Paul Moore on Building a Business Without Missing Fatherhood

0:00 Paul: The idea is if you just are s-, always sitting on your idea, they're not gonna come to you, "Hey, do you have any ideas?" You know, you have to get that out there, you know? And so many things I've thought of, and I've thought, "Okay, that'd be a good idea. I should, I should look into making this." A year later I'll see it's on there, and I'm like, "Oh, I, I sat on my butt, you know? I would've made it, but…" You know, but Michael: Yeah Paul: I always, I always tell my friends who ask for advice, or anyone asks for advice, I tell them that, is, "Don't sit on your idea, because someone else will come up with it." Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for dads navigating the in-between season when work, identity, and priorities start asking different questions.

0:45 Here we talk about what that season looks like and how to move through it with intention. I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and today's guest is Paul Moore, founder of Smiley Mia, an innovative babies products company whose products are now sold around the world, but Paul's path to entrepreneurship wasn't exactly conventional. After college, he spent more than a decade living and working in China before returning to the United States to work as a commercial fisherman in Alaska. Later, he became a single father, and that inspired him to solve a problem he experienced firsthand, leading him to invent one of the world's best-selling silicone teethers and build a global consumer brand from the ground up. Paul, I'm so glad you're here. Welcome to the show. Paul: Hey, thanks for having me, Michael. It's been a pleasure talking to you in the past. I'm glad we can do this on officially on paper now.

1:26 Michael: Absolutely. I appreciate that. So you've lived in several v-, you've lived several very different lives already, right? China, commercial fishing, becoming a single dad, now you're building a consumer brand that's gone global. Looking back, how do you think each of these different chapters of your life shaped you? Paul: I think they all kind of just molded me to, to be ready to be a, not only a good father, but also to create something that will help other parents, you know, get life a little easier. I think the first two years of life I was in China. I had met a local, and we had our daughter. So it's, my daughter's made in China, you know, but during the process we just realized we were, we ran into it really quick, so I became a single father over in China rather quick.

2:15 But to my benefit, it just gave me so much time with my kid, and it gave me so many windows of what was missing and what could be improved on. About that time a lot of the toys were made out of rubber and plastic, and parents were cutting them open and finding mold inside. So I was already a paranoid dad. I was like, "Okay, I'm not giving my daughter any of that." My mom gave me a frozen sock, so I figured I, I could get by with what I could find without giving her those options. But in the back of my mind I always had some ideas of something that could be more interactive with the kid. You know? Typically the first three and four months they're just given just that standard pacifier, and nothing changed from when I was a kid from when my mom was a kid.

3:00 So we're talking a few generations now where this was the only thing they had offered. And I just knew there could be something the baby could interact with. I just didn't know it would take off like it did. You know, I never knew it would blow up like it has. Michael: Yeah. Do you think that your time in China, because the, was it the products that were available to you there that kind of was like, "I could do this better"? Or do you think it was just like you as a father just wanted something different for your child? Like, how do you feel like the, I know you said, like, you've had the same things for generation upon generation, you know, maybe it's time for something different.

3:45 Like, what was the real inspiration for you? Was it just, was it frustration that inspired you or was it motivation to be like, "I want to do something different for my child"? Paul: I think it was my team. We just, we had a lot of experience with mold injection 'cause we did computer cables and keyboard and mouse, but it was the same process. It's injection mold. It's where you make a mold of your product in a, a big metal mold and you inject substance into it to take that shape. And I'd just done it for a decade. I knew it so well. I knew the raw materials. I knew even where to go to find, the silicone I use is called platinum silicone. It's just a very unique silicone. It's really skin-like to touch.

4:27 And I think sourcing my silicone for a couple years, finding just the right type of silicone, the right manufacturer, and taking my time, I think paid in din-, in dividends because we were one of the first silicone teethers. And it's just such a great material. It can be frozen. I have a couple freezables. It can handle high temperature for sterilization, and that's why it's used in a lot of medical devices as well. But it's also really durable. You can take, I mean, a baby can really take a really good tear to it and it's gonna be hard to even break this kind of substance. So ideally it was just perfect for what I was coming up with. Michael: Yeah. Paul: My penguin is what made the name for it, and touching being a father, that 100% influenced this product.

5:15 We were, had a few animals we were designing. We were thinking, okay, we knew we wanted to come up with an animal, and when we were going through all them, when we hit the penguin, we had all just, there was a little bit of a penguin craze that year like Happy Feet and all that stuff was happening, but in doing so, we watched some documentaries and realized that in some species, the male penguin raises the baby. The mother lays the egg and bounces. The, the father hatches the egg, raises the baby up, and they just laughed. They said, "That's so your story." And that's why we went with the penguin. And just really, I mean, it's, it's been kind of a magical situation. My team and I, we've been together for over 20 years now. They were together when Mia was taking her first steps.

5:57 I was taking her to the office all the time. And, so we really are kinda like a family atmosphere. I'm uncle to her kids, and we've named our companies after our kids. This one's named after mine. We have another company called Dommy, and that's 'cause my business partner's son was always saying, "Why don't we have a company named after me?" You know? And so just as a joke, we said, "When we start another company, we're, we're gonna name it after you." But in the baby world, just Dommy just lines up with, like, mommy, and it, with this logo we have here, just really fit and just goes, like I said, everything's really fitting into place naturally, but that's from our years of experience and years of working together.

6:38 Michael: Right. Right. That's an amazing story. I, I love how you were able to, th-, this kind of came to fruition because you fell back on your experience and your knowledge. Like, you had experience with injection molding. You had experience and had contacts for materials. You used what was available to you, right? You took advantage of the resources that you built over time, the experience that you built over time and created something that was meaningful for you. Now, not everybody, you know, has the, the contacts in the right industry, but we all have something. We've all experienced something, and it's like, how do we make the most of the experiences that we've had, right?

7:20 I want my kids to have experiences so that they can learn things and come up with new ideas. And, you know, they don't have to start their own companies. My kids could, you know, but they can, "Okay, hey, you know, I have experience doing this thing. Maybe I can help somebody else with that too," right? And you've taken your experience and built something to help other parents really to help their kids, right? You're, I mean, you're helping both because parents are con-, concerned about the kids. The kids are, you know, just trying to get through the, the teething phases and some of the other, you know, initial growth phases. I just, I appreciate how you took advantage of your, I shouldn't say take advantage, but how you leveraged your experience to build something that meant something to you, right?

8:02 Like, I think a lot of dads, we, we aspire to do something similar, right, where we are able to leverage our knowledge, leverage our experience to do something meaningful, right? For you, it was building Smiley Mia and Dommy, right? It's like you're taking things that you've learned in the past and building something new from that, that would have an impact on the, on society at large, right, in, in terms of building product for, for newborns and infants and, and toddlers. That just, to me, that is so inspirational but what's really interesting to me is, okay, so you started building this company in China, right? And then you became a fisherman in Alaska.

8:48 How does… Paul: it's weird. So I had, we had the idea. My team, we started out, w-, I was running a, when I had my daughter, I couldn't keep up the schedule of the manufacturing world. I just knew if I, if I was gonna do that, I wasn't gonna be a present father. I'd be one of those helicopter dads that would come in and sure, we had a nice home, but it wouldn't feel like a home. It would just be a house. So when I had my daughter, I was financially able to give my notice. I said, "I'm, I'm gonna take a couple years and be a father." What I hadn't planned on was after a few months, I had someone approach me in the golf industry. So I was in China already. I was going to Hong Kong for my visa quite often, and this guy knew me and vouched for me.

9:31 So I started working with a golfer from the UK. His name was Nick Faldo. He's, he's the announcer on a lot of TVs in, in America, but at the time, we had a lot of similar clientele I was already working with, and I was able to step in and do that for him for a couple years. And that's when I met my secretary that I work with now. That's my business partner now. So we actually started out a little bit of a golf company we were doing for a short run, and we did that for a few years. So we have this long history together that you can't buy, you know, we, you can't pay for. But when I had moved to the, back to the States before, right when I was going to Alaska, we just missed working together and she started actually working for a, a teether company, and we just kept in touch, and she was telling me all the problems, and I was telling her a couple of solutions.

10:25 And I was like, "Well, manufacturing, we can make something better out of silicone maybe." But we just kept in touch over those years when I was fishing, and I had the revenue at that point too. To start a business takes a little money to get started. There's a few steps before you even get a product sample in hand. And so being a fisherman, I was able to use my fishing money for good, is what we joke. You know, a lot of my fisherman friends would go to the bar, they'd buy a truck, they'd buy a motorcycle. You know, they, they have fun. We, we have fun 'cause we work really hard. I just wanted something to show for it. I wanted something that I could have, "Okay, this is what I earned during my fishing years. I built, built this up." But there was a lot of hats, Michael.

11:07 I was wearing a lot of different hats. I was a single dad. I was, you know, moving to an island in Alaska. I was fishing and then, but still, we missed our team, our core team. And I think that's the most valuable thing. If you have a good team, I tell that about anyone starting out, if you're with someone you can trust and that you work well with, it's so priceless. Even if it's a little less money you make out of it, the deal, but that connection you can make is priceless. And I, I think I built more business off of partnerships and relationships than I have off of a specific product really that I've noticed over a theme over the years.

11:47 But that's one thing, I, I do think I have taken advantage though. I did take advantage of my time there. I wasn't shy about that at all. When I went into the factory, I let them know, "I lived here for several years. I know where people can cheat, I know where people can lie, and I don't want any of that to happen." You know, I, I've really approached it different than a lot of newbies over there, fresh off the boat over there. Just like we talk about people fresh off the boat here, the, I was fresh off the boat over there several years. I was just learning, I was training, I was observing, and just kept it all in my memory bank of what do and what don't do, and where I've seen people get screwed, and where I've seen people taken advantage of, and money wasted.

12:32 And I had so many hurdles I was able to avoid right off the bat. So I, I do feel I took advantage of my time there, but it was earned advantage. You know, I, I earned the right to, you know, it was knowledge I learned from being in it. The first few years in China, I think you'd go four months, five months without seeing another foreigner. I mean, it was just such a rare place to be in the '90s. Whereas now, you can't go five minutes without someone with a camera in-, trying to be an influencer or, you know, English teacher, or, you know, there's so many jobs over there that anybody can get. And your only qualification, some of them, is being a native English speaker. You know, that's all you, that's the only qualification you would need when I was living there, was to be a, an English teacher, you know, at a school.

13:16 So we had people from down South with thick Southern accents, you know, "Hey y'all, this is, this is an apple." You know, I'm like, oh my gosh. That's just what seemed really odd to me. Whereas now, they're so established. You have to have a s-, a pretty high level college degree to be an English teacher over there. And they can just be, they can weed out, they can be more selective. Whereas back then during my years there, anyone and anyone could get, get something going there. So I think that was a little bit to my advantage. Whereas today though, an entrepreneur with an idea has so many platforms that will help you get your patent, get your sample, even get you distributors lined up.

14:00 I mean, you can do a one-stop shop with some of these platforms that can help you from concept to shelf, and it's just so amazing. I love seeing what people are coming up with, but it makes the people that went through it a decade or two ago, we appreciate it, what we did a lot more, 'cause we went through the, the dirt. Michael: Right. Absolutely. I think what, you know, I, I, all this is so interesting to me. I'm an entrepreneur myself, and I've started my own business. I've done physical products. I've, you know, developed, sold, distributed worldwide, and I know the, the difficulties that go in that, i-, into doing that, right? It is, like you said, it's not like you just go from idea to product sample, you know, in an hour and, you know, everything's ready to go.

14:48 Doesn't work that way. Like, even with these new platforms, it doesn't work that way. One of the things that you said that really, to me, makes the biggest, was the biggest impression was that having the right people, the right partners, right? Like, you couldn't, it, it's very difficult to start a business on your own, especially a business where you're making physical products, right? The odds of you building a global brand where you're making the products yourself in your kitchen or wherever, right, slim to none, right? It is, it's not really feasible. You have to find the right people, right? And y-, you're fortunate enough to build these relationships, right?

15:30 It's, it has to be a two-way street. There has to be something in it for both sides to be able to do that. And you did it as a single dad, so you had, I imagine, a limited amount of time to build those relationships 'cause you had to be home, you had to be available and present for your daughter. And, but you saw this problem as a dad, right? Of the, the products that were available for, for infants and newborns with teething. You know, some products maybe had mold in them, some products just weren't built well enough, and you decided to solve it.

16:10 What made you believe you were the, the right person to build that solution? Was it the, the people you had around you? Was it just your connections and experience? What made you believe you were the one to do this instead of assuming that someone else would eventually just come up with this product? Paul: I hate to sound cheesy being a fisherman, but it was really the perfect storm, Michael. I mean, it was timing, it was that one of the first years we started this, Toys R Us went bankrupt, Buy Buy Baby went bankrupt. Two of our biggest potential customers for our industry were shutting their doors. So we're thinking, "Are we in the right, are we doing the right thing?"

16:51 But I was really fortunate to have that fishing revenue the first few years that I did. I was able to take more risk, take a few more gambles. I had four months of the year the boat was parked. You know, we didn't fish from October, you know, Halloween pretty much, till maybe February 1st. We didn't really do any fishing. It just didn't make sense with the weather, with daylight up there being so dark in the winter. So I think with that four months of the year we weren't making fishing money, but I had saved up my money the rest of the year that I was able to really focus those four months on the brand. Where other people were taking trips and holidays, my daughter was still in school, so we were, I would just stay on the island and switch in the hat.

17:36 I'd take my fishing hat off, I'd put my Smily Mia hat on, but one hat I always had to wear was the father hat. I was just really fortunate when I was in China, I was able to take my daughter to the office. Being the managing director, the, the founder of the office, I was able to take my daughter to work with me, and my team was there. I mean, they helped me raise the kid. I was able to take her to golf events. When I was fishing, if we were gone more than a week or two, I was able to take her on the boat with me. I was the engineer and the deck boss, so I had my own stateroom with two beds on it, and I would just tell her school, "Okay, we're gonna be gone a week. I'm probably gonna have her out of school." They knew the experience she had on the boat, that I would make sure her studies were covered, but she would gain so much about life on those trips.

18:23 So it was just really, I was really fortunate to be in those positions, where some other single fa-, parents or mother or father, you know, might not have been able to do that. Michael: Sure. Paul: So, really I think, like you were saying, it just was all the timing. The second year we started this, there was also a big shortage on raw materials. This is something people don't know about unless you're in the manufacturing world. So what I tell my friends is to, the equivalent of Forrest Gump when they had the storm. There was only one boat shrimping, and they thrived. You know, we were kind of the only teething company making teethers for that little gap. There was a six or seven-month gap that my supplier had raw materials stored up.

19:05 He just knew the, he knew it was coming. He, he stocked up on raw materials. So even the big-name brands were not able to sup-, fulfill orders, and they had nowhere else to go, but who could fulfill the orders? So that gave us our foot in the door. Then our quality and our concepts busted the door open, you know, but I think it was just timing. I think everything fell into place, the right time, the right place, and maybe a year later we might not have been such a success, you know? Th-, there would've been so many boats out there shrimping, you know? But, but just for that one little gap, it was the first year of COVID, it was the first year everyone was at home, forcefully, they were shopping. They were g-, you know, some were getting paid still.

19:46 They were just shopping. And especially parents who were expecting, I think they shopped a little more to deal with stress because here they're having a baby they're about to introduce into the world under those conditions. That's gotta be stressful on, on the parent to be. So I think shopping cured a lot of that 'cause we, we got a lot of orders during those times. And again, like I mentioned, our competition couldn't, couldn't have any orders. They'd had no new products too. So all the trade shows that year, we were the commodity. We were the one item everyone would just running to. So it was just, it was just timing, Michael. I think we really were blessed for that. If I were to try to do this now, there's so many teethers made out of silicone on the market now, it would be really difficult to stand out, and there's so many different wearables now, you know?

20:33 So, I mean, they look, they look similar, but they're still different enough that there's so many on the market now Michael: Yeah. Paul: that we wouldn't have stood out like we did. Michael: Right, right. So, I think it's so cool how you were able to leverage what was around you, right? Of like the, the timing and availability of materials, and you found that opportunity, and you said it was timing, right? Like that is what you really took advantage of was you found the right timing for this product. It just happened to work, right? And there's that element of luck that comes into timing of is, you know, is this the right time to, to do things based on a lot of different factors, the economy or in the case of COVID, you know, a pandemic, whatever it may be, but you can't have good timing if you don't ever put yourself out there, right?

21:26 Paul: Yeah. Michael: Like, there, time doesn't exist until you try to build something and put it out for, for the world to, to enjoy. And, you know, a lot of dads listening have ideas that have been, they've been sitting on for years, right? And, like, you know, someday I wanna get to this. This is what I would love to, to build. You know, it may be a physical product, it may be just a journey they wanna take. It may be, whatever it may be. It could be a lot of different things. And often, you know, the, the common reasons for not having done it yet is fear of the unknown. It could be a lack of time. You know, they're busy with their existing jobs, with the family life, with whatever other commitments they might have.

22:11 It could just be, you know, general uncertainty that, that keeps them from starting. But you went and started and you found your timing. What would you say to that dad that has that idea, has been sitting on it for a while, and is like, "You know, now is not the right time. Someday I'll, I hope to get to that."? Paul: Well, you know, we, we joke about this a lot 'cause I used to say, you know, "Get off your butts." You know, not your buttocks, but your B-U-T-S's. Like, "I would do this, but…" You know, "I got this," or, "But my, but…" You know, that would always be my joke. And then another thing my daughter and I always comment is I always ask if I embarrass her, 'cause when we're out of, on a trip, I always carry teethers with me. If I see a baby, I'm giving them a teether.

22:53 You know, I'm just, that's the best way to get them into the hands of a parent. It might get me a follower, it might give me a recommendation to another one. You know, you just never know. In doing so, I mean, I've gotten into the hands of some great celebrities that I didn't even know, you know? So, but I ask her all the time, I said, "Does that embarrass you?" She said, "No." She goes, "If you give, if you sit on the couch, you'll never get figured out." And we joke because now I'm literally, sometimes I'm sitting streaming from a couch, you know? So I, I, I can't say that anymore of, you know, sitting on the couch you'll never get discovered. But in theory, that's the idea is if you just are s-, always sitting on your idea, they're not gonna come to you, "Hey, do you have any ideas?" You know, you have to get that out there, you know?

23:34 And so many things I've thought of and I've thought, "Okay, that'd be a good idea. I should, I should look into making this." A year later I'll see it's on there and I'm like, "Oh, I s-, I sat on my butt," you know? "I would've made it but…" You know, but Michael: Yeah. Paul: I always, I always tell my friends who ask for advice, or anyone asks for advice, I tell them that is, "Don't sit on your idea, because someone else will come up with it." You know, and because you get a couple of nos or it doesn't work out doesn't mean it's a bad idea. It just might not be the right time. I have a couple teethers we came out with before my penguin that just never took off. But after the notoriety of our penguin, now those got traction. Now, and some of them do better on some months than the penguin even.

24:17 And so I say I knew I had a good idea, it just wasn't the right time. You know, they had to trust my brand first. And now that they trust the brand, they try my other products and see, "Okay, that's good for this." You know, each one of my items is for a different feature, 'cause maybe I was reading about something else that month for my little one, "Okay, I need to make this," you know. And, or I was reading this, "Okay, now I switch ideas to this." You know, I could… If you see the timeline of when we come out with products, you can definitely see my reading habit of what I was reading, because one item was about symmetry, about the baby having a line down the middle and both sides should, should develop evenly. And I had been pinning my daughter's arm to feed her and blocking this arm the whole time, when I should've been encouraging her to keep her hands together.

25:00 And things I thought I was failing as a dad, but just none of my friends knew either. They're like, "Okay, I didn't know that. I didn't know about the symmetry line." And so I came up with a few ideas that just lets the parent work with their baby without even knowing about it, just the na-, baby naturally works with it that way. And so again, I thought I had a, the it item. I thought I had, "Oh, it's gonna solve every parent's problem," and just, it fell, just fell flat. And then a, two years later, now it's, like I said, it does better than our penguin some months. So it's, it's neat to see an idea come to life. Not giving up on it either. I mean, there, there was times we thought let's just, let's just ax it. And we, didn't, knew it was a good idea, a new concept that just had to take some time to catch on.

25:46 So I tell people, "Don't give up. Try your ideas." You know, give a, give it a shot. It's so easy now to get a sample 3D printed or a mold, you know, without coming out with a big cost. Of the previous years, you'd have to make a mold, 10 to 12 grand. So it wasn't easy to make a sample. Whereas 3D printed stuff, you can get samples made, one-offs so easy now. And at least have your idea, give it a shot. You know, it's pretty simple now. But don't, don't sit on it. Don't wait on it Michael: Right, right. And the, the best part about putting your idea out there is you gain a new experience, right? And you learn something from that. So even if the timing isn't right, right, you put out that symmetry product and nobody is buying it now, you learn something from that, right?

26:29 And then you can go back and adjust and come back again, try again, and maybe the next time or the time after that, the timing is better, right, and it, Paul: Yeah. Yep. Michael: it does click, like you said, and like suddenly it's outselling something that your previous bestseller, even though nobody was interested in it the first time you brought it to market, right? Timing is just as much about opportunity Paul: Hmm. Michael: as it is about anything else, right? You have to continue to give yourself opportunity to have good timing. Paul: We were talking about Toys R Us, and that's, the perfect example of that is we were at a trade show. My first big show outside the country. It's in Cologne, Germany. It's the biggest show for our industry every year.

27:10 And here I am in the corner, last minute addition. They just, We, we were able to get a little booth, corner little table, really small, have a few little products on the table. No one stopped by. I was like the nerdy kid at prom not getting asked to dance, just like sitting off to the corner, you know, kicking rocks. But I just kept my personality. My neighbor booths were laughing like, "You know, everyone's on their phone, but you're standing up smiling, you're still waving at everybody." And he was like, "We hope something good happens for you," you know. And last hour or two of the show, this guy walks in, and I, everyone was boxing up their stuff. I just still stayed there 'cause I figured, one, I paid to be here, I'm gonna get every hour of the show I can.

27:51 And two, I thought it was rude to pack up before the end. It's rude to the show. So I just had all my stuff still on display. This guy walks by with this girl behind him. He looks at my table, he's like, "Yes. Yes. Maybe." And he walked away. I didn't know what was going on. The, the lady said, "We'll be in touch next week." She handed me the card. It was a guy from Toys R Us. So you just, you never know about timing. I, I was, everyone else had given up on the show and was packing up, but I just still stood my ground, stuck to my, my, what I was stood there for, and I got my product in the Toys R Us out of the deal. That next catalog, half the page of their catalog was all my product.

28:33 And that opened so many doors here in America for me. Even though it was in Europe's Toys R Us, 'cause ours closed, but I was able to put that in my marketing, and it opened so many other doors here that I couldn't get open before. Just had that level of trust, and, and that's so valuable in this industry. Michael: That's amazing. So, it's a great point of like you flew, know, a-, across the ocean to, to this trade show, and you're constantly looking for new opportunities to grow your business. Entrepreneurship tends to have a way of expanding itself to fill every available hour that you have, right?

29:15 Like you can always be thinking about your business. As a single father, how did you decide when work had taken enough from your day and it was time to really be present at home? Paul: I think it was, I, I noticed that my daughter was just starting to grow up. You know, she was starting to be a teenager, and she was 14 and the neighbor's kid was 15, almost 16, and they asked if she could babysit for them. And I thought, "Okay, wait a minute, my daughter's growing up way too fast." I was like, she just really was starting to become a young woman before I even was ready for her to not be a toddler anymore. You know, she was already starting to show responsibility of me being out at sea so many ti-, days of the year.

30:02 And when I was in, in land, I was trying to be a dad, but some of the hours I was on land was 3:00 in the morning, we're leaving, cutting ties at 7:00 to go leave again, you know? So what valuable time can I have 3:00 to 7:00 in the morning, you know, with, with your kid? She's sleeping or getting ready for school. So I realized I was gonna grow too far apart, you know, and I needed to do something after fishing because so many of my fishing friends and old captains could barely walk down the dock. They're limping, they have some-, something got hurt over the years. And I just realized, okay, I made enough money doing that, that I needed to quit fishing. And my daughter's still had another year of high school, so I said, "Okay, I'll just back off fishing. I'll do some fill-in trips if boats need it," which I was, had a good reputation.

30:52 I could fill in pretty easy, just jump into a new boat and just fit in to, with the crew. So I already knew I could do that for a year and to cover any bills. But Smily Mia was starting to do well. That year we did really well in s-, in sales, and I knew, okay, it wasn't, might not last forever though, so I couldn't rely on the Smily Mia for revenue yet. So I, I was just ready to take that year off, and then my daughter reached out to me. She said, "Hey, Dad." She goes, "I've been working on something I didn't want to tell you." She said, "But I've got enough credits, I'm gonna finish school a year early." And I thought, okay, that's just another example of how things are just meant to be, 'cause I really didn't want to be there another year.

31:33 I had so many things I wanted to start doing with the brand in the lower 48. But I didn't want to move her in the middle of school. I just promised myself I'd never do that to my kid. So that, that was just another sign of fate. That was meant to be. I decided to move it down to my home state of Oregon. That's where I'm out of now. I'm out of Eugene, Oregon. I wanted to go to my hometown of Coos Bay on the coast, but that's as remote as Alaska as far as br-, as shipping and everything, and getting around. So I didn't want to put myself in that position again. So, we, we did set up in Eugene, and that's where my daughter's going to school here. So it gave me my daughter for a roommate a couple more years, but it gave me the freedom to be cut free efficient fully and focus on Smily Mia 100%.

32:18 And in doing so, I've gotten to so many more countries. I've been able to expand so much more. I've gotten a lot of retail here in the s-, in the States, and started streaming. I started doing a few podcasts now. So just taking advantage of my popular product, 'cause we're one of the most talked about teethers in the industry for the last year. Just because there was no wearable before us, the, where the baby just literally puts their hand in and wears it. So yeah, they just put their hand in there, they grab the bar, so it helps their grasp reflex. And instead of the pacifier having one thing that leaves this plastic ring around their mouth that als-, often irritates the mouth, they have this soft silicone that they really can make a s-, a proper seal on, and it helps forming the palate firming up, which aligns with the vocal cords, everything.

33:11 So, just saw so many things the first couple of months that weren't addressed with the standard pacifier. But what I hadn't counted on is so many moms saying that we give the breast a rest. Obviously we didn't breastfeed as fathers, we don't know. Michael: Right. Paul: But I do remember the first few months that she was a walking pacifier, that she would, my daughter's latched onto the mom. But we do, we, we made the contour of this to be the same as a breast, just so it's easier to be accepted. Instead of the one, they have the two options. And I think all that combined made literally the perfect device for a newborn. And that's why we, we got our notoriety, got our popularity from that.

33:52 And we were, I was able to stop fishing, devote to being more of a father these last couple years. I've taken my daughter on some trips now. Like, we went to visit the factory, and I did a big trade show in Shanghai. So I took her with me for a few weeks, and she stayed out, hung out with her mom over there. Her mom's still in mainland China. So, and then also for this new company that we started, Dommy, my daughter's part owner of that. So, she's actually coming on board now. She's gonna be finishing school. She's gonna come into the business. She's been around it long enough, she understands it enough already, and she's filled enough orders over the years out of the house that she's, she's able to step right in and, and understand a lot of it right off the bat.

34:36 Michael: That's amazing. So, I wanted to ask you about meaningful work because we, I talk a lot about that on the show, like finding work that means something to you, and I feel like perhaps only have you found meaningful work, but the fact that you're bringing your daughter into your business brings on a whole new level of meaningfulness into what you're trying to build. How has your definition of meaningful work changed over the years, particularly once you became a dad and now as your daughter, you know, finishes up her, her schooling and become, you know, joins the workforce and becomes, you know, part of your business?

35:19 Paul: I think for the most part, I, I felt a little sheltered the first five, six years. I didn't realize how big we were getting, 'cause I was still out at sea couple hundred days of the year. I, and when I wasn't, I was still trying to be a father, you know? So I, I, it was really like a hobby, to be honest, the first four or five years. But once, I, really the changing moment for me, I could tell you the exact day. We were coming in from a fishing trip, and when we're out at sea, we have cell signal in waves. Like, so 10 miles out it might show we have a couple messages, but we can't open them till nine miles out. So it's kinda like little teasers or previews of what we have coming, you know, but one day I was in the engine room, I have these headphones that have Bluetooth, so I was listening to music, you know, checking on everything, and I just heard an alert come on.

36:10 Said, "That's weird." I was, we got signal early. I thought it was, you know, and then, then another alert. It's like, "Oh, that's…" Then I figure, okay, I better check it out. Then it was like a carnival ride. Doop-doop-doop-doop-doop-doop. I had all these alerts started coming in. I thought, "Crap." You know, first as a fisherman, you think something might've happened to my kid. You know, Michael: Yeah. Paul: This, this is not good." You know, I'm, I'm freaking out. I'm trying to, I'm up in the wheelhouse in the rigging trying to get signal, trying to have the messages come through so I can open them. What it turned out was some guy was doing videos for the top seller of every state for Amazon. And for Alaska, I was a top seller for Amazon for the state of Alaska, and he just had done a video about me and it was just people sending me links to it, congratulating me and, but I didn't know it w-, it was positive.

36:56 I was just… So that kind of reinforced what you asked earlier about when did you know you need to be more of a father. That was kind of the moment, 'cause I was so freaked out something had happened to my kid. I didn't even think it was something positive. I just saw so many alerts come in, I thought something happened to my kid, and I knew I needed to hang up my fishing gear. You know, hang up my rain gear and, and stay on land a little more often. And that combined with my daughter graduating early was just fate. It was meant to be. So we literally put a bunch of stuff in storage that my boat brought down to save on shipping fees. We got a little U-Haul trailer behind my, my SUV, and we just drove down through Canada with our dogs and came home.

37:38 But that was, that was a defining moment. That was, gave me total freedom away from fishing. When you're a fisherman, you're not just at sea fishing, but you're responsible for shopping for food, for supplies. You're responsible for anything that broke at sea, getting it fixed or getting it sent out to get fixed, getting the new parts in. So people don't see that on the, on the Deadliest Catch. They don't see all the behind the scenes stuff, that you're literally pretty much married to a boat. So that being said, I knew I needed to get a divorce. You know, I needed to separate from that boat. And if I was still on that island, they would've still called me. "Okay, Paul, how do you do this? Or how do you do that?" So I think moving off the island and moving down to another, to the lower 48 just cut my ties from there 100%.

38:25 I still got a few phone calls. I had to FaceTime them through a few things, and they asked me for a few recipes for the captain, you know, to make him happy, but, but in general, I was free, you know, and I was able to be a father 100% this last year and a half, and to really grow the brand a lot more than we had, had ever expected. Michael: That's awesome. I love that. It, it's encouraging that, you know, we can often feel stuck in the work that we do because we need to pay the bills, right? And it doesn't really feel necessarily meaningful to us, the work that we're doing, but there are, are ways to move beyond that, right?

39:06 Like, sometimes, you just gotta put yourself out there. Maybe you're doing something on the side and, like, you essentially, you did with Smily Mia and build it up to the point where it can be self-sustaining and you can, you know, exit your day-to-day work, your fisherman's job, or whatever work you might be doing to then pursue the thing that really does mean something for you. But that's not always easy, right? It is, you know, like you said, like, sometimes it's a matter of timing, right? Sometimes it's y-, you gotta catch that lucky break, but you gotta put yourself out there at the same time. If a dad listening right now f-, kinda feels stuck in the work that they're doing, like they know they have to keep doing this work 'cause they need to pay the bills, they need to keep a roof over their heads, they need to feed their family, but it's doesn't really feel meaningful to them, where would you encourage that dad to begin?

39:58 Not necessarily with a, a career change, but like what's just the n-, first step they should take? Paul: I think one thing, and this is one thing all fathers have in common regardless of our situation, past, present, or where we're headed, is we all do it for our kid. You know? I think that, that one common denominator we all have is that everything we do is for that mini version of us. And I, I, I know myself, I can, I can see my friends that, I, had kids before me, and they get it, and I hadn't gotten it yet. Then I see the friends that had kids around the same time as me, that we get it together. And then I see the friends that still don't have kids that don't get it yet. You know, that, so I, I've, it's been fun for me to progress the way I had, where some of my friends had kids right out of school.

40:44 You know, literally just started a family, and their kids are out of college now and starting their own families now, and they're posting, "Now we're grandparents. We're buying your products for our grandkids." You know, and I'm like, "Whoa." I tell my daughter, "Hey, take your time, kid. You know, you don't have to make me a grandfather anytime soon." But I'm just seeing, it's fun to see all the stages progress, but it's also fun to have a product now that my f-, my classmates are getting it for their grandkids, and people I've worked with over the years that are getting it for their kids or their grandkids. You know, it's just, it's been fun that I can make something that's accepted across the board like I have. And whether you're, whatever denomination, whatever nationality, whatever religion, whatever state you're from, whatever college team you like, any kid's gonna teethe.

41:32 And every person wants that to be an enjoyable experience or a less painful experience. So that's why I like making a product like that. It's, there's not a lot of controversy with my product. You know, who's gonna say, "I don't want my kid to be soothed. I don't want a pleasant experience. I don't want my wife to not to be a walking pacifier." You know? I just fix so many problems that I think I've just really been blessed. Michael: That's amazing. I love that. Alright, from the super serious and emotional to the not so serious, I want to jump into the speed round. Five quick questions for you, starting with what's the first kid show theme song that comes to mind? Paul: Oh, it's a tie between Gummi Bears and ThunderCats. Yes. Michael: Oh, wow.

42:12 Wow. That is two very different ends of the spectrum. Paul: That's story of my life. Story of my life. Michael: Love that. That's awesome. What was your very first job? Paul: First job, I was a personal assistant for a friend of the family. That's what sent me to China. Michael: Oh wow. Paul: He, when I came on board with him, I was kind of approached when I was in school, but I was studying for music, and he offered me a job. He's like, "This is what you're gonna do with music as a career. This is what I can take you." And that's who took me to China. That's what introduced me to manufacturing. We're still in touch today. He still, he came and stayed at my house for a few weeks last year. So definitely changed my life, but that was my first job.

42:54 I was just really blessed to have that kind of job that took me all over the world. Michael: That's awesome. Love that. Would you rather spend 24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler? Paul: Wow. Definitely T-Rex-sized toddler. The things I could come up with, the, the creations I could make. Oh, yeah, I think, I think a T-Rex-sized toddler. Michael: Yeah. That'd be a very big teething toy you'd have to build. Paul: Oh, I'm thinking the possibilities now. They, oh, I, oh, I got it. I'm gonna patent it. I'll cut you in on 10%, Michael. You got it. Michael: All right. I'll hold you to that. That sounds great. What's your go-to karaoke song or the one you would pick if you had to? Paul: Okay. I have PTSD from this song because living in China, we, we went to karaoke almost every night.

43:37 Literally for work, we'd take s-, another customer or client out. When I was younger, I looked kinda like Leonardo DiCaprio. This is a, this is Leonardo, and this is how I looked at that time. So, and I was spending a lot of time in Thailand, so everybody called me Jack from Titanic. Like, "Hey, that's Jack. Sing Jack." So I sang that darn Celine Dion song from Titanic literally over 1,000 times in my life. I just- 'cause that was the one song. Some nights they'd have me sing it three or four times a night. So that wasn't my go-to, but that was their go-to for me to sing, you know, all the time. Michael: You could've given me… Paul: i, I could pull off a good New York, New York. I, I have a good bass voice for it, and it sounded good, and I could impress the crowd with that song.

44:23 So I guess from Celine Dion to Frank Sinatra, so, so I guess another end of the spectrum's answer. Michael: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you could've given me 100 guesses, I don't think I would've guessed Celine Dion in the, you know, 100 times. Paul: I'll hear it at the store today, I'll, I'll twitch. Michael: So, and finally, what's the weirdest thing you've ever carried around in your bag, briefcase, or pockets? Paul: Weirdest. Good lord. Weirdest would have to be maybe, okay, there was a, some kind of rodent fetus kind of thing that was petrified in my bag we didn't know about.

45:06 We don't know how it got in there, but it got me held up in customs thinking I was trying to smuggle some kind of animal product that showed up in their scanner. I said, "I, I don't even know what that is." but it held us up through customs, and we still don't know what the animal critter was. It was some kind of little small version of maybe like a bat or something that was dehydrated and petrified kind of. And we're guessing maybe it fell off somewhere in my bag at the hotel or something, off a shelf or something, is what we kinda guessed, but they thought I was trying to smuggle some kind of animal product. That'd probably be the weirdest. Maybe the most dangerous was, before in China, everything was cash only.

45:47 And me being a young person, my boss would send me to China to get cash from the Hong Kong banks. When you're supposed to declare anything over 10,000 US when you cross the border, he would tell me, "Okay, Paul, tomorrow don't wear a suit. Wear blue jeans and T-shirt, you know, just casual clothes." And I was, "Okay." I, I figured I'd be going on my visa run, which is standard every 30 days we had to go to Hong Kong. But he would have me bring $75,000 to $100,000 cash over the border on a regular basis, and I didn't know to declare it. I was just a young kid from, from Oregon. You know, I just, I didn't know to declare that kind of thing. But looking back, that's probably why he was having me do it.

46:28 You know, no one would suspect I would be carrying that kind of cash through the border. But so tha-, those are the two probably strangest and most, most dangerous I think that I had ever carried across borders Michael: I gotta say, of all the ti-, I've asked this question dozens of times now. It's gotta be the wildest two answers. And I've got some strange answers, right? I've got some really interesting ones, you know, over the, over all the time I've been doing this. Paul: I'll take it. I'll take it. Michael: Yeah. You've… Paul: My family has a saying, "You gotta be Paul." And that's just why so many weird things have happened in my life that whenever I come home from a trip, okay, what's our, you gotta be Paul's story this time, you know?

47:10 And I, I used to be shy about it. Now I just like, I love to share it now. You know, I, I think that is kind of unique, and it is fun to share it. Michael: Absolutely. That's amazing. Paul, before we wrap up, I want to make sure people know where they can find you and learn more a-, about everything you're building. Where can people go to learn more about you and Smily Mia? Paul: I think smilymia.com. And if you see the smily doesn't have an E, that's just how we did it for marketing and for logo to look a little cleaner. It worked out really well to our benefit. But yeah, just smilymia.com. I also am on TikTok. I'm pretty active on TikTok. Just try to get our brand out there more and more. That's just been a fun platform for me to get in touch with parents direct.

47:51 So I think those two are the best ways. Amazon has some videos loaded of me in the factory doing factory tours and stuff too. So I think those three platforms, you can get a pretty good understanding of my company and our, what we stand for, where we come from. Michael: Awesome. We'll put all that in the show notes for sure. Paul, I really enjoyed this conversation. I, your passion is infectious, and I appreciate your willingness to share not only what you built, but also the experiences and challenges that shaped you along the way, right? You have a very unique, very interesting story. You, you've experienced a lot, but you, you put yourself out there, right? And you were able to take advantage of what was put in front of you, of your experiences and your connections and everything else, but at the end of the day, you did it in a way that allowed you to be that present father, right?

48:46 And you speak about your life and your experiences in a way that just, yes, it's passionate, but I find it inspiring, too. And so I appreciate you coming on here, sharing your story, taking the time to chat with me today. And finally, before you go, if you're a dad listening to this and you find yourself in between navigating a season that feels different, head to gaptogig.com, subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter. Comes out every Friday, and it's a quieter space to reflect on work, life, and what really matters right now. And if this conversation resonated, please consider sending it to another dad who might need to hear it. Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs. Thanks for showing up and listening to Gap to Gig.