Mitesh Khatri on Becoming More Present as a Working Dad

WEBVTT

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Mitesh: We're creatures of habits.

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We don't know half the time what we're
doing because our brain is getting

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rewarded for with the dopamine, serotonin.

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And if it's a behavior that is,
that you can't, you know, stop

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doing, and then in the long term
it's having an impact on you, you

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know, Gabor Maté talks about that.

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I think that's, that's an
addiction, whether it's alcohol

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or, or smoking or it's your phone.

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And I think we do it
automatically but don't want to

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sort of admit ourselves to it.

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And, you know, the flow-on effects on
our kids is like, not just like the time

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on your phone, but what it's telling
them in the room is like, "This thing

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is so important to me right now that
I can't even engage with you," right?

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today I'm excited to welcome

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Mitesh Khatri to the show.

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Mitesh is a Melbourne-based father of
two, corporate strategist, and author

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of "Fight or Father: Using Calm to Stop
Reacting and Start Connecting." For

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years, Mitesh believed he was doing
what a good dad was supposed to do: work

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hard, provide for his family, and be
there when he could, but despite being

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physically present, he realized he was
often emotionally absent, carrying the

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stress and pressure of work into the
moments that mattered most at home.

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Everything changed when his six-year-old
son looked up and said six simple

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words: "You're always on your phone,
Dad." That moment sparked a journey

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into nervous system regulation,
emotional presence, and what it

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really means to show up as a father.

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Today, he leads a running group for dads,
ran the Gold Coast Marathon to raise money

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for Beyond Blue, and is helping fathers
stop reacting and start connecting.

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Mitesh, welcome to Gap to Gig.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Thanks for being here.

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Mitesh: Thanks so much,
Michael, for having me on.

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It's been, it's a real
pleasure to be here, and I'm

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excited to talk to you today.

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Michael: I appreciate that.

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So I wanna start with those words
from your son, because I think

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a lot of dads listening will
recognize themselves in that moment.

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Your son said that you're
always on your phone.

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Take us back to that moment.

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What hit you so hard
about hearing those words?

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Mitesh: That was one of those, probably
one of two key breaking points for me.

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So you know, I think as fathers,
and modern fatherhood has a lot

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of pressure in itself, right?

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Modern parenting has a lot of pressure.

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Every generation faces its challenges.

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I think, for me, if I think about
that moment, taking, taking myself

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back there, you know, I was standing
between the bench top, kitchen bench

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top and the dining table, and it
was a Saturday afternoon, right?

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So I'm not, I'm not meant to be working.

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I work dur-, well, during the week.

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I wasn't even doing work.

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I was on my phone between the
bench top and the kitchen table.

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My son was on the kitchen table.

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He was doing some Lego or, or something.

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And that was part of the problem.

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I didn't really know what he was doing.

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I was scrolling Instagram, you
know, the usual blur post that

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you'll forget in 10 seconds.

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And he looked up at me and he said,
almost like he was describing the

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weather, not angry, you know, not having
no, no volume in his voice, "You're

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always on your phone, Dad." And he,
there was this, you know, I, I, I, I

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heard him and I almost, I was automatic
and defensive and I said, "I'm not."

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And clearly I had the phone in my hand.

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Michael: Right.

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Mitesh: Then, and then I realized
what I'd said and I said, "I just

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need to do this one thing." Right?

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I'm sure many of you, the listeners
will, it was, probably feel themselves

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doing a similar thing to their kids.

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And I started scrolling a few
more seconds, and then I felt

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this heavy weight on my chest.

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You know, just my body tensing up, a
little shake in my hand, and I put the

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phone down, not because I'd finished
what I was doing, because I could feel

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it coming, that guilt, the, the overwhelm
in my body around, you know, what my

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son had just said, and he'd seen me more
clearly than probably I'd seen myself.

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And then I started thinking, "Well,
how long have I been doing this?"

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and it took him to this moment
to actually tell me that as well.

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So that started this massive
journey around understanding myself.

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Why was I there in the room
but emotionally absent and

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not actually present with him?

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And actually even asking
him what he's doing.

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I mean, we wouldn't do that
to our loved ones, right?

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Be in the same room with them
and be completely disengaged

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and, and look for an avenue out.

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But we do that so often and
often I think we give ourselves

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excuses for why we're doing that.

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So that was a key moment.

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That was a big wake-up call for me.

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Michael: Absolutely.

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That's,

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it, I guess, in the way that your son
presented to you so matter-of-factly,

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that it was just like maybe a,
a shock to the system of like,

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Mitesh: Yeah.

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Michael: A-, and for us as dads,
like you said, it is so easy,

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especially in today's world where we
all have smartphones, where alw-, we

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always have screens in front of us,

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Mitesh: it

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Michael: is so easy to fall into
the trap of looking at the device in

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front of us 'cause it's constantly
changing, it's constantly showing us

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new things instead of in-, appreciating
what or who is in front of us, right?

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And there are those times, there
are those moments, yes, it, there's

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nothing wrong with spending time
on your phone, to a degree, right?

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But there is, is it the best decision to
always put your device before your child

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or before the people you care about?

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And it doesn't seem like, at least
when I've caught myself doing it,

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it's like I don't realize I'm doing it

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Mitesh: That's right.

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Hmm.

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Michael: At that time, right?

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It's like you think you're
doing something different.

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You don't realize that you're really
just doom scrolling or reading, whatever

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it is that you're doing on your phone.

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But there's something else going on
that's more important, and there's a

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time and a place for using your screen.

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There's a time and a place
for, for not using your screen.

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And I think, you know, we only have
so much time with our kids before they

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Mitesh: leave

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Michael: home and become independent
and go out on their own, whether they

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go to school or they, you know, take on
their own jobs and they move out into

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different houses, into their own house.

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They…

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Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: We have a
limited number of hours,

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Mitesh: That's right.

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Michael: And how many of those hours
do we want to waste on our phones?

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Because once they're out of the
house, you'll have a lot more

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time to look at your phone.

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Now, I, I know it's easier to
say that, and I've certainly

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Mitesh: That's right.

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Michael: Not been perfect in doing
that, right, of like, not, o-, of

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putting my phone aside to make sure
I focus and concentrate on my kids.

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But when I, as my kids get older,
I'm, you know, taking a step back and

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taking some perspect-, putting some
perspective on, like, what did I do?

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What could I have done?

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It's like, I only have
so much time with them.

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Mitesh: That's right, yeah.

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Michael: How do I make most of that time?

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And almost every time, that answer is
not going to be spend time on my phone

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while they're, while I'm with them, right?

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Mitesh: No, and, and Michael, I
think you rationally all makes sense.

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I think we're all rational, right,
people, you know, you'd like to think.

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And well, I mean, we know these
things are not good for us.

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We know alcohol's not good for us.

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We know smoking's not good for us, right?

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Okay, moderation is good.

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Everything in moderation
to a degree, right?

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And it's, the, the challenge is our
bodies are wired to form habits, right?

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Everyone's read, I'm sure
heard about Atomic Habits.

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We're creatures of habits.

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We don't know half the time what
we're doing because our brain

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is getting rewarded for, with
the dopamine, the serotonin.

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And if it's a behavior that is that you
can't, you know, stop doing and then

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in the long term is having an impact on
you, I know Gabor Maté talks about that.

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I think that's, that's an
addiction, whether it's alcohol

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or, or smoking or it's your phone.

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And I think we do it automatically, but
don't wanna sort of admit ourselves to it.

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And, you know, the flow on effects on
our kids is like, not just like the time

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on your phone, but what it's telling
them in the room is like, "This thing

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is so important to me right now that
I can't even engage with you," right?

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They pick up everything.

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Like, they're sensing the environment,
you know, and they're picking that up.

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And I think there might be some
listeners of yours with older

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kids in their teenage years.

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You know, it's not too late as well.

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I've got kids that are eight years old,
my son now, and, and six, my daughter.

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And I think they're always watching.

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They're still watching you in terms
of picking up so much from you.

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And you're one of their key ro-, role
models, if not the role model for them.

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So I think you know, that behavior
matters and, and getting conscious

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around it because that also has flow
on effects onto, you know, problems,

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you know, child behavioral problems
start with those sort of things.

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Studies have shown that parents that
spend more time on their phone have

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kids that have behavioral problems more,
act up more because, you know, it's

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giving them that disconnection message.

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So I think there's a lot to it.

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I think it's easy to rationalize.

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Like you say, let's not put our
phone away or whatever it is.

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But ultimately, we're creatures of
habit, and I think we have to really

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go deep and unpack ourselves and
figure out, why am I doing this?

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What am I actually really looking for?

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And, and yeah work from there.

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Michael: Yeah, I appreciate how you
point out that the impact is more

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than just in the moment, right?

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It could be, lead to behavioral issues,
it could lead to all sorts of things.

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But there's also the positive effect
of demonstrating for your kids good

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behaviors, and also being there for them,
being active with them, being present

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with them, I think, it oftentimes helps
build their confidence and gives them

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other positive social skills to take on.

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Whereas if we're constantly ignoring
them, they might feel like they have

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to overcompensate to get attention
or to do other things, right?

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So the impact that we have,
there's kind of two impacts, right?

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There's impact in the moment, they
feel ignored, but then what are

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the long-term effects of that?

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I don't know if we know precisely
what those are, but there is,

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Mitesh: That's right.

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Michael: there's challenges that we might
be creating by not being actively present.

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Mitesh: Yeah.

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I mean, there's lots of, there's lots
of science out there that shows, you

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know, we, we're not, we're doing a
disservice to our children the more

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disengaged we are with them, right?

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So, and it's easy to say and, and
sometimes people need practical tools and

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ways to move themselves forward, right?

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How, how, how do I be present?

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Everyone talks about presence,
but how do I become present?

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Because, you know, I've got so much
going on in my head, I'm drowning.

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Work's relentless.

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There's deadlines on deadlines.

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There's a proposal due.

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There's a client that wants this.

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I'm managing a team.

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There's expectations.

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There's wife that wants me
to do A, B, C or partner.

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You know, h-h- I, I maybe not taking care
of myself how I want to from an exercise

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perspective or what am I eating, what's
good for me, what's bad for me, bills.

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There's so many things going on in
our head and you feel, well, how do

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I just shut that all down or bring
that down to a level where it's in

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the background and I can actually
be here with my son or daughter?

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I think that's the real challenging
part that we have to work on.

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Michael: Absolutely.

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You bring up a, a point of like
there's more than just the moments

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we have with our kids, right?

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It's also the work and your, your
spouse and your, I mean, just the

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people in your orbit, like your
friends and extended family and stuff.

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And, you know, I think a lot of dads
tell themselves that they're working

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hard for their families, right?

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That like, "I am doing what I have to
do at work to make sure that I provide."

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But you have told me before that,
like, you realize that there,

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the difference between providing
and being present, right, they're

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not necessarily the same thing.

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At what point did you realize,
like, the separation between

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providing and being present?

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Mitesh: Yeah, I think, you know,
that moment that I talked about

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with the phone, that, that started
a big journey of deep reflection.

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And I, I'd been probably journaling
on and off for five years.

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I joined the men's group about five
or six years ago when my, my son's

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eight now, so would've been longer.

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Seven years ago when my son was born,
I, I was just completely lost in the

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dark around, you know, you read all
the books, you get all the advice.

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When you hold your son or daughter
or your, your child for the first

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time you know, that feeling that
probably isn't many feelings is

00:13:29.029 --> 00:13:30.249
gonna come close to that, right?

00:13:30.309 --> 00:13:32.199
And you feel absolutely amazing.

00:13:33.229 --> 00:13:36.609
And people are helping you out,
your family, your friends, the, the,

00:13:36.649 --> 00:13:38.129
the great staff at the hospital.

00:13:38.159 --> 00:13:41.969
And very quickly over weeks and months,
you realize you're on, you're on your own.

00:13:41.969 --> 00:13:43.229
You're learning this on your own.

00:13:44.829 --> 00:13:49.149
Often sleep deprived not thinking
straight, not eating well, not taking

00:13:49.159 --> 00:13:53.489
care of yourself trying to work
out what your, your child needs.

00:13:53.539 --> 00:13:58.419
And, you know, I, I wanted help at the
time so relating with some other dads,

00:13:58.469 --> 00:14:01.379
and I wish there were more podcasts
and things like this around at that

00:14:01.379 --> 00:14:02.779
point, what you're doing, Michael.

00:14:03.169 --> 00:14:08.209
'Cause I think, you know, as dads,
we don't voice our thoughts and

00:14:08.209 --> 00:14:11.779
feelings and emotions, let's call
it, you know, the softer stuff.

00:14:12.009 --> 00:14:14.969
It's you know, we can get into all
things around mac-, masculinity

00:14:15.159 --> 00:14:18.359
and what modern masculinity looks
like, but I think because of

00:14:18.359 --> 00:14:20.269
that, we bottle things up, right?

00:14:20.499 --> 00:14:24.439
And it becomes a pressure valve,
you know, it's not getting released.

00:14:24.709 --> 00:14:28.349
And then there'll be a moment where
we just let it all out and break down.

00:14:28.369 --> 00:14:28.759
So,

00:14:30.999 --> 00:14:36.839
you know, that, there's been sort of
years of sort of reflection and, and,

00:14:36.839 --> 00:14:39.029
and journaling and talking to other dads.

00:14:39.829 --> 00:14:44.749
But I think, you know, I, one of those
moments, like that, that moment with

00:14:44.789 --> 00:14:48.869
my son and then, then thinking about,
"Okay, well, I'm giving him everything.

00:14:48.879 --> 00:14:50.519
A roof over his head.

00:14:50.929 --> 00:14:52.829
He's got good education he goes to.

00:14:52.869 --> 00:14:55.719
He's happy, he's healthy,
food on the table.

00:14:56.429 --> 00:15:02.169
I'm sacrificing, I'm providing." And,
and I had to sort of really dig into,

00:15:02.169 --> 00:15:04.709
well, w-, why do I feel that's enough?

00:15:04.899 --> 00:15:06.209
Or why, is that enough?

00:15:06.369 --> 00:15:07.689
You know, there is an element of that.

00:15:07.689 --> 00:15:10.669
There's, there's a lot of history
in that story, right, in terms of

00:15:11.679 --> 00:15:18.269
sacrifice equals love and it equals
working hard and, and a fridge that's

00:15:18.269 --> 00:15:20.229
full, an education that's paid.

00:15:20.699 --> 00:15:24.789
And that story, you know, a mortgage
that's paid off in, in 15, 20 years

00:15:24.789 --> 00:15:29.619
or whatever it is, or longer these
days, that story we've all been taught.

00:15:29.909 --> 00:15:32.549
And, and I think we have to sort of
unpack that story and go, there's,

00:15:32.599 --> 00:15:36.909
there's some good merit in that
story, but perhaps it also detracts

00:15:36.909 --> 00:15:42.269
away from a new or an altered story
we can create with our children.

00:15:42.279 --> 00:15:45.879
Because do they really, of course,
they appreciate that to a degree.

00:15:45.889 --> 00:15:48.299
If you just think about Maslow's
hierarchy of needs, you need

00:15:48.299 --> 00:15:49.559
your basic needs, right?

00:15:50.569 --> 00:15:55.519
But beyond a point, they're not gonna
really care about the brand of clothes

00:15:55.529 --> 00:15:58.539
you wear, the car you drive, the
watch you wear, the house you have.

00:16:00.139 --> 00:16:01.739
You know, they just really
want you to be there.

00:16:02.539 --> 00:16:04.209
And they're not really gonna
remember what you achieved at

00:16:04.209 --> 00:16:05.839
work as well, if, if they are.

00:16:06.689 --> 00:16:12.399
So I think it's, it's really going deep
into that story and going, what, what

00:16:12.399 --> 00:16:14.169
story do you want your kids to remember?

00:16:14.349 --> 00:16:17.719
Do they, do they want, you know, you,
do you want that sort of sacrifice

00:16:17.719 --> 00:16:22.489
story and, and that, that is, that,
that has importance to a degree, right?

00:16:22.519 --> 00:16:25.979
Or do you want to sort of start to
create a different story where your

00:16:25.979 --> 00:16:27.449
kids remember you for something else?

00:16:27.479 --> 00:16:32.699
They remember you for being around
teaching them, you know, real

00:16:32.699 --> 00:16:35.799
life skills and, and, and being
with them and playing with them.

00:16:35.929 --> 00:16:39.209
Often, you know, we've all
heard sort of kids' sort of

00:16:39.219 --> 00:16:41.079
language of talk is, is play.

00:16:41.189 --> 00:16:45.999
And I'm not talking about sort of
taking them to dance practice or soccer

00:16:45.999 --> 00:16:48.269
practice or, you know, piano lessons.

00:16:48.319 --> 00:16:49.599
That's very structured time.

00:16:50.069 --> 00:16:53.519
What's that unstructured time where you
literally are on the floor with them

00:16:54.069 --> 00:17:00.039
playing dollhouses, doing cafes, building
Lego, you know, doing some coloring?

00:17:00.469 --> 00:17:02.899
That time is the real
connection time, right?

00:17:02.939 --> 00:17:07.529
And if you are there but thinking about
something else, you're not really there.

00:17:08.119 --> 00:17:09.339
And that's what we have to do.

00:17:09.339 --> 00:17:13.569
And I, I, I, the journey took me to look
somewhere I hadn't thought of looking

00:17:14.919 --> 00:17:18.899
which is, which we can talk about, is, is
really looking b-, into my body, right?

00:17:18.899 --> 00:17:24.839
I thought I could just think myself to
be calm and be present, but you, you

00:17:24.839 --> 00:17:28.919
really can't because your body con-,
your body and mind are one thing.

00:17:28.929 --> 00:17:34.899
And, and if you have built up stress,
anxieties, fears, things you're thinking

00:17:34.899 --> 00:17:37.689
about, if you don't release them,
they're, they're gonna come through

00:17:37.689 --> 00:17:40.529
in other ways by you effectively
being disengaged in the room.

00:17:41.421 --> 00:17:41.921
Michael: Absolutely.

00:17:41.981 --> 00:17:42.261
Absolutely.

00:17:42.281 --> 00:17:43.311
I want to get to that in a moment.

00:17:43.591 --> 00:17:46.221
I d-, but I want to point out something
you said just a little bit earlier of like

00:17:46.597 --> 00:17:46.607
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:17:47.371 --> 00:17:50.111
Michael: What your kids are
going to remember, right?

00:17:50.141 --> 00:17:54.461
And as my kids get older, what
I'm learning is they remember

00:17:55.081 --> 00:18:00.821
specific moments, not particular,
the particular achievements, but

00:18:00.821 --> 00:18:02.591
not like what I accomplish at work.

00:18:02.951 --> 00:18:04.421
They're not gonna remember
if I closed a deal or not.

00:18:05.117 --> 00:18:05.407
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:18:05.461 --> 00:18:09.431
Michael: They are gonna remember that
time that we made dinner together and,

00:18:09.681 --> 00:18:11.211
you know, something funny happened, right?

00:18:11.231 --> 00:18:16.741
Or they're gonna remember that time that
we took out the Slip 'N Slide in the

00:18:16.741 --> 00:18:22.641
backyard and dad joined in and I, you
know, myself soaking wet with them, like,

00:18:23.245 --> 00:18:23.605
Mitesh: Yeah, yeah.

00:18:23.961 --> 00:18:25.831
Michael: playing with the, the
water toys in the backyard.

00:18:26.241 --> 00:18:27.621
They remember those moments.

00:18:28.251 --> 00:18:32.271
They don't remember whether I responded to
an email before I got on this call, right?

00:18:32.531 --> 00:18:32.881
So,

00:18:33.651 --> 00:18:34.061
Mitesh: Absolutely.

00:18:34.064 --> 00:18:37.944
Michael: a certain perspective that
is very hard, was very hard for

00:18:37.954 --> 00:18:45.314
me at least, to recognize in the
moment of like, what really does

00:18:45.314 --> 00:18:47.254
matter at the end of the day, right?

00:18:47.834 --> 00:18:50.614
Yes, we got to g-, meet
our basic needs, right, but

00:18:50.626 --> 00:18:50.686
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:18:51.744 --> 00:18:56.724
Michael: the things that are going to
last, the memories, the, the experiences,

00:18:57.576 --> 00:18:57.686
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:18:58.730 --> 00:19:03.150
Michael: those tend to be much
more important than whether or not

00:19:03.790 --> 00:19:11.540
I respond to a client at 5:30 PM
or the next morning at 8:00 AM.

00:19:11.882 --> 00:19:13.792
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:19:13.792 --> 00:19:14.172
That's right.

00:19:14.430 --> 00:19:15.580
Michael: Right, so it's like
trying to figure out what

00:19:15.580 --> 00:19:17.640
that, where the balance is.

00:19:17.640 --> 00:19:21.220
Because yes, I do want to do work that
means something to me and that produces

00:19:21.220 --> 00:19:26.940
something that I'm proud of, but at the
end of the day, how I accomplish that is

00:19:26.960 --> 00:19:31.980
different than what I want to do at home.

00:19:31.980 --> 00:19:39.260
So, like, to me, family comes before
my business, so it, it's like, do I,

00:19:40.900 --> 00:19:42.310
do I need to get this thing done now?

00:19:42.390 --> 00:19:43.100
Can I get it done?

00:19:43.100 --> 00:19:43.550
Yes.

00:19:43.560 --> 00:19:45.190
If not, can it wait?

00:19:45.860 --> 00:19:49.500
You know, what is important
in the moment, right?

00:19:49.620 --> 00:19:53.560
And then, you know, you, you talk
about this like pressure release

00:19:53.630 --> 00:19:57.140
valve if, 'cause you're building
up stress all the time, right?

00:19:57.140 --> 00:19:59.810
So it's like making those
decisions become stressful, right?

00:19:59.810 --> 00:20:00.120
Of like,

00:20:00.322 --> 00:20:00.772
Mitesh: That's right.

00:20:00.970 --> 00:20:04.230
Michael: what do, you know,
which thing do I choose now?

00:20:04.240 --> 00:20:05.690
What do I need to do?

00:20:05.760 --> 00:20:09.380
Even though I know what the correct
answer is most of the time, but then

00:20:09.380 --> 00:20:12.030
it's like, okay, well, if I don't do,
if I don't get back to this customer

00:20:12.030 --> 00:20:14.440
now, am I, are they going to be upset?

00:20:14.440 --> 00:20:16.160
Are they going to go
look for somebody else?

00:20:16.420 --> 00:20:16.850
That type of thing.

00:20:16.870 --> 00:20:20.780
And you start to build these things
out, and then it's like, okay, well,

00:20:21.040 --> 00:20:24.510
am I doing everything I should be
doing for my kids, or could I, you

00:20:24.510 --> 00:20:26.060
know, be spending more time with them?

00:20:26.420 --> 00:20:27.780
Could I be doing something for my spouse?

00:20:29.280 --> 00:20:32.080
And then I forge-, you forget about
like taking care of yourself too,

00:20:32.080 --> 00:20:34.560
right, 'cause if you don't take care
of yourself, it's hard to do the other.

00:20:34.560 --> 00:20:36.120
It's hard to, to keep up at work.

00:20:36.120 --> 00:20:39.540
It's hard to take care of those
you care about, of your family.

00:20:40.300 --> 00:20:42.130
And so if you don't get rid of that
stress, if you don't take care of

00:20:42.130 --> 00:20:45.430
yourself, you're not gonna show up for the
others that, that are important to you.

00:20:46.130 --> 00:20:53.420
And, you know, you often talk about state,
being the real issue, not time, right?

00:20:53.430 --> 00:20:55.090
Like I can make my decisions on

00:20:55.118 --> 00:20:55.168
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:20:55.610 --> 00:20:58.330
Michael: like what I'm gonna do
in the next hour, but there's

00:20:58.330 --> 00:21:00.210
also this idea of state.

00:21:00.260 --> 00:21:01.960
Can you explain what you mean by that?

00:21:02.814 --> 00:21:03.094
Mitesh: Hmm.

00:21:03.884 --> 00:21:07.864
Well, I think the likes of Tony Robbins
probably first talked about state, you

00:21:07.864 --> 00:21:13.204
know, many years ago, and I, I'm, I'm
sure like many of your listeners probably

00:21:13.204 --> 00:21:17.564
read, have read the book "Awaken the
Giant Within" by Tony Robbins, right?

00:21:17.664 --> 00:21:19.424
Probably 30, 40 years old now.

00:21:20.844 --> 00:21:26.604
And, and state is, is really,
you know, your physiology.

00:21:26.614 --> 00:21:27.514
How are you turning up?

00:21:28.094 --> 00:21:35.204
And I think most dads looked at where am
I gonna make time for my partner or my

00:21:35.244 --> 00:21:38.394
kids to do A, B, C, whatever it is, right?

00:21:38.454 --> 00:21:44.144
And I think, you know, you can often
give your kids like a whole hour, but

00:21:44.144 --> 00:21:48.674
you're still like wounded, distracted,
snapping at things, and ultimately

00:21:48.694 --> 00:21:50.484
it doesn't count for anything,
right, 'cause you're not there.

00:21:51.704 --> 00:21:57.524
But if you give them the genuine 15,
20 minutes of playtime where you are

00:21:57.554 --> 00:22:03.394
there with them, maybe it's just 10
minutes, it's the quant-, it's not

00:22:03.394 --> 00:22:06.914
the quantity, it, it's the quality
of time you're giving them, right?

00:22:07.534 --> 00:22:11.734
Because they, firstly, they don't
really have any sense of time anyway.

00:22:11.914 --> 00:22:14.204
You know, you tell them five minutes,
we're, we're going out the door,

00:22:14.204 --> 00:22:15.234
they have no idea what that is.

00:22:16.144 --> 00:22:23.584
So I think fixing the, your state
really goes back to, you know our

00:22:23.654 --> 00:22:29.824
ancestral times and really working out,
you know, our, our, our, our bodies.

00:22:29.824 --> 00:22:34.944
How do we turn up in a state where
we can actually be present and, and

00:22:34.944 --> 00:22:36.444
connect with our loved ones, right?

00:22:36.454 --> 00:22:39.914
So, like I said, there's a
physiological reasons for it.

00:22:39.914 --> 00:22:41.774
So we think about day after day.

00:22:42.174 --> 00:22:46.814
We all, you know, most households, I
should say, probably have, you know,

00:22:46.814 --> 00:22:50.394
if you're in a family situation, then
you, you probably have both partners

00:22:50.394 --> 00:22:52.344
working or at least one point five.

00:22:53.474 --> 00:22:55.994
It's, it's, it's not easy in
today's modern life to just,

00:22:56.074 --> 00:22:57.174
you know, be off one income.

00:22:57.644 --> 00:22:59.574
But day, day after day,
you're under pressure.

00:23:00.064 --> 00:23:05.074
Your body is carrying stress
from the pressure of work, right?

00:23:05.134 --> 00:23:10.434
So, you know, back in hunter-gatherer
times, what did that look like?

00:23:10.524 --> 00:23:14.144
I think we've all heard the story where,
you know, there's a lion and we're,

00:23:14.324 --> 00:23:16.844
we're running away from that lion, right?

00:23:16.894 --> 00:23:19.584
And, and there's a fight or
flight response when that happens.

00:23:19.814 --> 00:23:22.264
We're often running away,
probably not fighting that lion.

00:23:22.744 --> 00:23:23.454
So what happens?

00:23:23.454 --> 00:23:28.564
We run away and hopefully we escape,
and then our body releases all that

00:23:29.604 --> 00:23:33.574
cortisol, adrenaline that's built
up, and it tells itself, "Now you're

00:23:33.574 --> 00:23:36.644
calm. Now you can go back to what
you were doing." You know, being with

00:23:36.644 --> 00:23:38.074
your loved ones around the tribe.

00:23:39.184 --> 00:23:46.142
You know, talking connecting, cooking
dinner, whatever it is, but the lion

00:23:46.142 --> 00:23:48.242
doesn't exist in today's modern age.

00:23:48.362 --> 00:23:49.612
It just comes in other forms.

00:23:50.312 --> 00:23:54.732
It's emails, it's deadlines,
it's bills, right?

00:23:54.792 --> 00:24:00.362
It's what's in the fridge, what's
for dinner tonight, what, who needs

00:24:00.362 --> 00:24:05.472
new school shoes, what's going on
on the weekend around around sports.

00:24:07.242 --> 00:24:10.822
And, and so all this stress, it
could be, you know, so many things.

00:24:10.862 --> 00:24:14.802
The proposal that's due, the
client that's wanting ABC.

00:24:15.502 --> 00:24:18.732
So our, our body is
actually holding on to this

00:24:21.022 --> 00:24:21.702
stress.

00:24:21.822 --> 00:24:25.092
The cortisol builds up and it
shows up in other ways, right?

00:24:25.112 --> 00:24:29.502
So our back's hurting, our, our,
our knee's a little bit sore

00:24:30.242 --> 00:24:31.792
or we're not sleeping as well.

00:24:32.422 --> 00:24:35.402
And ultimately, we get up at two or
three or four AM and think, "Well,

00:24:35.402 --> 00:24:36.962
why can't I put myself back to sleep?"

00:24:37.002 --> 00:24:40.772
Because your cortisol is still elevated
from the day and you haven't released it.

00:24:41.022 --> 00:24:42.942
You haven't re-, you haven't
told your body to come back

00:24:42.942 --> 00:24:45.942
down into a regulated state.

00:24:46.612 --> 00:24:50.552
And, you know, the science behind it,
you, you, you know, I'm sure you're

00:24:50.712 --> 00:24:54.682
listeners know elements to this, but
polyvagal theory really goes into it.

00:24:54.692 --> 00:24:58.422
You know, our body's nervous
system, when the lion comes,

00:24:58.942 --> 00:25:00.462
it, there's a stimulus, right?

00:25:00.462 --> 00:25:01.282
There's a reaction.

00:25:01.772 --> 00:25:06.022
Our safe, calm, safe, and secure
sort of state is the base state.

00:25:06.282 --> 00:25:07.602
That's where we can think clearly, right?

00:25:07.602 --> 00:25:12.422
That's where the blood is in front,
in, in our prefrontal cortex, right?

00:25:12.422 --> 00:25:13.472
We can think clearly.

00:25:13.692 --> 00:25:16.532
When the lion comes, the
blood rushes away from there.

00:25:16.532 --> 00:25:18.932
So now we can't think anymore, right?

00:25:18.962 --> 00:25:22.272
The, it's actually literally moving away
from the thinking part of your brain.

00:25:23.172 --> 00:25:25.222
And now you're in sort of survival mode.

00:25:25.622 --> 00:25:29.622
And I think most people are in survival
mode, and at least I was, day in, day out.

00:25:30.022 --> 00:25:32.082
And the next stage from
that is shutdown mode.

00:25:32.292 --> 00:25:35.952
So if survival mode goes on for too long
and you don't release the stress, you

00:25:35.952 --> 00:25:39.942
completely shut down and you disengage
from the people around you, right?

00:25:39.982 --> 00:25:44.072
And I think many dads probably see
themselves there or have been there, and

00:25:44.072 --> 00:25:46.552
I know I was, at least every second day.

00:25:46.552 --> 00:25:51.572
So you have to tell your body to come back
down into a safe and secure state, right?

00:25:51.582 --> 00:25:57.942
So that's releasing that cortisol and,
and, and telling the body that, you know,

00:25:57.952 --> 00:26:01.202
the danger's gone now, you can calm down
and you can come back down to earth.

00:26:03.472 --> 00:26:10.072
So that's what I mean by state, and it
can be as simple as, you know, short

00:26:10.072 --> 00:26:12.342
breath, breath in, long exhale out.

00:26:12.812 --> 00:26:15.712
If we just take two short breaths in,

00:26:19.552 --> 00:26:21.902
automatically you're sort
of calming yourself down.

00:26:23.122 --> 00:26:25.812
It's movement, it's de-stressing,
it's getting rid of that

00:26:25.812 --> 00:26:26.802
cortisol and adrenaline.

00:26:26.812 --> 00:26:29.632
It's telling the body that
lion's gone now, right?

00:26:29.672 --> 00:26:33.142
And there's other things, of course,
we can all do, but it's getting

00:26:33.142 --> 00:26:36.692
yourself back into safe and secure
and not sitting in that survival mode

00:26:36.692 --> 00:26:40.462
or shutdown mode day in, day out,
because that's where we can't show up.

00:26:40.722 --> 00:26:44.942
That's when we're in the room still
thinking about 100 things and actually

00:26:45.002 --> 00:26:48.912
figuring, trying to think to ourselves,
"Why can't I just be present? Why

00:26:48.912 --> 00:26:53.232
can't I just have a conversation and
actually engage here?" It's because

00:26:53.232 --> 00:26:57.032
we're carrying all that cortisol and
stress that hasn't been released.

00:26:57.706 --> 00:26:57.956
Michael: Right.

00:26:58.536 --> 00:27:07.996
And regulating that allows you to
not only resolve the situation in

00:27:07.996 --> 00:27:12.786
the moment or get you back to a place
where you can participate again, but

00:27:12.796 --> 00:27:17.536
also over the long term, I think, from
what I understand, is that things like

00:27:17.556 --> 00:27:25.616
breathwork and mindfulness, exercise
can allow you to regu-, regulate those

00:27:25.616 --> 00:27:29.926
extremes of the nervous system, right,
so they don't occur as frequently

00:27:29.956 --> 00:27:33.816
or as harsh as they would otherwise.

00:27:35.522 --> 00:27:36.262
Mitesh: Yeah, that's right.

00:27:36.332 --> 00:27:40.312
And, and some, for some people you think,
well, you know, it's all meditation.

00:27:40.312 --> 00:27:42.082
It sounds sort of woo-woo, but it's not.

00:27:42.132 --> 00:27:43.492
It's, it's, it's biology.

00:27:43.502 --> 00:27:44.542
It's sort of science, right?

00:27:44.542 --> 00:27:49.582
Our bodies are, as much as we think
we're evolved, we're, we, we can

00:27:49.582 --> 00:27:52.422
still go back to the hunter-gatherer
times, and you think about how much

00:27:52.422 --> 00:27:54.342
we used to move those days, right?

00:27:54.352 --> 00:27:59.002
Now we just sit in traffic, sit at our
desk, sit around the home on the lounge.

00:27:59.572 --> 00:28:00.132
We just sit.

00:28:00.572 --> 00:28:02.812
So we just build up all
that cortisol, right?

00:28:04.042 --> 00:28:08.682
So that's why I look to, I look to my body
first and I didn't think, you know, that

00:28:08.682 --> 00:28:12.112
would be the place that would actually
reset my mind and bring me back down to

00:28:12.112 --> 00:28:13.632
safe and secure, but it actually was.

00:28:15.112 --> 00:28:19.162
Michael: Yeah, and it's such
a simple practice, too, right?

00:28:19.202 --> 00:28:22.702
Of particularly, breathwork, mindfulness.

00:28:22.912 --> 00:28:28.422
Like, they're not things that, yes, you
can study them to, and come up with a

00:28:28.462 --> 00:28:30.642
million different exercises, but there
are things you can implement right away.

00:28:30.642 --> 00:28:33.882
Like, you already suggested one of two
short breaths in, one long breath out.

00:28:33.882 --> 00:28:35.762
Like, that is something you
can just implement today.

00:28:36.502 --> 00:28:38.512
And I know you…

00:28:38.512 --> 00:28:43.534
Mitesh: By the way, Michael, a-, anytime I
feel like I'm getting stressed, it's often

00:28:43.534 --> 00:28:47.464
the first thing I do, and automatically
within 10 or 15 seconds, I already

00:28:47.464 --> 00:28:52.524
feel myself g-, putting the brakes on
slowing down and br-, coming back down.

00:28:52.524 --> 00:28:54.684
So I think it's, that's one simple thing.

00:28:55.774 --> 00:29:00.174
But yeah, obviously you don't
have to do half an hour, hour of,

00:29:00.174 --> 00:29:01.464
of meditation or whatever it is.

00:29:01.494 --> 00:29:04.594
It's simple breathwork, and there are
lots of other things that we can all

00:29:04.594 --> 00:29:07.264
do to, to sort of reset ourselves.

00:29:08.584 --> 00:29:11.644
Michael: Yeah, I think for myself,
and I, I'm the same way, I will

00:29:11.884 --> 00:29:14.774
focus on my breathing when I get
anxious, when I get stressed.

00:29:15.254 --> 00:29:22.354
I realize that anxiety and stress
cause me to forget to breathe, right,

00:29:22.354 --> 00:29:23.424
is really what it comes down to.

00:29:23.424 --> 00:29:27.974
I'm not breathing normally or
regularly, and when I realize that

00:29:28.014 --> 00:29:31.664
I'm in a stressful situation or I am
anxious, the first thought that comes

00:29:31.664 --> 00:29:34.584
to my mind now is breathe, right?

00:29:34.842 --> 00:29:35.112
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:29:35.464 --> 00:29:38.134
Michael: Whether it's box
breathing of, you know, a

00:29:38.134 --> 00:29:38.334
Mitesh: couple

00:29:38.364 --> 00:29:41.714
Michael: seconds in, hold, couple seconds,
couple seconds out, hold again, and just

00:29:41.714 --> 00:29:45.454
keep repeating that pattern, or many of
the other breathwork techniques that, that

00:29:45.454 --> 00:29:47.784
I've learned over the past couple years.

00:29:48.654 --> 00:29:53.374
Breathing, for me, works just
as effectively, I think, as,

00:29:53.754 --> 00:29:55.114
as you said it does for you.

00:29:55.514 --> 00:30:00.934
And it's things like for us as dads
of like when we're done f-, with

00:30:00.934 --> 00:30:04.174
work for the day and we're stressed
from work, we're coming home, we walk

00:30:04.174 --> 00:30:11.804
in the door, do you take a moment
to settle your breathing down, to

00:30:12.238 --> 00:30:12.728
Mitesh: Absolutely.

00:30:12.794 --> 00:30:15.144
Michael: Maybe get some of that
stress out before you walk through the

00:30:15.144 --> 00:30:18.484
threshold and, you know, greet the rest
of your family that's, that's waiting

00:30:18.484 --> 00:30:20.844
on you to, to start the night, right?

00:30:20.954 --> 00:30:27.354
You can implement these things very simply
and without actually having to really

00:30:27.364 --> 00:30:29.824
change or add time to your day, right?

00:30:29.964 --> 00:30:32.014
You can build them into
your existing routine.

00:30:32.484 --> 00:30:33.004
It could just

00:30:33.050 --> 00:30:33.370
Mitesh: That's right.

00:30:33.874 --> 00:30:37.164
Michael: be that the moments from even
if you work from home, of walking out

00:30:37.164 --> 00:30:41.584
of whatever room you're working in to
whatever room your family is in, you

00:30:41.584 --> 00:30:46.864
use those five steps to take a deep
breath, two deep breaths, and just

00:30:46.864 --> 00:30:49.424
regulate yourself before you come in,
and so you don't carry some of that

00:30:49.424 --> 00:30:56.254
stress from work into your family
life as much as you previously had.

00:30:57.524 --> 00:30:57.904
Mitesh: Absolutely.

00:30:59.080 --> 00:31:03.460
Michael: So for you, from what
you've told me, running became a big

00:31:03.470 --> 00:31:05.010
part of your reset process, right?

00:31:05.444 --> 00:31:05.744
Mitesh: Hmm.

00:31:06.100 --> 00:31:08.410
Michael: What role, we've talked
a lot about breathing, and you

00:31:08.410 --> 00:31:09.910
mentioned a little bit about movement.

00:31:09.920 --> 00:31:13.630
What role has movement played in
helping you become more present,

00:31:13.810 --> 00:31:15.530
particularly as, as a father?

00:31:17.778 --> 00:31:23.628
Mitesh: Well, that was probably right
at the cornerstone of everything because

00:31:23.648 --> 00:31:28.968
coming back to my body meant telling
my body that, you know, the, the, the,

00:31:28.978 --> 00:31:30.798
the stress has, has passed, right?

00:31:30.848 --> 00:31:32.638
And I'd probably built this up for years.

00:31:32.648 --> 00:31:39.184
So, you know, I was, initially started
running because I wanted to get healthier.

00:31:39.914 --> 00:31:46.824
And what I started to realize is actually
every time I went for a run I'd turn up

00:31:46.834 --> 00:31:51.794
much more present, and I'd be able to
be focused with my kids, with my partner

00:31:53.214 --> 00:31:55.254
and actually think clearly in the room.

00:31:56.074 --> 00:31:59.954
And I found the connection between, you
know, ultimately what the science says

00:32:00.074 --> 00:32:04.484
is all that cortisol, all that stress,
all that anxiety was getting released,

00:32:04.694 --> 00:32:09.224
you know, every day, not just, you
know, once a week or whatever it was.

00:32:09.434 --> 00:32:12.984
You know, I wasn't necessarily
not being physically active.

00:32:13.034 --> 00:32:15.884
I was, you know, going to the
gym sort of three times a week,

00:32:16.084 --> 00:32:17.914
probably walking two times a week.

00:32:19.484 --> 00:32:21.794
I wasn't really running,
and I was never a runner.

00:32:21.854 --> 00:32:24.624
And I think, you know, I just
started to change those walks

00:32:24.624 --> 00:32:27.584
into let me run 100 meters, right?

00:32:28.084 --> 00:32:30.054
It might be 45 minutes
around the neighborhood.

00:32:30.614 --> 00:32:31.684
You can see my room.

00:32:31.694 --> 00:32:32.684
Those that will be on video.

00:32:32.984 --> 00:32:34.654
I've got a treadmill here now, right?

00:32:34.654 --> 00:32:39.384
So again, building an
environment which encourages me

00:32:39.384 --> 00:32:41.294
to move and de-stress, right?

00:32:41.294 --> 00:32:47.254
So if I've just had a stressful call,
you know, I can continue to go straight

00:32:47.264 --> 00:32:51.114
into another call, or I can take 10
or 15 minutes and jump on that, right?

00:32:51.334 --> 00:32:52.164
Just a quick walk.

00:32:52.384 --> 00:32:55.554
If, even if it's cold or rainy
or whatever it is, is outside,

00:32:55.554 --> 00:32:56.614
I don't have to leave anywhere.

00:32:56.614 --> 00:33:00.134
I'm building an environment that
sort of helps me reset, right?

00:33:00.474 --> 00:33:04.354
And for a lot of people, they, if
they can't do breathwork and sit

00:33:04.374 --> 00:33:10.604
still and do mindfulness practices,
then running is like meditation

00:33:10.684 --> 00:33:14.834
or some sort of physical activity
can become your meditation, right?

00:33:14.894 --> 00:33:16.404
You can sort of switch off.

00:33:16.614 --> 00:33:20.194
You can tell your body to come
back down, and those 100 meters

00:33:20.194 --> 00:33:22.364
turn into two to 500 meters.

00:33:22.374 --> 00:33:23.384
Then it was a kilometer.

00:33:23.984 --> 00:33:27.804
And I quickly found, you know,
my body was getting lighter.

00:33:28.054 --> 00:33:31.214
Physically, I was losing weight as
well, which was sort of a byproduct.

00:33:31.214 --> 00:33:35.654
And, you know, legs felt that
were heavy, the knees that ached.

00:33:36.324 --> 00:33:38.314
I could hold my breath longer.

00:33:38.564 --> 00:33:39.914
Things were changing, right?

00:33:40.424 --> 00:33:44.074
And I found that ratio was
changing from walking to running.

00:33:44.384 --> 00:33:47.654
And every time I, as I said, I came
back, I just felt different, a different

00:33:47.654 --> 00:33:49.014
person when I walked through the door.

00:33:49.874 --> 00:33:51.844
I had energy, real energy.

00:33:52.754 --> 00:33:57.824
I found the noise in my head was,
was calmed down and it was quiet.

00:33:57.974 --> 00:33:58.994
It was in the background.

00:33:59.634 --> 00:34:00.444
I was there.

00:34:00.564 --> 00:34:01.784
I was physically present.

00:34:02.444 --> 00:34:06.744
And perhaps the, the sort of
weight training wasn't doing

00:34:07.524 --> 00:34:09.034
what it needed to in my body.

00:34:09.054 --> 00:34:12.734
While it helped sort of muscle definition
and probably some level of stress

00:34:12.734 --> 00:34:17.394
release, I think aerobic exercise
does something where you reduce those

00:34:17.424 --> 00:34:22.654
cortisol levels and adrenaline, the
body's stress hormones come down and you

00:34:22.684 --> 00:34:28.158
produce those endorphins in, you know,
big quantities, especially if you go 45

00:34:28.158 --> 00:34:31.018
minutes to an hour, which is, you know,
people talk about the runner's high

00:34:31.018 --> 00:34:38.188
and it's, it's a real thing where your
natural mood elevates all that dopamine,

00:34:38.978 --> 00:34:41.008
serotonin is flooding your system.

00:34:42.038 --> 00:34:43.398
But it doesn't have to be an hour, right?

00:34:43.398 --> 00:34:46.138
It can be simple as 10, 20 minutes,
30 minutes, whatever it is.

00:34:46.448 --> 00:34:51.728
It's making it regular enough and
finding habits and routines and getting

00:34:51.728 --> 00:34:55.378
enough movement in where you break a
bit of a sweat and reset that body.

00:34:55.538 --> 00:34:58.698
Because we were doing that this
hundreds, and thousands of years ago.

00:34:58.728 --> 00:35:01.788
We were running away
from threats every day.

00:35:01.818 --> 00:35:06.168
We were probably moving 10 to
15Ks at least, and many of us

00:35:06.188 --> 00:35:07.848
probably don't move two Ks now.

00:35:08.538 --> 00:35:09.948
We sit at our desks, as I said.

00:35:10.008 --> 00:35:11.758
We sit everywhere around our home.

00:35:11.798 --> 00:35:11.898
Michael: Yep.

00:35:12.678 --> 00:35:16.748
Mitesh: that was a, that was a key part
is, is get your health and your body

00:35:16.748 --> 00:35:21.058
right, and tell your body you can actually
come down from the stress levels, and

00:35:21.298 --> 00:35:23.728
that starts with physical movement.

00:35:25.330 --> 00:35:25.840
Michael: Absolutely.

00:35:26.240 --> 00:35:31.710
And so this physical movement has
allowed you to be more present, right?

00:35:31.710 --> 00:35:36.090
It's more emotionally present, more
mentally present, particularly,

00:35:36.240 --> 00:35:37.590
you know, we talked about at home.

00:35:38.150 --> 00:35:41.230
But does it work on the,
in the other direction?

00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:43.990
Does it, has there been any
unexpected carryover into

00:35:43.990 --> 00:35:45.920
your career or leadership by

00:35:46.472 --> 00:35:46.662
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:35:46.870 --> 00:35:48.420
Michael: implementing some
of these, these things to…

00:35:49.042 --> 00:35:53.022
Mitesh: It's, it's funny you say that
because, you know, I, I look back in my

00:35:53.022 --> 00:35:58.022
career, I've been in market research and
consulting work for almost 20 years now.

00:35:58.842 --> 00:36:04.132
And I, I look back on the last, you
know, probably when I got really got

00:36:04.132 --> 00:36:07.672
myself physically fit, and I know
I'm sure a lot of your listeners may

00:36:07.682 --> 00:36:11.102
relate to this as well, you turn up
with more energy everywhere, right?

00:36:11.162 --> 00:36:13.562
And, and, and people see
that, and we pick that up.

00:36:13.672 --> 00:36:17.082
You know, our, our body's nervous
system picks up the energy in the room.

00:36:18.462 --> 00:36:22.562
And the last two years have probably
been, you know, right up there in terms

00:36:22.562 --> 00:36:28.202
of the success of my career and how I'm
doing in my career and, and, and, and

00:36:28.212 --> 00:36:29.942
the achievements I'm making at work.

00:36:30.782 --> 00:36:35.322
It's really interesting, you
know, changing yourself at home,

00:36:35.402 --> 00:36:39.542
working on yourself mentally and
physically and working on your body.

00:36:39.632 --> 00:36:43.932
It has, it just transfers across to the
energy that you bring everywhere you go.

00:36:44.072 --> 00:36:45.742
Not just the home, but
your career as well.

00:36:45.742 --> 00:36:50.282
Clients see it, your boss sees it, your
teams see it, your colleagues see it.

00:36:51.092 --> 00:36:54.822
And everyone starts saying, "You know,
you look, you look fresher, you look

00:36:54.822 --> 00:36:59.832
younger, your skin's glowing." And
all these things really are, you know,

00:37:00.292 --> 00:37:03.612
from all the work you're doing around
physical movement, but also not just that.

00:37:04.222 --> 00:37:07.072
As, as we said, it's, it's
releasing that stress, right?

00:37:07.072 --> 00:37:08.862
So those, those,

00:37:11.152 --> 00:37:13.912
those things show up in the body,
and they show up in different ways.

00:37:13.952 --> 00:37:19.032
The bags under your eyes, the, you know,
the, the bod-, the skin looking dull.

00:37:19.622 --> 00:37:23.752
And, and I think you really just
reset yourself and you can turn

00:37:23.752 --> 00:37:25.172
up better as a leader at work.

00:37:26.442 --> 00:37:30.732
And you, you, you know, I think you'll
quietly surprise yourself that actually

00:37:30.802 --> 00:37:33.772
it's helping you not just in home,
but actually you're probably having

00:37:33.772 --> 00:37:36.912
the best years of your career as
well because that energy you are now

00:37:36.912 --> 00:37:41.762
bringing it, you know, I haven't got
the word for it, but it just sort of

00:37:43.302 --> 00:37:45.482
flows really out into everybody else.

00:37:46.288 --> 00:37:48.768
Michael: Right, it seems like
the energy feeds on itself.

00:37:48.798 --> 00:37:55.728
The more energy you generate by
becoming more physically active,

00:37:55.758 --> 00:38:00.748
by calming your, yourself down,
your brain down, you're able to,

00:38:02.920 --> 00:38:07.000
you have this boost of energy, but that
energy then creates more energy, right?

00:38:07.010 --> 00:38:11.640
And you just, you have more to expend
as time goes on and the more that you

00:38:11.670 --> 00:38:16.360
continue to take care of yourself, right,
but again, you have to, we're talking

00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:20.170
here about taking care of yourself
first so that you can take care of

00:38:20.200 --> 00:38:23.210
the other aspects of your life, right?

00:38:23.230 --> 00:38:26.950
Like, you know, we started this
conversation of being present in

00:38:26.950 --> 00:38:33.610
the moment with family, right, but
in order to do that, you kind of

00:38:33.610 --> 00:38:37.120
have to take a step back and take
care of yourself first, right?

00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:41.960
Like, it wasn't like, yeah, you could
put your phone away or try to be more

00:38:41.960 --> 00:38:46.280
cognizant, but it, it's harder to
do when you still aren't emotionally

00:38:46.300 --> 00:38:50.600
available and present with your kids
because you're still, the temptation

00:38:50.600 --> 00:38:51.750
will still be just as strong.

00:38:51.760 --> 00:38:58.520
But the more you're able to start
to regulate your nervous system or

00:38:58.788 --> 00:38:58.888
Mitesh: That's right.

00:38:59.000 --> 00:39:02.520
Michael: whatever it may be, like, the
easier it becomes to be present, right?

00:39:02.520 --> 00:39:03.318
But the only way to do that is

00:39:03.368 --> 00:39:03.738
Mitesh: Yes.

00:39:04.080 --> 00:39:06.830
Michael: To make sure you also
take care of yourself, right?

00:39:06.830 --> 00:39:08.500
That's the first step.

00:39:09.704 --> 00:39:11.801
Mitesh: And I think, Michael, you
know, there might be a lot of your

00:39:11.801 --> 00:39:14.514
listeners going, "Well, I just don't
have time for that." Like, where

00:39:14.514 --> 00:39:15.824
do you make time to do this, right?

00:39:15.824 --> 00:39:18.874
It's all a time, ultimately it's a
ta-, trade-off of time, but I think

00:39:21.484 --> 00:39:26.274
whether it's time or priorities
or, you know, whatever you

00:39:26.284 --> 00:39:27.834
call it, work-life balance.

00:39:27.844 --> 00:39:32.644
But I think, you know, the research
is really clear around people that

00:39:32.644 --> 00:39:35.474
move and get physically active, right?

00:39:35.504 --> 00:39:41.574
It lowers your cortisol res, responses
to that physiological stress.

00:39:41.574 --> 00:39:46.084
Our, our bodies start to recover
faster from stress as well in the

00:39:46.094 --> 00:39:48.804
first place, and we show up better
and we, we build this thing called

00:39:48.814 --> 00:39:53.094
stress re-, resilience, right, through
that constant physical activity.

00:39:53.094 --> 00:39:57.804
So that's not just stress resilience in
the body, that's the mind as well, right?

00:39:57.804 --> 00:40:02.024
So being able to cope with difficult
situations better, whether that's at

00:40:02.024 --> 00:40:07.114
work and stress around hitting your
KPIs, your numbers, your bonuses, or

00:40:07.114 --> 00:40:11.554
whether that's at home and that's you
know, demands of running a household

00:40:11.564 --> 00:40:13.424
with kids with your partner, et cetera.

00:40:13.424 --> 00:40:17.614
And I think, you know, there
will be some really hard moments

00:40:17.614 --> 00:40:19.564
to build those habits, right?

00:40:19.584 --> 00:40:23.504
So I know the, the early days
were, were absolutely brutal.

00:40:24.074 --> 00:40:29.634
And, you know, I know the US gets pretty
cold, but Melbourne gets very cold,

00:40:29.634 --> 00:40:31.224
wet, and, and rainy in, in winter.

00:40:31.384 --> 00:40:36.814
And then I remember I started in
winter, where it was actually a year

00:40:36.814 --> 00:40:43.034
ago where I started in, in just over a
year ago in July, and, you know, some,

00:40:43.174 --> 00:40:47.194
some days it was like zero degrees,
zero minus two Celsius, I should say.

00:40:47.194 --> 00:40:48.484
So freezing basically, right?

00:40:48.668 --> 00:40:48.738
Michael: Yep.

00:40:49.984 --> 00:40:54.644
Mitesh: So, and I'd layer up thermals,
jacket, beanie, gloves, and I chose

00:40:54.684 --> 00:40:57.104
to go at five AM in the dark and cold.

00:40:57.294 --> 00:40:58.964
You know, my breath was
fogging in front of me.

00:40:58.964 --> 00:40:59.724
I started moving.

00:41:00.264 --> 00:41:01.564
And why five AM?

00:41:01.574 --> 00:41:05.384
Because I knew myself, and I think a
lot of dads will probably see themselves

00:41:05.754 --> 00:41:10.164
in this, as well, is if you don't carve
out time for yourself, whenever that

00:41:10.164 --> 00:41:14.304
is, and I found morning was the best,
is we all know the demands of the day

00:41:14.304 --> 00:41:18.364
get to you, whether it's your kids,
your partner, your boss, the clients.

00:41:18.884 --> 00:41:20.234
At the end of the day, you're depleted.

00:41:20.284 --> 00:41:23.474
So you just need to know yourself and
go, "When can I give my s-, time to

00:41:23.474 --> 00:41:29.034
myself where I can actually work on
myself and, and then show up better

00:41:29.404 --> 00:41:31.164
at work, at home," effectively.

00:41:31.294 --> 00:41:35.574
And initially it was five AM
and, and that could build the

00:41:35.574 --> 00:41:38.824
habit, but then that wasn't
sustainable in the long term, right?

00:41:38.824 --> 00:41:42.944
Because I felt you know, and then,
then I adjusted things because I

00:41:42.944 --> 00:41:46.424
felt, well, I was, that worked really
well to get the habit in place.

00:41:48.004 --> 00:41:51.864
But then I was too tired at night to
hang out with my partner and connect,

00:41:52.244 --> 00:41:57.194
or I was missing part of the morning
lunch boxes and routine with the kids

00:41:57.194 --> 00:41:59.714
because I'd come home late from a run
and shower and get ready for work.

00:42:00.374 --> 00:42:04.644
So I think you may need to make
a short-term sacrifice, but

00:42:04.674 --> 00:42:09.100
in the long term, it's finding
what's sustainable as well.

00:42:09.562 --> 00:42:09.732
Michael: Right.

00:42:10.072 --> 00:42:15.742
I think a another potential alternative
is to figure out ways you can

00:42:15.752 --> 00:42:19.662
integrate that physical movement with
your kids, with your family, right?

00:42:19.712 --> 00:42:19.872
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:42:20.312 --> 00:42:22.942
Michael: Do some of the,
those activities together.

00:42:23.110 --> 00:42:23.680
Mitesh: Absolutely.

00:42:24.692 --> 00:42:26.362
Michael: You know, especially if you're
starting out, you're not in good shape,

00:42:26.812 --> 00:42:32.382
and you might have to start a little bit
slower and maybe not do it for as long a

00:42:32.382 --> 00:42:34.982
period of time, you know, at all at once.

00:42:35.322 --> 00:42:38.572
You can, you know, play
with the kids outside.

00:42:38.572 --> 00:42:42.032
You could, depending on age, maybe
you guys go for a walk together

00:42:42.032 --> 00:42:46.382
or ride bikes together or just
do something physically active

00:42:46.888 --> 00:42:46.898
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:42:47.022 --> 00:42:47.952
Michael: together, right?

00:42:47.952 --> 00:42:51.502
And now you're kind of, you're
accomplishing multiple things, right?

00:42:51.502 --> 00:42:52.812
You're taking care of yourself.

00:42:53.662 --> 00:42:57.372
You're also spending quality time
with those you care about, right?

00:42:57.828 --> 00:42:58.178
Mitesh: Yes

00:42:58.602 --> 00:43:01.252
Michael: And you're setting
an example for your kids to

00:43:01.252 --> 00:43:04.232
follow of healthy habits, right?

00:43:04.232 --> 00:43:04.682
Mitesh: That's right.

00:43:05.442 --> 00:43:08.962
Michael: So there's, you know, you
don't have to start, I, I imagine

00:43:09.642 --> 00:43:12.422
in running a marathon, you don't
start by running the marathon.

00:43:12.762 --> 00:43:13.492
You start with,

00:43:13.562 --> 00:43:13.722
Mitesh: No.

00:43:14.212 --> 00:43:17.232
Michael: you know, whatever distance,
whatever short distance, right?

00:43:17.232 --> 00:43:19.762
And you keep building, building,
and building upon that, right?

00:43:20.456 --> 00:43:20.946
Mitesh: That's right

00:43:22.222 --> 00:43:26.292
Michael: So, when dads say, "We don't
have time," and I've certainly made this

00:43:26.292 --> 00:43:32.942
excuse before in the past, you don't
have time or you just haven't figured

00:43:32.952 --> 00:43:37.362
out a way to get started, take that
first step, even if it's five minutes?

00:43:37.362 --> 00:43:40.752
If you can't fi-, fi-, find five
minutes in your schedule in a week,

00:43:41.382 --> 00:43:41.542
Mitesh: you

00:43:41.542 --> 00:43:45.472
Michael: probably have schedule
issues that you need to address,

00:43:45.472 --> 00:43:51.242
right, 'cause even if it's five
minutes as you are cleaning up after

00:43:51.242 --> 00:43:57.032
dinner, like maybe you're doing some
exercises while you are cleaning up.

00:43:57.160 --> 00:43:57.370
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:43:57.522 --> 00:44:01.562
Michael: Or maybe you're, you know,
you find, you steal two minutes here

00:44:01.732 --> 00:44:05.542
taking the, the trash to the curb,
and you steal two minutes there, you

00:44:05.542 --> 00:44:10.212
know, as you wait for the, the water
to heat up, as you are making dinner

00:44:10.212 --> 00:44:11.802
or taking a shower, whatever it may be.

00:44:11.802 --> 00:44:16.322
Like, you can, those times
can start to stack, right?

00:44:16.332 --> 00:44:22.042
And before you know it, you're starting
to find some actual time there where

00:44:22.042 --> 00:44:24.482
you can build some of these habits.

00:44:25.012 --> 00:44:29.312
It's the, I think, in most cases, at
least for me, the excuse of not having

00:44:29.312 --> 00:44:35.902
enough time is really not an ex-,
it, it's an excuse for not having the

00:44:35.902 --> 00:44:39.032
motivation to get started or not knowing
exactly how to get started, right?

00:44:39.932 --> 00:44:40.312
But once

00:44:40.408 --> 00:44:40.638
Mitesh: It's the hardest part.

00:44:40.638 --> 00:44:40.658
It is.

00:44:40.772 --> 00:44:42.442
Michael: you get started,
you can start to stack.

00:44:43.272 --> 00:44:43.772
Mitesh: That's right.

00:44:44.042 --> 00:44:45.662
Hard, starting is the hardest part.

00:44:46.702 --> 00:44:50.932
So, so just I think everybody knows
themselves, and figure out what you

00:44:50.932 --> 00:44:55.052
need to do to motivate yourself to
get started to build the discipline.

00:44:55.292 --> 00:44:59.012
Because once you build the
discipline and the habit, then the

00:44:59.012 --> 00:45:00.522
rewards will start coming, right?

00:45:00.542 --> 00:45:06.432
So just like you said, start small but
y-, you know yourself and, and what do

00:45:06.432 --> 00:45:10.692
you need to do to, to, to get started,
because starting is the hard part.

00:45:11.660 --> 00:45:11.920
Michael: Absolutely.

00:45:12.190 --> 00:45:14.000
All right, one more question
before we get into the speed round.

00:45:14.470 --> 00:45:14.696
When your kids

00:45:14.696 --> 00:45:15.016
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:45:15.190 --> 00:45:18.960
Michael: look back years from now,
what do you hope they'll remember

00:45:18.960 --> 00:45:23.170
most about the kind of dad you
became after making these changes?

00:45:25.960 --> 00:45:26.380
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:45:28.130 --> 00:45:33.710
Look, I, I, I hope they remember
the small moments, right?

00:45:33.720 --> 00:45:39.330
So I think it's, you know, it's,
it's being there with them in

00:45:39.360 --> 00:45:40.680
those most vulnerable moments.

00:45:40.710 --> 00:45:43.630
It's teaching them how to be,

00:45:46.870 --> 00:45:48.620
how to be, you know, kind,

00:45:51.000 --> 00:45:55.730
kind-hearted people with strong
minds, strong bodies with, with, you

00:45:55.730 --> 00:45:59.890
know, those good values and ethics
being, being part of the community.

00:46:00.710 --> 00:46:06.780
And I hope they remember the, like I
said, those moments and, and, and I've

00:46:06.820 --> 00:46:13.030
modeled what a man should be, what a
dad should be, what to expect from, at

00:46:13.030 --> 00:46:14.670
least for my daughter as well, you know.

00:46:15.810 --> 00:46:18.810
If she chooses a man in the future,
then what, what should that be?

00:46:18.810 --> 00:46:25.320
And I've also taught my son, you
know, what a good dad looks like.

00:46:25.430 --> 00:46:30.370
And, and, and, you know, it's not just
about the sacrifice, it's, it's making

00:46:30.370 --> 00:46:35.050
sure that you are connecting with your
loved ones and they, they're learning

00:46:35.050 --> 00:46:41.070
those, those skills at home, and they
remember how I made them feel, not what I

00:46:41.070 --> 00:46:45.540
had for them and what I gave them beyond
that, like the physical material things.

00:46:46.140 --> 00:46:50.540
So, yeah, that, that's what I
do hope for in, in both of them.

00:46:50.750 --> 00:46:51.010
Michael: Love that.

00:46:51.590 --> 00:46:52.100
That's great.

00:46:52.140 --> 00:46:54.590
That's, I, I appreciate
you sharing that with us.

00:46:54.590 --> 00:46:58.540
Now, we're gonna go from the
serious and sentimental to the

00:46:58.610 --> 00:46:59.020
Mitesh: Yeah.

00:46:59.380 --> 00:47:02.120
Michael: completely unserious
in the speed round, which has

00:47:02.130 --> 00:47:03.090
nothing to do with anything.

00:47:03.200 --> 00:47:06.310
Five quick questions for you,
starting with what's the first kid's

00:47:06.310 --> 00:47:07.840
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:47:09.522 --> 00:47:11.882
Mitesh: Yeah, I think this one
was running for many years.

00:47:12.332 --> 00:47:13.122
Paw Patrol.

00:47:13.222 --> 00:47:15.032
You know, "We'll be there on the double."

00:47:15.716 --> 00:47:15.766
Michael: For sure.

00:47:16.632 --> 00:47:19.892
Mitesh: That's burned into every brain
of every parent, if you like it or not.

00:47:20.072 --> 00:47:21.362
So, yeah, Paw Patrol.

00:47:21.988 --> 00:47:22.618
Michael: For sure.

00:47:22.868 --> 00:47:23.368
For sure.

00:47:23.468 --> 00:47:24.748
What was your very first job?

00:47:26.628 --> 00:47:27.308
Mitesh: Oh, yes.

00:47:27.938 --> 00:47:29.738
So this is an interesting one.

00:47:29.738 --> 00:47:33.208
So I, I started, you know, probably
like most teenagers want to earn

00:47:33.208 --> 00:47:36.338
some money, probably starts earlier
these days with, you know, our

00:47:36.358 --> 00:47:37.978
younger kids doing housework.

00:47:37.978 --> 00:47:41.168
But I started a paper run when I was 13.

00:47:42.538 --> 00:47:46.058
And so you're delivering the local
newspaper to the neighborhood.

00:47:46.398 --> 00:47:49.668
I think there was like 800 or 1,000
newspapers around the neighborhood.

00:47:49.818 --> 00:47:54.978
And I remember I'd get, I still
remember it, $11.35 was what I

00:47:54.978 --> 00:47:56.698
got to deliver those newspapers.

00:47:56.778 --> 00:48:01.138
And I'd get up at 5:00, you know,
deliver most of it before school.

00:48:01.168 --> 00:48:05.158
My dad would drop off various bags on
the corner of various streets that we'd

00:48:05.208 --> 00:48:09.288
packed all the newspapers, and I'd finish
up in the afternoon if I hadn't done

00:48:09.288 --> 00:48:11.008
all of it in the morning before school.

00:48:11.228 --> 00:48:14.458
And, you know, I'd always get very
excited when it rained because

00:48:15.158 --> 00:48:18.078
if you bagged the newspapers, you
got extra few dollars as well.

00:48:18.148 --> 00:48:20.348
So it might be $15 or $16.

00:48:20.728 --> 00:48:23.278
And I, and I was actually reflecting
on this recently and going, "You know

00:48:23.278 --> 00:48:27.648
what? That 5:00 AM routine started
very young. I just lost it over many

00:48:27.648 --> 00:48:29.118
years, and I knew I could do it."

00:48:29.858 --> 00:48:31.748
And it just shows up in a
different way now, right?

00:48:31.748 --> 00:48:35.398
And I think we, we can all look back to
a time where we've actually sacrificed

00:48:35.398 --> 00:48:38.698
and felt really good about ourselves,
and we just need to bring that back.

00:48:39.398 --> 00:48:40.718
So yeah, that was my first job.

00:48:41.372 --> 00:48:41.812
Michael: Absolutely.

00:48:41.982 --> 00:48:42.352
Love that.

00:48:42.682 --> 00:48:45.202
That's got a tough job,
800 or 1,000 newspapers?

00:48:45.890 --> 00:48:46.260
Mitesh: Yes.

00:48:46.750 --> 00:48:47.840
Pay wasn't very good
at the time, you know?

00:48:48.572 --> 00:48:51.272
Michael: Yeah, that's a lot of
physical, physical work there.

00:48:51.992 --> 00:48:55.562
Alright, would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:48:55.572 --> 00:48:57.432
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:48:59.122 --> 00:49:01.692
Mitesh: Yeah, toddler-sized
T-Rex no question.

00:49:01.722 --> 00:49:06.362
I, I've survived actual toddlers,
but having a T-Rex-sized tantrum,

00:49:06.362 --> 00:49:07.632
I don't think I could manage that.

00:49:09.152 --> 00:49:10.532
No amount of breathwork will help.

00:49:12.638 --> 00:49:13.228
Michael: That's fair.

00:49:13.268 --> 00:49:13.768
That's fair.

00:49:14.128 --> 00:49:17.328
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:49:20.478 --> 00:49:22.418
Mitesh: Well, I don't do a lot of
karaoke, but may-, maybe one of

00:49:22.418 --> 00:49:24.728
the Michael Jackson songs, "Billie
Jean" or something like that.

00:49:25.578 --> 00:49:26.958
Yeah, I think I'll do that.

00:49:27.926 --> 00:49:28.266
Michael: Great song.

00:49:28.776 --> 00:49:30.996
And, finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:49:30.996 --> 00:49:32.826
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:49:35.244 --> 00:49:39.094
Mitesh: So, for years, I, I don't know why
I did this, maybe it made me feel smarter,

00:49:39.094 --> 00:49:40.894
but I carried a physical calculator.

00:49:41.484 --> 00:49:44.494
So you know, we have our phones,
we have our spreadsheets.

00:49:44.634 --> 00:49:45.964
I'm in market research.

00:49:45.974 --> 00:49:50.724
You know, you're, you're doing pricing
for clients, you're writing proposals.

00:49:50.724 --> 00:49:54.554
But I don't know why I carried
a calculator but I did.

00:49:55.184 --> 00:49:58.234
And then I, I think it was only two or
three years ago I took it out of my bag.

00:49:58.234 --> 00:50:01.234
So probably 15 years of
carrying a calculator in my bag.

00:50:02.034 --> 00:50:02.744
Michael: Practical.

00:50:03.764 --> 00:50:04.154
It can be.

00:50:04.214 --> 00:50:05.804
I guess it depends on your, on your job.

00:50:06.614 --> 00:50:07.164
Mitesh: Absolutely.

00:50:07.214 --> 00:50:09.364
Michael: Mitesh, before we wrap up,
where can people learn more about you,

00:50:09.374 --> 00:50:10.574
connect with your work, and get your book?

00:50:12.754 --> 00:50:16.614
Mitesh: Yeah, look the t- the book
I've written is called "Fight or

00:50:16.614 --> 00:50:22.264
Father: Using CALM," which is a bit of
a framework built on science, "Using

00:50:22.264 --> 00:50:26.654
CALM to Stop Reacting and, and Start
Connecting." And it's it's out now.

00:50:27.144 --> 00:50:30.984
So any dad that would like that,
you can look at Amazon where you

00:50:30.984 --> 00:50:33.964
can find the book, and any sort of
good bookstore will have it as well.

00:50:35.104 --> 00:50:37.974
But yeah, if you just search
"Fight or Father," you can go to my

00:50:37.974 --> 00:50:39.244
website as well and find me there.

00:50:39.244 --> 00:50:43.144
But, yeah, that's, the book's
out on Amazon, so it's probably

00:50:43.464 --> 00:50:44.214
the best place to grab it.

00:50:45.308 --> 00:50:45.708
Michael: Excellent.

00:50:46.288 --> 00:50:46.858
Appreciate that.

00:50:46.858 --> 00:50:48.718
We'll make sure to link to
all that in the show notes.

00:50:48.718 --> 00:50:50.988
Mitesh, thank you so much
for, for joining me today.

00:50:50.998 --> 00:50:57.878
I really appreciate your message because
I think it gives dads hope, right?

00:50:57.878 --> 00:51:04.688
I think we've all felt similar feelings
to this, or have been in situations

00:51:04.688 --> 00:51:06.478
that are similar to what you've been in.

00:51:06.478 --> 00:51:10.308
It might not have been exactly,
you know, the words that our kids

00:51:10.308 --> 00:51:13.158
have used, but we've all been
distracted at some point, right?

00:51:13.158 --> 00:51:16.988
We've all been pulled in directions we
didn't necessarily want to be pulled into.

00:51:17.898 --> 00:51:23.628
And you have turned it around to, you
didn't, like, give up your job and

00:51:23.638 --> 00:51:25.688
move into the wilderness and, right?

00:51:25.688 --> 00:51:28.508
You just, you found a
practical solution for you.

00:51:29.308 --> 00:51:33.708
You're not asking fathers
to become perfect or totally

00:51:33.708 --> 00:51:34.808
reinvent their lives, right?

00:51:34.808 --> 00:51:40.078
You're just, you demonstrate, you found
some small shifts for you that work

00:51:40.088 --> 00:51:44.348
in terms of shifts in awareness and
presence, but they have a meaningful

00:51:44.348 --> 00:51:46.408
impact beyond just you, right?

00:51:46.638 --> 00:51:49.978
It impacts yourself, it impacts
your work, impacts your family, your

00:51:49.978 --> 00:51:51.578
friends, the people who matter most.

00:51:51.908 --> 00:51:55.388
So I'm grateful for the conversation
and for the, the work you're doing.

00:51:55.558 --> 00:51:57.568
Th-, this book is super exciting to me.

00:51:57.568 --> 00:52:04.158
I, I mean, the title alone is, like,
everything I hope Gap to Gig, you know, is

00:52:04.850 --> 00:52:04.860
Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

00:52:05.078 --> 00:52:05.758
Michael: trying to promote, right?

00:52:06.178 --> 00:52:12.368
And the, your frameworks are so
smart and practical, and I just,

00:52:12.448 --> 00:52:13.158
I love everything about that.

00:52:13.158 --> 00:52:14.138
So thank you again for joining me.

00:52:14.138 --> 00:52:14.858
I appreciate it.

00:52:15.248 --> 00:52:17.528
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:52:17.528 --> 00:52:20.498
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

00:52:20.788 --> 00:52:23.548
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:52:23.728 --> 00:52:26.828
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:52:26.858 --> 00:52:28.168
and what really matters right now.

00:52:28.608 --> 00:52:31.018
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:52:31.018 --> 00:52:32.068
dad who might need to hear it.

00:52:32.628 --> 00:52:34.118
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:52:34.128 --> 00:52:36.083
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.