Dave Albrechta on Redesigning Your Career Around What Matters

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Dave: You're not apologizing, you know,
admitting that you did something wrong.

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You're apologizing to s-, to acknowledge
the other person's experience and

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that, that you caused them to have an
experience which they legitimately had.

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And whether the thing you did was good
or bad or right or wrong doesn't matter.

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It's about acknowledging the other person.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here, we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today's guest is Dave Albrechta.

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Dave spent nearly a decade as a litigator
before realizing that the career he

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had worked so hard to build was slowly
pulling him away from the kind of

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husband and father he wanted to become.

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That realization led him to
redesign both his work and his life.

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Today, he's a mediator, coach, and
host of the Lawyers as Healers podcast,

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where he helps professionals navigate
burnout, conflict, career reinvention,

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and the pursuit of work that's aligned
with who they really want to be.

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Dave, welcome to Gap to Gig.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Dave: Yeah.

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Thanks so much for having me.

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I'm excited about the conversation.

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Michael: Me too.

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I appreciate that.

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So I'd love to start at the beginning

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: because I think your story is one
that a lot of dads will recognize, even if

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they're in completely different careers.

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You originally became a lawyer because
you wanted to fight injustice, right?

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What did success look like to you
at the beginning of your career?

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Dave: Yeah.

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I think success, you know, I, we, my
wife and I went to law school together

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and then opened a firm together.

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And so a lot of these things are
very, maybe more enmeshed than other

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people because my wife and I are, had
all these roles that we're balancing.

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And, you know, looking back on it, we had
very clear goals set for growing our firm.

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I mean, we, you know, I, I had planned
that after five years, I, I, we kinda set

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up the first five years to be our growth
and kind of figuring things out period.

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We knew it would take that long
to build kind of a sustainable,

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regular income and just get used
to the finances of the business.

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We were plaintiffs' lawyers,
which means you get paid on

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contingency, so you get paid only
if you win at the end of the case.

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So it was very hard to predict income.

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So we kinda set up five years
to figure that out, and then at

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that five-year mark, I was hoping
then to start growing and adding

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employees, potentially hiring lawyers.

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You know, at 10 years, I was hoping to
have, you know, at least a-, another

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couple lawyers and a couple staff people.

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And so, you know, success looked like
growing a firm and having a mid-size,

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small town law firm that, that people
respected and have a good name and do good

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work and be making good money, you know?

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Michael: Sure.

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Dave: It was fairly simple, I suppose,
but that's, yeah, that's really what

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it looked like a-, at the beginning.

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Michael: That's interesting.

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It, you know, to me it sounds like you,
you clearly had a path in mind, right?

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Of like, you know, this
is how we're gonna start.

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: We don't know
exactly how it's going to go.

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And, like you said, you were paid on
contingency, so you know, you couldn't

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know for sure kind of what your income
would be on a, you know, month-to-month,

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year-to-year basis, at least initially,
until you had some pattern or history

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to, to start to base that off of.

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But at some point,

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Dave: Right.

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Michael: you began to realize that the
career you built wasn't really creating

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the life that you actually wanted.

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Were there specific moments, or was it
more of a slow accumulation where you

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went from having this grand plan in
mind of what you were going to build

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for yourself and your family, you know,
with your wife, to realizing, "This

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isn't the direction I want to go"?

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Like, what was that like?

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W-, was it something specific that
happened, or was it more just like

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all these things coming together?

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Dave: Yeah, it was both actually.

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There was a slow build-up and
accumulation of moments that I just

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couldn't really tolerate anymore.

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Those were everything from just, you
know, waking up in the middle of the

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night thinking about cases in a cold
sweat thinking you missed a deadline,

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which was a really common thing.

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It, I think it is for most litigators.

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You know, in order to be a good
litigator and have, you know, at,

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at my max, I had a caseload of about
50 cases at a, at a time, all in

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different places within the process.

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But, you know, to have 50 active
clients, you're just, you just have

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to be thinking about it all the time.

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And even if you only have one, to,
to be a good litigating attorney,

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you just really have to be
constantly analyzing what's going on.

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So it's exhausting.

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So that was, that, you
know, that weighed on me.

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And there was a series of vacations
that all got interrupted by work.

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Those moments really bothered me.

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Did not like that.

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And, and again, when you're a small firm
and you're the only lawyer, you know,

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when the judge says you gotta show up,
you gotta show up, or when the opposing

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party files a motion, you gotta respond.

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So, that, that was unsettling.

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And then we had kids, our first
kid six years into our practice,

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and that really changed everything.

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So that was both a, a moment that
changed everything quickly and added

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to that list of growing little things.

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You know, not being able to be present as
much as I wanted to and, you know, putting

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kids in daycare s-, at, was about eight
months old when we did that at the start.

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And, and so you just begin feeling like
you're missing out on a really important

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part of your life and, and you're, and
at that point, your identity has shifted.

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And now I add parent, which is at
the top of the list of my identities,

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and yet it gets prioritized
lower than these other ones.

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So it just immediately
creates this, this rub.

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And then I had a f-, I had a big moment
in July of 2023 where I basically, there's

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a long story, I won't go into all of it,
but I, I essentially got a download or a

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vision or whatever you wanna call it of I
just can't, I'm, I can't keep doing this.

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I, I, it was a five-minute kind
of hit of like a, a very clear

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message that I needed to stop

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so there's a lot there,

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Michael: Yeah.

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Dave: but that was, that's the
shortest answer I can give.

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Michael: That's totally fair, right?

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There's so much going on
with your answer, right?

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Like this was,

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Dave: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: to me, it sounds
like you had a very,

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well, how do I say it?

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I guess to me this, you had a,
your life was consumed with work,

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right, from the sound of it.

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And there was no clear cutoff
between work and life for you.

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For you, it was you're at work,
you're thinking about work.

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When you're not at work, you
still have to think about work.

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It do, you couldn't, there
was no separation, right, of,

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: separation of church and state.

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There's no separation of
work and life for you, right?

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: Like, it was
something that was constant.

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I totally feel where you're coming from.

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I know when I was first starting
my business, and even to this

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day, there's no su-, no such
thing as a true vacation, right?

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Like I can go on

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: vacation, but I'm still thinking
about did that order get shipped?

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Did, you know, did I
reply to those emails?

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Like,

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: a new customer comes along,
don't care if I'm out of town.

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They don't know.

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They just want to know, can I get product?

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Can I get it in a timely manner?

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And I imagine for you with

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Dave: Right.

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Michael: legal clients, they come to you
with a question or concern, they want

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an answer from you in a timely manner.

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They don't care if you are vacationing
in a national park or vacationing,

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you know, halfway across the world.

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They just care that you are
there when they need you.

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And so, you,

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Dave: That's right.

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Michael: work is always there, even
if it's not top of mind, right?

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You could be enjoying a great
meal with your family on vacation.

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You could be, you know, chatting it
up, and then you get a ping like, "Oh,

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now I got to look at this message."
Like, you know in the back of your head

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something could come in at any moment now.

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Like there's always something
overhead kind of dragging you down.

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Dave: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: I think that's a very real
feeling, and I think particularly

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for those that are entrepreneurs,
those that are in management, those

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that may be in professional services,
whether it's being a lawyer, a doctor,

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whatever it may be, it's hard to fully
separate yourself from your work.

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And, I think, at least for me, there
has to be time and energy put towards

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myself in order for me to show up fully
in these different aspects of life,

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whether it's work or home or whatever.

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And if I am constantly 100% thinking
about work all the time, I don't have

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a chance to recharge my batteries.

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I don't have a chance to take care
of myself so that I can show up for

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work when it's work time, right?

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And I can't show up for
home when it's home time.

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So it makes a lot of sense to me, y-,
like your story and what you're saying.

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And then you, this is all happening,
it sounds like before you even

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be-, became a parent, right?

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Like, this was starting
or accumulating, right?

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And then you became a father
that was, you know, sort of

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another turning point for you.

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: And you mention, like,
you know, your priority was being

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a father, being a parent, right?

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That was, that became the
ultimate first priority, right?

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I think, I, I

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: Think every dad I talk to would
agree like, "Yes, being there for my

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family is like the number one thing."
But you can't just shut down the rest

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of your life just to be a parent, right?

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Like, you couldn't, I imagine you
couldn't just be like email all your

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clients and be like, "Sorry, I'm not
representing you anymore," and email

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the judges and be like, "I'm not
showing up to court anymore," right?

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Like, it's not something
that just happens overnight.

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So, when you had this sort of vision
or epiphany, how did you, what were

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kind of like the, the steps that
you took to go from like, "I am only

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thinking about work" to, "I need
to separate myself from the work"?

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Like how did you get from step zero to

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Dave: Yeah.

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Michael: step one and beyond?

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Dave: Yeah.

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Oh, it took a really, really long time.

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It was a, it was a slow process, or it's
felt like a long time, and it's been

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three years, you know, since that moment,
but which, you know, in some respects

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isn't that long, but it felt long.

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I, you know, had that moment.

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I, I came home that night and
w-, and told my wife, I'm like,

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"I think I've gotta stop."

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And I was, at that point, really
prepared to do exactly what you're

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talking about, just kinda burn
the whole thing to the ground and

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walk away from it like tomorrow.

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Michael: Right.

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Dave: That isn't possible, and my wife
very kindly talked me off the ledge.

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And, and I started by, you know, the
first question is, "Well, what am

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I gonna do if I'm not doing this?"

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You know?

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And that's where I started.

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And I started looking up, you know, how
can I, i-, when I got this vision, for

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lack of a better word it was a, it was one
of me doi-, doing more healing type work.

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I saw myself in the same office,
but I was helping people heal.

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And so I just looked that up.

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I looked up, you know, being a
lawyer and doing healing work.

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You know, what is that?

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Is that a thing?

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Do people do that?

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What does it look like?

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And I stumbled across this whole world
that I had no idea existed about lawyers

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doing, trying to, to practice differently.

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And so I found this book right
away called Lawyers as Peacemakers,

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which basically laid out how to
transition from a traditional

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practice to this new type of thing.

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So that was really helpful.

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And then I spent, like you say, I
can, I, I couldn't just walk away.

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There's, you know, lawyers
in big firms can do that.

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They can just say, "I quit,"
hand it all off to the other

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associates, and it was just me.

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So I had, it took a year and a half
to wind down all the cases that I had.

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And, and you know, there, there's
some ways I could've passed, tried

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to pass cases on to other people
and whatever, but I, I just decided

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I would finish what I started.

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And that year and a half was really
challenging because I was doing work that

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I knew I didn't, that I wasn't gonna do
anymore, but it was also really important

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in terms of my own processing and really
seeing what I, what I didn't like about

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it and beginning to kind of explore
with some new approaches and, you know,

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and a lot of therapy in the meantime.

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I hired a coach who actually
wrote the, was the author of that

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book, Kim Wright, and she coaches
lawyers through this transition to

00:14:02.874 --> 00:14:05.554
build a, a new practice like this.

00:14:06.614 --> 00:14:08.614
So, you know, lots of support.

00:14:08.634 --> 00:14:15.244
I had the support of my wife and family
and, and it was, it's been a challenging

00:14:15.804 --> 00:14:20.954
few years, you know, to get to that
place, and it, and it just took an immense

00:14:20.954 --> 00:14:29.684
amount of patience and keeping a clear
kind of guidepost or North Star about why

00:14:29.684 --> 00:14:33.024
am I doing this and where am I heading
and what do, what do I want my life

00:14:33.024 --> 00:14:37.304
to look like, and keeping those front
and center have been really important.

00:14:38.594 --> 00:14:39.544
And I'm still in it.

00:14:39.544 --> 00:14:44.664
I mean, look, I, I'm not any, by any
stretch of the imagination, like, to some

00:14:44.674 --> 00:14:50.154
magical promised land where all these
things are resolved, but I'm in a way

00:14:50.154 --> 00:14:52.414
better place than I was three years ago,

00:14:52.558 --> 00:14:52.738
Michael: Sure.

00:14:52.838 --> 00:14:52.898
Yeah.

00:14:52.898 --> 00:14:53.018
Dave: you know?

00:14:53.618 --> 00:14:58.218
Michael: What I appreciate about this
story is that you didn't, well, first of

00:14:58.218 --> 00:15:01.408
all, you didn't just scrap everything and,
you know, burn everything to the ground.

00:15:01.418 --> 00:15:05.768
Like, sure, pro-, you know,
you c-, kind of could have

00:15:05.768 --> 00:15:07.248
done it and there would've been

00:15:07.412 --> 00:15:07.702
Dave: Yeah.

00:15:07.878 --> 00:15:11.708
Michael: some hassles along the
way, but you, and you didn't just

00:15:11.738 --> 00:15:15.248
completely abandon your history either.

00:15:15.258 --> 00:15:20.108
You still practice law, but in
a different manner now, right?

00:15:20.148 --> 00:15:21.228
Like, I believe you do me-, y-,

00:15:21.428 --> 00:15:21.748
Dave: Yeah.

00:15:21.928 --> 00:15:24.736
Michael: you do mediation,
you do more of like,

00:15:24.786 --> 00:15:24.966
Dave: Mm-hmm.

00:15:25.178 --> 00:15:30.908
Michael: as you call it, healing work,
but within the legal space or the

00:15:30.908 --> 00:15:32.878
legal world to some degree, right?

00:15:33.118 --> 00:15:39.398
You took what you are already skilled
at, what you already have a history

00:15:39.398 --> 00:15:46.038
with and shaped it into something that
is your own, as opposed to, you know,

00:15:46.618 --> 00:15:51.758
either abandoning it completely or
just sticking with it and, you know,

00:15:52.198 --> 00:15:58.288
not improving your own happiness, your
own lifestyle, your own, the way you

00:15:58.288 --> 00:16:01.678
wi-, want to live and kind of what you
appreciate and are working towards.

00:16:01.858 --> 00:16:03.586
You found work that is meaningful for you

00:16:03.636 --> 00:16:03.956
Dave: Yeah.

00:16:04.288 --> 00:16:05.968
Michael: within the
space that you came from.

00:16:06.658 --> 00:16:11.028
Now, that's not for everybody but there
are, what I appreciate about your story

00:16:11.028 --> 00:16:15.568
is that you can change your circumstances.

00:16:15.568 --> 00:16:22.608
You can change you have without
this drastic, you know, change

00:16:22.608 --> 00:16:24.408
from one sphere to another.

00:16:24.418 --> 00:16:28.868
You can still take what your core
strengths are, what your, what you've

00:16:28.878 --> 00:16:32.598
studied, what you, the experiences
you've had, and still leverage them,

00:16:32.608 --> 00:16:36.288
but in a way that is different from
the approach you took originally.

00:16:36.608 --> 00:16:39.098
Dave: Yeah, you're exactly right,
and it's all about alignment.

00:16:39.098 --> 00:16:42.778
It's all about I, you know, I have
the skills and I have the skill set,

00:16:42.778 --> 00:16:48.638
but I, it, it, the way I was doing it
wasn't aligned with who I am in my core.

00:16:48.638 --> 00:16:53.298
And that, and, and going through this
process of figure that out, which has

00:16:53.298 --> 00:16:57.358
been messy and difficult and long, has
all been a part of the processing that I

00:16:57.378 --> 00:17:02.358
think is necessary when anyone's in this
kind of position of, you know, I ha-,

00:17:02.378 --> 00:17:09.528
I, realizing how deeply enmeshed being a
litigating trial attorney was in my ego.

00:17:09.528 --> 00:17:11.948
I, it was so important to who I was.

00:17:12.818 --> 00:17:16.418
It took a lot of work to unwind
all that and, and necessary work.

00:17:16.418 --> 00:17:19.028
Like you gotta, you
gotta do that hard work.

00:17:19.038 --> 00:17:23.788
Instead of the easy way out, in
my opinion, would've been walk

00:17:23.788 --> 00:17:25.908
away and go be an electrician,

00:17:26.146 --> 00:17:26.426
Michael: Yeah.

00:17:26.958 --> 00:17:28.118
Dave: you know, or, or whatever.

00:17:28.118 --> 00:17:31.478
Like, you know, just put it behind
me and forget about it and move on.

00:17:31.478 --> 00:17:34.128
But that stuff then follows you,
and you've never processed what

00:17:34.128 --> 00:17:38.548
it was that led to the difficulty
and led to the, you know, stuff.

00:17:38.548 --> 00:17:40.698
So to some degree, I was forced to do it.

00:17:40.738 --> 00:17:44.738
Looking back, I'm glad I was because it,
it, it helped me process all this stuff.

00:17:44.992 --> 00:17:47.832
Michael: And that's not to say that it
would be wrong if you decided, "Oh, I

00:17:47.832 --> 00:17:49.002
don't want to practice law anymore."

00:17:49.066 --> 00:17:49.476
Dave: Totally.

00:17:49.942 --> 00:17:51.352
Michael: "I wanna be an
electrician," or, "I want to be a

00:17:51.352 --> 00:17:54.602
swim instructor," or whatever it is
that you might want to be, right?

00:17:54.612 --> 00:17:56.012
Like, that is okay, too.

00:17:56.012 --> 00:18:01.202
But for you, you found, you know, the
more proper alignment, as you, you said

00:18:01.202 --> 00:18:02.752
it was, you know, more aligned with

00:18:03.082 --> 00:18:03.362
Dave: Yeah.

00:18:03.542 --> 00:18:03.962
Michael: what you're trying to do.

00:18:04.052 --> 00:18:08.462
Like you found work that is meaningful
to you, but I also, I think,

00:18:08.586 --> 00:18:09.426
Dave: Yeah, that's right.

00:18:09.712 --> 00:18:13.192
Michael: and correct me if I'm wrong,
but my guess is you wouldn't know what

00:18:13.192 --> 00:18:16.972
would be properly aligned for you,
particularly in the legal space, until

00:18:16.972 --> 00:18:19.322
you've experienced what you experienced.

00:18:19.432 --> 00:18:23.042
You thought probably when you got out of
law school like, "Okay, you know, this

00:18:23.042 --> 00:18:27.842
is a path that is interesting to me."
But without that y-, those following

00:18:27.842 --> 00:18:33.872
years of experience of practicing
these, you know, plaintiff law, that you

00:18:33.872 --> 00:18:39.662
wouldn't know that wasn't really going
to be meaningful enough to you, right?

00:18:39.772 --> 00:18:41.492
It took that experience of like,

00:18:41.642 --> 00:18:42.122
Dave: Yeah.

00:18:42.312 --> 00:18:44.962
Michael: "Okay, I've done this now.
This is not really the direction I

00:18:44.962 --> 00:18:47.492
want to go. This isn't, doesn't have
the meaning and the impact that I

00:18:47.492 --> 00:18:50.672
want for my life and for my family
and for my friends, like those closest

00:18:50.672 --> 00:18:54.802
to me." I, you know, but you wouldn't
know that until you did it, right?

00:18:54.832 --> 00:18:56.602
But once you did it and the part that,

00:18:56.658 --> 00:18:57.408
Dave: Absolutely.

00:18:57.462 --> 00:19:01.712
Michael: the part that I really appreciate
what you said earlier was that you

00:19:01.712 --> 00:19:03.742
learned what you didn't like, right?

00:19:03.742 --> 00:19:08.342
Like you had this experience of, "This
is not what I want to do," right?

00:19:08.352 --> 00:19:11.732
And as you were unwinding these cases
and, you know, separating yourself

00:19:11.742 --> 00:19:16.632
from the, the original track that you
were down, you realized, "Okay, these

00:19:16.632 --> 00:19:19.482
are the things that I w-, don't want
to be doing with my life," right?

00:19:19.482 --> 00:19:22.432
It wasn't just like, "This is the
direction I want to go," but it was like

00:19:22.452 --> 00:19:26.292
also, you know, "These are the guardrails
I'm gonna put in place so that I can

00:19:26.602 --> 00:19:28.242
be more aligned going forward," right?

00:19:28.522 --> 00:19:30.252
This is, "I don't want to

00:19:30.330 --> 00:19:30.770
Dave: Yeah.

00:19:31.422 --> 00:19:35.692
Michael: be managing 50 different
cases, right, in front of courts

00:19:35.702 --> 00:19:39.622
and ha-, be at the mercy of a
judge's schedule all the time.

00:19:39.632 --> 00:19:40.952
Like, those are the things
that aren't working for me.

00:19:40.982 --> 00:19:45.852
I want to find work that is better,
not just aligned, but will give me

00:19:45.852 --> 00:19:49.672
more purpose, more meaning to what
I do on a day-to-day basis," right?

00:19:50.292 --> 00:19:51.658
I-, i-, is that a fair assumption

00:19:51.658 --> 00:19:52.018
Dave: Yeah.

00:19:52.052 --> 00:19:56.322
Michael: in terms of like how you assess
this as you went through the process?

00:19:56.810 --> 00:19:59.120
Dave: Yeah, it, it absolutely is.

00:19:59.120 --> 00:20:00.850
And, and there's,

00:20:02.980 --> 00:20:05.180
I guess I would say that

00:20:07.200 --> 00:20:08.390
there's this,

00:20:12.338 --> 00:20:18.238
dynamic that happened as I was going
through that space of, 'cause look,

00:20:18.248 --> 00:20:22.838
I, I liked, there are aspects of being
a lawyer that I absolutely loved.

00:20:23.928 --> 00:20:25.868
There, I didn't hate all of it.

00:20:27.358 --> 00:20:32.878
And it was difficult to parse those
out and figure out, all right,

00:20:32.878 --> 00:20:36.338
what, what parts of this really
kinda light me up and make me feel

00:20:36.338 --> 00:20:40.278
alive and like I'm contributing,
and what parts don't feel good?

00:20:40.888 --> 00:20:45.328
And, and so in that respect, it was
really helpful to have that time period

00:20:45.338 --> 00:20:48.258
to do that, and really intentionally.

00:20:49.408 --> 00:20:54.178
And looking back, I realized that, you
know, those first five, six years of

00:20:54.178 --> 00:20:57.248
practice, I was just in survival mode.

00:20:57.258 --> 00:20:58.898
Like, I had just come out of law school.

00:20:58.908 --> 00:21:03.148
You're, not only are you, and my wife
and I took a very non-traditional path.

00:21:03.178 --> 00:21:06.518
Not many people open a law
firm after they graduate.

00:21:06.998 --> 00:21:10.478
There's, there's the kind of
an apprenticeship theory built

00:21:10.478 --> 00:21:12.008
into the practice of law.

00:21:12.378 --> 00:21:15.288
We kinda skipped over that and just
said, "Hey, we're gonna just do this."

00:21:15.358 --> 00:21:21.188
And, and so that, those first five
years we're not only worrying about

00:21:21.518 --> 00:21:24.798
running a business, we're also trying
to figure out how to practice law.

00:21:26.308 --> 00:21:30.538
And, and so there wasn't any time
or space to think about, "Do I

00:21:30.538 --> 00:21:36.868
like this? Is this me?" I didn't
really have the, the luxury in that

00:21:36.868 --> 00:21:39.428
period of time to, to reflect on it.

00:21:40.778 --> 00:21:44.458
And, and so by the time I hit five,
six years, I was getting really

00:21:44.458 --> 00:21:47.118
comfortable in the work that I was
doing, and you feel like you're figuring

00:21:47.118 --> 00:21:49.588
it out and getting a grasp on things.

00:21:50.148 --> 00:21:53.828
And that, I think, gave me some space
and time to be like, "All right, now

00:21:53.828 --> 00:21:58.318
I'm, I've got some time to really think
about this." And, and realizing that

00:21:58.318 --> 00:22:01.398
the anxiety is no longer just from

00:22:03.758 --> 00:22:05.958
j-, because I've never
done this before, right?

00:22:06.228 --> 00:22:10.198
So when you go to a certain
hearing or have to file a motion

00:22:10.198 --> 00:22:13.878
or appear at a w-, whatever it
is, there's anxiety around that.

00:22:13.888 --> 00:22:16.338
For those first five years, I thought
it was just 'cause, well, it's

00:22:16.338 --> 00:22:17.318
'cause I haven't done this before.

00:22:17.318 --> 00:22:19.988
It's the first time I've ever done
this, so obviously I'm gonna be nervous.

00:22:20.488 --> 00:22:27.438
When you do it five, 10, 15 times and
you're still feeling these really big

00:22:27.438 --> 00:22:30.598
feelings around it, I'm like, "Okay,
this isn't I don't know what I'm

00:22:30.598 --> 00:22:36.538
doing. It is about something else."
And it's deep, deeply uncomfortable.

00:22:36.538 --> 00:22:40.338
And so that was another thing that
led to me beginning to question this.

00:22:41.638 --> 00:22:46.618
And, yeah, and then I, I actually
kept a journal through that period

00:22:47.538 --> 00:22:54.048
because I, I knew going into this that
I was gonna feel I, I knew that I was

00:22:54.048 --> 00:22:57.508
going to feel a pull at some time in
the future to go back to the work.

00:22:59.292 --> 00:23:03.962
There's something that really attracts
me to it, and, and so I kept this journal

00:23:03.962 --> 00:23:09.292
where I was basically writing to my
future self, "Hey, this happened today.

00:23:09.322 --> 00:23:11.322
This is why I don't
wanna be doing this work.

00:23:11.642 --> 00:23:13.802
The, these things are unavoidable.

00:23:13.832 --> 00:23:17.652
You have to deal with it, and it's
awful, and I don't like it, and I don't

00:23:17.652 --> 00:23:23.942
wanna be doing this." And as a reminder
to my future self of why I'm going

00:23:23.942 --> 00:23:25.472
through this, which was really helpful.

00:23:25.472 --> 00:23:30.552
And, and a lot of it, frankly,
turned out to be more systemic issues

00:23:30.692 --> 00:23:35.682
with the legal system that I was
struggling with than the actual work.

00:23:36.352 --> 00:23:40.582
And that's why, what led me to
start the podcast and explore some

00:23:40.582 --> 00:23:41.972
of that and say, "Why," you know.

00:23:41.972 --> 00:23:46.342
"What is it about the way we're doing
this as lawyers that just doesn't

00:23:46.342 --> 00:23:48.102
feel good for so many people?"

00:23:48.762 --> 00:23:53.482
And it's, it's much bigger structural
systemic stuff than it is I just don't

00:23:53.492 --> 00:23:55.462
like, you know, what I was doing.

00:23:55.462 --> 00:23:58.302
So there was some real nuance
to what it was I didn't like and

00:23:58.322 --> 00:23:59.402
trying to figure all that out.

00:24:00.830 --> 00:24:01.570
Michael: So interesting.

00:24:01.570 --> 00:24:09.260
It, the way you use your journal is a, not
ju-, I imagine when you were journaling

00:24:09.500 --> 00:24:14.140
in that moment, it was of benefit to you
'cause it was helping you express your

00:24:14.140 --> 00:24:21.220
thoughts, you know, in a safer space
for yourself, but to go back now and be

00:24:21.220 --> 00:24:25.830
like, "Okay, I know I'm gonna have those
urges to practice some of that work.

00:24:25.830 --> 00:24:30.940
I'm gonna miss some of the things that I
did." But now having that journal to be

00:24:30.940 --> 00:24:35.000
like, "Oh, okay, this is why I left that.

00:24:35.290 --> 00:24:38.750
Am I really comfortable going
back to that space again?

00:24:38.750 --> 00:24:43.670
Like, should I heed my previous warnings?"
Like, I think very few people have that

00:24:44.260 --> 00:24:48.750
resource available to them because in
the moment, usually it's like, "Okay,

00:24:49.160 --> 00:24:54.340
I'm so deeply uncomfortable in the
situation that I'm in," or, "I'm so

00:24:54.340 --> 00:24:57.670
disinterested in what I'm doing, I
just wanna get away from it." Right?

00:24:57.690 --> 00:24:59.380
"I just wanna get out of it." Right?

00:24:59.400 --> 00:25:03.350
And so you maybe don't process it in
the moment, and then you don't have

00:25:03.350 --> 00:25:09.060
that process or what the results of
that process to reflect back on later.

00:25:09.060 --> 00:25:13.630
So I find it super interesting, like,
how you used journaling, not just to

00:25:13.630 --> 00:25:19.200
help you in the moment, but to help
your future self remember what those

00:25:19.200 --> 00:25:23.060
feelings were like, so that you can
make a more informed decision should you

00:25:23.060 --> 00:25:26.710
decide to go back to or consider going
back to what you were doing previously.

00:25:27.530 --> 00:25:28.550
And to me, it's like,

00:25:28.744 --> 00:25:29.054
Dave: Yeah.

00:25:30.180 --> 00:25:33.470
Michael: I love the forethought
in that, but you also have like,

00:25:33.732 --> 00:25:34.092
Dave: Mm-hmm.

00:25:34.750 --> 00:25:38.600
Michael: you've clearly developed
values for yourself, right?

00:25:38.600 --> 00:25:38.998
Of like,

00:25:39.048 --> 00:25:39.428
Dave: Mm-hmm.

00:25:39.620 --> 00:25:43.290
Michael: "This is what's important
to me. This is, these are

00:25:43.290 --> 00:25:44.580
the things th-, that matter."

00:25:46.900 --> 00:25:52.120
I imagine that, and I know you said,
like, when you had kids, your, your

00:25:52.120 --> 00:25:56.150
preferences sort, not your preferences,
but your priorities changed, right?

00:25:57.256 --> 00:25:57.516
Dave: Yeah.

00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:05.232
Michael: And, there was sort of a
growing gap between, and you've, you've

00:26:05.242 --> 00:26:07.512
said this before, but like there's
a growing gap between the values you

00:26:07.512 --> 00:26:11.182
are teaching your kids at home or
demonstrating to your kids at home and

00:26:11.192 --> 00:26:13.532
how you are spending your time at work.

00:26:13.882 --> 00:26:18.812
And I imagine that's still something
that you battle with on a regular basis.

00:26:18.812 --> 00:26:23.372
It doesn't just necessarily go away
of like maybe you're the perfect

00:26:23.932 --> 00:26:28.072
father/lawyer/healer, you know,
that's got it all, all figured out.

00:26:28.072 --> 00:26:33.272
But I imagine that there is, you know,
you're trying to, and your values, I

00:26:33.282 --> 00:26:37.702
think, change over time, too, as your,
your goals change and your aspirations

00:26:37.702 --> 00:26:44.322
change of like the values that you
want your kids to grow up with and

00:26:44.412 --> 00:26:48.202
how you actually spend your days,
whether that's at work or with them

00:26:48.222 --> 00:26:50.682
or on yourself or in your community.

00:26:50.992 --> 00:26:56.532
How do you sort of unpack the, that gap
that kind of grows between the values you

00:26:56.542 --> 00:27:04.032
want to demonstrate at home and the values
that, and kind of just how you act at,

00:27:04.142 --> 00:27:08.042
in any of your aspects of life, whether
that's work or home, wherever it may be?

00:27:10.024 --> 00:27:10.654
Dave: Yeah.

00:27:10.754 --> 00:27:13.714
Yeah, there's a few parts to this answer.

00:27:13.714 --> 00:27:17.594
I mean, one is, yeah, I've
certainly not figured it out.

00:27:17.604 --> 00:27:23.384
But we, but, you know, for example, we
last year decided to homeschool our kids,

00:27:23.384 --> 00:27:30.674
and so we're you know, and, and part of
that honestly feels like a kind of trying

00:27:30.674 --> 00:27:37.004
to make up for time, for lost time in,
in that we were both working a lot early

00:27:37.004 --> 00:27:41.144
on and, and we, you know, you stop, and
I think a lot of parents go through this

00:27:41.174 --> 00:27:44.054
where you're like: "Oh my God, they're,
they're getting huge, and we're missing

00:27:44.694 --> 00:27:51.994
these, you know, precious moments." And,
and so it's been nice to kind of reclaim

00:27:51.994 --> 00:27:53.154
some of that and say, "You know what?

00:27:53.154 --> 00:27:56.224
We're just gonna, we're gonna hang
out as a family to, for a few years."

00:27:57.044 --> 00:27:58.214
That's been amazing.

00:27:59.004 --> 00:28:03.994
And then the other part, the other answer
to that is, you know, this question

00:28:05.334 --> 00:28:11.874
about what values am I exhibiting and
demonstrating for my kids was another

00:28:12.314 --> 00:28:17.244
huge piece that I didn't mention
specifically to your earlier question of

00:28:17.244 --> 00:28:19.514
what led me to step away from this work.

00:28:19.574 --> 00:28:26.664
And what was happening is that when my
kids were in, in 2023, I guess they were

00:28:26.664 --> 00:28:28.784
like three and six, somewhere in there.

00:28:29.344 --> 00:28:36.224
And they, you know, the two boys,
and they began having some conflicts

00:28:36.424 --> 00:28:36.564
Michael: Sure.

00:28:38.134 --> 00:28:39.214
Dave: around the house.

00:28:39.244 --> 00:28:45.274
And, you know, little, little things, toys
and taking turns and all the usual stuff.

00:28:46.164 --> 00:28:51.884
And so I found myself saying, as, as we do
as parents, saying the same thing over and

00:28:51.884 --> 00:28:55.554
over and over again to these scenarios.

00:28:56.064 --> 00:29:00.544
And one of the things was teaching
them how to apologize and walking

00:29:00.554 --> 00:29:02.334
through conflicts with them.

00:29:02.334 --> 00:29:06.064
And so, you know, they'd come, both come
screaming to me about something that had

00:29:06.064 --> 00:29:11.194
happened, and it's okay, and sit down,
and what happened, get each side's story,

00:29:11.434 --> 00:29:15.984
you know, how it made them feel, all
the things, and then talk to them about

00:29:16.124 --> 00:29:19.044
apologizing and walk them through that.

00:29:19.044 --> 00:29:21.554
I'd get the usual responses, "Well,
I didn't do it. I shouldn't have

00:29:21.554 --> 00:29:26.034
to say sorry." And, you know, we'd,
we'd walk through, a-, and I, I

00:29:26.034 --> 00:29:30.744
began realizing that my belief or
system around that is that apologies

00:29:30.744 --> 00:29:32.684
have nothing to do with admissions.

00:29:32.814 --> 00:29:35.874
It's, apologizing is not admitting guilt.

00:29:35.934 --> 00:29:38.914
Those are two very different
things, or admitting fault.

00:29:39.424 --> 00:29:42.674
And our society has confused
them and has put them together.

00:29:42.734 --> 00:29:47.864
And, and so, you know, there's a
lot of discussion about this is,

00:29:47.954 --> 00:29:51.854
you're not apologizing, you know,
admitting that you did something wrong.

00:29:51.884 --> 00:29:56.634
You're apologizing to s-, to acknowledge
the other person's experience and

00:29:56.634 --> 00:30:01.884
that, that you caused them to have an
experience which they legitimately had.

00:30:02.354 --> 00:30:06.274
And whether the thing you did was good
or bad or right or wrong doesn't matter.

00:30:06.274 --> 00:30:08.574
It's about acknowledging the other person.

00:30:08.964 --> 00:30:12.654
Anyways, I'm having this conversation
with them like at least a d-, on a

00:30:12.654 --> 00:30:19.294
daily basis, and then going to work and
doing the complete opposite for adults.

00:30:21.364 --> 00:30:26.994
And as a lawyer, I'm encour-, you know,
y-, you litigate, you're just fighting.

00:30:26.994 --> 00:30:33.322
You're, you're going into these battle
zones where, you know, you, you don't

00:30:33.332 --> 00:30:35.252
back down, you never give an inch.

00:30:35.272 --> 00:30:39.642
You, you fight and scrap and claw
your way through these cases.

00:30:40.032 --> 00:30:42.102
You prevent the parties
from talking to each other.

00:30:42.102 --> 00:30:43.982
You tell them not to talk to each other.

00:30:44.462 --> 00:30:50.022
You know, we use tactics that
are inherently escalatory, you

00:30:50.022 --> 00:30:54.532
know, whether w-, we intend for
them to be or not, they just are.

00:30:55.032 --> 00:31:00.092
And, and the system is just a really
horrible model of healthy conflict.

00:31:00.662 --> 00:31:04.682
It's just a, it just doesn't
model conflict well for people.

00:31:04.682 --> 00:31:09.812
And, and so that was a huge
thing for me that I realized.

00:31:09.812 --> 00:31:14.322
And I'm like, "Oh my God, I'm, I, this
is not how I would want my kids to

00:31:14.322 --> 00:31:20.112
handle conflict," yet I go to work and,
and advise clients to do the opposite

00:31:20.112 --> 00:31:21.772
of what I want them to be doing.

00:31:23.392 --> 00:31:28.762
And I don't wanna, you know, as lawyers,
we just send these ripples of fear and

00:31:28.762 --> 00:31:35.032
anxiety and anger and, and revenge and
all these, like, really low negative

00:31:37.632 --> 00:31:39.872
emotions out into the world.

00:31:40.542 --> 00:31:43.722
You know, nobody wants to get a
letter from a lawyer, let alone one

00:31:43.722 --> 00:31:47.372
that says, "We're gonna sue you," and
that's what I was doing for a living.

00:31:47.372 --> 00:31:51.372
And so I just, I just didn't,
it just didn't fit anymore.

00:31:51.372 --> 00:31:55.082
I didn't want to be sending
that energy out into the world.

00:31:55.082 --> 00:31:58.602
I didn't want my kids to be, see me
sending that energy out into the world

00:31:59.912 --> 00:32:04.532
and, and really wanted to help people,
you know, approach conflict differently.

00:32:04.572 --> 00:32:09.912
So it's a great question, and it, it's a
k-, enormous part of this story for me.

00:32:10.080 --> 00:32:10.280
Michael: Sure.

00:32:10.500 --> 00:32:18.330
That is such a wild dichotomy to me of
the message you're sending your children

00:32:18.360 --> 00:32:25.640
of recognize the other party, apologize,
and using apology as a mechanism to

00:32:25.930 --> 00:32:31.148
recognize the experience of the other
side against what you're doing at

00:32:31.198 --> 00:32:31.488
Dave: Yeah.

00:32:31.620 --> 00:32:36.400
Michael: work which was the opposite,
which was more focusing on the, I don't

00:32:36.400 --> 00:32:39.380
know if this is the right term, but
accusatory nature of things of like,

00:32:39.934 --> 00:32:40.254
Dave: Yeah.

00:32:40.404 --> 00:32:40.834
Oh, yeah.

00:32:40.860 --> 00:32:44.360
Michael: The other side did this,
so now we need to be aggressive.

00:32:44.360 --> 00:32:46.890
We need to send letters.

00:32:46.890 --> 00:32:48.600
We need to make claims.

00:32:48.600 --> 00:32:53.810
We need to dig into files and, you
know, find everything they did wrong,

00:32:53.982 --> 00:32:54.342
Dave: Yeah.

00:32:54.560 --> 00:32:55.300
Michael: where as opposed to…

00:32:55.522 --> 00:32:58.702
Dave: it's all about blame and,
yeah, pointing the finger and

00:32:58.702 --> 00:33:01.012
proving fault on the other side.

00:33:01.012 --> 00:33:02.192
Yeah, it's the complete opposite.

00:33:02.382 --> 00:33:02.612
Yeah.

00:33:02.918 --> 00:33:06.658
Michael: Yeah, that is the probably
the ultimate opposing sides.

00:33:06.738 --> 00:33:08.598
I, y-, you know,

00:33:08.648 --> 00:33:09.378
Dave: Yeah, yeah.

00:33:09.578 --> 00:33:11.538
Michael: usually, I, I'm thinking about
that question, I'm thinking of like, okay,

00:33:11.538 --> 00:33:16.818
well, maybe I'm modeling behavior that
for my kids that, you know, I tell them

00:33:16.818 --> 00:33:18.218
one thing, but I'm doing the opposite.

00:33:19.318 --> 00:33:22.750
This is like on a whole new level,
right, 'cause it's, you're taking it

00:33:22.750 --> 00:33:22.920
Dave: Yeah.

00:33:23.870 --> 00:33:23.990
Right.

00:33:24.048 --> 00:33:30.978
Michael: from just a, a maybe a mundane
family moment to like big time legal

00:33:30.998 --> 00:33:36.928
apparatus of, you know, lawsuits
and filings and court hearings and

00:33:37.268 --> 00:33:39.148
trials and, and all these things.

00:33:39.194 --> 00:33:39.214
Dave: Yeah.

00:33:39.698 --> 00:33:44.038
Michael: But the, the message, you're,
you're focusing on the, the, the same

00:33:44.048 --> 00:33:48.048
thematic message, even if they're the
opposite sides of that message, right?

00:33:48.048 --> 00:33:48.718
One is like

00:33:49.546 --> 00:33:49.636
Dave: Yeah.

00:33:50.008 --> 00:33:54.578
Michael: apologize and recognize
and work together to move up, move

00:33:54.578 --> 00:33:59.788
on to a solution against tear 'em
apart and get everything you can and,

00:34:00.348 --> 00:34:01.228
you know, there's only one winner.

00:34:01.278 --> 00:34:01.628
Dave: Yeah.

00:34:02.208 --> 00:34:03.948
Michael: Whereas is that really,

00:34:03.966 --> 00:34:04.236
Dave: Yeah.

00:34:04.308 --> 00:34:05.668
Michael: is that really what
we wanna teach our kids?

00:34:06.258 --> 00:34:10.648
Like, yes, we should get, kids should
have a competitive go-get-em spirit

00:34:10.658 --> 00:34:12.978
to be able to accomplish things.

00:34:12.978 --> 00:34:17.138
We want them to be self-motivated,
but not necessarily self-motivated

00:34:17.168 --> 00:34:20.408
at the sacrifice of others
or the wellbeing of others.

00:34:21.528 --> 00:34:22.578
And I, I think that

00:34:22.878 --> 00:34:23.698
Dave: Yeah, that's it.

00:34:24.570 --> 00:34:25.110
Michael: yeah, it, it,

00:34:25.238 --> 00:34:25.508
Dave: Yeah.

00:34:25.720 --> 00:34:33.500
Michael: like that, that is a,
a very stark vision of like how

00:34:33.500 --> 00:34:37.510
we can, you know, what we want
for our kids versus what we do.

00:34:37.510 --> 00:34:41.360
And I hadn't thought of it in
the, y-, your example, to me,

00:34:41.360 --> 00:34:42.790
is just, it's very eye-opening.

00:34:42.800 --> 00:34:48.130
It's very clear of, like, okay, these
are the things as dads, like what, what

00:34:48.130 --> 00:34:49.770
can we control and what can't we control?

00:34:49.770 --> 00:34:53.240
'Cause th-, we, the things we can't
control, we can't do anything about,

00:34:53.750 --> 00:34:58.140
but we can control, you know, how
we present ourselves to our kids.

00:34:58.140 --> 00:35:03.870
We can control the messages we send to
them and the values that are important

00:35:03.880 --> 00:35:12.200
to us that we hope that we can pass down
to them, and that goes not just what you

00:35:12.200 --> 00:35:17.160
do in front of them, but also what you
do when they're away from you, like when

00:35:17.160 --> 00:35:18.540
you're at work because I imagine that

00:35:19.070 --> 00:35:19.350
Dave: Yeah.

00:35:19.630 --> 00:35:23.070
Michael: When you're making some of
these filings and you're making demands

00:35:23.070 --> 00:35:27.960
of the other side, you carry some of
that home with you, and that is going

00:35:27.960 --> 00:35:33.340
to seep out to some degree in your
interactions with your family, right?

00:35:33.340 --> 00:35:36.630
Whe-, or, with your kids, with your
spouse, with your, your friends, your

00:35:36.640 --> 00:35:37.670
extended family, whatever it may be.

00:35:37.670 --> 00:35:39.880
Like there is no on/off switch.

00:35:39.880 --> 00:35:42.760
Like we talked about this early on,
like, you know, you were consumed

00:35:42.770 --> 00:35:44.430
by work for a very long time.

00:35:44.430 --> 00:35:45.450
You're always thinking about it.

00:35:45.470 --> 00:35:49.630
So I imagine that, you know, on those
stressful days at work when you're

00:35:49.630 --> 00:35:53.020
demanding things to the other side,
it's a lot harder to communicate that

00:35:53.340 --> 00:35:58.720
softer message of, "Hey, you know, you
and your brother, you guys are on the

00:35:58.720 --> 00:36:01.770
same team. You guys might not think
it in the moment when you guys are

00:36:01.770 --> 00:36:05.530
fighting over a toy." And look, I grew
up with an older brother, I get it.

00:36:05.530 --> 00:36:11.020
Like sibling rivalry and the, you know, we
were in conflict all the time growing up,

00:36:11.210 --> 00:36:12.770
but we get along just fine today, right?

00:36:12.770 --> 00:36:14.990
Like we've, we've figured
it out and yeah, we have our

00:36:14.990 --> 00:36:16.480
disagreements, but we know how to,

00:36:18.530 --> 00:36:21.960
how to work around those and how to
always come back to what is actually

00:36:21.960 --> 00:36:23.880
important to us at the end of the day.

00:36:24.820 --> 00:36:28.580
And one thing I, I, I want to
make sure we cover, y-, you know,

00:36:29.420 --> 00:36:31.490
isn't just you and your kids.

00:36:31.690 --> 00:36:34.390
You've talked a lot about your wife.

00:36:34.540 --> 00:36:37.250
You know, she's part of
this journey, too, right?

00:36:37.250 --> 00:36:39.440
You guys are doing this together.

00:36:39.870 --> 00:36:42.890
You guys made decisions together in
terms of, like, starting your own law

00:36:42.890 --> 00:36:45.600
firm and changing the direction of it.

00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:49.850
How did the two of you navigate,
you know, redesigning your work

00:36:49.870 --> 00:36:51.620
and your family life together?

00:36:51.620 --> 00:36:54.540
'Cause oftentimes it's easy for us to talk
about, like, this is what I did, this is,

00:36:54.920 --> 00:36:59.560
you know, this is what happened to me, but
oftentimes, and not for everybody, right?

00:36:59.560 --> 00:37:02.600
And I've been divorced, I've been a single
dad for a period of time, but I, you know,

00:37:02.600 --> 00:37:07.170
I'm remarried now, but, like, oftentimes,
we have a partner in all this, right?

00:37:07.220 --> 00:37:13.560
And they have a, a, a large impact,
probably the largest impact on, you

00:37:13.560 --> 00:37:17.890
know, how we decide what to do and what
we decide on what's important to us.

00:37:17.890 --> 00:37:22.010
So how did the two of you navigate
all of this together, all these big

00:37:22.010 --> 00:37:26.830
decisions that you made, and sort of
figuring out, like, what comes first and

00:37:26.980 --> 00:37:29.930
how to adjust as your seasons change?

00:37:33.854 --> 00:37:34.974
Dave: Yeah, it's,

00:37:37.182 --> 00:37:49.122
It's a big question, and the, the answer
I'm, I'm, I'm really lucky that we are,

00:37:50.082 --> 00:37:52.342
have gone through things at the same time.

00:37:52.612 --> 00:38:00.212
You know, a lot of this, a lot of this
really is just seasons of life and, and

00:38:00.232 --> 00:38:06.752
I'm, I've honestly, I just feel really
fortunate that that we've just been synced

00:38:06.762 --> 00:38:13.412
up in, in those ways and recognizing
and, and like seeing this, going

00:38:13.422 --> 00:38:20.302
through this has been really eye-opening
in terms of recognizing how easy it

00:38:20.302 --> 00:38:22.142
is to just grow apart from someone.

00:38:22.572 --> 00:38:27.502
And, you know, it, it's just a
natural thing and, and I just feel

00:38:27.502 --> 00:38:31.612
like I just got lucky that we didn't,
and that we kind of went in the

00:38:31.612 --> 00:38:32.942
same direction at the same time.

00:38:33.672 --> 00:38:41.072
If, if we weren't on the same page in
this, I think, I don't, I don't know

00:38:41.242 --> 00:38:45.702
if, I don't know how it would've gone
if we… It, I, it, it's hard to imagine

00:38:46.682 --> 00:38:50.942
preserving a marriage while if, if
your identity and values are shifting

00:38:50.942 --> 00:38:57.262
and, and, and not that my identity, my
identity shifted, my values did not.

00:38:57.262 --> 00:39:00.632
I think I just became aware of my
values and began acting on them.

00:39:01.262 --> 00:39:06.142
And, anyways, the, the answer to
the question is that we've just

00:39:06.152 --> 00:39:09.972
been aligned and, and are going
through it at the same time.

00:39:11.372 --> 00:39:15.692
I kind of had the, the initial hit of
like, "I just can't do this anymore."

00:39:15.932 --> 00:39:18.912
She'd been feeling the same way
about the work for a long time.

00:39:19.482 --> 00:39:26.102
And we, when we hired that coach, we
hired the coach together because the

00:39:26.512 --> 00:39:30.702
firm that we operated together and, and
all the things, so we're like, "We might

00:39:30.702 --> 00:39:37.622
as well do this, you know, be in the
room for it." And she ended up, through

00:39:37.682 --> 00:39:43.322
coaching, she actually ended up turning
her license off and just stepping away.

00:39:44.362 --> 00:39:49.972
And it became very, for, clear for her
as a mom that she really needed, I talked

00:39:49.972 --> 00:39:52.062
earlier about kind of reclaiming time.

00:39:53.422 --> 00:39:54.752
She really needed that.

00:39:54.852 --> 00:39:59.332
And so in that year and a half when I
was winding things down, she basically

00:39:59.332 --> 00:40:05.142
took a sabbatical and just turned
her practice off entirely and, and

00:40:05.142 --> 00:40:06.862
was just with the kids full-time.

00:40:06.862 --> 00:40:07.882
And, and so,

00:40:10.052 --> 00:40:12.392
yeah, it hasn't, again,
it hasn't been easy.

00:40:12.392 --> 00:40:14.692
Like, I don't want any of
this to sound like it's been

00:40:14.772 --> 00:40:17.152
simple or a walk in the park.

00:40:17.152 --> 00:40:21.292
It's been a really challenging
three years, but I've been

00:40:21.792 --> 00:40:25.252
really fortunate that, that
we've just been on the same page.

00:40:25.272 --> 00:40:30.252
And we, we got married really young and,
and have just always been really good

00:40:30.252 --> 00:40:36.432
friends and, and our experience in law
school was this way, where if one of us

00:40:36.432 --> 00:40:42.542
was feeling really down or, you know,
you go through these phases of just

00:40:42.572 --> 00:40:46.542
struggling, the other person usually
was up, and we'd pick each other up.

00:40:46.542 --> 00:40:47.992
And that's how this has felt, too.

00:40:48.792 --> 00:40:51.442
Like we've just been there,
just been really supportive.

00:40:51.442 --> 00:40:54.912
So there's no magic sauce here.

00:40:55.312 --> 00:40:58.952
Honestly feels more like
luck to me than anything.

00:41:00.512 --> 00:41:01.052
Michael: That's totally fair.

00:41:01.102 --> 00:41:02.762
Dave: And I, I just feel really fortunate.

00:41:03.430 --> 00:41:03.890
Michael: Yeah, that's awesome.

00:41:03.890 --> 00:41:09.050
I think, you know, it's easy, I shouldn't
say it's easy, but you can find a

00:41:09.050 --> 00:41:11.590
partner with aligned values, right?

00:41:11.610 --> 00:41:11.950
Like,

00:41:13.162 --> 00:41:13.612
Dave: Yeah.

00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:18.790
Michael: in that is, that's the best when
you, your partner and yourself are aligned

00:41:18.790 --> 00:41:20.480
in terms of like what's meaningful to you,

00:41:20.554 --> 00:41:20.984
Dave: Yeah.

00:41:21.140 --> 00:41:26.020
Michael: what is important, you know, what
are the things you want to build together.

00:41:26.370 --> 00:41:32.780
But what jumps out at me hearing you
talk about, you know, how your wife

00:41:32.810 --> 00:41:37.790
and you have been kind of in sync
together is that you support each other.

00:41:37.820 --> 00:41:42.800
When you went to her and said, "This
isn't working for me anymore. I need

00:41:42.800 --> 00:41:45.760
to make some sort of change," right?

00:41:45.850 --> 00:41:49.460
She was there to support you and
sa-, at the same, or similar, or

00:41:49.630 --> 00:41:52.270
close to that time, she also said,
"This isn't working for me either.

00:41:52.470 --> 00:41:55.270
I need to take a," you know, what
turned out to be a sabbatical, right?

00:41:55.380 --> 00:41:57.510
And you supported her in doing that.

00:41:58.030 --> 00:41:58.680
You know, the key

00:41:59.218 --> 00:41:59.238
Dave: Yeah.

00:41:59.248 --> 00:41:59.278
Right.

00:41:59.480 --> 00:42:04.100
Michael: here was that e-, when, like
you said, one of you was down, the

00:42:04.100 --> 00:42:08.770
other one would be up, and so you
were able to, whoever was up, kind

00:42:08.770 --> 00:42:12.890
of support the other and help them
get back to that, that higher level.

00:42:13.140 --> 00:42:17.820
And then when both of you are up,
now you've got this like super strong

00:42:18.020 --> 00:42:24.660
tandem to approach the life that you
guys to build, which I imagine just,

00:42:25.000 --> 00:42:25.390
Dave: Yeah.

00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:28.900
Michael: helps you deepen those values
of what's important to you, which

00:42:29.380 --> 00:42:34.650
obviously family first and, know, you
want that, and that, like, me also is

00:42:34.650 --> 00:42:38.270
so important because you're modeling
that behavior then for your kids, right?

00:42:38.990 --> 00:42:39.360
That you,

00:42:39.654 --> 00:42:40.034
Dave: Right.

00:42:40.354 --> 00:42:40.684
Yeah.

00:42:40.960 --> 00:42:42.470
Michael: you might not think
about like, "What do they see

00:42:42.470 --> 00:42:44.220
us doing together," right,

00:42:44.984 --> 00:42:45.324
Dave: Yeah.

00:42:45.360 --> 00:42:47.940
Michael: but they notice
that stuff more so than like

00:42:49.104 --> 00:42:49.144
Dave: They do.

00:42:49.370 --> 00:42:51.210
Michael: whatever you tell them to do,
like, "Go apologize to your brother."

00:42:52.990 --> 00:42:54.550
They may or may not listen, right?

00:42:54.810 --> 00:42:56.290
But, you know, over time, if they

00:42:56.406 --> 00:42:56.636
Dave: Yeah.

00:42:57.150 --> 00:42:59.950
Michael: See you supporting your wife and
your wife supporting you, they realize

00:42:59.950 --> 00:43:05.140
like, "This is what matters. Like, I
do need to take care of my family."

00:43:05.150 --> 00:43:08.600
The, the hope is that as they get older
and as they, you know, go off on their

00:43:08.600 --> 00:43:12.670
own, that they can have those same
values with their partners, with their

00:43:12.670 --> 00:43:15.180
families, and with their brothers, right?

00:43:15.190 --> 00:43:17.500
Like, you want them to
be able to support them

00:43:17.512 --> 00:43:17.842
Dave: Yeah.

00:43:17.900 --> 00:43:20.170
Michael: and at their time, like if
something happens to one brother, the

00:43:20.170 --> 00:43:23.460
other brother can be there to be like,
"Hey, what can I do to help you?" Like,

00:43:23.490 --> 00:43:25.110
"How can I lift you up right now?" Right,

00:43:25.160 --> 00:43:25.580
Dave: Yeah.

00:43:25.850 --> 00:43:26.460
Michael: and vice versa.

00:43:26.460 --> 00:43:26.910
And by

00:43:27.080 --> 00:43:28.010
Dave: It's, yeah.

00:43:28.430 --> 00:43:30.290
Michael: demonstrating that, y-,
I think it makes it much stronger

00:43:30.290 --> 00:43:33.580
and much more important than you
just telling them, "Hey, you always

00:43:33.580 --> 00:43:34.550
got to be there for each other."

00:43:36.662 --> 00:43:36.752
Dave: Yeah.

00:43:37.112 --> 00:43:42.442
It's a great point, and it, it goes
to this bigger theme also of just

00:43:43.942 --> 00:43:47.842
like they're very aware that we're
going through this transition.

00:43:47.852 --> 00:43:52.362
And it, and it is funny as a parent
how often we think kids aren't aware

00:43:52.362 --> 00:43:55.202
of what's going on, 'cause you're
just living in your bubble and you're

00:43:55.202 --> 00:43:58.972
doing your thing and, and you have
these interactions, but you're not

00:43:59.022 --> 00:44:03.142
telling them exple-, explicitly every
single thing that you're going through.

00:44:04.102 --> 00:44:09.522
Just as the other day, it was l, I
think it was like two days ago, I

00:44:09.522 --> 00:44:15.062
was talking to my older son and he,
he wanted, he was talking about tree

00:44:15.062 --> 00:44:17.112
houses, and he, he wanted a tree house.

00:44:17.782 --> 00:44:21.212
And he said to me, he said, "Hey,
you know, Dad, next time you change

00:44:21.212 --> 00:44:26.552
your job, can you be a carpenter
so you can build me a tree house?"

00:44:27.372 --> 00:44:30.582
And I, I just, l, I
just cracked up and, and

00:44:32.792 --> 00:44:38.042
yeah, I was like, "Yeah, definitely." And
the, the beauty of that, what I've, what

00:44:38.042 --> 00:44:43.462
it made me realize in that moment was
like one of the things I've demonstrated

00:44:43.462 --> 00:44:47.242
for them is you can control your life.

00:44:47.892 --> 00:44:50.252
Yeah, there are things you don't
have control over, but you have

00:44:50.332 --> 00:44:55.362
absolute control over everything
in your immediate sphere and orbit.

00:44:55.452 --> 00:45:02.482
And for them to know that you can be
flexible and fluid and it's okay that

00:45:02.482 --> 00:45:06.612
if something you've started, I, look,
I, you know, I was taught y-, you f-,

00:45:06.612 --> 00:45:12.372
you finish what you start and you never
quit and you, you know, make it all the

00:45:12.372 --> 00:45:16.832
way to the end, which I still think are
important values, but that has to be

00:45:16.842 --> 00:45:22.252
balanced with like if something doesn't
feel good and isn't working anymore, it's

00:45:22.252 --> 00:45:24.952
okay to stop and switch to something else.

00:45:26.302 --> 00:45:28.702
And that's an okay reason to quit.

00:45:28.876 --> 00:45:29.186
Michael: Right.

00:45:29.792 --> 00:45:33.112
Dave: I think there are bad reasons to
quit, but I think that's a good reason to,

00:45:33.242 --> 00:45:36.202
to stop doing something and, and pivot.

00:45:36.232 --> 00:45:40.622
And so like mo-, there's all the-, you're
right, that there's just all these values

00:45:40.622 --> 00:45:44.892
we model all the time that I think a
lot of times we're not even aware of.

00:45:45.972 --> 00:45:47.952
And kids pick up on this stuff, man.

00:45:47.952 --> 00:45:51.892
They are, they are quick and they're
smart and they're always listening and

00:45:52.682 --> 00:45:55.922
even if they're not listening, so much
of this stuff is also like somatic.

00:45:55.922 --> 00:45:56.642
It's very felt.

00:45:56.862 --> 00:45:58.602
They're very felt experiences.

00:45:59.592 --> 00:46:01.352
So I think it's a great
point you're making.

00:46:01.732 --> 00:46:02.272
Michael: Appreciate that.

00:46:02.282 --> 00:46:04.048
So one more question before
we get into the speed round.

00:46:04.078 --> 00:46:04.508
Dave: Yeah.

00:46:06.142 --> 00:46:06.382
Michael: You know,

00:46:06.458 --> 00:46:06.728
Dave: Yeah.

00:46:06.982 --> 00:46:08.712
Michael: if, we're, we're
talking about values and modeling

00:46:08.712 --> 00:46:10.572
these behaviors, is there

00:46:11.368 --> 00:46:11.378
Dave: Mm-hmm.

00:46:11.442 --> 00:46:18.482
Michael: one idea or mindset you hope that
as a dad you're, you're able to convey

00:46:18.482 --> 00:46:21.402
to your kids over the next many years?

00:46:22.402 --> 00:46:22.802
Dave: Yeah.

00:46:24.522 --> 00:46:26.762
I mean, everything I just said, for sure.

00:46:26.912 --> 00:46:32.982
And then I think, you know, one of the,
one of my kind of guiding principles for

00:46:32.982 --> 00:46:37.652
this time has been, y-, you know, that,
the, the quote, I think it's a Gandhi

00:46:37.652 --> 00:46:41.192
quote, "To be the change you want…"
Or, "Be the change you want to see in the

00:46:41.192 --> 00:46:48.652
world," ha-, has been something that's
felt really important to me and has kind

00:46:48.652 --> 00:46:51.842
of been the biggest picture of the shift.

00:46:51.872 --> 00:46:52.372
And

00:46:54.382 --> 00:46:58.462
there are plenty of ways for me to
justify the work I was doing before.

00:46:58.492 --> 00:47:02.932
I, I was doing civil rights work,
so we're, we're suing companies

00:47:02.942 --> 00:47:08.892
that, that discriminated and
harassed employees and stole wages.

00:47:08.892 --> 00:47:14.582
And I mean, it was work that I felt
really good about and, and important work.

00:47:14.582 --> 00:47:16.012
It, people need to do that.

00:47:16.022 --> 00:47:22.012
It's, it's not something that should go
away, but, but when I zoom all the way

00:47:22.012 --> 00:47:28.362
out and think about the world I want my
kids to see and grow up in and live in,

00:47:29.832 --> 00:47:31.932
I want them to have a peaceful existence.

00:47:31.932 --> 00:47:36.452
I, I don't, I, I don't want
there to be conflict everywhere.

00:47:37.342 --> 00:47:40.222
Conflict's natural, but I don't
wanna see countries blowing

00:47:40.222 --> 00:47:41.442
each other up all the time.

00:47:41.452 --> 00:47:48.882
And, and when I think about, when
I thought about that and realized,

00:47:49.132 --> 00:47:53.052
or for me, my perspective was that
the work I was doing were just

00:47:53.052 --> 00:47:55.832
these little microcosms of war

00:47:58.382 --> 00:48:04.692
and, and really high-conflict
situations that, that where resolution

00:48:04.692 --> 00:48:06.262
and peace were not the mission.

00:48:09.132 --> 00:48:11.142
You know, you can change,
I could change that.

00:48:11.152 --> 00:48:13.962
And so when I'm looking at it like,
"Yeah, I can't stop, I can't go over and

00:48:13.962 --> 00:48:19.752
stop wars, you know, around the world,"
but I can stop my own little battles

00:48:19.792 --> 00:48:22.132
and stop demonstrating these things.

00:48:22.162 --> 00:48:29.452
And so I think, I think the answer to
the question is that I, I hope that I

00:48:29.602 --> 00:48:36.522
provide them with the courage and the,
and the knowledge and the wisdom and

00:48:36.522 --> 00:48:41.302
the wherewithal to realize that you,
you can change things in your life.

00:48:41.312 --> 00:48:45.752
You, you always have the power to
change things and stop doing what

00:48:45.752 --> 00:48:48.732
you don't wanna be doing and start
doing what you'd love to be doing.

00:48:49.212 --> 00:48:56.562
And anything that's in your way
in those instances is more likely

00:48:56.562 --> 00:49:00.302
than not your own mind trying to
prevent you from doing things.

00:49:01.682 --> 00:49:07.932
And so I, I hope that my sincere
hope is that that's a way of

00:49:07.952 --> 00:49:09.762
being that they will adopt.

00:49:10.224 --> 00:49:10.614
Michael: Love that.

00:49:10.614 --> 00:49:13.824
It's, very powerful message.

00:49:13.854 --> 00:49:17.784
I, I think a very personal message,
but I think it's also a universal

00:49:18.004 --> 00:49:20.294
one for a lot of us as dads.

00:49:20.386 --> 00:49:20.726
Dave: Yeah.

00:49:21.334 --> 00:49:26.604
Michael: Just, we know, like I said
before, like we can only focus on what we

00:49:26.604 --> 00:49:29.794
can control or things that are out of our
control are out of our control, right?

00:49:30.244 --> 00:49:37.814
But it's important to remember that we
can be agents of change, and we can, you

00:49:37.814 --> 00:49:43.944
know, our kids can do things that beyond
what they initially imagined, right?

00:49:43.944 --> 00:49:48.544
That there is sometimes we put
restraints on ourselves or constraints

00:49:48.544 --> 00:49:52.914
on ourselves that we did not intend
to and don't realize until we pull

00:49:52.914 --> 00:49:53.884
those away and realize, you know what?

00:49:54.664 --> 00:49:55.354
We can do better.

00:49:55.354 --> 00:50:00.014
We can have a positive impact on the
world, and on others and, you know,

00:50:00.084 --> 00:50:03.254
to give our kids the confidence to
do that, I think is super important.

00:50:03.644 --> 00:50:05.232
So I'm gonna go from the super
important and the super serious

00:50:05.282 --> 00:50:05.502
Dave: Yeah.

00:50:05.504 --> 00:50:07.724
Michael: to the super
unserious of our speed round.

00:50:07.724 --> 00:50:11.054
Five quick questions, have nothing to do
with anything, starting with what's the

00:50:11.304 --> 00:50:11.624
Dave: Yeah.

00:50:11.734 --> 00:50:13.014
Michael: first kids show
theme song that comes to mind?

00:50:15.424 --> 00:50:16.544
Dave: Kid show theme song?

00:50:19.544 --> 00:50:21.474
Inspector Gadget was in
my head the other day.

00:50:22.340 --> 00:50:26.090
Michael: Love that one, and that will now
be stuck in my head for the rest of today.

00:50:26.474 --> 00:50:26.634
Dave: Yeah.

00:50:27.010 --> 00:50:27.430
Michael: But that's a good one.

00:50:27.864 --> 00:50:29.864
Dave: Doo, doo, doo,
doo, doo, doo, doo, doo.

00:50:29.970 --> 00:50:30.644
Michael: Yep, yeah, absolutely.

00:50:30.694 --> 00:50:30.864
Dave: Yeah.

00:50:31.540 --> 00:50:32.140
Michael: Love that one.

00:50:32.740 --> 00:50:33.740
What was your very first job?

00:50:36.386 --> 00:50:37.616
Dave: First job.

00:50:38.316 --> 00:50:41.236
My first like real job was lifeguarding.

00:50:42.016 --> 00:50:45.836
I had, I had did a couple random
things when I was really young

00:50:45.836 --> 00:50:48.856
for my dad and stuff, but like
lifeguarding was my first real gig.

00:50:48.940 --> 00:50:50.590
Michael: How old were you
when you were a lifeguard?

00:50:52.620 --> 00:50:53.870
Dave: Probably 15,

00:50:53.944 --> 00:50:54.294
Michael: Nice.

00:50:54.320 --> 00:50:56.050
Dave: 15, 16, somewhere in there.

00:50:56.140 --> 00:50:56.540
Yeah.

00:50:56.648 --> 00:50:58.678
Michael: Would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:50:58.678 --> 00:51:00.548
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:51:01.548 --> 00:51:02.368
Dave: Oh my God.

00:51:02.718 --> 00:51:07.308
T-Rex-sized toddler or…
Yeah, T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:51:07.448 --> 00:51:07.818
Michael: Why is that?

00:51:10.148 --> 00:51:12.758
Dave: A toddler-sized
T-Rex sounds terrifying.

00:51:14.336 --> 00:51:14.566
Michael: That's fair.

00:51:14.888 --> 00:51:20.958
Dave: The, the lack of spatial
awareness and like you would, it

00:51:20.958 --> 00:51:22.988
just sounds like a complete disaster.

00:51:23.098 --> 00:51:23.498
Yeah.

00:51:24.012 --> 00:51:24.552
Michael: Fair enough.

00:51:25.082 --> 00:51:27.762
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:51:29.842 --> 00:51:32.032
Dave: Oh, boy.

00:51:33.052 --> 00:51:35.232
Let's go "Free Fallin'" by Tom Petty.

00:51:35.272 --> 00:51:35.542
Michael: Awesome.

00:51:36.162 --> 00:51:37.182
Love me some Tom Petty.

00:51:37.182 --> 00:51:38.022
Dave: That's, that's an easy one.

00:51:38.022 --> 00:51:40.302
Yeah.

00:51:40.372 --> 00:51:41.022
Michael: And finally, what's the
weirdest thing you've ever carried around

00:51:41.022 --> 00:51:42.512
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:51:44.956 --> 00:51:47.806
Dave: Oh, weirdest thing
I've carried around.

00:51:50.296 --> 00:51:51.906
Let me think about that one for a second.

00:51:52.906 --> 00:51:54.626
Oof, that's a question.

00:51:57.976 --> 00:51:59.676
Maybe toothpicks.

00:51:59.716 --> 00:52:02.046
I went through a toothpick phase
where I would always have a box

00:52:02.046 --> 00:52:03.566
of toothpicks in, in my pocket.

00:52:03.566 --> 00:52:05.976
Maybe that's not weird, but
people told me it was weird at the

00:52:05.986 --> 00:52:07.666
time, so I'll go with that one.

00:52:07.686 --> 00:52:07.956
Michael: All right.

00:52:08.766 --> 00:52:09.186
Very cool.

00:52:09.606 --> 00:52:10.446
I appreciate that, Dave.

00:52:10.456 --> 00:52:13.036
Before we wrap up, I would love for
you to share what you're working on.

00:52:13.036 --> 00:52:15.016
Where can people go to learn
more about you and your work?

00:52:17.236 --> 00:52:20.196
Dave: Yeah, a few, I've got a,
a lot of things out there right

00:52:20.196 --> 00:52:23.386
now, but the primary place to
find me is davealbrechta.com.

00:52:25.746 --> 00:52:29.456
And that's kind of the
main hub of my work.

00:52:30.196 --> 00:52:32.176
You can find my coaching work there.

00:52:32.606 --> 00:52:36.146
You can get a, a free initial call
with me if you'd like to chat about

00:52:36.636 --> 00:52:40.656
conflict you're going through or,
or professional stuff, whatever.

00:52:41.236 --> 00:52:45.916
And my, my podcast is also on
that website, which is Lawyers

00:52:45.966 --> 00:52:50.696
as Healers, which you can find on
wherever you listen to your podcasts.

00:52:50.872 --> 00:52:51.132
Michael: Awesome.

00:52:51.162 --> 00:52:53.972
We'll make sure to put links
to all that in the show notes.

00:52:53.982 --> 00:52:55.652
Dave, I really enjoyed this conversation.

00:52:55.684 --> 00:52:56.124
Dave: Perfect.

00:52:56.532 --> 00:52:59.042
Michael: I appreciate your willingness
to share, not just the decisions you

00:52:59.042 --> 00:53:03.612
made, but the, the reasoning and the
questions that sort of led you there.

00:53:03.882 --> 00:53:07.552
I think a lot of dads wrestle with
many of these, many of the same

00:53:07.552 --> 00:53:08.932
questions that you wrestled with.

00:53:09.782 --> 00:53:14.862
N-, not, not necessarily in the legal
space, but I think it's a common

00:53:17.012 --> 00:53:22.932
kind of experience that we go
through where alignment of what we're

00:53:22.932 --> 00:53:25.692
doing and what we really want to
be doing and what we want to model

00:53:25.692 --> 00:53:27.722
for our kids isn't quite there.

00:53:28.512 --> 00:53:32.142
And so I, I think this conversation
is going to help a lot of dads, myself

00:53:32.142 --> 00:53:34.912
included, think a little bit differently
about the life that we're building.

00:53:34.912 --> 00:53:37.172
So thank you so much again for taking
the time to chat with me today.

00:53:37.172 --> 00:53:37.452
Dave: Yeah.

00:53:37.512 --> 00:53:38.292
Michael: I appreciate it.

00:53:38.652 --> 00:53:41.152
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this, and you

00:53:41.152 --> 00:53:43.622
find yourself in between navigating
a season that feels different,

00:53:43.952 --> 00:53:46.462
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:53:46.472 --> 00:53:49.722
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:53:49.722 --> 00:53:50.892
and what really matters right now.

00:53:51.372 --> 00:53:53.852
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:53:53.852 --> 00:53:55.232
dad who might need to hear it.

00:53:55.232 --> 00:53:56.692
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:53:57.012 --> 00:53:58.882
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.