Shaun Dawson on Fatherhood, Identity, and Redefining Work-Life Balance for Dads

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Shaun: It's not just about the paycheck.

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And I mean, I think that a vast
majority of men see that as

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central, and maybe it is central.

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Maybe it's the most important thing.

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It's, it's definitely measurable
and, and it's definitely important.

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You need to have financial security,
but financial security isn't, is

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necessary, but not sufficient.

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You also need emotional security.

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You need, and, and you know, that's
probably the harder and more vital job.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today's guest is Shaun Dawson.

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Shaun's a husband, father of two, tech
leader, and the host of the Raising

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Men podcast, where he's asking a
question a lot of dads quietly wrestle

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with: what does it really mean to
raise boys into strong, emotionally

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grounded men in today's world?

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What I appreciate about Shaun's approach
is that he's not positioning himself

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as the expert with all the answers.

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He's a dad doing the work in real time.

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He's exploring character, emotional
resilience, digital life, modern

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masculinity, and what leadership at
home actually looks like when you walk

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through the door after a long day at work.

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Shaun, I'm really glad you're here.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Shaun: Thank you, Michael.

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I really appreciate the
opportunity to be here.

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Michael: My pleasure.

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So you've said something to me before that
really stuck with me, which was, none of

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the work matters more than who my kids
experience when I walk through the door.

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So I kind of wanna start there with you.

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When you think about the phrase "raising
men", the name of your podcast, what does

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that mean to you personally right now?

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Not in theory, but like
in your actual home.

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Shaun: Yeah.

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No, I love that question and I, I
think it, it moves, you know, beyond

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the achievement metrics that we obsess
over and, and, you know, we obsess over

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those achievement metrics for our egos.

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It is, you know, we'll make
excuses that I wanna make a lot

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of money to provide for my family.

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And that's a value by the way.

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That's not, that's, that's
not, that's not nothing.

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But, you know, those sorts of
things are, are, you know, just

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kind of ways of measuring and,
and they're not the core thing.

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And, and you really want to be focused on
character development and, and in my home

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that really amounts to managing tensions.

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You know, I, I, helping my son
navigate the tension between his

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natural drive for independence
and his need for connection, and

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oftentimes, happening at the same time.

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It's about teaching him to be
a protector, right, who makes

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people self feel safe, right?

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And, and, and, and practically it's about,
it's about modeling how to handle, for me,

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this is, I, I mean, I struggle with this.

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So for me it's about how to model
frustration, handling frustration

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without dropping into what I call
the Conan the Barbarian brain.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Picture that.

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I can picture that completely.

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Do you feel like your sense to want to
protect, in a way, does that help or

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hinder when your son is trying to become
more dependent or more independent?

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Sorry.

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Shaun: The, the answer is yes, right?

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Like, like most things, and this was
the one of the fundamental things that

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I've realized, especially since, since
starting this podcast and talking to a lot

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of people who are way smarter than I am.

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It is, but, but, I started that
realization, this realization when

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I, I first became a dad, which
is that everything is attention.

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And so if anyone ever comes to you
and says, ah, it's this way, and it's,

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you know, there, there's, there's no,
there's no other way to be, that, you

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should always look for the opposite
of that and then, and then figure

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out how to manage that tension.

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Nobody's, that, that has never been true.

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And, and so, there's this tension between
connection and independence, and you're,

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my son, you know, wants to be somewhere
on that spectrum at all times and, and

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where he wants to be, you know, I, I
need to figure out how to meet him there.

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And sometimes that's, boy,
that's really, really hard.

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One, one of the, one of the tensions that
I deal with constantly with my own kids is

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they will try to manipulate me by
making me feel bad or by pressing my

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buttons or dropping me into Conan brain.

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It's like they're pushing my
buttons to see how I react.

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And, and, and if I, if I react in a
stable way, then they'll feel safe.

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And they'll feel connected.

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And if I react the way out of
frustration and I'm angry and I yell

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at them, then they won't feel that way.

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And, and it's almost like they're trying
to prove that, that I'm a monster, right?

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It's like it is, they're so good at it.

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And part of my problem is I
am not an angry guy at all.

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In my whole life, I've never really had
to deal with a whole lot of anger, and

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yet my kids could push my buttons in a
way that I've never experienced before.

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And so I think, you know, to some
extent, if I had to deal with anger,

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unhealthy anger at a younger age, I
would have skills now that I, that

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I would've developed over time and,
but instead, I, I've never really

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developed those skills and so having
my kids press my buttons in, in a way

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has, has been a new experience for me.

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And I experience anger that
I'd never experienced before.

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And so I've had to learn to deal with it.

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Michael: That's interesting that
you're, you're in this new experience,

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essentially, right, as a father that
have, you weren't a, typically, I

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think as a father, we model what
we know, what we've seen, right?

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And our kids do the same, right?

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So, you didn't have the same
experiences growing up that necessarily

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your kids had to kinda figure out
what is the right reaction, if

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I'm understanding you correctly.

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: And, it's, you found it to be
important to model certain reactions,

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certain behaviors, back to your children,

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: right?

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: And, you know, you say that
you are, you know, you feel like they're

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always trying to push your buttons,
but, in essence, to me, it feels

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like they're testing the boundaries
because they are trying to, they are

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going to model what your reaction is

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: down the road, right?

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Like you are...

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Shaun: Yeah, yeah, you're right.

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They're running little experiments.

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Michael: Right, if you react in a calmer
manner, most likely, they're gonna

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be like, okay, that is the way I'm
supposed to react in this situation.

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If you react like Conan the
Barbarian, they're gonna think,

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oh, well it's okay to do that.

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: Lemme see how much
further I can take it, right,

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and just keep building on that.

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It's really interesting 'cause like,
yeah, you didn't have that experience

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where there was a lot of Conan the
Barbarian type reactions to you.

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Is it, as a child, or that
you experience that much.

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: Now, you're like,
okay, my kids are exploring the

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world and it's different times.

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It's, they've had different experiences,
they've been exposed to different things.

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What, you know, maybe not the same things
that I did, so how do I react to that in a

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way that is healthy for them, that models
behaviors that are, that work for them?

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Because in essence, you know, that's
what they're gonna model back to you.

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So you can, it's almost a self
perpetuating, I dunno what the right word

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is, maybe prophecy that like if you go
very, if you re-, respond very angrily,

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: then they're probably
gonna respond in a similar way

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and just, it'll keep building
that more and more tension, right?

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Whereas if you respond in a more calm
way, you would hope that they are going

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to model back to you calm behavior, and
you perpetuate a more calm environment.

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Shaun: That's exactly right.

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Michael: But at the same time, you're
also trying to protect them, right?

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So you have to kinda show 'em what's
right, what's wrong, and not always

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is the response supposed to be calm.

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: Right, so, that's
like, there is that tension.

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I, I think what's interesting to me also
what you said is that, like, you had

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mentioned earlier that someone could be
like, oh, this is the only way to do it.

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This is the way you have to do it, right?

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Shaun: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: And most of us don't
live in the extremes, right?

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We live somewhere in between, which
is what I think you're, you're getting

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at here for like, you know, depend,
your kids are somewhere in the middle

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of the extremes of it has to be
this way or it has to be that way.

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Usually, it's like, okay, they might
be a little bit more energetic today,

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a little less energetic tomorrow.

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Where, they're not typically operating
and, and sometimes it happens right

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where they go, where the kids or yourself
as a father, like go in those extreme,

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have those extreme reactions, right,

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: but we don't typically there.

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Shaun: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: So I find that
really interesting.

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I'm wondering, like, you're a tech
leader, you're a dad of two, right?

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Shaun: Yeah.

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Michael: So, you have a son and a
daughter, if I remember correctly?

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Shaun: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: How has fatherhood
reshaped the way you think

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about ambition and success now?

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Shaun: Yeah, this is another thing
that I really struggle with and I,

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and I had children late in life.

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My son was born when I was 45 and he's
seven now, and my daughter is three.

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And, you know, for me, when, when
I was younger, ambition was kind

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of this straight line towards
you know, towards output, towards

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status, towards financial reward.

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And, now I, I'm a lot more focused
on trying to upgrade my own operating

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system so that my kids don't
inherit my bugs, right, and, and you

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mentioned, like, when I was growing
up, the world was so different, it

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might as well be a, a foreign planet

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Michael: Yep.

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Shaun: Then from the one that my son
is gonna graduate into, and it's my

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job to make sure that he can thrive in
the world as it is today and as it will

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be when he comes of age, and I think
maybe it was a little bit easier, you

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know, 50 years ago because the world
didn't change as fast as it did, and

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technology didn't come online as quickly
as it did, and we didn't have the kinds

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of things that could short circuit our
brains, the, the, the way we do now.

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But I, I really do think that, that
we need to, you know, my son, in order

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to thrive in the culture that he will
graduate into, will need an upgraded

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operating system over the one that I
was, that, that got installed in me.

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And the best way to install an
upgraded operating system in your

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children is to have one yourself
and to model that behavior.

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That's 80, 90% of it.

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And so, you know, and, and, and
true success is not winning at

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work while losing at home, right?

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It's building, it's winning at work
is part of it, but you need to build

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this strong base from which the,
your kids can eventually launch into

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their own lives and, and thrive.

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And so it, what I ended up kind of
reframing what it meant to be a provider.

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It's not just about the paycheck.

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And I mean, I think that the
vast majority of men see that as

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central, and maybe it is central.

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Maybe it's the most important thing.

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It's, it's definitely measurable,
and, and it's definitely important.

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You need to have financial security,
but financial security isn't, is

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necessary, but not sufficient.

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You also need emotional security.

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You need and, and, you know, men, that's
probably the harder and more vital job.

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And, and it doesn't come as
naturally to men as, as I think

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the financial security aspect does.

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Michael: Right.

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Right.

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And it seems like, from what you're
saying, that the ambition and road to

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success becomes, it goes from being
almost a singular focus or being

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focused on yourself, and then when
you become a father, or even before

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you become a father, if you have a
partner, it's like it starts to expand.

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Your world of ambition is for more than
just what you can accomplish, right?

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You wanna see what the next
generation is going to accomplish.

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You wanna set your family up, the people
that matter to you most, set them up for

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success and give them opportunity, right?

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Shaun: Yeah, I, I heard a quote one time,
which was that, and it, I mean, I don't

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know where it came from, but it's that
your kids are the only people that you

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want to be more successful than you.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Shaun: I think that's right.

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Michael: Yeah.

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I mean, certainly.

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For me, at least, it's like, yes,
I hope my kids, my, and I feel

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like I'll have the most success
when my kids have more success.

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Shaun: That's right.

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Yeah.

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Michael: Right?

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Like, that is the ultimate
dream, the ultimate goal for me.

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Shaun: Yeah, yeah.

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Same here.

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But there, there's a tension
when there too, right?

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Because, you know, I have this experience.

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I, I, I struggle with sports.

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You know, my son is really into basketball
and he is, he's, he loves being good

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at things and he is pretty good.

00:13:31.597 --> 00:13:33.247
I mean, he is naturally
good at a lot of things.

00:13:33.247 --> 00:13:37.567
He's pretty athletic and, but you
know, he's barely played basketball.

00:13:37.657 --> 00:13:40.867
He should not be expected to be able
to sink a basket every time and to

00:13:40.867 --> 00:13:43.297
do as well as a lot of the other kids
that have been playing for years,

00:13:43.892 --> 00:13:44.152
Michael: Right.

00:13:45.267 --> 00:13:45.937
Shaun: and, yet, he does.

00:13:45.967 --> 00:13:49.657
And so he gets demoralized about it and
I really want him to succeed because

00:13:49.717 --> 00:13:54.487
sports has been such a foundational
and valuable part of my life.

00:13:55.687 --> 00:13:58.567
And I didn't get into it later,
until later in life, and I wish I

00:13:58.567 --> 00:14:01.927
did, I gotten into it earlier, and
so I want him to catch the bug,

00:14:02.917 --> 00:14:03.097
Michael: Yep.

00:14:03.227 --> 00:14:06.277
Shaun: but I find, and I find him getting,
I find him getting really frustrated

00:14:06.277 --> 00:14:12.337
at, you know, when he's not really
participating in or he's not listening to

00:14:12.337 --> 00:14:13.837
his coach or he is lying on the ground.

00:14:13.837 --> 00:14:17.317
And, and I, I start getting
frustrated and, and, and a lot of that

00:14:17.317 --> 00:14:20.617
frustration has to do with my own ego.

00:14:20.737 --> 00:14:25.927
I want him to be good at basketball
because I want that for myself.

00:14:25.927 --> 00:14:30.517
I want to be the father
of a, an elite athlete.

00:14:31.597 --> 00:14:34.627
Well, that is counterproductive actually.

00:14:36.217 --> 00:14:41.212
I, I, it's likely to get him, it's
likely to produce the opposite of that.

00:14:41.362 --> 00:14:43.102
It won't generate the passion.

00:14:43.132 --> 00:14:46.222
It will likely generate resentment
and, and all those things.

00:14:46.222 --> 00:14:50.092
I recognize that intellectually, but man,
is it difficult to connect that to the

00:14:50.092 --> 00:14:52.882
sense of frustration that I feel when
I watch him floundering around on the

00:14:52.882 --> 00:14:54.142
floor and not listening to his coach.

00:14:54.967 --> 00:14:59.267
Michael: Yeah, I think that's
fairly common occurrence, right?

00:14:59.267 --> 00:15:03.577
And I, I've coached youth sports
before and I've seen it, right?

00:15:03.577 --> 00:15:05.227
Some of these parents, I mean,
they're living through their

00:15:05.227 --> 00:15:07.717
kids in, in many instances.

00:15:08.107 --> 00:15:14.657
And, for me, like when I define
success for my kids, it's not

00:15:14.657 --> 00:15:24.037
necessarily win or lose, it's more
around happiness and health and doing

00:15:24.037 --> 00:15:26.767
good, like expanding their horizons.

00:15:26.767 --> 00:15:29.347
To me, that is more success.

00:15:29.347 --> 00:15:31.747
Like, I know my kids aren't
gonna be professional athletes.

00:15:32.017 --> 00:15:32.767
I'm okay with that.

00:15:32.827 --> 00:15:34.777
I know they're not gonna
solve cancer, cure cancer.

00:15:35.467 --> 00:15:36.277
I'm okay with that, right?

00:15:36.472 --> 00:15:36.802
Shaun: Yeah.

00:15:37.047 --> 00:15:39.533
Michael: Like, I'll celebrate the parents
of the kids who end up curing cancer.

00:15:40.173 --> 00:15:44.494
More power to you, but, like,
I know there's certain limits.

00:15:44.779 --> 00:15:45.109
Shaun: Yeah.

00:15:47.324 --> 00:15:52.054
Michael: And, to me, I'd rather my
kids be happy than win a game, right?

00:15:52.054 --> 00:15:55.219
And, I think, there goes, a lot more,
goes into making sure the kids are

00:15:55.429 --> 00:15:58.879
happy, and part of that is making
sure they do feel safe, right?

00:15:58.879 --> 00:16:02.509
Like you want that protection
mode in there, but it also means

00:16:02.509 --> 00:16:05.339
allowing them to explore the things
that are of interest to them.

00:16:05.479 --> 00:16:05.769
Shaun: Yeah.

00:16:06.319 --> 00:16:08.719
Michael: And, you know, today,
the interest might be basketball,

00:16:08.719 --> 00:16:10.549
tomorrow the interest might be art.

00:16:10.549 --> 00:16:12.079
The day after that, the
interest might be music.

00:16:12.079 --> 00:16:13.399
The day after that it might be hockey.

00:16:13.429 --> 00:16:14.009
I mean, it could be...

00:16:14.059 --> 00:16:14.349
Shaun: Yeah.

00:16:14.719 --> 00:16:14.959
Michael: Right?

00:16:15.439 --> 00:16:17.359
Kids are, they're exploring,
they're learning, right?

00:16:17.739 --> 00:16:19.159
Shaun: Right, and it's
appropriate for them to do that.

00:16:19.159 --> 00:16:22.339
And at some point, you know, maybe they
will catch the bug and maybe they will

00:16:22.339 --> 00:16:24.919
get really passionate about something
and really wanna excel and start

00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:26.269
watching it on TV and all those things.

00:16:26.269 --> 00:16:26.659
Great.

00:16:27.469 --> 00:16:30.379
What, all you can really do
is prepare the soil for that.

00:16:31.519 --> 00:16:31.789
Michael: Right.

00:16:33.319 --> 00:16:36.079
Right, and like, like with my
son, like he did not like watching

00:16:36.079 --> 00:16:38.149
sports on TV when he was younger.

00:16:38.479 --> 00:16:40.544
When he became a teenager, there was
like a switch that went off, right?

00:16:40.554 --> 00:16:40.844
Shaun: Yeah.

00:16:41.209 --> 00:16:43.939
Michael: And all of a sudden now it's
like he watches every game, every

00:16:43.939 --> 00:16:46.044
hockey game, every football game,
every basketball game he can watch.

00:16:47.104 --> 00:16:52.594
Right, he just, he, he found that interest
later, but he explored a lot of different

00:16:52.594 --> 00:16:55.294
things in the process of getting there.

00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:55.719
Shaun: Yeah.

00:16:55.984 --> 00:16:58.144
Michael: And were they things
that I was interested in?

00:16:58.474 --> 00:16:59.254
Sometimes.

00:17:00.154 --> 00:17:04.234
Sometimes they weren't, right, but at
some point I had to just let go, right?

00:17:04.234 --> 00:17:09.724
I had to let him figure it
out in a safe way, right?

00:17:09.724 --> 00:17:12.904
Like, I'm not gonna throw him
into football without getting him

00:17:12.904 --> 00:17:16.309
equipment or, you know, just have
him start playing in the backyard and

00:17:16.309 --> 00:17:19.029
tackling kids without knowing what,
you know, good technique is, but,

00:17:19.029 --> 00:17:19.319
Shaun: Yeah.

00:17:20.569 --> 00:17:24.049
Michael: you know, I, if that was
what he was interested in, okay, we'll

00:17:24.049 --> 00:17:25.939
try it out for a little bit, right,

00:17:25.939 --> 00:17:27.529
and see where it goes.

00:17:27.539 --> 00:17:30.559
'Cause once he tries it, you know, he
got into hockey, but the first time

00:17:30.559 --> 00:17:32.649
he ever tried hockey, he hated it.

00:17:32.659 --> 00:17:33.189
He left the rink.

00:17:33.319 --> 00:17:34.369
He was like, I don't wanna do this.

00:17:34.594 --> 00:17:34.924
Shaun: Wow.

00:17:34.979 --> 00:17:36.319
Michael: A couple years later,
he's like, I wanna try this again.

00:17:36.409 --> 00:17:36.799
And he did it.

00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:38.869
And that became his passion,
and that was all he did.

00:17:39.184 --> 00:17:39.544
Shaun: Yeah.

00:17:39.679 --> 00:17:40.359
Michael: He's like... you just never know.

00:17:40.534 --> 00:17:40.894
Shaun: Yeah.

00:17:41.389 --> 00:17:41.539
Michael: Right?

00:17:41.539 --> 00:17:43.369
Yes, I could control what he does.

00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:45.199
I could be like, no,
you're not playing hockey.

00:17:45.199 --> 00:17:47.849
You're only gonna do basketball
for the rest of your life or

00:17:47.899 --> 00:17:48.319
Shaun: Mm-hmm.

00:17:48.439 --> 00:17:49.209
Michael: for the rest of your childhood.

00:17:49.339 --> 00:17:50.629
Like, that's the only
thing I'll take you to.

00:17:51.064 --> 00:17:51.274
Shaun: Yeah.

00:17:51.509 --> 00:17:52.459
Michael: What good is that gonna do him?

00:17:52.459 --> 00:17:52.639
Right?

00:17:52.639 --> 00:17:56.329
Like, what opportunity is
that actually giving him?

00:17:56.374 --> 00:17:56.674
Shaun: Yeah.

00:17:57.199 --> 00:17:58.849
Michael: So it's, it's interesting.

00:18:00.529 --> 00:18:04.729
It, I like how you, you
understand, you recognize, right?

00:18:04.729 --> 00:18:08.659
Like, I think a lot of parents don't
recognize the position that they're in

00:18:09.139 --> 00:18:12.589
and they just become so over zealous,
right, and they're just like, my

00:18:12.589 --> 00:18:13.939
kid's gotta be great at basketball.

00:18:13.939 --> 00:18:14.899
He's gotta practice.

00:18:14.899 --> 00:18:15.649
He's gotta do this.

00:18:15.649 --> 00:18:16.339
He's gotta do that.

00:18:16.339 --> 00:18:18.079
I'm gonna keep taking him to the gym.

00:18:18.079 --> 00:18:20.594
I'm gonna make sure he, you know,
takes a hundred shots a day,

00:18:20.604 --> 00:18:20.894
Shaun: Yeah.

00:18:20.989 --> 00:18:21.854
Michael: whatever it's gonna be, right?

00:18:21.884 --> 00:18:22.174
Shaun: Yeah.

00:18:22.489 --> 00:18:24.499
Michael: You recognize like,
yeah, I like to see him succeed.

00:18:24.499 --> 00:18:29.659
I like to see him have fun playing
basketball, but, you know, if he

00:18:29.689 --> 00:18:32.689
loses interest in that, I think
he recognized that, yeah, maybe

00:18:32.689 --> 00:18:33.949
he's gotta try some other stuff.

00:18:34.669 --> 00:18:38.719
Shaun: Yeah, there, there's
something that is really frustrating

00:18:38.749 --> 00:18:42.934
about watching your kids, and

00:18:44.994 --> 00:18:48.724
it's almost like you get to go back
in time and live your life over again.

00:18:49.999 --> 00:18:54.469
And if you did, then you would do this
thing and then you want, so there you want

00:18:54.469 --> 00:18:58.929
them to do this thing because you can see
into the future and you can recognize that

00:18:58.929 --> 00:19:05.869
if you just got really passionate about
basketball and because you know that you

00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:11.059
have it within you and that if you did
a hundred shots a day that you are early

00:19:11.059 --> 00:19:15.829
enough and you achieved enough early on,
then you'd start getting on the good teams

00:19:15.829 --> 00:19:18.439
and all of that, and that would really
propel you and that would change your

00:19:18.439 --> 00:19:22.459
life in these ways that you can recognize
from looking back at your own life.

00:19:23.299 --> 00:19:27.424
And so it's almost like you're
trying to, I mean, that's like

00:19:27.574 --> 00:19:30.634
literally, almost literally trying
to live through your children

00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:31.709
Michael: Right.

00:19:31.934 --> 00:19:34.414
Shaun: and that is a lot to put on them.

00:19:35.179 --> 00:19:36.589
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:19:37.369 --> 00:19:41.809
Do you think some of that frustration
perhaps that we feel in those

00:19:41.809 --> 00:19:44.779
situations is a lack of control?

00:19:45.259 --> 00:19:47.899
Because like when we were kids,
like we control, we felt like we

00:19:47.909 --> 00:19:49.229
controlled like what we did, right,

00:19:49.619 --> 00:19:49.909
Shaun: Yeah.

00:19:50.089 --> 00:19:51.319
Michael: and your kid probably
wants to be like, I wanna play

00:19:51.319 --> 00:19:55.909
basketball today, but I only want
to play, you know, for 20 minutes.

00:19:55.909 --> 00:19:57.829
I don't want to do, you know,
take a hundred shots in the gym.

00:19:57.829 --> 00:19:59.659
I wanna play in a, play in an
actual game or something, right?

00:19:59.749 --> 00:20:00.199
Shaun: Yeah.

00:20:00.449 --> 00:20:03.709
Michael: You can't control
whether he goes and takes an

00:20:03.754 --> 00:20:04.824
extra a hundred shots every day.

00:20:05.414 --> 00:20:12.934
But do you think there's some element of
letting go of control that kind of feeds

00:20:12.934 --> 00:20:19.024
this, I, I don't know if I wanna call
it frustration or not, but disconnect?

00:20:19.174 --> 00:20:21.634
Shaun: Yeah, I think, I think
that's definitely part of it.

00:20:21.934 --> 00:20:25.564
I think that, I mean, for me, personally,

00:20:27.679 --> 00:20:30.484
it, it's my ego seeping out.

00:20:30.634 --> 00:20:38.584
There's some aspect of, of me that
wants my child to succeed for him.

00:20:39.454 --> 00:20:43.054
And there's some aspect, there's
another part of me that wants my

00:20:43.054 --> 00:20:47.734
child to succeed because I want to
be the parent of a child who succeeds

00:20:48.704 --> 00:20:49.054
Michael: Right.

00:20:49.184 --> 00:20:50.414
Shaun: because what it says about me.

00:20:51.724 --> 00:20:52.594
And,

00:20:55.234 --> 00:21:00.564
I think when I experience frustration
about that, I think that it's

00:21:00.604 --> 00:21:02.834
because of that second thing.

00:21:04.054 --> 00:21:04.324
Michael: Yep.

00:21:05.704 --> 00:21:08.584
Shaun: Why would I experience
frustration if he's not gonna succeed

00:21:08.884 --> 00:21:10.174
if he doesn't care about succeeding?

00:21:10.384 --> 00:21:12.124
I won't experience frustration about that.

00:21:12.754 --> 00:21:15.964
I might think that's a mistake,
but he makes mistakes all the time.

00:21:15.964 --> 00:21:17.074
Like, that's good.

00:21:17.104 --> 00:21:18.064
Mistakes are good.

00:21:19.084 --> 00:21:19.434
Michael: Right.

00:21:19.564 --> 00:21:23.764
Shaun: But I do feel frustration
when I see that happening.

00:21:24.034 --> 00:21:27.604
And so that means that the frustration
is born out of this sense that I want

00:21:27.604 --> 00:21:30.964
him to succeed because I want to be
the father of a, of a succeeding child.

00:21:32.269 --> 00:21:32.959
And

00:21:35.209 --> 00:21:40.489
I don't, even that can be broken down into
I want that because I want people to see

00:21:40.489 --> 00:21:46.309
me as a success as a parent, but there's a
healthy aspect of that too, which is that

00:21:46.309 --> 00:21:48.529
I do want to be successful as a parent.

00:21:48.619 --> 00:21:50.359
I want my child to thrive.

00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:54.319
And if that means that he's gonna thrive
by being a professional basketball

00:21:54.319 --> 00:21:59.779
player, and he could be a professional
basketball player, he's gonna be

00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:05.824
probably six seven and enormous, like
that's not, physically he could do it

00:22:06.304 --> 00:22:09.574
or he could be a professional beach
volleyball player, like his mom was.

00:22:09.874 --> 00:22:11.584
Like, that's in our DNA.

00:22:12.244 --> 00:22:14.464
So it's not out of the question.

00:22:14.464 --> 00:22:18.364
If it were out of the question, then
maybe I would think about it differently,

00:22:19.239 --> 00:22:19.469
Michael: Sure.

00:22:19.469 --> 00:22:22.744
Shaun: right, because okay, I mean,
if my son is gonna be five foot six

00:22:23.314 --> 00:22:28.829
and then I don't have to worry about
him being like trying to do that.

00:22:29.524 --> 00:22:34.144
And, and that's, that's vanishingly
rare for people of that stature.

00:22:34.594 --> 00:22:37.624
But, but it's actually within reach.

00:22:37.624 --> 00:22:41.734
And so it's, it's harder, and
it's harder, and that, and that

00:22:41.734 --> 00:22:43.144
especially brings my ego into it.

00:22:43.504 --> 00:22:49.084
How, what kind of father am I,
if I have a son with that kind of

00:22:49.084 --> 00:22:51.484
potential, and I don't cultivate it?

00:22:52.594 --> 00:22:59.749
I, I mean that, my head goes
there, and that is, I think

00:22:59.749 --> 00:23:01.009
that's profoundly unhealthy.

00:23:02.249 --> 00:23:06.619
Michael: Yeah, it's, you know,
you mentioned ego, right?

00:23:06.619 --> 00:23:12.154
Like, he said part of this is
ego, and part of this is, you

00:23:12.154 --> 00:23:13.564
know, there's this unhealthy

00:23:16.024 --> 00:23:20.494
feeling that you have to, you
have to put him in a certain

00:23:20.494 --> 00:23:23.884
direction because he already has
certain traits, necessarily, right?

00:23:23.884 --> 00:23:30.034
But we don't know what our kids'
identities are truly going to be, right?

00:23:30.034 --> 00:23:32.824
Like 10, 20 years from now, who they?

00:23:33.924 --> 00:23:37.054
I don't think we know that when
they're seven or 17, right?

00:23:37.054 --> 00:23:40.344
I think it's gonna be different
when they're 27 or 37, right?

00:23:40.384 --> 00:23:45.304
And I think, but also as dads, we have
this issue of identity also, right?

00:23:45.304 --> 00:23:49.444
Like, we, you talked about ego, right,
and like how we kind of feed ourselves on,

00:23:49.924 --> 00:23:52.114
on that a bit as we're raising our kids.

00:23:52.504 --> 00:23:56.794
There's also this ego around
our identity at work, right?

00:23:56.854 --> 00:23:58.384
We want to crush it at work.

00:23:58.384 --> 00:24:00.214
We want to make as much money as we can.

00:24:00.214 --> 00:24:02.464
We wanna get the promotions or
we wanna be able to sell our

00:24:02.464 --> 00:24:03.844
business, whatever it may be, right?

00:24:04.654 --> 00:24:07.684
How has identity

00:24:09.814 --> 00:24:17.384
worked for you as you've traversed both
the work side of your life, and, 'cause

00:24:17.384 --> 00:24:18.904
you, you know, you're in technology.

00:24:18.904 --> 00:24:22.384
You've you've been
successful in your career.

00:24:22.534 --> 00:24:27.649
How do you, how has identity played
a role in your, both your career and

00:24:27.649 --> 00:24:31.369
now as a father, and kind of what were
the, what's the challenge around that

00:24:31.369 --> 00:24:32.749
for you or what has been the challenge?

00:24:34.099 --> 00:24:35.869
Shaun: Yeah, I, I think that,

00:24:38.179 --> 00:24:41.509
I think that one of the things that
can happen if you're a high achiever

00:24:42.289 --> 00:24:46.549
is that you can conflate output

00:24:49.129 --> 00:24:58.429
with identity, or, and you can, you can
talk about, ah, I am a value because

00:24:58.429 --> 00:25:02.044
I make X amount of money, right?

00:25:02.179 --> 00:25:02.449
Michael: Right.

00:25:02.734 --> 00:25:08.824
Shaun: And that, like, you might
not even be willing to admit that

00:25:09.064 --> 00:25:11.914
out loud, but you feel it inside.

00:25:13.144 --> 00:25:13.984
And,

00:25:17.344 --> 00:25:21.574
I think that, you know, the, the
key to that identity question

00:25:21.694 --> 00:25:24.844
is about reversing that.

00:25:24.964 --> 00:25:28.744
I make X amount of money as a result

00:25:31.279 --> 00:25:34.789
of my character, or as partially
as a result of my character.

00:25:34.789 --> 00:25:39.409
It's also a function of a bunch
of stuff that I don't control.

00:25:39.859 --> 00:25:49.189
I happen to be born in maybe one of the
best times to ever be born in the richest

00:25:49.189 --> 00:25:58.804
country on the planet at where I would
come of age at a, one of the greatest

00:25:58.804 --> 00:26:06.544
expansions in technological capability
that has ever happened in the shortest

00:26:06.544 --> 00:26:13.059
period of time at a, I mean, I, I, I
have been so unbelievably fortunate,

00:26:17.434 --> 00:26:21.799
and I think if you, and, and I,
and then I've, I've actually also

00:26:21.799 --> 00:26:26.029
managed to, you know, I've pissed
away a bunch of opportunity too, but

00:26:26.029 --> 00:26:27.529
I've managed to capture a lot of it.

00:26:27.799 --> 00:26:31.579
And that's, so I was fortunate to be
in a position where there's a lot of

00:26:31.579 --> 00:26:35.119
fertile soil around me, and then I
worked hard to make sure that I, that I

00:26:36.049 --> 00:26:38.989
tended the soil and, and, and all that.

00:26:39.019 --> 00:26:39.859
And, and so,

00:26:42.109 --> 00:26:46.594
but your, your output isn't your,
isn't your worth, isn't your value.

00:26:46.624 --> 00:26:49.504
It's a way of measuring some of
that stuff, but your value is really

00:26:49.504 --> 00:26:50.884
deeply rooted in your character,

00:26:51.879 --> 00:26:52.029
Michael: Yep.

00:26:52.124 --> 00:26:53.884
Shaun: And if you don't get to come home

00:26:56.314 --> 00:27:04.144
and experience that where you don't
get to come home to a family that is

00:27:04.144 --> 00:27:09.094
thrilled to see you and feels safe
and feels provided for, and just, you

00:27:09.094 --> 00:27:10.774
know, your kids run into your arms.

00:27:11.794 --> 00:27:14.104
When you experience that, you
realize, wait a minute, yeah,

00:27:14.104 --> 00:27:15.724
this is what all this is for.

00:27:17.134 --> 00:27:23.734
And so, and then when you, when you
realize that you, if, if you think deeply

00:27:23.734 --> 00:27:26.824
about it, what, what you ought to do is,

00:27:29.104 --> 00:27:31.174
is optimize for that somehow.

00:27:31.214 --> 00:27:31.434
Michael: Yep.

00:27:32.194 --> 00:27:39.274
Shaun: And like, how do I get more,
how do I get more times when I get to

00:27:39.394 --> 00:27:40.834
lay in bed and cuddle with my kids?

00:27:41.824 --> 00:27:42.164
Michael: Right.

00:27:42.574 --> 00:27:48.124
Shaun: And oftentimes for me, yeah, I work
from home, and I have worked from home

00:27:48.124 --> 00:27:58.369
for 20 years, a long time, and so it's
really, really difficult to create that,

00:27:58.969 --> 00:28:02.269
oh, I'm just gonna leave you, leave office
at the office because there is no office.

00:28:02.269 --> 00:28:03.649
The office is upstairs, my home.

00:28:04.549 --> 00:28:05.419
And so

00:28:08.239 --> 00:28:12.739
it's real easy to like, feel like
the bedtime with the kids is, is a

00:28:12.739 --> 00:28:14.269
distraction from what's really important.

00:28:14.449 --> 00:28:17.449
I need to go out there and do my
work and make money and whatever.

00:28:17.989 --> 00:28:19.879
And I do feel that way.

00:28:21.829 --> 00:28:26.059
But then, especially in times like these
where I'm having conversations like this

00:28:26.059 --> 00:28:31.099
with people like you, I, I realize, and,
and I, I try to remain present about

00:28:31.099 --> 00:28:36.229
this, is there are a very finite number
of times when my kids are gonna want me

00:28:36.229 --> 00:28:37.849
to read to them and cuddle them in bed.

00:28:38.089 --> 00:28:41.629
It's gonna go away, not when
they're 18, but when they're

00:28:41.629 --> 00:28:43.999
10 or 12 or 11 or whatever.

00:28:44.509 --> 00:28:46.189
It is, my son's seven.

00:28:47.299 --> 00:28:49.489
That was a blink of an eye ago.

00:28:50.524 --> 00:28:56.374
And he's not gonna want the hugs and the
kisses and the cuddles and the books.

00:28:58.354 --> 00:29:02.464
I don't know, in four years, half
as much time as he's been alive.

00:29:03.864 --> 00:29:03.954
Michael: Right.

00:29:05.404 --> 00:29:10.654
Shaun: And when that's gone, the last
time I read to him in my, in his bed,

00:29:13.414 --> 00:29:15.814
that, there's something that will die.

00:29:16.114 --> 00:29:20.329
That's part of, there's, that's
part of me that's gone forever.

00:29:21.174 --> 00:29:21.394
Michael: Yep.

00:29:22.544 --> 00:29:23.194
Yeah, it's

00:29:25.729 --> 00:29:28.889
you really hit on it for
me the, the last times.

00:29:28.889 --> 00:29:30.409
We always celebrate the first times.

00:29:30.709 --> 00:29:30.979
Shaun: Right.

00:29:31.079 --> 00:29:32.779
Michael: The first time, you know, they

00:29:34.939 --> 00:29:35.689
read on their own.

00:29:35.689 --> 00:29:38.359
The first time that they, they walk.

00:29:38.369 --> 00:29:39.799
The first time that they get a haircut.

00:29:39.799 --> 00:29:41.639
The first time that
whatever it may be, right?

00:29:41.809 --> 00:29:42.229
Shaun: Yeah.

00:29:43.219 --> 00:29:44.589
Michael: We never get a chance
to celebrate the last times,

00:29:44.689 --> 00:29:44.989
Shaun: Yeah.

00:29:45.139 --> 00:29:45.889
Michael: or very rarely.

00:29:45.929 --> 00:29:46.959
I mean, graduations, sure.

00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:47.389
Shaun: Yeah.

00:29:47.509 --> 00:29:48.019
Michael: But you don't,

00:29:48.704 --> 00:29:48.824
Shaun: Yeah.

00:29:48.824 --> 00:29:49.184
You don't get to

00:29:49.189 --> 00:29:49.519
Michael: don't get to

00:29:49.584 --> 00:29:49.924
Shaun: know that it's the last time.

00:29:49.984 --> 00:29:51.004
Michael: you don't get to celebrate
the last time that you read to your

00:29:51.004 --> 00:29:53.494
son and tucked him in bed, right?

00:29:53.494 --> 00:30:00.754
You don't get the, to celebrate the
last time that your daughter asked

00:30:00.754 --> 00:30:02.954
you to have a tea party with her or

00:30:03.019 --> 00:30:03.259
Shaun: Right.

00:30:03.334 --> 00:30:04.294
Michael: Whatever it may be, right?

00:30:04.294 --> 00:30:06.694
Like those things just, they go,

00:30:06.859 --> 00:30:07.099
Shaun: Yeah.

00:30:07.174 --> 00:30:10.474
Michael: right, and I think what, what
I love about what you're saying is that

00:30:10.654 --> 00:30:15.514
your identity, yeah, you can use results
to tell the story of your identity, but

00:30:15.514 --> 00:30:16.744
that's not what your identity is made of.

00:30:17.239 --> 00:30:17.689
Shaun: Yeah.

00:30:17.704 --> 00:30:19.174
Michael: Your identity is made
up of these moments and of

00:30:19.174 --> 00:30:21.064
your character in these moments

00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:21.669
Shaun: That's such a good way to put it.

00:30:22.084 --> 00:30:22.944
Michael: That matter to you, right?

00:30:22.944 --> 00:30:28.054
Like, what makes you happy, what makes
the people you care about happy, what

00:30:28.054 --> 00:30:33.454
makes them feel protected and feel
included, those are the things that

00:30:33.454 --> 00:30:41.314
make up your identity, and I love how
you bring that perspective because it's

00:30:41.314 --> 00:30:47.224
so easy to, for a lot of dads, like
myself, to get wrapped up in our work as

00:30:47.224 --> 00:30:52.304
our identity, right, and how successful
we are in our careers, in our jobs.

00:30:52.374 --> 00:30:52.614
Shaun: Yeah.

00:30:53.854 --> 00:30:57.814
Michael: But at the end of the day, if the
job gives you money and you need money,

00:30:58.084 --> 00:31:04.684
yes, you need to earn a living, but that
doesn't give you time with your kids.

00:31:04.714 --> 00:31:06.274
It doesn't give you time with your spouse.

00:31:06.274 --> 00:31:08.044
It doesn't give you
time with your friends.

00:31:08.044 --> 00:31:14.344
It doesn't give you those moments that
make you feel like who you are, right?

00:31:14.344 --> 00:31:16.414
And that is, at the end of
the day, that's your identity

00:31:16.579 --> 00:31:16.879
Shaun: Yeah.

00:31:16.984 --> 00:31:21.919
Michael: of like how you
take on those situations.

00:31:21.919 --> 00:31:25.099
So, yeah, it is very easy
to get lost in work, right?

00:31:25.099 --> 00:31:27.829
And I think that's the, the challenge
with a lot of dads that I talk to is

00:31:27.829 --> 00:31:32.389
like, okay, well, I've been working,
you know, 40, 60, 80 hours a week,

00:31:32.719 --> 00:31:35.449
all my adult life, now what do I do?

00:31:35.729 --> 00:31:41.269
I've got these kids at home, I would
like to spend more time with them, but

00:31:41.719 --> 00:31:43.069
my whole world is wrapped up in my job.

00:31:43.069 --> 00:31:45.619
That's what I've been doing
for the last 10, 20, 30 years.

00:31:45.619 --> 00:31:46.729
But now what do I,

00:31:46.819 --> 00:31:47.119
Shaun: Yeah.

00:31:47.294 --> 00:31:50.554
Michael: you know, how do I figure
out a way to, to do both, right?

00:31:51.004 --> 00:31:54.364
And I think you hit on the, the really
important part there, which is you only

00:31:54.364 --> 00:31:56.524
get so much time with these people.

00:31:56.524 --> 00:31:57.844
Your job's still gonna be there,

00:31:58.759 --> 00:31:59.059
Shaun: Yep.

00:31:59.164 --> 00:31:59.404
Michael: right?

00:31:59.404 --> 00:32:02.614
So like even if you leave the
office, whether your office is at

00:32:02.614 --> 00:32:06.214
home, or elsewhere, at a certain
time every day, just so you can have

00:32:06.244 --> 00:32:09.424
dinner with your kids, because, you
know, you only have so many dinners

00:32:09.424 --> 00:32:10.384
before they're off to college.

00:32:10.384 --> 00:32:12.334
They're off into their adult
lives and they're doing

00:32:12.334 --> 00:32:14.804
their, their own thing, right?

00:32:15.474 --> 00:32:20.074
That is part of your identity of who you
are because that's what makes you happy.

00:32:20.074 --> 00:32:20.974
That's what makes you whole.

00:32:21.319 --> 00:32:21.579
Shaun: Mm-hmm.

00:32:21.684 --> 00:32:24.484
Michael: I think, and I, I just love
how you put that all into perspective

00:32:24.484 --> 00:32:29.614
of like, yes, you can measure the
results by your paycheck, by your

00:32:29.614 --> 00:32:32.134
earnings, but that's not going to

00:32:34.324 --> 00:32:35.524
identify who you are.

00:32:35.764 --> 00:32:40.234
You're not gonna be known as the
guy with $130,000 salary, right?

00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:42.979
Shaun: Yeah, or if you are, you're not
gonna be happy that that's how you,

00:32:43.204 --> 00:32:45.974
Michael: Right, there goes
Shaun, the $250,000 a year guy.

00:32:46.099 --> 00:32:46.579
Shaun: That's right.

00:32:46.744 --> 00:32:47.044
Michael: No,

00:32:47.089 --> 00:32:47.359
Shaun: Yeah.

00:32:47.374 --> 00:32:50.844
Michael: There goes Shaun, the guy
with a 7-year-old boy, a 4-year-old

00:32:50.854 --> 00:32:55.424
daughter and his, he loves to play.

00:32:55.684 --> 00:32:58.624
He loves to get killed by his wife in
beach volleyball 'cause she would used

00:32:58.624 --> 00:32:59.434
to be a professional player, right?

00:32:59.434 --> 00:33:02.134
Like that is how you
identify yourself, right?

00:33:02.134 --> 00:33:03.154
And that's how people will know you.

00:33:03.374 --> 00:33:03.664
Shaun: Yeah.

00:33:04.454 --> 00:33:04.744
Yeah.

00:33:04.834 --> 00:33:06.454
Michael: But it's so easy
to lose that perspective.

00:33:06.454 --> 00:33:10.159
So I love how you just brought that
all back together of like, this

00:33:10.159 --> 00:33:11.689
is really what's important, right?

00:33:11.749 --> 00:33:15.529
We knock all down, knock down all
the, the stuff that's out there

00:33:15.529 --> 00:33:16.939
of like what we do every day.

00:33:17.089 --> 00:33:18.439
Really, this is what matters.

00:33:18.919 --> 00:33:19.279
Shaun: Yeah.

00:33:19.284 --> 00:33:24.409
And, and, and then the second component of
that, that, that is so important is that

00:33:25.519 --> 00:33:29.379
the number of dinners that you're going
to have is way less than you think it is.

00:33:29.724 --> 00:33:29.944
Michael: Yep.

00:33:30.499 --> 00:33:33.319
Shaun: I, I, I mean, way less.

00:33:33.379 --> 00:33:35.209
The number of, the number of bedtimes.

00:33:35.209 --> 00:33:41.089
I mean, bedtime is a, is, is, is
a big thing around here because,

00:33:41.179 --> 00:33:44.209
by default, I would hate it.

00:33:45.414 --> 00:33:47.689
I, I actually hate all the
mechanics around bedtime.

00:33:47.749 --> 00:33:50.329
I hate trying to get my
kids to brush their teeth.

00:33:50.719 --> 00:33:55.114
I hate trying to help them, like
get them to get dressed for bed.

00:33:56.464 --> 00:34:00.034
If there's a bath or a shower involved,
that's a whole other nightmare.

00:34:01.444 --> 00:34:06.304
I don't, I don't, I wouldn't by default
particularly enjoy reading books to them.

00:34:09.184 --> 00:34:12.664
Although I really do love the
connection time and all of that,

00:34:12.724 --> 00:34:15.664
and I do like telling them stories.

00:34:15.814 --> 00:34:22.684
I, I, I make up stories for them
and I was talking to a buddy of

00:34:22.684 --> 00:34:27.139
mine, and I was like, oh my gosh,
my kids, they're just relentless.

00:34:27.799 --> 00:34:30.949
And, you know, they, they're always
asking for these stories and it's

00:34:30.949 --> 00:34:34.579
so much effort to come up with these
stories, and I'm coming up with these

00:34:34.579 --> 00:34:38.089
stories, right, and, and, you know,
I, it's like a ton of mental effort,

00:34:38.089 --> 00:34:41.869
and I'm just like, I'm actually tapped
out trying to make up these stories.

00:34:41.869 --> 00:34:45.109
My friend goes, dude, you realize
they haven't heard any stories.

00:34:45.649 --> 00:34:49.819
Like, if you made up Cinderella,
they wouldn't know that

00:34:49.819 --> 00:34:50.899
you didn't make that up.

00:34:51.409 --> 00:34:54.049
And I was like, what?

00:34:54.829 --> 00:34:57.709
I was like, it didn't even occur
to me that I could do that.

00:34:57.859 --> 00:35:01.399
And actually I, I, I wouldn't do
that 'cause we don't lie to our kids.

00:35:01.399 --> 00:35:05.884
I wouldn't want to like, at some point,
they will discover that, that that was

00:35:05.884 --> 00:35:09.094
a story that they thought I made up and
that they didn't, I, I never want that

00:35:09.094 --> 00:35:10.924
realization to have ha-, to, to happen.

00:35:10.924 --> 00:35:16.564
And so I would cop to it, but,
but I just, I, I can't believe it

00:35:16.564 --> 00:35:17.794
didn't, I didn't think of that.

00:35:18.064 --> 00:35:23.074
Like, well, that, yes, I could just
tell a different story 'cause what

00:35:23.074 --> 00:35:24.754
they really want is the performance.

00:35:24.754 --> 00:35:27.094
They don't care that it's,
that it's being made up.

00:35:27.604 --> 00:35:33.184
And, but yeah, I, the
fact is, though, that

00:35:36.004 --> 00:35:39.034
it's not forever that I will
be in a, be in a position to

00:35:39.034 --> 00:35:40.384
tell them stories at bedtime.

00:35:41.104 --> 00:35:46.954
And it's not even it, like
the first realization you

00:35:46.954 --> 00:35:49.024
have is, oh, it's not forever.

00:35:49.744 --> 00:35:52.924
But then you have to realize
it's not even when they turn 18.

00:35:53.584 --> 00:35:56.464
They're going to stop wanting
that any minute now, frankly.

00:35:57.379 --> 00:35:57.679
Michael: Yep.

00:35:58.159 --> 00:36:02.119
Shaun: And so literally tonight might
be the last time I get to do that,

00:36:02.809 --> 00:36:09.109
and, and I will miss it even though
I don't particularly like it or I

00:36:09.109 --> 00:36:15.319
wouldn't particularly like it if,
if, and so I, I struggle with that.

00:36:15.949 --> 00:36:18.709
And, you know, bed,
bedtime's a frustrating time.

00:36:18.709 --> 00:36:23.059
It's, I don't get a lot of
compliance and so it's tough.

00:36:23.059 --> 00:36:23.959
I really struggle with it.

00:36:24.539 --> 00:36:32.599
But, man, I mean, if you, one of, one
of the things that, one of the tactics

00:36:32.599 --> 00:36:39.109
that I use is I corden off the time,
and I just decide I'm gonna like it.

00:36:39.229 --> 00:36:40.789
I just decide that I'm gonna enjoy it.

00:36:40.879 --> 00:36:43.939
And it turns out that if
you do that, it works.

00:36:44.824 --> 00:36:45.004
Michael: Yep.

00:36:45.484 --> 00:36:45.904
Absolutely.

00:36:46.234 --> 00:36:51.844
I think, I, I love that forthright
you are, that bedtime isn't

00:36:52.684 --> 00:36:53.794
your favorite activity, right?

00:36:53.794 --> 00:36:56.104
Like you wouldn't just volunteer
normally to be like, yeah,

00:36:56.104 --> 00:36:57.394
I'll, bedtime, that's great.

00:36:57.394 --> 00:37:00.034
Let's, I'll get 'em to brush their
teeth, I'll get 'em to do all that stuff.

00:37:01.054 --> 00:37:07.204
But you're actually, you're building
a structure there that your kids know

00:37:07.404 --> 00:37:11.944
that you are there at night, you know,
every night that you're there to do

00:37:11.944 --> 00:37:17.614
it to read to them now, to be present
with them now, that I think is going to

00:37:17.614 --> 00:37:20.044
pay off as your kids get older, right?

00:37:20.044 --> 00:37:23.164
So when you do have those quiet
moments together as they get older,

00:37:23.164 --> 00:37:26.794
whether that's you guys are sitting
down for, you know, maybe it's just

00:37:26.884 --> 00:37:29.584
one of the kids and you are sitting
down for a meal together, right?

00:37:29.944 --> 00:37:34.504
Or it could be that you guys are, you
and your son are waiting around at the

00:37:34.504 --> 00:37:37.924
gym for basketball practice to start,
and you guys are just hanging out, you

00:37:37.924 --> 00:37:43.084
know, shooting baskets together, that
they will feel that closeness and that

00:37:43.084 --> 00:37:49.039
safety with you that they can come to
you with whatever's on their mind, right?

00:37:49.474 --> 00:37:49.714
Shaun: Yeah.

00:37:49.799 --> 00:37:52.519
Michael: Because right now what
stresses them out is very different

00:37:52.519 --> 00:37:53.899
than what stresses 'em out as teenagers.

00:37:53.899 --> 00:37:57.009
And probably what will stress them out
as 20 somethings, 30 somethings, whatever

00:37:57.009 --> 00:38:01.219
that may be, but you're building that
foundation now that I think pays off

00:38:01.399 --> 00:38:03.709
in the long run because you're there.

00:38:03.779 --> 00:38:04.389
You're present.

00:38:04.469 --> 00:38:07.819
You're active in their
bedtime routines, right?

00:38:07.864 --> 00:38:08.194
Shaun: Yeah.

00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.939
Michael: Which they're gonna recognize
that, oh, dad is there for me in

00:38:11.939 --> 00:38:17.359
those quiet times, right, and I know,
wherever I am, however old I am, that

00:38:17.359 --> 00:38:23.394
I can go back to dad and be like, hey
dad, I got something on my mind, right?

00:38:24.709 --> 00:38:30.514
Shaun: Yeah, I, I think this is one of
those, this is a touchstone that is really

00:38:30.514 --> 00:38:33.604
important, is that you want to be the
kind of parent that your kids can come

00:38:33.604 --> 00:38:34.894
to when they're in crisis no matter what.

00:38:36.184 --> 00:38:39.064
And they need to feel, that's the,
the emotional security that I,

00:38:39.064 --> 00:38:40.414
that, that I was talking about.

00:38:40.909 --> 00:38:41.449
Michael: Right.

00:38:42.614 --> 00:38:44.374
Shaun: And, man, you have to
lay the groundwork for that

00:38:44.494 --> 00:38:46.474
from the very beginning, right?

00:38:46.954 --> 00:38:52.504
And, you know, they, they need to see
you as somebody who's worth coming to.

00:38:53.374 --> 00:38:55.744
And that isn't gonna make 'em
miserable for doing it, right?

00:38:55.744 --> 00:38:57.874
It's gonna, it's gonna
make it better for them.

00:38:58.444 --> 00:39:01.544
And it is so much more important now

00:39:03.954 --> 00:39:10.159
even than it was when we were kids
because they have a device in their pocket

00:39:11.029 --> 00:39:11.379
Michael: Right.

00:39:12.259 --> 00:39:16.909
Shaun: that will instantly connect
them to an unlimited amount of porn, an

00:39:16.909 --> 00:39:21.529
unlimited amount of gambling, an unlimited
amount of games, an unlimited amount

00:39:21.529 --> 00:39:25.309
of things that will short circuit their
brains in ways that can ruin their life.

00:39:27.529 --> 00:39:34.174
If they can't come to you, their
father, to deal with those challenges.

00:39:36.094 --> 00:39:37.144
What are they gonna do?

00:39:37.144 --> 00:39:38.164
Who are they gonna turn to?

00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:39.349
Michael: Right.

00:39:41.029 --> 00:39:41.209
Right.

00:39:41.209 --> 00:39:42.739
You're putting them at a disadvantage.

00:39:43.924 --> 00:39:45.334
Shaun: I, it's even more than that.

00:39:45.334 --> 00:39:48.994
I think, I think you're,
you're setting them up to fail.

00:39:49.884 --> 00:39:50.104
Michael: Yep.

00:39:50.379 --> 00:39:53.194
Shaun: I, I mean, there, it's
not even just, oh yeah, you're a

00:39:53.194 --> 00:39:55.144
couple yards behind the next guy.

00:39:55.144 --> 00:39:58.654
You are not going, I
mean, how, how do you win?

00:39:59.554 --> 00:40:03.814
How do you win against
the online gambling?

00:40:04.879 --> 00:40:05.229
Michael: Right.

00:40:05.734 --> 00:40:09.094
Shaun: It will rewire your
brain such that you need it.

00:40:09.094 --> 00:40:10.264
It's like doing heroin.

00:40:11.014 --> 00:40:12.244
How do you win against heroin?

00:40:13.444 --> 00:40:13.984
You can't.

00:40:14.944 --> 00:40:18.754
If they do heroin, they're kind
of done for, and it's not like

00:40:18.754 --> 00:40:22.354
that will absolutely no question
ruin your life, but it ruins most

00:40:22.354 --> 00:40:23.234
of the people's lives that do it.

00:40:24.239 --> 00:40:24.409
Michael: Right.

00:40:24.919 --> 00:40:26.699
Absolutely, absolutely.

00:40:27.079 --> 00:40:32.719
So on this topic of things that kind
of strengthen your connection or

00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:37.489
relationship with your kids, beyond just
the bedtime routine, is there a small

00:40:37.489 --> 00:40:42.589
repeatable practice that, for you, that
strengthens that father-child connection?

00:40:44.889 --> 00:40:47.074
Shaun: Yeah, I think my favorite
one right now and, and there's

00:40:47.074 --> 00:40:52.144
probably, there, there's, you know,
so I already mentioned one of them,

00:40:52.144 --> 00:40:53.974
which is I, I reframe the act.

00:40:53.989 --> 00:40:59.554
I, I try, I want to try to reframe
the activity in a way that like,

00:40:59.584 --> 00:41:00.589
oh, this is something I enjoy.

00:41:01.744 --> 00:41:03.784
And it turns out you can do that.

00:41:03.789 --> 00:41:07.684
And, and I got that from reading
about people who like endure

00:41:07.894 --> 00:41:11.434
real serious physical hardships.

00:41:11.434 --> 00:41:18.054
I, I, there was a guest on my podcast
named Eric Davis who he, he wrote, the

00:41:18.054 --> 00:41:21.354
way that I got introduced to him is
he wrote a book by the name of Raising

00:41:21.354 --> 00:41:23.124
Men, which is the name of my podcast.

00:41:23.484 --> 00:41:25.524
And so that's how I found out about him.

00:41:25.854 --> 00:41:27.474
And I was just so impressed.

00:41:27.474 --> 00:41:30.504
And he's kind of in my area and he was
a guest on my podcast, but he was a

00:41:30.504 --> 00:41:37.854
Navy Seal and those guys, like, part
of what he writes about in his book

00:41:37.884 --> 00:41:44.274
is a lot of it, a lot of the, you
know that that training that they go

00:41:44.274 --> 00:41:49.834
through is about reframing the activity.

00:41:49.834 --> 00:41:50.554
And he had a friend.

00:41:50.554 --> 00:41:56.344
They were, they were, it was early in the
morning and it was cold, and they were

00:41:56.344 --> 00:42:00.634
about to, they were standing on the shore
and they were about to have to do some

00:42:00.634 --> 00:42:09.724
long swim in the, in the really, really
cold ocean and the anticipation of that

00:42:09.724 --> 00:42:16.714
swim for the guy he was standing next to
was so much, and it was so brutal for him.

00:42:16.714 --> 00:42:18.994
He was thinking about it and he just
couldn't get over it, and he ended

00:42:18.994 --> 00:42:24.874
up ringing the bell, which is the way
that they quit, and he didn't ring the

00:42:24.874 --> 00:42:29.374
bell when the swim got too hard, he
rang the bell when the anticipation

00:42:29.374 --> 00:42:32.794
of the swim got so brutal that he
couldn't bring himself to, to do it.

00:42:34.054 --> 00:42:39.124
And for Eric, he spent his high
school years getting up at five in

00:42:39.124 --> 00:42:40.474
the morning and going out to surf.

00:42:41.089 --> 00:42:44.299
And so to him, sitting on the
beach, watching the waves,

00:42:44.359 --> 00:42:47.389
getting ready to get in the water,
that was positive anticipation.

00:42:47.389 --> 00:42:48.529
He was excited about it.

00:42:48.529 --> 00:42:52.129
Now, it was gonna be a physically
grueling activity, and obviously it wasn't

00:42:52.129 --> 00:42:53.299
the same thing as going out to surf.

00:42:53.299 --> 00:42:54.439
It's not, it's not like it's fun.

00:42:54.439 --> 00:42:59.419
But, but, but to him, he created,
in his mind, was created the

00:42:59.419 --> 00:43:02.179
pathways of, oh, standing on the
beach and looking out the ocean.

00:43:02.179 --> 00:43:03.439
That's a, that's a good thing.

00:43:04.399 --> 00:43:06.139
And you can literally
do that with anything.

00:43:06.619 --> 00:43:09.379
You can literally get yourself
to enjoy just about anything.

00:43:10.669 --> 00:43:12.769
I, you know, you, you can
get yourself to enjoy it.

00:43:12.829 --> 00:43:16.099
Working out is tough and it hurts,
and your body's gonna hurt afterwards.

00:43:16.099 --> 00:43:19.039
But if you get yourself to enjoy it,
then you'll anticipate it and you'll,

00:43:19.309 --> 00:43:23.239
you'll, you'll enjoy the feeling
of, of the muscles hurting, because

00:43:23.239 --> 00:43:25.579
that's what growth feels like, right?

00:43:25.579 --> 00:43:26.989
And it's about that, it's
that way with everything.

00:43:27.769 --> 00:43:28.879
And so that's, that's one thing.

00:43:29.809 --> 00:43:31.374
The other thing is, man, put
that fricking phone away.

00:43:33.074 --> 00:43:33.294
Michael: Yep.

00:43:34.264 --> 00:43:35.494
Shaun: Get the devices.

00:43:35.734 --> 00:43:39.654
So one of, one of my guests, made
such practical suggestions is, is,

00:43:39.684 --> 00:43:41.634
is there's no phones in bedrooms.

00:43:43.254 --> 00:43:47.184
And I, I, I've heard this elsewhere,
but you know, there's a place in

00:43:47.184 --> 00:43:49.644
the house where we put our phones
on our tablets and all that stuff to

00:43:49.644 --> 00:43:51.144
charge, and that's where they stay.

00:43:51.174 --> 00:43:55.974
And when we're doing family time, that's
where they are, and so there's something

00:43:55.974 --> 00:44:01.164
that is pernicious about these devices
that we need to, that it's everything.

00:44:01.164 --> 00:44:03.729
There, there, there, it's, as with
everything, there's a tension.

00:44:03.729 --> 00:44:06.069
There's a, there, there's, there's
an aspect that's a problem.

00:44:06.069 --> 00:44:08.379
There's an aspect that's an
opportunity, and the opportunity is

00:44:08.589 --> 00:44:10.089
you're connected more to everybody.

00:44:10.089 --> 00:44:11.859
You can work from your phone, literally.

00:44:11.859 --> 00:44:14.679
You can be anywhere on the planet
and be connected in good ways,

00:44:15.039 --> 00:44:18.609
but it's also bad, and there's
also problems associated with it.

00:44:18.609 --> 00:44:21.789
You need to learn to manage the problems,
and take advantage of the opportunities,

00:44:21.789 --> 00:44:26.349
and one of the ways to do that is you
gotta define this family time and it's

00:44:26.349 --> 00:44:28.299
inviable and the devices get put up.

00:44:29.304 --> 00:44:31.039
Michael: Oh yeah, for sure.

00:44:31.039 --> 00:44:34.879
Unless you have allowed your kids to use
their phones whenever they want, and then

00:44:34.879 --> 00:44:36.644
like, once you start the habit, it's hard

00:44:36.694 --> 00:44:36.994
Shaun: That's right.

00:44:37.099 --> 00:44:38.329
Michael: to go back from the habit.

00:44:38.584 --> 00:44:38.734
Shaun: Yeah.

00:44:38.749 --> 00:44:41.134
Michael: Right, so one more question
before we get into the speed round.

00:44:41.944 --> 00:44:45.784
When you zoom out, say 15 years from
now, your kids are in college, outta

00:44:45.784 --> 00:44:49.534
the house, wherever they may be, what
do you hope your kids say about who

00:44:49.534 --> 00:44:51.784
you were during these busy years?

00:44:52.784 --> 00:44:54.374
Shaun: Yeah, I hope my kids

00:44:56.894 --> 00:45:01.424
don't recognize how busy it was.

00:45:02.054 --> 00:45:09.614
I hope, I hope they, I hope they
don't know how stressful my life was.

00:45:10.614 --> 00:45:14.894
I hope that I did a good job of
in-, insulating them from that.

00:45:16.734 --> 00:45:19.774
That, that would be great.

00:45:20.184 --> 00:45:22.824
If they look back and go, man,
I didn't even realize my dad

00:45:22.824 --> 00:45:25.824
had a job, that would great.

00:45:27.039 --> 00:45:27.399
Michael: Yeah.

00:45:27.729 --> 00:45:28.749
It says a lot about identity right there,

00:45:28.854 --> 00:45:29.094
Shaun: Yeah.

00:45:29.199 --> 00:45:29.559
Michael: doesn't it?

00:45:29.559 --> 00:45:29.619
Yeah.

00:45:30.164 --> 00:45:33.909
Shaun: Yeah, Yeah and I'll tell
you, this is actually the first

00:45:33.909 --> 00:45:34.989
moment I've had that realization.

00:45:35.919 --> 00:45:36.039
Michael: Yeah.

00:45:37.509 --> 00:45:37.989
That's awesome.

00:45:38.799 --> 00:45:42.189
I love that it's, you could
have gone any direction, right?

00:45:43.719 --> 00:45:49.734
But you cared about is that your kids will
see their childhood as their childhood,

00:45:49.869 --> 00:45:50.169
Shaun: Yeah,

00:45:50.274 --> 00:45:50.604
Michael: not as

00:45:50.619 --> 00:45:51.729
Shaun: yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:45:51.729 --> 00:45:51.969
No.

00:45:51.969 --> 00:45:52.329
Yeah.

00:45:52.404 --> 00:45:56.234
Michael: dad's time to freak out
or dad's time to be at the office,

00:45:56.514 --> 00:45:56.804
Shaun: Yeah.

00:45:57.264 --> 00:45:57.534
Michael: right?

00:45:57.534 --> 00:46:00.294
It's like their childhood is
their childhood, and that's

00:46:00.294 --> 00:46:01.464
what you want them to remember

00:46:01.529 --> 00:46:01.819
Shaun: Yeah.

00:46:01.884 --> 00:46:05.494
Michael: it for because life's not
always gonna be like childhood, right?

00:46:05.674 --> 00:46:05.964
Shaun: Yeah.

00:46:06.714 --> 00:46:09.444
Michael: But there should be,
you hope that you've given them

00:46:09.714 --> 00:46:11.914
something positive to look back on

00:46:12.039 --> 00:46:12.369
Shaun: Yeah.

00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:21.969
Michael: and have built up this strength
of, this well of strength of emotion and

00:46:23.379 --> 00:46:28.929
humanity that, so they can do that for
the next generation, but also do that

00:46:28.929 --> 00:46:31.719
for themselves as they become adults.

00:46:31.899 --> 00:46:32.169
Shaun: Yeah.

00:46:32.339 --> 00:46:34.149
Michael: Right, it's, it's a great answer.

00:46:34.279 --> 00:46:34.719
I love it.

00:46:35.049 --> 00:46:38.709
Shaun: You know, and, and, and I'll tell
you like my parents did that for me.

00:46:39.669 --> 00:46:39.909
Michael: Yeah.

00:46:40.734 --> 00:46:42.504
Shaun: But my dad was a workaholic.

00:46:42.684 --> 00:46:44.784
My dad's career.

00:46:44.844 --> 00:46:49.794
He was a, he was a, a really,
really excellent sportscaster.

00:46:50.664 --> 00:46:54.504
Maybe, maybe, maybe one of the
best sportscasters there ever was.

00:46:54.714 --> 00:46:55.504
He was really good.

00:46:56.504 --> 00:46:57.914
And it was his central life.

00:46:57.919 --> 00:47:02.864
It, it was, he, his whole life was being
on TV and being a sportscaster, and, and

00:47:02.864 --> 00:47:05.684
it gave us a, a really great lifestyle.

00:47:07.934 --> 00:47:12.914
And so he was the opposite of
what we're talking about here.

00:47:12.914 --> 00:47:15.044
He wasn't present in the, in the home.

00:47:15.074 --> 00:47:16.724
He was working or he was sleeping.

00:47:16.724 --> 00:47:19.994
And then when he woke up, he went
to work, and then he got home at

00:47:19.994 --> 00:47:23.924
two o'clock in the morning, and he
slept until after I left for school.

00:47:23.924 --> 00:47:25.574
And then he got up and went to work again.

00:47:25.634 --> 00:47:30.854
And, and he was crushing it, and
he was tremendously successful.

00:47:33.194 --> 00:47:35.954
But he also married my
mom who was unbelievable.

00:47:36.074 --> 00:47:44.624
She created, she created the household
and she, and, and, and, and she, we

00:47:44.624 --> 00:47:49.874
didn't suffer from my dad not being
involved in the way that he was because

00:47:49.874 --> 00:47:52.214
she was so strong and she was so amazing.

00:47:52.219 --> 00:47:55.634
And, and, and so in spite of,

00:47:57.704 --> 00:48:00.734
I mean, I think the rules
have changed somewhat and,

00:48:00.879 --> 00:48:01.099
Michael: Yep.

00:48:03.134 --> 00:48:07.469
Shaun: and, so, but in spite of
the fact that he, my dad wasn't

00:48:07.469 --> 00:48:10.919
the paragon of of, of what, of the
kind of father that I wanna be,

00:48:11.819 --> 00:48:12.149
Michael: Right.

00:48:12.149 --> 00:48:17.609
Shaun: but he still provided that
for me and I really admire that.

00:48:18.539 --> 00:48:19.469
Michael: Yeah, that's a great point.

00:48:20.309 --> 00:48:20.969
Important point.

00:48:21.919 --> 00:48:23.679
Alright, we're gonna go from the
serious to the not so serious now.

00:48:23.679 --> 00:48:24.449
Shaun: Alright, let's do it.

00:48:25.179 --> 00:48:26.169
Michael: Let's do the speed round.

00:48:26.954 --> 00:48:29.864
It's nothing, nothing about
anything, but I'm gonna go for it.

00:48:29.864 --> 00:48:30.794
Five quick questions.

00:48:30.794 --> 00:48:33.434
First one is, what's the first kid
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:48:33.614 --> 00:48:34.754
Shaun: No question, it's Bluey.

00:48:35.594 --> 00:48:35.984
Michael: Bluey?

00:48:36.274 --> 00:48:36.734
Shaun: No question.

00:48:37.244 --> 00:48:37.514
Michael: Yep.

00:48:38.414 --> 00:48:39.824
What was your very first job?

00:48:40.494 --> 00:48:42.229
Shaun: So, there's actually
two answers to that question.

00:48:44.329 --> 00:48:51.404
My very, very first job was I started a
company that was a hay baling company.

00:48:51.434 --> 00:48:55.754
I lived in South Lake, Texas,
which is in, near Dallas.

00:48:56.504 --> 00:49:01.874
And when I was 13 years old,
and I actually, sorry, I must

00:49:01.874 --> 00:49:03.644
have been, my brother was 13.

00:49:03.674 --> 00:49:13.854
I was 16, and I, I borrowed a truck
and, and a trailer, and I would . Hay.

00:49:14.244 --> 00:49:18.229
I would go out to the hay fields and load
up hay on the, on the, on the trailer

00:49:18.229 --> 00:49:20.089
and deliver it for 50 cents a bale.

00:49:20.689 --> 00:49:25.549
And I ended up hiring my brother
and his college roommate and my dad.

00:49:25.939 --> 00:49:26.719
My dad would help.

00:49:26.719 --> 00:49:32.569
My dad, who was like a high paid
sportscaster on TV and stuff like that,

00:49:32.929 --> 00:49:37.879
would literally get out and work all day
on Saturday in the hay fields with me.

00:49:40.249 --> 00:49:46.309
You know, which is, hay, moving hay is the
worst job on the history of the planet.

00:49:46.309 --> 00:49:47.359
Well, it's not the worst job.

00:49:47.389 --> 00:49:51.709
It is one of, it is, it is very, very
tough in the heat of the Texas sun.

00:49:51.709 --> 00:49:52.429
It is itchy.

00:49:52.669 --> 00:49:56.239
You have to wear long sleeves
and, and, you know, thick

00:49:56.239 --> 00:49:58.069
clothes, so you're very, very hot.

00:49:58.369 --> 00:49:59.809
It is horrible.

00:49:59.809 --> 00:50:00.919
It is backbreaking.

00:50:01.279 --> 00:50:04.039
It will teach you that you
do not want a physical job.

00:50:04.699 --> 00:50:09.019
You will do whatever you can to work
in an office when you call, it will

00:50:09.019 --> 00:50:12.049
teach you to go to college because
you wanna make sure that that is

00:50:12.049 --> 00:50:13.549
not what you end up having to do.

00:50:13.579 --> 00:50:17.269
I have a great deal of respect for people
who work in, in, in those because of that.

00:50:17.269 --> 00:50:18.409
So that was my very first job.

00:50:18.409 --> 00:50:22.369
I started this company doing
hay bailing even hired my little

00:50:22.369 --> 00:50:23.959
13-year-old brother to drive the truck.

00:50:25.459 --> 00:50:30.259
And but then my first kind of real
job, I worked at a Dairy Queen.

00:50:31.489 --> 00:50:32.359
Michael: Nice.

00:50:32.639 --> 00:50:34.429
Shaun: And that was also
backbreaking, tough work.

00:50:35.119 --> 00:50:35.659
Michael: I bet.

00:50:36.139 --> 00:50:36.529
I bet.

00:50:37.219 --> 00:50:39.539
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:50:39.539 --> 00:50:41.269
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:50:43.489 --> 00:50:45.919
Shaun: Absolutely a toddler-size T-Rex.

00:50:45.949 --> 00:50:48.739
I don't even really
have to think about it.

00:50:49.099 --> 00:50:51.019
I'm, I'm used to getting bitten.

00:50:51.019 --> 00:50:51.799
That's okay.

00:50:52.279 --> 00:50:54.229
I, I'm pretty tough.

00:50:54.289 --> 00:50:59.389
I got tough skin and at least,
at least the toddler sized T-Rex

00:50:59.719 --> 00:51:04.669
can't reach the counter and get
ketchup all over the the kitchen.

00:51:05.899 --> 00:51:06.439
Michael: Good point.

00:51:07.099 --> 00:51:07.509
Good point.

00:51:07.899 --> 00:51:09.009
What's your go-to karaoke song?

00:51:09.259 --> 00:51:09.769
Shaun: Again.

00:51:09.769 --> 00:51:11.269
This is so easy for me.

00:51:11.269 --> 00:51:12.109
It's Piano Man.

00:51:12.919 --> 00:51:13.369
Michael: Piano Man.

00:51:13.549 --> 00:51:13.939
Shaun: Yep.

00:51:14.149 --> 00:51:15.229
I love that song.

00:51:15.409 --> 00:51:16.189
I'm good at it.

00:51:16.369 --> 00:51:20.359
It is, no, it is absolutely the
first song I sing, and everyone

00:51:20.449 --> 00:51:22.489
is kinda like, wow, he is not bad.

00:51:23.664 --> 00:51:23.954
Michael: Yeah.

00:51:24.199 --> 00:51:24.619
Awesome.

00:51:25.489 --> 00:51:27.289
what's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:51:27.289 --> 00:51:28.879
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:51:29.879 --> 00:51:31.049
Shaun: Probably,

00:51:33.959 --> 00:51:34.679
this is a tough one.

00:51:35.369 --> 00:51:38.279
Of all of these, this is the, this
is the, this is the toughest one,

00:51:38.369 --> 00:51:38.729
Michael: They couldn't all be easy.

00:51:38.889 --> 00:51:39.219
Shaun: Yeah.

00:51:39.219 --> 00:51:40.329
They couldn't all be easy.

00:51:40.869 --> 00:51:41.589
I have this,

00:51:43.749 --> 00:51:49.239
I've, I've recently taken up playing
golf for various complicated reasons, and

00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:50.949
I'm starting, I, I've always hated golf.

00:51:50.979 --> 00:51:55.089
I, I absolutely hate golf, or
at least I did until recently,

00:51:55.089 --> 00:51:57.729
and now I am like starting to
get really passionate about it.

00:51:57.759 --> 00:52:10.419
And I have this, I have this divot
tool that is like a switchblade

00:52:11.229 --> 00:52:13.209
and it's, it's like hardcore.

00:52:13.209 --> 00:52:17.739
It is sort of like this interesting,
just-, juxtaposition between this

00:52:17.739 --> 00:52:21.549
kind of gentleman's game of golf
and this you know, sharks versus the

00:52:21.549 --> 00:52:24.729
jets kind of switchblade divot tool.

00:52:25.089 --> 00:52:28.449
And that's probably the weirdest
thing that I can think of that I've

00:52:28.449 --> 00:52:29.779
carried around in my pockets or bag.

00:52:30.714 --> 00:52:31.254
Michael: Nice.

00:52:31.704 --> 00:52:32.034
Love that.

00:52:32.034 --> 00:52:33.924
Alright, we survived the, the speed round.

00:52:33.924 --> 00:52:34.644
Appreciate that.

00:52:34.824 --> 00:52:37.164
Before we wrap up, I wanna make
sure people know where to find you

00:52:37.164 --> 00:52:38.414
and how to go deeper in your work.

00:52:38.484 --> 00:52:39.024
Shaun: Yeah.

00:52:39.564 --> 00:52:45.564
So, the podcast is called Raising
Men, a, and it's on YouTube, Spotify,

00:52:45.574 --> 00:52:47.034
podcasts, wherever you get your podcast.

00:52:47.034 --> 00:52:49.984
We also have a, have a
website called Raising.Men.

00:52:52.554 --> 00:52:58.854
In fact, one of the reasons that I
kind of left it up to fate to decide

00:52:58.854 --> 00:53:01.464
whether I was even gonna start the
podcast, I decided, you know what?

00:53:02.364 --> 00:53:05.244
I'd been thinking about it for two years
and I finally decided, you know what?

00:53:05.244 --> 00:53:05.844
I'm gonna do it.

00:53:05.874 --> 00:53:07.494
And I came up with the name Raising Men.

00:53:07.524 --> 00:53:08.814
I thought, wow, that's a really good name.

00:53:09.984 --> 00:53:14.394
I'm going, tell you what, I was on a
walk, I was in downtown San Francisco.

00:53:14.394 --> 00:53:15.924
I was on a business trip
and I was on this wise.

00:53:15.924 --> 00:53:19.074
I'm gonna get back to the hotel
and I'm gonna find out if I found

00:53:19.074 --> 00:53:24.324
about out about the .men top level
domain, and if raising.men is

00:53:24.324 --> 00:53:26.349
available, i'll start the podcast.

00:53:26.709 --> 00:53:31.389
And so I went back to my hotel room,
I bought the domain name, and I

00:53:31.389 --> 00:53:32.769
was, I was committed at that point.

00:53:33.899 --> 00:53:34.059
Michael: Love that.

00:53:34.189 --> 00:53:34.679
Shaun: And, so, yeah.

00:53:34.709 --> 00:53:36.879
Yeah, check us out on our website.

00:53:36.879 --> 00:53:40.269
We're on all the socials
RaisingMen_podcast, and

00:53:40.479 --> 00:53:41.769
definitely, you know, DM me.

00:53:41.769 --> 00:53:45.219
I, I love to hear from people
and let me know what you think.

00:53:46.389 --> 00:53:46.749
Michael: Awesome.

00:53:46.779 --> 00:53:49.329
I'm gonna put all those links in the show
notes, so people can find Raising Men.

00:53:49.739 --> 00:53:54.099
Shaun, I really appreciate you joining
me today, talking about the way

00:53:54.099 --> 00:53:55.759
you approach your work, your life.

00:53:55.779 --> 00:53:58.029
You're not speaking
from a pedestal, right?

00:53:58.149 --> 00:53:59.259
You're, you're in it.

00:53:59.319 --> 00:54:05.979
You're asking the hard questions as a dad,
right, of two, two young kids, and you're

00:54:05.979 --> 00:54:07.179
doing it alongside the rest of us, right?

00:54:07.179 --> 00:54:10.149
There's lots of dads out there,
and you're not afraid to talk

00:54:10.149 --> 00:54:11.379
about it, and I appreciate that.

00:54:11.709 --> 00:54:14.949
I'm grateful for the, the honesty
and the clarity that you, you

00:54:14.949 --> 00:54:16.059
brought to this conversation.

00:54:16.059 --> 00:54:17.119
So thank you again for being here.

00:54:17.119 --> 00:54:17.849
I appreciate it.

00:54:18.429 --> 00:54:20.389
And, finally, before you go, if
you're a dad listening to this

00:54:20.409 --> 00:54:23.199
and you find yourself in between,
navigating a season that feels

00:54:23.199 --> 00:54:24.239
different, head to gaptogig.com.

00:54:24.789 --> 00:54:26.289
Subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:54:26.649 --> 00:54:29.859
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:54:30.159 --> 00:54:31.479
and what really matters right now.

00:54:32.079 --> 00:54:34.149
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:54:34.149 --> 00:54:35.109
dad who might need to hear it.

00:54:35.469 --> 00:54:37.059
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:54:37.269 --> 00:54:39.099
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.