Where were these courses? Michael: Right. Alan: Finance. Michael: Yep. Alan: And so I dedicated my life from that moment on what success means to me now is, and you mentioned, I appreciate it, the sort of podcast, Next Level University, all the stuff.

7:06 Michael: Right. Alan: I coach 28 business owners now and we produce over 80 podcasts now. So. My new success definition is reaching my full potential and helping others do the same through personal development, self-improvement, and personal growth. Michael: Right. Alan: Not just external achievement. External achievement too, Michael: Yeah. Alan: but external achievement as a byproduct of who you become rather than external achievement at the expense of your core values or at the expense of who you are. Michael: Right. Yeah, it's an incredible story. And not one that I think a lot of people have experienced in full, right? There have been people who have been in car accidents, there have been people who have lost a parent.

7:51 There have been people who've had, you know, difficult parental relationships or witnessed difficult parental relationships. But you kind of had 'em all, right, and they're all sandwiched within not a long period of time, you know, Alan: Yeah. Michael: within two, two and a half decades. What really jumps out at me is you said that after your car accident, that the first thing that came outta your mouth was you got the second chance that your dad never got. Alan: Hundred percent. Yep. Michael: You dealt with something tragic when you were young and that happened to you in a different way as an adult, and your response at that point was, I have another chance.

8:34 Alan: Mm-hmm. Michael: Right? Like you could have been like, I'm cursed. This is not gonna work. I'm just gonna keep doing what I'm doing. Or like, I already got a solid job. This is it. Alan: Yeah. Michael: That's fine, but you said you saw your a second chance in yourself Alan: Mm-hmm. Michael: and then you took advantage of it, right? Like, you could say the right things, but then not do it. Alan: Yep. Michael: Right, and, so to me, it was so interesting and inspiring is that you didn't just give up each time. Each time you just dealt with what was in front of you and kept moving forward and kept trying to get better. So, even when you were in high school and things changed for you, and you weren't sure how you were gonna get to college, well, you just kept working at it and working at it, you kept taking the steps, right?

9:16 And it wasn't just like, oh, I'm going to just kind of like, I'm not gonna be able to get into college, or I'm gonna be able to get into college. I'm not gonna be able to afford it, so I might as well just coast. No, you Alan: Yeah. Michael: just, you doubled down on putting in the work, putting in the effort knowing that there's always still another opportunity in front of you, right? Alan: Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that. And I, I'm 37 now and I co-, now I've coached. I have a, I call it my magic number: 6,913 coaching sessions. I update it every day. I track it every day. I've been tracking it for 11 years, and so almost 7,000 hours of one-on-one coaching with people from all different industries, all different countries all over the world, New Zealand, Canada, you name it, and what I've come to understand, and this is challenging to share, 'cause I think it comes off pretentious, Michael: Sure.

10:06 Alan: I definitely realize how unique that is now. Michael: Mm-hmm. Alan: Because there's something called an ACE score, Adverse Childhood Experiences, and I had a very high ACE score. I had a very challenging childhood. Statistically speaking, it was like really, really, really challenging. There was some good things if anyone were listening from my childhood, there were some good things, Michael: Right. Alan: but for the most part, it was mostly pain and suffering. Michael: Yeah. Alan: And I think you hit the nail on the head there with, I didn't know this consciously, but I had high self-efficacy. High self-efficacy is the psychological term for self-belief. And what self-efficacy means is your, your mindset unconsciously and subconsciously.

10:49 Like I didn't consciously decide, okay, I'm gonna aim higher, work harder, and get smarter. I just had this insatiable desire to climb out of the dark holes, and I do realize how weird that is now. I didn't know how weird that was because I would see people who I thought had tremendous potential that squandered it. Michael: Right. Alan: And to be honest with you, I think I squandered my potential too. I, I, I'm not joking. I'm, I'm, let me, let me share the two sides of this coin. Michael: Sure. Alan: I drank too much and too often. I had high school friends and college friends and corporate friends, and I had a thriving social life. Before the car accident, one of the reasons I was so upset in the car accident, I had a lot of regret and my, one of my, my number one regret was I didn't reach my full potential.

11:39 Like I, I invested time and effort into things that were trivial: persons, places, things and ideas that were not constructive. Michael: Yep. Alan: You know, too much partying. Too much nonsense. And so I promised myself after that car accident, the second chance my dad never got, I made a conscious promise. When my stepdad left, it wasn't conscious. It was just my unconscious being like, okay, prove myself. Find a way. I've always been that type. Just find a way. Never stop. Driven. Achiever. Michael: Yep. Alan: But when at 26, it was definitely a conscious choice of, okay, I have massive pain associated with the fact that I have totally squandered my true potential. And the one life that I got, I almost just lost, and my dad didn't get this second chance.

12:26 So I'm not gonna screw this up. And the promise I made to myself 11 years ago was I'm gonna put it all on the court every day. I'm gonna do all I can with all I have to reach my full potential. Before the car accident, if I couldn't look myself in the mirror and say I did all I could, because quite frankly, the part that people don't tell you is some people feel gifted. Some things come easy to, like straight A's In high school, I, I definitely worked harder than the average bear, and I definitely did what I had to do to like achieve that president's award. But I was definitely resting on talent. Like I did not put it all on the court. I could have, I could have worked way harder. Michael: Yeah. Alan: And, so, from 26 to 37, I can honestly look myself in the mirror and say that I have done all I can with all I have to date from 26 to 37.

13:19 Before that, absolutely not. Just absolutely squandering my potential. Now, people get upset when I say that 'cause they're like, well, what do you mean? You were so amazing and you did. Listen, we all have different potential. Michael: Yep. Alan: The truth is I 100% was resting on talent in a lot of that stuff. Michael: Right. Alan: And I wasn't putting it all on the court. And I think that, that, that eats away at you Michael: Sure. Alan: On the inside when you know you're not doing all you can, when you know you're leaving potential on the table, when you know you could make a difference, but don't. I think that that eats away at you, and I don't think you can live a wholehearted life unless you're doing all you can with all you have to better your best. Michael: Right, and so your potential before your accident was more based, if I'm understanding this correctly, more based on external success.

14:06 How much money can I make? How far can I rise within this corporation? How much of a social life can I have? Alan: And my social life. Yep. Michael: Right? Then, after your accident, that external success shifted in you and to me it felt, it feels more like you are seeking more internal fulfillment, that you are trying to do the things that are making you feel more accomplished, that feel better emotionally, mentally, and just more fulfilled in general. And you, you talk about like trying to find that balance, right, of external success, internal fulfillment.

14:48 Where do you see people get that balance wrong most often between external success and internal fulfillment? Alan: Yeah, so I think it, it comes down to the vanity metrics. Somewhere, and again, I, I, I know a lot of your listeners are in the US so I'll speak to the US experience 'cause that's the one that I had. And again, in Massachusetts, right? In high school we kind of re, it really blossoms and I've given speeches at high schools and I got the privilege once to speak in Milwaukee to eighth and ninth graders. No, seven and eighth for one assembly. 300 students, ninth and 10th, 11th and 12th, all in the same day.

15:35 And then I got to give a training to the staff. So it was a four speech day. But the fascinating thing was the middle schoolers were more open-minded. They didn't have that ego yet. Michael: Right. Alan: I, the, the speech was perseverance and a growth mindset and thinking long term, something like that. Michael: Okay. Alan: And it was all about personal development, self-improvement, and personal growth. And this basically what I said to Kev, my business partner, we gave the speech together. The middle schoolers were very open to it and well received. So that's the seventh and eighth graders. The ninth and 10th, it was a little worse, which made no sense 'cause it was the second time we gave the speech and I thought we did a better job. Michael: Yep.

16:15 Alan: So I was in the green room going, what the heck just happened? Like we, we did a way better job, but it was received worse. And then the juniors and seniors at 11th and 12th might as well have been making fun of us. And so that was the one of the best lessons ever is the ego develops. It's not cool to better yourself. It's cool to not give an f and good luck, by the way, if that's your attitude. You're in so much trouble long term, right? 10, 20, 30 years of that, you're in so much trouble, but the reason I mention all of that is the fulfillment thing. In high school, we all start caring about what other people think of us more than what we think of us.

16:59 Michael: Right. Alan: And we all have to live in these two worlds. We have to live in the real world and the social world. The social world is your Instagram photos. The real world is how you feel about yourself when you're by yourself. The social world is the wedding photos. The real world is the actual marriage. Michael: Yep. Alan: The social world is your, I don't know, profile photo. The real world is how you actually look in the mirror in the morning. The problem is the syntax both matter. Michael: Yeah. Alan: They do. Your reputation matters, of course, but you have a thousand reputations. You only have one character. You give a speech in front of a thousand people, they have a thousand opinions of you, but you are still only one character, and so it needs to be from the inside out.

17:44 So syntax matters. In high school, we care more about our reputation than our character. We tend to, very few people can reverse that. It's brutal Michael: Yep. Alan: 'cause you're just trying to win the social game in high school, which is why high school is so awful. At least it was for me. You think I look young now. I was a prepubescent loser in high school. But luckily I played the long game, and I figured this out eventually. So I would say that's the answer is that that's the thing that people get wrong. Michael: Yeah. Alan: You are so focused on looking good rather than getting better, Michael: Right. Alan: that you actually aren't looking good eventually because you're not getting better.

18:27 I would much rather you spend the next decade working on getting better in real life and then let that ripple out into your reputation and your Instagram and your podcast and whatever than the opposite, because eventually you get stuck and you have to hide. I know I, I used to do fitness modeling. I did 43 photo shoots, and even the models don't look like they seem to look, and, and they are now trapped by their own inability to, to be real. When you edit the photos and you, you take a hundred photos, you pick the best, you know, 15, and then you edit them, and then you paint on whatever, and, and then the makeup and the, all that, all of a sudden now you can't let anyone see you in person Michael: Right.

19:09 Alan: Because it's, you know, you go from this to all the way down and it's, so, I would rather you be better in the real world and be undervalued than be overvalued with great branding and marketing at the expense of who you really are. And so that's the number one thing I see that people screw up, is you need to be from the inside out. It has to be my marriage first, wedding photo second, metaphorically. Michael: Right. Yeah, it's such an interesting comparison the di-, the dichotomy between reputation and character is challenging to manage on a daily basis, and, Alan: Oh yeah. Michael: especially, as a dad, like it's not just yourself, right?

19:50 You're representing your family, right? Like your kids are representation of you, and what they post on social media versus who they are as human beings. And it's so easy to fall into the trap of, oh, I need to show off like I am the perfect dad. I'm the, you know, dad of the year. I deserve that little trophy that everybody gets, right with the little, you know, plastic plaque on it. But that's not reality, right? At the end of the day, what you show to others with on Instagram or TikTok or wherever you are, right, that is as real or as artificial as you wanna make it, Alan: Yep.

20:31 Michael: but where you show up for the people you care about, right, when you're there, when your kids have an issue, when your partner has an issue, Alan: Mm-hmm. Michael: when your partner needs something, or your kids have a bad day at school, knowing that you are there, that's the part that's important, Alan: Mm-hmm. Michael: not what you post on Instagram. It's such an interesting comparison. 'cause oftentimes we tend to look at 'em one right as they are kind of one and the same as the pictures I'm putting up on social media are how I live my life. That's not true. Alan: No, not at all. Never. Never, never, never. Nope. Michael: And it doesn't matter if you're in high school or you're a father of high schoolers, right? It's still the same challenge, You want people to look at you positively and, but that isn't what, at the end of the day, that's not what matters.

21:23 Showing up for the people that matter to you. That has a lot more importance, I think, than the vanity metrics of how many likes did I get on my post? Or, how many comments did, did people make? Or you know, how big is my audience today? At the end of the day, that doesn't really matter, right? Alan: So Michael: It's showing up for the one that matters to you, like being there when you're kid gets home from school, or being there when your partner has a, a, a tough break at work, that matters. Alan: What I try to share with my clients is make sure you're spending 80% of your time and effort and money on making your real life great and only 20% of your time, effort, and money on making it look great.

22:06 Most people have that flipped Michael: yep. Alan: because the truth is they do both matter. My, my company has a brand. A brand is nothing more than a reputation. Michael: Right. Alan: So you know why, why the awards in the background? Why the nice shirt? Why the nice microphone? My camera's been a little wonky on this with the auto exposure, but what I used to think is it's like we start out in life and we think all that matters is your reputation. Michael: Yep. Alan: And you are so concerned with what people think of you. That's the adolescent mind. It's social, tribal belonging. I get it. I get it. Then you are like, you know what? Screw that. And you have a quarter life crisis or midlife crisis, and you realize, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. And then you realize you're gonna go broke if that's the case.

22:48 You gotta care what your boss thinks of you. You gotta care about what the economy thinks of you. You gotta care about what the agents, if you're an actor, I'm, I'm coaching an actor after this, think of you, but it can't be number one. So you go from you overswing, I overswung. I went from like, I care what people think of me in high school to after my car accident, I don't care what anyone thinks of me. I'm not gonna worry about perception and status whatsoever. And then I realized, oh my goodness, if I'm gonna be a fitness coach, a fitness model, and a fitness competitor, they need to believe that I'm great. Which means I need to showcase some of myself and sell the product, and market the product, and brand the product. And then hopefully you find this middle ground eventually where you're like, listen, both your character and your reputation matter, but make sure it's character first.

23:34 Michael: Right. Alan: But they do both matter. And yes, no one's Instagram account, including my own... Michael: Yeah. Alan: This is the best quote. It's so simple, but it's so profound if you just get this and get it good. Everyone's social media. Everyone's media. Everyone's media, every movie, every, everything is what they want you to see. Michael: Yep. Alan: That's it. Better or worse, up or down. Some people inflate, some people deflate, some people omit. The point is it's literally what they want you to see. My Instagram is all fitness stuff. It's what I want you to see, and I love fitness, and I think that's great. Michael: Right. Alan: I'm not making it right, wrong, or indifferent. What I am saying is it's not my whole life. Michael: Yep. Alan: It's one flavor of my life, right?

24:16 Michael: Absolutely. Alan: And we have multifaceted lives, but we're known in the marketplace for one thing. Serena Williams is tennis. Oprah Winfrey's mass media, right? Michael: Yep. Alan: You get known in the marketplace for one thing. Mine is coaching. But that doesn't mean I'm just a coach. Michael: Right. Alan: And for the dads out there listening, you are not just a plumber or just a dad or just a accountant or you, you are multifaceted in real life, Michael: Yep. Alan: but then in your social life, you're probably not because we all kind of put everybody in boxes just to get through the day, because I don't know. We don't know Serena Williams behind the scenes. Michael: Right, right. We simplify with labels 'cause we're balancing so many, Alan: Yep.

24:58 Michael: So many different things. I, I, what I really find interesting you said that you overswung, you know, from one, one side of things to the other. And that is, I think that's natural, right, of like, we try to course correct, but we don't know any better, so we go all the way to the other end, Alan: Yeah. Michael: and the way we kind of find that the, the right balance or the right alignment is through experience, right? We have to go through these experiences of, you know, putting all our, you know, putting ourselves way in one direction, realizing, well, maybe I overcorrected there. Alan: Yeah. Michael: Now I need to dial it back, right? I don't need to be the extreme I started at, but I also don't need to be extreme that I finish at. Somewhere in between, but you don't know that until, until you do it.

25:41 And you've spent, you know, you've said you spent 6,000 plus hours, almost 7,000 hours Alan: Mm-hmm. Michael: of coaching high performers. What patterns do you see in these pe-, people that you coach who look successful on paper, but maybe they do feel disconnected at home or on the social front? Alan: Yeah. So one of the things that I think I can provide, just because the cool part about my job is I get to see the Instagram and the person. Michael: Yep. Alan: I, I get to see the Instagram and the bank account, Michael: Yep. Alan: Right? So, I get to see the Ferrari and the debt. No, but the truth is there's two sides to every coin, and I think that it's been really cool for me to have these realizations.

26:27 I feel very grateful that my coaching has taught me so much of these principles, because it would be really easy to, to assume everyone else's life is awesome and yours sucks when you're comparing your real life to their highlight reel. Michael: Yep. Alan: And I just don't do that anymore. Not because I'm so special, but because I see both. And so now, I mean, I literally have coached famous people. I've coached two supermodels at this stage. Like they, they're businesses. I'm trying to help them grow their businesses, and some of them I don't even want to coach 'cause I don't think they're necessarily good for the world, but it's very clear to me at this stage that the social world in the real world are very, very different.

27:14 Some people, they're not that different. Michael: Right. Alan: Some people are very authentic on social media. Some people are more full of it than you could imagine. It is bad. Okay. Really. Seriously. And those are the people I try not to coach. I don't coach, actually. I used to try not to because I needed to grow my business, right, but eventually it was like, you know what, no, you're, you're outta here. So the point that I'm making though, to answer your original question, the insight that I can give everyone is everyone's, I call it the inverse 10 law. If you see someone on social media who looks 10x successful, 10 outta 10 successful, the top of the bell curve, they most likely are one 10th as successful as they look, which still might be successful, right?

28:00 If someone looks like a billionaire, they still probably are a multimillionaire, okay? What I've found is fascinating is the opposite is also true. If someone doesn't look very successful on social media, they're almost always 10 times more successful than they look. I, I have a, someone I coached, she, she, we calculated her portfolio over time and it's projected for 11 million by the time she retires Michael: Yep. Alan: and she drives a Toyota with paint chipping off it. Like that's the fascinating thing is she's just not good at looking good. She's good at actually getting good, and she's never even made more than 25 bucks. She's just been investing since she was a child. Her dad was in finance and you know, they started, they started very young.

28:41 But that would be an insight I would give everybody is Michael: Sure. Alan: understand that if, if someone, if you think someone's inflating, they probably are. Michael: Right. Alan: And if you think someone's deflating, they probably are. And the truth is in the middle. Back to what you said about the swinging, I think maturity is those swings are still happening, but they're not as drastic. Michael: Yep. Alan: So in the beginning, you go from like screaming into your pillow in your room, crying hysterically to happy as hell, eating dinner. Michael: Right. Alan: And then all the way back. And it's like we all go into this world naked, scared, and ignorant. We don't know ourselves, others in the world yet. We don't know how any of it works. So we're like, okay, let me, you know, oh, I meet a boy.

29:23 Okay. I don't really like boys. All right, let's try girls. I don't really like girls either. And, and then you just swing. You just swing and you swing for the fences, and you eventually realize like, okay, life is about swinging. You have to experiment, you have to try new persons, places, things and ideas, but you shouldn't be always over swinging to those huge extremes. And, and so I think we all learn who we are through trial and error Michael: Yep. Alan: and then hopefully also studying as well. Like, you don't have to learn everything yourself. You don't have to, you don't have to get hit by a car to know, to look both ways, right? You can read a book on it, Michael: Yep. Alan: but at the end of the day that would be the other thing that I would say is you have to learn about yourself, others in the world as much as possible, because we all have a mental map, Michael: yep.

30:14 Alan: and some of us have massive blind spots. So I always say we have three 4K TVs. One of them is yourself, self-awareness. One of them is others, people in general, neuroscience, physiology, psychology, people, how they work, behavioral economics, all this. And then you've got the world. 8 billion people on planet Earth. 195 countries. You know, how the earth works, how the economy works, business, private versus public versus charity versus nonprofit like you, a government, the whole nine, different types of government. You, so, some people, we all have all three. We all need all three. But one of us, one of us has like a staticky TV where you can't see almost anything. Michael: Right.

30:54 Alan: One of them is like sort of regular definition, and then one of them is 4K HD. For me, the 4K HD was science, technology, engineering, mathematics, business, and finance. It was like knowing the world. Michael: Yep. Alan: I didn't know myself super well, but I knew the world and after 26 I started diving into the self. So the gold is buried where you least wanna dig. Everyone I've ever coached, and I hope this answers your original question, but everything, everyone I've ever coached has one TV that's like staticky, and they don't know it almost at all. And a lot of people, they just don't know the world. Michael: Right. Alan: They know themselves really well. They know people really well, they're good at, but they don't know how the world works, so they can't win in the economy. And then other people know exactly how the economy works. They're super successful multimillionaires, and they don't have any self-awareness whatsoever.

31:38 It's wild. Michael: That's such an interesting metaphor of looking at how we see things. I'm curious, like, regardless of which of your TVs is 4K, like, is there something that we, is there a habit that we could kind of instill, start working on today that would help us make these pictures just a little bit more clear for ourselves? Alan: The first one is honesty with self and asking the question, which one of my TVs is the most blurry because we all have a mental map of ourself, others in the world, but if you, if it's inaccurate, it's like a self-driving car.

32:20 If it thinks it's a road, but it's actually a cliff, it's gonna keep driving off a cliff repeatedly. Michael: Right. Alan: People always say, like, why aren't I more successful? Because you think inaccurately. Michael: Yep. Alan: Every time I've helped a client become more successful, it always could come down to identifying which part, which TV is blurry and why, and filling in that awareness. Michael: Sure. Alan: If you don't know yellow snow is pee, you're gonna eat it. Like, it, it's just that I, but that's with everything. Michael: Right. Alan: It's like playing chess when you don't know what the pieces do. Michael: Right. Alan: And, and so what, what can you do? You just get really humble. Michael: Yep. Alan: Most people I've found have one of the TVs really, really good, and the other ones seriously need work.

33:06 Same with me. My TV that was really good because my pain, my past was so painful, I unconsciously ran from it by learning the world. Michael: Yep. Alan: I studied all the forms of government. I studied philosophy. I studied economics. I studied, I mean, I, I was just like curious about how the world works, science, technology, all this stuff. I built my first computer at 12. I loved video games. I loved learning about the world. I didn't like learning about myself because that was where all the pain was. Michael: Right. Alan: I certainly didn't like learning about my past. So I had to sort of go back to Pride Rock, Lion King metaphor and face my past. But what I realized in hindsight is I was so wrong about myself because I understood the world, but I didn't understand where I fit, fit on the bell curve.

33:52 Like I had no idea that I was gifted. I had no freaking clue. I just thought that things were easy for people. Michael: Right. Alan: I used to wonder like, why are you guys, why are you guys so bad at this? I don't understand. After coaching so many people, I was like, oh, so you, this does not come naturally to you at all? Holy crap. And, and so through coaching others, I started learning about myself and others, Michael: Yep. Alan: and then I fit that into the world. And I think that's the metaphor. So yeah, that's where you start is just the, the humility to know that you don't know what you don't know is limitless. What you do know is limited. And the person who, everyone think of someone who knows very little, but they bark like they know everything.

34:35 Michael: Right. Alan: They've never studied. They suck. They suck. Those, they're arrogant and, and ignorant, and those two come hand in hand. Michael: Yeah. Alan: I understand they're trying to puffer fish. They're trying to pretend to know because they wanna lead and they're deeply insecure. They're, a lot of times they're bullies or they're entitled. At the end of the day, in real life, you need to know that smoking cigarettes can kill you. You need to know that alcohol is terrible for your brain. You need to know that sleep is the most important thing for your brain. Why? Because if you don't know, you're not gonna, you're not gonna live a great life. Michael: Yep. Alan: Knowledge is potential power, and I think that most of us just don't know enough to do better.

35:19 You have to know better to do better, and I really do. I, I, this is what I say. Last piece, I say this to my clients. I say, anyone can teach you how to lose weight. Almost no one can get you to actually do it. Michael: Right. Alan: I'm poking the right, the right button to get you to actually do it, to hold you accountable, to understand what drives you, to understand why you do what you do, and why you don't do what you don't, and like what you're avoiding and what you're after and what your desires and fears and all this stuff. Like, you can reprogram a human being just like you can reprogram a computer with their consent, of course. And you really can help someone flourish when you help them identify the massive blind spots they have on these TVs.

35:59 Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I love that. So we're gonna go from humility to ridiculousness. We're gonna jump into our speed round. Five quick questions, have nothing to do with anything. Alan: Nice. Michael: What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind? Alan: Hey Arnold. Michael: Hey Arnold. Okay. What was your very first job? Alan: I was a busboy and a cart kid for a golf course called Crystal Lake. Michael: Very nice. That must have been fun. Alan: It was interesting. Michael: Probably had some experiences. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler? Alan: Definitely a T-Rex-sized toddler. Michael: Why is that? Alan: I don't know. That would be ridiculous.

36:40 Michael: Yeah. Alan: That is a ridiculous question. Michael: Yeah. Alan: Go ahead. Michael: What's your go-to karaoke song? Alan: Probably Ice Ice Baby. Michael: Nice. Classic. Vanilla Ice. I like it. Finally, what's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets? Alan: Weirdest thing? Michael: Yep. Alan: I guess creatine. Michael: Okay. Alan: I don't know if that'd be weird, but yeah. Michael: Yeah. To some people, I suppose. Alan: At the airport, it's weird 'cause they have to check it every time.

37:22 Michael: I bet. I bet. Well, Alan, I appreciate you making the time to, to chat with me today. Your body of work is really impressive, and your experience, what you've been through in life is very unique and the way you've overcome the challenges and inspire others is really impressive. So if listeners wanna find you, listen to your podcasts, or what you're currently working on, how can they go deeper if this conversation resonated with them? Alan: Yeah. Thank you again for having me. Started with gratitude. End with gratitude. Thank you. Do you ask those questions to everybody? Michael: The speed round questions? Alan: Yeah. Michael: Yes, same questions to everybody. Alan: How did you come up with those man?

38:04 Michael: I have a sick mind sometimes. Alan: T-Rex-sized toddler or a toddler-sized T-Rex? Michael: Yes. Alan: What? Nice. Michael: I like making hypotheticals sometimes. Alan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, it's all good. That's really, that's really something I've never heard that question before in my life. Yeah, so if anyone's out there and they want, so high humility, high work ethic, high self-improvement, orientation, I'm not for everybody. If you want big rewards for minimal effort, do not reach out under any circumstance. I realized somewhere along the line that I was trying to help people that I couldn't help because nothing works unless you work. Michael: Yep. Alan: Despite what the internet wants to tell you, nothing works unless you work. Certainly not in the real world, right? Michael: Right. Alan: If you're gonna lie, steal, cheat, and status your way to success, then yeah, you can do that, but I'm not interested in that.

38:45 So, high work ethic, high humility, high self-improvement orientation. Reach out NextLevelUniverse.com. Next Level University podcast, success and personal development in your pocket from anywhere on the planet, every single day. Completely free. That is Next Level University. We do an episode every single day on the fundamentals of success and personal development, self-improvement and personal growth. And we are the mentors in your pocket that we never had 'cause we both grew up without dads and now we just wanna spread self-improvement to as many people as possible. So thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. Michael: I appreciate that. Thank you, Alan, and appreciate how grounded this conversation was. And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between, navigating a season feels different, head to gaptogig.com, subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

39:27 Comes out every Friday. It's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now. And if this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.