Andrew Poles on Dad Identity, Ambition, and the Pressure to Succeed

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Andrew: When you're being driven to
have to be some way in order to prove

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something or disprove something about
yourself, there is no freedom to explore.

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Michael: Right.

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Andrew: There's no freedom to explore
the question, what do I really want?

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Because you have to get the answer
right, and you have to make sure it

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fits into this pattern of how you
get value as a man in the world and

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all of this stuff which is all crap.

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It's just all crap.

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Michael: Yep.

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Andrew: Because you
have a compass built in.

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It's built in.

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It comes with the hardware

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Michael: Yeah.

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Andrew: that points you in the direction
to your answer to this question of what is

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meaningful to me, what is important to me?

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And yes, to access it, you have to give
yourself permission to let go of all

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these pictures you have of how you're
supposed to be, so you can get connected

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to what gives you joy, what gives you
inspiration, what gives you true desire.

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Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for
dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today's guest is Andrew Poles.

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Michael: Andrew knows what it feels
like to carry everything at once.

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He started his first business at 23 as a
single dad, working 70- to 80-hour weeks

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just to keep things alive, all while
trying to be present for his daughter.

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Over time, he built and led
multiple businesses, coached more

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than 10,000 founders and leaders,
and worked with teams at places

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like NASA, Dell, and Netflix.

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But what makes Andrew's perspective
different is this: He learned

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the hard way that grinding harder
doesn't actually solve the problem.

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Learning how to lead does.

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Today, he helps founders make the shift
from doing everything themselves to

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building businesses that grow through
people without burning out in the process.

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Andrew, I'm really
excited to chat with you.

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Welcome to the show.

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Glad you're here today.

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Andrew: Thank you for having me.

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It's a pleasure to be
here with you, Michael.

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Michael: Appreciate that.

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Thank you.

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So I want to start back at the
beginning because your story as

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a single dad building your first
business feels like the foundation

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for everything that came after.

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Take me back to 23, if you can, and
starting your first business as a single

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dad, what did trying to make it work
actually look like day-to-day for you?

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Andrew: Well, you know, I, I started that
first business because I was in a, I was

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in a PhD program at University of Texas
at Austin, where I live now in Austin,

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when I found out I was gonna become a dad.

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And that was unplanned, and it
was coming into my life through a

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relationship that wasn't going well.

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So I was living with my girlfriend
at the time, trying to be a stepdad.

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And she had a daughter from a previous
marriage, and I really loved, loved

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her, but I was lying to her and lying
to myself that I was ready to be a dad.

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And I was afraid to tell the
truth 'cause I thought it

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would cost me the relationship,
which obviously it would have.

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And so a lot of the trouble we
had, not all of it, came from that.

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You know, so that's kind
of where I was in life.

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That's, that's as much authenticity as
I had, that's as much self-honesty as I

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had at that time of my life when I found
out that I was gonna become a dad, and

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it was never part of my plan to be a dad.

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So I didn't have life set up for that.

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I was in graduate school.

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I was working two jobs.

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I had my teaching job, and then I had a
carpentry job on the side where I made

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some, some money just to make ends meet.

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And so when I found out I was gonna
be a dad, I asked my boss at my side

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hustle, I'm like, "Hey, if I come
to work for you full time, you know,

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can I bring my daughter to work?"

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'Cause I'm trying to figure out, how
am I going to see this child since I'm

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not gonna be in a, in a relationship
with her mom, and she's gonna be

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breastfeeding and, you know, I'm gonna
have her just whenever her mom can

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kinda, like, need me to gr-, to take her.

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How am I gonna ever gonna see her
in her first couple years of life?

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Michael: Right.

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Andrew: And so my boss said,
"Absolutely not. You cannot bring her

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here." And so I'm like, okay, there's
no jobs in philosophy in Austin.

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I can't, I'm like, how am I gonna do this?

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That's why I started my own business in
large part, was because I thought if I

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had my own business, then no one could
tell me, "You can't bring her to work."

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Michael: Right.

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Andrew: And so what it looked like
was I had her strapped onto me some

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of the time when I was at work.

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And, so, my company at
that time was in retail.

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And my business partner and I had
built and sold both solid g-, wood

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case goods, and also we, I did custom
design work as well for our company,

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so we had this line of furniture.

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But I did custom work.

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So I designed that.

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So I would go into the, into the, I
would get, you know, be up with my

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daughter in the morning, and then
either r-, bring her with me to

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work or take her back to her mom's.

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And I would go into my store.

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I would open it up.

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I'd be in there for eight or nine hours
on the retail floor selling furniture.

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And then if I didn't have my daughter
after work, I would shut down the retail

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shop, I would go into the wood shop,
and I'd be building, you know, furniture

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with my business partner into the night.

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And then I would go home and eat
something and go to bed and do

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the whole thing all over again.

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And eventually I found someone to work
the weekends for me, where when I had

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my daughter for like an overnight and
I could have her for a whole day, I

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could have someone else watch the store
every once in a while so that I wouldn't

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have to just make my daughter sit
through eight hours of retail when she

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was one or two, which you know, there
was not enough to entertain her there.

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Michael: Right.

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Andrew: And I just kind of made it work
that way for about five or six years.

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Michael: Oh, wow.

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Andrew: And then when my daughter
got to be that age, it just

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struck me, I am struggling so
hard to make this business work.

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And the truth is, is that I
don't even want this business.

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I didn't love the business.

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I didn't love the work.

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It was just the one thing that I knew how
to make money with when I was in school.

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Michael: Right.

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Andrew: And so I shut down the
business and went and got a job.

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Once my daughter and I was in,
you know, kindergarten and she

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could go to school during the day
and I could have a regular job.

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But that's how it started.

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That was the first five years of her life.

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So from about 24 to 29,
that's what life looked like.

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Michael: Wow.

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That's gotta be very
challenging experience.

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Fulfilling, I'm sure, but also the
challenge of how do you sustain that

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day to day of, you know, you're, you've
got these two important things to

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Andrew: Yeah

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Michael: you.

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Obviously, your daughter
being the, the probably the

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singular most important thing.

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And then, but you also have to support
her, support yourself, and so you need to,

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Andrew: Yeah, right.

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Michael: to work.

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And, so, that must have been a,
a challenge to just kind of also

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remember yourself too, right?

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Like, 'cause at some point you
have to take care of yourself.

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And even when you didn't have your
daughter and the shop was closed,

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you said you were, you know,
building, designing more furniture.

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So it's like it was almost nonstop.

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Where do you think in that period of
time, that season of life, where do you

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think you were getting it right, and
where do you think you were realizing

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that maybe this wasn't, you know,
maybe you're digging yourself into a

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hole that you don't want to get into?

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Andrew: I think one of the things
that I was getting right at that

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time was I was very thoughtful
about how I wanted to parent.

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I, I was very scared of parenting an
infant, and that was very stressful

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for me because I, although I had a lot
of experience with young children, I

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had zero experience with infants, and,
so, the early years of her life scared

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me, so I started studying, actually.

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And that's what I knew how;
I was a student, right?

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That's what I knew how to do.

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So I, I actually took some early childhood
development classes at UT as while I was

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in my other courses, and I read books
about how do you deal with those stages

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in life where children are pushing the
boundaries of their own power versus your

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attempts to exercise, you know, control.

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And I don't mean that in a bad way, but
to prevent them from, you know, hurting

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themselves and all that kind of stuff.

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So I think one of the things I got
right was I was just really thoughtful

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about how I wanted to parent.

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And I did my best to, to be
the kind of dad I wanted to be.

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But what undermined that to a large
extent was, and this is one of the

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things that I, I don't know that I'd
said I got it wrong, but it's one of

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those things I would look back on now
and say, "Okay, I learned that lesson."

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At the time, I needed to go through that
to be able to be the person I became

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today, so I don't… I, I wouldn't
change it if I could go back, 'cause

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I don't know how that would play out.

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And I really am grateful for having
gone through that difficult time.

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But I, it, it… So with that caveat,
one of the things I quote, "got

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wrong," that it was all driven by fear.

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You know, I was afraid, I was more afraid
to fail as a father and to provide for

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my family than I was inspired to build
something meaningful for my family.

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And the fear won.

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And as a function of the fear
winning, you know, it was making a

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lot of my decisions for me about what
to say yes to, what to say no to.

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It, it, it made it difficult for me
to be present with my daughter when I

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did have her 'cause I was so afraid of
that kind of scepter hanging over my

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shoulder of, "Okay, you're gonna fail.

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You're gonna fail.

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You need to get back into the store.

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You know, you need to go and
make sure that the sales are

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happening," that kind of thing.

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I, I would leave family vacations
sometimes when there was a cash

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crisis, and I would leave my
daughter with my parents and my

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fiancée and fly back by myself to
go rescue the business, you know?

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And I missed out on really important
family time, and the f-, it was all

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about the fear that was driving me.

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Again, a fear not to fail.

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And underneath that fear was an
unresolved relationship or belief

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I had about myself, you know, that
that I was gonna screw something up.

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It was all gonna be my fault.

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You know, that kind of, that loop that,
that ran in the background for me.

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So that would be the biggest thing I
think I got wrong was, and again, I,

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I wouldn't really call it that, but
to use your framing, the thing that I

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hadn't learned yet at the age of 23, 24,
25, 29, 35, maybe even 40 was the lie

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contained in the fear and how damaging
it is to use that as a source of fuel.

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Michael: So profound that I think
a lot of dads, I know for, for sure

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myself, have been driven by fear, right?

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Andrew: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: It is so easy t-, for fear
to take control of the situation.

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But something you said that stood
out to me was you didn't know

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until you experienced it, right?

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Andrew: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: Like, you had
to live it to know that.

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And it is so, it's easier to, what, what'd
they say, like 20/20, hindsight is 20/20.

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Like, you can get perfect vision looking
back and like, yes, I can look back

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at like how I was in my 20s and like
what I could have done differently.

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It's very easy now than it was then of
like, what, you know, in the moment,

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how do you, you know, not get driven
by fear and instead driven by the

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things that, that really matter to you.

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Andrew: Right.

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Michael: And I appreciate how you
are so straightforward about, yeah,

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could I have done things differently?

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Did fear make some decisions for me?

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Did it, you know, do I
regret certain decisions?

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Sure, but that was, you don't know
those things until you experience them.

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And y-, you still look forward, you still,
you know, after that stage of your life,

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you've built, and we'll get into some
of that as, of like what you've built.

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You've built a lot, and
you've had a lot of success.

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Even still, like, as you get older, like
myself in my 40s, I'm sure fear still

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dictates some of the decisions I make.

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It, it's really difficult
to shake that, right?

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And I think that,

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Andrew: Yeah

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Michael: you know, for you,
some of that fear was like,

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you felt like you had to grind.

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You had to work in that mo-,
and the way you knew how to work

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was to do this retail business.

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And I think a lot of dads,
whether it's a retail job or

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it's just the job that they have

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with an employer or whatever it may
be, or maybe it's their own business

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that they're running, they feel that
that grind is still necessary, right?

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Andrew: Yeah

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Michael: And it's difficult to break
through why that grind is necessary.

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I'm curious, like, how do you help someone
tell the difference between a season of

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hard work, 'cause there are times where
we're just gonna have to, you know, put

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our hands down and just be like, "This is
what I need to do," and a pattern that's

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kind of costing them more than it's worth?

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Andrew: So, I, my approach to this
challenge is to look at it through two or

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three distinct lenses that I think all, or
if not lenses, two, two or three different

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maybe like levers you can pull on to try
to pull apart the challenge that it is.

00:12:23.208 --> 00:12:27.798
So one layer or level of the challenge
of overworking or of grinding, and maybe

00:12:27.798 --> 00:12:29.278
it isn't overworking, but it is grinding.

00:12:29.278 --> 00:12:31.708
In other words, you're working r-,
a lot of hours and maybe more than

00:12:31.708 --> 00:12:37.638
you would like to, ideally, is to
get at the emotional drivers of

00:12:37.638 --> 00:12:39.708
that, wherever those are at play.

00:12:40.148 --> 00:12:43.598
And they're almost certainly at play
with people because no one g-, gets

00:12:43.618 --> 00:12:47.668
through their childhood unscathed
by these kinds of adaptations we

00:12:47.668 --> 00:12:50.228
come up with to be successful in the
world that come with a huge cost.

00:12:50.228 --> 00:12:53.708
Like, no one gets away without that,
no matter how great your parents were

00:12:54.018 --> 00:12:57.808
or no matter how horrible your parents
were, if you wanna say it that way.

00:12:58.418 --> 00:13:02.288
I can say this from experience, I mean,
I, having worked with so many people

00:13:02.288 --> 00:13:06.408
and knowing s-, some who had just
great parents, it's just part of the

00:13:06.408 --> 00:13:09.948
human condition that you come through
childhood and adolescence and early

00:13:09.948 --> 00:13:15.038
adulthood with these malad-, these adapt-,
adaptations, these compensations, right?

00:13:15.038 --> 00:13:17.408
In my case, being super,
my case was hypervigilance.

00:13:17.408 --> 00:13:20.018
It's this sense that, you know, the,
the other shoe's gonna drop at any

00:13:20.018 --> 00:13:22.148
minute, I'm gonna lose something,
and I'm never gonna get it back.

00:13:24.428 --> 00:13:29.138
So there's gonna be some amount of
emotional and cognitive looping that

00:13:29.138 --> 00:13:33.108
is driving this behavior that you
wanna get at, and that is gotten

00:13:33.248 --> 00:13:36.328
at, for the, for most people,
through some kind of modality.

00:13:36.458 --> 00:13:40.568
And that modality might be therapy
or coaching, or it could be plant

00:13:40.568 --> 00:13:42.658
medicine or something like that.

00:13:42.658 --> 00:13:46.898
But it, it, you're gonna need something
to help you see your own eyeballs,

00:13:46.908 --> 00:13:48.788
and it's very challenging to do that.

00:13:49.024 --> 00:13:49.254
Michael: Right.

00:13:49.998 --> 00:13:51.118
Andrew: So that's a piece of it.

00:13:51.158 --> 00:13:55.308
When you've dismantled that piece, when
you've gotten unhooked from the drive

00:13:55.318 --> 00:14:00.008
that that piece is, then you can look
into the situation and situationally

00:14:00.018 --> 00:14:05.478
begin to assess with more clarity,
"Hey, like, in order to make this

00:14:05.498 --> 00:14:10.288
thing that I've invested myself in
work, what is that going to take?" And

00:14:10.568 --> 00:14:13.648
with businesses, if you are a business
leader, this is a slightly different

00:14:13.648 --> 00:14:17.178
equation than if you are an employee
of someone else's business, even if

00:14:17.188 --> 00:14:18.438
you're in a position of leadership.

00:14:18.798 --> 00:14:21.138
So i-, in other words, not a business
leader, but a business owner.

00:14:21.138 --> 00:14:23.688
If you have your own business,
this is a slightly different

00:14:23.688 --> 00:14:27.198
equation, especially if it's new,
than if you work for an established

00:14:27.198 --> 00:14:28.498
business owned by someone else.

00:14:28.928 --> 00:14:31.798
So you have to be able to look into
the circumstances and say, "What does

00:14:31.818 --> 00:14:38.112
success in this role really require?" And
sometimes that does include some seasons

00:14:38.112 --> 00:14:40.622
of working really hard and long hours.

00:14:40.652 --> 00:14:45.992
For example, many of my clients are
first-time founders of Silicon Valley

00:14:46.002 --> 00:14:50.382
style startups, where money is being
invested either by the founders

00:14:50.402 --> 00:14:53.692
and/or friends and family or angels
in the beginning, and then eventually

00:14:53.692 --> 00:14:55.932
maybe even institutional capital.

00:14:56.592 --> 00:15:02.622
So the game of that kind of business is
to make as much progress as you possibly

00:15:02.622 --> 00:15:07.432
can with a product or service that you
don't even know out of the gate whether

00:15:07.432 --> 00:15:10.492
the one you're envisioning is going
to be the one the market responds to.

00:15:10.492 --> 00:15:13.532
So there's a lot of learning,
a lot of iterating that has to

00:15:13.532 --> 00:15:16.572
happen quickly for the least
amount of money as you can spend.

00:15:16.624 --> 00:15:16.954
Michael: Right.

00:15:17.052 --> 00:15:19.472
Andrew: And that just winds up
coming out of people's time.

00:15:19.472 --> 00:15:21.132
I mean, that's just part of the deal.

00:15:21.132 --> 00:15:24.702
To make that equation work,
you have to work a lot.

00:15:25.392 --> 00:15:27.312
So sometimes it's circumstantial.

00:15:27.972 --> 00:15:31.212
But even then, there's
this other component.

00:15:31.222 --> 00:15:33.462
So you take the fear out of it and you
have the circumstantial component, and

00:15:33.472 --> 00:15:38.042
the third piece of this is, and that's
why I said like two or three lenses, most

00:15:38.102 --> 00:15:46.972
people are insufficiently strategic about
how they allocate time and manage time.

00:15:47.512 --> 00:15:52.392
And to be a little bit more specific
about that, just if you think about

00:15:52.532 --> 00:15:57.512
your life and all of the parts of
your life like a project, like a

00:15:57.512 --> 00:16:00.112
project like, say, building a house.

00:16:01.882 --> 00:16:06.382
So I used to be a general contractor
at one point in my life, and I built

00:16:07.202 --> 00:16:11.802
really kind of high-end custom homes,
so every time was different, and

00:16:11.972 --> 00:16:17.292
super high expectations and lots
of very entitled people involved in

00:16:17.342 --> 00:16:19.012
like, you know, difficult situations.

00:16:22.182 --> 00:16:26.192
And in order to do that well, I
had to build the whole house in

00:16:26.192 --> 00:16:30.712
my mind before I took any actions
to start building the house.

00:16:30.732 --> 00:16:35.152
And then I had to build it backwards
from, okay, if I'm promising to deliver

00:16:35.152 --> 00:16:39.692
the house on this day, then I have to
have the final inspection by this day.

00:16:40.182 --> 00:16:42.422
And to get the final inspection
by this day, I need these things

00:16:42.422 --> 00:16:44.652
in by this day, and I have to
build out a schedule backwards.

00:16:44.662 --> 00:16:47.942
So I'd have to think from the endpoint
where I wanted to land, and then I'd

00:16:47.942 --> 00:16:50.552
have to plan it backwards to the present
moment and say, "Okay, here's how I'm

00:16:50.552 --> 00:16:55.072
gonna get there." People really need
to be that thoughtful about their time

00:16:57.090 --> 00:16:58.950
And they almost never are.

00:16:59.680 --> 00:17:03.130
And so they take the opposite approach,
which is they jump into the present

00:17:03.130 --> 00:17:06.760
moment to try to get as much done as
they can with whatever they can get

00:17:06.760 --> 00:17:11.970
their arms around with very little
thinking, very little strategy involved

00:17:11.970 --> 00:17:13.540
in how they're allocating that time.

00:17:13.860 --> 00:17:20.000
And that almost always leads to
unnecessary overworking and this

00:17:20.000 --> 00:17:23.470
lingering sense that no matter how much
you got done, you never got enough done.

00:17:23.716 --> 00:17:24.036
Michael: Right

00:17:24.720 --> 00:17:26.200
Andrew: So that's the third piece.

00:17:26.210 --> 00:17:29.250
So just to review and kind of wrap it all
up, 'cause I know that was long-winded.

00:17:29.690 --> 00:17:32.570
There's almost always an emotional
piece you gotta deal with so that

00:17:32.570 --> 00:17:33.730
you can see and think clearly.

00:17:33.750 --> 00:17:36.580
Then you have to look into your
situation and see what does it require.

00:17:37.380 --> 00:17:40.160
And inside of that, you may have to make
certain balances or compromises or get

00:17:40.160 --> 00:17:43.380
creative so that you can spread your
time out with your family and your health

00:17:43.390 --> 00:17:44.730
and your business and all those things.

00:17:44.730 --> 00:17:48.720
But then thirdly, you wanna learn how
to be masterful with time, and that's

00:17:48.720 --> 00:17:52.450
a skill set most people don't have, and
it's one you can easily acquire through

00:17:52.450 --> 00:17:53.950
lots of different kinds of courses.

00:17:54.200 --> 00:17:58.560
And then you can really get yourself
to a place where you can say, "Even

00:17:58.560 --> 00:18:01.520
though there's way more to do than
I have time to do every single day

00:18:01.520 --> 00:18:06.260
of my life, I'm gonna say because of
the strategy I'm, I'm following here,

00:18:06.260 --> 00:18:09.800
that when I get to this point, that's
done for today, and that is 100% done.

00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:10.410
It's complete.

00:18:10.420 --> 00:18:11.190
This day is good.

00:18:11.390 --> 00:18:14.580
I can move on with no guilt, no
worry, because everything else I

00:18:14.580 --> 00:18:17.950
gotta get done has a time somewhere
in the future where I'm gonna do it

00:18:17.960 --> 00:18:22.710
as well." And that's a huge tactical
piece of this question you're asking.

00:18:23.308 --> 00:18:23.878
Michael: Right, yeah, absolutely.

00:18:24.218 --> 00:18:32.898
It's interesting 'cause obviously it's
difficult to make the wisest decisions

00:18:32.928 --> 00:18:34.128
when emotions are involved, right?

00:18:34.128 --> 00:18:37.968
So like you said, you gotta strip
out the emotion of it, 'cause

00:18:38.128 --> 00:18:41.018
naturally we're human, so we're
gonna have emotions about it, right?

00:18:41.068 --> 00:18:43.898
Positive, negative, you know, we might
be super excited about this thing

00:18:43.898 --> 00:18:48.568
we're starting, right, but then, so
we dive head, you know, head on into

00:18:48.568 --> 00:18:52.728
it and then realize, "Wait, it's not
exactly what I wanted to do. I wanna do

00:18:52.728 --> 00:18:54.918
something else." And then you jump to
another way and just you kind of just,

00:18:54.918 --> 00:18:58.068
you're letting your emotions kind of
dictate which direction you go, which

00:18:58.078 --> 00:19:00.698
is not necessarily the most productive.

00:19:01.138 --> 00:19:06.108
But the other end of that spectrum,
it's like, okay, when you strip out

00:19:06.108 --> 00:19:09.828
the emotion, you can recognize that
time is a finite resource, right?

00:19:09.828 --> 00:19:15.418
We, as far as we know, we have one
life to live, and we only have so many

00:19:15.418 --> 00:19:18.398
hours in the day, so many days in the
year, and so many years in our lives.

00:19:18.408 --> 00:19:24.488
So how do we best, or most
effectively, use that time?

00:19:24.668 --> 00:19:27.938
And that may mean that, like, you
have to hand stuff off to others.

00:19:28.018 --> 00:19:29.708
That may, you might need
to automate something.

00:19:29.708 --> 00:19:31.478
You might need to rely
on somebody else to get

00:19:31.688 --> 00:19:32.128
Andrew: Yep, yeah.

00:19:32.858 --> 00:19:37.948
Michael: Some step of that down, but
that's hard to do, especially when you are

00:19:37.948 --> 00:19:39.358
thinking to yourself as a leader, right?

00:19:39.378 --> 00:19:43.608
Of like, "Okay, I am building
houses." Like I should, you

00:19:43.608 --> 00:19:44.788
know, this is my project.

00:19:44.788 --> 00:19:45.728
This is my thing.

00:19:45.728 --> 00:19:49.848
Like, I expect this to get done to
my standard, so I know what that is,

00:19:49.858 --> 00:19:51.038
so I'm the one that has to do it.

00:19:51.888 --> 00:19:56.068
And so I think a lot of guys, like
they, they tie their value to being

00:19:56.068 --> 00:19:57.628
the one who gets it done, right?

00:19:57.628 --> 00:19:57.948
Because it's

00:19:58.190 --> 00:19:58.490
Andrew: Yes.

00:19:58.880 --> 00:19:59.190
Yes.

00:19:59.258 --> 00:19:59.318
Michael: their thing.

00:19:59.880 --> 00:20:00.190
Andrew: Yes.

00:20:00.488 --> 00:20:05.348
Michael: And they're, it becomes part of
their identity of like, "I have to get

00:20:05.348 --> 00:20:07.498
this done. Like, that is who I am." But

00:20:07.506 --> 00:20:08.026
Andrew: Well said.

00:20:08.348 --> 00:20:12.158
Michael: you, like, I think from
what you're saying is that you

00:20:12.188 --> 00:20:13.528
have to unwind all of that, right?

00:20:13.528 --> 00:20:18.508
You have to take away, you have to kind
of pull apart the s-, the different

00:20:18.518 --> 00:20:23.048
threads that what you think make up your
identity of like, this is my project,

00:20:23.048 --> 00:20:27.718
this is what I need to get done, and say,
"Okay, what is actually important to me?"

00:20:27.868 --> 00:20:29.038
And that is my time.

00:20:29.148 --> 00:20:31.668
That is the people around me that are
most important to me, my family, my

00:20:31.668 --> 00:20:35.078
friends, whatever it may be, whatever
else it is important to you, whatever

00:20:35.078 --> 00:20:40.928
causes, whatever it is that, that
makes you feel good and feel like

00:20:40.928 --> 00:20:42.348
you're living a life that you want.

00:20:43.398 --> 00:20:46.588
But the trick is figuring out how
do you unwind that without feeling

00:20:46.588 --> 00:20:47.818
like you're letting people down.

00:20:47.818 --> 00:20:52.488
So I'm curious, like how do you start
to unwind your identity when it's so

00:20:52.488 --> 00:20:56.558
wrapped up in what you're trying to
accomplish or, or getting things done?

00:20:56.698 --> 00:20:58.978
How do you unwind that so
you're not letting people down,

00:20:58.988 --> 00:20:59.918
not letting yourself down?

00:21:00.526 --> 00:21:01.456
Andrew: Great question.

00:21:01.546 --> 00:21:02.686
Really, I love this question.

00:21:02.686 --> 00:21:08.026
So, since this is a show that, you
know, really is primarily pointed

00:21:08.026 --> 00:21:11.396
at dads, I'm gonna lean on that a
little bit for my answer to this.

00:21:13.866 --> 00:21:21.176
So I cannot emphasize enough what
a difficult moment in the history

00:21:21.206 --> 00:21:23.466
of s-, of humanity this is for men.

00:21:25.246 --> 00:21:31.466
Because if you think about the way
gender roles have played out over

00:21:31.466 --> 00:21:37.116
time, even in the way that our brains
and our eyes between men and women

00:21:37.356 --> 00:21:42.676
have evolved differently, men, for
example, better able to detect motion,

00:21:43.116 --> 00:21:46.126
women with more color perception.

00:21:46.126 --> 00:21:50.526
So in terms of hunting versus
gathering, men's bodies are designed

00:21:50.576 --> 00:21:54.736
to be better at detecting motion,
you know, explosive power, things

00:21:54.736 --> 00:21:56.706
like that for hunting and protecting.

00:21:57.136 --> 00:22:00.086
Women's eyes for discerning
this is poisonous, this is

00:22:00.086 --> 00:22:01.206
not poisonous, you know?

00:22:01.576 --> 00:22:04.886
And so they're just, over the course
of human history, there have been these

00:22:04.886 --> 00:22:09.106
gender roles that we've played, and for
a large part, especially in the last 100

00:22:09.106 --> 00:22:14.286
and 200, couple hundred years or whatever
in the West, m-, well, beyond that even.

00:22:14.286 --> 00:22:19.496
But it's like from, from indu-, industrial
times forward, man's role was to go

00:22:19.496 --> 00:22:21.546
out and provide for their family.

00:22:21.546 --> 00:22:26.626
So our social sense of identity and
value, and that's the key thing, our

00:22:26.736 --> 00:22:32.016
social sense of value was tied to
our ability to provide and protect,

00:22:34.056 --> 00:22:39.156
but if you look right now in
history, men are le-, needed

00:22:39.216 --> 00:22:44.266
least right now for providing and
protecting than they have ever been.

00:22:46.834 --> 00:22:52.584
And so women don't need men to provide and
protect them the way that they used to.

00:22:52.684 --> 00:22:57.244
Women can go out and provide for
themselves if that's what they wanna do.

00:22:57.294 --> 00:22:57.574
Michael: Right.

00:22:58.674 --> 00:23:03.884
Andrew: And so this is a bit of an i-,
an identity crisis for men because it's

00:23:03.884 --> 00:23:09.844
unclear, I think, for many, especially
young men today, like, "What is my value?

00:23:10.944 --> 00:23:14.524
If this, if this, if I'm heterosexual
and a man and, and I'm looking at

00:23:14.524 --> 00:23:17.524
relationships with women, and I'm like,
'If this woman doesn't need me to protect

00:23:17.534 --> 00:23:22.954
her or provide for her, like, what is my
role? What is my social value?'" Right?

00:23:22.954 --> 00:23:26.064
So that, that is a, an
important caveat of this.

00:23:26.244 --> 00:23:27.914
But I wanna go a level deeper than that.

00:23:27.914 --> 00:23:30.554
I just wanna pinpoint that 'cause
I think some men may actually

00:23:30.564 --> 00:23:34.024
resonate with that idea and, and
find themselves in that question

00:23:34.024 --> 00:23:35.624
without having a great answer for it.

00:23:35.624 --> 00:23:37.124
But that's why I wanna
go one level deeper.

00:23:37.724 --> 00:23:41.864
One level deeper, for you dads out
there, and then for any non-dads

00:23:41.944 --> 00:23:44.314
who are listening to this, you, you
can relate to this in whatever way.

00:23:44.334 --> 00:23:46.014
You know, if you, maybe you're
a mom or maybe you're a man who

00:23:46.014 --> 00:23:48.804
doesn't yet have children or
whatever role you find yourself in.

00:23:48.874 --> 00:23:54.254
Find yourself in what I'm saying through
whatever you can analogize through, maybe

00:23:54.254 --> 00:23:56.184
a sibling or who has children or whatever.

00:23:56.614 --> 00:24:01.134
But when you have kids, and you watch
your kids in the world in their first

00:24:01.134 --> 00:24:07.124
five, six years of life, what you
see is that it's the Garden of Eden

00:24:09.832 --> 00:24:12.952
They're just in life for themselves.

00:24:12.962 --> 00:24:14.962
They're not good kids or bad kids.

00:24:16.936 --> 00:24:17.346
You know?

00:24:17.346 --> 00:24:19.446
They don't have to be
this way or that way.

00:24:20.146 --> 00:24:25.966
They can wanna be, they can wanna be
a doctor one day, and they can wanna

00:24:25.976 --> 00:24:33.126
be, you know, maybe, maybe their mom
is a, a CEO, so they wanna be like Mom.

00:24:33.126 --> 00:24:36.736
They wanna be a CEO, and they walk around
in Mom's high heels saying, you know,

00:24:36.916 --> 00:24:39.856
"You do this, and you do this," 'cause
that's what they see Mom doing at work.

00:24:39.856 --> 00:24:41.206
And then, you know, like whatever.

00:24:41.206 --> 00:24:45.876
Like, there's literally no sense
of anything being good or bad,

00:24:45.876 --> 00:24:47.536
right or wrong about themselves.

00:24:47.986 --> 00:24:52.886
And then if you watch, that will change
as they go from five, usually five, six,

00:24:52.886 --> 00:24:56.976
seven, eight, somewhere around there,
they start to get this sense that they're

00:24:56.976 --> 00:25:03.286
good or they're bad, and they start
to adapt their personalities to try to

00:25:03.396 --> 00:25:05.386
be the way they think they need to be.

00:25:06.646 --> 00:25:11.666
So for your question about how do you
unravel, how do you untangle this?

00:25:13.446 --> 00:25:17.006
Whatever way you get there, whether it's
through coaching or through therapy or

00:25:17.016 --> 00:25:21.206
through plant medicine or through studying
or through listening to podcasts, at

00:25:21.206 --> 00:25:27.756
some point what you have to do is walk
back to your own experience of yourself

00:25:28.976 --> 00:25:33.036
at a time in life when you were still
in that Garden of Eden, so to speak.

00:25:33.096 --> 00:25:35.606
If you just watch children,
I mean, that's the way it is.

00:25:35.606 --> 00:25:39.546
Like, they're just, like, in life, and
they're just, they're just super happy

00:25:39.886 --> 00:25:43.126
until they start to get this sense of
what, what it is to be a good person or

00:25:43.126 --> 00:25:46.066
a bad person and doing right and wrong,
and then they start tweaking themselves,

00:25:46.066 --> 00:25:48.076
and they leave that experience of grace.

00:25:48.546 --> 00:25:54.496
So, in my way of thinking about this,
we have to do as men is we have to

00:25:54.496 --> 00:26:02.536
actually find a way to reconnect with
an experience of ourself the same way

00:26:02.536 --> 00:26:08.656
we experience our children when we
first meet them in this world, that

00:26:08.656 --> 00:26:10.706
there is nothing good or bad about them.

00:26:10.976 --> 00:26:12.756
There is nothing right
or wrong about them.

00:26:12.766 --> 00:26:15.006
They are just fricking perfect.

00:26:15.306 --> 00:26:21.346
They are just a perfect being, and there
is nothing they could ever do that will

00:26:21.346 --> 00:26:23.946
ever change you seeing them that way.

00:26:24.036 --> 00:26:26.036
Now, you might not like their choices.

00:26:26.286 --> 00:26:29.016
You might, you know, punish
them for some of their choices.

00:26:29.196 --> 00:26:31.606
You might wanna try to shape
how they're living their life.

00:26:31.936 --> 00:26:34.666
You might be upset with some of the
choices they make and all these things.

00:26:34.936 --> 00:26:39.306
But at the heart of who they are, they
will always be that perfect soul for you.

00:26:39.886 --> 00:26:44.696
And so that love between a parent and
a child that the child gets born into,

00:26:44.746 --> 00:26:50.416
ideally, is something that we all have to
learn as adults to provide for ourselves.

00:26:50.476 --> 00:26:53.716
So it was provided for us,
hopefully, hopefully by our

00:26:53.716 --> 00:26:55.086
parents and our home of origin.

00:26:55.520 --> 00:26:57.950
But whether it was or whether
it wasn't, it doesn't matter.

00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:04.350
As an adult, you have to learn how to
provide that for yourself so that you can

00:27:04.360 --> 00:27:11.340
literally see yourself at the heart of who
you are as whole and complete and perfect.

00:27:12.680 --> 00:27:17.260
And when you can do that, then you
can start to deal with unwinding all

00:27:17.260 --> 00:27:21.420
of the mechanism you've built around
those moments in life where you decided

00:27:21.420 --> 00:27:24.380
something was wrong with you or whatever.

00:27:24.610 --> 00:27:27.830
You can start to unwind that, but
you've gotta get to that place, and

00:27:27.830 --> 00:27:31.880
it's not, this is not, like, you know,
a lifetime of Buddhist contemplation.

00:27:32.090 --> 00:27:33.010
I'm not talking about that.

00:27:33.180 --> 00:27:34.570
This doesn't have to take a lifetime.

00:27:35.520 --> 00:27:37.650
It can happen very quickly,
but you have to do it

00:27:37.708 --> 00:27:37.848
Michael: Yep.

00:27:38.678 --> 00:27:39.808
And I imagine that's--

00:27:40.082 --> 00:27:40.612
Andrew: Does that make sense?

00:27:40.678 --> 00:27:46.128
Michael: It does, and I think the way I,
I, if I'm understanding this, what you're

00:27:46.128 --> 00:27:51.718
saying correctly, is that you are, you
have to give yourself permission, right?

00:27:51.728 --> 00:27:57.378
That is kind of the, the first step
to explore, to allow yourself to

00:27:57.528 --> 00:27:59.078
figure out what really matters to you.

00:27:59.748 --> 00:28:05.078
This, you know, first, you know, five, six
years of life that you're talking about

00:28:05.078 --> 00:28:09.878
then, you know, roaming the Garden of
Eden and just kind of one day you wanna do

00:28:09.878 --> 00:28:14.168
this thing, the next day you wanna do that
thing, to me, that's exploration, right?

00:28:14.218 --> 00:28:14.638
We don't,

00:28:14.828 --> 00:28:15.228
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

00:28:15.368 --> 00:28:18.341
Michael: We don't know
what we don't know yet.

00:28:18.341 --> 00:28:18.583
We haven't had these experiences.

00:28:18.583 --> 00:28:18.748
We just need to

00:28:18.916 --> 00:28:19.856
Andrew: Yeah, yeah.

00:28:20.998 --> 00:28:26.548
Michael: Explore and experience what
there is in life to be offered to

00:28:26.548 --> 00:28:30.148
us, and then allow ourselves, gives
ourse-, give ourselves permission to

00:28:30.148 --> 00:28:35.628
be like, "Okay, that's what matters
to me. That's what I want to do."

00:28:36.266 --> 00:28:36.406
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:28:36.406 --> 00:28:37.506
I like the way you said that.

00:28:37.696 --> 00:28:42.366
I like that because you know, and I know
in one of your most recent episodes,

00:28:42.376 --> 00:28:46.266
you brought up this question of like,
you know, how do I know what I want?

00:28:46.266 --> 00:28:50.246
And, and the person you were
interviewing, I think it was the pianist.

00:28:50.616 --> 00:28:51.426
Anyway, his name

00:28:51.426 --> 00:28:51.746
Michael: escapes

00:28:51.746 --> 00:28:51.770
Andrew: me,

00:28:51.820 --> 00:28:52.270
Michael: Anthony.

00:28:52.406 --> 00:28:56.426
Andrew: but, Anthony, Anthony, you
know, he was talking about how that

00:28:56.546 --> 00:28:58.456
question is deceptively difficult.

00:28:58.496 --> 00:29:00.586
Like, it seems like it's an
easy question to answer, but

00:29:00.586 --> 00:29:01.576
it's actually quite difficult.

00:29:02.036 --> 00:29:05.536
But what I want to say about this thing
you're saying is that it's permission

00:29:05.536 --> 00:29:07.016
you're giving yourself to explore, right?

00:29:07.246 --> 00:29:11.006
When, when you're being driven to
have to be some way in order to prove

00:29:11.006 --> 00:29:14.346
something or disprove something about
yourself, there is no freedom to explore.

00:29:14.696 --> 00:29:17.026
There's no freedom to explore the
question, what do I really want,

00:29:17.026 --> 00:29:19.226
because you have to get the answer
right, and you have to make sure it

00:29:19.226 --> 00:29:22.546
fits into this pattern of how you
get value as a man in the world and

00:29:22.616 --> 00:29:24.946
all of this stuff, which is all crap.

00:29:24.986 --> 00:29:26.036
It's just all crap.

00:29:26.366 --> 00:29:28.686
Because you have a compass built in.

00:29:28.976 --> 00:29:30.386
It's built in.

00:29:30.396 --> 00:29:34.926
It comes with the hardware that points
you in the direction to your answer

00:29:34.926 --> 00:29:37.606
to this question of what is meaningful
to me, what is important to me.

00:29:37.886 --> 00:29:42.376
And yes, to access it, you have to give
yourself permission to let go of all

00:29:42.376 --> 00:29:45.636
these pictures you have of how you're
supposed to be, so you can get connected

00:29:45.636 --> 00:29:48.826
to what gives you joy, what gives you
inspiration, what gives you true desire.

00:29:49.276 --> 00:29:52.846
And when people tell me, like, "Well,
I don't really know what I want," so

00:29:52.846 --> 00:29:59.996
then, then the place to begin is can
you experience the want of wanting

00:29:59.996 --> 00:30:01.616
to know the answer to the question?

00:30:02.166 --> 00:30:05.286
Like, do you really want to know
what it is that would turn you on?

00:30:05.316 --> 00:30:09.006
People are like, "Yes, I really want
to know what would make me happy."

00:30:09.206 --> 00:30:10.906
And there it is right there.

00:30:10.966 --> 00:30:11.826
That's the compass.

00:30:12.486 --> 00:30:16.586
You see, that is built in, that desire
to know what would make me happy

00:30:16.606 --> 00:30:21.476
is the same compass as, oh, music
brings me joy, or this brings me joy.

00:30:21.536 --> 00:30:25.396
So the first piece of this is, so we're
now we're on the question of, like, how

00:30:25.396 --> 00:30:28.216
do you know what to use as your North
Star, right, to build this meaningful

00:30:28.226 --> 00:30:30.456
life we're talking about, where you're
not forced to grind all the time, just to

00:30:30.456 --> 00:30:31.796
keep the thread, the through line here.

00:30:32.396 --> 00:30:36.476
So get, getting connected to what you
want is always just, like, one simple

00:30:36.476 --> 00:30:39.266
step away, 'cause when you don't know
the answer to what you want, you do

00:30:39.266 --> 00:30:41.856
know that you want to know, and that
will connect you to the emotion of

00:30:41.856 --> 00:30:44.756
wanting, and that's the first step, okay?

00:30:46.244 --> 00:30:51.584
So then the, the second piece of that,
once you let yourself get connected to

00:30:51.584 --> 00:30:54.804
that, is just to change the question.

00:30:55.174 --> 00:30:58.904
Don't answer the, don't try to answer
the question of like, "What do I want

00:30:58.924 --> 00:31:02.074
my life to be about?" Or, "What is the
right life for me to live?" or whatever.

00:31:02.294 --> 00:31:08.724
Just answer the question: What's
the right next thing to check out?

00:31:09.444 --> 00:31:14.354
And all you have to do is follow
your curiosity and/or your joy.

00:31:14.894 --> 00:31:18.114
Like, well, I don't know, it just really
gives me joy to go play pickup basketball

00:31:18.124 --> 00:31:20.234
with buddies, you know, once a… Great.

00:31:20.424 --> 00:31:23.134
Go do that, and just notice like
what's joyful about that for you.

00:31:23.534 --> 00:31:24.494
Is it the camaraderie?

00:31:24.494 --> 00:31:25.474
Is it the competition?

00:31:25.474 --> 00:31:26.884
Is it the physical exercise?

00:31:27.084 --> 00:31:27.804
What brings you joy?

00:31:27.834 --> 00:31:30.234
Or I just love watching
this particular show.

00:31:30.244 --> 00:31:31.284
What is it about this show?

00:31:31.294 --> 00:31:33.374
Like, it's right there.

00:31:33.384 --> 00:31:35.354
So I wanna demystify this for people.

00:31:35.354 --> 00:31:37.124
Like, it's freaking built in.

00:31:37.134 --> 00:31:38.174
You are not broken.

00:31:38.364 --> 00:31:41.414
Mostly people just ask too
difficult of a question.

00:31:41.824 --> 00:31:45.664
And you can, you really can trust that,
and this can help you navigate this

00:31:45.664 --> 00:31:49.184
question about like how much do I work and
how much time do I spend with my family?

00:31:49.504 --> 00:31:52.774
Because if you're, again, if you're
stuck in these pictures of how

00:31:52.774 --> 00:31:54.294
you're supposed to be as a man.

00:31:55.274 --> 00:31:59.334
Oh, I'm supposed to be making all
this money, providing all the stuff

00:31:59.344 --> 00:32:02.044
for my family, but also now in
this modern age, I'm supposed to

00:32:02.054 --> 00:32:05.844
be there all the time and coach all
the sports and do all the things.

00:32:05.934 --> 00:32:08.404
And when all you have is the way
you're supposed to be, how you

00:32:08.404 --> 00:32:13.734
should be, you can't freaking get to
the bottom of how do you wanna be?

00:32:13.760 --> 00:32:14.070
Michael: Right.

00:32:14.694 --> 00:32:17.844
Andrew: 'Cause that is a solvable
challenge even when there are

00:32:17.844 --> 00:32:20.864
conflicts of like, I can't be in
two places at once or whatever.

00:32:21.094 --> 00:32:23.214
Yeah, that, that stuff happens
and you have to make choices.

00:32:23.214 --> 00:32:27.214
But, but you can actually work
all that stuff out when you're not

00:32:27.234 --> 00:32:33.014
in some, like, prescribed picture
based on a standard called a should

00:32:33.288 --> 00:32:33.408
Michael: Yeah.

00:32:33.924 --> 00:32:34.864
Andrew: For how to be a dad.

00:32:34.864 --> 00:32:38.044
When you're like, "Well, well, what do my
kids really need from me? What do I want

00:32:38.044 --> 00:32:40.334
from them?" Like my dad worked a lot.

00:32:40.334 --> 00:32:42.224
He was a sole provider for three kids.

00:32:42.454 --> 00:32:43.614
My mom was a stay-at-home mom.

00:32:43.624 --> 00:32:47.254
My dad was a physician working in
a new practice, and he just worked

00:32:47.264 --> 00:32:50.944
all the time, but he came home for
dinner, and then he went back to work.

00:32:51.884 --> 00:32:54.884
And on the weekends he wasn't on
call, he played sports with us.

00:32:55.274 --> 00:32:57.624
My experience as a kid was
that he was never gone.

00:32:57.708 --> 00:32:58.038
Michael: Right.

00:32:58.264 --> 00:33:00.584
Andrew: His experience as a dad
was that he was never there.

00:33:01.354 --> 00:33:03.544
But as a kid, I felt his love for me.

00:33:03.604 --> 00:33:08.114
I never felt outside the bubble of his
love for me because somehow as a little

00:33:08.114 --> 00:33:11.724
kid, it registered for me the fact that
he came home for dinner before he went

00:33:11.734 --> 00:33:13.938
back to work, his love was present for me.

00:33:13.988 --> 00:33:14.228
Michael: Yeah.

00:33:14.414 --> 00:33:19.914
Andrew: So, it's not the way men think
it is, you know, and if you can just

00:33:19.924 --> 00:33:24.874
get outside that prison of should,
then you can start really being

00:33:24.874 --> 00:33:27.774
creative around this is meaningful
to me, this is meaningful to me, this

00:33:27.774 --> 00:33:31.064
is meaningful to my kids, so I wanna
keep that in the picture, et cetera.

00:33:31.074 --> 00:33:34.014
It doesn't have to be
an intractable question.

00:33:34.116 --> 00:33:34.926
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:35.036 --> 00:33:36.146
There's so much to unpack here, too.

00:33:36.146 --> 00:33:41.576
It's like what is screaming out to
me right now is it, I, I see this as

00:33:41.576 --> 00:33:44.796
like an open and close switch, right?

00:33:44.836 --> 00:33:50.356
And it's so easy for us, as particularly
as dads, to get into a rhythm, get

00:33:50.356 --> 00:33:54.826
into, "This is how our day-to-day is,
this is what I should be doing." And

00:33:54.826 --> 00:33:57.656
so we kind of close off opportunity.

00:33:57.656 --> 00:33:59.536
We say, "Okay, this is
what I'm gonna be doing.

00:33:59.996 --> 00:34:04.596
It's the, this is the path I know, so
it's easy to, to stick to that path.

00:34:04.596 --> 00:34:11.126
Change is hard, so I'm going to close
off, even if I'm feeling under stress,

00:34:11.156 --> 00:34:13.276
I'm gonna close off op-, my optionality.

00:34:13.276 --> 00:34:16.186
I'm gonna only look at the, 'This
is what I should be doing just

00:34:16.186 --> 00:34:17.166
to get me through this.'" Right?

00:34:17.226 --> 00:34:17.826
And so I'm always closed.

00:34:17.916 --> 00:34:19.076
closed I'm always closed.

00:34:19.306 --> 00:34:19.646
Andrew: Yep.

00:34:19.856 --> 00:34:19.876
Yeah

00:34:20.156 --> 00:34:22.876
Michael: All I have to do is strip
away that should, take away the

00:34:22.876 --> 00:34:26.896
emotion, strip away the shoulds,
and be like, "What actually means

00:34:26.906 --> 00:34:28.386
something to me? What is…"

00:34:28.612 --> 00:34:28.932
Andrew: Yeah.

00:34:28.936 --> 00:34:35.026
Michael: And what you said was, you have
to take it one step at a time, right?

00:34:35.066 --> 00:34:38.026
And to open yourself up, you
have to be like, "Okay, what

00:34:38.026 --> 00:34:39.846
is the first thing I can do?"

00:34:40.644 --> 00:34:41.114
Andrew: Yeah.

00:34:41.166 --> 00:34:45.126
Michael: Right, and it's for, it's
easy when you're so busy, you know,

00:34:45.126 --> 00:34:50.176
between work and home and whatever
social commitments you have, to put

00:34:50.176 --> 00:34:56.776
aside the things that are going to make
you happy and healthy in the long run.

00:34:56.876 --> 00:34:57.356
And

00:34:57.548 --> 00:34:57.948
Andrew: Right.

00:34:58.126 --> 00:35:02.506
Michael: It is so difficult then to
give yourself that permission, give

00:35:02.506 --> 00:35:07.776
yourself that time to say, "Okay, is
this really what I want to be doing?

00:35:07.786 --> 00:35:10.576
Is this how I want to be spending
my time? Is this what I want to do?"

00:35:10.830 --> 00:35:11.140
Andrew: Right, right.

00:35:11.906 --> 00:35:13.976
Michael: As opposed to being like,
"Yeah, you know, this is what I need

00:35:13.976 --> 00:35:17.736
to do, so I'm just gonna keep doing
this." We stay so close-minded when

00:35:17.986 --> 00:35:18.286
Andrew: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:35:19.016 --> 00:35:21.706
Michael: Every now and again, it's
okay to open up that switch and be

00:35:21.706 --> 00:35:24.336
like, "Yeah, maybe I should look
at this from a different lens."

00:35:24.486 --> 00:35:26.616
Andrew: I think, I think dads
have a, have an advantage here

00:35:26.656 --> 00:35:29.316
because o-, over men who, who,

00:35:32.626 --> 00:35:35.446
I guess if you don't have kids,
you don't have that pull as well

00:35:35.746 --> 00:35:37.596
to, to be there for your kids.

00:35:37.596 --> 00:35:38.786
So you don't have that challenge.

00:35:38.786 --> 00:35:42.916
But I think the men have an advantage
in this one sense of who are dads

00:35:42.966 --> 00:35:48.596
in confronting this is because if
you think about that children learn

00:35:48.636 --> 00:35:58.276
way more from who you're being
than what you say matters, right?

00:35:58.416 --> 00:36:03.376
And they, they get way more about
life from how you feel about your

00:36:03.376 --> 00:36:05.076
life than what you say about it.

00:36:05.346 --> 00:36:06.026
I promise you.

00:36:06.446 --> 00:36:09.956
Parents think, parents think they can,
like, hide things from their children,

00:36:09.966 --> 00:36:13.066
that if they're in an unhappy marriage,
they can hide that, that if they're

00:36:13.066 --> 00:36:16.676
unhappy in life, they can hide that by
smiling and being joyful with their kids.

00:36:16.856 --> 00:36:17.876
You cannot.

00:36:18.236 --> 00:36:19.916
Human beings are not made that way.

00:36:19.986 --> 00:36:23.596
Human beings are empathetic,
neurologically wired that way.

00:36:23.636 --> 00:36:25.066
We read each other's feelings.

00:36:25.066 --> 00:36:27.896
We read each other's sp-, you
know, space, emotional space.

00:36:28.306 --> 00:36:33.376
You can't hide what's there by
changing your face or by putting

00:36:33.426 --> 00:36:35.856
on a tone of voice that's not a
match for what you're feeling.

00:36:36.476 --> 00:36:41.656
So, if you think of it this way, dads,
if you're not enjoying your life, if

00:36:41.656 --> 00:36:46.706
you're experiencing lots of regret,
if you're experiencing a deadness, and

00:36:46.706 --> 00:36:50.706
you're doing it for what for you are
good reasons, noble reasons, like I'm

00:36:50.706 --> 00:36:55.596
doing this, I'm making this sacrifice
because it will benefit my family, okay?

00:36:55.896 --> 00:37:00.066
Ask yourself this question: Do I
want my daughter, my son, to have the

00:37:00.066 --> 00:37:03.456
experience of life for the rest of
their life that I'm having in mine?

00:37:03.596 --> 00:37:04.496
Yes or no?

00:37:04.836 --> 00:37:08.036
And if the answer is no,
then don't give them that

00:37:08.460 --> 00:37:08.780
Michael: Yep.

00:37:09.376 --> 00:37:11.046
Andrew: Real freaking simple.

00:37:11.466 --> 00:37:15.576
Because they are picking up what
you are putting down emotionally,

00:37:16.306 --> 00:37:19.056
ontologically, not what you're saying.

00:37:20.166 --> 00:37:23.776
So if you want your children to
have a joyful life, a meaningful

00:37:23.776 --> 00:37:27.776
life, there is, the best way you're
gonna give that to them is do that,

00:37:27.846 --> 00:37:27.916
Michael: Yep.

00:37:28.806 --> 00:37:30.136
Andrew: is really confront that.

00:37:30.486 --> 00:37:33.696
And I think that gives dads an
extra motivation to really do

00:37:33.696 --> 00:37:38.386
the looking and the, the real,
like, reckoning with ourselves.

00:37:38.686 --> 00:37:40.156
What is important to me?

00:37:40.156 --> 00:37:41.636
What would give me a meaningful life?

00:37:41.966 --> 00:37:43.846
'Cause it isn't just being homeless.

00:37:43.876 --> 00:37:45.846
I want to provide for my family.

00:37:45.886 --> 00:37:49.706
I want to feel like I'm taking care
of them, but I don't want to do it

00:37:49.706 --> 00:37:51.216
at the, at the expense of my joy.

00:37:51.236 --> 00:37:55.576
So how do I work that out and fi-, you
know, then, then go to work on that.

00:37:55.596 --> 00:38:00.296
Don't just give up and sacrifice
your joy for financial security,

00:38:00.306 --> 00:38:03.736
because you're teaching your
children to live the exact same life.

00:38:03.956 --> 00:38:06.746
They will, just will
inherit that from you.

00:38:06.796 --> 00:38:07.166
Michael: Yes.

00:38:07.696 --> 00:38:09.476
If I could give you a standing
ovation right now, I would.

00:38:09.696 --> 00:38:15.656
It's exactly, I think you're exactly
right that kids follow actions.

00:38:15.736 --> 00:38:17.216
Actions speak louder than words, right?

00:38:17.546 --> 00:38:17.966
And…

00:38:18.156 --> 00:38:20.096
Andrew: Yeah, and emotions
speak louder than actions

00:38:20.146 --> 00:38:23.096
Michael: And e-, emotions and actions,
to me at least, I think are intertwined.

00:38:23.706 --> 00:38:23.936
Right?

00:38:23.936 --> 00:38:28.146
So it's like your actions and
your emotions, it's very hard

00:38:28.146 --> 00:38:33.886
to show one action while feeling
the opposite emotion, right?

00:38:33.886 --> 00:38:37.766
I think it's the emotion that you're
in is going to drive your actions.

00:38:37.776 --> 00:38:43.616
So, yes, emotions usurp actions, but I
think they also control your actions.

00:38:43.616 --> 00:38:43.936
So,

00:38:44.374 --> 00:38:44.614
Andrew: Yeah.

00:38:44.796 --> 00:38:50.226
Michael: to me, it's like you, what you
demonstrate for your kids is shown through

00:38:50.226 --> 00:38:52.976
how you show up, not what you say, right?

00:38:53.092 --> 00:38:53.556
Andrew: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

00:38:53.556 --> 00:38:59.536
Michael: And it is, in the moment, it
is so difficult to see that, right?

00:38:59.556 --> 00:39:05.256
As, you know, when, when I'm overwhelmed
with work and home life and whatever else

00:39:05.256 --> 00:39:10.846
might be going on, you know, around me,
it's difficult to remember like, yeah,

00:39:10.846 --> 00:39:14.356
I could keep telling my kids this is
the right thing to do, but if I'm not

00:39:14.616 --> 00:39:18.546
doing that or I'm doing the opposite of
that, they're gonna follow that lead.

00:39:18.546 --> 00:39:21.216
They're not gonna follow what
I say 'cause words are hollow.

00:39:21.216 --> 00:39:23.706
Like it, they, they are just words.

00:39:24.106 --> 00:39:28.126
And it's not like I'm giving them
like a workbook, like, okay, this,

00:39:28.166 --> 00:39:32.096
today's lesson is, you know, do X,
Y, and Z, and here's how you do it.

00:39:32.106 --> 00:39:34.156
This is how you should do it, and
this is how you should live your life.

00:39:34.586 --> 00:39:35.556
That's not how life works.

00:39:35.656 --> 00:39:37.596
Life works through experience, right?

00:39:37.694 --> 00:39:37.954
Andrew: Right, right.

00:39:37.954 --> 00:39:39.506
Michael: Whether you're a
kid or you're an adult, like,

00:39:40.024 --> 00:39:40.334
Andrew: Right.

00:39:40.456 --> 00:39:42.646
Michael: like you said early on, like
you didn't know what you didn't know

00:39:42.646 --> 00:39:44.476
because you hadn't experienced it before.

00:39:44.536 --> 00:39:45.076
And then once you,

00:39:45.142 --> 00:39:45.502
Andrew: Yes.

00:39:45.676 --> 00:39:48.956
Michael: you lived through the
running a retail shop, building

00:39:48.966 --> 00:39:52.846
your own furniture, and raising your
daughter all at the same time, right?

00:39:52.846 --> 00:39:55.086
Those were lessons you had
to learn through experience.

00:39:55.136 --> 00:39:58.026
It wasn't like somebody, you know,
I, I know you said you took classes,

00:39:58.026 --> 00:39:59.846
but they couldn't tell you like,
"This is what's going to happen."

00:40:00.296 --> 00:40:00.526
Andrew: No.

00:40:01.006 --> 00:40:02.796
Michael: On Thursday at four o'clock,
when you're exhausted 'cause you've

00:40:02.796 --> 00:40:06.286
already worked 40 hours this week and
there's still more time to go, right,

00:40:06.326 --> 00:40:11.246
and your daughter is getting hungry and
tired, and you don't close the store for

00:40:11.246 --> 00:40:13.496
another two hours, like what do you do?

00:40:13.496 --> 00:40:17.846
Like you have to, y-, you don't
know that until you experience it.

00:40:17.846 --> 00:40:20.526
But when you give your kids some of
these experiences, I'm not saying

00:40:20.526 --> 00:40:23.616
you should put your kids to work for
40 hours, right, at the age of four.

00:40:23.626 --> 00:40:27.156
But like you can start to show them
through your own experiences and allow

00:40:27.156 --> 00:40:32.536
them to participate in experiences to
understand what is meaningful to you

00:40:32.616 --> 00:40:37.786
in life, what you hope to provide to
them going forward in terms of living

00:40:37.786 --> 00:40:40.796
a meaningful life, living a full
life, a happy life, whatever it may

00:40:40.796 --> 00:40:43.506
be that you want for, for your kids.

00:40:44.566 --> 00:40:47.426
Andrew: And I think, I think one, one
thing we can add to that, if I may,

00:40:47.606 --> 00:40:48.046
Michael: Please.

00:40:49.066 --> 00:40:52.886
Andrew: is also the other th-, the other
thing that we can do as dads for our kids

00:40:52.906 --> 00:40:58.656
is to train, especially our sons, but
our daughters, too, what strength looks

00:40:58.656 --> 00:41:01.626
like in a world of emotional honesty.

00:41:02.366 --> 00:41:05.856
Because a lot of the social and
cultural images of strength from

00:41:05.916 --> 00:41:07.806
men involve a lack of  emotionality.

00:41:08.146 --> 00:41:08.446
Michael: Right.

00:41:09.966 --> 00:41:11.536
Andrew: And that's not
real and it's not healthy.

00:41:11.846 --> 00:41:16.026
And so you know, I th-, I was a big
proponent, and as I said, like I

00:41:16.026 --> 00:41:17.536
did a lot of thoughtful parenting.

00:41:17.536 --> 00:41:19.806
So one of the things I did in
parenting my daughter was I

00:41:19.806 --> 00:41:21.056
shared her, my struggles with her.

00:41:21.066 --> 00:41:25.176
And often when she was old enough to have
an opinion, I would ask her her opinion.

00:41:26.676 --> 00:41:29.246
You know, so I would say, "Ugh."
Like for example, I remember this

00:41:29.246 --> 00:41:31.996
one time I said, "Ugh, Ileana,

00:41:34.016 --> 00:41:36.386
I am so upset with myself right now.

00:41:36.416 --> 00:41:40.916
I don't know what to do." I said, "I
lied to a customer at work today 'cause

00:41:40.916 --> 00:41:43.866
I was afraid to tell them the truth,
and now I just can't live with myself.

00:41:43.866 --> 00:41:45.776
But if I go back and tell them
the truth, I'm afraid they're

00:41:45.776 --> 00:41:46.906
gonna fire me from the job.

00:41:46.906 --> 00:41:50.146
I feel like I've really screwed this whole
thing up and I don't know what to do.

00:41:50.146 --> 00:41:52.896
I'm so embarrassed that I lied."
I was just, in the moment,

00:41:52.896 --> 00:41:53.866
it just came out of my mouth.

00:41:53.866 --> 00:41:54.826
I was so nervous.

00:41:55.306 --> 00:41:57.886
I like told her, I was like,
"What do you think I should do?"

00:41:59.968 --> 00:42:03.928
And just to show our kids we
don't have all the answers,

00:42:03.932 --> 00:42:04.262
Michael: Right.

00:42:05.038 --> 00:42:09.098
Andrew: and we have struggles, and we
wanna be good people, and sometimes

00:42:09.098 --> 00:42:12.028
we do things that we're not proud
of, and we have to go clean them up.

00:42:12.438 --> 00:42:13.408
And it's okay.

00:42:13.468 --> 00:42:15.658
It's okay to be human.

00:42:16.210 --> 00:42:16.450
Michael: Absolutely.

00:42:16.708 --> 00:42:17.768
Andrew: It's okay, right?

00:42:17.768 --> 00:42:22.598
And I think that builds a
different kind of strength, the

00:42:22.598 --> 00:42:27.338
kind of strength that comes from
authenticity and of vulnerability.

00:42:27.382 --> 00:42:28.072
Michael: Yeah, I couldn't
agree with you more.

00:42:28.082 --> 00:42:34.432
I think what I love about that is not
only are you demonstrating radical honesty

00:42:34.482 --> 00:42:36.582
or just honesty in general, right, with

00:42:36.854 --> 00:42:37.224
Andrew: Yeah.

00:42:37.512 --> 00:42:41.522
Michael: your, with your child,
but also you're involving them in

00:42:41.522 --> 00:42:46.422
the conversation, which is giving
them a new sense of confidence.

00:42:46.870 --> 00:42:47.370
Andrew: Yeah.

00:42:47.422 --> 00:42:51.192
Michael: Like, somebody who is
further along in life trusts what I

00:42:51.192 --> 00:42:54.012
have to say, values what I have to
say, is willing to listen, right?

00:42:54.032 --> 00:42:59.422
That gives them a confidence to then
start to build their own foundation

00:42:59.442 --> 00:43:01.572
of what is meaningful to them, right?

00:43:01.572 --> 00:43:05.132
It's like, it's okay if I can think
on my own, like my opinions do matter.

00:43:05.132 --> 00:43:10.772
And that is so important, I think, for,
for kids, especially in the society

00:43:10.772 --> 00:43:13.842
that they're growing up in today, where
everything is out there on social media,

00:43:14.772 --> 00:43:19.022
and it's so easy to be like, "Oh, that
person, they live such a glamorous life.

00:43:19.022 --> 00:43:20.912
I'll never be able to, to do that," right?

00:43:21.650 --> 00:43:22.050
Andrew: Totally.

00:43:22.702 --> 00:43:23.562
Michael: That doesn't matter.

00:43:24.072 --> 00:43:25.822
First of all, they're probably projecting.

00:43:25.822 --> 00:43:28.122
They're not actually, what
they're posting online is probably

00:43:28.122 --> 00:43:30.922
not 100% honest or truthful.

00:43:31.602 --> 00:43:35.002
But it doesn't matter, because if you
have the confidence in yourself that you

00:43:35.002 --> 00:43:42.012
can lead a productive life, a happy life,
a meaningful, fulfilling life, doesn't

00:43:42.012 --> 00:43:44.462
matter what, what everybody else thinks.

00:43:44.512 --> 00:43:44.942
It's--

00:43:45.198 --> 00:43:45.428
Andrew: Correct.

00:43:45.642 --> 00:43:51.012
Michael: That is, to me, one of the best
gifts you can give to a child, is to give

00:43:51.012 --> 00:43:55.282
them the confidence to know that they
can achieve what they want to achieve.

00:43:56.022 --> 00:43:57.992
And it doesn't matter what
anybody else has achieved.

00:43:58.652 --> 00:44:02.122
They, they're only in control of their
own life, not anybody else's, right?

00:44:02.618 --> 00:44:03.148
Andrew: Well said.

00:44:03.162 --> 00:44:03.572
Michael: And…

00:44:04.138 --> 00:44:07.828
Andrew: yeah, well, building from joy
versus building from lack, building

00:44:07.828 --> 00:44:10.028
from love versus building from fear.

00:44:10.738 --> 00:44:15.398
You know, they're both forms of building,
but one of them regardless of the

00:44:15.538 --> 00:44:18.148
outcome, just brings you more joy, growth.

00:44:18.168 --> 00:44:22.608
And the other one just comes with a very,
very, very high cost, and it's completely

00:44:22.608 --> 00:44:24.598
unnecessary 'cause the fear is a lie.

00:44:24.658 --> 00:44:24.878
Michael: Yeah.

00:44:25.088 --> 00:44:26.848
Andrew: It's just always a lie, you know?

00:44:26.848 --> 00:44:31.428
It's just the, the fear we have of
failing, that people are gonna think

00:44:31.428 --> 00:44:33.828
this or that about ourselves, or
that we'll never be able to redeem

00:44:33.828 --> 00:44:37.058
ourselves if we have a business failure
or this or that, it's all just a lie.

00:44:37.518 --> 00:44:40.668
And it all is, the ultimate lie
isn't that, that what you think is

00:44:40.668 --> 00:44:41.698
gonna happen isn't gonna happen.

00:44:41.698 --> 00:44:43.958
Some people might judge you
and, you know, some people

00:44:43.958 --> 00:44:45.498
might not hire you or whatever.

00:44:46.168 --> 00:44:52.548
But the, the bigger lie is that you could
do something to damage your intrinsic

00:44:52.558 --> 00:44:58.298
worth as a human being by succeeding or
failing, and it doesn't work that way.

00:44:58.418 --> 00:45:01.888
And we believe that it does, and
that's the lie that gets us in trouble.

00:45:01.928 --> 00:45:05.958
And if I could just leave, you know,
the, the dads and, well, all the people

00:45:05.958 --> 00:45:09.878
listening with that one thing is kinda
going full circle about what did I get

00:45:09.878 --> 00:45:12.918
wrong, and, you know, what did I learn?

00:45:13.668 --> 00:45:17.908
There's nothing you can ever do
in your life that will add to or

00:45:17.908 --> 00:45:22.898
take away anything from the majesty
of your being, of your soul.

00:45:24.048 --> 00:45:25.318
It's just, it's not the way it works.

00:45:25.494 --> 00:45:25.744
Michael: Right.

00:45:26.098 --> 00:45:32.588
Andrew: You can learn, you can evolve,
but you can't diminish what you are.

00:45:32.688 --> 00:45:35.728
What you were for your parents the
fr-, first moment they held you

00:45:35.748 --> 00:45:39.558
is still the center, the center
of the center of who you are.

00:45:39.588 --> 00:45:44.518
And so the big lie that leads to all
the fear is that somehow that thing

00:45:44.668 --> 00:45:48.988
that you are, that you and I are, that
we all are, is somehow broken or is

00:45:48.988 --> 00:45:51.228
somehow bad or is somehow not enough.

00:45:51.228 --> 00:45:52.318
That is all a lie.

00:45:52.758 --> 00:45:57.968
And, you know, if you can give up that
lie, then it's so much more available

00:45:57.968 --> 00:46:00.708
to you to build a meaningful life.

00:46:00.758 --> 00:46:03.698
And I don't, by that I don't
mean all the stuff you have.

00:46:03.738 --> 00:46:08.188
I mean, the whole journey,
even the struggles, right?

00:46:08.188 --> 00:46:13.448
To just be like, "Wow, this is ama-,
this sucks and it's amazing." You know,

00:46:13.478 --> 00:46:18.708
like, so I'll get off my soapbox, but
I really wanted to put a, a big per-,

00:46:18.738 --> 00:46:20.218
an exclamation point on that one.

00:46:20.318 --> 00:46:21.148
Michael: I appreciate that.

00:46:21.338 --> 00:46:23.498
Before we get into the speed round,
I want to ask you one more question.

00:46:24.098 --> 00:46:24.738
You know, when,

00:46:26.928 --> 00:46:31.248
with so much going on and we're
trying to figure out some of these

00:46:31.488 --> 00:46:36.238
philosophical questions in our lives
of like what do-, what is meaningful

00:46:36.248 --> 00:46:39.488
for me and how do I kind of strip away
some of the emotion so I can start to

00:46:39.488 --> 00:46:41.868
think a little bit more clearly or look
at things a little bit more clearly?

00:46:43.898 --> 00:46:46.458
Those are things you can
do at any time, right?

00:46:46.458 --> 00:46:49.258
It's not like you have to wait
to start doing them, right?

00:46:49.278 --> 00:46:52.528
It's, you just have to make
the time to start doing that.

00:46:52.588 --> 00:46:56.068
But I think a lot of dads, a lot of
dads I talk to, they feel overwhelmed.

00:46:56.068 --> 00:46:57.868
There's just always so
much going on, right?

00:46:57.868 --> 00:47:00.808
There's, kids have activities, kids
have to be here, they have to do that.

00:47:01.138 --> 00:47:02.618
I've gotta show up for this.

00:47:02.648 --> 00:47:07.238
I've got to, you know, run these errands,
but I've, and I've got to do this job.

00:47:07.278 --> 00:47:10.478
I've got to do these different things, and
I still want to, you know, have a social

00:47:10.478 --> 00:47:11.538
life and all these different things.

00:47:13.118 --> 00:47:18.378
I'm curious what your take is on
like, what can a dad do this week to

00:47:18.578 --> 00:47:22.148
just create a little more space, a
little more presence for themselves

00:47:22.148 --> 00:47:25.298
or for their loved ones without
waiting to make some big life change?

00:47:25.298 --> 00:47:27.448
Like what's a, what's something
they can do right now?

00:47:29.642 --> 00:47:29.972
Andrew: Okay.

00:47:29.992 --> 00:47:36.472
So one thing that they can do right now is
operate from the principle that you can't

00:47:36.472 --> 00:47:38.482
give away what you do not have, right?

00:47:38.482 --> 00:47:41.962
So if your cup is empty,
you got nothing to give.

00:47:42.682 --> 00:47:45.432
And so, what does that mean practically?

00:47:45.702 --> 00:47:48.782
Practically speaking, you know that
exercise where you're given a bunch

00:47:48.782 --> 00:47:51.372
of rocks, pebbles, and sand, you
have to make it all fit in a jar?

00:47:52.052 --> 00:47:55.082
And the best way to do that is you have
to put the rocks in first and get in

00:47:55.272 --> 00:47:56.592
the rocks in whatever way they'll fit.

00:47:56.592 --> 00:47:59.692
And then you have to put the pebbles
in, shake the jar, and make the pebbles

00:47:59.712 --> 00:48:00.692
move their way around the rocks.

00:48:00.852 --> 00:48:02.492
Then you put the sand in, you
shake the jar, the sand moves

00:48:02.492 --> 00:48:03.552
around everything else, right?

00:48:03.562 --> 00:48:05.522
And that's how you get the
maximum amount in a jar.

00:48:06.432 --> 00:48:13.662
So the rocks of your life have to go in
your calendar first, and the rocks need to

00:48:13.662 --> 00:48:16.252
include what you need to refill your cup.

00:48:16.532 --> 00:48:17.852
Goes in first.

00:48:18.272 --> 00:48:22.752
So your kids' activities, okay, but, you
know, maybe it's some amount of rest.

00:48:22.752 --> 00:48:25.462
Maybe it's some amount of alone time
'cause you recharge when you're alone,

00:48:25.482 --> 00:48:27.012
or it's exercise, or whatever it is.

00:48:27.122 --> 00:48:29.382
Those have got to go in
first, and then you make the

00:48:29.382 --> 00:48:31.102
pebbles move around the rocks.

00:48:32.102 --> 00:48:33.392
And people do it the other way.

00:48:33.412 --> 00:48:36.272
They put the sand in the jar first
and then the pebbles, and then they

00:48:36.272 --> 00:48:38.792
try to shove the rocks in, and they
can't get them in 'cause the, the whole

00:48:38.792 --> 00:48:40.682
jar's already full of sand, right?

00:48:40.682 --> 00:48:43.722
So, one practical thing that
you can do is just get…

00:48:43.732 --> 00:48:47.112
You gotta put the rocks in first, and one
of the rocks has got to be your cup has

00:48:47.112 --> 00:48:51.962
to be as full as possible for you to give
as much as you are capable of giving to

00:48:51.962 --> 00:48:53.702
your job, to your kids, to your spouse.

00:48:54.142 --> 00:48:55.742
So what are those key things for you?

00:48:55.762 --> 00:48:58.352
Is it your diet has to be on point,
your sleep has to be on point,

00:48:58.352 --> 00:48:59.462
you need some amount of exercise?

00:48:59.642 --> 00:49:04.012
And put that in your calendar
first, and then work around that

00:49:04.668 --> 00:49:05.078
Michael: Love that.

00:49:05.088 --> 00:49:07.538
That is so useful.

00:49:07.538 --> 00:49:12.368
It's a great reframing of like, remember,
like what is most important to you?

00:49:12.368 --> 00:49:19.168
I like how it, the, it's a visual metaphor
that is very simple to grasp of like

00:49:19.318 --> 00:49:20.408
the big things have to go in first.

00:49:20.448 --> 00:49:23.978
The sand can kind of just keep filling
in the, the cracks the more you move it.

00:49:23.978 --> 00:49:25.408
So you can keep adjusting your schedule.

00:49:25.568 --> 00:49:27.618
Just because you put all the rocks
in first doesn't mean you have to,

00:49:28.748 --> 00:49:32.398
you can't move a rock later in your
schedule from, you know, Tuesday

00:49:32.398 --> 00:49:33.688
at 8:00 to Wednesday at 3:00.

00:49:33.698 --> 00:49:35.548
Like, things can, things can move.

00:49:35.548 --> 00:49:36.138
That's okay.

00:49:36.248 --> 00:49:39.648
It's just a matter of identifying what
is most important, get those things down

00:49:39.648 --> 00:49:41.598
first, then move on to the next thing.

00:49:41.598 --> 00:49:45.288
It's here is, you know, step
one, step two, step three.

00:49:45.288 --> 00:49:47.118
Like do it in order of importance.

00:49:47.128 --> 00:49:49.048
Figure out what matters most.

00:49:49.068 --> 00:49:50.728
What is going to recharge yourself?

00:49:50.798 --> 00:49:51.708
I, I love that.

00:49:51.708 --> 00:49:58.118
It's so, so practical, which is in
complete, completely contrary to the speed

00:49:58.118 --> 00:49:59.558
round, which is completely unpractical.

00:50:00.018 --> 00:50:01.218
Five quick questions for you,

00:50:01.674 --> 00:50:01.844
Andrew: Awesome

00:50:02.058 --> 00:50:04.368
Michael: starting with what's the first
kid show theme song that comes to mind?

00:50:07.390 --> 00:50:07.910
Andrew: What is it?

00:50:07.970 --> 00:50:08.860
Teenage Shark?

00:50:08.860 --> 00:50:09.440
Da, da, da, da, da, da, da.

00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:10.710
Da, da, da, da, da, da,

00:50:11.800 --> 00:50:12.120
Michael: Oh, the

00:50:12.230 --> 00:50:12.320
Andrew: da,

00:50:12.410 --> 00:50:13.060
Michael: Baby Shark?

00:50:13.070 --> 00:50:13.330
Is that?

00:50:13.750 --> 00:50:14.250
Andrew: Baby Shark.

00:50:14.250 --> 00:50:14.760
Baby Shark.

00:50:14.930 --> 00:50:15.070
Yeah.

00:50:15.590 --> 00:50:18.760
Michael: Yeah, no, that's gonna
be stuck in everyone's head.

00:50:19.140 --> 00:50:21.340
Andrew: I always come to that in
mind Jamie Tartt 'cause I think of,

00:50:21.370 --> 00:50:22.430
Michael: Oh, from "Ted Lasso"?

00:50:23.080 --> 00:50:23.220
Andrew: from Ted Lasso.

00:50:23.240 --> 00:50:23.530
Michael: Yes.

00:50:23.690 --> 00:50:24.770
Andrew: So, I always
forget the actual original.

00:50:24.820 --> 00:50:25.300
Michael: Yes.

00:50:27.100 --> 00:50:29.000
The new season this summer, right?

00:50:29.850 --> 00:50:30.070
Andrew: Yeah.

00:50:30.690 --> 00:50:31.950
Michael: What was your very first job?

00:50:33.756 --> 00:50:36.716
Andrew: So that would be after I shut down
my, well, I guess my first job would have

00:50:36.716 --> 00:50:40.346
been teaching in graduate school, but my
first job outside of school was when I

00:50:40.356 --> 00:50:45.176
shut down my cabinet shop, I started in
a sales role with, like, you know, more

00:50:45.176 --> 00:50:49.186
than half my salary on commissions only,
selling custom cabinets to builders.

00:50:49.244 --> 00:50:49.534
Michael: Oh wow.

00:50:50.656 --> 00:50:50.946
Andrew: Yeah

00:50:51.274 --> 00:50:53.734
Michael: Would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:50:53.744 --> 00:50:55.924
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:50:59.052 --> 00:50:59.996
Andrew: A toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:51:00.046 --> 00:51:00.656
Michael: Why is that?

00:51:02.152 --> 00:51:05.032
Andrew: Because I couldn't keep the
T-Rex-sized toddler from killing

00:51:05.032 --> 00:51:06.732
itself by doing something foolish.

00:51:06.752 --> 00:51:07.412
It's too big.

00:51:08.042 --> 00:51:08.740
That would be horrible.

00:51:08.790 --> 00:51:09.610
Michael: Yeah, good point.

00:51:10.010 --> 00:51:10.370
Good point.

00:51:10.390 --> 00:51:13.260
What's your go-to karaoke song and
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:51:14.844 --> 00:51:16.984
Andrew: Pretty much anything from
James Taylor, 'cause A, I love his

00:51:16.984 --> 00:51:18.854
music, and B, we have the same range.

00:51:18.854 --> 00:51:19.434
Michael: Excellent.

00:51:20.124 --> 00:51:20.564
Excellent.

00:51:20.654 --> 00:51:22.714
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:51:22.714 --> 00:51:24.314
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:51:25.466 --> 00:51:25.986
Andrew: Weirdest thing?

00:51:26.184 --> 00:51:26.354
Michael: Yeah.

00:51:30.694 --> 00:51:39.284
Andrew: Maybe of my costume for Halloween
in 2024, I think it was, I finally got the

00:51:39.284 --> 00:51:46.564
courage to dress up as Dr. Frank-N-Furter
from Rocky Horror Picture Show when he

00:51:46.584 --> 00:51:51.224
does the big time warp scene, and he's
in the pearl necklace, and the garters,

00:51:51.224 --> 00:51:52.764
and the high-heel shoes and everything.

00:51:52.884 --> 00:51:56.704
I, I always thought Tim Curry was
such a bomb for doing that role, and

00:51:56.704 --> 00:51:58.874
I'm like, "One of these days, I'm
gonna have the courage to do that."

00:51:58.874 --> 00:52:02.724
So I went out and bought some six-inch
stiletto heels, like size 15 or

00:52:02.724 --> 00:52:04.494
whatever it was in women's shoes, right?

00:52:04.494 --> 00:52:05.204
I bought the wig.

00:52:05.224 --> 00:52:06.384
I went to Sephora.

00:52:06.384 --> 00:52:10.014
I got my whole face done up in makeup
like he did in the movie, and I had

00:52:10.014 --> 00:52:11.374
the bustier and the whole thing.

00:52:12.494 --> 00:52:15.134
So yeah, I had that whole costume put
together, and then when I finally put it

00:52:15.134 --> 00:52:18.514
on and went out for Halloween, I was so
self-conscious, but I was proud of myself

00:52:18.524 --> 00:52:19.964
for having the courage to go out that way.

00:52:20.852 --> 00:52:20.872
Michael: Yeah.

00:52:20.872 --> 00:52:21.502
That's amazing.

00:52:22.072 --> 00:52:22.752
That's amazing.

00:52:23.172 --> 00:52:27.772
Before we wrap up, Andrew, I want to make
sure you point people in the direction

00:52:27.772 --> 00:52:30.412
of, for anyone listening who's thinking
like, "I need to make this shift,"

00:52:30.412 --> 00:52:34.012
like, "I need to take this next step,"
where should they go to learn more

00:52:34.012 --> 00:52:35.512
about your work or to connect with you?

00:52:36.542 --> 00:52:41.642
Andrew: Two best places to go are my
website, andrewpoles.com, where you

00:52:41.642 --> 00:52:45.182
can read my blog, you can read what my
business is about and send me messages.

00:52:45.402 --> 00:52:46.212
And then LinkedIn.

00:52:46.212 --> 00:52:47.442
I'm very active on LinkedIn.

00:52:47.442 --> 00:52:48.632
I have a newsletter there.

00:52:49.392 --> 00:52:50.982
So you can just look me up
at linkedin.in/andrewpoles

00:52:53.642 --> 00:52:55.332
and read my work and
connect with me there.

00:52:55.596 --> 00:52:55.846
Michael: Awesome.

00:52:56.096 --> 00:52:57.706
We'll put those links in
the show notes for sure.

00:52:58.126 --> 00:52:59.876
Andrew, I really appreciate
this conversation.

00:52:59.886 --> 00:53:07.476
You brought a level of honesty to, to
a lot of difficult conversation, right?

00:53:07.476 --> 00:53:12.086
It's not something that we as dads
often have the language to express of

00:53:12.086 --> 00:53:15.776
like, "This is what I really want to
be doing. This is what I need to be

00:53:15.776 --> 00:53:21.996
doing. This is how I refill my cup." And
you do it in a way that is sustainable

00:53:22.026 --> 00:53:26.076
and is practical, and I appreciate
the honesty you brought forward of

00:53:26.076 --> 00:53:30.036
like that you weren't, everything
didn't always go perfectly, right?

00:53:30.036 --> 00:53:33.036
And sometimes you have to adapt,
and you, you don't know what you

00:53:33.036 --> 00:53:34.486
don't know until you experience it.

00:53:35.146 --> 00:53:40.256
And the way you kind of break things
down from doing everything to what's

00:53:40.386 --> 00:53:44.456
actually important and useful to you
was so practical, and I, I appreciate

00:53:44.456 --> 00:53:47.546
you chatting with me today, so thank
you so much for, for joining me.

00:53:47.656 --> 00:53:49.936
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:53:49.936 --> 00:53:52.876
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

00:53:53.156 --> 00:53:55.866
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:53:56.146 --> 00:53:59.116
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:53:59.166 --> 00:54:00.416
and what really matters right now.

00:54:00.726 --> 00:54:03.466
And if this conversation resonated,
please consider sending it to another

00:54:03.466 --> 00:54:04.486
dad who might need to hear it.

00:54:04.956 --> 00:54:06.416
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:54:06.526 --> 00:54:08.416
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.