David Marcus on Fatherhood, Emotional Presence, and Raising Kids in a Stressed World

[00:00:00] David: Children experience their emotions, especially very young children, very intensely. And believe it or not, there's something under there that I've learned from seeing so many children to tell you the truth that they are afraid that the intensity of their emotions, so, it's going to drive their parent away.

[00:00:18] Michael: Yeah.

[00:00:19] David: Okay? They're not gonna say that.

[00:00:22] Michael: Right.

[00:00:22] David: You know? But that's the underlying fear.

[00:00:26] Michael: Yeah.

[00:00:26] David: So, the worst thing you can do is say, I can't talk to you. Go to your room, you know, you're a pain in the neck.

[00:00:38] Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today's guest is Dr. David Marcus. Dave's a clinical psychologist with more than 40 years of experience helping families under stress learn how to communicate better, especially when emotions run high. He's [00:01:00] worked with parents, children, judges, and family lawyers, and he's seen firsthand how work, pressure, conflict, and time scarcity impact kids and dads in particular. Dave's also the author of the upcoming book, ParentRx, which focuses on practical prescriptive tools parents can use to build healthier emotional connections with their children.

Dave, I'm excited to chat with you today. Welcome to the show. Really glad you're here.

[00:01:21] David: Thanks for having me, Michael.

[00:01:23] Michael: My pleasure. So, a lot of dads listening to this are trying to be good fathers and good providers at the same time, and it often feels like those two roles are pulling them in opposite directions. And you've spent decades working with families under stress.

When dads come to you feeling disconnected from their kids, what's usually underneath that, that disconnection?

[00:01:44] David: Well, you're, you're actually mentioning it already, that the stress on families these days is inordinate, okay?

[00:01:51] Michael: Yeah.

[00:01:52] David: We've got work stress. We've got, you know, financial stress. We've got kids who can't just go out and play in [00:02:00] the streets anymore. So, everything has to be scheduled, you know?

[00:02:03] Michael: Right.

[00:02:04] David: And one of the biggest things is actually technology because it used to be in the old days, I guess you'd say, that you could leave the work at the office.

[00:02:15] Michael: Right.

[00:02:16] David: You don't do that anymore.

[00:02:18] Michael: Yep.

[00:02:19] David: You know, with computers and cell phones, it's almost like you're always on call, you know?

[00:02:24] Michael: Yep.

[00:02:24] David: And, also in the old days, it usually was a one income family.

[00:02:30] Michael: Right.

[00:02:32] David: And now, no, it's not like that at all. I think better than 90% of the people in our country or two, you know, couples are two-income families.

And so everything is much more rushed. Everything is much more like putting out fires.

[00:02:48] Michael: Right.

[00:02:48] David: There's no time to just sit back and say what, you know? So everybody's in sort of reactive mode rather than response mode. Now, what I've tried to do in my practice is talk to parents about how to [00:03:00] some time to themselves so they can recharge, how they can work together in synchrony as far as parenting 'cause oftentimes there's a parenting style, uh, difference.

[00:03:12] Michael: Right.

[00:03:13] David: And also lifestyle, you know? You, you can't do everything, you know, and how do you sit back so that you can be what I call a soothing presence for your children and for your spouse or your partner?

[00:03:28] Michael: Right.

[00:03:29] David: And, you know, I've had to specialize in this.

Families under stress. This is one of the biggest thing. What we're talking about is some of the biggest stresses that are on modern families these days.

[00:03:41] Michael: Right, so, it sounds like there's a lot of different potential factors, right? And I imagine then that parents are, it may not just be one factor, right? It's they're always connected to work, but they also have to, you know, balance their parenting style with their [00:04:00] partner, and they have to, you know, they can't just let their kids roam, right, like they could decades ago? They have to, you know, like you said, schedule or plan more activities for them than before because it wasn't just like, okay, go and play with the neighborhood kids. Go run out, go, you know, go to the lake or whatever's nearby and, you know, hopefully you'll come back. It's, it's a different time now.

[00:04:24] David: If there's a pool and it's

[00:04:24] Michael: Right.

[00:04:24] David: summer, you know, take, ride your bike there. You know,

[00:04:26] Michael: Right.

[00:04:27] David: things like that.

[00:04:28] Michael: Right

[00:04:29] David: You can't, kids can't play out on the streets anymore. You know, there used to be, there was always a, typically a mom at home. You could always duck into somebody's house.

[00:04:36] Michael: Right.

[00:04:38] David: You know, not anymore.

[00:04:39] Michael: Right, right. And because it's, you now have to balance both parents out of the house, there's the scheduling issues. It's its own stress almost, I'd imagine, of just like

[00:04:49] David: Yeah.

[00:04:50] Michael: who's going to pick up the kids, who's going to be home in time to, you know, make dinner or check on their homework or get them to their appointments or their games [00:05:00] or activities.

Right, so, there's a lot of different stresses, which is different than, you know, most dads today grew up in a different time, right?

It was a different era where

[00:05:14] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:15] Michael: some of these stresses existed, some didn't. The intensity of those stresses has probably changed over time, and

[00:05:21] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:05:22] Michael: you know, a lot of fathers will default to the parenting styles that they grew up with,

[00:05:27] David: Yes.

[00:05:27] Michael: but I imagine, you know, with the changing times that that breaks down quite a bit with today's kids.

Why do you think that is?

[00:05:38] David: Well, of course it depends on how you were parented.

[00:05:41] Michael: Yes, good point.

[00:05:42] David: You know, sometimes it's familial, you know? You have a very strict father, a very, you know, subordinate wife, like a military family. Sometimes it's like that. Sometimes, it's the opposite. You, you know, you have seen the movie in My Big Fat Greek [00:06:00] Wedding, you know, and where,

[00:06:00] Michael: Sure.

[00:06:01] David: you know, there's no boundaries.

You know what I mean? Everybody's talking about everything to everybody, which is kind of funny, but it's cultural, you know? That's, that's also

[00:06:10] Michael: Sure.

[00:06:10] David: something. A lot of people, you know, children should be seen and not heard. The English culture keep a stiff upper lip.

[00:06:23] Michael: Yep.

[00:06:24] David: You know, the more, some couples, some cultures, excuse me, we don't talk about em-, emotions.

[00:06:33] Michael: Right.

[00:06:34] David: That's, that's not a safe topic. We, we, we don't go there.

[00:06:37] Michael: Right.

[00:06:38] David: So, there, there's all these things that as well as what we're talking about. And one of the things we, we will probably get into, hopefully, is the fact that take these things inside internally. It's called internalization. And it's almost like subliminal learning, Michael. It gets in there below your level of awareness, and one of those things that children pick [00:07:00] up from their parents that they internalize like that is how to react to stress.

[00:07:05] Michael: Yep.

[00:07:07] David: Okay? This is one reason why children who are abused when they grow up, they get married and swear up, down, and sideways that they would never do to their children what happened to them, but under stress, and with children, it's worse because it's unanticipated stress. You know, children all of a sudden, well, you know, they're some emotional intense thing. We have a tendency to, to regress, and that regression, we regress back to these internalized responses.

[00:07:36] Michael: Yep.

[00:07:37] David: they, they regress, and they might hit their child.

They may re-, they, they regret it

[00:07:45] Michael: Right.

[00:07:45] David: once they calm down, but it gets passed on.

[00:07:48] Michael: Yep.

[00:07:50] David: I talk to parents about being a soothing presence for their children and their partner, because that, too, can be internalized [00:08:00] and now they can be a soothing presence for their partner and their children. That's a wonderful legacy.

Mm-hmm.

[00:08:07] Michael: When you say soothing presence, what does that really entail?

[00:08:13] David: Well, in its very simplest form, a soothing presence is somebody who's okay when you're not okay. Now, I'll, I'll explain why I use the word presence rather than person in a second, but when you think about the people, Michael, that you may turn to, I may turn to, when we're stressed, when we're upset about something or feeling something intensely, you choose, you choose certain people.

[00:08:37] Michael: Right.

[00:08:38] David: Certain friends, certain family members, and invariably the people we choose are okay when we're not okay. You know, as a therapist, as an absurd example that I give to the, the parents that I talked to, I say, what would happen if you came in and told me what was going on with your family and my reaction was, oh my gosh, how could you possibly [00:09:00] do? That's the worst thing I ever heard. You know, you're, you're laughing already. So are they.

[00:09:04] Michael: Right, right.

[00:09:06] David: Because it would be, first of all, their response would be, this guy is weird, which would be true.

[00:09:10] Michael: Yeah. Right.

[00:09:12] David: And secondly, how can he help us if it upsets him as much as it upsets us?

[00:09:15] Michael: Right.

[00:09:17] David: Now, the, the reason I use the word soothing presence rather than soothing person is because to be a soothing presence, you've gotta create a soothing environment. And we get back to, you know, what we just talked about, you know, about lifestyle and reducing your stress level, because if you're all stressed out, you're gonna be in reactive mode. I could talk to you until the cows come home, but if you're in a regressed place, guess what? It's not gonna happen.

[00:09:47] Michael: Yep.

[00:09:48] David: So we need a soothing presence,

[00:09:50] Michael: Right.

[00:09:50] David: you know?

[00:09:51] Michael: And presence also implies that you're there, right?

[00:09:54] David: Very good. That's exactly

[00:09:55] Michael: Right.

[00:09:55] David: right. And how can you truly be there if you're in reaction mode and you're all stress [00:10:00] and thinking about, gee, I've got this deadline that's tomorrow and I can't talk to my kids because I have to make this deadline, and well, you get the point.

[00:10:06] Michael: Right, right. So, you know, I talk a lot to other dads about being active and present in their children's lives and presence, it means a lot of different things to different people, right? There's the physical presence of being there and like setting up some stability in that presence of that your kids can rely, that you will be there.

There are certain moments where they know they can, that you'll be there. Whether that's taking, driving them to an activity on a regular basis, or having family dinners every night, or making breakfast in the morning for your kids. They know that, okay, you are there, and, over time, you build up this experience with them that they know they can rely on you at that moment.

That they tend to be, seems to be more, they seem to be open to being more vulnerable in some of those times, right? Those are the times where they might come to you with a concern, [00:11:00] right, because there's a comfort there because you've established this physical presence. But like you're saying, there's also an emotional presence, right, of you need to temper your emotions. You have to still be, you can't just erase your emotions, right? You're going to have emotions, I imagine. So, you need to, to balance 'em in a way that you are honest with your children, right, but you're also being present for them because you're able to focus on them because you're managing your emotions in a way that allows you to

[00:11:33] David: Yeah.

[00:11:34] Michael: be emotionally present for them.

[00:11:37] David: Let me add a codicil to what you're saying.

[00:11:40] Michael: Please.

[00:11:41] David: Parents have to be careful, you know? Your children, all children are exquisitely aware of how their parents feel.

[00:11:49] Michael: Yep.

[00:11:49] David: I mean, you can pick up an infant and if you're a tense, they cry. I mean, if this is just biological,

[00:11:55] Michael: Right.

[00:11:56] David: so you're not gonna kid your kids as far as how you feel.[00:12:00]

But you can also, there's a boundary. You cannot use them as a confidant. You can't make your feelings, their responsibility. They're not geared to that.

[00:12:10] Michael: Right.

[00:12:11] David: You can't do that, you know, and so what I tell parents to do is, yeah, I admit, yeah, I'm feeling this or I'm feeling that, but "Daddy can handle his own feelings. You don't have to."

[00:12:23] Michael: Yep.

[00:12:24] David: "I'm still here. I can handle my own feelings." I tell people when they're controlling a child who is having a tantrum, and they may have their arms around him because he is really outta control. This is what I tell 'em to do. I say, "Daddy's here. Daddy's okay. Okay? Daddy can control his own emotions. I'm here for you."

[00:12:45] Michael: Yeah.

[00:12:45] David: Because children experience their emotions, especially very young children, very intensely. And believe it or not, there's something under there that I've learned from seeing so many children to tell you the truth that they are [00:13:00] afraid that the intensity of their emotions is going to drive their parent away.

[00:13:04] Michael: Yep.

[00:13:05] David: Okay? They're not gonna say that, you know,

[00:13:08] Michael: Right.

[00:13:09] David: but that's the underlying fear.

[00:13:12] Michael: Yep.

[00:13:13] David: So, the worst thing you can do is say, "I can't talk to you. Go to your room. You know, you're a pain in the neck." Well, that's, there it is. You know what I mean? Like, they can't handle me, they can't handle my emotions, and they're rejecting me.

[00:13:24] Michael: Right.

[00:13:26] David: I love when parents say, go up to your room and get control of yourself. If they could get control of themselves, they would.

[00:13:33] Michael: Right. They don't have to change spaces to do that.

[00:13:36] David: Well, it, it calms 'em down and gets away from the stimulus, whatever it was, but it's not going to resolve anything.

[00:13:41] Michael: Right, right, right. So, do you think, like, or maybe I should ask, when a parent does take out their emotions on their children in perhaps inadvertently, right, where they just, they do have an [00:14:00] outburst, it, the, the next step really is to, I imagine to own that, right? To be honest with your child, like, I am not perfect. It's okay to see me as not perfect, but here is, you know, I've made a mistake and here is how I'm going to address that mistake.

[00:14:21] David: That's second step, Michael. Okay. The first step is what's called a therapeutic response, for lack of a better term. That's pretty general, but I,

[00:14:31] Michael: Sure.

[00:14:31] David: I haven't been able to think of a better one. You say take ownership. How do you do that, you know? The important thing is that the child knows it, but before you do that you go up to the child, and I did this with my own son. I'll tell you, personally, my son would really aggravate me and I'd, you know, blow up at him 'cause I'm a human being even though I am a psychologist. He, he'd be up in his room huffing and puffing or something 'cause I [00:15:00] told him to go to his room, and I would sit down and watch a Michael Jordan video. I love watching Michael. You're from Chicago. I don't have to tell,

[00:15:08] Michael: Right.

[00:15:09] David: Explain it to you. I love watching that guy play. I still watch his, you know, videos and that would calm me down.

[00:15:15] Michael: Yep.

[00:15:16] David: And I'd go up to my son's room, and I'd sit down with him. I'd say, son, his name is Seth. "Seth, Daddy did something that really made it tough for you."

What was that? Why did I put it this way? The typical response might be to go up to the room and give him lecture number four on why he was punished,

[00:15:39] Michael: Right.

[00:15:40] David: you know? He doesn't learn anything from that. Just that dad's mean.

[00:15:47] Michael: Right.

[00:15:49] David: By phrasing it this way, he doesn't have to defend why he's mad. I'm already admitting I did something that he didn't like.

[00:15:56] Michael: Yep.

[00:15:57] David: Well, I, that's obvious, but it's an [00:16:00] invitation. "Yeah, Dad, I really thought this was unfair, and you know, you didn't, you know, whatever it was," and I empty him out, which is a phrase we'll probably get to. Hearing him out, mirroring back what he said, and at the end, he's emptied out. We'll have to go into all this so to, to explain it, but then he felt respected, and now he could hear whatever I had to say, you know? Then you go into, well, when you did this, when you threw the pillow at my head 'cause I wouldn't let you stay up late, which is true. Happened one time, you know? Yeah, dad reacted, you know, so there's that step, and that's the more important step, okay, because lecture number four is not gonna help, and just saying, I'm, I'm bad, I'm sorry doesn't let him empty out. Doesn't give him the opportunity to [00:17:00] say, "hey, this is how you made me feel."

[00:17:02] Michael: Right. And I suppose then that by emptying out, by being able to express why he's upset or what's bothering him, that it in a sense lets him, allows him to reframe his situation, right, so that he can, he's aware of kind of like, this is what happened. I'm able to express that, and now I can, I've kind of cleared my mind of, you know, what was kind of on repeat, so now I can move forward.

Is that kind of the end,

[00:17:41] David: It's close. You know?

[00:17:41] Michael: End goal to what you're.

[00:17:43] David: Well, what I do is I teach parents how to do exactly what you're talking about

[00:17:47] Michael: Yeah.

[00:17:48] David: because it's a process. It's not something

[00:17:49] Michael: Right.

[00:17:50] David: that just is one step. It's not.

[00:17:51] Michael: Right.

[00:17:52] David: You know? Because I'm using terms that, you know, the dads out there might say, okay, what is that?

[00:17:57] Michael: Right.

[00:17:58] David: Alright. [00:18:00] Okay. I'll start with filled up 'cause that leads to the emptying out, obviously.

[00:18:06] Michael: Sure.

[00:18:09] David: When I explain this to parents I see, or individuals, too, you know, if I'm seeing them and they, you know, and their relationships are difficult. I explain when you have an emotional space within us and typically we po-, point to our chest, you know, our heart when we think of emotions, but obviously it's really associations in our mind.

[00:18:31] Michael: Right.

[00:18:32] David: And, believe it or not, most of the associations in our mind are emotional and not logical, alright? We all like to think of ourselves as really logical people with A leads to B leads to C, but guess what? If that was true, I'd be unemployed. I mean, it would be so easy, you know? So, anyway, this space gets filled up with intense emotion. Anger, anxiety, fear. In fact, in [00:19:00] little children, you give 'em a little toy, they're intensely gleeful and that fills them up, you know?

[00:19:05] Michael: Yep.

[00:19:05] David: It's the intensity of the emotion that fills us up. And what I wanna explain to the dads out there is what happens when we get filled up because we all have experienced what I'm about to tell you.

Alright? Well, we know when we're filled up. We have phrases that describe it, Michael, like I've had it up to here. The straw that broke the camel's back.

[00:19:26] Michael: Right.

[00:19:27] David: Right. So we know when we are filled up and it's uncomfortable.

[00:19:33] Michael: Yep.

[00:19:34] David: It feels very intense, you know? You know, you can't think of anything else at that point.

Sometimes it makes us fearful because we don't feel like we're in control of our emotions. Oftentimes, you don't even understand why we're so angry or so anxious, you know, and so what do we do? Well, we focus inwardly on how we feel and try to do something about it. Now, we may get it off our chest, [00:20:00] for instance, or we may journal.

We may go for a run to get rid of the energy. We may distract ourselves and watch a TV show that we enjoy, you know?

[00:20:09] Michael: Yep.

[00:20:09] David: Whatever it is that we do, we are focused inwardly and trying to take care of this intensity.

[00:20:17] Michael: Yep.

[00:20:17] David: So, by definition, Michael, we're not focused outwardly, and this is what that means. Somebody can give you the most logical, calm explanation for why you shouldn't feel the way you do.

And we don't hear 'em.

[00:20:31] Michael: Right.

[00:20:32] David: We're so focused inwardly. We may hear, say, anger. We may hear that 5% that somehow makes us angrier or the tone of voice that we don't like, and we react to that because we're filled up.

[00:20:48] Michael: Yeah.

[00:20:49] David: We're in react mode, and the person keeps trying to be logical. This isn't logical. So, finally they throw up their hands and say, I can't talk to you.

And [00:21:00] that's the beginning of the wall between people, between partners, and between parents and children.

[00:21:07] Michael: Yep.

[00:21:08] David: So, you know, in fact, a really graphic example of what I'm talking about is, have you ever heard the phrase a blinding rage?

[00:21:17] Michael: Yes.

[00:21:19] David: That's descriptive.

[00:21:20] Michael: Right.

[00:21:20] David: When somebody is, is that filled up with anger, they're pretty much blind to anything else that's going on around them.

[00:21:26] Michael: Yep. And do you think when you get filled up, I know we talked about the emotional aspects of it, like your emotions get overfilled and you mentioned like running to burn off some of that energy. Are there physiological effects of getting filled up?

[00:21:45] David: Well, sure. You know, sometimes it's flight or fight.

[00:21:50] Michael: Right.

[00:21:51] David: You know? Sometimes, it's tapping into something, which is another term that I use that makes it even more intense. [00:22:00] Like the phenomenon that we call overreacting.

[00:22:03] Michael: Sure.

[00:22:05] David: You know, something happens, big reaction, and somebody goes, whoa, what's the big deal? And here's the odd part because we feel embarrassment at that point.

[00:22:16] Michael: Right.

[00:22:16] David: You know, because sometimes, and this is what I help people do on an individual basis, they, we don't have the words for it.

[00:22:24] Michael: Yep.

[00:22:24] David: It's always just been a reaction that we've never really had to describe. And there we get into something else. We are segueing an emotional language.

[00:22:34] Michael: Yep.

[00:22:35] David: We have to develop an emotional language.

And so without it, we just react to things, you know?

[00:22:41] Michael: Right. What is sharing emotional language? What does it actually look like in real life?

[00:22:49] David: You talking about the common emotional language that I mentioned?

[00:22:52] Michael: Yes.

[00:22:53] David: Parents make certain assumptions when they're talking to their children about emotions, you know? They [00:23:00] assume, for instance, these are silent assumptions. You know, they're not thinking of these.

[00:23:03] Michael: Right.

[00:23:04] David: That the child's experience say with a, when they, they were really sad. For instance, something happened that made them sad. They think they know what sadness is and they'll describe it to them, their child, you know? Sometimes they'll say, oh, I know what you mean. And they'll go into their own experience, for instance, and how they handled it, you know? Which actually cuts off the child's emptying out experience because now the parents talking about themselves.

[00:23:35] Michael: Right.

[00:23:36] David: Now, they're just trying to say, hey, misery loves company. I, you know, I've been through it too, but that gets in the way.

Okay. This is what I've learned from the children. I mean, I, I literally have seen hundreds of children

[00:23:50] Michael: Sure.

[00:23:51] David: from three on up, and with the younger children, young children don't have an emotional language yet.

[00:23:57] Michael: Right.

[00:23:58] David: That's why they throw tantrums. That's how [00:24:00] they express themselves, you know?

[00:24:01] Michael: Right.

[00:24:01] David: And it's the parents' responsibility to help 'em to develop an emotional language.

How many times have you heard a parent turn to their child and say, "Don't hit your brother. Use your words."?

[00:24:11] Michael: Right.

[00:24:12] David: Right.

[00:24:13] Michael: Very common phrase.

[00:24:14] David: Well, I was seeing two boys once with seven or 9-year-old brothers, and I was talking to the mom for a few minutes and they were in the waiting room and all of a sudden we hear a scream and we both ran out there and the nine year old's holding his arm like this in tears.

And the seven year old's looking like, oh, I'm in big trouble. And the mom, I'm observing this 'cause I'm a psychologist, that's what I do.

[00:24:35] Michael: Right.

[00:24:36] David: And I, the mom turns to the boys. What happened? And the 9-year-old says, he bit me and he picks up his shirt, and he's got teeth marks on his arm. He really got bit. So I felt really bad for the mom.

She's mortified. Here she is in this psychologist's office and her kids are biting one another, you know?

[00:24:55] Michael: Right.

[00:24:56] David: So she turned to the younger one and he said, I told you to use your [00:25:00] words. And he looked at her in all innocence and said, I don't know how. And I said, mom, that's where we need to go.

[00:25:08] Michael: Yeah.

[00:25:09] David: You see? So how do you do that?

Well, you start young,

[00:25:15] Michael: Yeah.

[00:25:15] David: you know? Three, good age, four, the child's already developing a language.

[00:25:21] Michael: Right.

[00:25:21] David: They could be the brightest child in the world with a great vocabulary, but the assumption is wrong that they have an emotional language. How does that happen? Well, I'll tell you what I've done to, to help three year olds and four year olds to do this 'cause it might help their parents. I'll just draw faces. This is not uncommon. Happy face, sad face, scared face. And I'll have the child look at the face and say, what word describes that? Mad. Okay. Happy. Scared. Okay.

[00:25:59] Michael: Yeah.

[00:25:59] David: Those are [00:26:00] easy ones. Okay. Now, and I'll start with saying, okay, I've already talked to the parents.

When something like this happens, you know, I'll say something. I won't say, your parents do this, but, you know, I point to a face. Can you give me another word for that? You know, with little children, for instance, they don't have, I'll say did it make you this sad, this sad, this sad, this sad? Sometimes, they'll touch their hands behind their back.

If you and I tried that, we'd probably break our scapula. But, you know, they can do it.

[00:26:33] Michael: Right.

[00:26:34] David: And they'll say, okay, let, let's try to find words for that. And I've had some kids come up with great words. A 4-year-old, a whole world mad. A little older child, 7-year-old, volcano man. I love that one. Volcano mad.

[00:26:50] Michael: Yeah. Very descriptive.

[00:26:52] David: The universe mad.

[00:26:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:26:53] David: And then I'll say, okay, gimme something that happens that just makes you a little bit mad. And like the one with the volcano mad said, [00:27:00] well, when my mommy makes me eat my peas. That's only this mad. So, from then on, I say, when, where we talked about something that made him angry, for instance, does that make you eat your peas mad or a volcano mad? And he'd beam because I was relating it to his own experiences, and that's the common part of the common emotional language with young children. Now, as children get older, they may not need that so much 'cause they'll have their own wealth of experiences already, and

[00:27:32] Michael: Right.

[00:27:33] David: they'll use their own words and everything,

[00:27:35] Michael: Right.

[00:27:35] David: But this is the way it starts, alright? This is the connection that people need to make with their child and they're developing an emotional language to use their experiences because really our job as parents is to help our children to learn from their own experiences.

[00:27:52] Michael: Right.

[00:27:54] David: You know, this is the beginning of that.

[00:27:56] Michael: Yep.

[00:27:57] David: Children don't learn from their parents' experience.

I [00:28:00] mean, parents try to say, oh look, I went through it, too. I'll give you an example, you know? Turns to his 15-year-old son, says, look, don't go out and drink 10 beers. I did it when I was a kid, and I ended up with my head in a toilet bowl. You know, don't, don't do that.

[00:28:15] Michael: Right.

[00:28:15] David: So what does the 15-year-old do?

He goes out and drinks 15 beers,

[00:28:22] Michael: Right.

[00:28:22] David: ends up with his head in the toilet bowl, and father says, I told you that was going to happen. Why'd you do it? You can bet your bottom dollar. Grandpa told dad the same thing.

[00:28:30] Michael: Right, right.

[00:28:32] David: We only learn from our own experience.

[00:28:34] Michael: Right. And you have to provide your kids with the opportunities to have those experiences, right? You can't shelter them from

[00:28:41] David: We can't shelter

[00:28:41] Michael: everything.

[00:28:42] David: them,

[00:28:42] Michael: Right.

[00:28:42] David: no.

[00:28:43] Michael: Right.

[00:28:44] David: Children, as they grow up, their world expands.

[00:28:46] Michael: Yep.

[00:28:47] David: We have to be the soothing presence so when something happens out there, they feel safe enough to talk to us, and so they can work it out.

[00:28:54] Michael: Right. I love how you meet them where they're at, right? With the younger ones, in [00:29:00] particular, where it was volcano and eating his peas, right? Like that is what matters to him. It wasn't, you're not being like, okay, yeah, you know, when I, when this happened, I get so mad it's like something that he can't relate to, right? You're taking his own words. You're mirroring them back in a way that he can attach onto because he now knows that, right? And you're just kind of expanding that experience for him and showing how he can utilize it in other experiences. I, I think, you know, oftentimes, as dads, we tend to overcomplicate things, right?

Like, my child is mad about something, so you know, it must be X, Y, and Z. When really it's just the simplest thing that in their language, it's like, okay, yeah, it is just, I don't like eating my peas, right? It's, I don't like the taste of them, or I don't like the texture of them. And it's like, okay, so that makes you, you know, a little mad.

[00:30:00] But when your brother makes fun of you, it makes you, you know, volcano mad, right, and so you're giving them a way to express themselves that they can understand. You're meeting 'em where they're at.

[00:30:12] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:30:12] Michael: And I assume then that's part of your soothing presence, right? Of...

[00:30:19] David: Exactly. You know, this is gonna sound radical coming from a person, you know, family psychologist, who deals with children and parents.

[00:30:27] Michael: Sure.

[00:30:27] David: I wish I could get rid of the phrase from parent vocabulary, "make feel better." It doesn't work. All you're doing is interrupting what they need to do.

[00:30:41] Michael: Yep.

[00:30:41] David: You know, telling them about your own experience to misery loves company, it stops them from being able to express themselves.

[00:30:48] Michael: Yep.

[00:30:49] David: Where now they have to sit there and go, "uh-huh, daddy's talking to me." You know?

[00:30:52] Michael: Right.

[00:30:55] David: Try to, oh, you know, redirect them. Oh, well, let's redirect him, so he is not [00:31:00] thinking about it, make him feel better. Well, yeah, that might work, but it doesn't resolve anything.

[00:31:05] Michael: Yep.

[00:31:07] David: We try to explain logically why they shouldn't, you know, feel the way they do or just do this and, you'll feel all better. That's a bad assumption. You know, it, it, still cutting things off. I mean, really as adults, if, if you went to somebody and started telling them something that was really difficult for you and they just jumped right in and say, "oh, I've been through it too, and this is what you should do, it'll make everything all better." If it was a really good friend, you'd say, just hear me out.

[00:31:37] Michael: Right.

[00:31:39] David: If it wasn't a really good friend, you'd say thank you, and go find a good friend. You know what I mean? But children, you know, children or young children below the tweens, I'll put it that way, are geared to please their parents. So you don't expect a 6-year-old to sit there and say, "dad, will you just be quiet and let me finish?"

[00:31:57] Michael: Yep.

[00:31:58] David: They'll just sit there and go, uh-huh, [00:32:00] and they'll be quiet and dad thinks, okay, we, we talked about it, everything's fine. Until three days later, something similar happens and their child's just as upset as they were.

[00:32:09] Michael: Right.

[00:32:10] David: I thought we talked about this. No, you didn't.

[00:32:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:32:13] David: You talked at him,

[00:32:15] Michael: Right.

[00:32:16] David: Redirect him, make a joke out of what he's doing, that's almost insulting, but, you know, you're trying to make the child laugh, you know? These are all things that we do

[00:32:26] Michael: Yep.

[00:32:27] David: in the name of trying to make the child feel better.

[00:32:30] Michael: Right.

[00:32:30] David: But I tell parents, if it wouldn't work for you, why would it work for them?

[00:32:34] Michael: Yeah, that's a great point. I mean, I'm certainly guilty of it myself. I know I've, you know, tried to get my kids to laugh, maybe to ease the tension that I felt, but really that wasn't the proper response in the moment, right? And whether they were toddlers or now as teenagers, right, I still have to meet them where they're at.

And I'm wondering, you know, as a dad, why is it so hard for [00:33:00] us or for dads who are driven, ambitious, you know, achievement oriented? Why is it so hard to show up as a soothing presence at home, while still trying to be ambitious and other aspects of life?

[00:33:14] David: Well, okay, one, one of the problems here is how we define the word support.

[00:33:24] Michael: Sure.

[00:33:25] David: Type-A dads feel that they're, you know, by working so hard, they are providing a really wonderful lifestyle for their family, ergo support,

[00:33:37] Michael: Yep.

[00:33:39] David: but it's not emotional support.

[00:33:40] Michael: Right.

[00:33:40] David: They're always thinking about work or at work. You see?

[00:33:45] Michael: Yep.

[00:33:45] David: "You're not supporting us."

"What do you mean? I give you this great lifestyle?" You see what I mean? It's how you define the work.

[00:33:51] Michael: Yep.

[00:33:53] David: The other is that, you know, in this day and age especially, it's modern times, our professional identity is so [00:34:00] important.

[00:34:01] Michael: Yep.

[00:34:01] David: You know? There's no such thing as job security anymore.

We've always gotta be pushing to do better. Bosses know this and they give you more and more to do. They don't usually

[00:34:11] Michael: Right.

[00:34:12] David: pay you more, but they give you more and more to do.

[00:34:14] Michael: Right.

[00:34:14] David: They downsize, things like that, and you gotta keep up with, with the guy next, at the next desk, you know what I mean? So, you know, these are real pressures on dads, moms too, but real pressures on dads. We are conditioned to be the breadwinner.

[00:34:30] Michael: Yep.

[00:34:31] David: In our culture, that's true. I think in most cultures it might be true. I don't mean to stereotype, but really, you know, you go back and look at the old sitcoms, you know, dad would come home from the office, sit in his big leather chair and just relax

[00:34:42] Michael: Right.

[00:34:43] David: and smoke a pipe.

[00:34:44] Michael: Yep.

[00:34:44] David: Yeah, right. You know what I mean? That doesn't happen anymore.

[00:34:47] Michael: Right.

[00:34:48] David: So, so you know, the one that always cracked me up was, you ever see the show the Waltons?

[00:34:55] Michael: I think I've seen an episode or two back in the day.

[00:34:58] David: Yeah. Well, [00:35:00] dad would be deforesting his mountains, support his family during the depression, basically.

[00:35:04] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:05] David: So, he's always at the sawmill, but his son comes along and says, Erin, my sister has a problem, can we talk about it? They walk around the forest for three hours talking about Erin, and meanwhile, the guy who's waiting for his lumber sitting there saying where's my lumber?

[00:35:22] Michael: Right.

[00:35:22] David: I mean, you know, it was so funny. I'd laugh at it because that

[00:35:25] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:25] David: doesn't happen except on tv. But anyway, yeah, the pressures on dads these days is inordinate, and so they are typically in just putting out fires, reactive mode.

[00:35:37] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:37] David: It's not their fault because they get immersed in it, and they want to maintain for themselves their professional identity.

It's important to us,

[00:35:45] Michael: Right.

[00:35:45] David: and so there's a lot of forces involved here, and unfortunately, that drift, that drifts down to their children.

[00:35:53] Michael: Yeah.

[00:35:53] David: I see a lot of kids in, in college prep schools, for instance. And, you know, they, [00:36:00] they have to, you know, college and, you know, you have to, you gotta get into Princeton, you gotta get into Harvard, you gotta get into Notre Dame.

And so, so you have to take four AP courses, have a lead in a school play, and be an athlete.

[00:36:16] Michael: Right.

[00:36:17] David: And you wonder why they're coming to see me?

[00:36:20] Michael: Right.

[00:36:22] David: And I have to talk to parents. Look, he's not really geared to this all-male, sports-oriented college prep school.

[00:36:30] Michael: Yeah.

[00:36:30] David: He has friends at the local high school. It's not as driven. Let him go there. So, he won't go to Harvard. Maybe he'll go to Ohio State.

[00:36:39] Michael: Right.

[00:36:40] David: You know? So what? He'll be happy, be social, and, you know, and as a teenager, that's important.

[00:36:48] Michael: Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah, it's interesting that I think it's easy for us as parents to sometimes forget [00:37:00] the, or not recognize some of the impacts that we have on the, the, the greater effects of the impacts we have on the decisions we make for our kids or with our kids, right?

[00:37:10] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:10] Michael: It should be more with our kids and for our kids, right?

Some of these decisions, whether it's, you know, whether they go to the, the private prep school or the public school, you know, kind of what college they're going to, something I'm dealing with right now. Or, you know, even, you know, what activities are the kids gonna do after school when they're in elementary school, right?

It's like,

[00:37:30] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:37:31] Michael: are you gonna pack 'em up with 20 different activities? You gonna have 'em focus on one thing? Like, it has to, at the end of the day, it's easy to forget who you're doing it for, and you're doing it for your kids, right? You're not doing it for yourself or you shouldn't be, right? You get the, the joy in seeing them succeed and seeing them be happy, right?

[00:37:49] David: Yes.

[00:37:50] Michael: So, why make decisions that aren't gonna make them happy?

[00:37:54] David: For your own benefit.

[00:37:56] Michael: Right? But.

[00:37:57] David: For your own sense of status, to tell you the [00:38:00] truth.

[00:38:01] Michael: Right, but in the long run, what, what good does that do you? It makes you feel good in the moment, perhaps. Right, so that it, it's so easy to forget, right? And sometimes it's, we default to those decisions because we're so busy, right? And just like we're already making tons of decisions at work now we gotta make more decisions at home and decisions in our own personal lives.

We gotta take care of ourselves. So, I'm wondering, like for dads who feel like work constantly bleeds into the family life, how should they think about kind of redesigning their time? So presence is actually possible?

[00:38:33] David: Okay, that's a great question. That's one of the things that's very important. I'll start with this, is what I, you know, we talk about predictable time, like you mentioned earlier. Child needs to know when you're available to them.

[00:38:46] Michael: Right.

[00:38:48] David: Alright? If not, it's always when, when, when, when, when. I mean, parents need to understand that I am not gonna use the word attention because that implies negative attention. [00:39:00] He's just trying to get my attention.

[00:39:02] Michael: Right.

[00:39:02] David: The term I share with parents is attended to, you know? Our children need to be attended to in order to develop an emotional language, like we said, develop a healthy self-esteem,

[00:39:16] Michael: Right.

[00:39:16] David: Develop a, a safe place where they can express themselves. They need to be attended to.

And I explain to them attend-, being attended to is a need. It's not a wish. It's not a want. For instance, you may want a new car, but you can't afford one right now.

[00:39:35] Michael: Right.

[00:39:36] David: So, you make the old one last a little longer, but a need is like air, food, and water.

[00:39:44] Michael: Right.

[00:39:45] David: And what happens if you don't have air for three minutes or water for two days

[00:39:49] Michael: Yep.

[00:39:49] David: or food for three?

[00:39:50] Michael: Right.

[00:39:51] David: That need will intensify until the point where all you can think about is that next breath of air.

Well, emotional needs work the [00:40:00] same way. So if a child can't get attended to by just being themself, they'll do something to get attended to. And if that doesn't work and the emotional need intensifies, they'll lose something even more visible and more graphic. What are they doing? They're acting out. That's what they're doing.

They're being obnoxious. You know, they're hitting their brother because they want to be attended to.

[00:40:26] Michael: Right.

[00:40:27] David: And then that's we get into this really bad cross here, where we're, you know, oh, he's just looking for attention. It's negative attention. So what do we do? We ignore it. You know, behavior modification says don't, don't, you know, reinforce that behavior.

Well, there's a point to that, but it doesn't work very well in this situation, you know, because if you ignore it, you're ignoring the need

[00:40:52] Michael: Yep.

[00:40:52] David: and it's just gonna intensify to the point where the child will get your attention somehow.

[00:40:58] Michael: Right.

[00:40:59] David: And then we do [00:41:00] get into behavior modification because there's something called secondary gain, which means a child has now learned, if they push the envelope hard enough, they'll get their needs met.

[00:41:10] Michael: Right.

[00:41:11] David: Well, good luck with that one.

[00:41:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:41:13] David: You know what I mean?

[00:41:13] Michael: Right.

[00:41:14] David: So, you know, that's why I, I really don't like the term attention because of what it implies, you know?

[00:41:22] Michael: Yep.

[00:41:23] David: And this is something that's very common. Let's face it.

[00:41:26] Michael: Right.

[00:41:26] David: This is, this is what it is.

[00:41:29] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:41:29] David: So, dads need to be aware of that. My son began to do some of that when he was like three or four, and I turned to him and said, Seth, if you want my attention, just say the word attention.

[00:41:39] Michael: Yep.

[00:41:40] David: And he did, and I attended. You know what I, this is very important, you know, this is, this is again a personal observation, but when my son was like four and in preschool, you know, I went to pick him up and he went, "hey dad." I said, "yeah." "I got into a fight." "Oh yeah?" "Me and this boy went around the [00:42:00] side of the day-, daycare. We had a fight, and I won." I'm sitting there going, I don't want him to become a bully.

[00:42:07] Michael: Right.

[00:42:07] David: That's not what I wanted. He was a big kid, you know? And, so, I realized, how am I gonna do this? Well, what we did is we took TaeKwonDo together so he could, you know, it was his, you know, fighting thing, but it was also, they teach you in the martial arts humility.

[00:42:29] Michael: Yeah.

[00:42:30] David: That you don't fight. I mean, the idea of the martial arts is you learn not to fight,

[00:42:34] Michael: Right.

[00:42:34] David: to tell you the truth, we, and plus it was gonna be regular, predictable times, three days a week for a parent-child class in TaeKwonDo.

[00:42:43] Michael: Yep.

[00:42:43] David: 'Cause with my schedule as a psychologist, I'd have evening hours, all that kind of thing.

I knew if I didn't do this, I wouldn't have regular, predictable time with my son.

[00:42:52] Michael: Yep.

[00:42:53] David: We did this together for five years.

[00:42:56] Michael: Wow.

[00:42:56] David: From the age of five to 10, he took a year off [00:43:00] to do baseball or something, and he came back to get his black belt, and by then, I was his black belt instructor,

[00:43:06] Michael: Hmm.

[00:43:06] David: and it was so cool. He finally passed the test and I put him up on my shoulder and walked him around the school.

You know what I mean? It was a great experience.

[00:43:15] Michael: That's awesome.

[00:43:16] David: We still remember it.

[00:43:17] Michael: That's amazing.

[00:43:17] David: But that's what dads need to do because we should get into self-esteem. There are two types of experiences that first build and then maintain self-esteem.

[00:43:28] Michael: Okay.

[00:43:29] David: The first one's called a mirroring experience, alright? Now, this is a little different than mirroring back what the, you know, the child is telling you when they're upset, okay? It's just another way of looking at the word mirroring. The mirroring experience is okay. We'll go through the age, you know, your 3-year-old makes a finger painting.

[00:43:49] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:49] David: It's a mess. You know, he's a mess.

[00:43:52] Michael: Right.

[00:43:52] David: But what does he do with it? He comes up to you. "Look what I did, Daddy." And you can picture this. I'm, you're a dad.

[00:43:59] Michael: Yeah.

[00:43:59] David: I'm a [00:44:00] dad.

[00:44:00] Michael: Yeah. Absolutely.

[00:44:01] David: What do they do? They hold it in front of their chest like this.

[00:44:04] Michael: Yep.

[00:44:05] David: Look what I did, and what happens next? They look at your face,

[00:44:10] Michael: Right.

[00:44:11] David: and what they're looking for is what I term the gleam in your eye.

[00:44:16] Michael: Yep.

[00:44:16] David: It could be the biggest mess in the world, but you're gonna go, gee, that's great, right?

[00:44:21] Michael: Yep.

[00:44:22] David: And you stick it up on the refrigerator. I tell parents, if I had the monopoly on refrigerator magnets, I'd be a very wealthy man, you know, because that's what we all do. The first trophy, the first report card,

[00:44:35] Michael: Yeah,

[00:44:36] David: the first honor, you know?

[00:44:38] Michael: Absolutely.

[00:44:38] David: Look what I did.

[00:44:39] Michael: Right.

[00:44:40] David: Gee, that's great. That gets internalized, like I said,

[00:44:44] Michael: Yep.

[00:44:44] David: and now they can smile at themself, and this is the basis of what we term confidence.

[00:44:50] Michael: Yep.

[00:44:51] David: That's the basis of confidence. The other part of self-esteem comes from what's called a merger experience, [00:45:00] which in the psychobabble term, Michael, is merger with the idealized other.

What that basically means is that children at a young age realize that you're better, bigger, faster, stronger, smarter than they are,

[00:45:13] Michael: Yep.

[00:45:13] David: and they want to be able to do what you do. I mean, what do children play at? They play at being daddy. They play at being fireman. I mean, they, they play at adult roles.

[00:45:21] Michael: Right.

[00:45:22] David: Now, they can't obviously do those things, but through

[00:45:24] Michael: Right.

[00:45:24] David: the buffer of fantasy,

[00:45:26] Michael: Right.

[00:45:26] David: they can.

The merger experience is like the little boy pushing the toy mower when dad's mowing the lawn. You know, handing dad the tools while he's working on the car.

[00:45:38] Michael: Right.

[00:45:38] David: The easy bake oven while mom's making Thanksgiving dinner. You see what I mean? Those types of things, because this is their way. I know I can't do it, but if I do it with you, I can feel like I can do it. That gets internalized and that gives us a sense of competence.

[00:45:56] Michael: Yes.

[00:45:56] David: I can get things done. Confidence and competence [00:46:00] are the two things that comprise self-esteem. We don't ever outgrow the need for these types of experiences.

[00:46:08] Michael: Right.

[00:46:09] David: For instance, the mirroring experience in an adult would be your job evaluation.

[00:46:15] Michael: Yeah.

[00:46:16] David: And we know how sensitive we are about our job evaluation.

[00:46:18] Michael: Right. That's a

[00:46:20] David: You see?

[00:46:20] Michael: good point.

[00:46:21] David: The merger experience as an adult would be a mentor. Now, not everybody has a mentor, but if you do, they hold a special place in your life.

[00:46:31] Michael: Right.

[00:46:31] David: It's not like they do the work for you,

[00:46:33] Michael: Right.

[00:46:33] David: but if they're pleased with your work, you feel really good and

[00:46:35] Michael: Right.

[00:46:36] David: feel really confident.

[00:46:37] Michael: Right.

[00:46:38] David: So we, we need these experiences and your children certainly need them.

[00:46:42] Michael: Yep.

[00:46:42] David: So my doing TaeKwonDo at my son. Predictable time. Something we had in common for five years was our merger experience.

[00:46:53] Michael: I love that. It's so interesting because it's so simple, right? It could be [00:47:00] as simple as, you know, cooking dinner or cleaning up. Like they can do things with you, beside you, and, yeah, maybe a three-year-old, their idea of cleaning up is a little bit different than yours, but it starts to give them confidence.

It starts to give them,

[00:47:17] David: Mm-hmm.

[00:47:17] Michael: Show them like this is a behavior to, to model, right? And finding those activities, whether it's small or it's, you know, a larger commitment. Maybe it is three times a week at TaeKwonDo, what you can fit, but the, the key here is that you do spend that time with your kids and they, you do allow them to showcase their growth and that you acknowledge that to them, right? That that will help them build their confidence so that they can continue to grow as, as humans. This has been super interesting and I don't wanna run outta time, so I wanna jump into our speed round which is gonna completely flip the script 'cause these questions have nothing to do with [00:48:00] anything.

But we're gonna, we're gonna go after him anyways and, and see where we land. Yeah.

So five quick questions for you. What's the first kids show theme song that comes to mind?

[00:48:10] David: I don't have a good answer for this one. I'm being honest as anybody. Kid shows, as a child psychologist, a child psychologist in me, I see very few kid shows that I think are really helpful for your kids. Alright? The, the kid shows become the electronic babysitter because we're also busy making sure that we keep up with work and on our computer and all that kind of stuff. So, you know. I'm making, I'm, I'm getting on a soapbox here. I do understand that. But...

[00:48:38] Michael: Sure, but is there a song that comes to mind? Any, any show?

[00:48:43] David: Well, not any show, but the song Cats in the Cradle.

[00:48:46] Michael: Yeah. But yeah.

[00:48:47] David: Harry Chapin, you know?

[00:48:48] Michael: Yep. Harry Chapin.

[00:48:50] David: That one, that's a psychologist's song. Let me tell you, you know?

[00:48:53] Michael: I bet.

[00:48:53] David: And I'm sure your, your dads should be aware of that song because it's exactly what we're talking about.[00:49:00]

[00:49:00] Michael: Yeah, I listened to that on repeat.

[00:49:01] David: So, it's not a kids' show.

[00:49:02] Michael: Yeah, I listened to that song on repeat when I was a teenager, so I, I remember that song. What was...

[00:49:07] David: Father and son by father and son by Cat Stevens.

[00:49:10] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:10] David: Same thing.

[00:49:12] Michael: What was your very first job?

[00:49:14] David: I was a newspaper boy.

[00:49:17] Michael: Excellent.

[00:49:17] David: I went around from zipping across the street dangerously delivering papers

[00:49:22] Michael: Yeah.

[00:49:22] David: with a big basket in front of my, and I was a good one actually. I earned points, and I got little prizes and stuff, and

[00:49:30] Michael: That's awesome.

[00:49:31] David: I earned my first 10-speed bike by being a newspaper boy,

[00:49:33] Michael: Wow.

[00:49:34] David: And I was very proud of that 10-speed bike.

[00:49:37] Michael: I bet. Very impressive. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

[00:49:43] David: I want the toddler because, you know, he may be a brat, he may be all this type of thing, but the earlier you start with what I've been talking about, the, the easier it is. You know, I tell parents, you know, you've heard the phrase, an ounce of [00:50:00] prevention's worth a pound of cure?

[00:50:01] Michael: Yeah.

[00:50:02] David: And what I do, you know, an ounce of prevention starting young, it's worth a ton of cure because you don't have to undo all this other stuff that you've done wrong, you know?

[00:50:14] Michael: Right. So you don't mind that toddler's gonna be enormous because it's a T-Rex size?

[00:50:20] David: Right.

[00:50:20] Michael: What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you would sing if you had to?

[00:50:24] David: Okay. Like I said, I've done musicals before.

[00:50:27] Michael: Sure.

[00:50:29] David: I go to song.

Okay, Sunrise, Sunset.

[00:50:35] Michael: Very nice. Classic. Like that. What's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

[00:50:42] David: A rat.

[00:50:43] Michael: A rat?

[00:50:45] David: A rat. Before I got into clinical psychology, I was into experimental psychology, and I did a project, before I went to grad school, on the sexual [00:51:00] differentiation of the brain. What makes a brain turn from female to male is actually what we're talking about. Now, in humans, and most species, that happens in utero,

[00:51:12] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:13] David: but in rats, it happens to happen within the first three days of life.

[00:51:18] Michael: Huh.

[00:51:18] David: So, I had to invent a way of injecting a tiny, tiny bit of an es-, of an estrogen into a certain tiny, tiny bit of this baby rat's, you know, baby rat this big, you know,

[00:51:29] Michael: Yeah.

[00:51:30] David: rat brain to see if it changes the sexual differentiation of the brain when they grew up. So, how did I do this? This is kind of gross, but I'll share it anyway.

When they grew up, they were all female rats. Had 140 of 'em in little cages and stuff.

[00:51:45] Michael: Wow.

[00:51:46] David: And when they grew up, I had to give them pap smears.

140 of 'em every day for seven months.

[00:51:54] Michael: Oh my goodness.

[00:51:55] David: I had, a system. I had one in my pocket, one on my [00:52:00] shoulder, and one in my hand.

Now, they all knew me, and they're not gonna bite me. If they nibble on my ear a little, I'd just go like this, you know?

So, I had a rat my lab coat pocket, and I'd find little rat raisins sometimes in my, you know, but that's, you asked.

[00:52:17] Michael: Yep. I can't say that was an answer I was expecting, but that was different. Alright, so before we wrap up, I wanna give you a chance to let listeners know where they can learn more from you and how they can go deeper into your work. How can listeners find you, what you're working on?

[00:52:32] David: Well, my website is ParentRx. Parent, P-A-R-E-N-T R-X, like parent prescription.org. And they'll see other references to other podcasts, for instance. Other things that I've written. If they want to consult with me, you know, individually, my email address is DSMarcus, D-S-M-A-R-C-U-S, P-H-D at parentrx.org.[00:53:00]

And you know, when the book comes out, then you know, they can contact me about that as well.

[00:53:06] Michael: Excellent. Well, I appreciate it. Dave, thanks again for for joining me today. I like how practical and grounded, you know, your ideas were, and, like, you have a way of talking about emotions and emotional connection that feels achievable, right? It's not overwhelming. So, I appreciate you sharing that with us, and thank you for the work that you're doing.

Finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this, and you find yourself in between navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com, subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday, and it's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now.

And if this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.