David Shar on Passion, Burnout, and Work-Life Balance for Working Dads

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David: I think you've gotta
really understand the impact

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that you want to have.

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What do you want people
to say at your funeral?

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You know what?

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Like, like think about your own eulogy.

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What do, what is your essence?

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What do you want people to talk about
and be that person at home and at work?

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But the problem is you don't
have to choose one or the other,

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but there's different ways to be
fully passionate about your work.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today's guest has spent his career

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studying something most of us
feel, but struggle to explain.

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Why do some people love their
work and others quietly dread it?

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Dr. David Shar is an international
speaker, consultant, and professor

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at the University of Maryland, where
he teaches graduate courses in talent

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development and organizational change.

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His research focuses on why people
fall out of love with their work

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and how to rekindle that spark
before the burnout sets in.

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Long before the PhD though, David ran
a small ice cream shop in Baltimore and

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was there that a young employee once
told him the shop was her quote unquote

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happy place after a devastating loss.

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That moment reshaped how he thinks
about work, meaning and belonging.

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David, I'm excited to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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Really glad you're here.

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David: Yeah, so glad to be here.

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Thanks so much.

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Michael: My pleasure.

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So let's start with that ice cream shop.

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Can you take us back to that moment in
the ice cream shop that you said you had

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a young team member who told you that
her, the shop was kind of her happy place

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after experiencing a devastating loss.

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David: Yeah.

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Michael: What do you think
she meant by that, and why did

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that comment stick with you?

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David: Oh, it definitely
stuck with me and, and as your

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listeners are mostly dads,

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Michael: Right.

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David: It, this moment was, it felt
extremely similar to the moment

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that my first child was born.

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And, and I'll explain.

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So what happened was, I, I had this
ice cream franchise and we had so

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much fun there and it was, it was
a Cold Stone Creamery franchise,

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so it wasn't just ice cream.

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We were also singing for tips and dancing,
and I had a banana costume in the back

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that both my, my crew members and my
family would dread me bringing out.

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But, but we had a ton of fun, and,
and it definitely was a happy place,

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but I, I think that, that the comment
was about something much deeper.

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So, this was in the heart of Baltimore
City and a lot of my crew members

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came from really underprivileged
areas and, and had really rough lives.

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There were two crew members that I had.

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They were both teenage girls and
they each had boyfriends and they,

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they thought that, that it was so
romantic and like a Romeo and Juliet

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kind of thing, because one of their
boyfriends was in the Crips, the gang,

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the Crips, and one was in the Bloods.

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And here I was this spoiled
rich kid from the suburbs like

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what world have I walked into?

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But, but they thought it was
really romantic because they

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couldn't double date because their
boyfriends would kill each other.

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And I'm like, I don't, I really
don't understand where I am.

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But one day this, this one crew member
who was her boyfriend, was in one of

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these gangs she came into work and she was
always so happy and such a, a bright joy.

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She would like juggle ice cream in
front of people and joke with them and,

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and just brought so much joy to work.

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And on this day she seemed really down.

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And, and so I called her in the back
and I said, hey, what's going on?

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Like, why do you look so down?

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We had a rule that you weren't allowed
to come to work in a bad mood because if

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you're not allowed to work in food service
when you have like the flu, because it's

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contagious, nothing and I, and I knew it
then and I could tell you with empirical

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evidence now, everything at work is
contagious, and bad moods are contagious.

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And so I, so if you had a bad mood, if you
were in a bad mood, just like, just like

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if you had the flu, you gotta call out.

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So I called her in the back and
I'm like, what are you doing?

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Why are you here?

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Very sensitive back then.

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And, and she turned to me and I
noticed that she literally had

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tears falling down her cheeks.

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And she told me that her
boyfriend had been found.

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He had been shot multiple times
and left for dead that morning.

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She had gotten a phone call.

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They had, they had flown him to
shock trauma on a medevac helicopter,

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and things didn't look good.

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I immediately told her to get
out of the store, like, go

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home, go be with your friends.

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Do whatever you need to
do to process this stuff.

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Be alone if you need to,
but why are you here?

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Don't come to work.

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And I knew, you know, there's financial
pressure and things like that.

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So I said, I will personally cover
your shift and pay you for the day.

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Just go.

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And she kept cutting me off and
saying, saying, no, I, I, I, I can't.

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I need to be here.

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And finally she says, I can only be here.

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This is my happy place.

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Michael: Wow.

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David: And, and I think what she meant
beyond just being the place where she

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felt happy was I was this naive young
business owner that dropped out of a

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bunch of my business classes at the
time, and, and, and so I didn't know

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that you weren't supposed to trust
a 16-year-old girl from the projects

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with a key to the place and make her
a shift lead on her 16th birthday.

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Luckily, she was just as naive as I
was and didn't know I wasn't supposed

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to trust her with that either.

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So she rose to that level of trust.

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I, every decision that had to be
made, whether it was financial or

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marketing, or about a promotion,
I made it with my crew members.

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I, I asked them for their opinions.

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I gave them autonomy.

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I gave them voice.

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I gave them a sense of belonging, and
I did all of this accidentally because

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I didn't know another world where
I wouldn't, you know, because they

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were of course as invested as I was.

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And so, so what she, what her and
her colleagues found was this place

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where they felt a sense of belonging.

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And a sense of purpose and outside of
there, you know, in school and at home

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and when they would turn on the news and
see their friends and family members being

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portrayed as, as violent and victims of
violence, and they had family members

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in jail or that had been murdered.

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This was the escape of that,
where they saw that they could

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have an impact on the world.

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We would say that these, these are
our, like 1200 square feet of space in

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Baltimore City where we can make the city
wherever we, whatever we want it to be.

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And so that's what she meant at the time.

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And, and for me, that moment.

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Was the same feeling that I had when
my, when my firstborn was, was born.

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My, my eldest, my son.

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And that was the moment that, at once,
at like at this one singular piece of

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moment in time, like I felt the weight
of the world collapse on my shoulders.

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That wow, if this could be her happy
place, if, if I could accidentally

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help co-create this for her, then
it could also be the opposite.

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And it is the opposite for so many people.

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And how much power is there in that
role as a father when my son was born

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and as a business owner or manager, you
know, in, in that, in that other world?

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And it's like, and I've
recognized how much pressure

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and, and how much relies on you.

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And, and so that was, that was a
fundamental turning point in my life.

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Michael: That's, what an incredible story.

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I mean, there's so much going
on in that story, right?

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But the realization of the impact that
you had, even when you didn't realize

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in the moment that you had this impact.

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Whether that was in the ice cream
shop or when your son was born, right,

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you realize that you are, yes, as the
employer, you're responsible for your

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employees and as the father, you're
responsible for your child, you know,

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to, until they're of a certain age.

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But you kind of just roll with it.

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You don't think about that

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David: Right.

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Michael: very frequently, I don't
think, for most people, right?

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But, the decisions that you make can
have a much broader impact on a lot of

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people more so than you except, and you
know, you've told me that your mission

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is to make work work better for everyone.

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That's kind of like your motto, if I,

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David: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: If I'm correct here.

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So you clearly, even if you weren't
intentionally in the beginning doing it

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in the ice cream shop, like you were,
you were creating this space that turns

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out was their happy place, but also kind
of a safe space for them to feel like

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they are contributing, right, that they
are doing something positive while also

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earning money to support themselves,
perhaps family, whatever it may be.

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What does that look like?

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Like, you've done it, like you've set up
making work work better for, for people.

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What does that look like for dads trying
to now build a meaningful career without

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losing themselves in their career?

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David: Yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really
great question and it, and it, you know,

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there's this, for me, the natural question
after coming to this realization, and,

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and I started being invited to speak
and then train other organizations, and,

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and I'm like, you want me to help you
with your accountants and your lawyer?

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Like this, these are ice cream scoopers.

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But the fundamental question that, that
was so intriguing that to the point where

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it took my entire life and career on a
sharp right turn where I was this college

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dropout that then went back, got my
master's degree, got my doctorate degree.

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Now I am a professor myself.

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But, but what the catalyst for that was
not just what I was able to accidentally

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stumble into in the ice cream shop, but
why wasn't this happening elsewhere?

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Why was the opposite helping
that happening elsewhere.

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For instance, in other words, why were
my crew members able to find meaning

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in scooping ice cream while people with
objectively meaningful jobs, people that

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are nurses and doctors and teachers and
lawyers and, and, and HR professionals?

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And why do they dread
going to work on Monday?

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Michael: Right.

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David: And, and my, my crew members,
I had to chase them away from the

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store because they would show up
on their day off and try to help.

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And, and, and that definitely wasn't
in the budget, so I was like leave.

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But, but, but what was the difference?

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Why it, the question became
less important to me.

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What was I able to do there?

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The, the bigger question was
why were, why were so many

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other people failing to do that?

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Michael: Right.

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David: And I think, I think a huge
piece of it is the idea that, that,

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being able to give people autonomy
and being able to give people a sense

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of meaning and purpose at work that
is not unique to the sense of meaning

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and purpose in their life generally.

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Right?

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Like a father shouldn't be one person
at home and another person at work.

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Michael: Right.

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David: There's something, there's,
there's this legacy that you think about.

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There's this thing that makes you you.

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And if you don't know what that is,
ask your spouse, ask your significant

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other, ask your best friend.

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Ask your employees.

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Ask your kids.

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Your kids will tell you, and they'll, and
they'll be brutally honest, but find out

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what is that thing that makes you, you.

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Your essence.

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And that should not be
different at home and at work.

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It, sure, you, you've gotta be
professional at work and family man at

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home, but, but the essence should be the
same and the mission should be the same.

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The impact should be the same.

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Michael: I love that.

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But I also wanna challenge you on that
because you said that you stumbled

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upon the, this idea that you could
create this space for your employees,

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where it was, you know, they were
showing up on their days off, like

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it was that important to them.

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I'm not sure that you stumbled upon it.

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To me, that's like, that is
the essence of you, right?

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Like, you set up that space.

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I don't think you intentionally were
like, I'm gonna make this the greatest

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place ever where every teenager's
gonna wanna come here and you know,

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be here seven days a week, right?

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You went into, I'm gonna start this
business, I'm gonna make money, I'm

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gonna support the community, perhaps.

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And part of the supporting the
community is I'm gonna give jobs

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to local students and help them.

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I think your essence, you know who
you are, didn't make you stumble into

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this idea of creating this culture
and this environment where they want

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to, where your employees want to be
there so often and they thrive and

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they find it to be their happy place.

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I think that's the essence
of who you are, right?

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You didn't stumble into that.

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That was because of you and your
values and your, your system.

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The same values that you probably
carry as a father are the ones

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you were bringing to work.

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Granted, you might not have
had your kids at that time.

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Maybe you did.

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I, I don't recall the, the timeline, but
so it's like you are the same person.

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You might not have realized it
in the moment, but I'm not sure

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that you stumbled onto this.

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I think that's just who you are, right?

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That, that's what's come across to me
in our conversations of like, you are

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trying to create environments where the
people you care about thrive, right?

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And, I think you do that
with your ice cream shop.

00:13:57.226 --> 00:13:58.036
I think you do that at home.

00:13:59.126 --> 00:14:04.196
Probably do that in the classroom
too, right, of and working with other

00:14:04.196 --> 00:14:07.346
organizations in whatever roles you,
you might be helping them with that.

00:14:08.546 --> 00:14:14.216
That is, you are a person that wants
to create environments where somebody

00:14:14.216 --> 00:14:16.766
feels safe and they can thrive, right?

00:14:16.766 --> 00:14:18.416
But that's just to me, that's who you are.

00:14:18.476 --> 00:14:20.726
It wasn't like, oh, I bet I can do this.

00:14:21.206 --> 00:14:22.786
It was, this is who I am.

00:14:22.786 --> 00:14:23.676
This is what I'm trying to set up.

00:14:23.696 --> 00:14:24.186
Does that make sense?

00:14:24.351 --> 00:14:28.191
David: Yes, and, and I appreciate the
compliment, and I think that you are

00:14:28.191 --> 00:14:34.616
right that there are elements to who I am
that makes me driven toward that, that I

00:14:35.336 --> 00:14:43.196
tend to be a futurist like a visionary,
and I see the, the benefits of diverse

00:14:43.196 --> 00:14:48.806
collaboration and, and that we can all
sort of work together and get the best

00:14:48.806 --> 00:14:53.626
outcomes, et cetera, and, and I think that
a lot of that stuff, yeah, I think that

00:14:53.626 --> 00:14:55.576
that mixes in to be the perfect recipe.

00:14:55.576 --> 00:14:59.866
But I also would challenge, I'm not,

00:15:02.266 --> 00:15:08.656
I'm not just humble bragging when
I say, when I say co-create, right?

00:15:08.656 --> 00:15:10.176
Because I don't talk about creating.

00:15:10.186 --> 00:15:11.926
I talk about co-creating this.

00:15:12.016 --> 00:15:17.026
And part of it is the humble
brag, sure, but, in reality, these

00:15:17.026 --> 00:15:18.856
things need to be co-created.

00:15:19.181 --> 00:15:20.381
You need a partner.

00:15:20.621 --> 00:15:23.831
So if you are the leader, you
need that partnership and that

00:15:23.831 --> 00:15:25.061
buy-in from your employees.

00:15:25.061 --> 00:15:27.521
And if you're the employee, you
need that partnership and that

00:15:27.571 --> 00:15:29.561
buy-in from leadership, right?

00:15:29.771 --> 00:15:30.121
Michael: Right.

00:15:30.341 --> 00:15:32.801
David: And so, so there is that essence.

00:15:32.861 --> 00:15:37.751
And, and, you know, with, with the work
that I do within industry and helping

00:15:37.751 --> 00:15:41.411
people with burnout and helping people
with work cultures and things like

00:15:41.411 --> 00:15:44.981
that, sometimes my answer is quit.

00:15:45.251 --> 00:15:50.171
Find a new job because sometimes the
environment is not the right environment.

00:15:50.621 --> 00:15:56.651
But, I would first tell somebody
that you have way more power

00:15:56.651 --> 00:15:57.891
than you think that you do.

00:15:58.871 --> 00:15:59.201
Right?

00:15:59.201 --> 00:16:03.281
I mean, you've seen this, I'm sure with
people that, that become transformed

00:16:03.281 --> 00:16:07.841
when they become moms or become dads,
or sometimes it's when you're a parent

00:16:07.841 --> 00:16:12.821
and something really significant happens
and maybe with the, your health or the

00:16:12.821 --> 00:16:19.361
health of a child or a divorce or a job
loss or COVID or something where suddenly

00:16:19.361 --> 00:16:23.861
it's like you were hit over the head
with a plank and you, and you suddenly

00:16:23.861 --> 00:16:29.396
rediscover and recommit, who, to who you
are and what you have to give, right?

00:16:30.566 --> 00:16:35.066
And, and so you become
this self-driven leader.

00:16:35.246 --> 00:16:36.986
I think one of the fundamental

00:16:39.056 --> 00:16:44.171
misconceptions that we have with
leadership generally is that leaders fall

00:16:44.171 --> 00:16:49.511
under, you know, there's, there's these
frameworks that, that talk about power and

00:16:49.511 --> 00:16:51.461
where does power and influence come from?

00:16:51.701 --> 00:16:56.921
And there's, there's one form of
power referred to as legitimate power.

00:16:57.911 --> 00:17:02.771
That's one form of power, and it is
a real form of power, but it's a weak

00:17:02.771 --> 00:17:07.101
form of power, and that is the power
that comes with your job title, right?

00:17:07.286 --> 00:17:07.676
Michael: Right.

00:17:07.831 --> 00:17:12.581
David: Where you are on the org chart,
but reverent power, being able to be the

00:17:12.581 --> 00:17:18.401
one who walks the walk and who just is
with confidence, just brings yourself

00:17:18.926 --> 00:17:23.396
and, and decides I'm not gonna just be
toxic because everybody else is toxic.

00:17:23.726 --> 00:17:32.276
I'm going to bring myself and bring my
joy or humor or commitment or whatever

00:17:32.276 --> 00:17:36.896
it is that's your magic sauce to the
table and let that be contagious because

00:17:36.896 --> 00:17:40.466
remember I said everything is contagious
at work, not just the bad stuff.

00:17:40.886 --> 00:17:41.216
Michael: Right.

00:17:41.281 --> 00:17:41.311
David: Right?

00:17:41.321 --> 00:17:44.771
And so the power lays within you as well.

00:17:44.771 --> 00:17:49.781
So, and, and if you take a second to
reflect, I'm sure that you could think

00:17:49.781 --> 00:17:55.001
of, and your listeners can think of at
least one boss that they had, somebody

00:17:55.001 --> 00:18:01.101
with an official title who held no
actual power or influence and likewise

00:18:01.101 --> 00:18:04.101
can think of at least one person that
they've worked with in the past that

00:18:04.101 --> 00:18:08.541
had no official title, but held an
enormous amount of power and influence.

00:18:08.786 --> 00:18:09.146
Michael: Right.

00:18:09.311 --> 00:18:10.471
David: But why can't that be you?

00:18:10.851 --> 00:18:12.891
So, so, it starts with you.

00:18:13.101 --> 00:18:16.341
You know, there's a, a, a common
meme that goes around that I like

00:18:16.341 --> 00:18:19.851
to use, which is you can either be
the thermometer or the thermostat.

00:18:20.546 --> 00:18:24.416
You can walk into the room and say, ooh,
it's toxic in here and get a good read on

00:18:24.416 --> 00:18:27.926
that, and then either join in or slowly
back out of the room, or you could be

00:18:27.926 --> 00:18:29.756
the thermostat and set the temperature.

00:18:30.056 --> 00:18:31.826
It's not something that happens quickly,

00:18:31.871 --> 00:18:32.091
Michael: Yep.

00:18:32.156 --> 00:18:35.606
David: but it's something that happens
over time and it starts with you.

00:18:36.131 --> 00:18:36.371
Michael: Right.

00:18:37.361 --> 00:18:41.471
I think that's the, the part that
really sticks with me is the,

00:18:43.531 --> 00:18:44.891
the experience of it all, right?

00:18:44.891 --> 00:18:48.191
It is, you don't know
everything when you start.

00:18:48.191 --> 00:18:51.191
When you started your ice cream
shop, right, you had an intent to

00:18:51.191 --> 00:18:54.281
build a successful ice cream store,
I'm sure, and that you wanted to

00:18:54.281 --> 00:18:56.771
have employees that were happy,
but you didn't know all the things,

00:18:57.101 --> 00:18:58.621
all the effects that that will have

00:18:58.631 --> 00:18:58.811
David: Right.

00:18:58.961 --> 00:18:59.301
Michael: over time.

00:18:59.311 --> 00:19:03.231
But you start to learn and adapt
based on your experience, and it

00:19:03.241 --> 00:19:06.701
allows you to become more of the
person you wanna be, to seek out

00:19:06.701 --> 00:19:07.751
the moments that make you happier.

00:19:07.751 --> 00:19:11.561
You start to learn what you like and
what you don't like in your jobs, right?

00:19:11.561 --> 00:19:16.601
Like my first job outta college, I worked
for a major bank in their internet group.

00:19:16.601 --> 00:19:18.761
This is in the nascent
days of internet banking.

00:19:18.821 --> 00:19:21.431
And when I was helping 'em build
their first internet banking website.

00:19:22.151 --> 00:19:23.321
And I was bored.

00:19:23.741 --> 00:19:26.381
I was absolutely like there is.

00:19:27.341 --> 00:19:28.901
I wanna be challenged,
like I want more work.

00:19:28.901 --> 00:19:30.581
I was asking for more work every day.

00:19:31.061 --> 00:19:32.081
I was getting nothing, right?

00:19:32.081 --> 00:19:35.171
They were just like, you know,
'cause they outsource a lot of the,

00:19:36.311 --> 00:19:38.351
the actual work to consultants,

00:19:38.921 --> 00:19:39.131
David: Right.

00:19:39.161 --> 00:19:40.541
Michael: right, and we were just the
team to kind of just manage them.

00:19:40.541 --> 00:19:42.551
It's like, well, there's only
so much I need to do if they're

00:19:43.271 --> 00:19:44.411
doing everything themselves.

00:19:44.841 --> 00:19:48.701
So, about three or four months
into it, I went back and talked

00:19:48.701 --> 00:19:51.911
to one of my old professors, and
I said, I am really bored at work.

00:19:52.211 --> 00:19:53.021
What should I do?

00:19:53.351 --> 00:19:58.286
And she said to me, pay attention to
what you don't like right now because

00:19:58.286 --> 00:20:02.516
someday you're gonna be in a different
environment, and you're gonna wanna know,

00:20:02.756 --> 00:20:05.096
you're gonna have to choose how to run it.

00:20:05.756 --> 00:20:07.346
You're going to want
to know what not to do.

00:20:08.936 --> 00:20:10.886
So, think of the things
you don't like now.

00:20:10.886 --> 00:20:13.976
Remember that because, down the road, you
can make sure that nobody else has to go

00:20:13.976 --> 00:20:16.556
through that in your environment, right?

00:20:16.881 --> 00:20:16.991
David: Love that.

00:20:17.186 --> 00:20:18.866
Michael: Don't know that until
you experience it, right?

00:20:18.866 --> 00:20:22.676
You don't know what you don't like,
what you, what doesn't work for you.

00:20:23.366 --> 00:20:25.016
But you evolve over time, right?

00:20:25.106 --> 00:20:30.596
And so I think part of what you're
saying is that you can choose,

00:20:31.106 --> 00:20:33.776
to, what direction you want to go.

00:20:33.806 --> 00:20:36.926
You can choose where you want
to be, what kind of, you know,

00:20:37.406 --> 00:20:40.436
if you're not happy in your job,
maybe you have to choose to quit.

00:20:40.496 --> 00:20:41.066
Maybe you don't.

00:20:41.066 --> 00:20:42.836
Maybe you have to make adjustments, right?

00:20:42.956 --> 00:20:45.056
But it's your choice, right?

00:20:45.236 --> 00:20:47.216
Yes, you have to earn a living
at the end of the day, right?

00:20:47.221 --> 00:20:50.546
Most people don't have, like, will
need the money to support themselves or

00:20:50.546 --> 00:20:54.026
families, right, but within that, there
are still choices that you can make.

00:20:54.626 --> 00:20:57.356
And I, I think, and part of
that is you don't know what the

00:20:57.356 --> 00:21:00.326
right choices are until you've
had some of those experiences,

00:21:00.866 --> 00:21:01.316
David: Yep.

00:21:01.316 --> 00:21:01.546
Michael: right?

00:21:01.571 --> 00:21:02.496
David: Yeah, I love that perspective.

00:21:03.516 --> 00:21:06.836
Michael: And then you start to learn
and adapt based on those experiences.

00:21:07.151 --> 00:21:07.631
David: Yes.

00:21:07.661 --> 00:21:08.021
Yeah.

00:21:08.051 --> 00:21:12.371
That's one of the things I work on with
my students as their, I, their, their

00:21:12.371 --> 00:21:15.911
IO psychology, industrial organizational
psychology graduate students.

00:21:16.301 --> 00:21:21.251
And, and I tell them like, when you're in
this program and you're at work and, and

00:21:21.251 --> 00:21:26.231
toxic things are happening or horrible
change initiatives are, are not working at

00:21:26.231 --> 00:21:32.171
all like that is such a cool experience to
be in it and able to study it from inside.

00:21:32.351 --> 00:21:36.131
And that little flip of that
switch, that, that little change

00:21:36.131 --> 00:21:38.831
in perspective really changes.

00:21:39.071 --> 00:21:40.841
I'm no longer a victim of this.

00:21:41.021 --> 00:21:45.011
I'm a scientist discovering this
and, and it, and whether it's IO

00:21:45.011 --> 00:21:48.461
psychology, you're just discovering,
like you said, what works for you.

00:21:48.851 --> 00:21:53.226
But you know, there's, there's a, there's
a interesting challenge that I, that I

00:21:53.226 --> 00:21:55.536
used to do that you just reminded me of.

00:21:55.536 --> 00:21:57.396
I haven't thought about
this in years, actually.

00:21:57.606 --> 00:22:02.106
I used to do it for myself all the time
and, and I would bring my kids in on it.

00:22:03.036 --> 00:22:08.196
And also back in my ice cream shop
days it was an onboarding exercise.

00:22:08.226 --> 00:22:08.916
We would do this.

00:22:08.916 --> 00:22:16.716
So our store, our ice cream shop was was
very close to a Safeway grocery store.

00:22:17.096 --> 00:22:21.926
And not throwing Safeway under the
bus or grocery stores generally, but

00:22:22.796 --> 00:22:26.606
it just happened to be if you wanted
to see somebody feeling just like

00:22:26.606 --> 00:22:32.426
miserably at their job, go like, check
out at Safeway right at this safe, this

00:22:32.426 --> 00:22:34.196
specific Safeway, at that specific time.

00:22:35.216 --> 00:22:37.646
And, so, I would go through the line.

00:22:37.706 --> 00:22:39.386
I would take my kid through the line.

00:22:39.656 --> 00:22:44.246
I would, as part of on our onboarding,
have our new crew members go

00:22:44.246 --> 00:22:45.896
through the line to get something.

00:22:46.081 --> 00:22:46.371
Michael: Yeah.

00:22:46.776 --> 00:22:52.646
David: And their challenge was to
get that, that person at the register

00:22:53.186 --> 00:22:55.916
to smile before you get through.

00:22:56.426 --> 00:22:58.856
It's such an, it's such
an interesting challenge.

00:22:58.856 --> 00:23:01.436
And when you could do that, and
when you challenge yourself with

00:23:01.436 --> 00:23:04.346
things like that again and again,
you realize the power that you have.

00:23:04.796 --> 00:23:09.626
It's not just the, the curmudgeons and
the toxic bosses and things like that

00:23:09.626 --> 00:23:11.516
that have the power to influence people.

00:23:11.516 --> 00:23:13.166
You have the power to influence people.

00:23:13.346 --> 00:23:13.616
Michael: Right.

00:23:14.006 --> 00:23:18.416
And you have the power, you
control your environment,

00:23:18.596 --> 00:23:19.106
David: Yes.

00:23:19.466 --> 00:23:21.896
Michael: like, you can choose, you
know, I, I talk to a lot of people

00:23:21.896 --> 00:23:24.776
who like complain that, oh, I hate
my job, or I hate my boss, right?

00:23:24.776 --> 00:23:26.186
Like, that's the, the common one.

00:23:26.186 --> 00:23:27.146
My boss is an idiot.

00:23:27.146 --> 00:23:29.486
I don't like anything my boss does, right?

00:23:29.906 --> 00:23:30.356
Okay.

00:23:31.376 --> 00:23:33.616
You, you know, you only have
so much time in the day.

00:23:33.616 --> 00:23:37.466
Are you gonna choose to complain about
your boss, do something about your job,

00:23:37.716 --> 00:23:43.496
or figure out a way to work within that,
in a way that makes you still flourish?

00:23:43.766 --> 00:23:43.986
David: Yes.

00:23:44.081 --> 00:23:45.461
What's in your control?

00:23:45.551 --> 00:23:46.331
What's in your control?

00:23:46.386 --> 00:23:46.786
Michael: What's in your control?

00:23:46.786 --> 00:23:46.926
Right.

00:23:46.936 --> 00:23:48.806
You can't control what other people do.

00:23:48.806 --> 00:23:53.726
You can only control what is what
you do and what you choose, right?

00:23:53.726 --> 00:23:55.526
It is a framework or it's a mindset.

00:23:55.946 --> 00:23:56.066
David: Mm-hmm.

00:23:56.306 --> 00:23:59.216
Michael: Question at the end of the
day is like, are you gonna choose the

00:23:59.216 --> 00:24:01.916
positive route, the negative route,
or, or somewhere in between, right?

00:24:02.306 --> 00:24:04.496
And it's like, how do you take
advantage of that situation?

00:24:04.526 --> 00:24:07.706
Okay, I'm in a job that I don't like,
I'm bored at, or I don't like my boss,

00:24:07.706 --> 00:24:09.866
or, it's just a toxic work environment.

00:24:09.866 --> 00:24:12.851
We've got people just don't
have respect for each other.

00:24:12.851 --> 00:24:14.051
It's like, okay, what am I gonna do?

00:24:14.081 --> 00:24:16.061
Well, one option is leave that job.

00:24:16.061 --> 00:24:17.411
Go find something else, right?

00:24:17.621 --> 00:24:22.061
Another option is to address
that situation in a myriad

00:24:22.061 --> 00:24:23.051
of different ways, I suppose.

00:24:23.051 --> 00:24:25.761
Another one's just to ignore it and
just keep letting it go, right, but

00:24:26.411 --> 00:24:30.221
you have to choose what you wanna do,
but again, it's like you're choosing

00:24:31.541 --> 00:24:33.161
your own happy, level of happiness.

00:24:33.236 --> 00:24:34.256
David: Right, right, right.

00:24:34.256 --> 00:24:39.476
And, and that that choice, which is,
which is a real choice, that you are

00:24:39.476 --> 00:24:45.836
actively making the choice to do nothing
is, is the most toxic of the choices

00:24:45.836 --> 00:24:51.566
because, because at the very least
you need to exercise your own autonomy

00:24:51.896 --> 00:24:54.656
and recognize that you are in control.

00:24:54.926 --> 00:25:00.446
It, you know, there's, there's this
idea of like your locus of control.

00:25:00.796 --> 00:25:05.536
Like when things happen to me, do
they happen to me or am I part of it?

00:25:05.566 --> 00:25:10.396
Do I have an external locus of control
where I blame everything outside of me

00:25:10.396 --> 00:25:13.006
for everything that goes badly in my life?

00:25:13.276 --> 00:25:14.956
Or do I take personal responsibility?

00:25:15.641 --> 00:25:20.591
Understanding, yes, there's always
factors outside, but I need to

00:25:20.591 --> 00:25:22.211
take personal responsibility.

00:25:22.361 --> 00:25:24.911
What could I have done
in those situations?

00:25:25.301 --> 00:25:29.411
My kids constantly come home from school
and complain about their teachers,

00:25:29.411 --> 00:25:32.321
and we have had this conversation
again and again and again and again.

00:25:32.951 --> 00:25:37.816
I remind them that they are
living in a world with AI,

00:25:38.086 --> 00:25:40.366
ChatGPT, right on your phone.

00:25:40.636 --> 00:25:44.356
If your teacher sucks as a
teacher, ChatGPT doesn't.

00:25:44.656 --> 00:25:45.676
It can teach you.

00:25:45.826 --> 00:25:49.096
And by the way, you are obsessed
with like, you know, my girls

00:25:49.096 --> 00:25:50.326
are obsessed with Wicked.

00:25:50.626 --> 00:25:55.876
My eldest son is obsessed with
Marvel, you know, the MCU and stuff.

00:25:56.116 --> 00:26:00.701
It's like, you can ask ChatGPT teach
me this chemical formula or this or

00:26:00.701 --> 00:26:06.281
this you know, biological concept,
but use like the framework of the

00:26:06.281 --> 00:26:11.231
MCU and, and or teach me governments,
but use the different characters in

00:26:11.231 --> 00:26:15.761
the MCU to describe these things and
like, like you could teach yourself.

00:26:16.001 --> 00:26:19.751
When we were going to school, we
had our teacher and the, and the

00:26:19.751 --> 00:26:21.731
20-year-old textbook, you know?

00:26:22.391 --> 00:26:24.731
Like, like you really do have power now.

00:26:24.761 --> 00:26:26.291
Everybody's got a phone.

00:26:26.291 --> 00:26:31.331
They've got the power, and so, but when
you don't take control, you know what

00:26:31.331 --> 00:26:34.241
they say when somebody is suffering
from depression, one of the best

00:26:34.241 --> 00:26:37.931
things that you can do is get out of
your house, and walk around the block.

00:26:38.831 --> 00:26:41.231
Taking control of something.

00:26:41.486 --> 00:26:41.836
Michael: Right.

00:26:42.166 --> 00:26:44.426
David: Just walking around the
block, but taking control of

00:26:44.426 --> 00:26:47.276
something starts to turn everything.

00:26:48.206 --> 00:26:52.131
And, and I've had, I've had people
in the past where they just cannot

00:26:53.606 --> 00:26:57.206
take personal responsibility for
things, and it's so toxic and in a

00:26:57.206 --> 00:27:01.406
business environment, I have been,
I've recommended to clients and things

00:27:01.406 --> 00:27:07.466
before to terminate people's jobs that,
which I, I'm very reluctant to do, but

00:27:07.466 --> 00:27:12.776
one of the sort of red lines that I run
into where I'm like, this person is not

00:27:12.776 --> 00:27:15.491
coachable, is if nothing is their fault.

00:27:16.496 --> 00:27:21.026
If they never take personal
responsibility for anything, then what?

00:27:21.026 --> 00:27:22.946
Then, they're, you, they're not coachable.

00:27:23.126 --> 00:27:24.866
They don't have a growth mindset.

00:27:24.896 --> 00:27:26.456
They can't grow at this point.

00:27:26.726 --> 00:27:30.746
I, I try to give them a million,
a million options and a million

00:27:30.746 --> 00:27:33.836
chances, but at some point, that's
where you've gotta draw the line.

00:27:34.116 --> 00:27:34.176
Michael: Yeah.

00:27:34.826 --> 00:27:36.266
So, you mentioned autonomy, right?

00:27:36.266 --> 00:27:40.466
And taking control of the
situation that you're in.

00:27:42.296 --> 00:27:47.666
So a lot of dads that I
talk to, they want to be

00:27:49.856 --> 00:27:52.136
fully, I'll call it alive at work, right?

00:27:52.136 --> 00:27:53.866
They wanna do work that
means something to them,

00:27:53.951 --> 00:27:54.071
David: Yeah.

00:27:54.086 --> 00:27:54.296
Michael: Right?

00:27:54.296 --> 00:27:57.446
They don't wanna just have
a regular old nine to five.

00:27:57.446 --> 00:27:59.936
Some are fine with that, like it just
pays the bills and that's fine, but some

00:27:59.966 --> 00:28:04.991
wanna do something that is meaningful to
them and that can look any which way for,

00:28:05.026 --> 00:28:06.371
you know, for everybody it's different.

00:28:06.611 --> 00:28:06.851
David: Right.

00:28:06.901 --> 00:28:08.021
Michael: Some people wanna
run their own businesses, some

00:28:08.021 --> 00:28:09.761
wanna work for big corporations.

00:28:09.761 --> 00:28:11.951
Some wanna do philanthropy type work.

00:28:12.151 --> 00:28:12.501
David: Right.

00:28:12.681 --> 00:28:13.251
Michael: Whatever it may be.

00:28:14.101 --> 00:28:16.361
But they also wanna be fully
present at home, right?

00:28:16.361 --> 00:28:18.611
They want to be active
in their family's lives.

00:28:18.611 --> 00:28:20.441
They wanna be with the
people that they care about.

00:28:21.031 --> 00:28:26.541
How do dads that are trying to
do both, do meaningful work, also

00:28:26.651 --> 00:28:27.761
be active and present at home?

00:28:28.141 --> 00:28:30.961
How do they take autonomy to?

00:28:31.021 --> 00:28:33.311
Like what is the first step that
they should take in your mind?

00:28:33.891 --> 00:28:34.181
David: Yeah.

00:28:34.381 --> 00:28:37.246
I think you've gotta really understand
the impact that you want to have.

00:28:38.141 --> 00:28:40.206
What do you want people
to say at your funeral?

00:28:40.901 --> 00:28:43.811
You know, what, like, like
think about your own eulogy.

00:28:43.841 --> 00:28:45.431
What do, what is your essence?

00:28:45.431 --> 00:28:49.871
What do you want people to talk about
and be that person at home and at work?

00:28:50.291 --> 00:28:54.161
But the problem is you don't
have to choose one or the other,

00:28:54.371 --> 00:28:58.001
but there's different ways to be
fully passionate about your work.

00:28:58.246 --> 00:29:00.976
So my research is in passion decline.

00:29:00.976 --> 00:29:03.196
What happens when you fall
out of love with work?

00:29:03.466 --> 00:29:08.866
And what's really, really interesting is
the, the most popular framework around

00:29:08.866 --> 00:29:15.556
understanding passion is that there's a
healthy adaptive form of passion and a

00:29:15.556 --> 00:29:21.586
less, a, a less healthy, more maladaptive
form of passion where, where in both

00:29:21.586 --> 00:29:24.616
situations your work lights a fire in you.

00:29:24.666 --> 00:29:29.436
It's embedded in your identity and it,
and it's part of you and, and, and you

00:29:29.436 --> 00:29:31.176
really put everything into it, right?

00:29:31.836 --> 00:29:36.606
In one scenario, if you're harmoniously
passionate, then at the end of the day,

00:29:36.846 --> 00:29:42.216
you're still able to close your laptop
and go about the rest of your day and go

00:29:42.216 --> 00:29:44.616
home without the guilt, without the shame.

00:29:45.066 --> 00:29:48.066
If you're obsessively
passionate, that doesn't happen.

00:29:48.466 --> 00:29:53.776
It's so hard to move on, and the
difference is how integrated into

00:29:53.776 --> 00:29:56.716
your general identity the things are.

00:29:57.166 --> 00:30:04.296
If I am doing the same kind of superhero
work at work as I am at home because I'm

00:30:04.306 --> 00:30:10.531
using my gifts that make me uniquely me
and my skills that make me uniquely me

00:30:10.801 --> 00:30:14.341
at home and at work, and they're the same
skills and I'm trying to have the same

00:30:14.341 --> 00:30:17.581
sort of impact, whatever that impact is.

00:30:19.131 --> 00:30:25.041
Then, then that's harmonious and it's
gonna be a lot, a lot better integrated

00:30:25.041 --> 00:30:27.141
into my sense of, se-, sense of identity.

00:30:27.141 --> 00:30:32.571
So my wife has gone through times
when she has been, and, and it was

00:30:32.571 --> 00:30:38.841
very interesting because as I was
researching, you know, passion and

00:30:38.841 --> 00:30:45.111
becoming this sort of expert in passion
it was like, whoa, there's a red flag.

00:30:45.346 --> 00:30:49.456
There's a red flag, and my wife would get
mad at me, but things have changed because

00:30:49.456 --> 00:30:51.076
we really talked through these things.

00:30:51.161 --> 00:30:51.511
Michael: Right.

00:30:52.216 --> 00:30:58.456
David: She used to sit on the bed with,
with our kids and rub their backs for

00:30:58.456 --> 00:31:07.276
bedtime while feeling complete anxiety
and, and, and shame and, and, and,

00:31:07.276 --> 00:31:11.356
and a form of guilt that she wasn't
sending out these emails for work.

00:31:12.106 --> 00:31:13.846
And she was a grade school teacher.

00:31:14.341 --> 00:31:18.061
She was, she wasn't a stockbroker
on the New York Stock Exchange,

00:31:18.061 --> 00:31:19.711
like she was a grade school teacher.

00:31:19.951 --> 00:31:23.431
So it doesn't matter what you do, we,
we create these narratives in our mind.

00:31:23.731 --> 00:31:28.021
But, but, but that guilt
was so real for her.

00:31:28.456 --> 00:31:32.056
And so she felt guilty when she
was rubbing the kids to sleep,

00:31:32.356 --> 00:31:36.016
but she also felt guilty when she
was down at the computer and she

00:31:36.016 --> 00:31:37.666
knew she should be with the kids.

00:31:37.966 --> 00:31:42.796
And, and so if you feel that, that's
the litmus test, if you feel that, that

00:31:42.916 --> 00:31:47.631
sort of tension to that degree, then
you're probably experiencing a less

00:31:47.631 --> 00:31:50.061
healthy form of passion, if you're lucky.

00:31:50.061 --> 00:31:54.081
If you're unlucky, then it's
workaholism, which is more not, you

00:31:54.081 --> 00:31:59.031
know, pa-, passion, even if it's a
less adaptive form of passion, is

00:31:59.031 --> 00:32:00.771
still running towards something.

00:32:01.101 --> 00:32:02.656
The work or whatever it is, right?

00:32:03.496 --> 00:32:06.946
Workaholism is like any,
it's like alcoholism.

00:32:06.946 --> 00:32:07.876
It's like any addiction.

00:32:07.876 --> 00:32:11.956
It's running from something typically,
and then you really need to work that out.

00:32:12.016 --> 00:32:16.696
But, but, but that's sort of the litmus
test and, and you've gotta figure out what

00:32:16.696 --> 00:32:23.866
it is that's driving you towards your work
if, if you are seeing this, this tension

00:32:23.866 --> 00:32:32.371
because at the end of the day people that
have harmonious passion, put in, are, are

00:32:32.371 --> 00:32:36.721
just as productive if not more productive
than those with obsessive passion.

00:32:36.931 --> 00:32:42.271
Yet people who are obsessively passionate
spend more hours on their work, so they're

00:32:42.271 --> 00:32:48.631
there more, but being as productive
maybe, certainly more typically less

00:32:48.631 --> 00:32:50.941
productive while putting in more hours.

00:32:51.151 --> 00:32:55.021
Like the world does not come to an end
because you close the laptop and say,

00:32:55.021 --> 00:32:56.611
I'll be back at nine o'clock tomorrow.

00:32:57.106 --> 00:32:58.066
Michael: Right, right.

00:32:58.426 --> 00:33:03.226
It's so interesting to me that
you point out that passion, in

00:33:03.226 --> 00:33:07.981
general, your passions tend to
be positive feelings, right?

00:33:07.981 --> 00:33:13.071
You're passionate about things that you
enjoy, right, but at the same time, that

00:33:13.071 --> 00:33:17.911
can, there is a limit to that, right?

00:33:17.911 --> 00:33:22.321
Where you, your passion can go past
that limit and then it becomes,

00:33:22.411 --> 00:33:25.951
turns in almost this, in your wife's
case, like a feeling of guilt, right?

00:33:26.131 --> 00:33:29.101
Or there's some sort of negative
experience that comes along

00:33:29.101 --> 00:33:30.211
with that passion, right?

00:33:30.541 --> 00:33:33.541
Now you're sacrificing something
else because you know you might be

00:33:33.541 --> 00:33:38.251
passionate about both your family and
your job, you have to find that the

00:33:38.251 --> 00:33:41.641
right alignment or the right balance
between those two because if you let

00:33:41.641 --> 00:33:46.471
one overtake the other, like in your
wife's case, it was like, oh, I feel

00:33:46.471 --> 00:33:49.681
really guilty about not sending these
emails out or not getting those grades

00:33:49.681 --> 00:33:53.951
in or whatever during what she would
normally consider family time, right?

00:33:54.031 --> 00:33:54.381
David: Right.

00:33:54.601 --> 00:33:58.051
Michael: It's interesting 'cause like
usually when we talk about meaningful

00:33:58.051 --> 00:34:01.631
work or what we're passionate about, we're
talking about it in the positive sense.

00:34:01.696 --> 00:34:02.116
David: Mm-hmm.

00:34:02.461 --> 00:34:02.731
Michael: Right?

00:34:02.851 --> 00:34:06.226
But we have to be careful not to
let that passion overtake us, right?

00:34:06.571 --> 00:34:06.811
David: Yeah.

00:34:06.916 --> 00:34:11.296
Michael: There is a, there is an unhealthy
level or a unsafe level of passion that

00:34:11.296 --> 00:34:16.306
you can get to that, right, can start to
cause a rift between what you're trying to

00:34:16.306 --> 00:34:18.856
accomplish and what you're actually doing.

00:34:18.901 --> 00:34:23.176
David: Yeah, and, and, I mean, looking
back at philosophy before, we studied

00:34:23.366 --> 00:34:29.076
passion much more recently as a
psychological construct, philosophically,

00:34:29.316 --> 00:34:33.336
you can look, and, and there were
philosophers who talked about passion

00:34:33.606 --> 00:34:37.656
as the most beautiful thing ever, the
thing that drives you, that motivates

00:34:37.656 --> 00:34:42.936
you and also have talked about passion
as the evil, most evil thing ever.

00:34:43.206 --> 00:34:46.956
You know, the thing that, that
distracts you from productivity

00:34:46.956 --> 00:34:49.116
and from, and from a, a good life.

00:34:49.356 --> 00:34:53.286
I mean, people have passions for all sorts
of things that are not healthy for them.

00:34:54.306 --> 00:34:58.996
One of the very first studies on passion
looking in this dualistic model where

00:34:58.996 --> 00:35:03.046
there's the harmonious passion versus
obsessive passion looked at cycling

00:35:03.046 --> 00:35:09.886
clubs in Canada and, and the, the,
they, they looked at cyclists and

00:35:09.886 --> 00:35:14.401
cycling clubs where they took a break
over the winter and where they didn't.

00:35:15.316 --> 00:35:20.386
And if you're not taking a break from
cycling in Canada over the winter,

00:35:20.596 --> 00:35:24.826
I mean, obviously these people
experience higher injuries and things

00:35:24.826 --> 00:35:30.916
like that and, and, and it's like,
that's not necessarily super healthy.

00:35:31.276 --> 00:35:35.476
But if you can put the break and, and let
the season and the, and taking a season

00:35:35.476 --> 00:35:38.836
off is actually going to help drive
that passion, you're gonna come back

00:35:38.836 --> 00:35:41.086
to it reinvigorated at the other side.

00:35:41.326 --> 00:35:42.946
I think that that's
really, really important.

00:35:43.516 --> 00:35:43.816
Michael: Right.

00:35:44.206 --> 00:35:46.426
Yeah, I see that a lot like
in, in youth sports, right?

00:35:46.426 --> 00:35:48.916
Like the younger they are,
they say, you know, try as many

00:35:48.916 --> 00:35:49.996
different sports as you can.

00:35:50.731 --> 00:35:54.331
Take a break, and, you know, do
different sports in different seasons.

00:35:55.081 --> 00:35:58.951
But then there's also a lot of kids
probably because their parents think, oh,

00:35:59.011 --> 00:36:02.671
my kid's gonna be, is the best, he's gonna
be professional, or he is going to get a

00:36:02.671 --> 00:36:07.171
scholarship, whatever, right, so I'm gonna
put him in this activity, this sport for,

00:36:08.191 --> 00:36:10.321
you know, all year long, 12 months a year.

00:36:10.321 --> 00:36:11.651
Like, there's no break, right?

00:36:11.651 --> 00:36:15.871
And, you know, my daughter, when she was
doing competitive dancing, she was dancing

00:36:15.871 --> 00:36:17.371
11 out of the 12 months of the year.

00:36:17.371 --> 00:36:20.341
It was a little much, but there, you
know, there were some seasons where

00:36:20.341 --> 00:36:25.891
there was less dance than others,
right, but it's, you can get yourself

00:36:25.891 --> 00:36:30.541
to the point of like, too much of
the same activity, even if you, it is

00:36:30.541 --> 00:36:32.311
like your number one passion, right?

00:36:32.331 --> 00:36:32.621
David: Yeah.

00:36:32.781 --> 00:36:38.851
Michael: Like, you do, you have to live
a somewhat well-rounded day-to-day life.

00:36:38.851 --> 00:36:42.271
Like, you can't just do the same thing
every day; otherwise, it's eventually

00:36:43.021 --> 00:36:46.711
probably going to get monotonous or,
you know, as you said, like your passion

00:36:46.711 --> 00:36:50.791
may dissipate as a result of that.

00:36:50.821 --> 00:36:55.351
So I'm kinda curious, are there, I know
with your wife, like she had this sense

00:36:55.351 --> 00:36:56.331
of guilt or this feeling of guilt.

00:36:57.371 --> 00:37:01.771
Are there, is that the typical kind of
early warning sign if you're starting

00:37:01.771 --> 00:37:03.571
to fall outta love with your work?

00:37:03.571 --> 00:37:07.891
Or is there other warning signs that
we should be aware of as we, you

00:37:07.891 --> 00:37:11.656
know, continue our work of like,
yeah, maybe I'm starting to not enjoy

00:37:11.656 --> 00:37:15.181
this as much, or maybe it's time to
think about what I wanna do next?

00:37:16.181 --> 00:37:18.311
David: Yeah, you know, one of
the most interesting things that

00:37:18.311 --> 00:37:23.266
came outta my research was that
this thing happens over time.

00:37:23.506 --> 00:37:28.276
It's not like, like you snap a finger
and suddenly you wake up one day and

00:37:28.276 --> 00:37:29.566
you don't love your work anymore.

00:37:29.776 --> 00:37:33.826
Some, some of my respondents like,
like claim that that happened,

00:37:33.826 --> 00:37:35.236
but then we worked through it.

00:37:35.416 --> 00:37:40.906
My, my research for anybody that this
means something to is phenomenological,

00:37:40.906 --> 00:37:45.131
which means like you get to
actually question, you know, you're

00:37:45.131 --> 00:37:47.141
participants and, and dig deeper.

00:37:47.141 --> 00:37:50.171
And just because they say something
is the truth doesn't mean you

00:37:50.171 --> 00:37:53.291
don't push back on that a little
bit and, and help interpret it.

00:37:53.321 --> 00:37:57.431
But but what was interesting is
even those that thought like,

00:37:57.461 --> 00:37:58.961
yeah, it just happened one day.

00:37:59.271 --> 00:38:05.391
One of my participants talked about how
passionate he was about his work forever

00:38:05.601 --> 00:38:08.376
and he never, he rarely took vacations.

00:38:08.376 --> 00:38:12.096
Then when he did take a vacation, he
would never turn off his phone like

00:38:12.096 --> 00:38:13.626
he'd always be available and stuff.

00:38:13.926 --> 00:38:17.826
And one, one vacation,
he turned off his phone.

00:38:17.856 --> 00:38:18.936
He's like, you know what?

00:38:18.936 --> 00:38:19.476
Screw it.

00:38:19.536 --> 00:38:23.796
And he turned off his phone and put
it away and said, I'm not available.

00:38:24.066 --> 00:38:27.341
And when he got back to work
after that, the passion was

00:38:27.341 --> 00:38:28.961
gone and it never returned.

00:38:29.441 --> 00:38:32.561
And so I'm like, on first
glance, it sounds like, wow,

00:38:32.561 --> 00:38:33.941
that happened really quickly.

00:38:34.001 --> 00:38:36.221
Like it was just this one
moment and it knocked you out.

00:38:36.581 --> 00:38:40.451
But then it begs the question,
why did you turn off your phone?

00:38:40.961 --> 00:38:44.291
If, for years, you never turned
off your phone, something must

00:38:44.291 --> 00:38:46.001
have made you turn off your phone.

00:38:46.451 --> 00:38:51.851
And so when we started moving backwards,
we found that work had started to feel

00:38:52.031 --> 00:38:57.011
like it was going stagnant for him for
quite a while, and so this is actually

00:38:57.011 --> 00:39:02.111
building for a while before the crescendo
where he turns off his phone and then

00:39:02.111 --> 00:39:05.381
he comes back and feels like this came
out of nowhere, right, but it didn't

00:39:06.306 --> 00:39:08.046
when, when it was under the microscope.

00:39:08.076 --> 00:39:15.156
So, so these things do take a while,
which makes a, which makes a lot of sense

00:39:15.156 --> 00:39:17.046
because they are part of your identity.

00:39:17.316 --> 00:39:20.616
People who lose their passion for work,
if they're truly passionate about their

00:39:20.616 --> 00:39:24.996
work, and then they start to lose it,
they, they literally go through a bit of

00:39:24.996 --> 00:39:31.056
an identity crisis, and whereas they are
screaming for help, and maybe they're not

00:39:31.056 --> 00:39:33.096
actually asking for help, it's all inside.

00:39:33.831 --> 00:39:34.181
Michael: Right.

00:39:34.496 --> 00:39:37.676
David: But for some, because some
people don't feel the safety to ask

00:39:37.676 --> 00:39:42.956
for help, and it's also feels very
much like somebody who is like a star

00:39:42.956 --> 00:39:45.086
player, typically they would be, right?

00:39:45.086 --> 00:39:49.286
They'd be a high potential, high
performing employee if they're

00:39:49.286 --> 00:39:50.666
so passionate about their work.

00:39:50.666 --> 00:39:54.266
And so when it starts going, there's
the shame already from this separation

00:39:54.476 --> 00:39:59.426
or from this movement, but, but a
lot of my participants did speak up.

00:39:59.996 --> 00:40:02.816
And they said, I want more responsibility.

00:40:03.056 --> 00:40:07.496
They said, I, I don't know why
this is wrong or this is wrong.

00:40:07.556 --> 00:40:09.176
Let me help fix this.

00:40:09.446 --> 00:40:11.366
Let's, why do we do it this way?

00:40:11.366 --> 00:40:12.026
What's happening?

00:40:12.356 --> 00:40:16.976
And, and over time it, like their
passion started going away because

00:40:17.276 --> 00:40:21.386
they either weren't answered at all,
or the answers were performative.

00:40:21.656 --> 00:40:22.976
It was like, oh, you want more?

00:40:22.976 --> 00:40:26.126
Let me put you on this committee
that doesn't actually do anything.

00:40:26.516 --> 00:40:30.951
Right, so now it was just like
throwing fake solutions at them.

00:40:31.551 --> 00:40:32.541
But, but that was it.

00:40:32.541 --> 00:40:37.791
But, but typically what you saw from
the outside was that this person was

00:40:37.791 --> 00:40:41.991
so focused on their mission, their
work, the impact that it was having

00:40:41.991 --> 00:40:46.461
on their clients, their patients,
their students, their customers.

00:40:46.731 --> 00:40:52.946
And then as they started to plateau
because they, for a lot of them, they

00:40:52.946 --> 00:40:57.056
just hit this plateau where there wasn't
much like they, they had mastered it,

00:40:57.506 --> 00:40:59.096
and they needed to continue growing.

00:40:59.096 --> 00:41:01.796
It's kind of like you were saying,
feeling bored at the bank, right?

00:41:02.126 --> 00:41:06.896
And so they, they started plateauing, and
they started searching for more things.

00:41:06.896 --> 00:41:11.246
So now the focus moves from here
to the more general around them.

00:41:11.516 --> 00:41:15.086
And once that happens, they start
seeing all of the bureaucracy and

00:41:15.086 --> 00:41:17.906
the interpersonal conflict and
things like that, that when they

00:41:17.916 --> 00:41:21.746
had this tunnel vision on their
mission, they couldn't even see.

00:41:21.926 --> 00:41:24.986
And all this stuff is so toxic that
once they see it, they can't unsee

00:41:24.986 --> 00:41:27.266
it, and it just starts to unwind.

00:41:28.601 --> 00:41:29.081
Michael: Interesting.

00:41:29.576 --> 00:41:30.196
So then

00:41:32.591 --> 00:41:38.096
if I'm understand you correctly, right,
there's not like a specific sign,

00:41:38.456 --> 00:41:40.796
warning sign or something that you see.

00:41:40.796 --> 00:41:48.396
It's more of a gradual path that you
go down where little things start to

00:41:48.396 --> 00:41:54.876
add up and it starts to almost snowball
to a point of like, oh yeah, maybe I'm

00:41:54.876 --> 00:41:56.346
starting to lose passion for this, right?

00:41:56.346 --> 00:41:59.346
Like, it's not as
enjoyable as it once was.

00:42:00.166 --> 00:42:00.456
David: Yeah.

00:42:00.481 --> 00:42:03.561
Michael: And, a lot of the times
it's things that are not necessarily

00:42:03.591 --> 00:42:06.711
the things that you control, right?

00:42:06.711 --> 00:42:10.411
It, it might be the responses you're
getting from clients or it might be

00:42:10.461 --> 00:42:10.701
David: Right.

00:42:10.891 --> 00:42:15.531
Michael: Your coworkers and how they
behave or respond to, to you, right?

00:42:15.531 --> 00:42:18.411
Sometimes, it is what you control
like, yeah, I'm gonna turn off

00:42:18.411 --> 00:42:23.621
my phone and realize that oh wow,
like, there is life beyond my job.

00:42:24.016 --> 00:42:24.306
David: Yeah.

00:42:24.501 --> 00:42:24.771
Michael: Right?

00:42:25.671 --> 00:42:25.851
Right.

00:42:25.851 --> 00:42:29.166
But it is, this is not something
that like, like you said it, it's not

00:42:29.166 --> 00:42:30.816
gonna happen in an instant, right?

00:42:30.816 --> 00:42:31.626
It's over time.

00:42:31.626 --> 00:42:36.486
So the warning signs are not, it's
hard to say, like there's a specific

00:42:36.486 --> 00:42:39.216
warning sign that you're starting
to lose passion for your work, but

00:42:39.276 --> 00:42:41.766
it's a feeling that gradually builds.

00:42:42.486 --> 00:42:45.636
David: Yeah, which is, which is
again, not to bring up guilt and

00:42:45.636 --> 00:42:49.326
shame again, but there is this
feeling of guilt associated with it.

00:42:49.326 --> 00:42:50.496
Like, what's wrong with me?

00:42:50.766 --> 00:42:53.616
How come I'm not feeling the fire anymore?

00:42:54.456 --> 00:42:58.026
And the best thing that you can do as an
individual is to, is to talk about it.

00:42:58.326 --> 00:43:04.176
But the thing behind that feeling is
like, depends on what the, what was the

00:43:04.176 --> 00:43:06.096
driver of your passion to begin with?

00:43:06.396 --> 00:43:11.406
For a lot of people, growth is
the drive of their, like the

00:43:11.406 --> 00:43:12.576
thing that drives their passion.

00:43:12.846 --> 00:43:17.076
For a lot of people, it's things
that are more mission focused.

00:43:17.976 --> 00:43:21.816
And then for a lot of people, and
this is actually sort of growth

00:43:21.816 --> 00:43:25.566
and mission and things like that,
those typically align really well

00:43:25.716 --> 00:43:27.396
with the healthier form of passion.

00:43:27.396 --> 00:43:28.296
The harmonious passion.

00:43:28.566 --> 00:43:32.856
But a lot of people, their passion
is driven by a sense that you

00:43:32.856 --> 00:43:36.486
need to prove something either
to yourself or to somebody else.

00:43:36.966 --> 00:43:44.496
Your, your, your ego is so in,
is so fragile and tied into your

00:43:44.496 --> 00:43:49.656
performance on this job and that
creates the passion to push forward.

00:43:50.496 --> 00:43:55.896
And, and so if that's the drive of
passion, then you end up overextending

00:43:55.896 --> 00:43:59.076
yourself, volunteering for everything,
doing everything, and then you start

00:43:59.076 --> 00:44:00.936
to feel like you're burning out.

00:44:01.476 --> 00:44:04.876
You know, and, and you start feeling
exhausted, and you start feeling

00:44:06.376 --> 00:44:08.716
like a, a, a bit of cynicism.

00:44:09.136 --> 00:44:12.916
And then you start feeling the sense
of reduced personal accomplishment,

00:44:12.946 --> 00:44:14.896
whether real or imagined.

00:44:15.166 --> 00:44:17.146
You start thinking, I'm not
really having an impact.

00:44:17.386 --> 00:44:23.761
And those are all signs of burnout, but
burnout is sort of like that catalyst

00:44:23.761 --> 00:44:29.401
oftentimes, especially when you have
that, that maladaptive form of passion.

00:44:29.581 --> 00:44:35.341
It's that catalyst that leads
to the much longer term, much

00:44:35.551 --> 00:44:37.621
more severe passion decline.

00:44:38.926 --> 00:44:39.346
Michael: Interesting.

00:44:39.526 --> 00:44:43.516
I feel very seen in what you
just said, like, I feel like

00:44:43.516 --> 00:44:44.446
I've gone through a lot of that.

00:44:44.731 --> 00:44:45.001
David: Yeah.

00:44:45.026 --> 00:44:46.396
Michael: Those emotions
over the years, right?

00:44:46.396 --> 00:44:51.316
And running my, and starting and
running my own businesses, and it's

00:44:51.316 --> 00:44:53.146
just like, yeah, that's exactly it.

00:44:53.176 --> 00:44:58.201
Like you are like my
corporate therapist, right?

00:44:58.201 --> 00:44:59.691
It's like you've just
seen me, explain to me.

00:44:59.911 --> 00:45:01.591
David: Welcome to IO psychology.

00:45:01.591 --> 00:45:05.641
This, I, I explain to people that don't
know what it is I say it's like if your

00:45:05.641 --> 00:45:10.321
HR director and your psych and your
therapist had a baby, that would be me.

00:45:13.081 --> 00:45:14.611
Michael: That's a perfect metaphor.

00:45:15.241 --> 00:45:17.521
Alright, so one last question
before we jump into the speed round.

00:45:17.791 --> 00:45:18.931
I'm curious if

00:45:20.971 --> 00:45:25.681
someone who's listening that realizes
that their passion for work and

00:45:25.681 --> 00:45:30.871
their family life are out of sync,
what's the kind of the first honest

00:45:30.871 --> 00:45:32.076
question they should ask themselves?

00:45:33.861 --> 00:45:39.021
David: I think one is what's driving
me because like we just said, if what's

00:45:39.021 --> 00:45:44.571
actually driving you is this imposter
syndrome, is this need to prove yourself,

00:45:44.781 --> 00:45:48.716
is this need to make other people
happy and proud of you and to see to,

00:45:49.041 --> 00:45:51.351
to make other people see your value.

00:45:51.796 --> 00:45:56.026
Then, then that's the first thing
you have to understand and then work

00:45:56.026 --> 00:46:00.976
on because, and, and for that you
probably should see a different type

00:46:00.976 --> 00:46:06.166
of psychologist because they can help
you really work through those elements.

00:46:06.916 --> 00:46:08.266
And, and that's the pass off.

00:46:08.266 --> 00:46:11.866
That's where I would pass you off
to them and say, alright, pass back

00:46:11.871 --> 00:46:16.186
what, what this is being worked on,
right, but, but that's, that's a big

00:46:16.186 --> 00:46:22.121
thing to make sure that, that it's
not about the ego and this and this

00:46:22.121 --> 00:46:24.431
self-esteem, these self-esteem issues.

00:46:25.181 --> 00:46:31.756
The other thing is to not overly
identify with the corporation or the

00:46:31.756 --> 00:46:34.246
job title, the job role that you're in.

00:46:34.456 --> 00:46:37.756
And instead of, instead of that,
identify with the work that you

00:46:37.756 --> 00:46:39.676
do with the impact that you have,

00:46:39.901 --> 00:46:40.191
Michael: Yeah.

00:46:40.246 --> 00:46:42.436
David: and that's, that's a
mindset shift sort of thing.

00:46:42.976 --> 00:46:47.036
Just sort of get like, like, get
back to the basics of what you do.

00:46:47.936 --> 00:46:51.746
And, and, and it doesn't matter where
you do it or how you do it, like you said

00:46:51.746 --> 00:46:56.156
before, I do the same things at home as
I did in my ice cream shop, as I do as

00:46:56.156 --> 00:46:57.866
a professor, as I do with my clients.

00:46:58.616 --> 00:47:02.216
And so get back in touch with those
things and the impacts that you have.

00:47:02.966 --> 00:47:05.546
And again, if you need a reminder
of the impacts that you're having or

00:47:05.546 --> 00:47:08.126
somebody to open your eyes, ask people.

00:47:08.336 --> 00:47:09.296
They will tell you.

00:47:09.841 --> 00:47:10.291
Michael: Absolutely.

00:47:10.891 --> 00:47:11.011
Yeah.

00:47:11.011 --> 00:47:11.611
It's so interesting.

00:47:11.851 --> 00:47:14.281
I love how you talk about impacts
'cause, like, you know, in sales they

00:47:14.281 --> 00:47:17.401
say, you know, you're not selling the
benefits, you're selling the outcome.

00:47:17.476 --> 00:47:17.926
David: Yeah.

00:47:18.151 --> 00:47:18.571
Michael: Right?

00:47:18.841 --> 00:47:23.281
And it's essentially the same thing
with your work and with your home life.

00:47:23.281 --> 00:47:24.811
Like, what impact are you making?

00:47:24.811 --> 00:47:27.631
What outcomes are you driving towards?

00:47:27.706 --> 00:47:27.916
David: Yeah.

00:47:28.321 --> 00:47:30.751
Michael: It, and like you said,
if that outcome is to, I just

00:47:30.751 --> 00:47:31.861
wanna impress other people,

00:47:32.326 --> 00:47:32.716
David: Right.

00:47:33.391 --> 00:47:34.111
Michael: That's one issue.

00:47:34.171 --> 00:47:36.781
If the outcomes you're trying to drive
to are things that are meaningful

00:47:36.781 --> 00:47:41.926
to you, well, then you're probably
down the right road in terms of doing

00:47:41.926 --> 00:47:43.666
what is passionate to you, right?

00:47:43.666 --> 00:47:48.886
You've gotta just answer that for yourself
clearly, but I just love how you frame

00:47:48.886 --> 00:47:51.346
that as looking at those impacts, right,

00:47:51.526 --> 00:47:51.856
David: Mm-hmm.

00:47:51.856 --> 00:47:54.526
Michael: as I look at 'em as outcomes
like that you're trying to drive towards.

00:47:54.946 --> 00:47:55.156
David: Yeah.

00:47:55.816 --> 00:47:57.046
Michael: That's so interesting.

00:47:57.886 --> 00:48:02.731
Alright, this is great and really,
it's got my mind thinking in a

00:48:02.731 --> 00:48:06.511
million different directions, but
I want to totally shift things here

00:48:06.511 --> 00:48:09.151
and go into our speed round, which
has nothing to do with anything.

00:48:09.456 --> 00:48:09.746
David: Sure.

00:48:09.751 --> 00:48:10.741
Michael: Five quick questions.

00:48:11.581 --> 00:48:13.921
So if you're ready, the first one
is, what's the first kids show

00:48:13.921 --> 00:48:15.301
theme song that comes to mind?

00:48:16.441 --> 00:48:17.371
David: Oh, that's a hard one.

00:48:17.371 --> 00:48:20.401
So I, you know, the one I rock out to?

00:48:20.701 --> 00:48:22.141
Dinosaur Train.

00:48:22.291 --> 00:48:23.161
Dinosaur Train.

00:48:23.191 --> 00:48:23.791
You know that one?

00:48:24.481 --> 00:48:25.241
Michael: I think so, yeah.

00:48:25.351 --> 00:48:28.261
David: It's the Di-, Dinosaur train,
I think is the name of the show.

00:48:28.261 --> 00:48:28.741
It's great.

00:48:28.801 --> 00:48:29.191
Love it.

00:48:29.611 --> 00:48:30.461
Michael: Was it called Dinosaur Train?

00:48:30.521 --> 00:48:30.756
I couldn't remember.

00:48:30.806 --> 00:48:32.341
David: I, I think, I think so.

00:48:32.371 --> 00:48:33.661
That's definitely the song.

00:48:33.961 --> 00:48:38.101
It, and it, and the show was
literally about dinosaurs on a train.

00:48:38.401 --> 00:48:39.661
You couldn't get a better show.

00:48:42.091 --> 00:48:42.451
Michael: Awesome.

00:48:42.451 --> 00:48:42.841
Love that.

00:48:43.261 --> 00:48:44.731
What was your very first job?

00:48:45.571 --> 00:48:51.046
David: So my very first job was
cleaning up poop in a kennel.

00:48:52.231 --> 00:48:52.651
Michael: Wow.

00:48:52.881 --> 00:48:53.941
That's a tough first job.

00:48:54.061 --> 00:48:54.571
David: Yeah.

00:48:54.601 --> 00:48:55.081
Yeah.

00:48:56.266 --> 00:48:58.336
Michael: Would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:48:58.336 --> 00:49:00.496
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:49:01.771 --> 00:49:04.501
David: Oh, I would definitely
do the toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:49:04.906 --> 00:49:05.476
Michael: Why is that?

00:49:06.781 --> 00:49:07.771
David: Sounds cute.

00:49:08.071 --> 00:49:12.481
And I, you know, my first job
being cleaning up poop, I couldn't

00:49:12.481 --> 00:49:16.351
even like, I couldn't even
fathom a T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:49:17.511 --> 00:49:18.061
Michael: Fair point.

00:49:18.441 --> 00:49:19.191
Very fair point.

00:49:19.751 --> 00:49:21.261
What's your go-to karaoke song?

00:49:22.906 --> 00:49:26.116
David: Oh, my go-to karaoke
song would probably be

00:49:28.246 --> 00:49:31.966
the Fresh Prince song in West
Philadelphia, but only, only

00:49:31.966 --> 00:49:35.806
because it is literally the only
song that I know every word too.

00:49:38.416 --> 00:49:40.216
Michael: I don't fault
you for that one bit.

00:49:40.216 --> 00:49:42.796
That's probably one of the very few
songs I know all the words to, also,

00:49:42.976 --> 00:49:44.596
and that's a great choice for karaoke.

00:49:44.941 --> 00:49:45.231
David: Yeah.

00:49:46.016 --> 00:49:46.566
Michael: Aright, last one.

00:49:46.576 --> 00:49:48.406
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:49:48.406 --> 00:49:49.696
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:49:51.096 --> 00:49:53.206
David: Alright, so I hope this
doesn't make me sound creepy

00:49:53.206 --> 00:49:54.736
because I felt creepy in the moment.

00:49:55.036 --> 00:49:59.206
So we were doing a Cold Stone
catering event at a school, and I

00:49:59.206 --> 00:50:04.201
had washed the like tablecloth and
stuff in my home washing machine.

00:50:04.471 --> 00:50:08.371
And so we're standing in this elementary
school and it's me and my crew members

00:50:08.371 --> 00:50:12.811
and we take the tablecloth out and lay
it down on the table and go like this.

00:50:13.081 --> 00:50:16.621
And a pair of, she was
probably like five at the time.

00:50:16.621 --> 00:50:19.381
My 5-year-old daughter's
panties came flying out into

00:50:19.381 --> 00:50:21.036
the air and I'm like, oh my God.

00:50:21.366 --> 00:50:23.946
So I grabbed them and
shoved them in my pocket.

00:50:24.246 --> 00:50:27.786
And the rest of the day that the,
that we're catering for like two

00:50:27.786 --> 00:50:32.646
hours, I'm thinking I've got little
girl panties in my pocket while

00:50:32.646 --> 00:50:34.896
working in an elementary school.

00:50:35.076 --> 00:50:36.906
This is not going to end well.

00:50:37.776 --> 00:50:41.076
So, yeah, so I felt like a
creep, but I promise I'm not.

00:50:42.676 --> 00:50:43.216
Michael: Wow.

00:50:44.546 --> 00:50:45.796
David: Ever get that answer before?

00:50:46.516 --> 00:50:47.296
Michael: I have not.

00:50:47.476 --> 00:50:49.876
There are very few answers
that have left me speechless.

00:50:52.501 --> 00:50:53.221
Well done.

00:50:53.461 --> 00:50:54.286
David: God, thank you.

00:50:54.286 --> 00:50:54.331
Thank you.

00:50:55.351 --> 00:50:58.351
Michael: That was, wow,
impressive, I think.

00:50:58.366 --> 00:50:59.381
I, I don't even know what the right...

00:50:59.431 --> 00:51:00.541
David: I don't know if it's impressive.

00:51:00.901 --> 00:51:01.141
Michael: Yeah.

00:51:02.101 --> 00:51:03.741
I mean, you got through it, so,

00:51:03.826 --> 00:51:04.681
David: Yeah, yeah.

00:51:04.711 --> 00:51:05.611
Michael: that part is impressive.

00:51:05.741 --> 00:51:06.341
I'm not sure what I would have done.

00:51:06.391 --> 00:51:09.051
David: I, I was just horrified they
were gonna somehow fall out of my

00:51:09.051 --> 00:51:10.531
pocket, and I was gonna end up in jail.

00:51:10.711 --> 00:51:10.891
That's.

00:51:12.966 --> 00:51:14.701
Michael: Yeah, that's wow.

00:51:15.351 --> 00:51:16.321
Wow is all I can say.

00:51:16.561 --> 00:51:16.801
David: Yeah.

00:51:18.466 --> 00:51:19.996
Michael: That is really tough
to follow anything up with.

00:51:20.176 --> 00:51:21.836
Before we wrap up...

00:51:21.886 --> 00:51:24.806
David: Yeah, so if you're looking
for an IO consultant, call me.

00:51:26.886 --> 00:51:29.556
I promise, no underwear in my pockets.

00:51:31.546 --> 00:51:32.386
Michael: That's, that's a good thing.

00:51:33.916 --> 00:51:36.976
Before we wrap up, I do wanna make sure
that people know where they can go next

00:51:36.976 --> 00:51:41.116
if, you know, what you, we talked about
today resonated with them, where can

00:51:41.116 --> 00:51:42.736
people learn more about you and your work?

00:51:43.276 --> 00:51:43.636
David: Sure.

00:51:43.636 --> 00:51:45.886
So, my website's a great place to start.

00:51:45.946 --> 00:51:49.306
It's www.davidshar.com.

00:51:50.716 --> 00:51:51.766
What, that's one of my websites.

00:51:51.796 --> 00:51:53.326
And then LinkedIn.

00:51:53.676 --> 00:51:55.206
I'm very active on LinkedIn.

00:51:55.206 --> 00:51:57.486
Love to have conversations on there.

00:51:57.486 --> 00:52:01.416
So, if somebody just wants to
continue the conversation, maybe not

00:52:01.416 --> 00:52:04.656
about the last story I shared, but
about anything else I'm open to talk

00:52:04.656 --> 00:52:07.031
about, they can find me on LinkedIn.

00:52:07.771 --> 00:52:08.131
Michael: Awesome.

00:52:08.131 --> 00:52:09.541
I'll put those in the show notes for sure.

00:52:09.901 --> 00:52:12.391
And David, I really appreciate
you joining me today.

00:52:12.391 --> 00:52:14.641
This conversation was fascinating to me.

00:52:15.121 --> 00:52:16.531
It just blew by so fast.

00:52:17.371 --> 00:52:23.521
Your research and the way that you kind
of put these real-world experiences

00:52:23.551 --> 00:52:28.711
into things that feel human, not
theoretical, like usually when I

00:52:28.711 --> 00:52:32.641
hear about research, it's like it's
hard for me to relate to, right?

00:52:32.846 --> 00:52:33.266
David: Mm-hmm.

00:52:33.301 --> 00:52:34.441
Michael: It doesn't feel that human.

00:52:34.441 --> 00:52:36.571
It feels like something
I read in a textbook.

00:52:36.901 --> 00:52:37.141
David: Yeah.

00:52:37.416 --> 00:52:42.436
Michael: I think as you talked today,
it was like, yeah, that is so relatable.

00:52:42.696 --> 00:52:44.716
So, I really appreciate
how practical and grounded

00:52:46.581 --> 00:52:46.991
David: Thank you.

00:52:47.656 --> 00:52:50.176
Michael: You are and how you've
talked about everything today and

00:52:50.806 --> 00:52:53.056
as a dad navigating this yourself,
the, you know, I think this

00:52:53.056 --> 00:52:55.036
perspective carries a lot of weight.

00:52:55.036 --> 00:52:56.146
So thank you again for being here.

00:52:56.146 --> 00:52:56.956
I appreciate it.

00:52:57.166 --> 00:52:59.566
And finally, before you go, if
you're a dad listening to this

00:52:59.566 --> 00:53:02.326
and you find yourself in between,
navigating a season that feels

00:53:02.326 --> 00:53:04.006
different, head to gaptogig.com.

00:53:04.006 --> 00:53:05.516
Subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:53:05.956 --> 00:53:08.956
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:53:08.956 --> 00:53:10.186
and what really matters right now.

00:53:10.636 --> 00:53:13.156
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:53:13.156 --> 00:53:14.116
dad who might need to hear it.

00:53:14.476 --> 00:53:16.126
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:53:16.306 --> 00:53:18.226
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.