Anthony Kuo on Escaping the Success Trap and Building a Career That Actually Fits

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Anthony: The question that
everyone's probably already asking

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themselves is, what do you want?

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Michael: Yeah.

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Anthony: Which is way
easier to ask than answer.

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It's a deceptively difficult question.

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And it's, it's particularly loaded,
too, because we want many things.

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I want, I want to,

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I, I wanna look like a million bucks, and
I also want to eat ice cream, for example.

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Right?

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Michael: Yep.

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Anthony: And it's the same, it's
the same with, with our careers.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host Michael Jacobs, and today
I'm thrilled to be joined by Anthony Kuo.

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At 17 years old, he
performed at Carnegie Hall.

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Most musicians spend their
entire lives chasing that moment.

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But for Anthony, it was
proof he could do it.

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But here's the twist: he
didn't actually want it.

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Anthony grew up with Julliard-trained
parents, elite musical training, and

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all the external markers of talent.

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He locked in scholarships, he checked
the boxes, and then he walked away.

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He went on to graduate from NYU
Stern, climbed the Fortune 500 ladder,

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earned the promotions, built the
resume, and lived what most people

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would call the American Dream.

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And still, something was missing.

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Anthony's the founder of Untamed
Career and a career satisfaction

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coach who helps high achievers
escape what he calls a success trap.

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That space where you look
accomplished on the outside, but

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feel disconnected on the inside.

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He helps people build careers from
the inside out instead of chasing

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approval from the outside in.

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Anthony, I'm really glad you're here.

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Welcome to the show.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Anthony: I'm glad to be here.

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Thanks so much for that great intro.

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Michael: Oh, my pleasure.

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So you've hit some of the biggest
external milestones someone could hit.

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Carnegie Hall.

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Corporate promotions.

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You had prestige credentials.

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So, let me start there.

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When did you first realize that success
and satisfaction were not the same thing?

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Anthony: That is such a great
question and, and it's a really

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important one because it's one of the
foundational things that drives my

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practice, which is treating success
and satisfaction as separate things.

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And you actually had it in the intro where
I had a sense of this, not a vocabulary,

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but a sense of this when I was young where
I was doing something that I was very

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good at, good enough to play at Carnegie
Hall, but it was always, it was always

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someone else's choice that I did it.

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And, you know, to be clear, I,
I do enjoy music and I, and I,

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you know, occasionally do play.

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And it's very different now to do it
on my own terms for my own satisfaction

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and gratification than it was to
do it because my mom wanted me to.

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And there was a moment when I was
preparing for my last concert, which was

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Carnegie Hall, which, you know, kind of
a nice way to like go out with a bang.

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Michael: Sure.

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Anthony: Up until that point, I
didn't really feel like I could stop.

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But the fact that I wanted
to told me a lot, right?

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Michael: Right.

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Anthony: I was getting on that stage
and, you know, it is gratifying to

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like receive applause and praise
for doing something really well.

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And, for me, it just felt really, like,
the reason why I went through it with

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it was because I knew I was gonna get
that recording and send it to colleges

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and that would help my application.

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It would help me get
scholarships, and it all worked.

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And it was very much an extrinsic
motivation as opposed to something that

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I really wanted, like, intrinsically
for myself where I would do it, even

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if there was no other reason to do it.

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Michael: Right, right.

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It's really interesting that at such
a young age, you start to get those

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feelings, that recognition of like,
maybe this isn't where I wanna be,

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how I wanna spend my time exactly.

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: That yes, there is
value in doing this, but for the

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long term, the big picture is
this the right fit for who I am?

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Anthony: Right.

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Michael: Right?

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And so like you, you clearly
talk about the difference between

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success and satisfaction, right?

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: Like, you had success at Carnegie
Hall, but you weren't, I guess you weren't

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: Satisfied, right?

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Like it wasn't giving you that... maybe
it was giving you a thrill, but it

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wasn't giving you that happiness or that
joy that you seek in your day-to-day

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life, and, you know, for a lot of dads
who listen to the show, it's, they

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might be doing well on paper, but they
don't necessarily feel great inside.

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How do you kind of define that gap that
we're experiencing when we think, you

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know, we're doing, we're performing
well, but it's not satisfying to us?

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Anthony: Well, the first thing I
would say really is to cut yourself

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a break because this is something
that we're all conditioned to do.

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Right, from a very early age, I, I
certainly was, right, from very early

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age, this is just the reinforcement
that we get, for the most part, from

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parents, from society, from school, right?

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Like, you get good grades,
here's a sticker, right?

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And then, and then you graduate into
the workforce and you do a good job.

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Here's more money, right?

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So,

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Michael: Right.

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Anthony: we are very positively reinforced
for a very long time to do a good job, and

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what often gets left out of the quest-,
is the question of, did you enjoy it?

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Is this filling you up?

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Which again is, is a different thing.

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One of the things that I started to notice
early on was I could chase the outcome

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and the outcome is great, but do I like
the process of what's happening, right?

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I might like being on stage.

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I might like being in the center
of attention, but do I like what it

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takes to get there on a regular basis?

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My mom was always on me
about practicing, right?

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And, you know, my, my brother still
performs and he's, he's, he's incredible.

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Like, he performs with my mom, they
do two piano recitals, and they're

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still touring around the country.

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This is what my brother
does as his side thing.

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Like, he's also a very
successful professional.

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But it, I can see that when they rehearse,
they are genuinely enjoying it, right?

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And in order for something to be
sustaining, for you to do it for

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a long time, and for you to not
burn out, you have to actually

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enjoy the process of it, too.

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Michael: Right.

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That's a great point that it's going
to pull on you if it's not something

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that is of interest to you, right?

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: And, you know, we talk about
burnout a lot, of, you know, so easy in

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this day and age, we're all trying to
keep up and we're trying to maintain jobs

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and we're trying to build our businesses.

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We're also trying to be good fathers,
and we're trying to be good husbands,

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and we're trying to be all these
things to all these different people,

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but if we're not doing it for the
right reasons, we're not doing it for

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things that recharge our batteries
and make us happy, it's difficult to,

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to not burn out, right?

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It's you, you start expending a
lot more energy trying to keep up

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with the things that you aren't
necessarily, that aren't recharging you.

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Anthony: Yeah.

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Michael: Right?

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Anthony: I really like that you
brought up energy because one of the

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things that is really, really obvious
when you pay attention to it is

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that it is really, really expensive,
energetically speaking, to pretend

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to be something that you're not.

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Michael: Right.

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Absolutely.

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And it's, it's expensive in terms
of the energy that you're using,

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and that is like a, it's expensive
to your mindset then, too,

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: right?

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Because now you're drained,
so you can't do the things

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that you, that you want to do.

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Anthony: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: So, it's pulling away
your, your energy, your, your mind,

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your happiness, and your time.

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Anthony: And to, it's expensive
to everyone around you too, right?

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Like, you know, you talk
about being a good parent, you

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know your, your kids feel it.

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Your spouse feels it.

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Michael: Yep.

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Absolutely.

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So, like a lot of dads build their
careers based on what they're good at,

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right, and not necessarily what they need
themselves to be happy and to thrive.

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Why do we default to, what can
I do instead of what do I need?

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Anthony: It's a really natural instinct.

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I mean, first of all, like,
like I said earlier, it, it's

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what we're reinforced to ask.

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And so if that's something that
you've, you know, you, you, when,

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when you go online to look at jobs,
like that's the first question you're

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asking, I, I wouldn't blame you at all
because that's, that's, again, that's

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what we're all conditioned to ask.

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Michael: Right.

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Anthony: The other half of it is
sometimes or a lot of the time

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when we look at jobs, we're not
doing it because we want to, right?

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Changing jobs.

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Making a career change of any kind
is, is not something you do because

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you're happy where you're at, right?

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Michael: Right.

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Right.

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Anthony: And so often there is a sense of
pressure or, or, or desperation or even

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if you're looking because you've lost your
job and you need to find a job, right?

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And at any given time, it's,
it's always hard to find a job.

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It doesn't matter if the market's good or
bad, it's, it's, it's always a challenge.

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And so then you get stuck in the
scarcity mindset where you have

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a buyer who has options and then
there's little old you, right?

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And, and then you just have this
overwhelming feeling of, well, who

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am I to make any kind of demand?

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Michael: Right.

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That's a good point.

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Anthony: To which, to which I say that you
know, that that may or may not be true.

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You know, I, I can certainly acknowledge
the emotional reality of that.

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But the reality of what you are offering
is the best hours of your day, right?

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Michael: Right.

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Anthony: Our, our careers
occupy prime real estate.

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Best hours of your days.

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Your, your best years of your life.

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The most productive time that you
have available as a human being.

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And so, yes, you could fill it with
a job, any job, and you know, if the

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circumstances call for, then you're gonna
have to do what you're gonna have to do.

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And if you're in a place where you can
afford to think more strategically,

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more expansively about this, then I
believe that we all deserve to get

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something in exchange, right, to,
to get a return from our putting

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that prime real estate on the line.

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Michael: Right, right.

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When you can afford to do that, right,
like you can't, you know, especially in

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today's day and age and with the economy
that, that, it seems to be the way

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that it is right now, there not, might
not be as many opportunities that are

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ideally fit for you in the moment, right?

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And so when you can afford to select
the right job that brings you that joy,

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but we're just kind of chasing that.

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What's the next best thing for me, right?

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It's like we're chasing some sort of
validation of not just the right job,

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but, that I'm gonna be good at it, and
somebody's going to, as you said earlier,

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like you get a reward, like in school,
they'll give you a sticker when you,

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when you did something well, right,
and then as you grow older, maybe it's

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a promotion, maybe it's a, a corporate
award, maybe it's, you know, more money.

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How does some of that stuff
kind of, from work, spill over

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into how we show up at home?

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Anthony: Hmm.

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What an interesting question.

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And I mean, I think it's an important
perspective of the ecosystem

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that our careers exist in, right?

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Because it, it's really easy to let
it sort of like exist in a silo of

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like, work is work and life is life,
but there is an interplay, right?

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You know, like we were alluding to
earlier, when you're not getting

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your cup filled at work, then you're
gonna come home already drained

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which, you know, is, is hard on not
only you, but the people around you.

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And then maybe you don't get to
be the dad that you wanna be.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Anthony: And on the other side, if you go
to work, you might, like, if it fills your

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cup, you might still be tired when you
get home because you've exerted yourself.

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But it's a different feeling of
feeling well used as opposed to

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absolutely exhausted and drained
which puts you in a different

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place of how you show up at home.

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Michael: So there's like this
element of satisfaction, right?

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Is that what you're

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Anthony: Yeah.

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Michael: and if you get that satisfaction
at work, you'll have more energy at home?

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Anthony: Yeah.

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Michael: Otherwise, work drains, you and
you don't have that same energy at home.

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Am I pulling that properly
from what you're saying?

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Anthony: Yeah, yeah.

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That, that's certainly part of it.

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And then also, you know, the things
that you choose to engage with at home.

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Like, the people I work with often
find that the work that we do spills

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to other areas of their life where, you
know, once we start identifying this

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is the kind of work that turns you on.

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This is the kind of
work that turns you off.

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Then they find that it starts to spill
into, you know, who they spend time

00:13:56.752 --> 00:14:00.922
with and what tasks around the house
that they do, or they, it makes sense

00:14:00.922 --> 00:14:06.532
why, oh, I really like setting the
laundry in motion, and that's actually

00:14:06.532 --> 00:14:07.972
a parallel to what I do at work.

00:14:07.972 --> 00:14:14.632
So I'm gonna like, you know, divvy up the,
the like chores share to favor the kind

00:14:14.632 --> 00:14:16.402
of stuff that I'm really efficient at.

00:14:16.402 --> 00:14:20.932
Not only because I, I, I'm good at
it, but also because some part of

00:14:20.932 --> 00:14:22.192
my personality is getting activated.

00:14:23.632 --> 00:14:28.222
Michael: Yeah, that's a great point,
too, that it's not a one way street here

00:14:28.222 --> 00:14:29.672
of energy's only determined at work,

00:14:29.872 --> 00:14:30.292
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:14:30.472 --> 00:14:30.742
Michael: right?

00:14:30.742 --> 00:14:35.482
It, also, at home and outside
of work, where you get energy

00:14:35.512 --> 00:14:40.462
and energy is drained from you,
from what you do outside of work.

00:14:40.942 --> 00:14:47.692
So it's finding that right interplay
between the two that will feed the,

00:14:48.052 --> 00:14:52.702
your satisfaction to the point where
you can maintain a level of energy that

00:14:52.782 --> 00:14:53.032
Anthony: Yeah,

00:14:53.192 --> 00:14:56.252
Michael: is sufficient for your,
your happiness, your satisfaction.

00:14:56.362 --> 00:15:02.692
Anthony: Yeah, satisfaction is ultimately
a, a, a, maintaining a balance of energy.

00:15:03.742 --> 00:15:08.752
I, I don't pretend that developing career
satisfaction or even life satisfaction

00:15:08.752 --> 00:15:11.962
is all about like being on a high all
the time 'cause that's just unrealistic

00:15:11.992 --> 00:15:14.422
and a little bit silly to chase.

00:15:15.712 --> 00:15:21.172
It's really about being aware of and
consciously maneuvering what adds

00:15:21.172 --> 00:15:23.212
energy, what depletes energy, right?

00:15:23.212 --> 00:15:26.062
So, certain things are
unavoidable that drain energy.

00:15:26.242 --> 00:15:30.172
For me, and I know for a lot of
people, doing your taxes is not a

00:15:30.322 --> 00:15:34.222
soul affirming activity, and yet
it's something we have to do, right?

00:15:35.182 --> 00:15:38.782
And that's something that you can do
where you set it up, where you approach

00:15:38.782 --> 00:15:45.037
it with a sufficient buffer of energy to
take care of business and also maybe on

00:15:45.037 --> 00:15:48.877
the other side, have something to line up
for yourself to replenish your batteries.

00:15:50.002 --> 00:15:50.362
Michael: Right.

00:15:51.202 --> 00:15:51.622
Absolutely.

00:15:51.622 --> 00:15:52.222
So.

00:15:52.642 --> 00:15:54.532
Let's talk about you specifically.

00:15:54.622 --> 00:15:58.012
Eight years into your corporate
life, you were climbing fast.

00:15:58.067 --> 00:16:02.722
What finally made you realize that
that wasn't it for you, that wasn't

00:16:02.722 --> 00:16:03.832
the right life that you wanted?

00:16:04.042 --> 00:16:07.522
Anthony: Yeah, so it was a, it was a
slow burn for the entire eight years.

00:16:08.092 --> 00:16:13.537
I, I knew from day one that I
would eventually wanna find my

00:16:13.537 --> 00:16:17.797
way out because ultimately I, like
I, I knew this pretty early on.

00:16:17.797 --> 00:16:20.467
I kind of needed to work for myself.

00:16:20.707 --> 00:16:22.807
I've always had an entrepreneurial streak.

00:16:22.837 --> 00:16:26.467
I've always been running some
side hustle here and there.

00:16:27.937 --> 00:16:33.037
And I just knew that about myself,
but I didn't have an alternative.

00:16:33.397 --> 00:16:36.892
Like I didn't really know
what I would want to do.

00:16:36.892 --> 00:16:41.302
And also all of my side hustles were only
interesting enough to be side hustles.

00:16:41.602 --> 00:16:43.852
I didn't wanna make
them full-time hustles.

00:16:45.442 --> 00:16:51.732
And so, you know, similar to what I
said about my upbringing with, with

00:16:51.732 --> 00:16:56.242
music, like, there was a lot of value
in being in the corporate world.

00:16:56.242 --> 00:16:57.592
I learned a lot about business.

00:16:57.592 --> 00:17:00.442
I learned a lot about navigating
different personalities.

00:17:00.442 --> 00:17:03.832
So, so, I just kind of like incubated
there and, and just parked myself there

00:17:03.832 --> 00:17:07.822
to learn and grow in all the ways that
I could and, and also fill my bank

00:17:07.822 --> 00:17:12.442
account because, you know, corporate
salary is, is not disappointing.

00:17:14.422 --> 00:17:16.372
Even, even though other
parts of it might've been,

00:17:18.592 --> 00:17:19.192
and

00:17:22.162 --> 00:17:28.402
what I noticed was that I kind of had an
expiration date at any given role where

00:17:30.832 --> 00:17:35.992
you know, I, I would, I would
climb the steep learning curve, be

00:17:35.992 --> 00:17:40.012
satisfied through that, intellectually
stimulated, you know, proving myself.

00:17:40.012 --> 00:17:40.822
That was exciting.

00:17:41.467 --> 00:17:45.517
And then I would get bored, and then
I would start to get like, you know,

00:17:46.087 --> 00:17:50.827
a little bit sloppy or just, just
start wondering about where can I go

00:17:50.827 --> 00:17:52.417
next, and then I'd make a transition.

00:17:52.657 --> 00:17:56.827
Either I'd get promoted somehow or move
to a different role, either internally

00:17:56.827 --> 00:17:58.087
or move to a different company.

00:17:58.897 --> 00:18:05.677
And that happened about every 12
to 18 months until I started to hit

00:18:06.067 --> 00:18:12.142
diminishing returns where I would execute
a change, and the timeline got shorter.

00:18:12.142 --> 00:18:18.862
It was like 12 to 15 months, and then 12
to 12 months, and then nine to 12 months.

00:18:21.472 --> 00:18:25.342
But what actually kicked me out of the

00:18:27.532 --> 00:18:30.142
of the corporate world,
like I, I did need a push.

00:18:31.642 --> 00:18:35.002
And, for better or worse,
I was good at my job.

00:18:35.002 --> 00:18:37.042
So, they, they were never gonna fire me.

00:18:39.772 --> 00:18:46.177
So, you know, there were some days where I
just wished they would and they would, you

00:18:46.177 --> 00:18:51.307
know, put me outta my misery and make the
decision, make the hard decision for me.

00:18:52.357 --> 00:18:54.937
But ultimately I'm glad that
they didn't because then it

00:18:54.937 --> 00:18:56.557
could be again, on my terms.

00:18:57.997 --> 00:19:01.267
But what actually happened was I
got into a minor fender bender while

00:19:01.267 --> 00:19:02.497
I was commuting home from work.

00:19:04.297 --> 00:19:09.517
Totally minor, no injuries, barely
any paint chipped off of anything.

00:19:11.047 --> 00:19:11.827
And

00:19:14.137 --> 00:19:19.717
to make a very long and boring story
short, the police got involved and

00:19:20.437 --> 00:19:23.167
they made things very, very difficult.

00:19:24.427 --> 00:19:27.337
And in a, in a way that
felt very, very unfair.

00:19:28.987 --> 00:19:36.682
And the car and the whole
situation ended up being an emblem

00:19:36.712 --> 00:19:39.562
of what was wrong in my life.

00:19:39.712 --> 00:19:42.742
It became more of a symbol than
anything 'cause I was commuting,

00:19:43.012 --> 00:19:44.512
reverse commuting back and forth.

00:19:44.512 --> 00:19:49.732
I, I lived in New York City and I was
driving to suburban New Jersey for work.

00:19:51.442 --> 00:19:54.322
And the car just sort of
became this lightning rod of,

00:19:54.322 --> 00:19:56.332
like, this is not working.

00:19:58.282 --> 00:20:04.642
And finally it made me admit to myself
that this, this is not sustainable.

00:20:04.642 --> 00:20:05.992
I have to get out of this.

00:20:07.822 --> 00:20:12.202
And so it was as much an emotional
decision as it was a logical one.

00:20:13.012 --> 00:20:19.162
And by that time, I had started to
coalesce around the early version

00:20:19.162 --> 00:20:23.272
of what my business is today,
enough so that I could take a leap.

00:20:25.472 --> 00:20:30.442
Michael: What I really like about what
you said was that even during that time

00:20:30.537 --> 00:20:33.432
where you weren't satisfied with your
job, you were still learning from it.

00:20:33.517 --> 00:20:33.750
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:20:34.072 --> 00:20:36.292
Michael: You were still
taking value from it.

00:20:36.292 --> 00:20:40.632
So, like even if you were stuck
in that position, right, you

00:20:41.652 --> 00:20:44.762
still were able to mine it for
things that would help you later.

00:20:44.982 --> 00:20:49.882
And it wasn't just, like, learning
the corporate stuff, you know, it was

00:20:49.912 --> 00:20:53.062
managing personalities, but it was
also learning like what you didn't like

00:20:53.147 --> 00:20:53.567
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:20:53.602 --> 00:20:54.742
Michael: And what you did like about it.

00:20:54.742 --> 00:20:57.192
So you could figure out
what works for you, right?

00:20:57.192 --> 00:21:01.702
You didn't just clock in, clock out and
not pay attention to what was going on,

00:21:01.702 --> 00:21:07.237
you paid attention to what was working for
you and what wasn't, which I believe has

00:21:07.567 --> 00:21:12.037
got to have made that transition easier
for you as you went from the corporate

00:21:12.037 --> 00:21:13.637
world to starting your own business.

00:21:13.637 --> 00:21:16.357
You knew like, okay, this
is what I want to do.

00:21:16.357 --> 00:21:17.377
This is what I wanna focus on.

00:21:17.377 --> 00:21:18.997
These are the things I
didn't like about this job.

00:21:19.237 --> 00:21:20.647
I don't wanna repeat those.

00:21:20.737 --> 00:21:22.237
I don't wanna get into
those patterns again.

00:21:23.287 --> 00:21:28.547
So, I imagine that, you know, your
preparation, well, maybe not always

00:21:28.807 --> 00:21:34.042
conscious, conscious of that preparation
that subconsciously you're setting

00:21:34.042 --> 00:21:38.257
yourself up, to take that next step,
right, because you were paying attention

00:21:38.257 --> 00:21:41.467
to some of those things that we kind
of take for granted every day, like

00:21:41.467 --> 00:21:45.197
our interactions with others and
what we find interesting, what we

00:21:45.217 --> 00:21:47.527
don't in cataloging those, right?

00:21:47.527 --> 00:21:51.537
You said that you were like, yeah,
I was learning from these jobs even

00:21:51.537 --> 00:21:55.057
though I was, you know, I would go
through these phases or these cycles,

00:21:55.327 --> 00:21:58.627
and I learned different things that I
imagine a lot of that carried over to

00:21:58.627 --> 00:22:00.607
you as you started your own business.

00:22:00.737 --> 00:22:01.057
Anthony: A hundred percent.

00:22:01.237 --> 00:22:05.747
Michael: I also find it fascinating
that this car, minor fender bender, it

00:22:05.747 --> 00:22:10.477
is unbelievable how many people have
had a realization having some sort of

00:22:11.547 --> 00:22:12.797
accident, regardless of seriousness.

00:22:12.817 --> 00:22:12.907
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:22:13.957 --> 00:22:14.137
Michael: Right?

00:22:14.137 --> 00:22:19.327
It's just like some disruptor to
their normal day to day activity

00:22:19.327 --> 00:22:21.747
is like the thing that was like,
that was the wake up call, right?

00:22:21.922 --> 00:22:22.192
Anthony: Yeah.

00:22:22.237 --> 00:22:25.037
Michael: You don't expect it in the
moment, but then it hits, and it's

00:22:25.037 --> 00:22:27.187
like, okay, I've got some new clarity.

00:22:28.027 --> 00:22:28.207
It's, right?

00:22:28.972 --> 00:22:32.767
Anthony: Well, the, the funny thing is
that it, it was a wake up call, but I

00:22:32.767 --> 00:22:36.937
actually consider it more of like the
third snooze on your alarm clock, because

00:22:36.937 --> 00:22:43.417
I had been, I had been clocking the, the
signals for at least a year up to that

00:22:43.417 --> 00:22:49.507
point where I, I, I knew that I was like,
my time left in that world was short, but

00:22:49.507 --> 00:22:53.797
I was too scared to do something about it,
and so I just sort of ignored the signals

00:22:53.797 --> 00:22:56.917
and just like, well, let me just, let me
just try this other thing that I, like,

00:22:57.007 --> 00:23:01.777
deep down, I knew it wasn't gonna work
or it wasn't gonna work enough, and so

00:23:01.777 --> 00:23:06.247
finally the universe had to be like, all
right, here's, here's like a real shove.

00:23:08.137 --> 00:23:10.417
And then finally, I, I
listened to that one.

00:23:11.347 --> 00:23:17.437
But I, I, I wanna circle back to what
you were saying earlier because this

00:23:17.437 --> 00:23:21.427
is something I tell everyone I work
with, that career satisfaction is

00:23:21.427 --> 00:23:24.007
actually not a single moment, right?

00:23:24.007 --> 00:23:28.267
It's, it's not that you get a new job
in, in some new career or whatever and

00:23:28.897 --> 00:23:31.147
job done, mission accomplished, right?

00:23:31.177 --> 00:23:34.747
Like obviously it is an
important milestone and career

00:23:34.747 --> 00:23:36.577
satisfaction is an active stance.

00:23:36.607 --> 00:23:40.057
It is a choice you make over
and over and over again.

00:23:40.267 --> 00:23:43.747
It's, it's situational awareness
and just as you're saying, like

00:23:43.747 --> 00:23:50.797
being aware and open to like a high
bandwidth stream of information of,

00:23:50.947 --> 00:23:51.127
Michael: Yep.

00:23:51.247 --> 00:23:52.327
Anthony: Am I enjoying this?

00:23:52.327 --> 00:23:53.887
What specifically am I enjoying?

00:23:53.887 --> 00:23:55.867
Am I not enjoying this?

00:23:55.927 --> 00:23:59.867
What specifically is
not feeding me, right?

00:24:00.077 --> 00:24:04.607
And then using that information to inform
your next step, and then you go to the

00:24:04.607 --> 00:24:07.007
next step and you do it all again, right?

00:24:07.127 --> 00:24:08.687
Now that I'm here, what's better?

00:24:08.747 --> 00:24:09.437
What's worse?

00:24:09.467 --> 00:24:10.157
What's the same?

00:24:10.157 --> 00:24:11.507
What do I want to change next?

00:24:11.837 --> 00:24:13.697
And you continue that process.

00:24:14.317 --> 00:24:14.667
Michael: Right.

00:24:15.052 --> 00:24:20.212
And that you're describing
is always evolving, right?

00:24:20.302 --> 00:24:23.077
Like, what brings you career
satisfaction today is probably

00:24:23.077 --> 00:24:26.557
different than what brought you
career satisfaction when you were 22.

00:24:26.722 --> 00:24:27.142
Anthony: Yes.

00:24:27.237 --> 00:24:27.267
Michael: Right?

00:24:27.267 --> 00:24:27.977
Fresh out of college.

00:24:28.207 --> 00:24:29.557
And it's probably different
than what it's going to look

00:24:29.697 --> 00:24:30.957
like five, 10 years from now,

00:24:31.057 --> 00:24:31.477
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:24:31.627 --> 00:24:31.807
Michael: Right?

00:24:31.807 --> 00:24:35.317
You have to constantly be paying
attention to those signals that you're

00:24:35.317 --> 00:24:38.677
getting, those experiences that you
have to figure out what is bringing

00:24:38.677 --> 00:24:42.097
you satisfaction today and what's gonna
bring you satisfaction next, right?

00:24:42.097 --> 00:24:47.317
Like, Mo, most people, I imagine, doing
the same thing over and over for 40 years

00:24:48.427 --> 00:24:49.927
is probably not gonna be very satisfying.

00:24:50.182 --> 00:24:50.482
Anthony: Right.

00:24:50.707 --> 00:24:54.247
Michael: At some point, you're gonna want
to, their interests are going to shift

00:24:54.487 --> 00:24:58.807
based on the experiences that they have
and what they're, they've been exposed

00:24:58.807 --> 00:25:03.247
to and what they, how their knowledge
evolves, right, so I'm wondering if,

00:25:03.247 --> 00:25:07.982
like, is, is it accurate to say that it is
always evolving, your career satisfaction?

00:25:08.032 --> 00:25:08.632
Anthony: A hundred percent.

00:25:08.632 --> 00:25:10.162
It, it totally is.

00:25:10.492 --> 00:25:14.602
And, and this is why we need
to continuously pay attention

00:25:14.602 --> 00:25:16.372
because we grow, right?

00:25:17.017 --> 00:25:19.057
We, we grow, we change, we evolve.

00:25:19.117 --> 00:25:20.257
Life changes.

00:25:20.257 --> 00:25:21.367
Our priorities shift.

00:25:21.727 --> 00:25:24.817
Or even if we're not growing,
the situation around you might

00:25:24.817 --> 00:25:26.677
be growing or changing, right?

00:25:26.677 --> 00:25:32.047
Like, I've had multiple situations
where, you know, in, in the first

00:25:32.047 --> 00:25:37.087
category, I had a client actually
come back where, you know, we got

00:25:37.087 --> 00:25:38.602
them to where they wanted to be.

00:25:39.577 --> 00:25:43.957
I hear back from them a couple years later
that, hey, things are going amazing, but

00:25:43.957 --> 00:25:48.547
actually I'm a little bored now because
I feel like I've tapped out on, like,

00:25:48.547 --> 00:25:52.737
what I can get out of this role, and
now I wanna explore what's next, right,

00:25:52.737 --> 00:25:54.307
which is a wonderful problem to have.

00:25:55.027 --> 00:26:00.547
I've also had it on the other side where
someone engineers a move, and it's a great

00:26:00.547 --> 00:26:05.557
environment for them, and, and everything
is wonderful, and then something happens

00:26:05.557 --> 00:26:06.877
that's out of their control, right?

00:26:06.877 --> 00:26:11.737
Like, the company gets bought out by new
management or their boss leaves and is

00:26:11.737 --> 00:26:15.847
replaced with somebody who's totally not
compatible or, or, or something like that.

00:26:16.267 --> 00:26:17.737
And what do you do, right?

00:26:19.567 --> 00:26:27.937
Now, I mean, I, I, you know, try to equip
everyone with a, a like skillset that they

00:26:27.937 --> 00:26:31.237
can navigate these situations themselves.

00:26:31.747 --> 00:26:36.757
And also it's, it is a ever
continuously evolving loop.

00:26:37.972 --> 00:26:38.782
Michael: Right, right.

00:26:38.782 --> 00:26:41.042
And you don't know where,
what is going to when, right?

00:26:41.042 --> 00:26:41.462
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:26:42.252 --> 00:26:43.692
Michael: You know, people's
probably at the center of that.

00:26:43.872 --> 00:26:44.162
Anthony: Yeah.

00:26:44.936 --> 00:26:47.812
Michael: If you, you get new leadership,
you get a new boss, whatever it

00:26:47.812 --> 00:26:52.192
may be like, or new ownership, you
know, maybe the culture changes.

00:26:52.192 --> 00:26:54.712
Maybe the expectations change.

00:26:54.772 --> 00:27:00.002
And now it's not the same job that you
originally were getting energy from.

00:27:00.097 --> 00:27:00.397
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:27:00.452 --> 00:27:01.942
Michael: Now, it is a job
that is draining your energy.

00:27:02.092 --> 00:27:02.982
Or maybe it's vice versa.

00:27:03.097 --> 00:27:07.747
Anthony: I also, speaking of, you know,
this, this is a, a show that, you know,

00:27:07.747 --> 00:27:10.627
we, you have a lot of dads listening here.

00:27:12.007 --> 00:27:16.297
I get a lot of people for whom
having a kid changes things.

00:27:17.497 --> 00:27:17.607
Michael: I bet.

00:27:17.697 --> 00:27:17.727
Yep.

00:27:17.827 --> 00:27:19.852
Anthony: It absolutely
shifts your priorities.

00:27:19.852 --> 00:27:23.452
The things that were tolerable before
all of a sudden seem like, what

00:27:23.452 --> 00:27:24.592
is, what am I wasting my time for?

00:27:24.592 --> 00:27:27.712
I would so much rather be
at home with my kid, right?

00:27:28.942 --> 00:27:31.642
Or I used to stress so much
about this and I realize that

00:27:31.642 --> 00:27:33.022
actually it's not that important.

00:27:33.847 --> 00:27:34.057
Michael: Yeah.

00:27:35.737 --> 00:27:40.117
On the flip side of that, do you get
dads then who are, feel like they have

00:27:40.117 --> 00:27:44.977
to stay doing what they're doing because
they feel they're, they're responsible

00:27:44.977 --> 00:27:52.637
for bringing stability to the home
financially or otherwise, and, like, how

00:27:52.637 --> 00:27:59.557
do they, how do you navigate that process
where it's like, yeah, this might not be

00:27:59.647 --> 00:28:04.457
what I wanna be doing, but I'm afraid to
move because I need to support my family

00:28:04.507 --> 00:28:04.597
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:28:05.137 --> 00:28:06.217
Michael: Now that I have kids.

00:28:06.217 --> 00:28:08.457
Like, how do you navigate that process?

00:28:08.527 --> 00:28:10.117
Anthony: Yeah, this, this totally happens.

00:28:10.597 --> 00:28:14.257
And again, this, this is a very
reasonable thing to be thinking

00:28:14.257 --> 00:28:15.607
about and worrying about.

00:28:17.497 --> 00:28:24.307
So the first really important
thing is to get an accurate

00:28:24.407 --> 00:28:26.747
situational assessment, right?

00:28:27.667 --> 00:28:33.307
I actually partner with some financial
advisors to help people get like a, an

00:28:33.307 --> 00:28:37.627
accurate picture of what's going on on the
financial front to really understand like

00:28:37.627 --> 00:28:39.637
how much wiggle room do you have, right?

00:28:39.637 --> 00:28:43.787
Are you one missed paycheck away
from disaster, or do you have a

00:28:43.787 --> 00:28:45.937
buffer, right, first and foremost?

00:28:48.217 --> 00:28:53.062
Obviously, you know how many earners
are there in, in the family is,

00:28:53.062 --> 00:28:54.922
is a contributing factor, right?

00:28:54.922 --> 00:29:01.672
So just getting a, a, an awareness of
both how things are financially speaking

00:29:01.672 --> 00:29:05.122
and also what's going on with work.

00:29:05.122 --> 00:29:08.692
Is it tolerable and it's just
like a little bit annoying?

00:29:08.962 --> 00:29:12.682
Is it awful and every single
moment you spend there is just

00:29:12.682 --> 00:29:14.332
like tearing into your soul?

00:29:14.362 --> 00:29:17.092
Like, there, there are different
degrees of what's going on and how

00:29:17.092 --> 00:29:18.822
long you can tolerate the situation.

00:29:20.782 --> 00:29:26.752
And then, when we get to the, what do I
do next stage, where like after, after

00:29:26.752 --> 00:29:31.312
we've identified like what's important
to you, how do you define success and

00:29:31.312 --> 00:29:36.952
satisfaction according to you and not
anyone else, we then go to, okay, well

00:29:36.952 --> 00:29:38.272
where could you possibly meet that?

00:29:39.232 --> 00:29:43.672
And that can be a very exciting, but also
very intimidating, stage where it's like,

00:29:43.912 --> 00:29:45.802
I want to do this, but can I really?

00:29:46.732 --> 00:29:47.812
Can I afford to do that?

00:29:47.812 --> 00:29:49.192
Is that a risk I'm willing to take?

00:29:49.432 --> 00:29:51.082
So on and so forth, right?

00:29:51.187 --> 00:29:51.397
Michael: Yeah.

00:29:52.852 --> 00:29:56.842
Anthony: And what I find is very, very
helpful is to actually map all of the

00:29:56.842 --> 00:30:00.112
ideas you come up with against two axes.

00:30:00.772 --> 00:30:06.172
One is all about, you know, it's, I
call it the satisfaction axis, right?

00:30:06.172 --> 00:30:07.882
Like, how interesting is this to me?

00:30:08.242 --> 00:30:12.622
Just if I could think only about
this and if money and finances

00:30:12.622 --> 00:30:17.347
and stability and whatever were no
issue, how interested am I in this?

00:30:17.587 --> 00:30:19.327
Would I do it for free, right?

00:30:20.587 --> 00:30:23.287
But, for better or worse, we
don't live in that vacuum.

00:30:24.142 --> 00:30:24.492
Michael: Right.

00:30:24.577 --> 00:30:26.917
Anthony: So the other axis
is about practicality.

00:30:27.727 --> 00:30:30.397
How well does this fit into my life today?

00:30:31.237 --> 00:30:35.107
Or how big an adjustment would I have
to make to make this work, right?

00:30:35.107 --> 00:30:36.337
Would I need to go back to school?

00:30:36.337 --> 00:30:37.867
Would I need to move, et cetera?

00:30:38.782 --> 00:30:39.132
Michael: Right.

00:30:40.507 --> 00:30:43.027
Anthony: And so you can actually
imagine a, a two by two grid of

00:30:43.027 --> 00:30:47.257
this where you have, you know, high
interest and high accessibility,

00:30:48.307 --> 00:30:49.867
sort of a no-brainer, right?

00:30:49.867 --> 00:30:50.217
Michael: Right.

00:30:50.737 --> 00:30:53.497
Anthony: And then the other no-brainer
is like if you're not interested

00:30:53.737 --> 00:30:57.622
and it's really hard to get to,
then don't worry about it, right?

00:30:57.742 --> 00:30:59.722
And then there's the other gradient.

00:31:00.412 --> 00:31:04.552
This is really interesting, but it's hard
to get to or would require a significant

00:31:04.552 --> 00:31:06.262
investment or disruption in my life.

00:31:06.622 --> 00:31:09.712
And the other, that's more of like a
stepping stone of like, it's not as

00:31:09.712 --> 00:31:12.142
interesting, but it provides stability.

00:31:12.922 --> 00:31:13.192
Michael: Right.

00:31:13.192 --> 00:31:17.902
Anthony: And when you pair this framework
with an accurate situational assessment,

00:31:18.262 --> 00:31:21.262
you can choose your right next step
that's appropriate for where you're at.

00:31:23.242 --> 00:31:26.472
Michael: That's really interesting that
the practicality part of it, right?

00:31:26.472 --> 00:31:29.272
It's, we usually look
at like next jobs, like,

00:31:29.832 --> 00:31:30.032
Anthony: what

00:31:30.032 --> 00:31:32.992
Michael: I wanna do next, whether
it's find another job, start my

00:31:32.992 --> 00:31:34.117
own business, whatever it may be.

00:31:35.452 --> 00:31:43.582
It's easy to dream about the potential
of it, but we have to also remember

00:31:43.582 --> 00:31:45.592
the, the practical element of it.

00:31:45.892 --> 00:31:47.092
Can I afford to do this?

00:31:47.572 --> 00:31:50.272
Can it support what I'm trying
to build with my family?

00:31:50.272 --> 00:31:54.022
Can it support my, my interests?

00:31:54.802 --> 00:31:58.242
Right, it's like, like you said,
there's a stability element to it

00:31:58.242 --> 00:32:04.332
and I think, you know, we talked
about how if dads are unsure of

00:32:04.332 --> 00:32:07.302
like, they comfortable in their job.

00:32:07.372 --> 00:32:09.282
They're unsure about, like, leaving
because now they have kids, they

00:32:09.282 --> 00:32:10.252
feel like they're stuck there.

00:32:10.542 --> 00:32:16.762
I think there is also a group of dads that
feel trapped because they think that any

00:32:16.762 --> 00:32:18.482
career shift means blowing everything up,

00:32:18.547 --> 00:32:18.787
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:32:19.192 --> 00:32:19.462
Michael: Right?

00:32:20.062 --> 00:32:23.572
Change is hard, and, right,

00:32:24.012 --> 00:32:25.082
Anthony: and so

00:32:25.642 --> 00:32:28.672
Michael: going from one job to another
means, you know, throwing everything

00:32:28.672 --> 00:32:30.267
out the window and hoping for the best.

00:32:32.067 --> 00:32:36.187
How does that fit into
the, into your axis then?

00:32:36.187 --> 00:32:39.157
Like how do you help someone
make meaningful changes

00:32:39.157 --> 00:32:40.882
without blowing up their lives?

00:32:44.047 --> 00:32:48.787
Anthony: That blowing things up
is such a human impulse, I think.

00:32:48.787 --> 00:32:52.507
Like, I, I think everyone can
relate to the, the fantasy of it.

00:32:53.137 --> 00:32:54.847
I certainly can.

00:32:55.687 --> 00:32:59.797
When I was at my most miserable in
the corporate world, I, the only

00:32:59.797 --> 00:33:04.717
thing I could envision as my future
was to quit everything, move to New

00:33:04.717 --> 00:33:06.157
Zealand, and become a sheep farmer.

00:33:09.247 --> 00:33:11.707
It was never an actually fully baked plan.

00:33:13.987 --> 00:33:17.677
It was just, you know, what my mind
cooked up is like anything but this.

00:33:17.677 --> 00:33:18.787
Literally anything but this.

00:33:18.787 --> 00:33:21.367
I need to move to the opposite
side of the world to get away

00:33:21.367 --> 00:33:23.137
from this situation, right?

00:33:26.197 --> 00:33:35.757
In reality, that would be the equivalent
of like taking an entire bottle of Tylenol

00:33:36.037 --> 00:33:38.947
to get rid of a moderate headache, right?

00:33:39.847 --> 00:33:45.817
So, to continue with that analogy of
like medicine, I, I work with, I, I

00:33:45.817 --> 00:33:51.337
borrow a concept from medicine, which
is minimum impactitive dose, right?

00:33:51.337 --> 00:33:56.137
So, with medicine, like if you, if
you took an entire bottle of Tylenol,

00:33:56.137 --> 00:33:59.977
you would probably end up in the ER
for like severe liver problems and

00:33:59.977 --> 00:34:01.477
probably stomach problems, right?

00:34:02.557 --> 00:34:06.157
But if you only took half a pill, when
you have a raging migraine, it's probably

00:34:06.157 --> 00:34:08.257
not gonna do anything either, right?

00:34:08.452 --> 00:34:08.692
Michael: Right.

00:34:09.097 --> 00:34:14.407
Anthony: So, the trick is to find the
dosage, like a sufficient level of

00:34:14.407 --> 00:34:18.517
dosage that is actually gonna give you
the change that you want without tipping

00:34:18.517 --> 00:34:22.027
over into like adverse effects and
side effects and things you don't want.

00:34:23.107 --> 00:34:28.117
And so it's very much the same
approach that I take with change.

00:34:28.127 --> 00:34:35.302
Finding the right level of change
that moves the needle on how satisfied

00:34:35.302 --> 00:34:39.412
you are at work without having to
blow everything up and everyone's

00:34:39.532 --> 00:34:42.202
threshold for these things is different.

00:34:42.232 --> 00:34:47.332
It's a very individual decision that
is very situationally dependent.

00:34:47.812 --> 00:34:50.752
So, sometimes it could be as
simple as, well, you don't

00:34:50.752 --> 00:34:51.742
even need to leave your job.

00:34:51.742 --> 00:34:54.582
You just need to advocate for yourself
a little bit better with your boss

00:34:55.522 --> 00:34:59.332
and you can completely transform
how you experience your work.

00:34:59.602 --> 00:35:01.582
I've had quite a few clients do that.

00:35:02.332 --> 00:35:07.192
I've also had clients who completely shift
gears and, you know, I'm thinking about

00:35:07.192 --> 00:35:09.442
someone who was in the film and TV world.

00:35:09.442 --> 00:35:13.072
He was a producer and like
scouting location type person.

00:35:13.702 --> 00:35:18.412
Now he's a physical therapist, and that
was the change that made sense for him.

00:35:19.507 --> 00:35:20.617
Michael: Right, right.

00:35:20.957 --> 00:35:23.967
I love how you, it's, you have
like an individual treatment

00:35:23.967 --> 00:35:26.527
plan for each person, right?

00:35:27.477 --> 00:35:27.897
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:35:28.012 --> 00:35:30.712
Michael: Everybody has their
own experiences, and they bring

00:35:30.712 --> 00:35:33.857
their own baggage or whatever
you want to call it to the table.

00:35:33.907 --> 00:35:34.327
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:35:35.212 --> 00:35:36.952
Michael: Right, and so for
everyone it's different.

00:35:36.952 --> 00:35:42.352
So, what might look like blowing
everything up to me might not look

00:35:42.352 --> 00:35:44.132
like blowing everything up to the

00:35:44.132 --> 00:35:44.622
Anthony: next person,

00:35:44.622 --> 00:35:44.642
Mm-hmm.

00:35:45.382 --> 00:35:45.622
Michael: Right?

00:35:46.202 --> 00:35:49.522
We're gonna have different perspectives
on what's going to move the needle for

00:35:49.522 --> 00:35:52.122
us, and so it is highly individualized.

00:35:52.822 --> 00:35:57.877
And then when you then look at like your
ambition versus the practicality of your

00:35:57.877 --> 00:36:02.947
situation, and you start to compare those
things, right, you can start to find the

00:36:02.947 --> 00:36:05.547
right level of change that is needed.

00:36:06.067 --> 00:36:08.527
And it's interesting to say like, yes,
you can still find satisfaction in a job

00:36:08.587 --> 00:36:11.137
you aren't currently satisfied in, right?

00:36:11.287 --> 00:36:15.007
Not in every situation, but there are
times where it's just the, you know,

00:36:15.187 --> 00:36:16.177
you have to advocate for yourself.

00:36:16.177 --> 00:36:17.977
You have to look at it from a
different perspective or maybe take

00:36:17.977 --> 00:36:20.857
on a different opportunity within
the same organization, right?

00:36:20.857 --> 00:36:24.262
Or you find something outside of
work that helps fill in some of the

00:36:24.262 --> 00:36:25.872
gaps that you're missing at work

00:36:26.012 --> 00:36:26.417
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:36:27.742 --> 00:36:28.612
Michael: To help you get there.

00:36:29.812 --> 00:36:35.062
A lot of, it, you know, on the
surface, as you say it, it's

00:36:35.062 --> 00:36:36.712
like, that's so obvious, right?

00:36:36.712 --> 00:36:42.002
Like you should, you know, find
the thing that is right for you.

00:36:42.002 --> 00:36:47.782
You don't have to blow it up, but when
we're stuck in it, in day to day, like we

00:36:47.782 --> 00:36:49.612
do have some form of tunnel vision, right?

00:36:49.612 --> 00:36:52.162
We're not, we don't see
all the potential outcomes.

00:36:52.162 --> 00:36:55.402
We just see what's in front of
us and what we think is outside

00:36:55.402 --> 00:36:56.882
that tunnel, and we don't know.

00:36:57.032 --> 00:36:57.322
Anthony: Yeah.

00:36:57.412 --> 00:36:59.932
Michael: You know, like we haven't done
that next, whatever that next thing

00:36:59.972 --> 00:37:09.172
is for us, so, it's a great reminder
to, to me as a dad of like, yes, I

00:37:09.172 --> 00:37:16.072
can make changes, and it can be at a
level that I'm comfortable with, but it

00:37:16.087 --> 00:37:18.427
will help bring me more satisfaction.

00:37:18.607 --> 00:37:19.887
I could do it at my speed,

00:37:20.007 --> 00:37:20.167
Anthony: Yeah.

00:37:20.277 --> 00:37:20.567
Michael: right?

00:37:21.227 --> 00:37:25.327
But in order to do that, I need to
think through what is it that is

00:37:25.327 --> 00:37:30.247
going to make me happy and what is
reasonable, what is practical, what

00:37:30.247 --> 00:37:34.697
is going to bring some stability to
the situation as I make this change?

00:37:35.747 --> 00:37:37.707
So, really, really, interesting.

00:37:38.017 --> 00:37:42.457
I'm wondering then, like, if someone
listening today feels that gap between

00:37:42.657 --> 00:37:47.327
success and satisfaction, what's kind
of the first question that you would

00:37:47.327 --> 00:37:48.532
ask them or they should ask themselves?

00:37:50.452 --> 00:37:52.732
Anthony: The question that
everyone's probably already asking

00:37:52.732 --> 00:37:54.472
themselves is, what do you want?

00:37:56.212 --> 00:37:56.302
Michael: Yeah.

00:37:56.362 --> 00:37:59.252
Anthony: Which is way
easier to ask than answer.

00:37:59.272 --> 00:38:02.062
It's a deceptively difficult question.

00:38:03.892 --> 00:38:07.687
And it's, it's particularly loaded
too because we want many things.

00:38:07.717 --> 00:38:09.427
I want, I want to

00:38:11.497 --> 00:38:14.797
I, I wanna look like a million bucks, and
I also want to eat ice cream, for example.

00:38:15.757 --> 00:38:16.267
Right?

00:38:17.137 --> 00:38:19.717
And it's the same, it's the
same with with our careers.

00:38:21.127 --> 00:38:25.237
And one of the, one of the through
lines that I see in almost every

00:38:25.237 --> 00:38:31.282
single client that I work with is
that people are overwhelmed, right,

00:38:31.522 --> 00:38:35.512
by that question because the answer
to it is a thousand things that

00:38:35.512 --> 00:38:37.132
are contradictory to each other.

00:38:37.192 --> 00:38:41.902
And I end up thinking about like, well,
I want to do this, but is it practical?

00:38:41.902 --> 00:38:42.922
I also want to pay the bills.

00:38:42.922 --> 00:38:44.812
I also wanna make a lot of money.

00:38:44.992 --> 00:38:50.932
I also, like, I also want to, like,
not disappoint my dad, right, you know,

00:38:51.082 --> 00:38:53.002
whether he is still alive or not, right?

00:38:53.002 --> 00:38:57.022
Like, I, like, my internalized idea
of like what will, what will he

00:38:57.022 --> 00:38:58.582
think and what will my kids think?

00:38:58.582 --> 00:39:06.622
And, and, and then it just turns into
this whole morass of like, oh my God, I

00:39:06.622 --> 00:39:12.892
am just getting overloaded, and I'm just
gonna exit the entire system, and you will

00:39:12.892 --> 00:39:15.382
find me eating pizza in a corner, right?

00:39:16.962 --> 00:39:17.312
Michael: Right.

00:39:17.617 --> 00:39:22.327
Anthony: And so before we ask anything,
the very first task is actually to just

00:39:22.357 --> 00:39:27.457
organize the journey, because all of the
questions that are sub-, subsidiary to

00:39:27.457 --> 00:39:31.657
that, like what do you want, are actually
all really important, but what happens

00:39:31.657 --> 00:39:38.527
for the most part is that they get asked
at the same time, which just, you know,

00:39:38.827 --> 00:39:42.877
ends up with binging an entire pie.

00:39:43.972 --> 00:39:44.432
Michael: Right.

00:39:44.647 --> 00:39:50.167
Anthony: So, the same way that, you know,
when you're, when you're like helping

00:39:50.167 --> 00:39:54.847
your kids with, like, learning to do
their chores, for example, like it's

00:39:54.847 --> 00:39:58.957
something that is initially overwhelming,
but if you add structure and process to

00:39:58.957 --> 00:40:03.967
it, it makes the whole thing go easier
and it's so much less overwhelming.

00:40:05.167 --> 00:40:08.737
So the very first thing I do is just
actually orient people to, like,

00:40:08.737 --> 00:40:12.847
the first thing we're gonna do is
forget everything else, we're gonna

00:40:12.847 --> 00:40:15.622
learn about what makes you tick.

00:40:15.922 --> 00:40:19.642
What actually are the conditions that
make you satisfied outside of work?

00:40:20.002 --> 00:40:23.602
We don't even talk about work for
the first few sessions, right?

00:40:23.632 --> 00:40:23.842
Michael: Right.

00:40:24.892 --> 00:40:29.692
Anthony: Let's talk about you
as a human, as a personality and

00:40:29.992 --> 00:40:36.442
get to understand like certain
ingredients of what you need, right?

00:40:36.442 --> 00:40:37.642
Like, what are you interested in?

00:40:37.672 --> 00:40:44.112
What's your style when you pre-,
pursue that, and then later, you know,

00:40:44.112 --> 00:40:46.792
we can start layering in the other
questions of, okay, if that's what

00:40:46.792 --> 00:40:48.862
you want, how is that being met now?

00:40:49.162 --> 00:40:50.422
How is it not being met now?

00:40:51.412 --> 00:40:52.822
Where could it be met better?

00:40:53.482 --> 00:40:56.602
How do you need to actually
advocate for yourself?

00:40:58.347 --> 00:40:58.587
Michael: Yep.

00:40:59.637 --> 00:41:03.507
I like that 'cause you, you're taking
what, on the surface, like you said, is

00:41:03.507 --> 00:41:08.797
a simple question, but ends up being this
whole big morass of, like, impossibility

00:41:08.797 --> 00:41:12.157
that, and you end up with eating a
whole pizza and sitting in the corner

00:41:12.217 --> 00:41:18.097
by yourself, right, but you're breaking
it down into smaller steps, right?

00:41:18.097 --> 00:41:24.767
You're not trying to solve
all of humanity in one right?

00:41:24.857 --> 00:41:25.277
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:41:25.657 --> 00:41:28.627
Michael: You are taking it like,
okay, it's a simple question on the

00:41:28.627 --> 00:41:32.167
surface, but it has big ramifications,
and there's actually a lot of

00:41:32.167 --> 00:41:33.907
different elements to that question.

00:41:34.217 --> 00:41:40.087
In order to get to a satisfactory answer,
you have to look at it from different

00:41:40.087 --> 00:41:43.537
angles, and there are different aspects
of it you have to answer first, right?

00:41:44.187 --> 00:41:48.742
Yes, it's one question, but really
it's a collection of questions.

00:41:49.042 --> 00:41:49.642
Anthony: Exactly.

00:41:49.897 --> 00:41:53.787
Michael: Right, and, you know,
typically when you're taking a

00:41:53.787 --> 00:41:56.927
quiz, you're not answering all
the questions at once, right?

00:41:56.937 --> 00:41:57.847
You're taking them one time.

00:41:57.913 --> 00:41:58.247
Anthony: Right.

00:41:59.077 --> 00:42:00.862
Michael: Right, so, I imagine it's
the same thing here where it's

00:42:00.862 --> 00:42:02.857
like, okay, what do I wanna do next?

00:42:02.857 --> 00:42:03.817
Well, let's break that down.

00:42:03.997 --> 00:42:05.677
First, what makes me tick, right?

00:42:06.397 --> 00:42:09.607
Then, what is practical for me?

00:42:09.637 --> 00:42:13.102
Like, all the different questions
that, that you can ask, but you're

00:42:13.102 --> 00:42:14.322
not answering 'em all at once.

00:42:14.392 --> 00:42:15.022
Anthony: Exactly.

00:42:15.767 --> 00:42:19.567
Michael: You're, you're breaking it
down into the individual units that then

00:42:19.567 --> 00:42:25.537
eventually build a full structure, right,
which then will help you be able to create

00:42:25.547 --> 00:42:31.192
that graph that you talked about earlier
of the x-axis being the, the practicality

00:42:31.192 --> 00:42:34.792
and the y-axis being your satisfaction and
being able to figure out, you know, where

00:42:34.852 --> 00:42:39.487
things fall on that graph for you, right,
but you can't get to the end without

00:42:39.657 --> 00:42:41.977
taking the steps to get there first.

00:42:42.127 --> 00:42:42.217
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:42:43.327 --> 00:42:43.942
That's very well put.

00:42:44.107 --> 00:42:45.257
Michael: I, I love it.

00:42:45.297 --> 00:42:45.627
Thank you.

00:42:45.717 --> 00:42:48.922
Well, I mean, it's all based
on, on your ideas here.

00:42:49.012 --> 00:42:53.407
I'm just making sure I, I understand this
properly, and I think it's very clear.

00:42:53.982 --> 00:42:57.502
I think that you know, a lot of dads
I talk to are like, I don't even

00:42:57.502 --> 00:43:02.332
know where to start, right, when it
comes to whatever the issues may be,

00:43:02.332 --> 00:43:05.422
and, oftentimes, it's like, I wanna
be more active and present at home,

00:43:05.422 --> 00:43:07.612
but I still need to earn a living.

00:43:07.642 --> 00:43:08.692
I don't really like my job.

00:43:08.692 --> 00:43:11.062
I'd love to do something
different, or I'd love to earn

00:43:11.062 --> 00:43:12.292
more money, whatever it may be.

00:43:12.982 --> 00:43:19.192
And it's like, okay, whatever
that challenge is, we can break

00:43:19.192 --> 00:43:21.382
that down to smaller steps, right?

00:43:21.502 --> 00:43:24.172
As dads, we can look at,
okay, what does make me tick?

00:43:24.292 --> 00:43:29.317
And part of that is spending time with
my family, raising my kids, like being

00:43:29.317 --> 00:43:34.417
there for some of their activities and
accomplishments and the opposite of that,

00:43:34.417 --> 00:43:38.657
like when they, when they fail at things
and when they, you know, learn lessons.

00:43:38.657 --> 00:43:41.987
Like, being there for those
things also gives satisfaction.

00:43:42.097 --> 00:43:44.857
It's like, alright, how do I
build those into what else, what

00:43:44.872 --> 00:43:45.292
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:43:45.942 --> 00:43:47.227
Michael: I'm gonna do with my life?

00:43:47.227 --> 00:43:52.717
Like you were giving a practical
blueprint for how do you, whether it's

00:43:52.717 --> 00:43:56.507
balance or harmony, whatever, however
you wanna frame it, like how do you

00:43:56.507 --> 00:44:03.457
find that right fit for you between work
that is satisfactory or brings meaning

00:44:03.457 --> 00:44:09.457
to you and being active and present at
home, and also taking care of yourself,

00:44:09.532 --> 00:44:09.802
Anthony: Yeah.

00:44:09.877 --> 00:44:12.472
Michael: Right, 'cause, I say it all the
time, like, if you don't take care of

00:44:12.472 --> 00:44:17.107
yourself, you're not gonna be able, you're
not gonna be there very long to take care

00:44:17.107 --> 00:44:21.607
of those that you care about, take care of
the work that, that matters to you, right?

00:44:21.607 --> 00:44:24.247
You, there, it's, there's
three pillars here.

00:44:24.247 --> 00:44:27.127
And you, you can't neglect
any one of those three.

00:44:27.277 --> 00:44:30.637
You just have to find out, find
for you, where those pillars

00:44:30.697 --> 00:44:31.737
fit and where they stand.

00:44:32.777 --> 00:44:32.937
But

00:44:32.937 --> 00:44:33.037
Anthony: you

00:44:33.037 --> 00:44:38.237
Michael: make it so straightforward
of, like, yeah, it's a loaded question.

00:44:38.847 --> 00:44:39.767
What do you wanna do?

00:44:40.577 --> 00:44:43.157
But there's a practical way to do this,

00:44:43.207 --> 00:44:43.477
Anthony: Yeah.

00:44:43.927 --> 00:44:44.197
Michael: right?

00:44:44.377 --> 00:44:45.577
And it's not overwhelming.

00:44:45.607 --> 00:44:47.617
It doesn't have to be overwhelming, right?

00:44:47.677 --> 00:44:49.457
Like, you can make this
something manageable.

00:44:49.657 --> 00:44:50.107
Anthony: Yes.

00:44:50.287 --> 00:44:50.587
Yes.

00:44:50.587 --> 00:44:51.127
That is,

00:44:53.362 --> 00:44:54.292
again, very well put.

00:44:54.442 --> 00:44:58.312
Also, a stark reminder to, to make
sure we take care of ourselves.

00:44:59.272 --> 00:45:08.062
And a lot of that comes from my own
journey with, you know, related but

00:45:08.272 --> 00:45:14.642
unrelated topic of managing my own
ADHD, right, like, someone like my, my

00:45:14.677 --> 00:45:18.547
attention can go into a million places,
and one of the ways that I've learned

00:45:18.547 --> 00:45:22.687
to manage it, that I've also found very
effective for the people who I work with,

00:45:22.687 --> 00:45:28.807
whether they're ADHD or not, is to break
down the task into manageable chunks.

00:45:29.962 --> 00:45:30.172
Michael: Yep.

00:45:30.892 --> 00:45:31.412
Absolutely.

00:45:31.892 --> 00:45:32.292
I love that.

00:45:33.032 --> 00:45:35.952
So, I know I keep saying practical 'cause

00:45:35.952 --> 00:45:36.052
it is,

00:45:36.179 --> 00:45:36.452
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:45:36.982 --> 00:45:38.562
Michael: but it's also empowering, right?

00:45:38.712 --> 00:45:38.932
Anthony: Yes.

00:45:38.992 --> 00:45:41.892
Michael: Because now we're taking
something that can feel overwhelming,

00:45:43.342 --> 00:45:48.402
and now you've identified a
process manage it and make it work

00:45:48.472 --> 00:45:48.892
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:45:49.282 --> 00:45:49.382
Michael: for you.

00:45:50.112 --> 00:45:50.252
Anthony: I

00:45:50.532 --> 00:45:50.682
Michael: love that.

00:45:50.737 --> 00:45:54.292
So, we go from the serious
to the completely unserious.

00:45:54.292 --> 00:45:55.372
I wanna jump into our speed round.

00:45:55.372 --> 00:45:56.512
It has nothing to do with anything.

00:45:56.722 --> 00:45:59.482
Five quick questions for
you if you're ready for 'em.

00:45:59.872 --> 00:46:03.967
The first question is, what's the first
kids show theme song that comes to mind?

00:46:05.852 --> 00:46:07.152
Anthony: I'm gonna date myself.

00:46:08.902 --> 00:46:13.252
I'm a product of the nineties
and early two thousands.

00:46:14.722 --> 00:46:17.752
The end of the show, Lamb Chop.

00:46:17.812 --> 00:46:19.612
This is The Song That Never Ends.

00:46:22.687 --> 00:46:23.287
Michael: Wow.

00:46:23.677 --> 00:46:25.107
I think that's the first time
that's been answered on this show.

00:46:25.192 --> 00:46:25.462
Anthony: Really?

00:46:26.437 --> 00:46:27.697
Michael: Yeah, that's a great one, though.

00:46:29.167 --> 00:46:32.242
I mean, it's not great to remember that
song 'cause now it'll be like in my head.

00:46:32.242 --> 00:46:32.422
Anthony: Yeah.

00:46:32.427 --> 00:46:33.207
Sorry, not sorry.

00:46:34.412 --> 00:46:36.262
Michael: No, no, no, no, but great answer.

00:46:37.342 --> 00:46:38.482
What was your very first job?

00:46:39.307 --> 00:46:41.497
Anthony: I was a math tutor.

00:46:42.097 --> 00:46:43.267
I was very good at math.

00:46:44.467 --> 00:46:52.747
And so I made a few extra bucks while I
was in college teaching, teaching high

00:46:52.747 --> 00:46:54.977
school kids how to pass their SATs.

00:46:56.512 --> 00:46:56.932
Michael: Awesome.

00:46:57.772 --> 00:46:58.222
Very useful.

00:46:58.252 --> 00:47:01.282
So, would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:47:01.282 --> 00:47:02.947
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:47:04.347 --> 00:47:08.092
Anthony: I, I feel like I could
contain a toddler-sized T-Rex better.

00:47:09.397 --> 00:47:09.847
Michael: Okay.

00:47:10.297 --> 00:47:10.597
All right.

00:47:11.467 --> 00:47:12.967
What's your go-to karaoke song?

00:47:14.962 --> 00:47:18.142
Anthony: Also another product
of the early two thousands.

00:47:18.447 --> 00:47:19.492
I Want It That Way.

00:47:20.787 --> 00:47:22.577
Michael: Alright, Backstreet Boys, right?

00:47:22.612 --> 00:47:23.092
Anthony: Mm-hmm.

00:47:24.127 --> 00:47:24.277
Michael: Yeah.

00:47:25.027 --> 00:47:25.387
Very well.

00:47:25.387 --> 00:47:27.547
And, finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:47:27.547 --> 00:47:28.987
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:47:31.207 --> 00:47:35.197
Anthony: This isn't really weird,
but it happens all the time.

00:47:35.647 --> 00:47:41.977
I just find dog treats in all of my
clothes pockets, like sometimes weeks

00:47:41.977 --> 00:47:44.467
after I've, you know, last worn it.

00:47:47.677 --> 00:47:48.367
Michael: Fair enough.

00:47:48.367 --> 00:47:48.377
Awesome.

00:47:49.087 --> 00:47:50.227
Well, I appreciate that.

00:47:50.767 --> 00:47:53.377
Anthony, before we wrap up,
I wanna give you the floor.

00:47:53.377 --> 00:47:57.292
If someone's listening right now and
thinking like, this is me, like, I'm

00:47:57.292 --> 00:47:58.912
successful, but I'm not satisfied.

00:47:58.912 --> 00:48:02.512
Or maybe I'm in a tough place
right now, but I just, I wanna find

00:48:02.512 --> 00:48:05.782
work that really means something
to me, brings me satisfaction,

00:48:05.842 --> 00:48:07.522
kind of replenishes my battery.

00:48:08.332 --> 00:48:08.992
Where should they go?

00:48:08.992 --> 00:48:12.112
What, what are you building or offering
that could help them take that next step?

00:48:12.967 --> 00:48:16.687
Anthony: So first off, my website, I
can be reached at untamedcareer.com.

00:48:19.237 --> 00:48:24.817
And one of the things I know to be true
about career dissatisfaction is that

00:48:24.817 --> 00:48:26.887
it can be a really lonely experience.

00:48:27.097 --> 00:48:31.657
I know I felt that way when I was in the
depths of it, and I know a lot of people

00:48:32.407 --> 00:48:34.177
that I work with feel the same way.

00:48:34.747 --> 00:48:37.567
It's just something that you feel
like you can't necessarily talk

00:48:37.567 --> 00:48:42.157
to your friends or family about,
because it's, it's very loaded.

00:48:42.187 --> 00:48:46.087
There's a bit of stigma around it,
especially if you're successful, right?

00:48:46.747 --> 00:48:49.927
I know that when I talk to my friends
about it, I kind of got some version of

00:48:49.927 --> 00:48:51.727
like, dude, you have such a good job.

00:48:51.727 --> 00:48:53.317
You make so much money,
what's your problem?

00:48:54.187 --> 00:48:54.517
Right?

00:48:54.517 --> 00:48:58.087
So they only see it from the outside, but
they don't experience it from the inside.

00:48:58.447 --> 00:49:02.377
So one of the things that I'm
really excited about is I've,

00:49:02.467 --> 00:49:07.267
I've built a program that's around
community, doing this as a community

00:49:07.597 --> 00:49:09.277
where you can do it with people.

00:49:09.487 --> 00:49:12.277
Go through this process of figuring
out what makes you tick, where

00:49:12.277 --> 00:49:14.977
can you find that, and how do
you actually make that a reality?

00:49:14.977 --> 00:49:16.897
Doing it with other people.

00:49:17.527 --> 00:49:21.967
And, and there's just a wonderful
community of people who,

00:49:22.687 --> 00:49:26.467
you know, we have collective
accountability, collective momentum.

00:49:27.127 --> 00:49:31.357
There's also like a built-in network
effect where, you know, I know a

00:49:31.357 --> 00:49:35.197
lot of people get nervous about
like reaching out to people, but

00:49:35.347 --> 00:49:38.797
it's less nerve wracking if you're
asking somebody who's in it with you.

00:49:39.997 --> 00:49:41.077
Michael: Right, right.

00:49:41.107 --> 00:49:41.787
Anthony: And, so, if that at all....

00:49:41.952 --> 00:49:43.727
Michael: And they may know
someone they can introduce you to.

00:49:43.777 --> 00:49:44.317
Anthony: Exactly.

00:49:44.317 --> 00:49:44.527
Yeah.

00:49:44.527 --> 00:49:45.907
So if that at all sounds interesting.

00:49:45.907 --> 00:49:52.777
I have two groups, one for like
senior leaders and executives and

00:49:52.777 --> 00:49:56.257
another for people who are a little
bit more like mid-career, which,

00:49:56.377 --> 00:50:00.247
you know, typically is associated
with when you start having kids.

00:50:01.447 --> 00:50:01.657
Michael: Right.

00:50:01.957 --> 00:50:02.377
Awesome.

00:50:02.527 --> 00:50:04.587
And can they find those
groups at untamedcareer.com?

00:50:04.587 --> 00:50:04.917
Anthony: They can.

00:50:04.977 --> 00:50:05.197
Michael: Excellent.

00:50:05.237 --> 00:50:06.527
We'll put that in the show notes for sure.

00:50:06.827 --> 00:50:08.717
Anthony, I really appreciate
this conversation.

00:50:09.347 --> 00:50:13.022
You know, I think a lot of dads,
myself included, you know, we quietly

00:50:13.022 --> 00:50:18.872
carry this tension between providing
and really feeling alive in our work.

00:50:19.022 --> 00:50:22.142
Finding that thing that like really
as you said, makes us tick, right?

00:50:22.142 --> 00:50:27.212
And the way you broke down success
versus satisfaction, I think gives

00:50:27.212 --> 00:50:32.402
us language to something we feel,
but I think have a hard time naming.

00:50:33.002 --> 00:50:37.562
Um, so it may, you made it, know I've said
practical about 300 times this episode,

00:50:37.562 --> 00:50:42.767
but you make it feel not just practical,
but like something that is actually

00:50:42.767 --> 00:50:44.897
doable, like it, we can accomplish this.

00:50:45.557 --> 00:50:48.707
So, I'm really grateful that you came
on today to chat with me and your

00:50:48.707 --> 00:50:53.807
honesty and your clarity about this
topic of finding the work that, that

00:50:53.807 --> 00:50:57.397
really makes you tick, brings you
satisfaction, but is still going to

00:50:57.397 --> 00:51:01.082
support the life that you wanna live
as practical for you, so I appreciate.

00:51:01.082 --> 00:51:01.777
Thank you for being here.

00:51:02.732 --> 00:51:05.342
Finally, before you go, if you're a dad
listening to this and you find yourself

00:51:05.342 --> 00:51:08.912
in between, navigating a season that
feels different, head to gaptogig.com, and

00:51:08.912 --> 00:51:10.412
subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:51:10.832 --> 00:51:13.742
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:51:13.742 --> 00:51:15.002
and what really matters right now.

00:51:15.112 --> 00:51:17.612
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:51:17.612 --> 00:51:18.632
dad who might need to hear it.

00:51:19.052 --> 00:51:20.432
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:51:20.432 --> 00:51:22.382
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.