Mitesh Khatri on Becoming More Present as a Working Dad

0:00 Mitesh: We're creatures of habits. We don't know half the time what we're doing because our brain is getting rewarded for with the dopamine, serotonin. And if it's a behavior that is, that you can't, you know, stop doing, and then in the long term it's having an impact on you, you know, Gabor Maté talks about that. I think that's, that's an addiction, whether it's alcohol or, or smoking or it's your phone. And I think we do it automatically but don't want to sort of admit ourselves to it. And, you know, the flow-on effects on our kids is like, not just like the time on your phone, but what it's telling them in the room is like, "This thing is so important to me right now that I can't even engage with you," right?

0:50 Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions. Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today I'm excited to welcome Mitesh Khatri to the show. Mitesh is a Melbourne-based father of two, corporate strategist, and author of "Fight or Father: Using Calm to Stop Reacting and Start Connecting." For years, Mitesh believed he was doing what a good dad was supposed to do: work hard, provide for his family, and be there when he could, but despite being physically present, he realized he was often emotionally absent, carrying the stress and pressure of work into the moments that mattered most at home. Everything changed when his six-year-old son looked up and said six simple words: "You're always on your phone, Dad." That moment sparked a journey into nervous system regulation, emotional presence, and what it really means to show up as a father.

1:38 Today, he leads a running group for dads, ran the Gold Coast Marathon to raise money for Beyond Blue, and is helping fathers stop reacting and start connecting. Mitesh, welcome to Gap to Gig. I'm so glad you're here. Thanks for being here. Mitesh: Thanks so much, Michael, for having me on. It's been, it's a real pleasure to be here, and I'm excited to talk to you today. Michael: I appreciate that. So I wanna start with those words from your son, because I think a lot of dads listening will recognize themselves in that moment. Your son said that you're always on your phone. Take us back to that moment. What hit you so hard about hearing those words? Mitesh: That was one of those, probably one of two key breaking points for me. So you know, I think as fathers, and modern fatherhood has a lot of pressure in itself, right?

2:23 Modern parenting has a lot of pressure. Every generation faces its challenges. I think, for me, if I think about that moment, taking, taking myself back there, you know, I was standing between the bench top, kitchen bench top and the dining table, and it was a Saturday afternoon, right? So I'm not, I'm not meant to be working. I work dur-, well, during the week. I wasn't even doing work. I was on my phone between the bench top and the kitchen table. My son was on the kitchen table. He was doing some Lego or, or something. And that was part of the problem. I didn't really know what he was doing. I was scrolling Instagram, you know, the usual blur post that you'll forget in 10 seconds.

3:06 And he looked up at me and he said, almost like he was describing the weather, not angry, you know, not having no, no volume in his voice, "You're always on your phone, Dad." And he, there was this, you know, I, I, I, I heard him and I almost, I was automatic and defensive and I said, "I'm not." And clearly I had the phone in my hand. Michael: Right. Mitesh: Then, and then I realized what I'd said and I said, "I just need to do this one thing." Right? I'm sure many of you, the listeners will, it was, probably feel themselves doing a similar thing to their kids.

3:49 And I started scrolling a few more seconds, and then I felt this heavy weight on my chest. You know, just my body tensing up, a little shake in my hand, and I put the phone down, not because I'd finished what I was doing, because I could feel it coming, that guilt, the, the overwhelm in my body around, you know, what my son had just said, and he'd seen me more clearly than probably I'd seen myself. And then I started thinking, "Well, how long have I been doing this?" and it took him to this moment to actually tell me that as well. So that started this massive journey around understanding myself.

4:30 Why was I there in the room but emotionally absent and not actually present with him? And actually even asking him what he's doing. I mean, we wouldn't do that to our loved ones, right? Be in the same room with them and be completely disengaged and, and look for an avenue out. But we do that so often and often I think we give ourselves excuses for why we're doing that. So that was a key moment. That was a big wake-up call for me. Michael: Absolutely. That's, it, I guess, in the way that your son presented to you so matter-of-factly, that it was just like maybe a, a shock to the system of like, Mitesh: Yeah.

5:14 Michael: A-, and for us as dads, like you said, it is so easy, especially in today's world where we all have smartphones, where alw-, we always have screens in front of us, Mitesh: it Michael: is so easy to fall into the trap of looking at the device in front of us 'cause it's constantly changing, it's constantly showing us new things instead of in-, appreciating what or who is in front of us, right? And there are those times, there are those moments, yes, it, there's nothing wrong with spending time on your phone, to a degree, right? But there is, is it the best decision to always put your device before your child or before the people you care about?

6:04 And it doesn't seem like, at least when I've caught myself doing it, it's like I don't realize I'm doing it Mitesh: That's right. Hmm. Michael: At that time, right? It's like you think you're doing something different. You don't realize that you're really just doom scrolling or reading, whatever it is that you're doing on your phone. But there's something else going on that's more important, and there's a time and a place for using your screen. There's a time and a place for, for not using your screen. And I think, you know, we only have so much time with our kids before they Mitesh: leave Michael: home and become independent and go out on their own, whether they go to school or they, you know, take on their own jobs and they move out into different houses, into their own house. They… Mitesh: Mm-hmm.

6:45 Michael: We have a limited number of hours, Mitesh: That's right. Michael: And how many of those hours do we want to waste on our phones? Because once they're out of the house, you'll have a lot more time to look at your phone. Now, I, I know it's easier to say that, and I've certainly Mitesh: That's right. Michael: Not been perfect in doing that, right, of like, not, o-, of putting my phone aside to make sure I focus and concentrate on my kids. But when I, as my kids get older, I'm, you know, taking a step back and taking some perspect-, putting some perspective on, like, what did I do? What could I have done? It's like, I only have so much time with them. Mitesh: That's right, yeah. Michael: How do I make most of that time? And almost every time, that answer is not going to be spend time on my phone while they're, while I'm with them, right?

7:29 Mitesh: No, and, and Michael, I think you rationally all makes sense. I think we're all rational, right, people, you know, you'd like to think. And well, I mean, we know these things are not good for us. We know alcohol's not good for us. We know smoking's not good for us, right? Okay, moderation is good. Everything in moderation to a degree, right? And it's, the, the challenge is our bodies are wired to form habits, right? Everyone's read, I'm sure heard about Atomic Habits. We're creatures of habits. We don't know half the time what we're doing because our brain is getting rewarded for, with the dopamine, the serotonin. And if it's a behavior that is that you can't, you know, stop doing and then in the long term is having an impact on you, I know Gabor Maté talks about that.

8:17 I think that's, that's an addiction, whether it's alcohol or, or smoking or it's your phone. And I think we do it automatically, but don't wanna sort of admit ourselves to it. And, you know, the flow on effects on our kids is like, not just like the time on your phone, but what it's telling them in the room is like, "This thing is so important to me right now that I can't even engage with you," right? They pick up everything. Like, they're sensing the environment, you know, and they're picking that up. And I think there might be some listeners of yours with older kids in their teenage years. You know, it's not too late as well. I've got kids that are eight years old, my son now, and, and six, my daughter.

8:58 And I think they're always watching. They're still watching you in terms of picking up so much from you. And you're one of their key ro-, role models, if not the role model for them. So I think you know, that behavior matters and, and getting conscious around it because that also has flow on effects onto, you know, problems, you know, child behavioral problems start with those sort of things. Studies have shown that parents that spend more time on their phone have kids that have behavioral problems more, act up more because, you know, it's giving them that disconnection message. So I think there's a lot to it.

9:40 I think it's easy to rationalize. Like you say, let's not put our phone away or whatever it is. But ultimately, we're creatures of habit, and I think we have to really go deep and unpack ourselves and figure out, why am I doing this? What am I actually really looking for? And, and yeah work from there. Michael: Yeah, I appreciate how you point out that the impact is more than just in the moment, right? It could be, lead to behavioral issues, it could lead to all sorts of things. But there's also the positive effect of demonstrating for your kids good behaviors, and also being there for them, being active with them, being present with them, I think, it oftentimes helps build their confidence and gives them other positive social skills to take on.

10:29 Whereas if we're constantly ignoring them, they might feel like they have to overcompensate to get attention or to do other things, right? So the impact that we have, there's kind of two impacts, right? There's impact in the moment, they feel ignored, but then what are the long-term effects of that? I don't know if we know precisely what those are, but there is, Mitesh: That's right. Michael: there's challenges that we might be creating by not being actively present. Mitesh: Yeah. I mean, there's lots of, there's lots of science out there that shows, you know, we, we're not, we're doing a disservice to our children the more disengaged we are with them, right? So, and it's easy to say and, and sometimes people need practical tools and ways to move themselves forward, right?

11:15 How, how, how do I be present? Everyone talks about presence, but how do I become present? Because, you know, I've got so much going on in my head, I'm drowning. Work's relentless. There's deadlines on deadlines. There's a proposal due. There's a client that wants this. I'm managing a team. There's expectations. There's wife that wants me to do A, B, C or partner. You know, h-h- I, I maybe not taking care of myself how I want to from an exercise perspective or what am I eating, what's good for me, what's bad for me, bills. There's so many things going on in our head and you feel, well, how do I just shut that all down or bring that down to a level where it's in the background and I can actually be here with my son or daughter?

11:56 I think that's the real challenging part that we have to work on. Michael: Absolutely. You bring up a, a point of like there's more than just the moments we have with our kids, right? It's also the work and your, your spouse and your, I mean, just the people in your orbit, like your friends and extended family and stuff. And, you know, I think a lot of dads tell themselves that they're working hard for their families, right? That like, "I am doing what I have to do at work to make sure that I provide." But you have told me before that, like, you realize that there, the difference between providing and being present, right, they're not necessarily the same thing.

12:43 At what point did you realize, like, the separation between providing and being present? Mitesh: Yeah, I think, you know, that moment that I talked about with the phone, that, that started a big journey of deep reflection. And I, I'd been probably journaling on and off for five years. I joined the men's group about five or six years ago when my, my son's eight now, so would've been longer. Seven years ago when my son was born, I, I was just completely lost in the dark around, you know, you read all the books, you get all the advice. When you hold your son or daughter or your, your child for the first time you know, that feeling that probably isn't many feelings is gonna come close to that, right?

13:30 And you feel absolutely amazing. And people are helping you out, your family, your friends, the, the, the great staff at the hospital. And very quickly over weeks and months, you realize you're on, you're on your own. You're learning this on your own. Often sleep deprived not thinking straight, not eating well, not taking care of yourself trying to work out what your, your child needs. And, you know, I, I wanted help at the time so relating with some other dads, and I wish there were more podcasts and things like this around at that point, what you're doing, Michael. 'Cause I think, you know, as dads, we don't voice our thoughts and feelings and emotions, let's call it, you know, the softer stuff.

14:12 It's you know, we can get into all things around mac-, masculinity and what modern masculinity looks like, but I think because of that, we bottle things up, right? And it becomes a pressure valve, you know, it's not getting released. And then there'll be a moment where we just let it all out and break down. So, you know, that, there's been sort of years of sort of reflection and, and, and journaling and talking to other dads. But I think, you know, I, one of those moments, like that, that moment with my son and then, then thinking about, "Okay, well, I'm giving him everything. A roof over his head. He's got good education he goes to.

14:52 He's happy, he's healthy, food on the table. I'm sacrificing, I'm providing." And, and I had to sort of really dig into, well, w-, why do I feel that's enough? Or why, is that enough? You know, there is an element of that. There's, there's a lot of history in that story, right, in terms of sacrifice equals love and it equals working hard and, and a fridge that's full, an education that's paid. And that story, you know, a mortgage that's paid off in, in 15, 20 years or whatever it is, or longer these days, that story we've all been taught. And, and I think we have to sort of unpack that story and go, there's, there's some good merit in that story, but perhaps it also detracts away from a new or an altered story we can create with our children.

15:42 Because do they really, of course, they appreciate that to a degree. If you just think about Maslow's hierarchy of needs, you need your basic needs, right? But beyond a point, they're not gonna really care about the brand of clothes you wear, the car you drive, the watch you wear, the house you have. You know, they just really want you to be there. And they're not really gonna remember what you achieved at work as well, if, if they are. So I think it's, it's really going deep into that story and going, what, what story do you want your kids to remember? Do they, do they want, you know, you, do you want that sort of sacrifice story and, and that, that is, that, that has importance to a degree, right?

16:22 Or do you want to sort of start to create a different story where your kids remember you for something else? They remember you for being around teaching them, you know, real life skills and, and, and being with them and playing with them. Often, you know, we've all heard sort of kids' sort of language of talk is, is play. And I'm not talking about sort of taking them to dance practice or soccer practice or, you know, piano lessons. That's very structured time. What's that unstructured time where you literally are on the floor with them playing dollhouses, doing cafes, building Lego, you know, doing some coloring? That time is the real connection time, right?

17:02 And if you are there but thinking about something else, you're not really there. And that's what we have to do. And I, I, I, the journey took me to look somewhere I hadn't thought of looking which is, which we can talk about, is, is really looking b-, into my body, right? I thought I could just think myself to be calm and be present, but you, you really can't because your body con-, your body and mind are one thing. And, and if you have built up stress, anxieties, fears, things you're thinking about, if you don't release them, they're, they're gonna come through in other ways by you effectively being disengaged in the room. Michael: Absolutely. Absolutely. I want to get to that in a moment.

17:43 I d-, but I want to point out something you said just a little bit earlier of like Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: What your kids are going to remember, right? And as my kids get older, what I'm learning is they remember specific moments, not particular, the particular achievements, but not like what I accomplish at work. They're not gonna remember if I closed a deal or not. Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: They are gonna remember that time that we made dinner together and, you know, something funny happened, right? Or they're gonna remember that time that we took out the Slip 'N Slide in the backyard and dad joined in and I, you know, myself soaking wet with them, like, Mitesh: Yeah, yeah.

18:23 Michael: playing with the, the water toys in the backyard. They remember those moments. They don't remember whether I responded to an email before I got on this call, right? So, Mitesh: Absolutely. Michael: a certain perspective that is very hard, was very hard for me at least, to recognize in the moment of like, what really does matter at the end of the day, right? Yes, we got to g-, meet our basic needs, right, but Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: the things that are going to last, the memories, the, the experiences, Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: those tend to be much more important than whether or not I respond to a client at 5:30 PM or the next morning at 8:00 AM.

19:11 Mitesh: Mm-hmm. That's right. Michael: Right, so it's like trying to figure out what that, where the balance is. Because yes, I do want to do work that means something to me and that produces something that I'm proud of, but at the end of the day, how I accomplish that is different than what I want to do at home. So, like, to me, family comes before my business, so it, it's like, do I, do I need to get this thing done now? Can I get it done? Yes. If not, can it wait? You know, what is important in the moment, right? And then, you know, you, you talk about this like pressure release valve if, 'cause you're building up stress all the time, right?

19:57 So it's like making those decisions become stressful, right? Of like, Mitesh: That's right. Michael: what do, you know, which thing do I choose now? What do I need to do? Even though I know what the correct answer is most of the time, but then it's like, okay, well, if I don't do, if I don't get back to this customer now, am I, are they going to be upset? Are they going to go look for somebody else? That type of thing. And you start to build these things out, and then it's like, okay, well, am I doing everything I should be doing for my kids, or could I, you know, be spending more time with them? Could I be doing something for my spouse? And then I forge-, you forget about like taking care of yourself too, right, 'cause if you don't take care of yourself, it's hard to do the other. It's hard to, to keep up at work. It's hard to take care of those you care about, of your family.

20:40 And so if you don't get rid of that stress, if you don't take care of yourself, you're not gonna show up for the others that, that are important to you. And, you know, you often talk about state, being the real issue, not time, right? Like I can make my decisions on Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: like what I'm gonna do in the next hour, but there's also this idea of state. Can you explain what you mean by that? Mitesh: Hmm. Well, I think the likes of Tony Robbins probably first talked about state, you know, many years ago, and I, I'm, I'm sure like many of your listeners probably read, have read the book "Awaken the Giant Within" by Tony Robbins, right? Probably 30, 40 years old now.

21:20 And, and state is, is really, you know, your physiology. How are you turning up? And I think most dads looked at where am I gonna make time for my partner or my kids to do A, B, C, whatever it is, right? And I think, you know, you can often give your kids like a whole hour, but you're still like wounded, distracted, snapping at things, and ultimately it doesn't count for anything, right, 'cause you're not there. But if you give them the genuine 15, 20 minutes of playtime where you are there with them, maybe it's just 10 minutes, it's the quant-, it's not the quantity, it, it's the quality of time you're giving them, right?

22:07 Because they, firstly, they don't really have any sense of time anyway. You know, you tell them five minutes, we're, we're going out the door, they have no idea what that is. So I think fixing the, your state really goes back to, you know our ancestral times and really working out, you know, our, our, our, our bodies. How do we turn up in a state where we can actually be present and, and connect with our loved ones, right? So, like I said, there's a physiological reasons for it. So we think about day after day. We all, you know, most households, I should say, probably have, you know, if you're in a family situation, then you, you probably have both partners working or at least one point five.

22:53 It's, it's, it's not easy in today's modern life to just, you know, be off one income. But day, day after day, you're under pressure. Your body is carrying stress from the pressure of work, right? So, you know, back in hunter-gatherer times, what did that look like? I think we've all heard the story where, you know, there's a lion and we're, we're running away from that lion, right? And, and there's a fight or flight response when that happens. We're often running away, probably not fighting that lion. So what happens? We run away and hopefully we escape, and then our body releases all that cortisol, adrenaline that's built up, and it tells itself, "Now you're calm. Now you can go back to what you were doing." You know, being with your loved ones around the tribe.

23:39 You know, talking connecting, cooking dinner, whatever it is, but the lion doesn't exist in today's modern age. It just comes in other forms. It's emails, it's deadlines, it's bills, right? It's what's in the fridge, what's for dinner tonight, what, who needs new school shoes, what's going on on the weekend around around sports. And, and so all this stress, it could be, you know, so many things. The proposal that's due, the client that's wanting ABC. So our, our body is actually holding on to this stress.

24:21 The cortisol builds up and it shows up in other ways, right? So our back's hurting, our, our, our knee's a little bit sore or we're not sleeping as well. And ultimately, we get up at two or three or four AM and think, "Well, why can't I put myself back to sleep?" Because your cortisol is still elevated from the day and you haven't released it. You haven't re-, you haven't told your body to come back down into a regulated state. And, you know, the science behind it, you, you, you know, I'm sure you're listeners know elements to this, but polyvagal theory really goes into it. You know, our body's nervous system, when the lion comes, it, there's a stimulus, right? There's a reaction. Our safe, calm, safe, and secure sort of state is the base state.

25:06 That's where we can think clearly, right? That's where the blood is in front, in, in our prefrontal cortex, right? We can think clearly. When the lion comes, the blood rushes away from there. So now we can't think anymore, right? The, it's actually literally moving away from the thinking part of your brain. And now you're in sort of survival mode. And I think most people are in survival mode, and at least I was, day in, day out. And the next stage from that is shutdown mode. So if survival mode goes on for too long and you don't release the stress, you completely shut down and you disengage from the people around you, right? And I think many dads probably see themselves there or have been there, and I know I was, at least every second day.

25:46 So you have to tell your body to come back down into a safe and secure state, right? So that's releasing that cortisol and, and, and telling the body that, you know, the danger's gone now, you can calm down and you can come back down to earth. So that's what I mean by state, and it can be as simple as, you know, short breath, breath in, long exhale out. If we just take two short breaths in, automatically you're sort of calming yourself down. It's movement, it's de-stressing, it's getting rid of that cortisol and adrenaline.

26:26 It's telling the body that lion's gone now, right? And there's other things, of course, we can all do, but it's getting yourself back into safe and secure and not sitting in that survival mode or shutdown mode day in, day out, because that's where we can't show up. That's when we're in the room still thinking about 100 things and actually figuring, trying to think to ourselves, "Why can't I just be present? Why can't I just have a conversation and actually engage here?" It's because we're carrying all that cortisol and stress that hasn't been released. Michael: Right. And regulating that allows you to not only resolve the situation in the moment or get you back to a place where you can participate again, but also over the long term, I think, from what I understand, is that things like breathwork and mindfulness, exercise can allow you to regu-, regulate those extremes of the nervous system, right, so they don't occur as frequently or as harsh as they would otherwise.

27:35 Mitesh: Yeah, that's right. And, and some, for some people you think, well, you know, it's all meditation. It sounds sort of woo-woo, but it's not. It's, it's, it's biology. It's sort of science, right? Our bodies are, as much as we think we're evolved, we're, we, we can still go back to the hunter-gatherer times, and you think about how much we used to move those days, right? Now we just sit in traffic, sit at our desk, sit around the home on the lounge. We just sit. So we just build up all that cortisol, right? So that's why I look to, I look to my body first and I didn't think, you know, that would be the place that would actually reset my mind and bring me back down to safe and secure, but it actually was. Michael: Yeah, and it's such a simple practice, too, right?

28:19 Of particularly, breathwork, mindfulness. Like, they're not things that, yes, you can study them to, and come up with a million different exercises, but there are things you can implement right away. Like, you already suggested one of two short breaths in, one long breath out. Like, that is something you can just implement today. And I know you… Mitesh: By the way, Michael, a-, anytime I feel like I'm getting stressed, it's often the first thing I do, and automatically within 10 or 15 seconds, I already feel myself g-, putting the brakes on slowing down and br-, coming back down. So I think it's, that's one simple thing. But yeah, obviously you don't have to do half an hour, hour of, of meditation or whatever it is.

29:01 It's simple breathwork, and there are lots of other things that we can all do to, to sort of reset ourselves. Michael: Yeah, I think for myself, and I, I'm the same way, I will focus on my breathing when I get anxious, when I get stressed. I realize that anxiety and stress cause me to forget to breathe, right, is really what it comes down to. I'm not breathing normally or regularly, and when I realize that I'm in a stressful situation or I am anxious, the first thought that comes to my mind now is breathe, right? Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: Whether it's box breathing of, you know, a Mitesh: couple Michael: seconds in, hold, couple seconds, couple seconds out, hold again, and just keep repeating that pattern, or many of the other breathwork techniques that, that I've learned over the past couple years.

29:48 Breathing, for me, works just as effectively, I think, as, as you said it does for you. And it's things like for us as dads of like when we're done f-, with work for the day and we're stressed from work, we're coming home, we walk in the door, do you take a moment to settle your breathing down, to Mitesh: Absolutely. Michael: Maybe get some of that stress out before you walk through the threshold and, you know, greet the rest of your family that's, that's waiting on you to, to start the night, right? You can implement these things very simply and without actually having to really change or add time to your day, right?

30:29 You can build them into your existing routine. It could just Mitesh: That's right. Michael: be that the moments from even if you work from home, of walking out of whatever room you're working in to whatever room your family is in, you use those five steps to take a deep breath, two deep breaths, and just regulate yourself before you come in, and so you don't carry some of that stress from work into your family life as much as you previously had. Mitesh: Absolutely. Michael: So for you, from what you've told me, running became a big part of your reset process, right? Mitesh: Hmm. Michael: What role, we've talked a lot about breathing, and you mentioned a little bit about movement. What role has movement played in helping you become more present, particularly as, as a father?

31:17 Mitesh: Well, that was probably right at the cornerstone of everything because coming back to my body meant telling my body that, you know, the, the, the, the stress has, has passed, right? And I'd probably built this up for years. So, you know, I was, initially started running because I wanted to get healthier. And what I started to realize is actually every time I went for a run I'd turn up much more present, and I'd be able to be focused with my kids, with my partner and actually think clearly in the room. And I found the connection between, you know, ultimately what the science says is all that cortisol, all that stress, all that anxiety was getting released, you know, every day, not just, you know, once a week or whatever it was.

32:09 You know, I wasn't necessarily not being physically active. I was, you know, going to the gym sort of three times a week, probably walking two times a week. I wasn't really running, and I was never a runner. And I think, you know, I just started to change those walks into let me run 100 meters, right? It might be 45 minutes around the neighborhood. You can see my room. Those that will be on video. I've got a treadmill here now, right? So again, building an environment which encourages me to move and de-stress, right? So if I've just had a stressful call, you know, I can continue to go straight into another call, or I can take 10 or 15 minutes and jump on that, right?

32:51 Just a quick walk. If, even if it's cold or rainy or whatever it is, is outside, I don't have to leave anywhere. I'm building an environment that sort of helps me reset, right? And for a lot of people, they, if they can't do breathwork and sit still and do mindfulness practices, then running is like meditation or some sort of physical activity can become your meditation, right? You can sort of switch off. You can tell your body to come back down, and those 100 meters turn into two to 500 meters. Then it was a kilometer. And I quickly found, you know, my body was getting lighter. Physically, I was losing weight as well, which was sort of a byproduct. And, you know, legs felt that were heavy, the knees that ached.

33:36 I could hold my breath longer. Things were changing, right? And I found that ratio was changing from walking to running. And every time I, as I said, I came back, I just felt different, a different person when I walked through the door. I had energy, real energy. I found the noise in my head was, was calmed down and it was quiet. It was in the background. I was there. I was physically present. And perhaps the, the sort of weight training wasn't doing what it needed to in my body. While it helped sort of muscle definition and probably some level of stress release, I think aerobic exercise does something where you reduce those cortisol levels and adrenaline, the body's stress hormones come down and you produce those endorphins in, you know, big quantities, especially if you go 45 minutes to an hour, which is, you know, people talk about the runner's high and it's, it's a real thing where your natural mood elevates all that dopamine, serotonin is flooding your system.

34:42 But it doesn't have to be an hour, right? It can be simple as 10, 20 minutes, 30 minutes, whatever it is. It's making it regular enough and finding habits and routines and getting enough movement in where you break a bit of a sweat and reset that body. Because we were doing that this hundreds, and thousands of years ago. We were running away from threats every day. We were probably moving 10 to 15Ks at least, and many of us probably don't move two Ks now. We sit at our desks, as I said. We sit everywhere around our home. Michael: Yep. Mitesh: that was a, that was a key part is, is get your health and your body right, and tell your body you can actually come down from the stress levels, and that starts with physical movement.

35:25 Michael: Absolutely. And so this physical movement has allowed you to be more present, right? It's more emotionally present, more mentally present, particularly, you know, we talked about at home. But does it work on the, in the other direction? Does it, has there been any unexpected carryover into your career or leadership by Mitesh: Yeah. Michael: implementing some of these, these things to… Mitesh: It's, it's funny you say that because, you know, I, I look back in my career, I've been in market research and consulting work for almost 20 years now. And I, I look back on the last, you know, probably when I got really got myself physically fit, and I know I'm sure a lot of your listeners may relate to this as well, you turn up with more energy everywhere, right?

36:11 And, and, and people see that, and we pick that up. You know, our, our body's nervous system picks up the energy in the room. And the last two years have probably been, you know, right up there in terms of the success of my career and how I'm doing in my career and, and, and, and the achievements I'm making at work. It's really interesting, you know, changing yourself at home, working on yourself mentally and physically and working on your body. It has, it just transfers across to the energy that you bring everywhere you go. Not just the home, but your career as well. Clients see it, your boss sees it, your teams see it, your colleagues see it. And everyone starts saying, "You know, you look, you look fresher, you look younger, your skin's glowing." And all these things really are, you know, from all the work you're doing around physical movement, but also not just that.

37:04 As, as we said, it's, it's releasing that stress, right? So those, those, those things show up in the body, and they show up in different ways. The bags under your eyes, the, you know, the, the bod-, the skin looking dull. And, and I think you really just reset yourself and you can turn up better as a leader at work. And you, you, you know, I think you'll quietly surprise yourself that actually it's helping you not just in home, but actually you're probably having the best years of your career as well because that energy you are now bringing it, you know, I haven't got the word for it, but it just sort of flows really out into everybody else.

37:46 Michael: Right, it seems like the energy feeds on itself. The more energy you generate by becoming more physically active, by calming your, yourself down, your brain down, you're able to, you have this boost of energy, but that energy then creates more energy, right? And you just, you have more to expend as time goes on and the more that you continue to take care of yourself, right, but again, you have to, we're talking here about taking care of yourself first so that you can take care of the other aspects of your life, right? Like, you know, we started this conversation of being present in the moment with family, right, but in order to do that, you kind of have to take a step back and take care of yourself first, right?

38:37 Like, it wasn't like, yeah, you could put your phone away or try to be more cognizant, but it, it's harder to do when you still aren't emotionally available and present with your kids because you're still, the temptation will still be just as strong. But the more you're able to start to regulate your nervous system or Mitesh: That's right. Michael: whatever it may be, like, the easier it becomes to be present, right? But the only way to do that is Mitesh: Yes. Michael: To make sure you also take care of yourself, right? That's the first step. Mitesh: And I think, Michael, you know, there might be a lot of your listeners going, "Well, I just don't have time for that." Like, where do you make time to do this, right? It's all a time, ultimately it's a ta-, trade-off of time, but I think whether it's time or priorities or, you know, whatever you call it, work-life balance.

39:27 But I think, you know, the research is really clear around people that move and get physically active, right? It lowers your cortisol res, responses to that physiological stress. Our, our bodies start to recover faster from stress as well in the first place, and we show up better and we, we build this thing called stress re-, resilience, right, through that constant physical activity. So that's not just stress resilience in the body, that's the mind as well, right? So being able to cope with difficult situations better, whether that's at work and stress around hitting your KPIs, your numbers, your bonuses, or whether that's at home and that's you know, demands of running a household with kids with your partner, et cetera.

40:13 And I think, you know, there will be some really hard moments to build those habits, right? So I know the, the early days were, were absolutely brutal. And, you know, I know the US gets pretty cold, but Melbourne gets very cold, wet, and, and rainy in, in winter. And then I remember I started in winter, where it was actually a year ago where I started in, in just over a year ago in July, and, you know, some, some days it was like zero degrees, zero minus two Celsius, I should say. So freezing basically, right? Michael: Yep. Mitesh: So, and I'd layer up thermals, jacket, beanie, gloves, and I chose to go at five AM in the dark and cold.

40:57 You know, my breath was fogging in front of me. I started moving. And why five AM? Because I knew myself, and I think a lot of dads will probably see themselves in this, as well, is if you don't carve out time for yourself, whenever that is, and I found morning was the best, is we all know the demands of the day get to you, whether it's your kids, your partner, your boss, the clients. At the end of the day, you're depleted. So you just need to know yourself and go, "When can I give my s-, time to myself where I can actually work on myself and, and then show up better at work, at home," effectively. And initially it was five AM and, and that could build the habit, but then that wasn't sustainable in the long term, right?

41:38 Because I felt you know, and then, then I adjusted things because I felt, well, I was, that worked really well to get the habit in place. But then I was too tired at night to hang out with my partner and connect, or I was missing part of the morning lunch boxes and routine with the kids because I'd come home late from a run and shower and get ready for work. So I think you may need to make a short-term sacrifice, but in the long term, it's finding what's sustainable as well. Michael: Right. I think a another potential alternative is to figure out ways you can integrate that physical movement with your kids, with your family, right?

42:19 Mitesh: Yeah. Michael: Do some of the, those activities together. Mitesh: Absolutely. Michael: You know, especially if you're starting out, you're not in good shape, and you might have to start a little bit slower and maybe not do it for as long a period of time, you know, at all at once. You can, you know, play with the kids outside. You could, depending on age, maybe you guys go for a walk together or ride bikes together or just do something physically active Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: together, right? And now you're kind of, you're accomplishing multiple things, right? You're taking care of yourself. You're also spending quality time with those you care about, right? Mitesh: Yes Michael: And you're setting an example for your kids to follow of healthy habits, right?

43:04 Mitesh: That's right. Michael: So there's, you know, you don't have to start, I, I imagine in running a marathon, you don't start by running the marathon. You start with, Mitesh: No. Michael: you know, whatever distance, whatever short distance, right? And you keep building, building, and building upon that, right? Mitesh: That's right Michael: So, when dads say, "We don't have time," and I've certainly made this excuse before in the past, you don't have time or you just haven't figured out a way to get started, take that first step, even if it's five minutes? If you can't fi-, fi-, find five minutes in your schedule in a week, Mitesh: you Michael: probably have schedule issues that you need to address, right, 'cause even if it's five minutes as you are cleaning up after dinner, like maybe you're doing some exercises while you are cleaning up.

43:57 Mitesh: Yeah. Michael: Or maybe you're, you know, you find, you steal two minutes here taking the, the trash to the curb, and you steal two minutes there, you know, as you wait for the, the water to heat up, as you are making dinner or taking a shower, whatever it may be. Like, you can, those times can start to stack, right? And before you know it, you're starting to find some actual time there where you can build some of these habits. It's the, I think, in most cases, at least for me, the excuse of not having enough time is really not an ex-, it, it's an excuse for not having the motivation to get started or not knowing exactly how to get started, right?

44:39 But once Mitesh: It's the hardest part. It is. Michael: you get started, you can start to stack. Mitesh: That's right. Hard, starting is the hardest part. So, so just I think everybody knows themselves, and figure out what you need to do to motivate yourself to get started to build the discipline. Because once you build the discipline and the habit, then the rewards will start coming, right? So just like you said, start small but y-, you know yourself and, and what do you need to do to, to, to get started, because starting is the hard part. Michael: Absolutely. All right, one more question before we get into the speed round. When your kids Mitesh: Yeah. Michael: look back years from now, what do you hope they'll remember most about the kind of dad you became after making these changes?

45:25 Mitesh: Yeah. Look, I, I, I hope they remember the small moments, right? So I think it's, you know, it's, it's being there with them in those most vulnerable moments. It's teaching them how to be, how to be, you know, kind, kind-hearted people with strong minds, strong bodies with, with, you know, those good values and ethics being, being part of the community. And I hope they remember the, like I said, those moments and, and, and I've modeled what a man should be, what a dad should be, what to expect from, at least for my daughter as well, you know.

46:15 If she chooses a man in the future, then what, what should that be? And I've also taught my son, you know, what a good dad looks like. And, and, and, you know, it's not just about the sacrifice, it's, it's making sure that you are connecting with your loved ones and they, they're learning those, those skills at home, and they remember how I made them feel, not what I had for them and what I gave them beyond that, like the physical material things. So, yeah, that, that's what I do hope for in, in both of them. Michael: Love that. That's great. That's, I, I appreciate you sharing that with us. Now, we're gonna go from the serious and sentimental to the Mitesh: Yeah.

46:59 Michael: completely unserious in the speed round, which has nothing to do with anything. Five quick questions for you, starting with what's the first kid's show theme song that comes to mind? Mitesh: Yeah, I think this one was running for many years. Paw Patrol. You know, "We'll be there on the double." Michael: For sure. Mitesh: That's burned into every brain of every parent, if you like it or not. So, yeah, Paw Patrol. Michael: For sure. For sure. What was your very first job? Mitesh: Oh, yes. So this is an interesting one. So I, I started, you know, probably like most teenagers want to earn some money, probably starts earlier these days with, you know, our younger kids doing housework. But I started a paper run when I was 13.

47:42 And so you're delivering the local newspaper to the neighborhood. I think there was like 800 or 1,000 newspapers around the neighborhood. And I remember I'd get, I still remember it, $11.35 was what I got to deliver those newspapers. And I'd get up at 5:00, you know, deliver most of it before school. My dad would drop off various bags on the corner of various streets that we'd packed all the newspapers, and I'd finish up in the afternoon if I hadn't done all of it in the morning before school. And, you know, I'd always get very excited when it rained because if you bagged the newspapers, you got extra few dollars as well. So it might be $15 or $16. And I, and I was actually reflecting on this recently and going, "You know what? That 5:00 AM routine started very young. I just lost it over many years, and I knew I could do it."

48:29 And it just shows up in a different way now, right? And I think we, we can all look back to a time where we've actually sacrificed and felt really good about ourselves, and we just need to bring that back. So yeah, that was my first job. Michael: Absolutely. Love that. That's got a tough job, 800 or 1,000 newspapers? Mitesh: Yes. Pay wasn't very good at the time, you know? Michael: Yeah, that's a lot of physical, physical work there. Alright, would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler? Mitesh: Yeah, toddler-sized T-Rex no question. I, I've survived actual toddlers, but having a T-Rex-sized tantrum, I don't think I could manage that. No amount of breathwork will help.

49:12 Michael: That's fair. That's fair. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you would sing if you had to? Mitesh: Well, I don't do a lot of karaoke, but may-, maybe one of the Michael Jackson songs, "Billie Jean" or something like that. Yeah, I think I'll do that. Michael: Great song. And, finally, what's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets? Mitesh: So, for years, I, I don't know why I did this, maybe it made me feel smarter, but I carried a physical calculator. So you know, we have our phones, we have our spreadsheets. I'm in market research. You know, you're, you're doing pricing for clients, you're writing proposals. But I don't know why I carried a calculator but I did.

49:55 And then I, I think it was only two or three years ago I took it out of my bag. So probably 15 years of carrying a calculator in my bag. Michael: Practical. It can be. I guess it depends on your, on your job. Mitesh: Absolutely. Michael: Mitesh, before we wrap up, where can people learn more about you, connect with your work, and get your book? Mitesh: Yeah, look the t- the book I've written is called "Fight or Father: Using CALM," which is a bit of a framework built on science, "Using CALM to Stop Reacting and, and Start Connecting." And it's it's out now. So any dad that would like that, you can look at Amazon where you can find the book, and any sort of good bookstore will have it as well. But yeah, if you just search "Fight or Father," you can go to my website as well and find me there.

50:39 But, yeah, that's, the book's out on Amazon, so it's probably the best place to grab it. Michael: Excellent. Appreciate that. We'll make sure to link to all that in the show notes. Mitesh, thank you so much for, for joining me today. I really appreciate your message because I think it gives dads hope, right? I think we've all felt similar feelings to this, or have been in situations that are similar to what you've been in. It might not have been exactly, you know, the words that our kids have used, but we've all been distracted at some point, right? We've all been pulled in directions we didn't necessarily want to be pulled into. And you have turned it around to, you didn't, like, give up your job and move into the wilderness and, right?

51:25 You just, you found a practical solution for you. You're not asking fathers to become perfect or totally reinvent their lives, right? You're just, you demonstrate, you found some small shifts for you that work in terms of shifts in awareness and presence, but they have a meaningful impact beyond just you, right? It impacts yourself, it impacts your work, impacts your family, your friends, the people who matter most. So I'm grateful for the conversation and for the, the work you're doing. Th-, this book is super exciting to me. I, I mean, the title alone is, like, everything I hope Gap to Gig, you know, is Mitesh: Mm-hmm. Michael: trying to promote, right?

52:06 And the, your frameworks are so smart and practical, and I just, I love everything about that. So thank you again for joining me. I appreciate it. And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between, navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com, subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday, and it's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now. And if this conversation resonated, consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.