Carol Enneking on Why Work Life Balance Feels So Hard

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Carol: What you're doing in that moment
when you can look somebody in the eye

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and be present for that conversation,
you're building relationship collateral.

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And that's so much more important
than just doing a lot of work.

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Michael: Yes.

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Carol: Because when you really think
about what's important to you, what

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you wanna be known for, don't you
wanna be known as someone who cared

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and listened and, you know, worked
with people instead of just being

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dismissive or preoccupied all the time?

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today's guest is Carol Enneking.

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She brings a perspective I think a lot
of dads will recognize immediately.

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Carol spent decades inside high
responsibility corporate roles,

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including serving as the global
VP of talent and leadership.

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From the outside, it looked like success,
big roles, big scope, big impact, but

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behind the scenes, she started noticing
something that didn't sit right.

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The people who looked the most
successful were often the most exhausted.

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Instead of chasing better
balance, Carol began questioning

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the idea of balance itself.

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That work became the foundation
of her book, "The Rebalancing

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Act," and her work today helping
high achievers pursue success that

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actually holds up in real life.

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Carol, I'm excited to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Carol: Thank you.

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Glad to be here.

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Thanks for having me.

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Michael: My pleasure.

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I appreciate it.

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So I want to start where I think a lot
of dads who are listening are probably

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settling in right now, not in crisis
necessarily, but not fully at ease either.

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: You've said to me that
work-life balance is a myth and

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that rebalancing is a skill.

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When dads hear that for the first
time, what do you want them to

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understand about the difference?

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Carol: I think the difference that's
most critical to understand is that we

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need to stop chasing this ideal where
everything's going to make perfect sense

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because it constantly outdistances us.

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And then the minute you get into perfect
alignment, something's going to change.

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And so when, when I've worked with
people to instead think about that

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rebalancing act as the agility that
it takes in the moment to get back to

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center, to get back to what matters,
that tends to resonate more with people

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because that's something you can do.

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So that when you have those moments where
you feel like things are out of kilter,

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instead of saying, "Well, it should
be this way, it should be this way.

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Why is it not?" You're thinking,
"Okay, what is the change that I

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need to make in this moment right now
to move me in the right direction?"

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And, and it is a constant, it's
a constant force in our life.

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And so when we focus on that, it tends
to reduce the frustration of feeling

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like we're constantly missing this
goal of being in, in sync perfectly.

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Michael: Absolutely.

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So, to me, it sounds like
a shift in perspective.

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Would that be?

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Carol: It's, that's probably
you just sum-, summed up

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all my work in one sentence.

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But yes, and it's, it's how you
do that and when you do that, and

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knowing when you need to do that,
that makes all the difference.

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Michael: Right.

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And that changes perspective.

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It's not a permanent thing.

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Your perspective is
always changing, right,

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Carol: Right.

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Michael: as you get more experience,
and you find what does work for

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you, what doesn't work for you,

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: you have to continue to
reevaluate, continue to look at it

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from your current perspective and
say, "What is working for me? What's

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not working for me?" I-, is that the
sort of the, the background to support

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the, the work that you do is like?

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Carol: It is.

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It is because we are growing and changing,
as are the people around us all the time.

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So your life is different today than
it was two weeks ago or two years ago,

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as are your kids, your spouse, you
know, your, your significant others.

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We're all growing and changing, and so
that's the thing is when we sit here

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thinking things ought to be static
and ought to make sense, that's based

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on probably how life was yesterday
and not how things are right now.

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So it's, it's much more
about that flexibility.

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I remember early in my career, I kept
thinking, "Wow, it would be great

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if I just had a really stable job,
and every day was the same." And

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then over time, I realized I would
be bored silly if that were my job.

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And so instead of regretting the
flexibility or wishing it away, I learned

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to use that as an asset and to embrace
the fact that I'm flexible and I can

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respond to ever-changing situations.

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Use that as a strength, and that
does involve a change in perspective,

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and it involves a continual process
that I like to call rebalancing.

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Michael: That's so smart to frame it,
frame your changing your perspective

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as an asset, right, of like,

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: 'cause it's so easy to
get stuck in the moment, right?

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And

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Carol: Yes, it is.

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Michael: to not look
at the bigger picture.

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Carol: Yes.

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Yes.

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Michael: And you have this asset
available to you, right, of like

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taking a step back and looking at
it through your current lens to say,

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"Is this what works for me or not?"

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And it's like putting those asset-,
putting that asset to work for you.

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Carol: Yes.

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Right?

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It's like when they say you earn some
money, and you go to invest it, you're

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putting that money to work for you, but

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Michael: it is going to grow for you,
hopefully grow for you over time as you

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invest in however you invest it, right?

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Carol: Yeah, it's a great metaphor.

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Michael: It's the same for
your life, I presume, right?

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Carol: It is.

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Michael: Like, you have to, because it's
an asset, you can invest it in yourself

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to find the things that make you happy,
fulfilled, you know, not live in this cone

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of regret that we tend to get ourselves
into when we're stuck in the moment.

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Carol: It's funny, we talk about mindset
a lot, but I don't know that we really

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understand just how sophisticated a

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machine or a brain is because our thought
process, it, whatever we are planting

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in our conscious mind tends to start
becoming our unconscious reality, right?

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So if we're constantly saying, "I'm
stressed, this doesn't feel right,

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this doesn't feel good, I hate this,"
that's what's getting into our brain,

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and that's becoming our default pattern.

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And, and when we can hold thoughts
that will serve us well and

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learn to control those negative
spirals, we are far more fulfilled.

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And there's a whole lot of
brain science behind this.

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But, you know, I went from thinking, "Oh
my gosh, why is every day so different?

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Why does it bring such
different challenges?

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Why is it so stressful?" And then I
started thinking, "But the fact that

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I can shift and move and have this
variety every day could be a source of

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strength if I were to think about it
that way." And then I, I entered into

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a career where I had to be flexible.

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If I didn't have that flexibility,
I never would've been successful.

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And so it went from, "Huh, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna test out this theory and plant

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this positive thought in my mind and
see if it helps." It went from there

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to really informing how I approached
my, my career, my life, you know, and,

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and trying to use that as an asset
instead of dreading the, the crazy-,

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craziness that each day would bring.

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Michael: Right.

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And so I imagine you must
feel, you must have felt much

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better in doing that, right?

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: But you had to get started.

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Carol: It had to get started, and by the
way, you know, because things are always

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changing and new stressors emerge, I,
it, it's a constant reminder process

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that, okay, I can still handle this.

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I can still take the next step.

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I just had something catastrophic happen.

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Okay, what do I do now?

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You know?

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Michael: Right.

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Carol: Because every, y-, you, the more
you live, the more opportunities you

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have, the more chances you'll have for
things to go wrong, and the more you'll

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have an opportunity to practice this.

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So there are times when it's been really
easy to remember that, and there have

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been times when I've had to get out
of my own head and stop and go, "Okay,

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let's get back to, to, you know, these,
the-, these more normal thoughts and,

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and a more normal basis of living."

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Michael: Right.

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And I imagine then between those two
sort of extremes of, like, being on

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top of it and of getting inside your,
your own head and not being able to

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get that perspective, that there's a,
there's also a, a risk of imbalance

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in between those two extremes.

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And what I'm thinking of is, like I know
right now a lot of dads I talk to, they're

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grateful for the careers that they have,

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Carol: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: Right, because especially in the
economy we're in right now, there's…

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Carol: Right.

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Michael: And the job market is become a
lot more challenging for a lot of people.

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: And so they're grateful for
the careers they have, but they're

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uneasy about how much space in their
lives the work is taking up, right?

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They're getting, they're afraid to not
prioritize work or not even necessarily

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not prioritize work, but they're afraid
to step away from work for a moment

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to take care of things outside of work

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: because they know that
it's going to be tough to replace

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the, the job they currently have.

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: How do you kind of help people
tell the difference between a demanding

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season like that where it's maybe
you got a lot going on at work, maybe

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it's, you know, busy season, you're an
accountant, maybe, you know, it's just

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Carol: Yeah.

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Michael: that time of year
where sales are spiking and you

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just have to do more for work.

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How do you tell peop-, how do you
help people tell the difference

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between a demanding season
and just a misaligned life?

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Carol: Oh my, there's
so much to unpack here.

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There's so many reasons that you
can get to that point, right?

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And, and it's funny, I just had a
newsletter this week for my community,

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and it's it was I think the title was,
"You Can Be Overwhelmed and Excited

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at the Same Time," or, "Exhausted
and Exhilarated at the Same Time."

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Those two things can coexist and,
and that's okay, and that's probably

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going to be expected, and here's why.

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When you're ambitious, and capable,
and smart, and dependable, the

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kind of people who have jobs,
those skills are your strengths.

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But at the same time, they can start to
become weaknesses if they're overused,

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and you don't know when to dial them back.

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And so the problem that we
have, many times, is that we

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take on more than we should.

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We take on things that probably would
be just as well done by somebody else.

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Maybe it's something we like to do.

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Maybe it's something that we feel
like, "Well, I can probably do this

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quicker and easier than somebody
else," or, "I don't have the time to

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teach somebody else how to do it."

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So we take on all this work over time, and
then we wonder how we got so overwhelmed.

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And, and so when you talk about
the difference between a demanding

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season and a life that's out of
balance, I think the question is,

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how long of a period of time are you
existing in that demanding overload?

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And so I like to think
about it like a car.

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If you get in a car and you constantly
accelerate and you just put the pedal to

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the metal and floor it, over time you're
gonna crash, you're gonna run out of gas.

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You know, something
terrible is gonna happen.

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You're gonna burn out the engine.

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And, and in this case,
we're, we're the car, right?

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So we can't just accelerate constantly,
constantly, constantly without

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knowing when to back off, when to hit
the brake, when to take the car in

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for an oil change, or maybe in your
case it's a day off or a massage.

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You know, you need that
preventive maintenance.

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And, and Stephen, the late,
great Stephen Covey used to

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talk about sharpening the saw.

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And so what can happen over time, and,
and the analogy is that if you go out to

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chop wood and you've got a sharp saw and
you chop some wood down, and then you

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keep going every day and you chop more
wood and you chop more wood, but you never

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take the time out to sharpen the w-, the
saw, you will work harder to get that

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same amount of work done because your
sha-, your saw blade isn't sharp anymore.

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And, and that's like us.

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And so there are all these analogies out
there, but it's, it's different to have

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a season like, "Okay, I've got a big
project at work. We've got a deadline

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approaching. The next two weeks I need
to just focus on that a lot, and I might

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miss junior's baseball game or dance
recital." You know, that's one thing.

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But when you are doing that for
months on end or years on end, and

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you wake up one day and you're like,
"Wow, two years just went by," that

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is a life that's out of alignment.

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Michael: Yep.

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Carol: And so it's not that you're not
gonna have seasons where you really

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put that pedal to the metal, but
you've got to know when to back off.

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And a lot of times it involves taking
a good, long, hard look in the mirror

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to see what it is that you've taken on
that you probably shouldn't be doing

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'cause when we take on so much, wanting
to be 100% productive or not waste any

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time or, you know, we tell ourselves
all these stories about how much we can

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take on, but when we fill ourselves so
full of things to do, we don't have any

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time left to be fulfilled, and we don't
have any time left for the inevitable

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curveballs that are going to come our way.

00:14:02.165 --> 00:14:04.905
You know, I'm in the, the
stage, my kids are grown now.

00:14:05.265 --> 00:14:09.435
Used to be that you never knew when
you'd have a child sick or something

00:14:09.435 --> 00:14:13.825
come up with school or whatever, but
in this case now for me it's more about

00:14:13.825 --> 00:14:16.095
being a caregiver for aging parents.

00:14:16.655 --> 00:14:22.670
And so I, I'm so thankful that, hey,
when my mom fell, I could drop everything

00:14:22.670 --> 00:14:25.480
and be at the hospital with her, and
that's because I've worked to have

00:14:25.480 --> 00:14:31.120
some margin in my life where I had
some white space that I could realign,

00:14:31.120 --> 00:14:34.760
rearrange, because when things like
that happen, you don't have a choice.

00:14:34.760 --> 00:14:36.390
I mean, you, you've got to be there.

00:14:37.610 --> 00:14:40.250
But, but we tend to have so
much on our plates already.

00:14:40.250 --> 00:14:44.400
And then the worst is, I told you I
could, I could unpack a lot here, but

00:14:44.900 --> 00:14:49.430
it's always interesting to me when people
wear bidge-, busyness as a badge of honor.

00:14:49.660 --> 00:14:49.770
You know?

00:14:49.860 --> 00:14:52.520
"I'm so busy, I'm so busy,
I'm too busy, I'm so busy.

00:14:52.820 --> 00:14:57.340
I can't see you, I can't go for coffee, I
can't have lunch with you, I can't do this

00:14:57.340 --> 00:15:02.340
for the kids because I'm just so busy."
And they think that it, it, first of all,

00:15:02.340 --> 00:15:07.680
it comes off to the other person like,
"I'm, what I'm doing is more important

00:15:07.680 --> 00:15:11.900
than what you want me to do," and that's
a not a very good sign of respect.

00:15:11.900 --> 00:15:14.300
So, so there's that aspect to it.

00:15:14.740 --> 00:15:21.040
But it also is it always begs the
question to me, are you even working

00:15:21.040 --> 00:15:23.600
on the right things in the right ways?

00:15:23.640 --> 00:15:28.540
Or have you created a life without
boundaries so that you, you don't do a

00:15:28.540 --> 00:15:34.380
good job of prioritizing what's important
and knowing when to let things go?

00:15:35.105 --> 00:15:36.445
Michael: Right.

00:15:36.500 --> 00:15:39.560
Carol: So, so there's just a lot
to that, and I think it's real easy

00:15:39.560 --> 00:15:43.600
for us to get in this cycle of, "Oh,
I'm getting recognition at work.

00:15:43.600 --> 00:15:44.740
I'm getting good bonuses.

00:15:44.740 --> 00:15:45.780
I'm getting promoted.

00:15:45.780 --> 00:15:51.280
I'm getting, you know, ac-, accolades
from the boss," whatever it is. We can

00:15:51.340 --> 00:15:59.260
let that motivate us excessively or
we feel like we've got to keep proving

00:15:59.260 --> 00:16:03.590
ourselves because we're only as good
as the most recent accolade. But when

00:16:03.590 --> 00:16:10.660
we can say, "I work hard, I do a good
job, and I am worthy of taking a break

00:16:10.995 --> 00:16:11.855
Michael: Yeah.

00:16:12.370 --> 00:16:18.340
Carol: and, and realigning things,"
many times, people, when they finally

00:16:18.340 --> 00:16:22.500
do that, they're very surprised
that their bosses are so supportive.

00:16:22.985 --> 00:16:24.225
Michael: Right.

00:16:24.430 --> 00:16:26.600
Carol: Because they see it, but
they're, they can't necessarily

00:16:26.890 --> 00:16:28.900
help you get to that point.

00:16:28.940 --> 00:16:30.670
But they want you to be at your best.

00:16:30.710 --> 00:16:34.610
They don't want you to be stressed
out, burned out, exhausted, you know.

00:16:34.740 --> 00:16:35.530
And I've been there.

00:16:35.530 --> 00:16:41.880
I was that type-A worker for a while and
was constantly having to say, "Okay, am

00:16:41.880 --> 00:16:45.620
I out of alignment here, and what do I
need to do to regain that alignment?"

00:16:46.325 --> 00:16:46.745
Michael: Absolutely.

00:16:46.745 --> 00:16:50.575
I, there's so many things that I kind
of want to highlight that you just said.

00:16:50.945 --> 00:16:52.615
Like margin, right?

00:16:52.615 --> 00:16:57.645
You talked about building in margin
to your life and this idea of just

00:16:57.645 --> 00:17:03.855
because you're so busy doesn't mean
that's the right solution, right?

00:17:03.855 --> 00:17:04.135
And so

00:17:04.170 --> 00:17:04.260
Carol: Yeah,

00:17:04.605 --> 00:17:06.805
Michael: it's like busyness does
not necessarily equal productivity,

00:17:07.040 --> 00:17:07.900
Carol: Absolutely.

00:17:08.185 --> 00:17:08.215
Michael: right?

00:17:08.215 --> 00:17:10.155
You're not, just because you're
busy doesn't mean you're productive.

00:17:10.165 --> 00:17:10.295
It doesn't mean you're…

00:17:10.500 --> 00:17:13.580
Carol: And didn't your mother
ever say, "Just because you

00:17:13.580 --> 00:17:15.130
can, doesn't mean you should"?

00:17:15.605 --> 00:17:15.735
Michael: Exactly.

00:17:15.745 --> 00:17:15.775
Right.

00:17:16.000 --> 00:17:18.590
Carol: I mean, that's a pretty profound
statement when you stop to think about it.

00:17:19.175 --> 00:17:19.665
Michael: Exactly.

00:17:19.665 --> 00:17:23.525
And it gets me thinking of like,
we can replace paychecks, right?

00:17:23.525 --> 00:17:28.505
There are jobs out there, and we
can, we have to earn a living, right?

00:17:28.505 --> 00:17:31.115
We have to be able to support
ourselves and those we care about.

00:17:31.845 --> 00:17:36.835
And yeah, it might not be easy to
do a one-for-one replacement of

00:17:36.835 --> 00:17:38.055
the income that you have, right?

00:17:38.165 --> 00:17:38.365
Carol: Yeah.

00:17:38.785 --> 00:17:42.945
Michael: But what's a lot more difficult
than replacing an income is replacing

00:17:42.945 --> 00:17:44.245
time with those you care about.

00:17:44.415 --> 00:17:47.435
You cannot get back those
re-, dance recitals.

00:17:47.435 --> 00:17:51.135
You cannot get back those ball games
that your, your kids played, and you

00:17:51.135 --> 00:17:54.565
cannot get back those mealtimes, those
dinners where you guys are just cracking

00:17:54.565 --> 00:17:58.005
up, making jokes with each other,
and just building this bond, right?

00:17:58.135 --> 00:17:58.215
Carol: Yeah.

00:17:58.275 --> 00:17:58.405
Michael: You can't.

00:17:58.405 --> 00:17:58.565
Carol: Yeah.

00:17:59.145 --> 00:18:01.325
Michael: Those are irreplaceable.

00:18:01.495 --> 00:18:02.115
Carol: They are.

00:18:02.185 --> 00:18:03.735
Michael: Paychecks are replaceable, right?

00:18:04.025 --> 00:18:08.025
And the only way to, you're not striving
for perfection here, from what I

00:18:08.025 --> 00:18:09.635
gather from what you're saying, right?

00:18:09.635 --> 00:18:17.695
It's not about making sure you are
100%, you know, every time your kids

00:18:17.695 --> 00:18:19.375
have an activity, you are there.

00:18:19.525 --> 00:18:23.575
And like, you might have a work
trip, and you just cannot get to a

00:18:23.575 --> 00:18:25.425
practice or a game, and that's okay.

00:18:25.715 --> 00:18:26.205
Carol: That's okay.

00:18:26.535 --> 00:18:31.895
Michael: The key is not to, is to
find a way to have both coexist in

00:18:31.895 --> 00:18:34.825
a way that is healthy for yourself
and those that you care about.

00:18:34.825 --> 00:18:35.075
It,

00:18:35.135 --> 00:18:35.365
Carol: Yeah.

00:18:35.475 --> 00:18:37.935
Michael: not that one
completely overtakes the other.

00:18:37.965 --> 00:18:39.805
Your goal is not for a
perfect attendance record,

00:18:39.995 --> 00:18:40.565
Carol: Right.

00:18:40.725 --> 00:18:40.985
Michael: right?

00:18:41.325 --> 00:18:45.565
Your goal is to show up and be active and
be present in those individual moments.

00:18:45.565 --> 00:18:48.475
But you have to be able to show
up to both, to everything, right?

00:18:48.535 --> 00:18:49.555
Carol: Yeah, and…

00:18:49.615 --> 00:18:52.245
Michael: You just have to find what
is the right alignment for you,

00:18:52.985 --> 00:18:53.405
Carol: Yeah.

00:18:53.585 --> 00:18:54.905
Michael: right, which I think goes
back to the idea of like rebalancing.

00:18:55.455 --> 00:18:55.795
Carol: Yeah.

00:18:56.165 --> 00:18:59.585
And it, it's funny because now
my kids, my kids are grown and

00:18:59.585 --> 00:19:01.745
gone, but I asked them a question.

00:19:01.745 --> 00:19:07.385
I asked each one of them separately, "Did
you ever feel like there was a time when

00:19:07.385 --> 00:19:10.215
my work was more important than you?"

00:19:12.235 --> 00:19:14.825
And, and I want, and we
have good relationships.

00:19:14.825 --> 00:19:16.175
I'm very close with my children.

00:19:16.175 --> 00:19:20.395
They're 26 and 28, and I know they
would answer honestly, and they said,

00:19:20.395 --> 00:19:26.775
"No." They said, "We knew your job was
really important to you, but you also

00:19:26.825 --> 00:19:31.595
made us feel important when you were
with us." And the reason I want to

00:19:31.595 --> 00:19:34.145
share that is that I was not perfect.

00:19:34.765 --> 00:19:36.555
I did miss some practices.

00:19:36.765 --> 00:19:39.265
I did miss other things occasionally.

00:19:39.265 --> 00:19:43.555
I had a great team of other parents
who would fill in, send pictures and

00:19:43.555 --> 00:19:45.485
videos if I couldn't be at something.

00:19:45.835 --> 00:19:49.235
I didn't always have the most
gourmet lunch for my kids or the most

00:19:49.235 --> 00:19:53.405
amazing dinner, but we sat around
the table, and we had conversation.

00:19:54.045 --> 00:19:55.985
And so they remember the big things.

00:19:56.015 --> 00:19:57.775
They don't remember these little things.

00:19:58.155 --> 00:19:59.385
Michael: Right.

00:19:59.435 --> 00:20:01.525
Carol: And, and I hope that gives
people hope that you don't, you don't

00:20:01.525 --> 00:20:06.785
have to be there, you don't have to
have a 100% track record, but you

00:20:06.785 --> 00:20:11.555
want to have a good mix and be able
to be present for the ones who matter.

00:20:12.175 --> 00:20:12.325
Michael: Right.

00:20:12.725 --> 00:20:13.115
Absolutely.

00:20:13.375 --> 00:20:17.215
I think what I've learned as my kids
get older is that moments matter, right,

00:20:17.215 --> 00:20:18.135
Carol: Yeah.

00:20:18.250 --> 00:20:20.880
Michael: and you don't know when
those moments are going to occur.

00:20:21.225 --> 00:20:21.555
Carol: Yeah.

00:20:21.610 --> 00:20:23.260
Michael: Right, it could be
a car ride to an activity.

00:20:23.260 --> 00:20:26.910
It could be while you're making
dinner together or while you're, you

00:20:26.910 --> 00:20:28.940
know, eating a meal together, right?

00:20:28.970 --> 00:20:33.000
The kid, my kids seem to
remember specific moments.

00:20:33.145 --> 00:20:33.565
Carol: Yeah.

00:20:33.620 --> 00:20:35.620
Michael: They don't remember
whether my paycheck went

00:20:35.620 --> 00:20:37.920
through, right, every Friday.

00:20:37.920 --> 00:20:42.650
They don't remember, like, what
I did at work on a given Tuesday,

00:20:42.905 --> 00:20:43.095
Carol: Yeah.

00:20:43.320 --> 00:20:45.180
Michael: but they might remember this
one conversation we had three Tuesdays

00:20:45.180 --> 00:20:48.840
ago that w-, or three years ago on a
Tuesday that, you know, was just the

00:20:48.840 --> 00:20:50.100
funniest thing that ever happened, right?

00:20:50.100 --> 00:20:52.130
Or was just something more memorable.

00:20:52.855 --> 00:20:57.595
Carol: Well, and I bet you weren't on your
cell phone in those conversations either,

00:20:57.595 --> 00:21:02.985
and you weren't multitasking, or I like to
call it task switching, 'cause it's really

00:21:02.985 --> 00:21:04.995
hard to do all that stuff simultaneously.

00:21:04.995 --> 00:21:05.275
But,

00:21:05.600 --> 00:21:05.840
Michael: Right.

00:21:06.395 --> 00:21:10.725
Carol: You know, being present
has sort of gone out the window

00:21:10.725 --> 00:21:11.975
with all this technology.

00:21:11.975 --> 00:21:14.105
We're, we're always on.

00:21:14.295 --> 00:21:20.485
We're in, you know, we're in 14 text
conversations, exchanging emails with

00:21:20.485 --> 00:21:22.655
somebody else, have somebody else calling.

00:21:23.205 --> 00:21:24.455
It's crazy.

00:21:24.485 --> 00:21:29.025
And I just saw something the other day,
it was a girl probably about my, one of

00:21:29.025 --> 00:21:34.325
my children's ages, and she was saying
what I miss about the '90s moms or why I'm

00:21:34.325 --> 00:21:36.495
jealous of '90s moms, which that was me.

00:21:38.535 --> 00:21:43.045
She said, "My mother was always present
with me in conversations. She didn't

00:21:43.045 --> 00:21:46.955
have a smartphone distracting her. She
wasn't sitting there looking at her

00:21:46.955 --> 00:21:48.555
phone while she was talking to me."

00:21:49.745 --> 00:21:53.455
And I think about, uh, the pressure
that we're under with all this

00:21:53.455 --> 00:21:56.535
technology and everything, and
it's like, put the phone down.

00:21:57.745 --> 00:22:00.045
My daughter likes to say
hang up and hang out.

00:22:01.195 --> 00:22:06.745
So, but it's, it's hard because people
are always feeling like, "Oh, I can

00:22:06.745 --> 00:22:10.635
text you anytime." And then we feel
like we've got to text them right

00:22:10.635 --> 00:22:12.325
back, and it's like, no, no, we don't.

00:22:12.910 --> 00:22:13.110
Michael: Right.

00:22:14.100 --> 00:22:17.600
Right, what's gonna happen if
you wait an hour or 12 hours

00:22:17.725 --> 00:22:18.055
Carol: Yeah.

00:22:18.665 --> 00:22:18.885
Michael: to, to respond?

00:22:18.885 --> 00:22:19.105
Carol: Yeah.

00:22:19.840 --> 00:22:22.560
Michael: 99 out of 100 times, it's
not gonna make a difference, right?

00:22:22.770 --> 00:22:26.170
And it is so difficult to

00:22:26.770 --> 00:22:26.930
Carol: put

00:22:26.930 --> 00:22:28.230
Michael: the phone down sometimes, right?

00:22:28.320 --> 00:22:28.630
Like,

00:22:28.705 --> 00:22:29.005
Carol: It is.

00:22:29.010 --> 00:22:30.220
Michael: even if it's
not work-related, right?

00:22:30.220 --> 00:22:32.615
It's just, we might just
be scrolling through

00:22:32.665 --> 00:22:33.205
Carol: Scrolling.

00:22:33.230 --> 00:22:33.540
Michael: social media or

00:22:33.715 --> 00:22:33.875
Carol: Yep.

00:22:34.300 --> 00:22:37.930
Michael: looking at pictures or whatever
it may be, it is difficult to do.

00:22:38.315 --> 00:22:38.775
Carol: Yeah.

00:22:38.830 --> 00:22:42.430
Michael: But to become conscience,
conscious of when you do

00:22:42.520 --> 00:22:43.990
that is so important, right,

00:22:44.275 --> 00:22:44.605
Carol: It is.

00:22:44.660 --> 00:22:48.570
Michael: of like, it's difficult
to do, but you have to just

00:22:48.780 --> 00:22:50.080
recognize it once, and then it,

00:22:50.205 --> 00:22:50.665
Carol: Yeah.

00:22:50.970 --> 00:22:52.730
Michael: and then recognize it a
second time, and now it becomes more

00:22:52.730 --> 00:22:57.120
of a habit and a pattern that you can
follow so that you can be more present.

00:22:57.720 --> 00:22:59.020
I'm certainly not perfect
when it comes to it.

00:22:59.020 --> 00:23:01.530
I'm, certainly check my
phone around my kids.

00:23:02.350 --> 00:23:06.980
I think as they get older, it becomes even
more difficult because they've got their

00:23:06.980 --> 00:23:10.220
own phones and now they're, you know,
they're getting just as distracted, and,

00:23:10.445 --> 00:23:10.625
Carol: Yeah.

00:23:11.540 --> 00:23:11.870
Michael: you know,

00:23:12.045 --> 00:23:12.585
Carol: Yeah.

00:23:12.675 --> 00:23:12.795
Yep.

00:23:12.825 --> 00:23:16.185
Michael: they follow the behaviors that we
model for them, not the words that we use.

00:23:16.205 --> 00:23:16.975
Carol: That's right.

00:23:17.165 --> 00:23:17.965
Michael: You say, "Put
your phone down," right,

00:23:18.155 --> 00:23:18.885
Carol: Ooh, yeah.

00:23:18.985 --> 00:23:19.515
That's true.

00:23:20.115 --> 00:23:21.745
Michael: But we're on our phones,
they're not gonna listen, right?

00:23:21.745 --> 00:23:25.145
But if our phones are down and they're
on their phones and I say, "Hey,

00:23:25.295 --> 00:23:28.665
you know, let's put our phones down.
Let's just hang out, hang out or have

00:23:28.665 --> 00:23:32.915
a conversation," whatever it may be,
they're a lot more likely to follow

00:23:33.425 --> 00:23:33.745
Carol: Yeah.

00:23:33.895 --> 00:23:35.915
Michael: that lead
because my phone is down.

00:23:36.805 --> 00:23:39.945
Carol: Yeah, and I think I'm of the
age where we gave our kids smartphones

00:23:39.945 --> 00:23:44.275
'cause we didn't realize just how
dangerous it could be and all the,

00:23:44.275 --> 00:23:48.235
the downsides of it, and I think now
parents know better and they're starting

00:23:48.235 --> 00:23:52.285
to think about, "Do I want my kid to
have a smartphone at an early age?"

00:23:52.285 --> 00:23:54.045
I know that's a big debate right now.

00:23:55.595 --> 00:23:58.045
And it, it's, it's a tough call.

00:23:58.045 --> 00:24:03.215
I remember I was in a meeting, gosh,
this was at least 10 years ago.

00:24:03.215 --> 00:24:04.845
I'm sure it was more than 10 years ago.

00:24:05.255 --> 00:24:09.585
But I was really distracted on my phone,
and I had an employee say, "You know

00:24:09.585 --> 00:24:16.105
what? That's really bothering me, and it
makes it look like what you're doing on

00:24:16.105 --> 00:24:19.885
your phone is more important than what
we're talking about in our meeting."

00:24:20.725 --> 00:24:24.925
That hit me hard, and I was
very mindful after that.

00:24:24.925 --> 00:24:28.185
And then I got to the point where
I started, like when I was the

00:24:28.185 --> 00:24:31.775
one leading the meetings, I would
say, "Let's all be off our phones.

00:24:32.195 --> 00:24:35.555
If you have an emergency, if you
have something and you need to have

00:24:35.555 --> 00:24:40.635
your phone out, let us know and we'll
understand, but don't just use your

00:24:40.635 --> 00:24:44.275
phone to keep doing work because what
you're saying to everybody else is that

00:24:44.655 --> 00:24:47.515
what you're doing is more important
than what we're all talking about."

00:24:47.755 --> 00:24:52.285
And, you know, we, we tend to lose
perspective so easily and, and get into

00:24:52.285 --> 00:24:56.145
these situations where we don't, we
don't have proper boundaries anymore,

00:24:56.145 --> 00:25:01.595
whether it's technology whether
it's just the way we take on work.

00:25:02.255 --> 00:25:07.135
But I think that's what ends up
overloading us as much as anything

00:25:08.215 --> 00:25:11.785
just, just taking it on because we
can, even though we probably shouldn't.

00:25:12.585 --> 00:25:13.105
Michael: Right.

00:25:13.435 --> 00:25:17.715
I love that idea of, or not the, I
shouldn't say I love the idea of.

00:25:17.765 --> 00:25:24.685
I appreciate that your colleague was
like, "Your phone is looking like

00:25:24.685 --> 00:25:26.245
it's more important than me." And it

00:25:26.305 --> 00:25:26.535
Carol: Yeah.

00:25:26.855 --> 00:25:27.815
That was tough to hear.

00:25:28.275 --> 00:25:31.565
Michael: like what we were talking
about of like moments matter, right?

00:25:31.565 --> 00:25:35.605
Of, like, even if it's
not at home, even at work,

00:25:35.935 --> 00:25:36.455
Carol: Mm-hmm.

00:25:36.595 --> 00:25:38.115
Michael: putting your phone down
to be in that moment because you

00:25:38.115 --> 00:25:42.845
only have so much time with your
coworkers to get your work done.

00:25:43.075 --> 00:25:44.905
Whatever's on your phone
is still going to be there

00:25:45.245 --> 00:25:45.585
Carol: Yeah.

00:25:46.035 --> 00:25:47.315
Michael: after that conversation's over.

00:25:47.485 --> 00:25:48.635
Carol: That's right.

00:25:48.825 --> 00:25:48.855
Michael: Right?

00:25:48.865 --> 00:25:50.035
It's not going anywhere.

00:25:50.565 --> 00:25:52.935
Carol: And there are techniques
and tools you can use on your

00:25:52.935 --> 00:25:55.645
phone to flag messages, pin texts.

00:25:55.975 --> 00:25:58.805
You can do things to help you
remember to come back to it later.

00:25:59.125 --> 00:26:03.145
So take advantage of those tools instead
of feeling like, "Oh, I better do this

00:26:03.145 --> 00:26:06.555
now before I forget." I think that's,
that's where a lot of us get into trouble,

00:26:07.155 --> 00:26:07.235
Michael: Right.

00:26:07.405 --> 00:26:08.225
Carol: myself included.

00:26:08.815 --> 00:26:08.875
Michael: Yeah.

00:26:09.235 --> 00:26:12.895
And, and that's to say like we
still have to give ourselves grace.

00:26:12.895 --> 00:26:13.365
Like, we're not going to be perfect at it.

00:26:13.415 --> 00:26:14.775
Carol: Yeah.

00:26:15.605 --> 00:26:19.615
Michael: It is near impossible to
never look at our phones when we're

00:26:19.615 --> 00:26:20.405
talking to somebody else, right?

00:26:20.505 --> 00:26:20.735
Carol: Yeah.

00:26:20.835 --> 00:26:22.405
Michael: And sometimes we're
using our phones as we're talking

00:26:22.405 --> 00:26:24.245
to somebody else because we're
referencing something or looking or…

00:26:24.245 --> 00:26:24.885
Carol: That's right.

00:26:24.895 --> 00:26:25.445
We're looking it up.

00:26:26.395 --> 00:26:29.085
Michael: whatever be, right, so it's
like we're not going to be perfect at it.

00:26:29.175 --> 00:26:29.835
I think the,

00:26:30.425 --> 00:26:30.565
Carol: the

00:26:30.565 --> 00:26:34.685
Michael: idea here from what
you're saying is like, be cognizant

00:26:34.685 --> 00:26:35.845
of it when you can, right?

00:26:36.275 --> 00:26:36.535
Carol: Yeah.

00:26:36.895 --> 00:26:41.005
Michael: And then you can start to
build up some strength in that area

00:26:41.005 --> 00:26:44.335
of being able to put your phone
aside because you recognize, oh

00:26:44.335 --> 00:26:45.965
yeah, I'm in the moment right now.

00:26:46.105 --> 00:26:46.305
Carol: Yeah.

00:26:46.305 --> 00:26:46.365
Yeah.

00:26:46.565 --> 00:26:49.255
Michael: I'm going to focus on who is
in front of me instead of what is in

00:26:49.255 --> 00:26:50.785
front of me, what this phone is, right?

00:26:50.785 --> 00:26:53.855
Like, I'll put that aside, and the
more I do that, the easier it becomes

00:26:53.855 --> 00:26:55.755
because it becomes more of a habit.

00:26:55.755 --> 00:26:58.755
It becomes more of this pattern
that I can continue to do,

00:26:59.185 --> 00:26:59.485
Carol: Yeah.

00:26:59.955 --> 00:27:00.135
Michael: right?

00:27:00.195 --> 00:27:02.995
Carol: And it, it's, and what you're
doing in that moment when you can

00:27:02.995 --> 00:27:06.555
look somebody in the eye and be
present for that conversation, you're

00:27:06.555 --> 00:27:08.325
building relationship collateral.

00:27:08.705 --> 00:27:13.185
And that's so much more important
than just doing a lot of work.

00:27:13.815 --> 00:27:19.535
Because when you really think about what's
important to you, what you wanna be known

00:27:19.535 --> 00:27:24.435
for, don't you wanna be known as someone
who cared and listened and, you know,

00:27:24.435 --> 00:27:28.825
worked with people instead of just being
dismissive or preoccupied all the time?

00:27:30.105 --> 00:27:30.135
Michael: Right.

00:27:30.265 --> 00:27:30.405
Yeah.

00:27:30.785 --> 00:27:35.345
Carol: That's a, that's a question I
often ask people as we start thinking

00:27:35.345 --> 00:27:39.315
about that perspective, that thought
shift, is what do you wanna be known for?

00:27:39.315 --> 00:27:40.885
What do you want your legacy to be?

00:27:41.395 --> 00:27:41.635
Michael: Right.

00:27:41.835 --> 00:27:46.395
Carol: And, and if it involves how you
wanna be known to people, you gotta show

00:27:46.395 --> 00:27:49.265
up in a way that's in alignment with that.

00:27:49.795 --> 00:27:49.945
Michael: Yeah.

00:27:50.245 --> 00:27:54.005
Carol: And when you're too preoccupied and
distracted, it's really hard to do that.

00:27:54.575 --> 00:27:55.015
Michael: Absolutely.

00:27:55.335 --> 00:28:01.045
I love that phrase, relationship
collateral because we're trying to do

00:28:02.275 --> 00:28:03.725
work that means something to us, right?

00:28:03.725 --> 00:28:05.865
We're trying to live a life that
is meaningful and fulfilling to

00:28:05.865 --> 00:28:06.135
Carol: us.

00:28:06.205 --> 00:28:06.605
Yeah.

00:28:06.885 --> 00:28:09.115
Michael: You know, and the
dads that I, I talk to and

00:28:09.115 --> 00:28:13.405
work with, it's like we tend to

00:28:13.495 --> 00:28:16.475
Carol: look at work as a means
to get to the end, but really

00:28:16.785 --> 00:28:17.525
what we want to be doing

00:28:17.635 --> 00:28:22.775
Michael: is work that matters to us,
meaningful work, and the only way to

00:28:23.975 --> 00:28:27.735
do the work that means something to
you is to build relationships, right?

00:28:27.775 --> 00:28:32.525
All work essentially comes down to
relationships between people, right?

00:28:32.675 --> 00:28:32.925
Carol: Yeah.

00:28:33.165 --> 00:28:35.725
Michael: It is very rare you
can build a business or get a

00:28:35.725 --> 00:28:37.565
job without knowing somebody

00:28:37.565 --> 00:28:37.935
Carol: else.

00:28:37.985 --> 00:28:39.565
That's right.

00:28:39.575 --> 00:28:41.675
Michael: Right, so, you have to build
these relationships, and the only way

00:28:41.855 --> 00:28:45.655
to, or the best way or most effective
way to build these relationships, or as

00:28:45.655 --> 00:28:48.975
you call it, relationship collateral, is
to be present in the moment with those

00:28:48.975 --> 00:28:49.285
Carol: people, right?

00:28:49.285 --> 00:28:49.355
Yeah.

00:28:50.085 --> 00:28:51.915
'Cause, 'cause it's building trust.

00:28:52.495 --> 00:28:56.475
And when people trust you, and you have
that relationship, then they can give

00:28:56.475 --> 00:29:00.525
you the grace when you slip up, when
you get on your phone and you, or you

00:29:00.525 --> 00:29:03.135
say something you wish you wouldn't
have or something like that, you know?

00:29:03.135 --> 00:29:06.155
They're more likely to say, "I can
give you some grace on that because

00:29:06.155 --> 00:29:10.785
I know you, and I know your, your
heart, and I know where you're coming

00:29:10.785 --> 00:29:12.825
from," and your authenticity shows up.

00:29:13.475 --> 00:29:14.045
Michael: Absolutely.

00:29:14.525 --> 00:29:18.035
And then with, you know, back to
phones for a second of like phones

00:29:18.035 --> 00:29:20.205
take up our time and our energy, right?

00:29:20.470 --> 00:29:20.750
Carol: Oh yeah.

00:29:22.105 --> 00:29:27.235
Michael: And the more dads I
talk to, the more I hear, "I

00:29:27.235 --> 00:29:28.515
don't have enough time." Right?

00:29:28.595 --> 00:29:29.655
There's not enough time in the day.

00:29:30.119 --> 00:29:30.509
Carol: Yep.

00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:36.545
Michael: And when I talk to other dads,
many of them assume that the answer

00:29:36.545 --> 00:29:38.535
is better time management, right?

00:29:39.025 --> 00:29:39.095
Carol: Yeah.

00:29:39.095 --> 00:29:39.555
Michael: Like, that is what it is.

00:29:39.555 --> 00:29:41.535
Like, I just need to find
more time in the day.

00:29:41.535 --> 00:29:41.845
And,

00:29:41.940 --> 00:29:42.830
Carol: Yeah.

00:29:43.045 --> 00:29:44.545
Michael: yeah, maybe there's something
to do with your phones, maybe it's not.

00:29:44.545 --> 00:29:50.295
But is that the right place to start
or is there something, somewhere

00:29:50.295 --> 00:29:55.845
else we should be focused on to
kind of live a more aligned life

00:29:56.265 --> 00:29:57.785
between, you know, work and home?

00:29:58.010 --> 00:30:01.240
Carol: Yeah, I think, I think
time management is a symptom of

00:30:01.240 --> 00:30:04.750
a, a time management challenge
is a symptom of a deeper issue.

00:30:05.880 --> 00:30:08.970
And so by chasing your
calendar, you're not necessarily

00:30:08.970 --> 00:30:10.360
gonna fix that deeper issue.

00:30:10.790 --> 00:30:14.940
And I think it starts with, I think you
have to look at your life holistically.

00:30:14.940 --> 00:30:19.190
So if you think about your life in
different areas, you've got work

00:30:19.230 --> 00:30:23.860
or, you know, your vocation, you've
got family, you've got social,

00:30:23.860 --> 00:30:27.730
financial, spiritual, health.

00:30:28.210 --> 00:30:30.510
I'm forgetting a few, but
there's, you know, seven or

00:30:30.510 --> 00:30:32.900
eight key aspects to your life.

00:30:33.710 --> 00:30:38.640
And when you think about, you know, let's
say you could rate yourself from 1 to

00:30:38.640 --> 00:30:43.850
10, 10 being the highest, on, on how well
you're doing in each of those aspects.

00:30:44.950 --> 00:30:48.960
When you are trying to be a 10
on all of them, that's a recipe

00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.270
for exhaustion and burnout.

00:30:50.795 --> 00:30:51.095
Michael: Right.

00:30:52.240 --> 00:30:56.990
Carol: But a lot of times you may be a 10
at work and you're a two with your family

00:30:56.990 --> 00:30:59.040
because work's taking all your energy.

00:30:59.610 --> 00:31:06.960
Or, you know, you may have a, a 10 social
life, but your financial life's a two

00:31:06.960 --> 00:31:10.950
because you're spending all your money
going out every night, and your work-life

00:31:10.950 --> 00:31:12.210
not, might not be so great either.

00:31:12.520 --> 00:31:16.160
So, you know, it's, it's a balancing
act and what, what works for you right

00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:22.500
now may be to try to average about six
or seven in, in all the key areas that

00:31:22.500 --> 00:31:24.230
are most critical for you right now.

00:31:25.120 --> 00:31:30.000
And so instead of trying to be tens
everywhere, how does it look to try to

00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:35.250
balance that out, where you've got a
reasonable level of satisfaction across

00:31:35.250 --> 00:31:40.300
many areas of your life instead of
just being hyper-focused on one area?

00:31:40.650 --> 00:31:45.250
So, so I think you have to look
at your life that way, and I also

00:31:45.250 --> 00:31:48.630
think it's important to consider
the season of life that you're in.

00:31:49.370 --> 00:31:54.830
And, and by that I mean if you
have little children that's, you

00:31:54.830 --> 00:31:59.430
know, all the cliches apply because
they're true and, you know, it's the

00:31:59.630 --> 00:32:01.480
days are long, the years are short.

00:32:01.480 --> 00:32:03.240
I can say that now, my kids are grown up.

00:32:03.605 --> 00:32:05.135
Michael: Right.

00:32:06.630 --> 00:32:08.720
Carol: But, but when your kids are
small, if family time is critical,

00:32:08.750 --> 00:32:12.980
and I love that so many dads believe
that family time is critical.

00:32:13.130 --> 00:32:15.980
You know, I came from the generation
where my dad was not around.

00:32:16.070 --> 00:32:20.480
He was traveling and working all the
time, and I didn't see him much as a kid.

00:32:20.970 --> 00:32:27.120
So I love that we've rediscovered
that, that the importance of

00:32:27.120 --> 00:32:28.540
being there for our children.

00:32:28.540 --> 00:32:29.340
That's wonderful.

00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:34.480
But in that stage of your life, maybe you
aren't gonna be a 10 in the job right now.

00:32:34.660 --> 00:32:37.230
Maybe you aren't gonna
get the fastest promotion.

00:32:37.945 --> 00:32:39.255
Michael: Right.

00:32:39.360 --> 00:32:41.380
Carol: Now, with that said, if the
higher priority is that you've got to

00:32:41.380 --> 00:32:45.650
provide for your family, and you've got
to earn that promotion, and you've got

00:32:45.650 --> 00:32:48.180
to really give it to work, that's okay.

00:32:48.180 --> 00:32:51.900
You may not be able to be at every one
of the baseball games and practices.

00:32:52.620 --> 00:32:53.590
It's a trade-off.

00:32:53.620 --> 00:32:58.660
You don't get to these places
of success without sacrifice.

00:32:58.920 --> 00:33:03.370
But you've got to know what's most
important to you right now in this season,

00:33:03.370 --> 00:33:08.070
and by the way, that's where rebalancing
comes because every season is different.

00:33:08.620 --> 00:33:12.160
But when you know what's most important,
that helps you to make those priority

00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:17.750
sis-, priority decisions that are
most aligned with what's important.

00:33:18.090 --> 00:33:21.990
And then you can say no
from a place of knowledge.

00:33:22.420 --> 00:33:27.730
So you can start to discern, "Okay, I
could take that on. You know, I'm a CPA.

00:33:27.730 --> 00:33:32.830
I could be the treasurer of the baseball
team or the PTA, but I'm not going to

00:33:33.530 --> 00:33:38.000
because it's down here, and I'm already
filled up with these other things."

00:33:38.450 --> 00:33:42.750
Because you see, when you can say no to
something, it gives you the ability to

00:33:42.750 --> 00:33:45.150
say a stronger yes to something else.

00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:51.910
And so I think you have to get into
that level of detail, not for very long.

00:33:51.910 --> 00:33:55.600
It doesn't take very long, but you got
to clarify, "What's most important to me?

00:33:55.600 --> 00:33:57.290
What do I ne-, want to be known for?

00:33:57.690 --> 00:33:59.740
What are the priorities of this season?

00:34:00.210 --> 00:34:04.870
And where do I need to move things
around to be more aligned?" And

00:34:04.870 --> 00:34:09.060
then you can start to figure out
what to let go of, and then you

00:34:09.060 --> 00:34:10.560
can start managing your time well.

00:34:10.980 --> 00:34:13.760
But if you try to just start with
time management, you might not

00:34:13.760 --> 00:34:16.580
be figuring out the underlying
problem is that you're trying to

00:34:16.580 --> 00:34:18.110
be a 10 to everybody all the time.

00:34:18.775 --> 00:34:18.985
Michael: Right.

00:34:18.985 --> 00:34:20.575
Time management is more surface level.

00:34:20.850 --> 00:34:21.260
Carol: Yeah.

00:34:21.445 --> 00:34:23.795
Michael: What you really need to
do is dig underneath the surface.

00:34:24.370 --> 00:34:24.930
Carol: Yeah.

00:34:24.955 --> 00:34:31.985
Michael: I'm curious, how often should
we be reviewing our per, our point of

00:34:31.985 --> 00:34:35.395
view here, our perspective of, like,
where we should be spending our time

00:34:35.395 --> 00:34:36.835
and how we should be aligning things?

00:34:37.310 --> 00:34:39.710
Carol: You know, that's a funny
question because I think it's…

00:34:39.790 --> 00:34:42.610
I, I get asked that a lot, but I
think it's different for everybody.

00:34:43.020 --> 00:34:46.680
I like to say that it's good, at
least annually, to review your

00:34:46.680 --> 00:34:49.870
goals and, and your bigger plans.

00:34:50.700 --> 00:34:55.450
But I think other than the annual goals
that you're setting for yourself, which

00:34:55.450 --> 00:35:00.830
I think is a, a very good practice
and, and checking to see if you're, if

00:35:00.830 --> 00:35:05.975
you're making progress on those, I think
it's more about when you start feeling

00:35:05.975 --> 00:35:10.385
out of kilter, when you start feeling
like something's off, that's your cue

00:35:10.385 --> 00:35:15.455
to go back to, "Okay, what is it that
I'm prioritizing again?" You start

00:35:15.455 --> 00:35:18.705
with, "What do I want my legacy to be?

00:35:19.045 --> 00:35:25.045
What's most important in terms of
my life values?" And then, "What

00:35:25.045 --> 00:35:29.405
are my goals?" And when you have
those goals, it's amazing how you'll

00:35:29.405 --> 00:35:31.685
work toward, toward getting there.

00:35:32.735 --> 00:35:37.065
But, but you might have a lifetime
goal list that has 50 things on it.

00:35:37.065 --> 00:35:38.625
You're not doing them all at once.

00:35:38.970 --> 00:35:42.970
Michael: Right.

00:35:43.065 --> 00:35:44.315
Carol: And, and so the other thing I say
when it does come to time management is

00:35:44.315 --> 00:35:45.905
think about sequencing versus stacking.

00:35:46.325 --> 00:35:49.555
We tend to stack everything on our
to-do list, and we put like three

00:35:49.555 --> 00:35:53.425
times more than we can actually
accomplish on it, and we just pile

00:35:53.425 --> 00:35:56.125
things on up and down on the list.

00:35:56.165 --> 00:35:59.065
And if we think about sequencing,
what do I need to do right now?

00:35:59.635 --> 00:36:04.435
What is something I can not do, you
know, until three years from now?

00:36:04.795 --> 00:36:06.625
And think about sequencing that out.

00:36:06.625 --> 00:36:09.915
Have a couple of meaningful goals you're
working toward all the time, but don't

00:36:09.915 --> 00:36:11.465
try to achieve them all right now.

00:36:12.120 --> 00:36:13.150
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:36:13.420 --> 00:36:20.470
So on the flip side of that, can
you end up over-analyzing this?

00:36:20.470 --> 00:36:22.740
Can you be doing it too freq-,
so frequently that you're never

00:36:22.740 --> 00:36:23.720
actually getting anything done?

00:36:23.720 --> 00:36:27.550
Or the risk really just
never looking at…

00:36:27.925 --> 00:36:30.355
Carol: I mean, it would be a
nice problem to have to some

00:36:30.355 --> 00:36:32.485
degree, but I think if you are,

00:36:36.985 --> 00:36:37.975
it's good to plan,

00:36:38.700 --> 00:36:39.880
Michael: Sure.

00:36:40.135 --> 00:36:41.185
Carol: and it's really good
to have plans and goals.

00:36:41.915 --> 00:36:43.665
It's also good to know how to surrender.

00:36:44.420 --> 00:36:44.640
Michael: Hmm.

00:36:45.655 --> 00:36:48.905
Carol: The word surrender became very
important to me when my life kind

00:36:48.905 --> 00:36:54.935
of, it came crashing down around,
around me about, gosh, 12 years ago.

00:36:55.285 --> 00:36:56.345
Yeah, 12 years ago.

00:36:58.285 --> 00:37:00.645
And learning to surrender my plans.

00:37:02.315 --> 00:37:06.375
If I hadn't just surrendered and,
and, and figured out, you know what?

00:37:06.375 --> 00:37:07.765
My plans don't matter right now.

00:37:08.615 --> 00:37:14.905
Right now, everything's out the window,
and I need to figure out one step

00:37:14.905 --> 00:37:19.125
at a time how I'm gonna move forward
from this, just one step at a time.

00:37:19.875 --> 00:37:26.725
And by surrendering my own plans, I
believe that's what enabled me to open

00:37:26.725 --> 00:37:31.205
up for life, having bigger, better
plans for me than I had for myself.

00:37:31.735 --> 00:37:35.895
So I think the danger is, are we
so busy trying to plan everything?

00:37:36.845 --> 00:37:40.175
And then I think you also have to question
your motivation with the planning.

00:37:40.590 --> 00:37:44.590
Michael: Yeah.

00:37:44.645 --> 00:37:45.765
Carol: And what I mean by that is if you
are trying to check things off on your

00:37:45.765 --> 00:37:49.885
goal list so that you can put a picture
on Instagram and show how perfect your

00:37:49.885 --> 00:37:55.415
family is, I think you have to look
at what's really driving that and, and

00:37:55.415 --> 00:38:02.695
what is it that, that is telling me that
I've got to prove myself in that area.

00:38:03.625 --> 00:38:06.895
Because it's not about being
better than somebody else.

00:38:06.895 --> 00:38:09.075
It's not about one-upping anybody.

00:38:10.155 --> 00:38:13.395
If you want to do it because you're making
moments and making memories, that's great.

00:38:13.395 --> 00:38:16.805
But this comparison trap… not good.

00:38:17.275 --> 00:38:19.795
You know, when you, when you give
that up and start saying, "I'm

00:38:20.245 --> 00:38:24.635
only in comparison with, with my
best self and what I'm capable of

00:38:24.635 --> 00:38:26.155
doing," you're a whole lot happier.

00:38:26.785 --> 00:38:27.260
So,

00:38:27.260 --> 00:38:27.310
Michael: Yep.

00:38:27.395 --> 00:38:29.485
Carol: so there's a lot,
there's a lot to your question.

00:38:29.485 --> 00:38:33.925
It's a, it's a good question, but
I, I think it's, you got to examine

00:38:33.925 --> 00:38:39.755
your motivations and examine whether
you're planning so much that you're

00:38:39.755 --> 00:38:44.405
not allowing any room for the
unexpected that might be great.

00:38:44.970 --> 00:38:45.990
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:46.260 --> 00:38:48.360
I love the idea of one
step at a time, right?

00:38:48.360 --> 00:38:51.950
I talk about this a lot of, like,
you can't do it all at once.

00:38:52.470 --> 00:38:55.900
And, you know, it, it goes back
to v-, you mentioning, you know,

00:38:55.970 --> 00:38:57.810
stacking versus sequencing, right?

00:38:58.030 --> 00:39:00.550
Sequencing, you can take
it one step at a time.

00:39:00.560 --> 00:39:00.630
If you have

00:39:00.735 --> 00:39:00.935
Carol: Yes.

00:39:01.430 --> 00:39:04.030
Michael: a big mess you have to
clean up, a big physical mess

00:39:04.030 --> 00:39:05.515
of, of debris or whatever it is,

00:39:05.565 --> 00:39:05.765
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:05.780 --> 00:39:06.345
Michael: like, maybe you're
cleaning out a closet,

00:39:06.345 --> 00:39:06.405
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:06.870 --> 00:39:07.100
Michael: right?

00:39:07.400 --> 00:39:11.020
And you are trying to take things… You,
you wanna get your closet cleaned out.

00:39:11.020 --> 00:39:13.250
You don't just take everything
out of the closet and just

00:39:13.535 --> 00:39:14.285
Carol: Just toss it.

00:39:14.420 --> 00:39:15.310
Michael: throw, toss it, right?

00:39:15.430 --> 00:39:17.060
You kind of have to go through some of
that stuff, because you still have to wear

00:39:17.105 --> 00:39:17.215
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:17.290 --> 00:39:18.260
Michael: clothes at some point.

00:39:18.260 --> 00:39:18.380
Like,

00:39:18.425 --> 00:39:18.865
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:19.140 --> 00:39:20.030
Michael: you wear some of the
stuff, some of the stuff you're

00:39:20.030 --> 00:39:20.980
gonna keep, some of you're not.

00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:22.490
So how do you start, right?

00:39:22.610 --> 00:39:24.140
You start with the first piece, right?

00:39:24.140 --> 00:39:24.890
Grab one thing.

00:39:25.505 --> 00:39:25.995
Carol: Yep.

00:39:26.030 --> 00:39:26.740
Michael: Then you grab a second, right?

00:39:27.120 --> 00:39:29.460
And you start to maybe make piles, right?

00:39:29.475 --> 00:39:29.595
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:29.600 --> 00:39:31.410
Michael: And then once you have
your piles, you can then, you know,

00:39:31.410 --> 00:39:33.255
determine which ones are going back
in the closet, move those back to the

00:39:33.255 --> 00:39:33.475
Carol: Yep.

00:39:33.510 --> 00:39:33.790
Michael: Closet.

00:39:34.210 --> 00:39:35.370
Which ones are going to the donation?

00:39:35.370 --> 00:39:36.380
You take those to the donation.

00:39:36.380 --> 00:39:37.970
Which ones are worn
through and have to toss?

00:39:38.230 --> 00:39:39.610
You take those, you toss those.

00:39:39.710 --> 00:39:40.930
But you do it in steps, right?

00:39:40.930 --> 00:39:41.350
You're not,

00:39:41.355 --> 00:39:42.085
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:42.230 --> 00:39:44.960
Michael: with each piece, you're not
going, "Okay, I'm gonna donate this piece

00:39:45.180 --> 00:39:46.400
so I'm gonna stop going through my closet.

00:39:46.400 --> 00:39:48.780
I'm gonna go drive to the donation
center, drop it off, come back,

00:39:49.005 --> 00:39:49.315
Carol: Yeah.

00:39:49.370 --> 00:39:51.430
Michael: Pick up, take the next
piece and go, 'Oh, I'm gonna throw

00:39:51.430 --> 00:39:54.890
this one away.' So now I have to go
downstairs and throw it away and go

00:39:54.890 --> 00:39:59.490
back up to the closet." Like, it's an
insane way to clear out your closet.

00:39:59.490 --> 00:40:01.100
It's also an insane way to

00:40:01.355 --> 00:40:02.335
Carol: To clear out your life.

00:40:02.480 --> 00:40:02.625
Michael: live your life, right?

00:40:02.625 --> 00:40:02.735
Carol: Yeah.

00:40:02.825 --> 00:40:03.065
Yeah.

00:40:03.205 --> 00:40:03.585
Great analogy.

00:40:04.000 --> 00:40:04.535
Michael: You take one step, right?

00:40:04.535 --> 00:40:09.495
Carol: I just went through cleaning out
my closet, so I can appreciate that.

00:40:09.810 --> 00:40:11.850
Michael: Yeah, I think I need to
clean out my closet now, so maybe

00:40:11.850 --> 00:40:14.760
I was subconsciously in my head of
like, "Oh, I should be doing this."

00:40:14.770 --> 00:40:22.300
But, it is, again, like it
is hard to recognize that we

00:40:22.310 --> 00:40:23.930
need to reevaluate, right,

00:40:24.035 --> 00:40:24.905
Carol: Yeah.

00:40:25.920 --> 00:40:32.040
Michael: but it's not hard to implement
if we actually take the time to do it,

00:40:32.505 --> 00:40:32.805
Carol: Yeah.

00:40:33.780 --> 00:40:36.040
Michael: and when you say take
it one step at a time, sequence

00:40:36.040 --> 00:40:40.570
it, it becomes more practical.

00:40:40.570 --> 00:40:43.800
It's, you know, I start to realize
like, yeah, we can do this, right?

00:40:44.345 --> 00:40:44.755
Carol: Yeah.

00:40:44.950 --> 00:40:47.560
Michael: It doesn't, you don't
have to block out a day, a

00:40:47.560 --> 00:40:50.140
week, whatever, to get started.

00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:50.600
Carol: No, I mean,

00:40:50.650 --> 00:40:51.020
Michael: Take the first step.

00:40:51.140 --> 00:40:54.460
Carol: if you can take an hour
to just stop and think, it's

00:40:54.460 --> 00:40:55.750
usually what I tell people.

00:40:56.210 --> 00:41:00.410
Try to carve out an hour where you can
just do some, some self-reflection.

00:41:00.840 --> 00:41:00.940
Michael: Yeah,

00:41:01.590 --> 00:41:01.830
Carol: And…

00:41:01.890 --> 00:41:04.630
Michael: and that hour, I imagine,
doesn't have to necessarily be sitting

00:41:04.630 --> 00:41:06.390
at your desk looking at a piece of paper.

00:41:06.390 --> 00:41:06.790
You could be doing it

00:41:06.790 --> 00:41:07.000
Carol: Yep.

00:41:07.200 --> 00:41:07.740
Michael: On a walk.

00:41:07.740 --> 00:41:09.010
You could be doing it
while you're driving.

00:41:09.430 --> 00:41:14.880
It's just time for you, just kind of
distraction-free time to relax enough to

00:41:14.880 --> 00:41:16.530
the point where you can see more clearly

00:41:17.020 --> 00:41:17.270
Carol: Yep.

00:41:17.660 --> 00:41:18.830
Michael: what you've been, been doing.

00:41:19.560 --> 00:41:23.120
Carol: And by the way, one of the
things I do, I'm, you know, I have

00:41:23.120 --> 00:41:26.240
no idea what my neighbors think about
me, but sometimes when I'm walking and

00:41:26.240 --> 00:41:31.100
ideas are coming to me, I will use my
technology, and I'll just hit the button

00:41:31.100 --> 00:41:33.100
on my phone to record an audio message

00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:34.730
Michael: Right.

00:41:34.750 --> 00:41:35.180
Carol: so that I capture those ideas.

00:41:35.180 --> 00:41:37.480
So you could think about, you know,
what do I want to be known for?

00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:41.070
And just, just turn on the audio
and start talking to yourself.

00:41:41.610 --> 00:41:45.290
And then you can transcribe that,
and you'll have something to go from.

00:41:45.810 --> 00:41:49.210
So that's, that's, was a big
tool for me writing my book.

00:41:49.700 --> 00:41:52.760
So, yeah, I mean, it doesn't
have to be behind your desk, but

00:41:52.760 --> 00:41:54.300
use the technology to help you.

00:41:54.610 --> 00:41:57.220
The other thing I would say,
since you talked about cleaning,

00:41:57.220 --> 00:42:01.330
cl-, out closets, and I just did
that, I hired a closet organizer.

00:42:01.710 --> 00:42:02.890
Michael: Yeah.

00:42:02.940 --> 00:42:05.880
Carol: So, I think there's a lot
of tendency to feel like, "Okay,

00:42:05.880 --> 00:42:07.070
I should be able to do that.

00:42:07.820 --> 00:42:09.390
I should be able to
cook dinner every night.

00:42:09.390 --> 00:42:11.900
I should be able to, you
know, clean my house.

00:42:11.930 --> 00:42:15.760
I should be able to clean out my
closets." Well, you know what?

00:42:15.760 --> 00:42:20.010
When you're working hard, sometimes
some of those life hacks where people

00:42:20.010 --> 00:42:22.070
help you, that can really be good, too.

00:42:22.520 --> 00:42:28.090
So if their forte is cleaning out closets,
and they are organizers, and they can help

00:42:28.090 --> 00:42:31.790
you do it in a fraction of the time it
would've taken yourself, that might be an

00:42:31.790 --> 00:42:33.770
investment that you're, you could make.

00:42:34.380 --> 00:42:38.490
You know, can they clean the
house better, faster, and, and

00:42:38.490 --> 00:42:39.910
more efficiently than you can?

00:42:39.910 --> 00:42:44.370
Okay, well then maybe, maybe you do think
about getting someone to help with that.

00:42:44.930 --> 00:42:48.340
Meal prep services so that you
can get meals on the table.

00:42:48.750 --> 00:42:51.890
You know, I'm not saying you should
just go spend money and outsource

00:42:51.890 --> 00:42:56.770
your life or anything, but I do think
that sometimes enlisting help can

00:42:56.770 --> 00:42:58.290
help change your perspective, too.

00:42:58.290 --> 00:43:03.210
You think about, where am I using a
lot of my time and energy that I, on

00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:05.600
things that I really can't stand doing?

00:43:06.380 --> 00:43:09.150
And is there a way to get help
from someone else to do that?

00:43:09.150 --> 00:43:10.170
Maybe it's your children.

00:43:10.460 --> 00:43:14.530
I used to pay my daughter extra allowance
if she would cook dinner two to three

00:43:14.530 --> 00:43:16.200
times a week when she was a teenager.

00:43:16.530 --> 00:43:17.100
And you know what?

00:43:17.330 --> 00:43:21.490
She was a way better cook than
I am, so we had better meals.

00:43:22.310 --> 00:43:25.070
So there are some things like that
that can help when you really do

00:43:25.070 --> 00:43:28.140
get to the time management stage,
but I think it has to start with

00:43:28.890 --> 00:43:32.890
how you're spending your time, and
is it the right things to be doing?

00:43:33.505 --> 00:43:33.645
Michael: Right.

00:43:33.645 --> 00:43:33.805
Yep.

00:43:33.805 --> 00:43:33.865
Right.

00:43:33.865 --> 00:43:38.085
And I think it's, it's more than just
the time management benefit of it, right?

00:43:38.085 --> 00:43:40.465
It's, again, putting your assets to work

00:43:40.570 --> 00:43:41.090
Carol: Yeah.

00:43:41.145 --> 00:43:41.485
Michael: for you.

00:43:41.485 --> 00:43:46.665
If you are more happy and more fulfilled
spending your time doing certain things

00:43:46.895 --> 00:43:52.915
and other things drain your energy,
if there are ways to outsource some

00:43:52.915 --> 00:43:54.455
of those things that drain your energy

00:43:54.790 --> 00:43:55.080
Carol: Yeah.

00:43:55.485 --> 00:43:58.555
Michael: to allow you, either
outsource or automate so that you don't

00:43:58.555 --> 00:44:00.985
have to s-,

00:44:01.200 --> 00:44:01.610
Carol: Yep.

00:44:01.645 --> 00:44:03.655
Michael: expend as much energy doing
that, you can live a more fulfilling

00:44:03.655 --> 00:44:07.135
life, ha-, do more meaningful work, have
more time for the things that matter

00:44:07.135 --> 00:44:08.695
to you, the people that matter to you

00:44:09.030 --> 00:44:09.390
Carol: Mm-hmm.

00:44:09.535 --> 00:44:13.035
Michael: by having somebody else
or setting up a system that will do

00:44:13.035 --> 00:44:16.065
things for you that drain your energy.

00:44:16.220 --> 00:44:16.750
Carol: Yep.

00:44:16.815 --> 00:44:17.125
Michael: I mean, some people probably love

00:44:17.350 --> 00:44:17.510
Carol: Yep.

00:44:17.555 --> 00:44:20.625
Michael: organizing, like they'll
just go and, you know, to them,

00:44:20.625 --> 00:44:23.805
that is a good use of their time
because that is meaningful for, to

00:44:23.805 --> 00:44:24.945
them, it brings them energy, right?

00:44:25.125 --> 00:44:26.565
But for others, maybe it's not.

00:44:26.565 --> 00:44:31.085
And like in your case, it made more
sense to have somebody there to help you

00:44:31.125 --> 00:44:37.065
organize your closet so you'd free up
yourself, not just your time, but your

00:44:37.065 --> 00:44:41.185
energy, right, and your, your mental
capacity to do the things that are more

00:44:41.375 --> 00:44:43.045
important than your closet, right, to you.

00:44:43.070 --> 00:44:43.990
Carol: That's exactly right.

00:44:44.585 --> 00:44:44.725
Michael: Yeah.

00:44:44.800 --> 00:44:49.460
Carol: And, and I think to the extent that
some of your listeners are entrepreneurs,

00:44:49.860 --> 00:44:53.120
I think it's really easy to feel like
you should take it all on yourself.

00:44:53.150 --> 00:44:58.240
And thankfully, early in my career, I
trained salespeople for this company

00:44:58.900 --> 00:45:00.830
called, it's called Insperity now.

00:45:00.830 --> 00:45:05.120
It used to be called Administaff, but they
do HR and payroll and benefits, and their

00:45:05.120 --> 00:45:09.440
motto was, "We take care of your people
so you can take care of your business."

00:45:09.910 --> 00:45:14.710
And as an entrepreneur myself for
many years, it's so easy to want to

00:45:14.710 --> 00:45:18.640
take it all on yourself, and then you
say, "Huh, maybe I should have someone

00:45:18.640 --> 00:45:23.290
helping me, me with admin or with
social media or with, you know, office

00:45:23.290 --> 00:45:24.830
management," whatever it might be.

00:45:25.740 --> 00:45:30.730
It can feel like such a leap to start
paying somebody else, but that is a

00:45:30.730 --> 00:45:34.280
huge perspective shift because you
have to be focused on what you got

00:45:34.280 --> 00:45:36.050
into business to do in the first place.

00:45:36.720 --> 00:45:40.600
And when you're so preoccupied
with all the tasks, you know,

00:45:40.820 --> 00:45:45.590
bookkeeping, I couldn't h-, hire
a bookkeeper fast enough for me.

00:45:46.175 --> 00:45:46.385
Michael: Exactly.

00:45:46.385 --> 00:45:50.385
Absolutely.

00:45:50.500 --> 00:45:51.280
Carol: So, there's a lot of things,
where these things are burning us out,

00:45:51.790 --> 00:45:55.420
and we're not necessarily doing them in
the best, most efficient ways, 'cause

00:45:55.420 --> 00:45:59.950
we know we can do it, so we just keep
taking it on ourselves, and then we,

00:46:00.230 --> 00:46:03.330
you know, we don't know what our limits
are until we reach them, and then

00:46:03.330 --> 00:46:04.970
we're wondering why we're so exhausted.

00:46:05.525 --> 00:46:06.355
Michael: Yep, absolutely.

00:46:06.355 --> 00:46:07.265
I'm the same way.

00:46:07.265 --> 00:46:12.045
In my business, I outsource certain
things and, you know, you mentioned

00:46:12.045 --> 00:46:14.895
like, do you want to give up control
on some of these things, right?

00:46:14.895 --> 00:46:15.165
Or,

00:46:15.300 --> 00:46:15.850
Carol: Yeah.

00:46:15.915 --> 00:46:16.425
Michael: losing control.

00:46:16.715 --> 00:46:21.085
There are ways to bring on
others or set up processes

00:46:21.135 --> 00:46:24.305
for, to handle things for you.

00:46:24.715 --> 00:46:26.025
You can still set the standard,

00:46:26.430 --> 00:46:27.170
Carol: That's right.

00:46:27.225 --> 00:46:27.675
Michael: right, that they
did that for me, right?

00:46:27.705 --> 00:46:31.885
And then they, they meet your standard,
somebody you can bring on, to do some

00:46:31.885 --> 00:46:34.575
of that work for you so you can focus
on what's more important to you.

00:46:34.575 --> 00:46:37.685
Again, like they say, you know
the old saying of like, surround

00:46:37.685 --> 00:46:39.675
yourself with people better than
you, smarter than you, right?

00:46:39.830 --> 00:46:40.080
Carol: Yeah.

00:46:40.405 --> 00:46:43.005
Michael: That is the purpose of
outsourcing some of these things

00:46:43.345 --> 00:46:43.365
Carol: Yeah.

00:46:43.535 --> 00:46:44.905
Michael: is somebody can do
it more efficiently than you,

00:46:44.905 --> 00:46:44.985
Carol: For sure.

00:46:45.125 --> 00:46:45.825
Michael: can do it better than you.

00:46:45.985 --> 00:46:49.045
You can get a bigger return on
investment by focusing on something else.

00:46:49.045 --> 00:46:51.115
And sometimes that investment is yourself.

00:46:51.235 --> 00:46:52.185
It's not a financial investment, right?

00:46:52.325 --> 00:46:52.825
Carol: That's right.

00:46:53.385 --> 00:46:55.205
Yeah, and we, we forget that part,

00:46:55.645 --> 00:46:56.085
Michael: Yes.

00:46:56.085 --> 00:46:59.645
Carol: and we put ourselves last,
and that's not, that's not good.

00:46:59.645 --> 00:47:04.775
I mean, that's what really led me to
a lot of burnout is trying to give

00:47:04.775 --> 00:47:07.705
everything to everybody else all the
time and not taking care of myself.

00:47:08.095 --> 00:47:08.185
Michael: Yep.

00:47:08.765 --> 00:47:09.245
Absolutely.

00:47:09.615 --> 00:47:11.895
All right, so I want to go from the
serious to the totally unserious now.

00:47:11.945 --> 00:47:12.415
Carol: Okay.

00:47:12.705 --> 00:47:15.245
Michael: Time for our speed round,
five quick questions, starting

00:47:15.245 --> 00:47:17.945
with what's the first kids show
theme song that comes to mind?

00:47:18.435 --> 00:47:19.645
Carol: Kid show theme song?

00:47:19.645 --> 00:47:20.705
Oh my goodness.

00:47:21.555 --> 00:47:22.045
Wow.

00:47:22.535 --> 00:47:27.475
Well, if I think about shows I watched as
a kid, I'd probably say The Brady Bunch.

00:47:27.595 --> 00:47:27.685
Michael: Brady Bunch.

00:47:27.965 --> 00:47:32.035
Carol: If I think about shows my kids
watched, this is an old one, but it

00:47:32.035 --> 00:47:36.465
probably would be the Barney, Barney
theme song, "I Love You, You Love Me".

00:47:36.465 --> 00:47:38.345
I feel like that's burned
in my head forever.

00:47:39.105 --> 00:47:43.855
Michael: There are a lot of
people that grew up on Barney.

00:47:44.125 --> 00:47:44.315
Carol: Yeah.

00:47:44.685 --> 00:47:44.975
Michael: For sure.

00:47:46.065 --> 00:47:48.995
He was, it was its own, own beast.

00:47:49.435 --> 00:47:49.795
Carol: Yeah.

00:47:50.005 --> 00:47:51.015
Michael: What was your very first job?

00:47:51.975 --> 00:47:54.135
Carol: Very first job was babysitting.

00:47:54.505 --> 00:47:54.645
Michael: Okay.

00:47:55.145 --> 00:48:00.695
Carol: Didn't love it, so I did some
other ones as soon as I turned 16

00:48:00.695 --> 00:48:02.125
and could drive to a job, but…

00:48:02.765 --> 00:48:03.085
Michael: Sure.

00:48:03.675 --> 00:48:04.125
Fair enough.

00:48:04.465 --> 00:48:07.195
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:48:07.195 --> 00:48:08.505
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:48:08.825 --> 00:48:09.835
Speaking of babysitting.

00:48:10.495 --> 00:48:11.165
Carol: Oh my.

00:48:12.835 --> 00:48:17.995
Well, I think my initial answer would be
the toddler-sized T-Rex because that might

00:48:17.995 --> 00:48:22.385
be a little more containable if I could
get, I mean, if I could just isolate the

00:48:22.385 --> 00:48:25.925
little teeny arms and the teeth, I guess.

00:48:26.105 --> 00:48:26.265
Michael: Yep.

00:48:26.945 --> 00:48:28.035
Carol: Maybe I'd have a prayer.

00:48:28.035 --> 00:48:31.935
Although it could be fun to have
the giant toddler and run around.

00:48:32.275 --> 00:48:35.645
That could, that could… Wow, I
hadn't really thought about that one.

00:48:35.645 --> 00:48:38.545
But I'd probably stick with
the toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:48:38.855 --> 00:48:39.915
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:48:40.735 --> 00:48:44.075
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:48:44.465 --> 00:48:45.905
Carol: Oh my.

00:48:48.375 --> 00:48:50.945
I guess I'd, that would take me back
to probably the first time I ever

00:48:50.945 --> 00:48:56.845
karaoked, which was, of all things, it
was "My Best Friend's Girl" by The Cars.

00:48:56.955 --> 00:49:01.405
And I d-, I laugh because I was up there
with a group of my friends, and we had had

00:49:01.405 --> 00:49:05.595
a lot to drink and stuff, so, but yeah,
we had fun singing that, so I don't know.

00:49:05.595 --> 00:49:08.795
That, every time I hear that song
now I can just picture myself on the

00:49:08.795 --> 00:49:12.025
s-, on the stage, so probably that.

00:49:12.415 --> 00:49:12.975
I don't know.

00:49:13.125 --> 00:49:13.905
I don't karaoke

00:49:14.030 --> 00:49:14.110
Michael: Great song.

00:49:14.110 --> 00:49:14.325
Great band, too.

00:49:14.325 --> 00:49:14.435
Carol: that much.

00:49:15.390 --> 00:49:16.120
Michael: Yeah, love that.

00:49:16.120 --> 00:49:18.160
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:49:18.160 --> 00:49:19.970
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:49:21.755 --> 00:49:22.135
Carol: Oh my.

00:49:24.105 --> 00:49:27.215
I suppose other people would
find this really weird.

00:49:28.285 --> 00:49:31.635
I wear some very special contact lenses.

00:49:32.530 --> 00:49:32.720
Michael: Okay.

00:49:32.725 --> 00:49:36.315
Carol: And at any time, if
something's in my contact, I have

00:49:36.315 --> 00:49:38.005
to be able to get it, my lenses out.

00:49:38.395 --> 00:49:45.205
So I have a plunger thing that I carry
all, I mean, whatever the purse, whatever

00:49:45.205 --> 00:49:49.295
the, I always have it with me just in
case because it's the only way to easily

00:49:49.295 --> 00:49:51.055
get the contact lens out of my eye.

00:49:51.245 --> 00:49:55.385
So, some people would be like,
"What is this little tiny plunger?"

00:49:55.505 --> 00:49:57.455
But it's very important to me.

00:49:59.010 --> 00:50:00.550
Michael: Yes, I can imagine,
I can imagine as someone who

00:50:00.660 --> 00:50:02.610
wears contacts, I, I get that.

00:50:02.650 --> 00:50:05.370
I have never seen a, a plunger
for contacts, although…

00:50:06.835 --> 00:50:09.095
Alright, Carol, this was great.

00:50:09.095 --> 00:50:12.585
Before we wrap up, I want to make sure
people know where they can go next if

00:50:12.585 --> 00:50:14.195
this conversation resonated with them.

00:50:14.195 --> 00:50:14.670
If someone's listening

00:50:14.720 --> 00:50:15.200
Carol: Yeah.

00:50:15.475 --> 00:50:18.275
Michael: And thinking like,
"That is exactly me, like

00:50:18.275 --> 00:50:19.255
that's the tension I'm feeling,"

00:50:19.935 --> 00:50:20.255
Carol: where

00:50:20.255 --> 00:50:21.715
Michael: would you, what would
you like them to check out?

00:50:21.715 --> 00:50:22.185
Where should they go?

00:50:22.830 --> 00:50:24.910
Carol: Well, I think the
best place is my website.

00:50:24.910 --> 00:50:26.430
It's just my name, CarolEnneking.com.

00:50:28.340 --> 00:50:29.950
You can buy my book from there.

00:50:29.950 --> 00:50:32.430
Well, you can buy my book
anywhere you buy books, but

00:50:32.710 --> 00:50:34.100
reading the book would be great.

00:50:34.730 --> 00:50:38.270
Men did interview for my book,
even though it says women on the

00:50:38.270 --> 00:50:43.300
book, it, it is for men too, and
I've been pleased with the response

00:50:43.300 --> 00:50:44.710
I've gotten from men on that book.

00:50:45.850 --> 00:50:47.380
So my website has resources.

00:50:47.380 --> 00:50:52.710
I have a legacy blueprint workbook
that you can download, and it'll help

00:50:52.710 --> 00:50:57.490
you ask those questions and think
through that perspective-changing

00:50:57.490 --> 00:50:59.190
exercise that we talked about.

00:50:59.890 --> 00:51:02.320
So that's a resource available
to them, and then they can

00:51:02.320 --> 00:51:03.630
subscribe to my newsletter.

00:51:03.630 --> 00:51:05.860
I give weekly rebalancing tips.

00:51:06.220 --> 00:51:07.400
It's not a sales message.

00:51:07.400 --> 00:51:11.010
It's just something to help you keep
it front of mind and your awareness.

00:51:11.010 --> 00:51:13.630
And then I'm also happy to talk to
anybody one-on-one if they want to

00:51:13.630 --> 00:51:17.890
talk about how to make a move when
they know things are out of alignment.

00:51:17.920 --> 00:51:20.510
I do a lot of coaching work in that realm.

00:51:20.710 --> 00:51:21.820
So that's it.

00:51:22.735 --> 00:51:22.795
Michael: Awesome.

00:51:22.795 --> 00:51:23.005
That's great.

00:51:23.005 --> 00:51:23.155
Carol: And the

00:51:23.155 --> 00:51:24.790
Michael: name of the book is "The
Rebalancing Act," if I remember correctly?

00:51:24.840 --> 00:51:28.020
Carol: "The Rebalancing Act," and then
the subtitle is "Wisdom from Working

00:51:28.020 --> 00:51:29.830
Women for Success That Matters."

00:51:30.440 --> 00:51:33.780
But like I said, I interviewed men
about the women in their lives,

00:51:33.840 --> 00:51:38.080
but I also believe a lot of it
applies to men as well, so…

00:51:38.185 --> 00:51:38.865
Michael: Absolutely.

00:51:39.165 --> 00:51:39.465
Absolutely.

00:51:39.475 --> 00:51:41.675
And we'll have links to, to
everything in the show notes.

00:51:42.505 --> 00:51:44.725
Carol, thank you so much
for this conversation.

00:51:45.260 --> 00:51:50.348
I appreciate, like, how you challenge
the idea of balance without necessarily,

00:51:50.348 --> 00:51:54.878
like, without shaming ambition or drive
or any of those personal kind of things.

00:51:56.178 --> 00:51:59.928
Your work, to me, gives people
permission to pursue success,

00:52:00.283 --> 00:52:00.553
Carol: Yeah.

00:52:00.628 --> 00:52:03.138
Michael: but in a way that actually
supports their lives, right?

00:52:03.333 --> 00:52:03.673
Carol: Yeah.

00:52:04.258 --> 00:52:05.518
Michael: And so thank you for
bringing that perspective.

00:52:05.518 --> 00:52:06.398
I appreciate it.

00:52:06.468 --> 00:52:08.928
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:52:08.928 --> 00:52:12.418
find yourself in between navigating
a season that feels difficult,

00:52:13.338 --> 00:52:16.038
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:52:16.238 --> 00:52:19.508
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:52:19.548 --> 00:52:20.828
and what really matters right now.

00:52:20.828 --> 00:52:23.598
And this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:52:23.598 --> 00:52:24.658
dad who might need to hear it.

00:52:25.128 --> 00:52:26.668
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:52:26.858 --> 00:52:28.678
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.