Stephen Clifford on Raising Resilient Kids as a Working Dad

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Stephen: When I talk to some of
my friends and dads especially,

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like in town and stuff like that,
like I'll, I'll bring it up.

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I'll just be like, "You know what?

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Like at the end of the day, like I'm
just so grateful for that." And like you

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see once I bring it up, the other dads
are like, like they immediately go like,

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"Yeah, I completely agree with you."

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And it's not oftentimes where you can
have that, even that 15 seconds of

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like real conversation where they're
like, "Yeah, you know what? Like

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it's, it's not that bad." You know?

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Michael: Exactly.

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Stephen: It's, it's, it's,
it's actually pretty cool.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today I'm joined by author, youth coach,

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speaker, and dad, Stephen Clifford.

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Stephen is the creator of The Forgotten
Wisdom books children's series,

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including "Nothing Changes If Nothing
Changes," "Bring Your Own Grit,"

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"No One Stands Taller Than You," and
"Stop Existing and Start Living."

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His work focuses on helping kids
build resilience, accountability,

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confidence, and courage in a world
that often pushes comfort, distraction,

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and constant comparison instead.

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Inspired by lessons passed down from
his father, a former Marine Corps first

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lieutenant, and his mother, a longtime
fifth-grade teacher, Stephen is trying

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to help families reconnect with timeless
values that still matter deeply today.

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Alongside his career in digital
advertising, Stephen spends his time

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coaching youth sports, training in
martial arts with his kids, speaking at

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schools across the country, and helping
his daughter build her own interview

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show called "Taylor's Job Safari," where
she interviews adults about what they do

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for work and what makes them successful.

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Stephen, welcome to the show.

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I'm really glad you're here.

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Stephen: Thanks, Michael.

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Really glad to be here.

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Michael: Appreciate that.

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So one thing that immediately stood out
to me about your story is that so much

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of what you're building seems rooted in
the idea that kids are always watching

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us, whether we realize it or not.

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And I think a lot of dads feel
that tension between trying to

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build meaningful work, trying
to actually be present at home.

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And so I kind of want to start there.

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There's, a lot of your work seems
to come from this realization

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that some really important lessons
started disappearing from childhood.

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What were you noticing in kids, including
your own perhaps, that made you feel

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like something bigger was changing?

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Stephen: I think that's a good question.

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And, and I think that goes
back to even before I had

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children, the world was changing.

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And the world was changing in a way where
I saw it getting a little softer and which

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is, which is gonna happen with technology.

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We're all gonna get more
comfortable with things.

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I mean, you can pick up your phone
and, and get food, a-, any cuisine

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you want in 30 minutes or less, right?

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Michael: Right.

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Stephen: And there's so many different
things you could do from your phone.

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And just, just, just with that alone,
the world was changing, and I knew that

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once my kids were gonna, g-, going to
come, it was gonna get even worse, okay,

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'cause as we progress and as we evolve,
new technologies arise, and it's just

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going to create more comfort than needed,
I think, as, as children and as humans.

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And so I knew that I wanted to
raise my kids with certain values.

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Now, when they're six and nine months and
12 months old, there's nothing really much

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you can do besides change a diaper, right?

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And working on their sleeping habits.

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But as they started getting older and
we started, and we were reading to

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them, I realized that there were books,
every book that I was either gifted or

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bought or looked at or passed down to
me didn't really speak to what I was

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preaching to them at home or what I was,
my wife and I wanted to raise them with.

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And I, and I realized, I'm like, you
know, I kept looking, and the only

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books I could find truly that fit some
of the bill there was The Berenstain

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Bears books, the old school '80s books.

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Michael: Sure.

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Yep.

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Stephen: Longtime popular series
with Mama Bear and Papa Bear.

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And, you know, there's only so many
times you can read those books.

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Michael: Right.

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Stephen: And so, you know, I wanted
to get a more modern twist to it,

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and I didn't want to be someone who
just preached to my kids about grit

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and accountability, because that can
get boring and old and stale very

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quickly especially to young minds.

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And so I realized that I needed
to do something about it, and I

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wanted to, and I figured, you know,
with the extra time I had with

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COVID, why can't I do this myself?

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Why can't I just write, begin
to write stories about them,

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about things that they are doing?

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Not only are they doing,
but what they did.

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So, I started writing the books when
my kids were four and one years old.

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The idea came to me, and I aged the kids
in the books to be, like, nine and six or

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10 and seven, because I'm like, what, what
problem can a one-year-old have, right?

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And so as my daughter is four and five and
as I'm writing these stories and as she's

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going through these pro-, problems, I had
a nine-year-old and 10-year-old problem,

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and I had a six-year-old problem, right?

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So I had them with all different types
of issues that they were going through,

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whether it be bullying, whether it
be learning how to ride a bike or

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understanding what accountability
looks like with either

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school, teachers, or sports.

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I thought these are th-, these are
things that are going to happen to them.

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It's inevitable.

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You know, they're inescapable.

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How do I navigate that, that message to
them is gonna be, is gonna be important.

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Michael: I love that.

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It's so interesting to think about
now, like I grew up on "Berenstain

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Bears," like I was a child of the '80s.

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Like I remember those books, right?

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And I read some of those
to my kids as well.

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Like, I mean, I don't recall, I mean,
it's been a few years since I've read a

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children's book, so it's, I don't recall
like the exact messaging in those books,

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but I do remember those characters, right?

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And there was some stability
in seeing them show up in these

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situations again and again.

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But those books were
written decades ago, right?

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And our society has changed in that time.

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Like you said, like we live in more
modern times than we did back when

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those types of books were written,
and there's been all sorts of other

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books have been written over time.

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And while the lessons or the messages
may be the same for our children, the

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way that they comprehend them and the way
that they experience them are different

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today than they were when we were kids
or when our parents were kids, right?

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And so, it's so interesting
to me that There is this gap.

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I don't think any of us have, many of
us have thought about, like, yes, these

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books are written for kids who are, you
know, three years old, six years old,

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nine years old, whatever age they may be,
but they were written for those kids in a

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different era, in a different time, right?

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And we talk a lot as dads about like
meeting the kids where they are,

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Stephen: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: right?

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And it's hard to meet them where they are
when they are experiencing a different era

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than what we're reading to them, right?

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And so if we can bring the stories
to them and make it more relatable,

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I can see the benefit of it.

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Now, it doesn't mean that they
can't get any benefit from

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these older books either, right?

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Like, there's still, the messaging is
there, and it's interesting to be able

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to take kids back in time and be like,
"This is what it was like when I was your

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age," or, "This is what it was like when
your grandparents were this age," and

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be able to share those types of stories.

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But it's, it's really fascinating to
me that you've found this gap that you

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wanted to fill, and you're able to build
these stories, and they're based off

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of such realistic challenges, right?

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Real challenges.

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Like you talk about bullying and you talk
about like grit and determination, right?

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Of like things that kids actually, you
know, having them live, build confidence

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through experiences that they live, right?

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And there, there is never enough of
that messaging out there, I don't think.

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Right?

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Like, and it helps to reinforce the
messaging that we try to provide

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to our, our children, right?

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Of, you know, we, this
is what we hope for you.

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This is what we, you know, hope that
you're able to accomplish and become.

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And through these books, we're reinforcing
tho-, the messages, the positive

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messaging that we want, want to give them.

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So, I just find it super interesting.

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And I'm wondering like how did your
childhood, when you were growing up

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you know, it was before smartphones,
before social media, right?

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Unless you somehow have aged
very quickly and were only

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born, you know, 15 years ago.

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But what are some of the lessons or
experiences from your own upbringing that

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you are trying to reinforce today or
that are, you're kind of grateful for

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that you have today to use as perspective
when raising your kids and writing your

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books a-, and speaking to other youth?

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Stephen: Yeah, I think one of the,
one of the ways, and, and I know you

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mentioned it's good for the, for, for
children to see themselves in their

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own stories and understand that.

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And that's one of the things I really
want to do is, is be authentic.

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The authenticity was important to me
to have not just made-up fairytale

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stories, but actually real stories
that actually happened to them.

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And so that way they can
build off that and they could

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see themselves and use that.

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And I knew that by doing that, their
stories, while unique to them, it

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could be very comparable to other
lives, kids the same age that were

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going through the same struggles
across the country, across the world.

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And I knew that, you know, them, them
going through these struggles, while that

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particular instance may have happened
to them, that also could be replicated

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across m-, every single kid that age.

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It's funny you mentioned that with my
childhood and way, the way I was raised.

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Both my parents were, my mother
was a teacher, like I said.

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But she re-, almost
semi-retired to raise us.

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She was a stay-at-home mom when my
father worked, and then she went back

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into teaching when we were more closer
to middle school into elementary to

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help have a second stream of income and
to help pay for college and whatnot.

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But, it was, it was a home that
was always built on reputation.

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It was a home built on accountability
and making sure that what

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you say, you're going to do.

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And that was, I remember, that
was one of the main lessons that I

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remember coming home with, is that
if I complained about something, my

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father would look at me and be like,
"Well, what are you gonna do about it?

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I mean, you could just complain, but
is that what type of person you wanna

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be?" And sometimes I'd be like, "Yeah,
that's the type of person I wanna

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be." Like, like I don't wanna fix it.

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I'm 11 years old and
this stinks, you know?

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Because you, the, the light
bulb doesn't come on right

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away, right, for, for, for kids.

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And so, you know, it's gotta be beaten
into you a little bit to the point

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where like, or it's shown to you, here
are the ways where y-, here's the path.

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Here's the path you can choose,
and you can choose either path.

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And there are times where
I took the wrong path.

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I mean, there are times where I had
to learn the hard way and, and ha-,

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and have to learn about accountability
and consequences for actions.

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And, you know, it stung
many, many different times.

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And so I think, you know, wanting to
show my, my children the same path,

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and not so much let them not fail.

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Like, that, that's one of the things
that I really wanted them to do.

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I'm beginning to write my, my sixth
book, and it's called "Failure Is a

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Gift," and it's completely all about
embracing the failure part of life and

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learning from what the failures give you.

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Because oftentimes when you win,
quote unquote, "win" at something,

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the success gets c-, the success
gets covered up in some of the

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things you did wrong.

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Like, you, you may do something
you did wrong but happened to get

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the win, and then you don't realize
you need to fix something, right?

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When you lose, that's when you really
totally reflect on what you can do.

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So, oftentimes, winning is
a, is a, is a mask sometimes.

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And so, we look for our kids to fail.

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My seven-year-old is playing
baseball and, you know, it is, you

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know, you fail a lot in baseball.

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Michael: For sure.

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Stephen: So, so often.

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And he, and he has a, and he's having
a tough time with it, sometimes.

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And so, you know, one of the things that
we, one of the things, a mantra we've

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created with him is, is that when he gets
upset he doesn't realize that when he gets

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upset it compounds the problem, right?

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It, it makes it even worse.

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He doesn't make good decisions.

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He makes it worse sometimes.

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He'll, he'll say something or he'll do
something or, or, and then he'll get

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more frustrated and then all of a sudden
he'll be in a bigger pickle, right?

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And so one of the things we started
to say was, I'm like, when he gets

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mad, I'm like, "Are you a volcano?"

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Michael: And

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Stephen: then his response is, "No."
And I said "then what are you then?"

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And he says, "I'm in control."
And then he takes a deep breath.

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And the-, and, like, we have
that automatic response.

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Like, we coached him on, say, like, "I'm
gonna say this, I'm, I'm gonna say, 'Are

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you a volcano?' And you're gonna say no."

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And then that initial part, he has to
say no, and he has to mean it, because

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I said, I'm like, "You, you can't say no
and then roll your eyes and still be mad,

00:13:18.071 --> 00:13:21.051
right? It doesn't work that way." And,
like, so we've had to gone through that

00:13:21.101 --> 00:13:22.561
because he's six and seven years old.

00:13:23.051 --> 00:13:26.211
So he'll get mad and be like,
"No, I'm not a volcano."

00:13:26.221 --> 00:13:30.441
I'm like, "Who's in control?" "I am."
And just take a deep breath, and he'll,

00:13:30.441 --> 00:13:35.021
and then he'll realize that like,
all right, this is, this is the path

00:13:35.021 --> 00:13:36.311
you need to, to get over something.

00:13:36.331 --> 00:13:37.481
It's okay to be upset.

00:13:37.961 --> 00:13:42.131
He got, he, he, we played baseball
in a game, and he got up, there was

00:13:42.181 --> 00:13:46.461
bases loaded, two outs, and, you
know, we, where he's in a league where

00:13:46.501 --> 00:13:49.221
they have kid pitches a few innings.

00:13:49.521 --> 00:13:54.891
And, you know, he had one pitch that was
over his head, the umpire called it a

00:13:54.891 --> 00:13:59.871
strike, and he's like, "What was that?"
The second pitch he fouled off, and the

00:13:59.871 --> 00:14:04.271
third pitch, again, was like at the brim
of his hat or higher, and they called

00:14:04.271 --> 00:14:07.191
it strike three, and he was so pissed.

00:14:07.371 --> 00:14:10.631
And he's like, "That wasn't a
strike." He turned around and

00:14:10.641 --> 00:14:11.451
it was the end of the inning.

00:14:11.451 --> 00:14:16.453
He turned around, and he hit his bat
against the pole And was just like,

00:14:16.483 --> 00:14:20.643
and I was like, "Whoa." And, and then
his coach w-, told me to back off

00:14:20.643 --> 00:14:22.943
so he could deal with him a little
bit, and I, I took a step back.

00:14:23.563 --> 00:14:25.783
And then I looked at him as
he went out into the field.

00:14:25.783 --> 00:14:29.963
I was like, "Are you a volcano?"
And he's like, "No." And I'm like,

00:14:30.623 --> 00:14:34.903
who's in control?" "I am." And we
kind of looked at him, and I was

00:14:34.903 --> 00:14:37.543
like, "Don't let this affect you
the rest of the game." You know?

00:14:37.543 --> 00:14:41.293
And then after the, after the, after the
game's over, we talked to him about it.

00:14:41.293 --> 00:14:43.003
I'm like, "Listen, there's
gonna be bad calls.

00:14:43.073 --> 00:14:45.673
There's gonna be calls that,
that, that you don't agree with.

00:14:45.673 --> 00:14:49.713
There's gonna be calls that,
that, that upset you, but you s-,

00:14:49.713 --> 00:14:51.133
you can't let that affect you.

00:14:51.133 --> 00:14:54.523
You can't let that affect t-, to
get upset more." And I think I had

00:14:54.523 --> 00:15:00.163
to check myself because I reacted,
and I was like, "Oh!" You know?

00:15:00.173 --> 00:15:02.443
Like, that wasn't, like, and we
called him strike three, I remember.

00:15:02.443 --> 00:15:05.883
And I think he looked at me
reacting and got even more upset.

00:15:05.883 --> 00:15:07.223
Like, "Oh, I'm justified now.

00:15:07.223 --> 00:15:08.253
My dad's upset,

00:15:08.823 --> 00:15:09.133
Michael: Right.

00:15:09.653 --> 00:15:14.903
Stephen: And so now I can react." And
I think that's a learning lesson for me

00:15:14.903 --> 00:15:18.823
is like I need to be, I, I need, what
I am doing is gonna reflect on what he,

00:15:18.853 --> 00:15:20.683
what, what his response is oftentimes.

00:15:21.093 --> 00:15:22.703
So that was a learning lesson for me.

00:15:23.253 --> 00:15:26.963
But 100%, th-, these are things
that I, I want him to learn at.

00:15:26.973 --> 00:15:28.003
We want him to fail.

00:15:28.003 --> 00:15:28.833
We want him to do this.

00:15:28.833 --> 00:15:32.343
And, and we did this many times in the
book where we had, you know, w-, when

00:15:32.343 --> 00:15:35.043
we learned how to ride a bike, like
we didn't give him training wheels.

00:15:35.043 --> 00:15:38.953
We, we, we had the little balance bike
for three months, and then we gave

00:15:38.953 --> 00:15:41.803
them their bike, a two-wheeler, and
I would just take their back of their

00:15:41.803 --> 00:15:44.813
bike and just hold their seat, hold
their seat, and then just push them.

00:15:45.243 --> 00:15:46.753
And you get a lot of squealing.

00:15:46.753 --> 00:15:51.343
You get a lot of, "Don't let go, don't
let go." And, you know, they wouldn't

00:15:51.343 --> 00:15:54.443
go too fast or they would fall and,
you know, cut themselves oftentimes.

00:15:54.443 --> 00:15:56.783
But, I mean, I think one time
he, he kind of scraped his knee.

00:15:56.783 --> 00:16:01.113
But, I want, my wife and I wanted him
to, and both of them, my daughter too,

00:16:01.113 --> 00:16:06.333
we wanted them to feel what it's like to
fail and to have that healthy fear of,

00:16:06.673 --> 00:16:08.223
"This is what's going to happen if I fall.

00:16:08.233 --> 00:16:10.173
I'm going to, my knee's
gonna hit the gravel.

00:16:10.173 --> 00:16:11.723
My bike chain's gonna hit my shin.

00:16:12.363 --> 00:16:15.523
All this stuff's gonna happen, but
this is why I need to correct myself."

00:16:15.523 --> 00:16:19.413
And so they're almost optimizing
themselves in a way where it's

00:16:19.413 --> 00:16:20.983
not a completely safe environment.

00:16:21.473 --> 00:16:23.783
There has to be some level of
danger, I think, for them to grow.

00:16:25.165 --> 00:16:25.315
Michael: Right, right.

00:16:25.315 --> 00:16:27.385
I, I love all of what you just said.

00:16:27.385 --> 00:16:29.525
I mean, you, there's
so much to unpack here.

00:16:29.545 --> 00:16:35.165
Like, you met your son where he's at,
right, with this volcano messaging, right?

00:16:35.165 --> 00:16:42.785
Like, you found a, on the su-, what on
the surface is a simple sort of give and

00:16:42.785 --> 00:16:49.895
take, two sentence or two lines each,
conversation that you can consistently

00:16:49.895 --> 00:16:57.085
have that gives him a starting point to
recalibrate, right, of like, "Are you

00:16:57.085 --> 00:17:01.925
the volcano?" "No." You know, and j-,
and one more sentence, one more, one

00:17:01.925 --> 00:17:07.945
more call and response, and it's able to
help him learn to start to self-regulate.

00:17:08.645 --> 00:17:12.175
But, to me, like the, the one thing
that jumped out more than anything

00:17:12.175 --> 00:17:19.195
was something you said early on here,
which was that you, it takes time.

00:17:19.445 --> 00:17:26.775
It takes, they don't necessarily learn
it the first time you try to teach your

00:17:26.775 --> 00:17:34.125
kids whatever it may be or gui-, guide
them to learn some sort of lesson, right?

00:17:34.125 --> 00:17:36.485
It is something that has to
be reinforced time and again.

00:17:36.485 --> 00:17:39.935
There needs to be consistency
there of this is the proper way to

00:17:39.935 --> 00:17:41.525
respond in that type of situation.

00:17:45.371 --> 00:17:45.471
Stephen: And it's, and it's
tough, Michael, because you,

00:17:45.471 --> 00:17:47.867
because you may think that you're
not doing the right thing and

00:17:47.917 --> 00:17:48.197
Michael: Right.

00:17:48.711 --> 00:17:50.631
Stephen: 'cause they're not
responding right away to it.

00:17:50.951 --> 00:17:54.611
And then you're like, "Why, am I beating
a dead horse? Am I, am I continuing down

00:17:54.611 --> 00:17:57.201
a path that is never going to work?"

00:17:57.849 --> 00:17:58.099
Michael: Right.

00:17:58.111 --> 00:18:00.981
Stephen: "Is this not the right
approach?" And so I wrestle with

00:18:00.991 --> 00:18:06.431
those thoughts late at night often
because I think I'm, I'm, I'm, I'm

00:18:06.431 --> 00:18:08.391
not the perfect father by any stretch.

00:18:08.711 --> 00:18:12.011
And so I'm trying to figure out ways
that work and resonate with each

00:18:12.011 --> 00:18:13.431
child because each child is different.

00:18:13.851 --> 00:18:17.561
And so what may work with my daughter
won't necessarily work with my son.

00:18:17.951 --> 00:18:22.491
So my, my daughter, sh-, if you
are strict with her, if you are,

00:18:26.745 --> 00:18:31.275
I wouldn't say authoritative, but she
does well when there's guidelines and

00:18:31.275 --> 00:18:34.915
there's, there are rules, and she will
follow those rules, and she will, and she

00:18:34.915 --> 00:18:39.215
will get, she will, you will see the best
out of her because she will be trying her

00:18:39.235 --> 00:18:40.905
hardest within the parameters of the game.

00:18:42.985 --> 00:18:44.925
And I try, so, like, we
learned that in martial arts.

00:18:44.925 --> 00:18:47.905
Like, if we have a coach who's
just, like, lackadaisical and lets

00:18:47.905 --> 00:18:52.935
the kids do whatever, she will
push the envelope and she will, you

00:18:52.935 --> 00:18:54.515
know, do what, do what she wants.

00:18:54.515 --> 00:18:56.735
But if there's a sensei who's
like, "This is what we do.

00:18:56.815 --> 00:18:57.925
Boom, this is where you need to be.

00:18:57.925 --> 00:18:58.685
This is how you sit.

00:18:59.155 --> 00:19:02.395
This is where I need you," she
will then fo-, she will do it.

00:19:02.575 --> 00:19:06.395
She will do it, and then you'll see
the best athlete version of her.

00:19:06.883 --> 00:19:07.073
Michael: Right.

00:19:07.383 --> 00:19:08.243
She thrives on structure.

00:19:08.645 --> 00:19:11.385
Stephen: I tried that with my
son, and he was like, you know,

00:19:11.425 --> 00:19:12.875
"Get out of my face." Like,

00:19:13.159 --> 00:19:13.459
Michael: Yeah.

00:19:13.655 --> 00:19:14.405
Stephen: like, no.

00:19:14.855 --> 00:19:14.885
Like,

00:19:15.009 --> 00:19:15.249
Michael: Yeah.

00:19:15.335 --> 00:19:17.105
Stephen: he needs more
positive affirmation.

00:19:17.115 --> 00:19:20.885
He needs more words of encouragement
rather than, "Hey, you need to

00:19:20.895 --> 00:19:23.105
step it up and fall in line."

00:19:23.115 --> 00:19:28.065
He'd be like, "No, that doesn't
work with me, and I need more

00:19:28.065 --> 00:19:31.295
like, 'Hey, you know what? You're
doing better. Good job.'" You know?

00:19:31.295 --> 00:19:34.675
Like, and yeah, there's a balance too,
because it's not all soft talk with him.

00:19:34.675 --> 00:19:37.645
Like, there are times where I'll
get on him, but I also need to know,

00:19:37.655 --> 00:19:38.735
like, I need to balance at that.

00:19:38.765 --> 00:19:39.685
And same with my daughter, too.

00:19:39.685 --> 00:19:42.045
It's not all just like, "This is what
you have to do, and, and you fall in

00:19:42.045 --> 00:19:44.745
line and you're f-, or like follows
order all the time." Like there is,

00:19:45.515 --> 00:19:48.735
are, it's a balance between the two,
but it's not 50/50, and that's what

00:19:48.735 --> 00:19:49.815
you learn with the two children.

00:19:49.825 --> 00:19:52.725
It's like there needs
to be a 65/35, an 80/20.

00:19:52.735 --> 00:19:55.705
Like, you need to find that balance
of, of how you deal with them.

00:19:57.065 --> 00:19:59.215
And I think that that's, that's
the challenge, but it's also

00:19:59.215 --> 00:20:00.205
the fun of parenting, too.

00:20:00.205 --> 00:20:03.305
It's just like when you think about
it, there's such, there's such value

00:20:03.315 --> 00:20:06.815
and such weight that you're raising a
child and you're making, you have such

00:20:07.045 --> 00:20:10.925
decisions that you're making for them and
you're and all with the best intentions.

00:20:13.005 --> 00:20:19.465
But I, I know that doing too much
for them and allowing them to fail is

00:20:19.465 --> 00:20:20.775
going to help them in the long run.

00:20:20.885 --> 00:20:25.705
Regardless if it's the right method of
how I deal with it, allowing them to fail

00:20:25.715 --> 00:20:30.905
in a certain envi-, en-, environments
to then learn from that, as long as

00:20:30.905 --> 00:20:34.015
they have that mentality of like,
"I'm not a loser, I'm not a failure.

00:20:34.495 --> 00:20:37.455
This is just something that happens in
life and how we respond." Another thing

00:20:37.455 --> 00:20:42.445
we say to them and, and we say, you
know, I say, "Everybody falls." And,

00:20:42.445 --> 00:20:47.645
and his response is supposed to be "But
the tough ones get back up." Right?

00:20:47.875 --> 00:20:49.885
And so it's like in life, everyone falls.

00:20:50.005 --> 00:20:50.705
Everyone falls.

00:20:50.725 --> 00:20:52.205
But who gets back up, right?

00:20:52.205 --> 00:20:55.765
You look around the world and you
see people, some people didn't, never

00:20:55.865 --> 00:20:57.255
got back up from when they fell.

00:20:57.935 --> 00:21:00.595
Some people are still walking
around and never gotten back up.

00:21:01.115 --> 00:21:04.995
And so we always, we always tell my
children, "But what, what, what do

00:21:04.995 --> 00:21:08.195
Cliffords do when they fall?" And like
their response is, "They get back up,"

00:21:08.225 --> 00:21:09.675
like these little, like, sweet voices.

00:21:10.545 --> 00:21:12.345
Because that's what we try
to em-, emphasize in them.

00:21:12.345 --> 00:21:17.229
And I know that when I'm not there,
if that happens, that third voice in

00:21:17.229 --> 00:21:20.339
their head, you know, will kick in.

00:21:20.769 --> 00:21:23.589
And I think that's the goal is to be like,
"You know, what, what do we do when we

00:21:23.589 --> 00:21:26.269
fall? You know, tough ones get back up,"
and they can whisper that to themselves.

00:21:27.699 --> 00:21:29.919
And so that, that, that, that's
the different things that,

00:21:29.929 --> 00:21:31.199
that I walk through in my mind.

00:21:32.325 --> 00:21:32.535
Michael: Yeah, I love that.

00:21:32.615 --> 00:21:36.685
I, I like how you recognize
that everybody's different.

00:21:36.695 --> 00:21:38.345
Each kid is their own person, right?

00:21:38.345 --> 00:21:40.495
And they have their own personality
and their own motivations.

00:21:40.815 --> 00:21:45.395
And like you said, like, your son
might need a, doesn't thrive as much

00:21:45.395 --> 00:21:46.605
on structure as your daughter does.

00:21:46.605 --> 00:21:48.325
Your daughter prefers a
little bit more structure.

00:21:48.325 --> 00:21:51.465
Your son might need a little bit
more positive reinforcement, right?

00:21:51.755 --> 00:21:55.685
And I think what I found with
my own kids is my kids couldn't

00:21:55.695 --> 00:21:56.955
be any more different, right?

00:21:56.965 --> 00:21:58.895
Like, they are into different things.

00:21:58.895 --> 00:22:02.675
Th-, yes, they have some
general stuff in common.

00:22:02.675 --> 00:22:04.765
They both like to hang out with
friends and things like that.

00:22:04.765 --> 00:22:07.365
But, like, my daughter is in
dance, my son is in hockey.

00:22:07.375 --> 00:22:10.865
Like, those are two very different
sports, very different activities, right?

00:22:11.415 --> 00:22:13.575
And how they spend their
time is very different.

00:22:14.615 --> 00:22:18.835
But that also changes over time, like
what they need, what they kind of,

00:22:18.875 --> 00:22:25.665
like, yes, my son used to be better at
when I would, with structure, right?

00:22:26.115 --> 00:22:30.885
And as he's grown older and now
he's going off to college, structure

00:22:31.345 --> 00:22:35.415
doesn't serve as a great motivational
factor for him anymore, right?

00:22:35.575 --> 00:22:41.025
Yes, he, structure does help him to,
in some degrees, but I think in a lot

00:22:41.025 --> 00:22:45.815
of ways now he is looking for, there
are different things that motivate

00:22:45.815 --> 00:22:50.915
him than, like, saying, "Okay, this
is what you, these three things,

00:22:50.925 --> 00:22:53.015
you know, need to get done today.

00:22:53.015 --> 00:22:57.505
Like, these are the, the goals for
the day." That now is more of a,

00:22:58.465 --> 00:23:02.395
"Wait, I kind of…" He, he responds
with like, "I'm my own person now.

00:23:02.425 --> 00:23:05.915
I know how to figure out what I need to
get done and when I need to get it done.

00:23:06.075 --> 00:23:08.255
If you tell me to do these three
things, those are three things

00:23:08.255 --> 00:23:10.695
I'm going to avoid." Right?

00:23:10.969 --> 00:23:11.319
Stephen: Right.

00:23:11.415 --> 00:23:17.465
Michael: But if you encourage him to
accomplish certain goals and maybe

00:23:17.465 --> 00:23:20.295
leave it a little bit more broad, now
he's like, "Okay, now I can work this

00:23:20.305 --> 00:23:23.155
into how I want to structure my day,
that I feel like I'm in control."

00:23:23.367 --> 00:23:28.517
Stephen: Oh, that is, that is so spot
on, Michael, because I, I, as you're

00:23:28.517 --> 00:23:33.097
saying this, it's, it's even as,
as your son enters college and his,

00:23:33.317 --> 00:23:36.897
you know, his personality changes
and while it's still the core there,

00:23:36.897 --> 00:23:38.717
it still evolves constantly, right?

00:23:38.737 --> 00:23:43.417
Even to, even as, as adults, as men,
like we are, we evolve and, and change.

00:23:43.907 --> 00:23:49.887
My daughter, if I ask her to go and
practice field hockey or soccer or

00:23:49.887 --> 00:23:53.917
softball, though I think, I think
the word practice is like, "Ugh,

00:23:54.087 --> 00:23:55.287
I don't wanna do that," right?

00:23:55.737 --> 00:24:01.317
But if I make a poster board and I have
a calendar of days and I have four or

00:24:01.317 --> 00:24:05.687
five drills and I say, "You must do all
four or five of these drills every day,"

00:24:06.627 --> 00:24:11.847
and there's a box that has to be checked,
she'll be more motivated to go down

00:24:11.847 --> 00:24:13.567
and she'll, and she'll want to do that.

00:24:13.587 --> 00:24:16.937
She'll be like, "Alright, I wanna, I
wanna check that box. I wanna go down and

00:24:16.937 --> 00:24:19.857
show dad that I can check this box and
I'm gonna go downstairs and do all this

00:24:19.857 --> 00:24:23.717
stuff now on my own." And then, "Hey,
I checked the box. I did it." You know?

00:24:23.807 --> 00:24:27.257
But because there's a box to be
checked, which is, which is odd,

00:24:27.537 --> 00:24:28.617
but also works with chores, too.

00:24:28.627 --> 00:24:31.377
Like we have a chore chart and if
we just say, "All right, do this, do

00:24:31.377 --> 00:24:33.957
that," like it'll sometimes it'll get
done, sometimes it'll be forgotten.

00:24:34.463 --> 00:24:34.713
Michael: Right.

00:24:34.837 --> 00:24:37.807
Stephen: But if we have the chart with
the box check and give them the marker to

00:24:37.807 --> 00:24:40.847
check it off themselves, all of a sudden
now they feel more empowered to do it.

00:24:40.857 --> 00:24:41.207
It's,

00:24:43.247 --> 00:24:47.947
it sounds simple, but it's, s-, it, it's,
it's a way for them to, for at least for

00:24:47.947 --> 00:24:52.227
th-, for her and for my son, both of them
have that in common where, where they find

00:24:52.227 --> 00:24:54.707
that as, as a way to, to motivate them.

00:24:55.381 --> 00:24:56.001
Michael: Absolutely, yeah.

00:24:56.001 --> 00:25:00.031
The checking the box, even as adults, I
know plenty of people, myself included,

00:25:00.031 --> 00:25:04.831
where it's like there is a satisfaction
in being able to check off that box

00:25:04.841 --> 00:25:06.011
and be like, "I did that," right?

00:25:06.041 --> 00:25:06.241
And

00:25:06.447 --> 00:25:06.717
Stephen: Of course.

00:25:07.161 --> 00:25:08.891
Michael: it's, it's not even
anything to like brag about.

00:25:08.891 --> 00:25:13.841
It's just something that makes you
feel comfortable and more confident

00:25:13.841 --> 00:25:15.181
in yourself and a little bit happier.

00:25:15.221 --> 00:25:17.411
And like for some people
that, that works great.

00:25:17.551 --> 00:25:20.261
For others, like my son, like
I don't think he could care.

00:25:20.911 --> 00:25:23.371
There's nothing he would care less
about than checking the box, right?

00:25:23.611 --> 00:25:23.791
He's like,

00:25:23.849 --> 00:25:24.299
Stephen: Checking off the to-do list.

00:25:24.299 --> 00:25:27.351
Michael: Get it done and be able
to go on to focus on whatever he

00:25:27.351 --> 00:25:29.191
wants to spend his time on next.

00:25:29.951 --> 00:25:33.441
So it's really interesting, and the fact
that it keeps changing, right, or that

00:25:33.441 --> 00:25:37.061
they, I shouldn't say keep changing, but
as they evolve, right, as they get older.

00:25:37.061 --> 00:25:40.811
And I imagine that for our kids, that
will continue to change as they become

00:25:40.811 --> 00:25:45.511
adults, what motivates them and what
works best for them to accomplish their

00:25:45.511 --> 00:25:49.231
tasks at hand will continue to evolve
as they get older, as they mature,

00:25:49.231 --> 00:25:51.681
as they get more experiences, right?

00:25:51.681 --> 00:25:55.701
And so it's, goes back to that sort
of long-term thinking of, yeah,

00:25:55.701 --> 00:25:59.301
you could try to teach your child
a lesson in the moment, but you

00:25:59.301 --> 00:26:02.701
can't be frustrated if they don't
pick up on it right away, right?

00:26:02.701 --> 00:26:09.311
It's that continuous th-, that
continuity that allows them to see,

00:26:10.421 --> 00:26:12.561
you know, this is an expected behavior.

00:26:12.561 --> 00:26:16.601
This is, you know, this is a, a great way
to model it because kids are gonna follow

00:26:16.601 --> 00:26:18.661
what you do, not what you say, right?

00:26:18.661 --> 00:26:21.291
So like we could teach them the lesson
in the moment and talk to them and give

00:26:21.291 --> 00:26:26.801
it to them verbally, but it's going
to be how are we reacting to the same

00:26:26.801 --> 00:26:29.591
situation again and again and again.

00:26:29.591 --> 00:26:34.601
If they see, oh yeah, when dad gets
frustrated when, you know, we're

00:26:34.601 --> 00:26:38.861
shooting baskets outside, you know,
that is the right way to react when

00:26:38.881 --> 00:26:42.611
every time I miss a shot in a game or
I, you know, strike out at baseball.

00:26:42.781 --> 00:26:48.071
Like, don't forget, in baseball,
only succeeding a quarter of the

00:26:48.071 --> 00:26:51.781
time or a third of the time is
considered to be elite, right?

00:26:52.181 --> 00:26:57.191
Like, their, their failure rate is
typically greater than 75% every

00:26:57.191 --> 00:26:58.731
time you go up to the plate, right?

00:26:58.741 --> 00:27:07.735
So it's, it's an experience that you,
you model it not just in that moment

00:27:07.755 --> 00:27:10.245
at the baseball game, te-, you know,
tell 'em to calm down, but it's like,

00:27:10.345 --> 00:27:12.465
how do you react outside of that game?

00:27:12.695 --> 00:27:16.055
When you guys are home and you guys are
playing and you lose the game, do you,

00:27:16.795 --> 00:27:19.915
you know, throw a fit and throw the pieces
everywhere if you're playing a board game?

00:27:19.925 --> 00:27:23.575
Or, do you just, you know, congratulate
the other person, take a deep

00:27:23.585 --> 00:27:25.895
breath, kind of move on, accept
it and be like, "You know what?

00:27:25.895 --> 00:27:28.045
Next time I'm gonna change my strategy.

00:27:28.045 --> 00:27:28.695
I'm gonna do something else.

00:27:28.695 --> 00:27:32.135
I'm gonna get excited about the next
one and, and move on." But it's,

00:27:32.605 --> 00:27:37.925
to me, it's interesting that like,
yes, we can, we're the parents.

00:27:37.985 --> 00:27:41.345
As parents, we typically are the ones
that shape how our kids turn out because

00:27:41.345 --> 00:27:46.945
we spend the most time with them, but
it's not necessarily what we say to them.

00:27:47.455 --> 00:27:53.365
It's how we model the behaviors to
them and allow them the opportunities

00:27:53.365 --> 00:27:55.705
to experience that themselves, right?

00:27:55.785 --> 00:27:59.155
Because they don't know what they don't
know, and they won't know those things

00:27:59.165 --> 00:28:00.965
unless they experience them, right?

00:28:01.105 --> 00:28:04.475
Your son wasn't gonna get the
experience of feeling like he was

00:28:04.475 --> 00:28:08.275
cheated because the umpire called two
strikes that were above his head that

00:28:08.275 --> 00:28:09.605
were clearly out of the strike zone.

00:28:10.405 --> 00:28:12.715
If he's never experienced that, he
wouldn't know he was gonna get frustrated,

00:28:12.755 --> 00:28:13.725
that that's a frustrating feeling.

00:28:13.755 --> 00:28:14.955
Anybody would get frustrated by that.

00:28:14.955 --> 00:28:19.445
You see Major League Baseball players
who throw a temper tantrum when

00:28:19.995 --> 00:28:21.475
there's a, a missed call, right?

00:28:21.475 --> 00:28:24.925
And now they, you know, they will
throw their bats or they will stomp

00:28:24.925 --> 00:28:30.655
or they will kick dirt and it's,
when were they ever modeled the

00:28:30.655 --> 00:28:32.285
proper reaction to that, right?

00:28:32.335 --> 00:28:39.505
It's, it's on us as parents, dads, moms,
w-, however you identify yourself as

00:28:39.505 --> 00:28:47.765
the parent of like, yes, we, we have
the ability to at least demonstrate to

00:28:47.765 --> 00:28:54.295
our kids behavior that we would hope
that they would carry forward, right?

00:28:54.865 --> 00:28:58.335
It doesn't mean we're fully responsible
for how they turn out, right?

00:28:58.335 --> 00:29:01.075
There's a lot of other factors,
but we certainly can have an impact

00:29:01.075 --> 00:29:03.395
if we want and, right, and so…

00:29:03.763 --> 00:29:03.823
Stephen: Of course.

00:29:03.823 --> 00:29:05.423
I mean, we have an impact
even if we don't want.

00:29:05.433 --> 00:29:07.893
Think about it, Michael, even if we
don't want to have an impact on our

00:29:07.893 --> 00:29:09.943
kids, that is having an impact, right?

00:29:10.243 --> 00:29:11.173
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:11.223 --> 00:29:13.043
Stephen: Because then all of a sudden you
don't care about your kids, and your kids

00:29:13.043 --> 00:29:15.363
know that mom or dad doesn't care, right?

00:29:15.413 --> 00:29:19.383
I'll say that to my pa-, to,
to my, my kids all the time.

00:29:19.383 --> 00:29:21.863
It's like, "If, if I didn't care,
I would let you do what you want."

00:29:23.263 --> 00:29:25.073
That, that's the easiest path for me.

00:29:25.133 --> 00:29:28.973
The easiest path is to say yes all, to
a lot of things you wanna do, right?

00:29:29.343 --> 00:29:29.373
Michael: Right.

00:29:29.373 --> 00:29:29.463
Absolutely.

00:29:29.903 --> 00:29:32.303
Stephen: The hardest thing is to
say no, and the hardest thing is

00:29:32.303 --> 00:29:35.793
to, is to channel into, into co-,
course correct some of these things

00:29:35.803 --> 00:29:36.863
that they want to do at a young age.

00:29:36.863 --> 00:29:40.803
And so, I think my kids know
that when I explain it to me.

00:29:40.853 --> 00:29:42.743
They, they're like, "Ugh," but they
just sh-, they, they, they just get

00:29:42.743 --> 00:29:44.383
frustrated at the answer sometimes.

00:29:44.553 --> 00:29:44.943
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:29:44.963 --> 00:29:45.823
Stephen: "Ugh, fine.

00:29:45.833 --> 00:29:48.193
No ice cream again?" Like, "No,
you can't have ice cream." Like,

00:29:48.193 --> 00:29:52.513
"Come…" Like, "Stop." It's funny,
going back to the instance in

00:29:52.513 --> 00:29:53.763
baseball, you're absolutely right.

00:29:54.153 --> 00:29:56.963
Like, that was the first time my son had
a reaction like that, where he got, like,

00:29:56.993 --> 00:29:59.053
mad and, like, and, like, got upset.

00:29:59.383 --> 00:30:02.533
And his, and his coach came to me after
the game and was like, "You know what?

00:30:03.543 --> 00:30:04.883
I'm glad that he cares.

00:30:05.653 --> 00:30:09.853
I'm glad that he's
passionate about happened.

00:30:10.623 --> 00:30:14.813
We just need to channel it in a, in a
way where it's, it's fuel for him and,

00:30:14.813 --> 00:30:20.373
and he can take it out in the field and,
and use that to, to make a play and get

00:30:20.403 --> 00:30:23.503
angry at the call and be like, 'Oh, yeah,
I'm gonna show you now, and I'm gonna,

00:30:23.813 --> 00:30:27.443
I'm gonna focus more and get better'"
rather than, you know, do something

00:30:27.443 --> 00:30:28.893
that, that's gonna compound things.

00:30:28.963 --> 00:30:35.613
And I think channeling that energy
and that, that passion that all

00:30:35.613 --> 00:30:38.593
these kids have is, is a challenge.

00:30:38.593 --> 00:30:40.553
It's like you have to
funnel it in different ways.

00:30:41.403 --> 00:30:43.563
And you, and, and they're
very valuable in that sense.

00:30:44.021 --> 00:30:45.211
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:30:45.211 --> 00:30:49.371
I think, you know, you talk a lot
about this, like pressure, like you

00:30:49.371 --> 00:30:52.891
don't want to have to say no all the
time and, but, and it's hard for your

00:30:52.901 --> 00:31:00.531
kids to, in the moment, recognize what
you're trying to do for them, right?

00:31:00.531 --> 00:31:03.841
When you have to say no to ice
cream for the 30th time, right?

00:31:03.841 --> 00:31:07.841
It's like they just see it as,
"Oh, Dad won't let me have what

00:31:07.841 --> 00:31:09.321
I want," in the moment, right?

00:31:10.121 --> 00:31:14.161
In the long run, I think they start
to typically pick up on it like,

00:31:14.191 --> 00:31:15.791
"Oh yeah, he was looking out for me.

00:31:16.261 --> 00:31:18.531
He was doing the right thing." And I
think as they become adults, I think,

00:31:18.711 --> 00:31:21.301
for myself, it was like when I had
my own kids, like, "Oh yeah, now I

00:31:21.301 --> 00:31:22.591
see why my parents did that," right?

00:31:22.601 --> 00:31:24.051
Like they're not gonna
see it in the moment.

00:31:24.051 --> 00:31:25.771
Again, it's that long game.

00:31:25.991 --> 00:31:29.031
But I, I want to talk about pressure
with you a little bit more now, because

00:31:29.031 --> 00:31:34.331
there's more than just the pressure in
the moment of being present for your kids.

00:31:34.391 --> 00:31:37.821
There's, I think, you know, a lot of
dads that I talk to, they feel pressure

00:31:37.821 --> 00:31:43.351
to provide, to succeed professionally,
keep pushing forward there, but then

00:31:43.351 --> 00:31:45.831
they worry about, like we talked
about, like you don't necessarily

00:31:45.841 --> 00:31:46.851
have to be there for your kids.

00:31:46.851 --> 00:31:48.601
That's a choice you could make.

00:31:48.601 --> 00:31:50.871
It's not one that we
recommend typically, right?

00:31:50.871 --> 00:31:57.571
But there's this pressure to not only
provide, but be there for their kids so

00:31:57.571 --> 00:32:04.141
that they're, a-, and demonstrate for
them like how you live in a positive way.

00:32:04.761 --> 00:32:08.971
How do you, a-, and you have done
this through a lot of different things

00:32:08.971 --> 00:32:13.351
because you write books and you do
speaking engagements, and you are in

00:32:13.361 --> 00:32:18.931
the advertising industry, and you've
coached and, but you're also a parent.

00:32:18.951 --> 00:32:25.401
How do you think about balancing
this ambition and this need to, this

00:32:25.401 --> 00:32:28.021
feeling that you need to provide
and succeed professionally with

00:32:28.251 --> 00:32:29.901
being present with your family?

00:32:31.335 --> 00:32:33.405
Stephen: Michael, this is such a great
question because I was just thinking

00:32:33.445 --> 00:32:37.435
about it this morning, and I was actually
talking to a friend about this because I

00:32:37.435 --> 00:32:39.445
haven't, I haven't seen her in forever.

00:32:39.475 --> 00:32:42.895
It was a friend when I was in fifth
grade, and we, we, she texted me about

00:32:42.895 --> 00:32:46.065
something and about hanging out with,
with all of our high school friends.

00:32:47.115 --> 00:32:50.905
And I was talking to her about
balancing this exact same question.

00:32:50.905 --> 00:32:57.285
So I have, I, I think one of the, the
toughest things for me is balancing

00:32:57.295 --> 00:32:59.985
gratitude with the want for more.

00:33:01.005 --> 00:33:09.575
And so I am, I am built in a way that
I want, I've always wanted to, to

00:33:10.315 --> 00:33:14.465
prove people wrong or prove myself I
could do certain things and, and do

00:33:14.465 --> 00:33:22.245
that and, and, and want, and want to
succeed in different avenues in life.

00:33:24.055 --> 00:33:29.211
And sometimes I forget to sit back on the
beach and just look at what I've done,

00:33:29.821 --> 00:33:34.961
right, and, and look what, look at, look
at what I have and, and be grateful for

00:33:34.961 --> 00:33:38.701
what I have and how so many people would,
would love to be in my shoes, to be

00:33:38.701 --> 00:33:43.841
healthy, to have a happy marriage, to have
two beautiful children, to have a good

00:33:43.841 --> 00:33:48.401
job, to be able to do different things
with your children, to create this new

00:33:48.401 --> 00:33:53.431
show with, with my daughter, to practice
martial arts, be healthy enough to do

00:33:53.431 --> 00:33:57.541
that, to be able to go on vacations, you
know, to do, like, do different things

00:33:57.541 --> 00:33:59.471
that, that I've worked hard to earn.

00:34:01.341 --> 00:34:04.531
But then I'm still struggling
with, I need to do more.

00:34:04.791 --> 00:34:09.091
I need to, I need to give more time to my,
to my kids so they can get better at this.

00:34:09.431 --> 00:34:15.371
I need to spend more time on myself
so I can still get better at, at

00:34:15.371 --> 00:34:17.171
this area of my life and this area.

00:34:17.181 --> 00:34:18.261
I'm not doing enough here.

00:34:18.261 --> 00:34:19.581
I'm, I'm not doing enough here.

00:34:19.581 --> 00:34:20.581
I need to do more.

00:34:22.001 --> 00:34:24.601
We are homeschooling my daughter here
for the first time this year, and my

00:34:24.601 --> 00:34:28.211
daughter, and my wife has put a pause
on her professional organizing business,

00:34:28.611 --> 00:34:33.371
and so my line of work is the single
income for the, for the household, and so

00:34:33.371 --> 00:34:39.641
there comes a certain amount of pressure
with that, and am I, I need to, I need

00:34:39.641 --> 00:34:43.641
to make sure that I'm putting enough,
enough time into that first and foremost.

00:34:44.025 --> 00:34:44.185
Michael: Right.

00:34:44.381 --> 00:34:47.121
Stephen: And then what's left
over for everything else?

00:34:47.511 --> 00:34:50.061
And so, but I, but that's a priority, too.

00:34:50.091 --> 00:34:53.011
So there's so many different priorities
and there's level of changes, and I

00:34:53.011 --> 00:34:57.171
think that balance of wanting more,
but then also sitting back and be

00:34:57.171 --> 00:35:00.451
like, "Man, I should really be grateful
for what I have. I should really be

00:35:00.451 --> 00:35:03.871
grateful for all the things that I
have done already and for what I have

00:35:03.891 --> 00:35:09.701
currently in the moment." And so many
people have less and are still happy,

00:35:10.261 --> 00:35:10.481
Michael: Yep.

00:35:11.081 --> 00:35:11.461
Stephen: right?

00:35:11.531 --> 00:35:12.631
I mean, I don't have the answer.

00:35:12.641 --> 00:35:17.631
It is, it is a tough balance for me
to, I think, faith oftentimes gives

00:35:17.811 --> 00:35:19.371
me that, that level of balance.

00:35:19.891 --> 00:35:20.041
Michael: Sure.

00:35:20.361 --> 00:35:25.321
Stephen: Being able to pray that
kind of level sets me a lot.

00:35:25.371 --> 00:35:30.831
I think one of, one of the things that
one of my favorite sayings is that,

00:35:31.941 --> 00:35:36.441
both faith and fear ask you to believe
in something that you can't see.

00:35:37.281 --> 00:35:41.341
You just have to choose,
right, and so it's, it's that

00:35:41.483 --> 00:35:43.023
level of am I gonna be scared?

00:35:43.023 --> 00:35:46.293
Am I, or, or do I believe in
myself or do I, or I doubt myself?

00:35:47.903 --> 00:35:49.313
Do I doubt the things that are happening?

00:35:49.313 --> 00:35:52.493
Do I, or, or do I believe things
will work out because I'm going

00:35:52.493 --> 00:35:54.253
to make the right decisions, I'm
going to do the right things?

00:35:54.253 --> 00:36:00.033
And I think that helps me steer myself
and kind of take deep breaths and

00:36:00.043 --> 00:36:01.063
be like, "Alright, you know what?

00:36:01.273 --> 00:36:02.673
I have such good intentions.

00:36:02.673 --> 00:36:05.633
I'm, I'm, I always find time for
s, for everything I wanna do.

00:36:06.573 --> 00:36:08.543
I'm gonna make the right
decisions and, and everything's

00:36:08.543 --> 00:36:09.353
gonna work out in the end."

00:36:11.413 --> 00:36:14.733
rather than con-, continue to
doubt, continue to, to be upset,

00:36:14.763 --> 00:36:16.513
always be, "You know what?

00:36:16.513 --> 00:36:19.363
I missed the boat here, I missed the
boat there," or something, "I need

00:36:19.373 --> 00:36:24.613
to put more time into this." And, and
I think that is, is healthy to have.

00:36:24.623 --> 00:36:26.393
I think it's healthy to, to want that.

00:36:26.393 --> 00:36:30.313
I think a lot of times I'm not the
type of person to be content with

00:36:30.313 --> 00:36:33.553
my life at 45 years old and be like,
"This is, I'm not gonna do anything

00:36:33.553 --> 00:36:36.093
else in my life, and this is, this is
who I am, and I'm just gonna coast."

00:36:36.103 --> 00:36:37.613
Like, that wouldn't work with me.

00:36:38.101 --> 00:36:38.381
Michael: Right.

00:36:38.433 --> 00:36:41.323
Stephen: Like, I think at 55, at 65,
I'm still gonna wanna do crazy stuff.

00:36:41.813 --> 00:36:43.953
Like, I was talking to my wife about
running with the bulls in Pamplona.

00:36:45.153 --> 00:36:47.563
Like, like, I don't know, just why not?

00:36:48.823 --> 00:36:52.013
And, and maybe I won't, maybe I
won't do that till I'm like 52,

00:36:52.013 --> 00:36:53.673
but, like, maybe I'll do it one day.

00:36:56.193 --> 00:36:57.483
But it's not a priority, right?

00:36:57.483 --> 00:36:59.663
It's, but something, but something
that I think I'm always gonna want to

00:36:59.673 --> 00:37:03.243
try to do some, some different things,
and then also bring my kids along for

00:37:03.243 --> 00:37:04.873
some of these different experiences.

00:37:05.393 --> 00:37:07.403
They have stuff to look back and be
like, "You know what? What I have is

00:37:07.403 --> 00:37:13.063
pretty cool." Like, like what I have
with, with, with, with my kids, they

00:37:13.063 --> 00:37:16.213
may not be the best at everything,
but damn good I love them and they are

00:37:16.213 --> 00:37:17.653
good at what they w-, what they do.

00:37:18.763 --> 00:37:22.273
And I ha-, I have to, I have
to go back and forth with that.

00:37:22.273 --> 00:37:27.033
So it, it is a tough balance between being
that sole provider, being that provider

00:37:27.033 --> 00:37:33.473
for your family, being that protector,
wanting more for them constantly, but also

00:37:33.483 --> 00:37:36.353
sitting back and be like, "You know what?
Like, you should, you should be pretty

00:37:36.353 --> 00:37:37.793
happy with what you've accomplished."

00:37:37.843 --> 00:37:38.383
And,

00:37:39.001 --> 00:37:39.151
Michael: Absolutely.

00:37:39.443 --> 00:37:41.233
Stephen: and the future, the
future is bright depending

00:37:41.233 --> 00:37:42.423
upon what your attitude is.

00:37:42.433 --> 00:37:47.403
If your attitude is sh-, then
your future is not gonna look it's

00:37:47.933 --> 00:37:48.963
gonna, it's gonna turn out that way.

00:37:49.837 --> 00:37:50.597
Michael: Yeah, so well said.

00:37:51.003 --> 00:37:53.313
Stephen: There are dark times that,
that come for all of us, you know?

00:37:53.653 --> 00:37:55.033
Especially when you, we
talk about Gap to Gig.

00:37:55.083 --> 00:37:58.443
Like, there are times when I've
been unemployed before too, and

00:37:58.453 --> 00:38:02.153
it's, you know, that level of doubt
of course creeps into your head.

00:38:04.203 --> 00:38:11.373
but letting that stew and letting that
fester is, is, is not going to help you in

00:38:11.373 --> 00:38:15.413
the long run, and you have too many people
counting on you to, to let it happen.

00:38:15.983 --> 00:38:16.893
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:16.923 --> 00:38:17.523
Very well said.

00:38:17.523 --> 00:38:18.163
Appreciate that.

00:38:18.503 --> 00:38:21.733
What I find so important in what you
said, I mean, there was a bunch of

00:38:21.733 --> 00:38:26.093
stuff, but a couple things that kind of
jumped out at me is, one is you do need

00:38:26.093 --> 00:38:27.423
to take care of yourself, too, right?

00:38:27.433 --> 00:38:30.753
And you do need to do things for yourself
because I, I say this a lot, but there's

00:38:30.753 --> 00:38:32.053
kind of like, there's three pillars.

00:38:32.053 --> 00:38:36.783
There's, yes, you have to provide, you
have to or most likely have to provide,

00:38:36.813 --> 00:38:39.813
and you, so you might need to get a job
or unless you're a stay-at-home dad, in

00:38:39.813 --> 00:38:41.983
which case that's a, a job in itself also.

00:38:41.983 --> 00:38:47.053
But, so you need to do work,
and hopefully it's work that

00:38:47.053 --> 00:38:48.423
means something to you, right?

00:38:48.653 --> 00:38:52.793
You also want to be present there
for your kids and your families,

00:38:52.793 --> 00:38:56.583
your, your spouse, your people that
matter to you most, extended family

00:38:56.583 --> 00:38:57.823
and friends, whoever it may be.

00:38:58.063 --> 00:38:59.203
But you also have to
take care of yourself.

00:38:59.203 --> 00:39:00.283
That's the third pillar, right?

00:39:00.283 --> 00:39:00.443
Stephen: Mm-hmm.

00:39:00.443 --> 00:39:03.243
Michael: If you don't take care of
yourself, it's really hard to be there

00:39:03.253 --> 00:39:06.343
f-, be present for others and be active
with them, and it's really hard to

00:39:06.343 --> 00:39:10.753
succeed in work that means something to
you if you don't take care of yourself.

00:39:11.323 --> 00:39:16.833
But the part that I think that
really strikes me right now is when

00:39:16.833 --> 00:39:22.343
you talked about gratitude, because
I think for dads, it's something

00:39:22.343 --> 00:39:24.643
we gloss over quite a bit, right?

00:39:24.643 --> 00:39:26.463
We just don't talk about it.

00:39:26.463 --> 00:39:30.133
It's, it's not that, you know,
maybe there's that stereotype

00:39:30.133 --> 00:39:32.153
of being a manly man, right?

00:39:32.153 --> 00:39:36.183
And it's like we have to, you know,
be tough and strong and gratitude

00:39:36.183 --> 00:39:40.733
is, can be perceived as soft
and maybe the opposite of that.

00:39:41.743 --> 00:39:47.433
But at the end of the day, for me, it
took me a while to get to a point where

00:39:47.853 --> 00:39:50.163
I could be grateful for what I have.

00:39:50.403 --> 00:39:55.923
But for quite a while now, I feel
like I try to appreciate what is

00:39:55.923 --> 00:39:58.933
in front of me, what I have, what
I've been able to accomplish, the

00:39:58.933 --> 00:40:00.433
people around me that I care about.

00:40:01.083 --> 00:40:07.993
Like, being grateful for those types
of things is more valuable than any

00:40:07.993 --> 00:40:13.253
confidence I might have because it
is a way for me to connect, right?

00:40:13.323 --> 00:40:17.563
When I show my appreciation for
those that I care about, it helps

00:40:17.563 --> 00:40:18.903
me connect better with them.

00:40:19.825 --> 00:40:19.865
Stephen: Mm-hmm.

00:40:20.173 --> 00:40:25.603
Michael: But it also satisfies something
for me internally of, yeah, you know what?

00:40:25.643 --> 00:40:31.203
It, it calms me to be like, "Yes, things,
as rough as they may be in any given

00:40:31.203 --> 00:40:33.953
moment, I still have a lot going for me.

00:40:34.483 --> 00:40:35.753
I still have two healthy kids.

00:40:36.053 --> 00:40:37.963
I still have an amazing spouse.

00:40:38.173 --> 00:40:42.013
I still have great friends." I might not
talk to them as frequently as I'd like to.

00:40:42.461 --> 00:40:42.471
Stephen: Mm-hmm.

00:40:43.153 --> 00:40:45.333
Michael: That's something I could, you
know, then it kind of motivates me to

00:40:45.333 --> 00:40:48.783
be like, "Oh, maybe I should reach out
to somebody and just check in," right?

00:40:49.393 --> 00:40:54.443
But that gratitude, that appreciation,
it's something that, you know, when

00:40:54.443 --> 00:40:58.473
I talk to my o-, my friends that
are dads, we don't talk about, like,

00:40:58.473 --> 00:40:59.573
what we're grateful for, right?

00:40:59.573 --> 00:41:02.543
We're talking about sports or
we're talking about whatever's

00:41:02.543 --> 00:41:03.313
going on in the moment.

00:41:03.443 --> 00:41:06.213
It's rare that we're like, "You
know, I'm just so grateful."

00:41:06.271 --> 00:41:06.791
Stephen: You know what, Mike?

00:41:06.791 --> 00:41:07.131
I try to

00:41:07.143 --> 00:41:07.261
Michael: do

00:41:07.311 --> 00:41:08.781
Stephen: that because you're right.

00:41:08.781 --> 00:41:10.751
You're 100% right that men don't do that.

00:41:10.751 --> 00:41:15.711
They almost see that as, as a sign of
vulnerability or, or somebody where,

00:41:15.711 --> 00:41:18.841
where, where they could be content with
something and they shouldn't be content,

00:41:18.841 --> 00:41:19.821
and they should always want more.

00:41:20.041 --> 00:41:24.371
And yes, and then that's, that's
the balance again, but when I talk

00:41:24.371 --> 00:41:27.651
to some of my friends and dads
especially, like in town and stuff

00:41:27.651 --> 00:41:30.191
like that, like I'll, I'll bring it up.

00:41:30.671 --> 00:41:31.481
I'll just be like, "You know what?

00:41:31.481 --> 00:41:34.711
Like at the end of the day, like I'm just
so grateful for that." And like you see

00:41:34.721 --> 00:41:40.941
once I bring it up, other dads are like,
like they immediately go like, "Yeah, I

00:41:40.941 --> 00:41:46.081
completely agree with you." And it's not
oftentimes where you can have that, even

00:41:46.081 --> 00:41:49.711
that 15 seconds of like real conversation
where they're like, "Yeah, you know what?

00:41:49.711 --> 00:41:52.931
Like it's, it's not that bad."

00:41:53.411 --> 00:41:53.451
You know?

00:41:53.627 --> 00:41:54.057
Michael: Exactly.

00:41:54.471 --> 00:41:55.991
Stephen: It's, it's, it's
actually pretty cool.

00:41:56.401 --> 00:41:58.841
And, you know, what, what's
the bigger picture here?

00:41:58.911 --> 00:42:00.871
It's not that he, my son hit a triple.

00:42:01.251 --> 00:42:04.801
It's the fact that, you know, he has
a home that loving you, and he's doing

00:42:04.801 --> 00:42:09.011
the right things, and he's gonna be
a good person, and he's, he's on his

00:42:09.011 --> 00:42:13.701
way to building that solid character
that you want for him in life.

00:42:13.851 --> 00:42:16.591
Yes, you know, there are gonna be
times when he hits that big hit and

00:42:16.591 --> 00:42:19.061
I'm jumping up off the ground and
I'm like, "Yes! Finally, all the

00:42:19.061 --> 00:42:22.711
work we've done and it's, it's coming
out." Like there's no shame in that.

00:42:22.711 --> 00:42:28.201
Like, of course, like, like we want that,
but at the end of the day, it's like,

00:42:28.271 --> 00:42:30.631
what, what, what are we really hoping for?

00:42:30.631 --> 00:42:35.061
We're really hoping to, to build
out these huge, amazing humans to

00:42:35.061 --> 00:42:38.191
then them raise amazing humans.

00:42:38.201 --> 00:42:42.011
Like that legacy, that bloodline that,
that, that we look for, it's like that's

00:42:42.031 --> 00:42:44.021
the real p-, that's the point of this.

00:42:44.021 --> 00:42:49.151
The point of this is to have them
become these humans that, that are gonna

00:42:49.151 --> 00:42:54.701
make the world better, and then their
impact on their, on your grandchildren

00:42:55.081 --> 00:42:56.171
and your great-grandchildren.

00:42:56.191 --> 00:42:58.681
Like that's the, that's the
thing that, that's so cool about

00:42:58.681 --> 00:42:59.891
being a parent and being a dad.

00:42:59.891 --> 00:43:03.561
It's like you can have such impact
on people you haven't even met yet.

00:43:03.991 --> 00:43:08.771
Like, and, and, and that to me is,
is something that I think about, too.

00:43:08.771 --> 00:43:14.271
It's like what, what, what I'm raising my
son, I'm raising my daughter, and I want

00:43:14.271 --> 00:43:17.801
them to have these values, and I want
them to understand it and be at their core

00:43:17.881 --> 00:43:24.261
and deep inside of them, so then when I
am 65, 75, 85 and I'm dead, and they are

00:43:24.261 --> 00:43:28.291
now raising, so their grand, that they
can be a grandfather and grandmother

00:43:28.621 --> 00:43:32.111
and look back at their grandchildren
because of things that we did when they

00:43:32.111 --> 00:43:34.409
were nine, 10, 12, 15 years old, right?

00:43:34.459 --> 00:43:34.999
Michael: Exactly.

00:43:35.329 --> 00:43:35.679
Yep.

00:43:35.951 --> 00:43:39.661
Stephen: It's like that to me is a, is
a motivator and, and a forward-thinking

00:43:40.061 --> 00:43:42.901
thing that I often think about,
and it doesn't matter if, if he

00:43:42.901 --> 00:43:44.541
hits a single or a double today.

00:43:44.541 --> 00:43:49.021
It matters like what he's going to do
with his children and what they're gonna

00:43:49.021 --> 00:43:52.181
do and how they're gonna raise him and
what, the world's gonna be so different

00:43:52.181 --> 00:43:56.511
then, but what can, what, what core
things can, can they, can we carry with

00:43:56.511 --> 00:43:58.181
them to make them into better humans?

00:43:58.779 --> 00:43:59.429
Michael: Exactly.

00:43:59.489 --> 00:44:05.169
That is, to me, that is my purpose
as a father, right, is to show them

00:44:05.169 --> 00:44:09.739
the opportunities that they can make
the world around them better, right?

00:44:09.739 --> 00:44:12.559
I know that they are probably
not going to cure cancer.

00:44:12.589 --> 00:44:16.609
I know they're probably, you
know, not going to single-handedly

00:44:16.609 --> 00:44:18.079
bring world peace, right?

00:44:18.429 --> 00:44:20.879
But they can accomplish things and
make the world a little bit better

00:44:20.879 --> 00:44:24.999
place for themselves and for those
that they're surrounded by, right?

00:44:24.999 --> 00:44:29.709
And, to me, that is like the ultimate
goal, but what also I want to highlight,

00:44:29.709 --> 00:44:33.619
because I think is one of the most
important things that we talk about

00:44:33.619 --> 00:44:38.099
is like you mentioned that when
you talk about gratitude with your

00:44:38.099 --> 00:44:42.979
friends, they embrace that, right?

00:44:43.009 --> 00:44:45.409
Like th-, you said, it could just
be a quick 15-second thing of

00:44:45.409 --> 00:44:48.029
like, "Oh yeah, you know what?
I'm grateful for that too," right?

00:44:48.119 --> 00:44:50.799
It's not something to shy away from.

00:44:50.969 --> 00:44:55.039
It's not something to be afraid
of, to share that gratitude, that

00:44:55.039 --> 00:44:57.359
appreciation with those around you.

00:44:57.969 --> 00:45:01.399
And yes, as men, we don't typically
talk about that enough, but I think

00:45:01.429 --> 00:45:04.699
the point that you're bringing, that
you brought up here is that it's okay

00:45:04.699 --> 00:45:08.709
to talk about it, and it actually
is very valuable, very beneficial.

00:45:08.819 --> 00:45:12.199
And that doesn't just help you because
you showing that appreciation brings

00:45:12.689 --> 00:45:19.119
some sort of satisfaction and meaning
to your life, but it also helps those

00:45:19.119 --> 00:45:20.819
around you to be like, "You know what?

00:45:21.599 --> 00:45:26.099
That, I can be appreciative, too, and
that's going to help my life and my kids."

00:45:26.269 --> 00:45:31.109
And the impact that a simple conversation,
a simple single line of like, "I'm just so

00:45:31.109 --> 00:45:36.409
grateful that, you know, my kid was able
to have this experience at school, or was

00:45:36.409 --> 00:45:38.309
able to take this trip or do whatever."

00:45:38.309 --> 00:45:44.309
Or that my son struck out because the ball
went, the umpire called two strikes that

00:45:44.309 --> 00:45:46.189
were way over his head, and you know what?

00:45:46.189 --> 00:45:47.959
The next game he turned
around and got a triple.

00:45:48.399 --> 00:45:53.519
And it was like, you know, he was
able to experience that not everything

00:45:53.519 --> 00:45:55.999
that ends badly actually ends badly.

00:45:56.039 --> 00:45:57.979
It will come around, right?

00:45:58.179 --> 00:45:59.759
And like I'm just grateful
he had that experience.

00:45:59.929 --> 00:46:03.099
And, you know, another dad will
probably be like, "Yeah, you know what?

00:46:03.099 --> 00:46:05.749
That happened to my kid too." And like
I didn't realize in the moment, but now

00:46:05.749 --> 00:46:09.709
I'm like, "Yeah, I'm grateful that they
were able to do that, too." I, I, it makes

00:46:09.709 --> 00:46:11.612
them feel a little bit happier, brings a
little bit more positivity to your life.

00:46:11.612 --> 00:46:15.119
So I just, I wanted to highlight that
because I think it's so, so important.

00:46:15.679 --> 00:46:18.009
I want to ask you one last question
before we get into the speed round.

00:46:20.569 --> 00:46:26.349
When you, at the end of the day, when
your kids eventually look back on this

00:46:26.359 --> 00:46:31.359
season of life, what do you hope they
remember most about who you were as a dad?

00:46:33.759 --> 00:46:34.509
Stephen: That's a great question.

00:46:36.599 --> 00:46:44.829
I think what I would love for them to
look back on, to me, is to someone who

00:46:47.979 --> 00:46:48.569
was fun.

00:46:49.619 --> 00:46:55.229
Someone who, who had fun with them,
someone who was able to laugh with them

00:46:57.649 --> 00:46:59.389
but also did things the right way.

00:46:59.679 --> 00:47:03.139
I want them to, one, something
that my, my daughter said to

00:47:03.139 --> 00:47:04.239
me and it made me like melt.

00:47:04.269 --> 00:47:07.749
It, it was like she said to me the other
day, she's, she's like, "Well, Dad does

00:47:07.749 --> 00:47:12.249
what he says." And I was just like, it
was so flippant, like just nonchalant.

00:47:12.249 --> 00:47:16.619
And I was like, "Really? You think
that? Like that's, that's amazing."

00:47:17.169 --> 00:47:22.769
Um, I want them to think that, that
Dad was a fun, a fun dad, a guy,

00:47:22.769 --> 00:47:24.349
a, a person who listened to them,

00:47:26.389 --> 00:47:31.289
a person who was, who was there to
pick them up when they fell down but

00:47:32.139 --> 00:47:33.959
showed them the, showed them the path.

00:47:34.339 --> 00:47:37.129
You know, I wanted them to lead by
example and show them that this is

00:47:37.139 --> 00:47:38.439
the right way to live your life.

00:47:38.909 --> 00:47:42.809
And then, for me, and then you
choose, you take what you learned from

00:47:42.809 --> 00:47:44.159
me, and then you make it your own.

00:47:44.306 --> 00:47:47.076
Michael: I think I'd have almost
word for word the same answer, right?

00:47:47.086 --> 00:47:55.016
It's like we, we recognize that we can,
we want our kids to see in us what we

00:47:55.016 --> 00:47:57.446
hope to see in them at the end of the day.

00:47:57.506 --> 00:48:03.116
And that's just so, to me as a father,
that is what means something, right?

00:48:03.116 --> 00:48:03.996
So, I love that answer.

00:48:03.996 --> 00:48:04.576
I think it's great.

00:48:04.886 --> 00:48:10.126
So we're gonna go from the, the
serious and the well-thought-out

00:48:10.476 --> 00:48:12.466
to the not so serious and

00:48:12.506 --> 00:48:13.066
Stephen: Alright, hit me.

00:48:13.376 --> 00:48:13.476
Michael: unthinkable.

00:48:13.646 --> 00:48:16.696
So, speed round, five quick questions
starting with what's the first kid

00:48:16.696 --> 00:48:18.016
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:48:20.192 --> 00:48:21.252
Stephen: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles.

00:48:22.116 --> 00:48:22.486
Michael: Love it.

00:48:23.046 --> 00:48:23.266
Love it.

00:48:23.286 --> 00:48:25.786
Now, which version of that
theme song, 'cause there are?

00:48:25.952 --> 00:48:26.622
Stephen: Oh, the '80s one.

00:48:26.622 --> 00:48:26.926
It's,

00:48:27.026 --> 00:48:27.332
Michael: The '80s one?

00:48:27.472 --> 00:48:28.216
Stephen: It's the only one.

00:48:28.266 --> 00:48:28.576
Michael: Yeah.

00:48:28.772 --> 00:48:29.142
Stephen: It's, it's…

00:48:29.142 --> 00:48:32.856
Michael: Well, I, I will put up the
argument, and I'm not saying you're wrong,

00:48:32.866 --> 00:48:35.294
'cause I, I probably do agree with you,
but there al- there's also the Vanilla Ice

00:48:35.294 --> 00:48:35.646
Stephen: Michael, I like you right now.

00:48:35.646 --> 00:48:35.976
Michael: version.

00:48:36.124 --> 00:48:36.444
Stephen: I like you right now.

00:48:36.444 --> 00:48:36.564
Stop.

00:48:36.714 --> 00:48:37.834
Don't, don't… You, you
don't have to go there.

00:48:38.506 --> 00:48:41.326
Michael: There was a Vanilla
Ice version from the, the movie.

00:48:41.568 --> 00:48:41.888
Stephen: Oh.

00:48:41.916 --> 00:48:42.826
Michael: I think it was the
first movie or the second movie.

00:48:43.188 --> 00:48:44.228
Stephen: The, the turtle rap.

00:48:44.716 --> 00:48:45.286
Michael: Yes.

00:48:45.636 --> 00:48:48.906
To me, I, I don't know why, but
that is a classic in my mind.

00:48:49.068 --> 00:48:50.508
Stephen: The turtle rap,
no, the turtle rap is great.

00:48:50.658 --> 00:48:51.218
Turtle rap's great.

00:48:51.218 --> 00:48:51.248
But

00:48:51.256 --> 00:48:51.468
Michael: I'm talking

00:48:51.468 --> 00:48:52.378
Stephen: about the cartoon

00:48:52.616 --> 00:48:53.056
Michael: Yes.

00:48:53.818 --> 00:48:54.238
Stephen: 60-second hit.

00:48:54.296 --> 00:48:54.546
Michael: 100%, yeah.

00:48:54.606 --> 00:48:55.076
Okay.

00:48:55.076 --> 00:48:56.636
Yeah, we're still on the same page.

00:48:56.808 --> 00:48:57.878
Stephen: That, that, we,
we, we play that in the car.

00:48:58.416 --> 00:48:58.636
Michael: Yeah.

00:48:59.486 --> 00:48:59.846
Love that.

00:48:59.846 --> 00:49:01.066
So what was your very first job?

00:49:02.690 --> 00:49:06.480
Stephen: My very first job I
sold, I sold Christmas trees.

00:49:07.108 --> 00:49:07.468
Michael: Oh, wow.

00:49:08.410 --> 00:49:12.680
Stephen: I sold Christmas trees at a
nursery for like a, for like a good six

00:49:12.680 --> 00:49:15.120
to eight weeks when I was like 14, 15.

00:49:16.590 --> 00:49:20.270
You know, tie them up on the
best I could up, up on, on top

00:49:20.270 --> 00:49:22.410
of the, the roofs in the '90s.

00:49:23.880 --> 00:49:26.540
And then my second job after
that, I was a pizza delivery guy.

00:49:27.222 --> 00:49:27.502
Michael: Oh, wow.

00:49:28.042 --> 00:49:32.572
I'd say the, the Christmas tree
sales cannot be an easy job between

00:49:32.592 --> 00:49:34.292
selling it and having to tie up the

00:49:34.586 --> 00:49:34.966
Stephen: No, no, and

00:49:35.202 --> 00:49:35.242
Michael: trees.

00:49:35.516 --> 00:49:37.496
Stephen: I didn't know what a
Douglas fir was or anything.

00:49:37.496 --> 00:49:39.436
I would just hold it up like,
"Yeah, this is a Douglas fir,"

00:49:39.986 --> 00:49:40.996
because I heard the word before.

00:49:41.526 --> 00:49:42.406
And people were like, "Oh, yeah.

00:49:42.406 --> 00:49:42.586
Really?

00:49:42.736 --> 00:49:43.146
It's great.

00:49:43.306 --> 00:49:46.166
How much is it?" "Oh, it's like 30 bucks."
You know, whatever it is, you know,

00:49:46.176 --> 00:49:47.876
because trees were so cheap back then.

00:49:49.146 --> 00:49:50.326
Or cheaper I should say.

00:49:50.366 --> 00:49:51.726
You know, it was all relative I guess.

00:49:51.726 --> 00:49:54.076
But, yeah, and it was great.

00:49:54.266 --> 00:49:58.666
And, and I was able to have, have a, have
a saw and cut off the stick and at, at 15,

00:49:58.706 --> 00:50:00.936
at, at the trunk and, and then tie it up.

00:50:00.956 --> 00:50:01.636
And it was cool.

00:50:01.636 --> 00:50:04.566
And we'd get like, you know,
a couple bucks for as a tip.

00:50:05.956 --> 00:50:06.566
So it was cool.

00:50:07.108 --> 00:50:07.598
Michael: That's great.

00:50:07.858 --> 00:50:08.178
Love that.

00:50:08.588 --> 00:50:10.728
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:50:10.728 --> 00:50:12.778
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:50:15.082 --> 00:50:20.202
Stephen: Toddler-sized T-Rex
or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:50:20.212 --> 00:50:21.552
A toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:50:22.944 --> 00:50:25.274
24 hours with a toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:50:25.582 --> 00:50:26.042
Michael: Why is that?

00:50:27.244 --> 00:50:29.934
Stephen: Because I never s-, meant, spent
time with a T-Rex before, and I think

00:50:30.324 --> 00:50:34.434
it would be pretty cool to feed it, to
put a leash on it, walk around with it,

00:50:34.924 --> 00:50:35.314
Michael: Right.

00:50:35.604 --> 00:50:36.784
Stephen: flex with it,
see what it does, go

00:50:36.884 --> 00:50:37.174
Michael: Exactly.

00:50:38.484 --> 00:50:39.334
Stephen: hunting with it, play Frisbee.

00:50:39.504 --> 00:50:39.904
I don't know.

00:50:39.914 --> 00:50:42.844
Like a, a T-Rex-sized
toddler sounds terrifying.

00:50:43.104 --> 00:50:46.344
Changing that di-, changing that
diaper, listening to those cries.

00:50:46.756 --> 00:50:47.066
Michael: Yeah.

00:50:47.614 --> 00:50:47.764
Stephen: No.

00:50:47.764 --> 00:50:47.956
No way.

00:50:47.956 --> 00:50:48.326
Michael: I hear you.

00:50:48.856 --> 00:50:50.116
Yeah, I, I understand.

00:50:50.356 --> 00:50:53.226
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:50:55.972 --> 00:50:57.062
Stephen: "Zombie" by Cranberries.

00:50:58.156 --> 00:50:58.656
Michael: Excellent.

00:50:58.726 --> 00:50:59.346
Good choice.

00:50:59.946 --> 00:51:02.166
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:51:02.166 --> 00:51:03.576
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:51:05.604 --> 00:51:07.214
Stephen: Oof, the weirdest thing.

00:51:08.214 --> 00:51:10.304
I carry ChapStick around a l-, a lot.

00:51:11.304 --> 00:51:12.104
The weirdest thing?

00:51:12.114 --> 00:51:13.374
That's a, that's a good question.

00:51:13.414 --> 00:51:15.584
Or the, the most unique thing.

00:51:16.584 --> 00:51:17.314
I don't know.

00:51:19.014 --> 00:51:20.044
I'm kind of boring in that sense.

00:51:20.044 --> 00:51:20.484
I, I don't know.

00:51:20.484 --> 00:51:24.224
I mean, I do carry a
knife in my, in my bag.

00:51:26.724 --> 00:51:28.354
But yeah, I don't, I don't know.

00:51:28.694 --> 00:51:30.404
I would guess ChapStick
would be the weirdest thing.

00:51:32.264 --> 00:51:35.054
Michael: I mean, the combination of
ChapStick and, and a knife are…

00:51:35.110 --> 00:51:35.450
Stephen: ChapStick.

00:51:35.450 --> 00:51:36.430
ChapStick and a little blade, yeah.

00:51:37.044 --> 00:51:37.344
Michael: Yeah.

00:51:37.514 --> 00:51:38.494
Not something you, you see every day.

00:51:38.610 --> 00:51:38.930
Stephen: It's weird out there.

00:51:38.930 --> 00:51:40.520
You know, New York City's
kinda strange, man.

00:51:40.570 --> 00:51:40.990
Michael: For sure.

00:51:41.600 --> 00:51:43.670
Well, Stephen, this has been a
really thoughtful conversation.

00:51:43.670 --> 00:51:44.260
I appreciate it.

00:51:44.290 --> 00:51:49.490
And normally this is where I allow you the
opportunity to kind of promote whatever

00:51:49.490 --> 00:51:51.950
you're, you're working on, but I, I
want to break this out into two parts.

00:51:52.460 --> 00:51:56.530
I want you, before we wrap up, I
want people to know where they can

00:51:56.630 --> 00:51:58.810
go to learn more about you, your
books, and the work you're doing,

00:51:58.810 --> 00:52:02.840
and then also I want to talk about
Taylor's Job Safari right after that.

00:52:02.840 --> 00:52:05.500
So let's start with like, where can people
go find you if they want to learn more

00:52:05.500 --> 00:52:08.480
about the children's books you're writing,
any of the work that you're doing?

00:52:08.534 --> 00:52:12.304
Stephen: We have five books we've
written on Forgotten Wisdom Books series.

00:52:14.274 --> 00:52:16.534
You can get them on
forgottenwisdombooks.com.

00:52:16.564 --> 00:52:19.804
The cool thing about each of those
stories is they come with a patch in the

00:52:19.804 --> 00:52:24.794
back of the book that the kids can be
incentivized to earn from their parents by

00:52:25.344 --> 00:52:25.924
Michael: emulating

00:52:25.924 --> 00:52:28.654
Stephen: or coming up with
a goal and a lesson that is

00:52:29.454 --> 00:52:30.844
simulated in the, in the story.

00:52:30.854 --> 00:52:33.804
So, I wanted it to be more interactive.

00:52:33.804 --> 00:52:34.964
I didn't want just to have a story.

00:52:34.964 --> 00:52:37.584
I wanted to have action
items after the story.

00:52:37.754 --> 00:52:40.034
And I think that's one of the big
things that people love about the

00:52:40.034 --> 00:52:43.004
books, is that there is this patch
the kids can love and, and it's

00:52:43.004 --> 00:52:44.044
almost like checking the box, right?

00:52:44.054 --> 00:52:47.104
It's like you set a goal, and
then you can earn this really cool

00:52:47.104 --> 00:52:49.474
patch that goes along with it.

00:52:49.474 --> 00:52:54.054
And it's kind of, it, it kind of
gives them, the, kids a, a, a story to

00:52:54.054 --> 00:52:57.314
tell about why they earned this patch
and what they did to accomplish it.

00:52:57.314 --> 00:53:00.904
So I love, I, you can get the books
on Amazon, too, but I always encourage

00:53:00.904 --> 00:53:04.994
people to go on forgottenwisdombooks.com
just because the patches are

00:53:05.004 --> 00:53:06.854
in the books on the website.

00:53:06.854 --> 00:53:10.564
If you go to Amazon, you just get the
book, you don't get the patch, and I think

00:53:10.574 --> 00:53:13.404
that's part of the, the best part of the,
one, one of the best parts of the book.

00:53:14.302 --> 00:53:14.482
Michael: Awesome.

00:53:14.502 --> 00:53:14.932
So cool.

00:53:14.932 --> 00:53:15.822
We'll put a link to that.

00:53:15.924 --> 00:53:16.124
Stephen: And you

00:53:16.162 --> 00:53:16.404
Michael: can also

00:53:16.454 --> 00:53:18.914
Stephen: go on Forgotten
Wisdom Books on my Instagram.

00:53:19.004 --> 00:53:24.054
I'm, I'm, I'm also uploading just
parenting advice and, and, and things

00:53:24.054 --> 00:53:25.024
about the stories in the books.

00:53:25.818 --> 00:53:26.058
Michael: Awesome.

00:53:26.398 --> 00:53:26.648
Awesome.

00:53:26.648 --> 00:53:27.628
We'll put that in the show notes as well.

00:53:27.958 --> 00:53:31.898
I also wanted to make sure we
mention Taylor's Job Safari,

00:53:31.898 --> 00:53:34.228
which is your daughter's project.

00:53:34.468 --> 00:53:38.148
It is one of the coolest
things I see online right now.

00:53:38.168 --> 00:53:39.438
It is so cool.

00:53:39.438 --> 00:53:43.028
Can you just kind of give us the backstory
and, like, where people can find it?

00:53:43.146 --> 00:53:45.126
Stephen: Yeah, so, w-, as I
mentioned before, my daughter's

00:53:45.126 --> 00:53:48.196
homeschooled this year, and she's
in fourth grade technically.

00:53:48.466 --> 00:53:50.276
She's nine turning 10 this year.

00:53:50.286 --> 00:53:52.306
She turned nine, start of
the season, now she's 10.

00:53:52.306 --> 00:53:56.376
And came up with an idea that we wanted
her to get some real-world experience

00:53:57.006 --> 00:54:00.626
and best utilize the time that she has
when she's technically at home in school.

00:54:01.106 --> 00:54:03.866
And so we wanted to give her almost
like a master class in different

00:54:03.866 --> 00:54:07.166
occupations that she finds interesting,
find experts in these fields.

00:54:07.556 --> 00:54:11.686
And so we had her list out 10 to,
10 to 20 occupations that she finds

00:54:11.686 --> 00:54:17.016
interesting, and then she would do
research on those occupations, whether

00:54:17.016 --> 00:54:23.786
it be news anchor or dancer or plumber
or firefighter or chef, veterinarian,

00:54:24.056 --> 00:54:25.666
all the different types of people.

00:54:25.676 --> 00:54:29.566
And then we would find them in the
real world, find an expert who is a

00:54:29.566 --> 00:54:34.316
veterinarian, who is a news anchor,
and then we would go and interview them

00:54:35.646 --> 00:54:37.066
Taylor, like, like my daughter would.

00:54:37.066 --> 00:54:38.076
So my daughter's name is Taylor.

00:54:38.076 --> 00:54:41.166
We call it Taylor's Job Safari
because she's literally going on

00:54:41.176 --> 00:54:45.296
different, completely different jobs
and almost looking, almost doing

00:54:45.296 --> 00:54:46.766
a day in the life of what it is.

00:54:46.766 --> 00:54:50.496
And so, you know, most recently we
did a hostage negotiator SWAT team.

00:54:51.266 --> 00:54:52.536
We've done musicians.

00:54:52.586 --> 00:54:55.176
We, she's been on live TV
before doing a news anchor.

00:54:55.766 --> 00:54:59.126
We did a beekeeper where she's had
to put on the whole beekeeper outfit

00:54:59.126 --> 00:55:01.606
and go harvest some honey, which
was kind of frightening for her.

00:55:02.806 --> 00:55:07.496
We've done such cool things that
we're, it's been such a blessing and

00:55:07.496 --> 00:55:10.216
such a great experience, talking about
gratitude, like this has been so cool.

00:55:10.546 --> 00:55:11.886
She's been a helicopter pilot.

00:55:12.136 --> 00:55:16.626
You know, we are doing in the future,
we have a pediatric oncology nurse we

00:55:16.626 --> 00:55:22.006
wanna do because she wants to meet people
that are helping sick kids with cancer.

00:55:22.076 --> 00:55:25.396
And so she wants to go and, and, and
talk to them and, and help promote

00:55:25.416 --> 00:55:26.646
them and what the work they do.

00:55:28.746 --> 00:55:31.246
You know, we've, we've done
so many different angles.

00:55:31.256 --> 00:55:33.566
She, she's done a blue collar
plumber before, like, and

00:55:33.566 --> 00:55:35.476
she's done a celebrity chef.

00:55:35.756 --> 00:55:39.306
Like she's done where she runs the
gamut on and, and, and not only is

00:55:39.306 --> 00:55:42.626
she running, running the different
models of people that we're talking

00:55:42.626 --> 00:55:44.726
to, but we're also curating it, too.

00:55:44.726 --> 00:55:46.406
We're also saying, "Hey, you
know, what about this job?

00:55:46.536 --> 00:55:50.766
This job would be really interesting to
do." Like for the hostage negotiator,

00:55:50.766 --> 00:55:54.996
we went, "How do you, how do you
talk to people that are extremely

00:55:54.996 --> 00:55:58.216
angry and stressed out, and how do
you get them to calm themselves?

00:55:58.336 --> 00:56:00.716
And how is that relatable to
kids?" Like when kids get super

00:56:00.716 --> 00:56:03.016
angry, how do you calm them down?

00:56:03.396 --> 00:56:05.636
You know, how do you get them to
understand that you're not making the

00:56:05.636 --> 00:56:06.846
right decisions when you're upset?

00:56:07.276 --> 00:56:11.576
And so we take a serious topic like
that and then, and then try to,

00:56:14.514 --> 00:56:17.294
change it so it would almost
be ha-, for, for kids.

00:56:18.734 --> 00:56:21.314
And so it br-, it's, it's such
a fun thing, and you can find

00:56:21.314 --> 00:56:22.604
that on Taylor's Job Safari.

00:56:22.604 --> 00:56:23.394
We're uploading

00:56:25.454 --> 00:56:26.354
episodes now on YouTube.

00:56:26.354 --> 00:56:29.644
And she did a UFC coach where
she got into an ice bath.

00:56:30.084 --> 00:56:33.364
She got into a freezing cold
ice bath for 30 seconds.

00:56:33.364 --> 00:56:36.764
I remember she stayed in there, and so
she wanted to learn what a UFC fighter

00:56:36.764 --> 00:56:40.024
has to go through to cut weight and do
all types of stuff and, and training

00:56:40.024 --> 00:56:41.634
and what the dedication it happens.

00:56:41.634 --> 00:56:46.134
And so what, what she learns is that
every single job, everyone has a passion,

00:56:46.134 --> 00:56:49.564
and they all had to do a significant
amount of work to get there, and they

00:56:49.574 --> 00:56:51.474
all, and they all enjoy what they do.

00:56:51.474 --> 00:56:53.034
Like a helicopter pilot had to pass that.

00:56:53.034 --> 00:56:56.844
They had to learn so many different
regulations and, and, and, and

00:56:56.844 --> 00:56:59.854
study to be able to, be able
to get that aviation license.

00:57:01.004 --> 00:57:04.764
The plumber has to learn all the different
things to, for safety protocols and

00:57:04.764 --> 00:57:07.114
to, he's the unsung hero of today.

00:57:07.114 --> 00:57:09.134
When there's a flood in the
house, if there's something wrong,

00:57:09.434 --> 00:57:10.974
like you're calling Super Mario.

00:57:10.974 --> 00:57:13.594
You're calling the plumber to
come and, and helping you out.

00:57:13.604 --> 00:57:19.964
And so we, I try to highlight a lot of
these people and, and to, and to see,

00:57:20.104 --> 00:57:22.024
have a new appreciation for what they do.

00:57:22.024 --> 00:57:25.074
And, and many times they're,
they're unsung, and so we wanna get

00:57:25.074 --> 00:57:27.254
them their, their day in the sun.

00:57:28.240 --> 00:57:28.790
Michael: That's awesome.

00:57:28.790 --> 00:57:30.150
I, I love everything about it.

00:57:30.150 --> 00:57:35.650
I think it's so fun to watch, so
interesting, and it's family-friendly.

00:57:35.650 --> 00:57:36.230
It's just so great.

00:57:36.230 --> 00:57:39.960
And so that's Taylor's Job
Safari on YouTube, Instagram.

00:57:40.780 --> 00:57:43.070
Stephen: It's on Instagram
and, and YouTube.

00:57:43.500 --> 00:57:46.960
And, you know, one of the things that
we, we really wanted to do is, is

00:57:46.960 --> 00:57:52.430
with that show is, is we didn't want
Taylor's identity to be tied to the

00:57:52.430 --> 00:57:54.690
likes and the subscribes and the views.

00:57:54.710 --> 00:57:55.690
That was one of the big things.

00:57:55.690 --> 00:57:58.840
The reason why it's a show is because
if I just said, "Hey this homeschool

00:57:58.850 --> 00:58:03.770
girl wants to come meet with you," w-,
they'll be like, "No we don't have time."

00:58:03.820 --> 00:58:07.900
But if I call it a show and I say,
"Hey, we're gonna film it, we're gonna

00:58:07.900 --> 00:58:09.800
interview you," people make time.

00:58:10.400 --> 00:58:13.870
And so we do that, and so we get
that, that's our, the way to get in

00:58:13.870 --> 00:58:16.000
and talk to these people oftentimes.

00:58:16.100 --> 00:58:21.190
And now that we've posted some of
these online, you know, we wanna

00:58:21.190 --> 00:58:24.910
make sure that her identity and
her value that she sees in these

00:58:24.910 --> 00:58:26.590
experiences are not tied to views.

00:58:26.820 --> 00:58:30.380
If those views come, great,
wonderful, but if they don't, that

00:58:30.380 --> 00:58:34.290
doesn't take away the fact that she
got to meet, she went on live TV.

00:58:34.290 --> 00:58:36.610
It doesn't take away the fact that
she got in a helicopter and, and

00:58:36.610 --> 00:58:39.370
went up in the air by herself and sat
in the, and sat in the pilot chair.

00:58:39.780 --> 00:58:42.110
It doesn't take away the, the fact
that she met one of her favorite

00:58:42.480 --> 00:58:44.750
musical groups, got to interview them.

00:58:44.760 --> 00:58:47.280
Like, so many different experiences
that she's gotten, she's gotten to

00:58:47.280 --> 00:58:52.320
do doesn't take away the fact that if
only grandma sub-, subscribes, right?

00:58:53.490 --> 00:58:56.700
But if people find it and they
like it and they enjoy it, I mean

00:58:56.950 --> 00:58:58.930
that, that's, that's also great.

00:58:59.848 --> 00:59:00.738
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:59:00.998 --> 00:59:02.898
Well, Stephen, this was such a
grounded and important conversation.

00:59:02.898 --> 00:59:09.398
I really appreciate you coming on here
and being so raw and honest about the

00:59:09.398 --> 00:59:15.858
challenges that our kids face on a
day-to-day basis, especially in the world

00:59:15.858 --> 00:59:18.818
that we're living in now, which was very
different than the world that me and you

00:59:18.968 --> 00:59:21.748
grew up in, you know, back in the '80s.

00:59:21.818 --> 00:59:28.678
And I appreciate how practical your
ideas are, where they might seem,

00:59:28.738 --> 00:59:31.398
some of them might seem, like call
and response type stuff might seem

00:59:31.408 --> 00:59:34.498
simple on the surface, but it's super
powerful at the same time, right?

00:59:34.628 --> 00:59:38.518
And it's easy to implement when
you find the right solution for,

00:59:39.058 --> 00:59:40.428
for your particular situation.

00:59:40.928 --> 00:59:45.788
I appreciate how you, these
intentional choices, I-, I'll call

00:59:45.788 --> 00:59:48.598
them intentional, I presume they're
intentional, that, that you make on

00:59:48.598 --> 00:59:52.968
a regular basis, they still do matter
and they, they do make a difference.

00:59:53.278 --> 00:59:55.628
And I'm grateful you took the
time to, to be here and share

00:59:55.628 --> 00:59:56.768
your perspective on that today.

00:59:56.768 --> 00:59:57.748
So thank you so much.

00:59:58.058 --> 00:59:58.168
I appreciate it.

00:59:59.802 --> 00:59:59.972
Stephen: Thank you, Michael.

00:59:59.972 --> 01:00:02.112
It's been great to talk to you, and I, and
I love what you're doing with Gap to Gig.

01:00:02.112 --> 01:00:06.162
I think it's so important for,
for men, to families to hear this,

01:00:06.542 --> 01:00:09.932
to hear some of the stories and
the guests you have, to keep men

01:00:10.012 --> 01:00:10.072
Michael: Thank you.

01:00:10.072 --> 01:00:10.462
I appreciate that.

01:00:10.532 --> 01:00:14.212
Stephen: Motivated and to understand that,
like, you know, all the different phases

01:00:14.222 --> 01:00:18.892
in their life, you know, it's, you're not,
you're not judged by what you are today.

01:00:18.892 --> 01:00:20.492
You're judged by how you react, right?

01:00:20.732 --> 01:00:22.132
The same thing, everyone falls.

01:00:22.502 --> 01:00:23.452
Tough ones get back up.

01:00:24.248 --> 01:00:24.378
Michael: Right.

01:00:24.668 --> 01:00:27.028
And most importantly, I think
you're not alone, right?

01:00:27.058 --> 01:00:30.878
Like, other dads are going
through similar situations, right?

01:00:30.958 --> 01:00:34.048
As unique as your situation may
be, you're not the only one going

01:00:34.048 --> 01:00:38.348
through something similar, and we're
here, and there, there are these

01:00:38.348 --> 01:00:41.108
conversations to, to be had around that.

01:00:41.778 --> 01:00:42.738
So again, thank you, Stephen.

01:00:42.738 --> 01:00:43.418
I appreciate it.

01:00:43.458 --> 01:00:45.578
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

01:00:45.578 --> 01:00:48.368
find yourself in between navigating
a season that feels different,

01:00:48.768 --> 01:00:51.398
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

01:00:51.618 --> 01:00:54.678
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

01:00:54.858 --> 01:00:56.078
and what really matters right now.

01:00:56.398 --> 01:00:58.658
And if this conversation resonated,
please consider sending it to another

01:00:58.658 --> 01:00:59.608
dad who might need to hear it.

01:01:00.058 --> 01:01:01.578
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

01:01:01.798 --> 01:01:03.648
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.