Jason Lange on Why Working Dads Need Stronger Connections

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Jason: So much more is expected of
us in terms of our relationships, in

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terms of our presence in our family.

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It's a rude awakening for a lot, a
lot, a lot of guys who then are at

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a place in their life where they're
like, "Wow, I might be about to lose

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this thing I've worked so hard for,
this, this kind of ideal family.

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But my wife's, she's, she's
like, 'Something's gotta change.

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This, this isn't working for me.'"
And then he's like, "Well, I don't

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know what I'm supposed to do.

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I thought I was doing it."

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today on Gap to Gig, I'm

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thrilled to welcome Jason Lange.

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He's a men's embodiment coach, group
facilitator, and evolutionary guide

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who helps men find deep clarity
in their purpose, relationships,

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and how they show up in the world.

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After struggling with loneliness
and disconnection in his own life,

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Jason spent the last two decades
doing the work to change that.

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Today he's on a mission to help men
move beyond the lone wolf mindset

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into something healthier, more
connected, and more sustainable,

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especially through men's groups.

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Jason, I'm excited to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm really glad you're here.

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Jason: Yeah, so pumped to be here.

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Thanks for having me

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Michael: Appreciate that.

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So a lot of dads listening to this
are doing their best to juggle

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meaningful work and being present at
home, and still something feels off.

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Like they're checking the boxes,
but not quite where they wanna be.

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So when you look at dads today,
what feels most out of alignment

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between the work they're doing
and the life they actually want?

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Jason: Yeah.

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So I'm gonna speak to the types of
dads I primarily work with, which

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are dads who are, you know, they're
showing up, they're involved, right?

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So, you know, there's a whole range of
how fathers can be involved in family

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and kids' life, but, you know, I think
you and I are probably most interested

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in it like to be an engaged ja-, dad
when you're juggling the realities

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of getting older, career, intimacy,
relationship, kids, all those things.

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And I'm a father of two, and I'm
right in the thick of it here with,

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with so many others, and the number
one thing I see for so many guys

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is they carry a lot of burden.

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It's like, "Oh my God, the weight
of the world is on my shoulders.

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I want to be doing everything.

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I wanna have a kick-ass career.

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I wanna be really present, present
in my kids' lives and showing up to

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their games or whatever that might be.

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I wanna have a passionate, alive,
intimate partnership." And on the road

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to trying to do that, what I see, and I
get it 'cause there's only so much time

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in the day, what most dads do is they
stop doing the very things that made

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them feel the most alive, which often
helped them get into the very life they

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thought they wanted to be leading, right?

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So particularly as guys enter their
30s and 40s, more and more these

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days what I see is guys get married,
they have kids, they start to let

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go of a lot of their relationships,
particularly with other men, and

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they start to prioritize the family.

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And it's not that that's the wrong
choice, but it has a significant cost

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because then as men lose friendships,
take on more responsibility in the

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world, we're also, as fathers, immersed
in a culture that teaches us, "Well,

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to be a man means don't be weak.

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Keep showing up.

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Push harder.

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You got this." Right? "Pick
yourself up by the bootstraps.

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And we lose the very connection with
other men that can help us the most

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in these stressful, burdened times.

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And then a lot of men I work with, because
they don't have those connections so

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alive anymore, one of the only places
they have to bring any vulnerability, any

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overwhelm, is their intimate relationship.

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And it's not that we don't want to do
that, but when that's the only place

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we can bring that, it puts so much
stress on the relationship because

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suddenly, you know, this day more than
probably any other time in history, our

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intimate partnership, we expect it to
do the heavy load of so many things.

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Michael: Right.

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Jason: It's my lover, it's my
co-parent, my best friend, sometimes

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my co-life manager, my therapist.

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What that does is it starts to
drain the energy from the actual

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intimacy and the eroticism.

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So, so many guys I work with, they're
like, "I'm working all the time.

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I'm so exhausted.

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My wife wants more of me, but
I have no energy to give her.

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I don't even know how to give it to her.

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Sometimes I do bring my fears about
my job or whatever, and then she gets

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freaked out, so I don't know what to
do." And so it's a particular life

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phase then dovetails with a very
real thing, which is middle age.

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Which is this realization, "Wow, there's
potentially less runway in front of

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me than there is behind me." And what
does it mean to know I only have so

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many more hours left on this planet?

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I thought Y, and Z would
make me free and happy.

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A lot of guys I work with, very
successful, have the family,

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they're in it, and they're like,
"And I still kind of feel dead.

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Like, I, I feel exhausted.

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I feel not very alive.

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I, I worked so hard to get
to the top of this ladder.

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I'm up there now, and I'm like, oh
my God, do I even wanna be here?

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I work all the time.

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This is like my whole life." so
that all kind of swirls together

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to what is very challenging for,
for fathers and frankly for men.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Yeah, so many great points there.

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There's a lot I wanna unpack here.

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There's a lot of questions about alignment
of like what is important, what is

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actually important, right, in the moment.

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But there's also these, there's the
relationship element of it, right?

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Like, if you're fortunate enough to have
a partner, have a spouse, right, like that

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burden, it's easy to shift your burdens
into that relationship, right, 'cause

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that's kind of the first place you turn.

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And to some degree, it's healthy to
share your, your burdens with your

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partner, but there are limits into how
much you can do that, right, 'cause

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your partner also will have burdens that
they are going to want to, to leverage.

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And if your relationship is only based on
burdens, it's going to be very difficult

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to foster that relationship any further
than it, than it's already gone, right?

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And then you have the relationships
with your children and maybe your

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extended family and your friends.

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And there's this other element of it which
you started off with, which is essentially

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this element of loneliness, right?

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Of,

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: It becomes more difficult as
you grow older to make the room for the

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friendships that, that you need to, to
find those people, the people of, you

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know, quote-unquote, "your tribe," right,
of like people that are, have similar

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interests or similar experiences to you
that you can bounce ideas off of, that

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you can learn from, that you can help
teach, that you can build something

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that is meaningful for you in terms
of in that relationship space outside

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of your core nucleus at home, right?

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There's all these different elements that
are always changing, always evolving.

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And then, you know, like you said,
there's, as we reach, as we get

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closer and closer to middle age
and get past that, that point, we

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are running out of runway, right?

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There's only so many hours, so
many days left, you know, that

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we don't know when the end is.

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And as far as we know, there's one life
to live, and how do we make the most

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of that time, not just for ourselves,
but for those around us, right?

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'Cause I think for most of us
as dads, we're not trying to

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build a life just for ourself.

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We're trying to build a life for those
that mean something to us, right?

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So it's our family,
it's our friends, right?

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So what used to work doesn't
necessarily continue to work as you

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grow older and as your family evolves
and as your, your kids grow up.

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How do you help men recognize when
they're sort of in that in-between

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season of like things that were working
before are starting not to work, right?

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But, you know, maybe something's
gotta change, but it's hard to tell

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that you do, you need to make some
change, whether it's on yourself

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or in your surrounding environment.

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So like, I'm curious, like how do you
help men recognize that in-between season?

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Jason: Yeah, I think the place I
see actually men sometimes recognize

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it, which is what makes them show
up to me, is in their bodies.

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So, I, I like to kind of joke, it's
like we come into this world with a

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preloaded debit card that's got a certain
amount of chi, energy, vitality in it.

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You know, we're in our teenage
years, our 20s, and even into our

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30s, we're just charging that thing.

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"Okay, yeah, I'm out late partying.

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I'm not getting a lot of sleep.

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I'm working really hard.

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I'm pushing my body really hard."
It's around 40, and particularly

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45, 46, that the bills start to come
due, where the body's like, "Oh,

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actually, you can't do that anymore.

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Like y-, y-, you hurt yourself, it
takes three months to recover now,

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not two weeks." And what happens I
see for a lot of men is their bodies

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start to catch up with them in the
ways they've been neglecting their

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well-being, whether it's illness,
fatigue, autoimmune disorders, or just

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achy tension, like a tight, tense body
where they don't actually feel relaxed.

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Or they start to see, "Well, I'm
actually losing physical acuity

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that I never did before," right?

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"I can feel like I, I, I can't hit
it like I used to." That starts

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to wake men up to something.

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As does this kind of more emotional
baggage as well that many men I work

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with, because we're raised in a culture
that doesn't teach us men how to know

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what we're feeling, let alone how
to talk about it, that takes energy.

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So, you know, the, the analogy I
sometimes use is it's like, it's like

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imagining holding a beach ball underwater.

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There's all this feeling in us, and
we hold it underwater, and it's like,

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"Okay, this is cool." But you do
that for 20, 30 years, you forget how

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much energy it takes to keep it down,

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Michael: Right.

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Jason: Right, and that becomes
very apparent at this age where,

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like I said, sometimes it's
fatigue, sometimes it's depression.

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I've had guys that were like CEO
level just hitting it, and one

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day they literally woke up and
they couldn't get out of bed.

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Their body was like, "No, you are done.

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You're gonna kill yourself.

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Essentially, you're gonna wear
yourself out." So men start to,

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usually that come to me, either feel
something in their body where they

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just feel flat like, "Is this it?

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I, I, I thought getting
the promotion would do it.

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Oh wait, I thought the
new house would do it.

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I thought that X, Y, or Z." And
they're like, "No, it didn't do it.

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I kind of come right back to my set
point." And then the other really

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big one I see for middle-aged
fathers in particular is their

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relationship, is whether they're
there or not, they start to see on

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the horizon that empty nest phase.

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And whoa, for, you know, 5, 10, 15 years,
our relationship with me and my partner

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has fallen to the back burner, right?

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The kids came first.

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Managing the house came first.

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We don't even know what to talk
about if we have 20 minutes together

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that's not work or the kids or
the usual kind of stressful stuff.

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And so that one, sometimes
they're realizing the best case

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scenario, they see it coming.

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Worst case scenario, they're often
blindsided by a partner who's like, "I

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don't love you anymore. We, we haven't
had a relationship between us for a long

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time. I don't even know who you are,
and I don't feel, feel seen or cherished

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by you." And that can be so painful
for so many of us guys 'cause we're

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raised in the whole provider culture.

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Well, our job as a man is to provide
for the family, and if we're doing that,

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we're a good, good man or good father.

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Michael: Right.

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Jason: And the fact that that contract
isn't really enough anymore, we're

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ex-, so much more is expected of us
in terms of our relationships, in

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terms of our presence in our family.

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It's a rude awakening for a lot, a
lot, a lot of guys who then are at

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a place in their life where they're
like, "Wow, I might be about to lose

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this thing I've worked so hard for,
this, this kind of ideal family.

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But my wife's, she's, she's
like, 'Something's gotta change.

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This, this isn't working for me.'"
And then he's like, "Well, I don't

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know what I'm supposed to do.

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I thought I was doing it."

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Michael: Right.

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Jason: And that's often the
crisis men will come to me in.

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Michael: Right, so that, to me, it
sounds like there's this crisis of

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purpose of like you, you think you
have this potentially this purpose

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of being the provider, right?

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And so I think for a lot of us,
the, what we learn at a young age is

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providing is financial, it's physical,
but what we for-, what we don't

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realize, I think, oftentimes, and
some people realize this earlier than

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others, of like your purpose is, goes
beyond providing something physical.

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It's be-, beyond providing
a paycheck, right?

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It is, you know, the older I get,
the more I realize my purpose is

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built around relationships, right?

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Around the people I
care about most, right?

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It's my family, it's my friends.

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Like, those are the people that I,
the success, you know, quote-unquote

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"success" for me looks like surrounding
myself with people I care about th-, when

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they're making them happy and healthy and
successful and seeing them, you know, my

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impact on the world is going to be based
on how I impact those around me, right?

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And hopefully that they will then
spread their impact even further.

00:14:48.228 --> 00:14:53.388
So the hope is that, yeah, I
need to earn a living, right?

00:14:53.388 --> 00:14:56.738
I need to provide for my
family, but not at the expense

00:14:56.788 --> 00:14:59.258
of those relationships, right?

00:14:59.298 --> 00:15:03.828
There, there has to be boundaries
in both directions, right?

00:15:03.828 --> 00:15:08.858
You can't just spend all your time
focused on your spouse and then, you

00:15:08.858 --> 00:15:12.288
know, put off work and suddenly you
have, you know, you can't afford the

00:15:12.288 --> 00:15:14.618
roof over your head or you can't feed
your family and things like that.

00:15:14.618 --> 00:15:18.968
Like there are, you do need to be
able to do both, but figuring out

00:15:18.968 --> 00:15:21.368
what that purpose really is for you.

00:15:21.368 --> 00:15:22.628
And for everybody that's different, right?

00:15:22.628 --> 00:15:22.878
Like,

00:15:24.092 --> 00:15:24.652
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:15:25.358 --> 00:15:29.238
Michael: for me, I think I've finally
identified like what my purpose is, at

00:15:29.238 --> 00:15:33.678
least for the moment of like, it is my
kids, it's my spouse, it's my extended

00:15:33.678 --> 00:15:35.428
family, and it's my close friends.

00:15:35.428 --> 00:15:38.288
Like those are the people that I'm
trying to spend, put my energy towards.

00:15:38.288 --> 00:15:42.338
Like when I decide what I'm going to
do on a daily basis, it's how does

00:15:42.338 --> 00:15:45.708
that positively impact them because
they positively impact me, right?

00:15:45.918 --> 00:15:47.798
For somebody else, it might be
a little bit different, right?

00:15:48.398 --> 00:15:53.158
And they might say, "Well, to me it's
like I want to do, I want to make sure

00:15:53.158 --> 00:15:54.608
the work I'm doing is meaningful."

00:15:54.628 --> 00:15:56.128
Doesn't mean I need to
make the most money.

00:15:56.218 --> 00:15:59.178
It means I need to do something that
feels like I'm having an impact, right?

00:15:59.178 --> 00:16:02.108
And so everybody, it's
different for everybody.

00:16:02.118 --> 00:16:05.788
Some people want to volunteer more, some
people want to travel the world more.

00:16:05.788 --> 00:16:11.578
Like, whatever that purpose is,
at the end of the day, I think

00:16:12.488 --> 00:16:17.348
your purpose is almost always tied
back to the relationships, right?

00:16:17.348 --> 00:16:20.908
It's not just the outcomes,
but it's the relationsh-,

00:16:21.007 --> 00:16:23.788
relationships that you're building.

00:16:24.348 --> 00:16:29.568
And, you know, I think it's taken me
a long time to get to that place, and

00:16:29.568 --> 00:16:33.338
I think I'm not the only dad that's
been there where it's like I just kind

00:16:33.338 --> 00:16:35.638
of need to figure this out on my own.

00:16:35.648 --> 00:16:40.268
Nobody's going to be able to tell me
what to do or kind of where I, like,

00:16:40.298 --> 00:16:43.488
when I feel s-, I'm struggling, I don't
just go and tell everybody, right?

00:16:43.598 --> 00:16:47.098
I'm an introvert by nature and so
like I don't just go out and when

00:16:47.098 --> 00:16:49.778
I'm struggling with something just
blurt it out to anybody and everybody.

00:16:50.178 --> 00:16:52.128
I try to like, I want to fix it myself.

00:16:52.128 --> 00:16:54.028
Like that is just how I've been built.

00:16:54.028 --> 00:16:57.238
And I think, you know, for a lot of dads
that's the easy way out of just being

00:16:57.248 --> 00:16:58.898
like, "I'll figure this out myself."

00:16:59.108 --> 00:17:03.648
But then you realize or I'm
starting to realize that you can't

00:17:03.648 --> 00:17:04.758
always do everything yourself.

00:17:04.878 --> 00:17:08.038
You do need help, and that's
where these relationships come in.

00:17:08.698 --> 00:17:13.468
Why do you think that instinct is so
strong for, particularly for men, for,

00:17:13.498 --> 00:17:16.908
for dads of like, "Oh, I can just do
this all on my own. I'll figure it out."

00:17:17.458 --> 00:17:18.408
And then all of a sudden,

00:17:18.550 --> 00:17:18.810
Jason: Yeah.

00:17:18.938 --> 00:17:19.428
Michael: no I can't.

00:17:21.202 --> 00:17:25.902
Jason: The, I mean, it's, it's part of the
culture of masculinity we're raised in.

00:17:26.282 --> 00:17:29.302
You know, we, the, in, in the
world, we call it the man box,

00:17:29.642 --> 00:17:34.622
this idea that all cultures, some,
some, you know, vary a little bit.

00:17:34.622 --> 00:17:37.752
But overall, there's kind of this idea
that, well, to be a man means you have to

00:17:37.772 --> 00:17:41.602
be X, Y, and Z. There's these boxes you
have to check off, and if you don't check

00:17:41.602 --> 00:17:43.132
those off, you're not considered a man.

00:17:43.602 --> 00:17:48.222
And one of the primary ones is to be
a man means to be invulnerable, right?

00:17:48.462 --> 00:17:51.692
It, it means you, you, you never show
weakness, you never ask for help,

00:17:52.082 --> 00:17:57.992
and that's often reinforced by, you
know, our culture that teaches men

00:17:58.002 --> 00:18:02.802
other men are competition, Like,
there, it's kinda woven in to, to some

00:18:02.802 --> 00:18:05.452
of what we experience in some ways.

00:18:05.852 --> 00:18:12.272
And mean, what you're speaking to also
ties into a much deeper issue that, right,

00:18:12.402 --> 00:18:18.162
like what I heard you beautifully say is
w-, what I say is part of providership

00:18:18.162 --> 00:18:22.552
has evolved, and what it's expanded to
is part of providing for your family

00:18:22.552 --> 00:18:25.812
is being actually present for them.

00:18:26.502 --> 00:18:34.012
So present with your, your wife or
spouse, present with your kids, which

00:18:34.012 --> 00:18:37.752
you can't do if you're stuck up in your
head, if you're so exhausted at the end

00:18:37.752 --> 00:18:41.312
of the day you just fall asleep watching
TV, or if you're working all the time.

00:18:41.522 --> 00:18:45.122
So it's actually about
presence is the thing.

00:18:45.642 --> 00:18:49.802
Particularly fathers can bring more than
anything else, just, "I'm here with you."

00:18:49.936 --> 00:18:49.986
Michael: Right.

00:18:50.186 --> 00:18:52.276
And it's beyond just
physical presence, right?

00:18:52.296 --> 00:18:53.166
Like, it is

00:18:53.442 --> 00:18:54.146
Jason: Yeah, it's emotional presence.

00:18:54.196 --> 00:18:54.776
Michael: Emotional, mental.

00:18:54.792 --> 00:18:56.752
Jason: It's focus, it's
attention, it's attunement.

00:18:57.186 --> 00:18:57.356
Michael: Yeah.

00:18:58.712 --> 00:19:03.962
Jason: And what makes that challenging for
guys is part of what you're speaking to,

00:19:03.992 --> 00:19:05.742
and the research does show this, right?

00:19:05.742 --> 00:19:10.672
There's plenty of work that's been done
on the terminally ill and people at the

00:19:10.672 --> 00:19:13.422
end of their life where they interview
them like, "Hey, what are the five

00:19:13.432 --> 00:19:16.982
things, you know, if you're about to
die here you wish da-da-da-da?" It's

00:19:17.022 --> 00:19:18.812
never, "I wish I had made more money.

00:19:18.812 --> 00:19:24.282
I wish I had worked more." It's always,
"I wish I had spent more time with the

00:19:24.282 --> 00:19:29.622
people I love and who loved me." It
becomes down to those relationships.

00:19:30.082 --> 00:19:33.522
And the challenge I think a lot
of guys start to hit i-, in middle

00:19:33.522 --> 00:19:38.802
age, and particularly fathers,
is we don't have the training for

00:19:38.802 --> 00:19:43.402
how to be in relationship, right?

00:19:43.452 --> 00:19:48.082
Like how to actually be in relationship,
which is one of the reasons it's so

00:19:48.082 --> 00:19:50.692
hard for us to ask for help, right?

00:19:50.692 --> 00:19:51.822
We're not used to it.

00:19:51.842 --> 00:19:56.132
We hi-, we're used to, "Okay, I gotta hold
it all inside, never show any weakness,

00:19:56.152 --> 00:20:01.102
be tough, be the solid foundation,"
and it's a losing game, right?

00:20:01.112 --> 00:20:03.052
And it, it really impacts men.

00:20:03.052 --> 00:20:06.292
Suicide rate's three and a half
to four times higher for men.

00:20:07.162 --> 00:20:11.442
You know, the stat a lot of people
talk about loneliness, so that

00:20:11.442 --> 00:20:17.162
feeling of I don't feel known or seen
in my life, which it's important.

00:20:17.982 --> 00:20:22.278
Doesn't mean you don't have connection
around you, friends, family, et cetera.

00:20:22.968 --> 00:20:24.828
It's about the type of connection.

00:20:25.218 --> 00:20:29.098
But that kind of loneliness,
it's as destructive as smoking

00:20:29.188 --> 00:20:30.248
a pack of cigarettes a day.

00:20:30.738 --> 00:20:32.188
Like it leads to more heart disease.

00:20:32.938 --> 00:20:37.688
And I think it was 1990
they maybe did this.

00:20:37.698 --> 00:20:41.108
It was like 3% of men reported having

00:20:43.468 --> 00:20:44.568
no close friends.

00:20:46.008 --> 00:20:48.068
By 2021, it was up to 15%.

00:20:48.108 --> 00:20:51.258
I would even argue now it's
probably higher than that with

00:20:51.258 --> 00:20:53.068
technology and AI and everything.

00:20:53.708 --> 00:20:57.088
So more and more men don't have
close connections, and the societal

00:20:57.088 --> 00:21:01.098
structures that used to bring that to
us are also kind of evaporating, right?

00:21:01.098 --> 00:21:04.348
There's not really many men's
lodges or clubs anymore.

00:21:04.918 --> 00:21:07.278
A lot of church-going
behavior has dropped out.

00:21:07.678 --> 00:21:14.598
Work itself is becoming more kind of solo
work from home for a lot, a lot of people.

00:21:14.598 --> 00:21:17.218
There's no-, not even a
workplace to go to anymore.

00:21:17.518 --> 00:21:21.728
And this all compounds with men who
then already don't have the skill to

00:21:21.728 --> 00:21:26.468
build relationships and don't know how
to ask for help and keep it all inside.

00:21:26.798 --> 00:21:31.548
And the paradox, and I've seen this time
and time again in groups I've led, is

00:21:31.568 --> 00:21:35.348
the very thing we feel like we can't
share because people would judge us

00:21:35.348 --> 00:21:40.238
for it, it would show us weakness, we
feel shame about it, is the thing that

00:21:40.238 --> 00:21:45.548
will make us most feel connected to
other men when they see and recognize

00:21:46.078 --> 00:21:49.858
and affirm our pain in a sense.

00:21:50.258 --> 00:21:52.598
And it's been one of the
biggest challenges in my life,

00:21:52.608 --> 00:21:53.898
learning how to ask for help.

00:21:54.238 --> 00:21:56.078
It's like, oh my God, I could
suffer around this for three

00:21:56.108 --> 00:21:59.888
months, or it turns out I, I, I
called up a buddy and asked him.

00:21:59.888 --> 00:22:02.728
He's like, "Oh, you just fix it like
this." And it took me 20 seconds as

00:22:02.728 --> 00:22:04.608
opposed to tinkering around and whatnot.

00:22:04.670 --> 00:22:05.070
Michael: Right.

00:22:05.168 --> 00:22:08.798
Jason: So, the, the cards are, are kind of
stacked against us men in a lot of ways.

00:22:08.808 --> 00:22:12.888
And just the, the last thing I just see
more and more as I, I've worked a lot more

00:22:12.898 --> 00:22:19.018
with fathers over the last five years in
particular, I think one of the greatest

00:22:19.038 --> 00:22:26.248
gifts a father can give their children
is for their kids to see them happy,

00:22:27.008 --> 00:22:32.378
alive, and in a passionate relationship
surrounded by friends and community

00:22:32.998 --> 00:22:37.678
because that sets the template for what
they're gonna lead themselves into.

00:22:37.750 --> 00:22:37.930
Michael: Right.

00:22:38.540 --> 00:22:42.090
Yeah, I, I couldn't agree with that
more, and I think that, you know,

00:22:42.090 --> 00:22:46.310
your, your kids tend to follow your
actions, not your words, right?

00:22:46.520 --> 00:22:50.580
And I think when, you know, you talk
about this lack of vulnerability for men

00:22:50.580 --> 00:22:54.620
these days, you know, particularly for
dads, you know, we think we need to be

00:22:54.620 --> 00:22:59.210
strong for our kids, but being strong
for our kids also means showing them

00:22:59.540 --> 00:23:04.850
what vulnerability looks like, right,
and how we handle situations that are

00:23:04.900 --> 00:23:06.510
stressful, that are difficult, right?

00:23:06.510 --> 00:23:09.550
And we need to model those behaviors for
them because otherwise, if they see us

00:23:09.560 --> 00:23:13.080
always being stoic, they're gonna expect
that that's how they need to be, right?

00:23:13.080 --> 00:23:16.140
And so we're just perpetuating the cycle
so when they become fathers, when they

00:23:16.140 --> 00:23:19.850
become grown adults, they're gonna have
the same impression of what they are

00:23:19.850 --> 00:23:24.660
supposed to do, which is, "Let's be stoic.
I need to be, I can't be vulnerable around

00:23:24.660 --> 00:23:29.610
anybody. I need to keep this all inside."
We're not actually helping them lead

00:23:30.060 --> 00:23:33.800
better, happier, more meaningful, more
successful lives if we're demonstrating

00:23:33.800 --> 00:23:39.180
for them the wrong behaviors, right?

00:23:39.690 --> 00:23:47.220
And so we're just essentially perpetuating
our own loneliness on them by not being

00:23:47.240 --> 00:23:51.990
honest with them, by not demonstrating
those behaviors of vulnerability.

00:23:52.570 --> 00:23:56.240
And, you know, I just read, there was
an article earlier this year from The

00:23:56.240 --> 00:24:00.040
Washington Post about this epidemic
of loneliness among men, right?

00:24:00.040 --> 00:24:03.260
And so they're, they have these like
speed friending events and all these

00:24:03.270 --> 00:24:08.960
other things to, there's activities now
for, for men to meet other men, right?

00:24:08.990 --> 00:24:15.390
And like you do lots of men's groups, and
it is becoming more and more imperative

00:24:15.440 --> 00:24:19.500
in this day and age, you know, with
working from home and with social media

00:24:19.500 --> 00:24:23.820
the way it is, that men need sort of,
they need to make friends again, right?

00:24:23.990 --> 00:24:26.220
When we're kids, it's
easy to make friends.

00:24:26.220 --> 00:24:29.600
We're put in situations on a
daily basis to make friends.

00:24:29.750 --> 00:24:32.270
Whether we're going to school,
we're doing activities, right?

00:24:32.270 --> 00:24:36.270
Or maybe you joined a baseball team or
maybe we do a, a class together or we,

00:24:36.330 --> 00:24:37.770
you know, take a music class or something.

00:24:38.270 --> 00:24:40.850
You know, we even make friends like
in the waiting room at the doctor's

00:24:40.850 --> 00:24:42.170
office playing with the toys, right?

00:24:42.170 --> 00:24:43.260
Or the dentist office, right?

00:24:43.740 --> 00:24:48.370
We're always setting ourselves up to,
or we're being put in situations where

00:24:48.370 --> 00:24:49.620
we're set up to make new friends.

00:24:49.870 --> 00:24:54.930
At some point, those
situations go away, right?

00:24:55.040 --> 00:25:00.440
All of a sudden, you're a grown adult and
you have all sorts of responsibilities.

00:25:00.700 --> 00:25:03.330
You know, you need to run errands,
you need to take care of things

00:25:03.330 --> 00:25:05.760
around the house, you need to pick
up your kids from their activities.

00:25:06.200 --> 00:25:07.910
You know, you need to go to work.

00:25:08.110 --> 00:25:09.020
You need to get sleep.

00:25:09.020 --> 00:25:12.850
You need to do all these things,
and you suddenly don't have all

00:25:12.850 --> 00:25:16.610
those situations where you have
the ability to make friends, right?

00:25:16.870 --> 00:25:19.890
And it's on us to take
some initiative, right?

00:25:19.890 --> 00:25:21.240
We can reach out to old friends.

00:25:21.390 --> 00:25:25.100
We can go make new fri-, go to
events and make new friends.

00:25:25.100 --> 00:25:30.310
We can join a group, right, to meet
others because like you said, you do

00:25:30.330 --> 00:25:35.696
need to, you can't just rely on your
partner, if you're fortunate enough to

00:25:35.696 --> 00:25:41.176
have one, for all of your social needs
and all of your emotional needs, right?

00:25:41.466 --> 00:25:44.136
It's an unfair premise, just
like you wouldn't expect your

00:25:44.136 --> 00:25:46.146
partner to put everything on you.

00:25:46.146 --> 00:25:49.596
You have to spread out
your relationships, right?

00:25:49.696 --> 00:25:51.236
Yes, you should have a main focus.

00:25:51.256 --> 00:25:53.406
You have a spouse, like
they are your primary focus.

00:25:53.576 --> 00:25:57.986
That doesn't mean you shouldn't
have time to have friendships

00:25:58.226 --> 00:26:00.356
outside of the house, right?

00:26:00.356 --> 00:26:07.336
And because that will allow you to
sort of spread out yourself so that

00:26:07.336 --> 00:26:12.256
you're not overburdening yourself or
your partner or your relationship.

00:26:12.936 --> 00:26:17.486
It's, I'm not sure how to put it, but
it's like there is such an importance

00:26:17.486 --> 00:26:22.668
to maintaining friendships, finding
new friendships, or just having

00:26:22.668 --> 00:26:29.508
friendships in general outside of
your primary family relationships,

00:26:29.558 --> 00:26:31.168
right, for a variety of reasons.

00:26:31.218 --> 00:26:34.808
And it becomes more difficult
or it becomes less apparent

00:26:35.038 --> 00:26:36.348
as you get older, right?

00:26:36.598 --> 00:26:39.948
Maybe it's not more difficult because,
yes, you can make friends if you have

00:26:39.948 --> 00:26:42.618
young kids and you're in activities
together, you can make friends

00:26:42.618 --> 00:26:43.838
with other kids' parents, right?

00:26:43.838 --> 00:26:45.658
There's lots of opportunities there.

00:26:45.668 --> 00:26:48.918
You know, maybe you're all on the same
team, and so you guys are going to the,

00:26:48.958 --> 00:26:51.808
the games or the recitals or whatever
together, and you run into people and

00:26:51.808 --> 00:26:54.968
you start chatting and you, you guys
hang out or you have a playdate and

00:26:54.968 --> 00:26:57.158
you meet them and whatever, right?

00:26:57.158 --> 00:27:00.728
But, and it, but as your kids get older,
right, like I've got one in high school,

00:27:00.728 --> 00:27:04.728
one going into college, you know, we
don't have quite as many opportunities

00:27:04.728 --> 00:27:06.808
now to meet other parents' friends.

00:27:06.968 --> 00:27:08.898
But we do have our other friends' parents.

00:27:09.078 --> 00:27:11.638
But we do have a little bit more
time on our hands now our kids

00:27:11.638 --> 00:27:13.038
are more self-sufficient, right?

00:27:13.608 --> 00:27:17.718
So now it's on us to be like, "Okay, how
do we want to spend our time?" Right?

00:27:17.748 --> 00:27:21.198
And yes, like for me, I do need time
alone, right, because I'm an introvert, so

00:27:21.208 --> 00:27:23.528
like I do want time to read a book, right?

00:27:23.528 --> 00:27:28.158
And I do want time to, you know,
do some mindfulness work and go for

00:27:28.158 --> 00:27:32.938
walks, but I also realize, like, I
do need to socialize a bit, right?

00:27:32.938 --> 00:27:36.518
I do need to talk to some of my
friends and catch up with them.

00:27:36.518 --> 00:27:38.968
And it's like, you know, I just had
brunch with a friend I hadn't seen

00:27:38.968 --> 00:27:41.528
in a couple of years who lives, you
know, halfway across the country,

00:27:42.068 --> 00:27:42.918
right, but I grew up with him.

00:27:42.918 --> 00:27:43.958
We were super close.

00:27:45.008 --> 00:27:49.228
And, you know, just that hour, hour
and a half we spent at brunch was like,

00:27:49.228 --> 00:27:51.243
brought a whole new energy to the game.

00:27:51.243 --> 00:27:53.688
Just, just catching up,
reminiscing about old memories.

00:27:53.688 --> 00:27:58.358
Like, there is, I find a lot of value
in nostalgia, and so like that is

00:27:58.358 --> 00:28:03.748
something that we can, me and him can
bond over more than I can with anybody

00:28:03.748 --> 00:28:07.078
else because we had tho-, we shared
those experiences together, right?

00:28:07.618 --> 00:28:10.648
Just like there are certain experiences
that I share with my wife that we can

00:28:10.648 --> 00:28:14.338
bond over more than I can with anybody
else, there are certain experiences with

00:28:14.338 --> 00:28:17.868
other friends, and there's also this
opportunity to create new experiences

00:28:17.868 --> 00:28:19.448
that we can bond over and reminisce over

00:28:20.640 --> 00:28:21.100
Jason: Yes.

00:28:21.478 --> 00:28:21.738
Michael: in the future, right?

00:28:21.738 --> 00:28:28.578
So, the importance of having these
friendships i-, to not just satisfy

00:28:28.578 --> 00:28:32.258
that loneliness, but to also bring
us, you know, renewed energy,

00:28:33.308 --> 00:28:34.918
renewed hope, renewed purpose, right?

00:28:34.918 --> 00:28:40.238
Because, again, if our purpose is at
least partially based in the relationships

00:28:40.238 --> 00:28:44.078
that we're building, right, you can't,
it's just like if you're building a

00:28:44.078 --> 00:28:46.838
business, you don't re-, want to rely
on one customer for all your business.

00:28:46.838 --> 00:28:49.618
You want to spread out your business
across many customers in case

00:28:49.628 --> 00:28:51.418
something happens to one, right?

00:28:51.878 --> 00:28:54.108
Same thing with relationships.

00:28:54.108 --> 00:28:58.338
You can't put all your eggs in
one basket and just expect that

00:28:58.338 --> 00:29:01.758
your spouse is going to be the
only one you ever talk to, right?

00:29:01.828 --> 00:29:04.758
It's not going to lead to a
healthy long-term relationship.

00:29:05.148 --> 00:29:06.728
You need to be able to
spread that out, right?

00:29:06.868 --> 00:29:09.468
You need to have friends, you need to
have other family that you can talk

00:29:09.468 --> 00:29:12.898
to, that you can hang out with, that
you can just have new experiences

00:29:12.898 --> 00:29:14.298
with and reminisce on old ones.

00:29:16.514 --> 00:29:22.674
I-, it's so important, but we tend
to, and you covered this earlier,

00:29:22.674 --> 00:29:25.734
of it's like, we tend to put that
stuff on the back burner, right?

00:29:25.734 --> 00:29:30.364
We're like, "Okay, we need to just,
we need to work real hard. We need

00:29:30.364 --> 00:29:35.514
to make sure we do these things
at home," and we just forget to or

00:29:35.514 --> 00:29:40.654
just deprioritize or de-emphasize
some of these other relationships.

00:29:40.754 --> 00:29:44.704
I'm curious, like when you see
dads sort of maybe unintentionally

00:29:44.704 --> 00:29:49.614
disconnecting, but like what do you see
are, what do you see happening there?

00:29:49.664 --> 00:29:54.194
Even if like, they might care deeply about
like, they might have certain passions

00:29:54.204 --> 00:29:57.864
or projects that they, or hobbies that
they're into or, you know, they might have

00:29:57.904 --> 00:30:01.844
these friendships that they've had their
whole lives that they care about, but they

00:30:01.844 --> 00:30:03.214
kind of just keep separating themselves.

00:30:03.214 --> 00:30:04.094
What's happening there, do you think?

00:30:06.308 --> 00:30:11.938
Jason: Yeah, I mean withdrawal
is just one of the simplest tools

00:30:12.078 --> 00:30:13.528
that a lot of men fall prey to.

00:30:13.528 --> 00:30:17.888
If I'm just gonna start to withdraw,
it's, it's actually the opposite of

00:30:17.898 --> 00:30:22.568
being present, is I'm gonna actually
withdraw further and further into myself.

00:30:22.878 --> 00:30:26.908
And we probably all know men in our
lives who have done that, and they kinda

00:30:26.908 --> 00:30:32.788
in their own way become unreachable,
and it's so challenging for guys.

00:30:33.008 --> 00:30:35.668
I mean, a lot of guys come to me
and they're like, "I, I hear it.

00:30:35.728 --> 00:30:36.218
I hear you.

00:30:36.528 --> 00:30:37.488
But where?

00:30:37.868 --> 00:30:41.848
How do I meet men, make friends?"
All this kind of stuff, because there

00:30:41.848 --> 00:30:45.708
aren't nearly as many situations
for it that, that there used to be.

00:30:45.718 --> 00:30:49.848
And you're right, what you're naming about
the burden in relationship, I always, I

00:30:49.848 --> 00:30:56.310
like to use this kinda old school, um,
uh, metaphor of, you know, I, I imagine

00:30:56.310 --> 00:30:59.570
when you were growing up, when I was
growing up, you know, you, to hang up

00:30:59.570 --> 00:31:03.540
Christmas lights, you'd ha-, you'd hang
up Christmas lights, and if one bulb was

00:31:03.540 --> 00:31:09.050
out, the whole string didn't work, right,
because it was a single series circuit.

00:31:09.720 --> 00:31:13.060
And that's what happens to men
when they lose their friendships.

00:31:13.100 --> 00:31:18.290
Their system of relationships gets smaller
and smaller and smaller, till often

00:31:18.300 --> 00:31:23.230
everything flows through this primary node
of their intimate partner, their spouse.

00:31:23.750 --> 00:31:29.940
The challenge with that is what
happens when that relationship is

00:31:29.940 --> 00:31:31.920
in a point of stress or distress?

00:31:33.050 --> 00:31:38.520
Whoa, now the one relationship
that is my entire system, mostly,

00:31:39.100 --> 00:31:41.470
is bad, is not going well.

00:31:41.830 --> 00:31:45.440
I have nowhere else to go, and
my whole life feels terrible.

00:31:45.870 --> 00:31:49.510
It's like, wow, my wife and I are in some
struggles right now, and it is lonely.

00:31:50.170 --> 00:31:53.960
When we bring friends online, or in
the way I'm really passionate about, a

00:31:53.960 --> 00:31:57.900
men's group, what we're doing is we're
moving to that parallel circuit where,

00:31:57.900 --> 00:32:01.420
oh, if that bulb's out, that's okay,
'cause I got these bulbs around me.

00:32:01.690 --> 00:32:05.790
I have these different social connections,
some of which can hold me through these

00:32:05.790 --> 00:32:11.680
different points, and some of which can
give me the reflections I need that I

00:32:11.690 --> 00:32:17.800
simply cannot hear from my partner because
we're so entrenched in who we are, and

00:32:17.800 --> 00:32:19.430
it's your fault, my fault, whatever.

00:32:19.820 --> 00:32:23.670
But when loving men look at us and
they're like, "Hey man, this part of

00:32:23.670 --> 00:32:27.550
this is yours. It's not even hers." I
can't tell you how many men's groups

00:32:27.550 --> 00:32:30.730
I've gone to where I had a little tension
with me and my wife, and I was gonna

00:32:30.740 --> 00:32:34.020
go in there and da da da da, and they,
they were gonna tell me I was right.

00:32:34.230 --> 00:32:37.092
And by the end of the night, they're
like, "Dude, you're full of. That's just

00:32:37.092 --> 00:32:40.492
as much your responsibility as hers,
and there's something you're not owning

00:32:40.492 --> 00:32:42.252
there." And then I have to see it.

00:32:42.742 --> 00:32:48.292
And their only motive
is care for me, right?

00:32:48.292 --> 00:32:50.592
They're not trying to… it's, it's
different than intimate relationship

00:32:50.592 --> 00:32:51.762
where all this stuff gets layered on.

00:32:52.072 --> 00:32:54.792
So then I go home, instead of having
a fight, I have an opportunity

00:32:54.792 --> 00:32:56.112
for connection with my partner.

00:32:56.562 --> 00:33:00.472
"Hey, I, I, I see there's, there's
a way I've been contributing to

00:33:00.472 --> 00:33:03.822
this dance we're in right now that's
really painful for both of us, and

00:33:03.822 --> 00:33:08.792
I own that." And that leads to a
very, very different conversation.

00:33:09.042 --> 00:33:14.232
So, the more we can kinda create that
connection, the better, and you're right,

00:33:14.452 --> 00:33:15.842
part of the challenge is w-, often what
makes our young relationships from high

00:33:15.842 --> 00:33:16.652
school, college, et cetera, so meaningful
is we actually have time to, A, spend with

00:33:27.882 --> 00:33:34.032
each other, like just literally
time together, and B, we mess up.

00:33:34.880 --> 00:33:37.310
We make mistakes, we try
things, we do wild things, we

00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:38.390
have these weird adventures.

00:33:38.620 --> 00:33:40.390
Wow, I remember that time we tried
to go on the road trip and we

00:33:40.390 --> 00:33:41.630
got the flat tire and da, da, da.

00:33:42.100 --> 00:33:48.130
And, for men in particular, part of how we
bond is moving through adversity together.

00:33:48.670 --> 00:33:53.180
And, you know, it's not as simple
as biology, but there's some actual

00:33:53.190 --> 00:33:59.720
physiology as they've studied male bodies
that we have slightly more receptors

00:34:00.060 --> 00:34:05.000
for a hormone called vasopressin, which
is kind of a, a cousin to oxytocin

00:34:05.000 --> 00:34:09.400
most people know, the connection
hormone, but vasopressin, connection is

00:34:09.400 --> 00:34:11.700
activated by facing challenge together.

00:34:12.480 --> 00:34:13.790
Wow, we did this hard thing together.

00:34:13.800 --> 00:34:15.470
Now we're like best friends, like forever.

00:34:15.760 --> 00:34:17.560
See this all the time
in the military, right?

00:34:17.560 --> 00:34:22.220
It's one of the big challenging things
for veterans is when they come home and

00:34:22.220 --> 00:34:26.330
they know their people are still overseas,
they keep re-enrolling because it's

00:34:26.330 --> 00:34:31.260
like, "I, I, I can't leave them behind.
They're the closest people to me." And,

00:34:33.026 --> 00:34:38.516
It gets harder and harder to have the
time and to figure out, how do I, like,

00:34:38.746 --> 00:34:43.506
do hard things with my male friends where
we can make mistakes and get stories?

00:34:43.876 --> 00:34:46.786
And it's one of the reasons I really
love men's work and men's groups,

00:34:47.066 --> 00:34:51.006
because instead of kind of the
adventure being the outer world, it

00:34:51.016 --> 00:34:52.566
starts to become our inner world.

00:34:52.856 --> 00:34:55.786
It's like, whoa, what do you have
to deal with inside yourself?

00:34:56.056 --> 00:35:00.926
And we start to engage with that, and
we make mistakes, and it's hard, and

00:35:00.926 --> 00:35:05.356
we support each other through real
struggles and the depth of bonds, right?

00:35:05.726 --> 00:35:11.546
I have both personally experienced
this, and now I've supported

00:35:11.546 --> 00:35:13.056
other men in experiencing this.

00:35:13.806 --> 00:35:18.296
Had many guys and h-, have myself,
some of my closest male friends now

00:35:18.996 --> 00:35:24.656
are guys I spent one weekend with on
retreat eight years ago, who know me

00:35:25.146 --> 00:35:32.746
better than men I've known for 25 years
because of how we connected in that time.

00:35:33.126 --> 00:35:36.746
And this is more and more a thing I
do get men coming to me with, which

00:35:36.746 --> 00:35:40.456
kind of blows up the stereotype of,
"Well, I have no friends." Right?

00:35:40.456 --> 00:35:45.236
I had one client that spent, you
know, this year, went on a weekend

00:35:45.236 --> 00:35:49.686
ski trip he goes on every year with
guys he's known since he was a kid.

00:35:50.426 --> 00:35:53.476
And he's in the midst of a
very painful divorce right now.

00:35:54.376 --> 00:36:00.166
And only one guy briefly asked him
about it because they just don't

00:36:00.216 --> 00:36:01.746
talk about that kind of stuff.

00:36:02.186 --> 00:36:05.456
So he spent the whole weekend with
guys who have known him, and he

00:36:05.456 --> 00:36:11.186
came home feeling unknown, unseen,
and lonelier than ever because the

00:36:11.186 --> 00:36:18.006
type of relationships that most men
default to is triangulation, right?

00:36:18.006 --> 00:36:22.796
Which I kind of joke is basically me
and you, we have our attention on some

00:36:22.806 --> 00:36:25.236
third thing, and that's what connects us.

00:36:25.446 --> 00:36:29.756
We watch the sports game, we go
fishing together, we fix something.

00:36:29.776 --> 00:36:34.136
So we're literally looking at something,
but we're not looking at each other.

00:36:34.706 --> 00:36:39.146
And that's a men's group, these kind
of deeper relationships that is such

00:36:39.166 --> 00:36:43.256
the vanguard for us guys to step into
now is, "Hey, what happens when I go

00:36:43.256 --> 00:36:47.366
out to, to lunch with my buddy and we
put our full attention on each other?

00:36:47.616 --> 00:36:49.196
What is going on?

00:36:49.206 --> 00:36:50.546
What is it like to be you?

00:36:50.556 --> 00:36:51.756
Where are you in pain?

00:36:51.766 --> 00:36:56.856
What are you celebrating?" And it
completely changes what it feels like.

00:36:57.096 --> 00:37:03.088
And you're right, the, if connection,
or, or the fancier term co-regulation,

00:37:03.428 --> 00:37:07.978
if we sold that as a pill you
could just eat, people would be

00:37:07.978 --> 00:37:11.418
paying out the door for it, right?

00:37:11.688 --> 00:37:16.298
Brings down your blood pressure, you
shift into parasympathetic, your body

00:37:16.298 --> 00:37:21.598
relaxes, your heart rate relaxes, like,
your m-, immune system gets stronger.

00:37:21.598 --> 00:37:23.748
Like, so many amazing things.

00:37:24.188 --> 00:37:26.928
And connection is essentially
free to us, right?

00:37:26.928 --> 00:37:31.718
That just the experience of being fully
present with someone who's fully present

00:37:31.718 --> 00:37:37.988
with us, where we feel seen and known
by them, is like a miracle drug that

00:37:38.058 --> 00:37:41.748
so many men aren't taking advantage
of, where you're like, "Wow, I went

00:37:41.748 --> 00:37:46.788
out to this hour-long lunch and my
battery feels full for like three days

00:37:46.808 --> 00:37:49.188
now. What is that?" That's connection.

00:37:50.114 --> 00:37:50.354
Michael: Yeah.

00:37:50.354 --> 00:37:55.994
It's so, so interesting to me
because, like, generally speaking,

00:37:57.044 --> 00:38:00.014
oftentimes when I'm talking to other
dads, you know, the first questions

00:38:00.014 --> 00:38:04.094
we ask are like, "How are the kids?"
You know, "What's going on?" Right?

00:38:04.484 --> 00:38:10.304
"Did you see the game last night?"
It's all surface level stuff, right?

00:38:10.676 --> 00:38:11.056
Jason: Yes.

00:38:13.144 --> 00:38:16.384
Michael: And, it's really,
relationships are more than that, right?

00:38:16.414 --> 00:38:20.324
How often do we ask other dads like, "How
are you really doing?" Like, "What is

00:38:20.324 --> 00:38:24.854
really going on in your life?" Like, "What
can, what can I support you with?" Like we

00:38:24.854 --> 00:38:28.584
don't ask those questions 'cause they're
not comfortable on the surface to ask.

00:38:28.584 --> 00:38:30.304
They're not what we're used to, right?

00:38:30.784 --> 00:38:33.874
It, we, and like you said earlier, like
we haven't been trained on this, right?

00:38:33.994 --> 00:38:37.404
No, we didn't go to, most
likely did not go to school

00:38:37.404 --> 00:38:38.994
for this type of stuff, right?

00:38:38.994 --> 00:38:43.304
We didn't have a job based on, you know,
that was all focused on relationships.

00:38:43.304 --> 00:38:48.004
Like, we, we haven't had that training to
know what is the, the right way to do it.

00:38:48.774 --> 00:38:54.564
And, you know, you mentioned men's
group as a way to build these more

00:38:54.884 --> 00:38:57.724
dynamic, deeper relationships.

00:38:58.344 --> 00:39:03.424
I'd like to hear more about like, what
is, what is it about those men's groups?

00:39:03.424 --> 00:39:05.274
Like, what it, what does it entail?

00:39:05.274 --> 00:39:10.394
What is it, how do you get to that
deeper level of connection with, you

00:39:10.394 --> 00:39:14.274
know, make new lifelong friends that
maybe know you better than friends

00:39:14.274 --> 00:39:15.554
that you've known your whole life?

00:39:15.564 --> 00:39:19.794
Like, tell me more about the-, these
men's groups and like how does somebody

00:39:19.794 --> 00:39:22.804
who has no experience with men's
groups, like how can they approach it?

00:39:22.834 --> 00:39:25.774
Like how do they, how could they
get started if it was something

00:39:25.774 --> 00:39:26.744
that was interesting to them?

00:39:28.098 --> 00:39:28.228
Jason: Yeah.

00:39:28.268 --> 00:39:31.838
At, at a high level, the first
thing a men's group is, is it's a

00:39:31.838 --> 00:39:34.638
structure that facilitates depth.

00:39:35.308 --> 00:39:38.518
So the actual structure itself
changes the way you relate.

00:39:38.908 --> 00:39:40.778
And just a simple example of this, right?

00:39:40.778 --> 00:39:44.958
Which any m-, any married guys in a
long-term relationship now, this is

00:39:44.958 --> 00:39:47.788
a great one you can play with this
weekend with your spouse, right?

00:39:47.788 --> 00:39:51.888
I had to do it two years ago about
four months after my son was born.

00:39:51.898 --> 00:39:57.148
We got our first, like, two-hour
window, my wife and I. And here's,

00:39:57.268 --> 00:40:02.098
here's the rules we used, which is
structure that changed the way we relate.

00:40:02.628 --> 00:40:07.088
During this two hours, we can't talk
about the kids, and we can't talk about

00:40:07.088 --> 00:40:11.858
work We sat there for 15 minutes looking
at each other like, " What do we talk

00:40:11.868 --> 00:40:17.568
about?" God, the g-, the habit was to
go right there, and it forced us to

00:40:17.568 --> 00:40:24.118
connect in the way we first connected,
as lovers, as friends, as two people who

00:40:24.118 --> 00:40:25.858
just wanted to get to know each other.

00:40:26.318 --> 00:40:27.978
So that creates a kind of depth.

00:40:28.318 --> 00:40:33.348
So a men's group is a version of that,
where you circle up, literally you

00:40:33.358 --> 00:40:39.218
sit in circle with other men, and you
don't do the default culture thing.

00:40:39.798 --> 00:40:46.378
So, what we do is we purposely
drop in to our bodies and get

00:40:46.378 --> 00:40:48.158
real about what's happening.

00:40:48.918 --> 00:40:52.768
And one of the greatest gifts
a men's group can give men is

00:40:52.768 --> 00:40:57.168
helping men connect to their
dir-, direct felt body experience.

00:40:57.718 --> 00:41:04.558
What are you actually feeling in
your body and heart right now?

00:41:05.762 --> 00:41:10.712
And most men will default to
reporting about their life.

00:41:11.172 --> 00:41:14.012
"Last week I did this, and then I
did this, and then this happened,

00:41:14.012 --> 00:41:16.672
and then this happened." And a
men's group will cut right through

00:41:16.672 --> 00:41:19.092
it and say, "And what is that like?

00:41:19.992 --> 00:41:21.792
How are you feeling about that?

00:41:22.412 --> 00:41:26.182
When your wife ran out the
door, how did you feel?

00:41:26.782 --> 00:41:31.542
When your boss said you might lose your
job in a week, how did it feel for you?"

00:41:31.612 --> 00:41:35.762
"Oh my God, I felt terrified in my
belly. I feel so scared." It changes

00:41:35.842 --> 00:41:40.132
how we relate, and there's so many
different structures and ways to do

00:41:40.132 --> 00:41:44.792
that, but the idea is you're checking
in with your real experience, and then

00:41:44.792 --> 00:41:50.582
you're getting feedback from the other
men about how they're experiencing you.

00:41:51.022 --> 00:41:56.292
This is so key for guys, and it
becomes an incredible life hack, right?

00:41:56.322 --> 00:42:00.182
Oftentimes, most men I work with,
they've got some kind of big decision

00:42:00.182 --> 00:42:03.932
or something they're wrestling with
or uncertain of, and it blows me away.

00:42:03.942 --> 00:42:06.212
D-, you know, just had a guy
do this like six months ago.

00:42:06.382 --> 00:42:08.742
I think it was a job or
something he had to decide about.

00:42:08.772 --> 00:42:13.862
It's like safe, comfy job or this
kind of new risky opportunity,

00:42:14.432 --> 00:42:16.422
and he was legitimately stuck.

00:42:16.422 --> 00:42:18.132
He did not know what to do.

00:42:18.162 --> 00:42:20.232
Or sometimes it's about a
relationship the same way.

00:42:20.722 --> 00:42:25.082
And, you know, path A, he's like
yeah, you know, I could do this thing.

00:42:26.322 --> 00:42:27.152
It'd be really safe.

00:42:27.152 --> 00:42:30.492
It'd be really great."
Literally, his body is closed.

00:42:30.562 --> 00:42:32.222
His eyes are kind of looking down.

00:42:32.232 --> 00:42:33.802
His voice is very flat.

00:42:34.382 --> 00:42:39.182
Path B, he's like, "Yeah, wow, it would be
risky, but I could see this could happen,

00:42:39.192 --> 00:42:44.782
this could happen, this could happen." His
energy is so much bigger, so much bigger.

00:42:44.782 --> 00:42:49.192
It's so clear which one actually would
make him feel more alive in his life.

00:42:49.752 --> 00:42:51.522
He doesn't know it until
the guys reflect it.

00:42:51.522 --> 00:42:55.252
They're like, "You know, when you talked
about A, you were like a dead fish, man.

00:42:55.682 --> 00:42:59.322
When we talked about B, you were like
lit up, alive. Your chest was open."

00:42:59.322 --> 00:43:03.552
And he's like, "Wow, you're right. It,
it is actually clear to me." So a men's

00:43:03.602 --> 00:43:10.892
group can help circle that or reflect
that to us and simply give us reflection

00:43:10.912 --> 00:43:12.602
about how we're showing up in our life.

00:43:12.652 --> 00:43:17.092
And, I often say that that just very
simply how we talk about it in the

00:43:17.102 --> 00:43:22.572
work is it comes down to we get support
when we need to be held, when we're

00:43:22.572 --> 00:43:24.902
knocked off center, when we're stressed.

00:43:25.432 --> 00:43:30.242
Literally, we get support to help
us come back to our baseline.

00:43:31.452 --> 00:43:34.962
The other thing it does, which is often
the thing most men are craving they don't

00:43:34.962 --> 00:43:37.182
even need, is it holds us accountable.

00:43:37.942 --> 00:43:42.602
So we get feedback on whether or not
we're living up to the standard, not

00:43:42.602 --> 00:43:48.502
that anyone else set for us, but that
we are wanting to live in our life, and

00:43:48.502 --> 00:43:52.722
that accountability is really important
where, you know, I've been in groups

00:43:52.722 --> 00:43:57.402
where it's like six months in, someone's
like, "Hey, man," you know, or even two

00:43:57.402 --> 00:44:01.032
years, "You know, it's been two years, and
every time you come in here, you check in

00:44:01.032 --> 00:44:06.376
about how hard it is in your marriage."
What are you actually doing to change it?

00:44:07.966 --> 00:44:10.636
And like hold his feet to the fire,
and then he has to take action.

00:44:11.696 --> 00:44:15.806
And what that ends up creating
for guys is or, or why I love

00:44:15.806 --> 00:44:17.076
it is it creates three things.

00:44:17.136 --> 00:44:19.186
There's three things that
bring me back to men's group.

00:44:19.526 --> 00:44:20.926
One is efficiency.

00:44:21.346 --> 00:44:22.266
So I am a parent.

00:44:22.306 --> 00:44:23.806
I have very little time.

00:44:24.186 --> 00:44:30.436
The eight, the eight men I sit in circle
with twice a month here in my town I

00:44:30.446 --> 00:44:35.026
literally would not have time to sit
down with them one, one-on-one every

00:44:35.026 --> 00:44:36.786
month, just the way my life's structured.

00:44:37.246 --> 00:44:42.276
But four hours a month, I go very
deep with these men and feel very

00:44:42.276 --> 00:44:44.016
connected to them and their lives.

00:44:44.116 --> 00:44:47.876
So it's extremely efficient for me as
a man who doesn't have a lot of time.

00:44:48.806 --> 00:44:53.766
And then what I see a, a good men's group
do for two men, for men is two things:

00:44:54.096 --> 00:44:56.246
a sense of deep purpose and belonging.

00:44:56.836 --> 00:45:01.836
Purpose in that, wow, my presence
in this group actually matters.

00:45:02.486 --> 00:45:05.236
People feel it and notice
it when I'm not here.

00:45:05.496 --> 00:45:09.676
And sometimes I have the thing to
say or reflect to another man that

00:45:09.676 --> 00:45:14.216
can completely change his life, or
frankly, sometimes will save his life.

00:45:14.936 --> 00:45:16.876
And then it also gives
us a sense of belonging.

00:45:17.156 --> 00:45:19.676
I'm part of something.

00:45:19.838 --> 00:45:20.118
Michael: Yes.

00:45:20.246 --> 00:45:22.136
Jason: I'm part of a community of men.

00:45:22.436 --> 00:45:28.516
There's a reason, and it completely
changes men's lives, and it provides

00:45:28.516 --> 00:45:34.436
us with a type of brotherhood and love
that so many guys don't even know.

00:45:34.456 --> 00:45:40.246
They've maybe touched it on a sports team
or something, but to receive love from

00:45:40.246 --> 00:45:44.416
other men is like clean fusion energy.

00:45:44.796 --> 00:45:49.856
When guys first ex-, get a taste
of it, they're like, holy crap, I

00:45:49.856 --> 00:45:51.366
didn't even know what I was missing.

00:45:51.626 --> 00:45:55.296
I've been walking around siloed all this
time, and here are these men who are

00:45:55.486 --> 00:45:59.486
just here because they wanna see my life
be the best version of it it can be.

00:45:59.650 --> 00:45:59.910
Michael: Absolutely.

00:45:59.940 --> 00:46:04.990
I imagine then that those relationships
make your relationships at home even

00:46:04.990 --> 00:46:09.750
stronger because now you're showing up
better, more present at home because

00:46:09.750 --> 00:46:14.680
you've, you're not just relying on a
single relationship to carry you forward,

00:46:14.760 --> 00:46:19.220
and you're getting more clarity with
these additional perspectives that these,

00:46:19.390 --> 00:46:21.100
these other men are, are going into.

00:46:21.100 --> 00:46:24.260
And I, I love how you address the,
the time aspect of it, too, because

00:46:24.260 --> 00:46:27.070
I think, you know, the easiest
objection that a lot of dads will

00:46:27.070 --> 00:46:28.180
have is, "I don't have time for this.

00:46:28.180 --> 00:46:28.860
I'm already busy.

00:46:28.860 --> 00:46:33.220
I gotta take my kids here and there, and
I gotta do this for work and, you know,

00:46:33.220 --> 00:46:35.180
I gotta, you know, make dinner at home.

00:46:35.180 --> 00:46:39.000
Like, I don't have time," you
know, but two hours, there's what?

00:46:39.000 --> 00:46:41.710
144 hours in, no, that's not right.

00:46:41.740 --> 00:46:43.590
100 something hours in a week, right?

00:46:43.910 --> 00:46:47.540
140 plus 20, 168 hours in
a week at times four weeks.

00:46:47.550 --> 00:46:51.840
So you've got like, you know,
over 600 hours to work with.

00:46:52.650 --> 00:46:56.320
I think you can find an hour or two
within those 600 hours every month

00:46:56.840 --> 00:47:02.410
to do something for yourself, right,
'cause I say this all the time of

00:47:02.410 --> 00:47:06.450
like, you wanna show up for work
and do something meaningful at work.

00:47:06.630 --> 00:47:07.670
You wanna show up for your family.

00:47:07.670 --> 00:47:08.880
You wanna be present for them.

00:47:09.010 --> 00:47:12.260
You wanna be active with them, but you
can't do those things well if you don't

00:47:12.270 --> 00:47:13.980
take care of yourself also, right?

00:47:14.030 --> 00:47:18.820
And so you've gotta be able to carve
out an hour or two out of, you know,

00:47:18.830 --> 00:47:25.130
600-plus hours to work on yourself,
right, and to take care of yourself so

00:47:25.130 --> 00:47:29.540
that you can show up the way you wanna
show up for, for those around you.

00:47:29.750 --> 00:47:34.560
You know, I'm curious, it-, what's
a habit or practice that a dad could

00:47:35.600 --> 00:47:38.990
carry over into both their work and
their family life right now that

00:47:38.990 --> 00:47:40.820
they might not be thinking about?

00:47:41.470 --> 00:47:45.620
You have a lot of great ideas in terms
of like how to connect and be friendly.

00:47:45.620 --> 00:47:49.080
I'm just curious, like if there's one
thing that, that we can pull out of this

00:47:49.080 --> 00:47:52.540
today of like, what is a dad could do
right now, like for the next week, just

00:47:53.320 --> 00:47:54.620
a habit or practice they could start?

00:47:55.872 --> 00:47:56.432
Jason: Sure.

00:47:56.452 --> 00:47:56.702
Yeah.

00:47:57.172 --> 00:48:00.912
Honest to God, I mean, there's
many manifestations of this, but

00:48:00.912 --> 00:48:04.162
it's make time to restore yourself.

00:48:05.902 --> 00:48:06.852
Restoration.

00:48:07.312 --> 00:48:09.742
So that could be going
for a walk in the park.

00:48:09.802 --> 00:48:12.012
That could be calling
up a buddy for lunch.

00:48:12.262 --> 00:48:13.712
That could be getting a massage.

00:48:14.052 --> 00:48:18.792
That could be the things that don't
necessarily feel productive 'cause

00:48:18.792 --> 00:48:22.052
you've got this huge list that
just keeps growing of you gotta do.

00:48:22.522 --> 00:48:26.002
But if you don't have the energy
to actually show up for them,

00:48:26.352 --> 00:48:27.972
you're actually hurting yourself.

00:48:28.182 --> 00:48:29.292
This is the key thing, right?

00:48:29.472 --> 00:48:31.762
The platitude in our culture is so true.

00:48:31.782 --> 00:48:35.242
Like, you gotta put the
oxygen mask on yourself first.

00:48:35.582 --> 00:48:39.382
And what a lot of men don't get, and
I'll tie this into what you just said

00:48:39.382 --> 00:48:43.812
and why restoration is so important,
is right in family therapy, like where

00:48:43.812 --> 00:48:45.322
they do therapy with families, right?

00:48:45.322 --> 00:48:48.522
There's this famous thing where they
say, "You wanna know how Dad's doing?

00:48:48.732 --> 00:48:54.642
You don't ask Dad. You ask the kids, and
they will tell you very directly," right?

00:48:54.662 --> 00:48:55.512
'Cause they see it.

00:48:55.652 --> 00:48:57.412
They observe all of it.

00:48:57.842 --> 00:48:58.742
Or the spouse.

00:48:59.362 --> 00:49:05.522
And one of the reasons I keep going back
to men's group and why my wife supports

00:49:05.522 --> 00:49:09.942
me taking time out of our family to go
to men's group, to go on retreat, is

00:49:09.942 --> 00:49:12.222
because of who I am when I come back.

00:49:13.272 --> 00:49:20.892
The way I'm restored, where I am actually
more available to my kids, to her.

00:49:21.232 --> 00:49:25.792
My body literally is softer, more relaxed.

00:49:25.882 --> 00:49:27.802
There's more energy in my face.

00:49:28.292 --> 00:49:32.102
And that kind of restoration, whether it's
a men's group or any of the things we just

00:49:32.112 --> 00:49:38.732
talked about, nobody is gonna make the
time for you to do that for you, guys.

00:49:39.072 --> 00:49:40.712
You have to be the one.

00:49:40.852 --> 00:49:46.282
And why that's so key for fathers
is your kids will learn to do

00:49:46.282 --> 00:49:48.782
that by seeing you do that.

00:49:49.372 --> 00:49:54.952
If you don't do it, they're gonna step
right into that exact same grind that

00:49:54.952 --> 00:50:00.572
you have, and you will perpetuate this
very harmful thing that you think, "Well,

00:50:00.572 --> 00:50:05.162
I'm working so hard so I can set them
up in their life so they don't have to."

00:50:05.322 --> 00:50:10.192
But what I'm actually teaching them is,
"Well, put your body, put your well-being

00:50:10.202 --> 00:50:15.092
last." So taking that time, whatever
it looks like, and it doesn't have

00:50:15.092 --> 00:50:22.062
to be huge, to carve out restorative,
in a sense, non-productive, time.

00:50:22.262 --> 00:50:26.902
And if you really wanna drop the
bomb and shake up your life, play,

00:50:27.302 --> 00:50:32.722
do something fun that is playful
and non-productive and relational,

00:50:33.382 --> 00:50:34.762
and your whole life will change.

00:50:35.376 --> 00:50:35.616
Michael: Love that.

00:50:35.706 --> 00:50:38.056
I love that idea of restoration.

00:50:38.066 --> 00:50:42.486
And I think w-, to me it's like it's
attainable, right, 'cause it doesn't have

00:50:42.486 --> 00:50:44.316
to be this huge commitment or anything.

00:50:44.326 --> 00:50:48.446
It could be as simple as,
oh, you're, you like to draw.

00:50:48.476 --> 00:50:50.956
Maybe just take out a pen and paper
and just draw for a few minutes.

00:50:51.156 --> 00:50:52.006
Oh, you want to read.

00:50:52.016 --> 00:50:52.686
Go read a book.

00:50:52.846 --> 00:50:53.516
It can be physical.

00:50:53.516 --> 00:50:54.246
You want to go for a run.

00:50:54.246 --> 00:50:55.486
Go for a run or do a workout.

00:50:55.486 --> 00:50:57.346
Whatever it may be to restore yourself.

00:50:57.616 --> 00:50:59.196
Get a, you know, treat
yourself to a massage.

00:50:59.496 --> 00:51:00.316
Just something.

00:51:00.336 --> 00:51:02.246
It doesn't have to be an all-day thing.

00:51:02.406 --> 00:51:05.466
You can carve out that time,
great, and you want to, you know,

00:51:05.816 --> 00:51:08.426
do even more of that, but just
start with one thing, right?

00:51:08.426 --> 00:51:09.926
And it doesn't have to be the
same thing every time, right?

00:51:09.966 --> 00:51:13.456
You can, there's that ability for variety.

00:51:13.896 --> 00:51:19.786
And there's just so, it's such a
simple thing to do, but it's al-,

00:51:19.986 --> 00:51:21.436
it's also simple to neglect it.

00:51:21.736 --> 00:51:27.976
And that is the challenge, right, of
like you have to overcome your own

00:51:28.676 --> 00:51:34.576
fear of, well, if I take the time to
restore, then I'm taking away time from

00:51:34.576 --> 00:51:36.706
something else, but really you're not.

00:51:36.812 --> 00:51:40.522
Jason: Yeah, let me just note one key
here that I realized with my life.

00:51:41.332 --> 00:51:42.082
I'm an entrepreneur.

00:51:42.102 --> 00:51:46.932
I work all the time, and there was a
time where I wasn't working Saturdays.

00:51:47.432 --> 00:51:50.222
So, in my mind, I was
taking Saturdays off.

00:51:50.662 --> 00:51:53.232
And then it was in my men's group I had
it reflected to me, "Well, what do you

00:51:53.232 --> 00:51:58.622
do Saturdays?" "I'm with my kids and
family all day." That is not restorative

00:51:58.662 --> 00:52:01.762
time in the way I'm talking about here.

00:52:02.072 --> 00:52:07.572
For, for men, for the masculine,
restorative time, the easiest way you

00:52:07.572 --> 00:52:11.282
can think about it is time of no demand.

00:52:11.802 --> 00:52:17.862
There is no demand on you for
presence, for attention, for anything.

00:52:18.122 --> 00:52:19.682
There is no demand.

00:52:20.012 --> 00:52:26.462
You are in a place of having no demands
on you showing up in any kind of way.

00:52:26.702 --> 00:52:32.342
And when I realized that, I was like,
"Wow, I have severely neglected," and

00:52:32.342 --> 00:52:36.282
I've had to intentionally start to carve
out space to go on hikes with friends

00:52:36.282 --> 00:52:40.292
or just hang out, or a simple one for
me is I love going to movies alone.

00:52:40.532 --> 00:52:43.132
Just duck into a cold
air-conditioned room for two hours.

00:52:43.152 --> 00:52:45.952
I come out of there, I'm like, "Oh
my God, I feel so alive. This is

00:52:45.952 --> 00:52:48.412
so great." so like you're right.

00:52:48.412 --> 00:52:52.352
It doesn't have to be a huge fancy
vacation to Costa Rica or something.

00:52:52.622 --> 00:52:56.112
That you wanna micro dose this
stuff to have the most impact.

00:52:56.720 --> 00:53:01.120
Michael: That's such a, a smart
way of putting it, of taking away

00:53:01.120 --> 00:53:02.840
the demands on yourself, right?

00:53:02.850 --> 00:53:04.770
Of having a moment of no demands.

00:53:05.210 --> 00:53:08.850
So, I want to go from the super smart
to the not so smart in the speed round.

00:53:08.850 --> 00:53:10.970
Five quick questions, have nothing
to do with anything, starting

00:53:10.970 --> 00:53:13.740
with what's the first kids show
theme song that comes to mind?

00:53:15.202 --> 00:53:15.832
Jason: Oh, man.

00:53:18.302 --> 00:53:19.042
G.I. Joe.

00:53:19.238 --> 00:53:19.858
Michael: GI Joe, wow.

00:53:19.882 --> 00:53:20.882
Jason: Real American Hero.

00:53:20.912 --> 00:53:21.468
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:53:21.518 --> 00:53:22.128
Michael: Classic.

00:53:22.518 --> 00:53:23.518
What was your very first job?

00:53:25.448 --> 00:53:28.788
Jason: I washed cars at a
Honda used car dealership

00:53:28.850 --> 00:53:29.100
Michael: Oh wow.

00:53:29.128 --> 00:53:29.908
Jason: in the summer.

00:53:29.908 --> 00:53:33.188
It was actually great 'cause they
would just, I'd just be on the lot.

00:53:33.248 --> 00:53:36.148
We'd turn up the music, and we'd wash
cars all day, and no one would bother us.

00:53:36.608 --> 00:53:36.958
Michael: That's great.

00:53:36.958 --> 00:53:37.958
How old were you when you did that?

00:53:39.190 --> 00:53:42.050
Jason: I was 15, maybe 16.

00:53:42.092 --> 00:53:42.772
Michael: Oh, perfect.

00:53:43.012 --> 00:53:43.632
Great age for that.

00:53:44.252 --> 00:53:46.282
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:53:46.282 --> 00:53:47.882
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:53:50.822 --> 00:53:52.162
Jason: Toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:53:52.176 --> 00:53:52.656
Michael: Why is that?

00:53:54.562 --> 00:53:55.892
Jason: I think it'd be easier to manage.

00:53:55.960 --> 00:53:57.420
Michael: Okay, fair enough.

00:53:57.510 --> 00:54:00.100
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:54:01.816 --> 00:54:07.696
Jason: I really like "White Wedding"
by Billy Idol, "Rebel Yell" by Billy

00:54:07.696 --> 00:54:11.286
Idol, and "Losing My Religion" by R.E.M.

00:54:11.436 --> 00:54:13.446
Michael: Oh, great choices
all across the board.

00:54:14.906 --> 00:54:16.746
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:54:16.746 --> 00:54:18.376
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:54:20.258 --> 00:54:23.668
Jason: Weirdest thing I've ever carried
around in my bag, briefcase, or pocket?

00:54:23.738 --> 00:54:25.078
That's a great question.

00:54:26.138 --> 00:54:31.408
I don't know if it's super weird, but
I had a German roommate in college who

00:54:31.498 --> 00:54:39.518
gave me a, a bottle opener with like
some German thing on it, and I literally

00:54:39.518 --> 00:54:42.868
still have it on my keychain today
even though the thing itself broke off.

00:54:42.868 --> 00:54:46.368
So it's just this, and I don't
open bottles ever, but it's

00:54:46.368 --> 00:54:47.848
just a key part of my keychain.

00:54:48.112 --> 00:54:48.602
Michael: That's awesome.

00:54:49.032 --> 00:54:49.442
Love that.

00:54:49.972 --> 00:54:51.012
Now, this was so much fun, Jason.

00:54:51.012 --> 00:54:51.572
I appreciate it.

00:54:51.642 --> 00:54:54.902
I want to, for anyone listening who's
resonating with what you had to say

00:54:54.902 --> 00:54:57.522
and wants to go deeper into your work,
learn about what you're doing with

00:54:57.522 --> 00:55:01.432
men's groups and stuff, where should
they go and like, what should they,

00:55:01.492 --> 00:55:02.472
how should, how can they find you?

00:55:03.728 --> 00:55:07.628
Jason: Yeah, easiest thing to do is
go to my website, evolutionary.men.

00:55:07.648 --> 00:55:09.488
So it's not .com, but it's .men.

00:55:09.718 --> 00:55:13.508
And on there you can find my social
media links, my podcasts, my programs.

00:55:13.508 --> 00:55:15.608
I have intro men's groups programs.

00:55:15.608 --> 00:55:16.478
I have live retreats.

00:55:16.478 --> 00:55:17.848
I have all kinds of stuff.

00:55:18.228 --> 00:55:24.618
I also have a quiz for men at
evolutionary.men/quiz that will

00:55:24.618 --> 00:55:26.948
show you two amazing things.

00:55:27.588 --> 00:55:32.488
What your gift is as a man, probably
what you're really good at, and

00:55:32.488 --> 00:55:37.018
where that points to probably your
deepest area of growth simultaneously

00:55:37.268 --> 00:55:38.818
in your relationships and life.

00:55:39.138 --> 00:55:40.338
And it takes about 20 minutes.

00:55:40.348 --> 00:55:44.608
It's pretty fun and a good way to kind of
kickstart the, "Ooh, what do I do now?"

00:55:45.338 --> 00:55:45.648
Michael: Love that.

00:55:45.658 --> 00:55:48.988
We'll have links to, to your
website and to the, the quiz and

00:55:48.988 --> 00:55:50.148
everything in the show notes.

00:55:50.578 --> 00:55:53.838
Jason, this is a really important
conversation, and I'm so appreciative

00:55:53.908 --> 00:55:59.458
that you made the time to, to have this
with me today, and I love how practical

00:55:59.628 --> 00:56:05.868
and grounded, you know, you make this
something that to me was maybe a little

00:56:05.868 --> 00:56:13.638
abstract at first, right, of just as us
as men, like, how do we evolve and how do

00:56:13.638 --> 00:56:15.948
we focus on what's really important to us?

00:56:16.238 --> 00:56:21.368
You made it into something that with
clear actions that we can take, right?

00:56:21.418 --> 00:56:25.388
And they don't have to be overwhelming
actions, and it can be, you can

00:56:25.388 --> 00:56:27.808
start small and build from there.

00:56:28.068 --> 00:56:31.628
But it gives you an opportunity, and
you've, you've demonstrated, like, how

00:56:31.628 --> 00:56:37.568
you can actually refocus yourself to
focus on what's important to you and

00:56:38.138 --> 00:56:42.958
give the energy that you want to give
in the relationships that you have and,

00:56:43.228 --> 00:56:44.568
you know, focus more on your purpose.

00:56:44.568 --> 00:56:47.538
So thank you again for, for being
here and for chatting with me today.

00:56:47.538 --> 00:56:48.428
I really appreciate it.

00:56:48.678 --> 00:56:51.458
I think a lot of dads are gonna
hear this and realize they don't

00:56:51.458 --> 00:56:52.798
have to do this alone, right?

00:56:52.828 --> 00:56:58.288
It's, you can do it, y-, and you don't
just have to rely on your partner.

00:56:58.318 --> 00:57:02.448
You have, everybody has a vast network,
whether or not they've w-, they've

00:57:02.678 --> 00:57:07.068
worked on it recently or not, and
you can always expand your network.

00:57:08.148 --> 00:57:10.598
And so I appreciate you coming
on and, and sharing your message.

00:57:11.188 --> 00:57:12.208
So thank you for being here.

00:57:12.218 --> 00:57:14.638
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:57:14.638 --> 00:57:17.298
find yourself in between navigating
a season that feels different,

00:57:17.358 --> 00:57:18.248
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:57:18.248 --> 00:57:18.908
Comes out every Friday, and

00:57:21.238 --> 00:57:24.558
it's a quieter space to reflect on work,
life, and what really matters right now.

00:57:24.898 --> 00:57:27.098
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:57:27.098 --> 00:57:28.048
dad who might need to hear it.

00:57:28.588 --> 00:57:30.018
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:57:30.058 --> 00:57:31.968
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.