Chip Scholz on Navigating the Changing Seasons of Fatherhood

WEBVTT

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Chip: I reject the concept that there is
a, a difference between work and life.

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You know?

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There's only life, and you don't leave
work when you go to life, and you

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don't leave life when you go to work.

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So it's all, it's all a part of life.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today's guest is Chip Scholz.

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Chip is an executive coach, author,
and storyteller who has spent nearly

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three decades helping leaders navigate
transition, growth, change, and

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the often complicated relationship
between who they are and what they do.

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He's the author of "Small Decisions,
Big Shifts," "Every Dog Has His Day,"

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and the upcoming book, "Handoffs,"
which explores leadership, succession,

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and the challenge of letting go of
identities we've spent years building.

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Chip, welcome to Gap to Gig.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Chip: Michael, it's a pleasure.

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It really is.

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Michael: I appreciate that.

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So one of the ideas that runs through
so much of your work is that life

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changes less through big breakthrough
moments and more through small

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shifts that accumulate over time.

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You talk about the shifts
that shape your life a lot.

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When you look back on your own
journey, what were some of the small

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decisions that ended up changing far
more than you realized at the time?

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Chip: You know, it's, it's pretty
interesting when you talk about that,

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and I, I go back to how I met my wife.

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She came in looking for a
job and I, I didn't hire her.

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I ended up marrying her.

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But she, you know, it was,
it was just a small decision.

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And, and what with the small decision,
I think it, the real small decision

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is that about a year later after we
met, and we hit it off pretty well,

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but she was married at the time and,
and I wasn't that kind of a guy.

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And she, she called me about a year later.

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She happened to be a telemarketer
and her territory happened to include

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the company that I worked for.

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And so we just struck it up again,
and this time she was divorced.

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And so, you know, I just made one of
the gutsiest calls I've ever made and

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I said, I, I said "So are you going
through all the post-divorce yayas?"

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And she said, "What's that?"

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And I said, "You know, cut your hair, hang
out with strange men, that kind of thing."

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She said, "Well, there's only one
way to find out." And the gutsiest

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thing I ever did was I said, "Great.

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Let's have dinner Wednesday night." And
she, and, and so, you know, it changed,

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it changed the course of our lives.

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We, we got married a year to the
day after, after we we met or

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after we, we had that first date.

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And, and we've been married for 42 years.

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And, and so it's, it's not the
compilation of, of the big things.

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Michael: Right.

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Chip: It's the compilation
of what you do every day.

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Michael: Right.

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Chip: You know 85% of what we, what
we do every day we don't think about.

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We've already decided, we already,
you know, it's, it's stuff that's,

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that's unconscious competent.

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We, we just, we don't
think about it anymore.

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And, and so if we wanna change, if we
wanna do something different, we've

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gotta, we've gotta make that, that
decision every day when we get up.

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You know, I, I think courage is, is best
defined by the courage of showing up,

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which means you get up every morning
and do the thing that you need to do.

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That's, that's real courage.

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Michael: Right.

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It's putting yourself out there, right?

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Giving yourself the opportunity
to have these opportunities to

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meet your wife, your future wife.

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You know, it, if you didn't allow yourself
to be open to responding to her, to your

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wife when she said, "There's only one
way to find out," if you didn't allow

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yourself that opportunity, if you didn't
give yourself, if you didn't have the

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courage to put yourself in that situation
to begin with of asking her out on that

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first date, it wouldn't happen, right?

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And I think that

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Chip: That's right.

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Michael: it's,

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I don't know if I want to call it a
skill or not, but it is a choice that

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we can consciously make or not make
in all aspects of our life, right?

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If we are trying to go after that
promotion at work, if we are trying

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to create our own business, if we are
trying to, you know, set a new path for

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our families, the only way to do that
is to put ourselves out there to allow

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ourselves to go after that, to accomplish
that, to take those steps, right?

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But like you said, you
have to choose to do that.

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It, very rarely does it just come
to you, right, it, unless you've put

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yourself in that position to begin with.

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Chip: Well, you, you, you, it's, it
takes a, another step, too, Michael.

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It, it, you have to know what you want.

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Michael: Right.

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Chip: It comes back to saying, "Okay,
so how do we frame it up?" Well, the,

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the way that I look at it is when I,
when I ask coaching clients or when

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I ask people that I'm working with
what is their definition of success?

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You know, what are, what are the
things that mean success for them?

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And, and I never hear the, the house or
the car or the vacation home or the, you

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know, the trip to France or anything.

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I always hear happy family, happy,
ha-, you know, happy wife happy

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financial stability, things like that.

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So I always hear that.

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So those are lifelong pursuits, but we
don't really frame that in the things

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that we wanna do long term, and then
we have a harder time saying yes to the

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things that, that, that we really want.

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And we get, we get caught
up in the whirlwind.

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We get caught up in, in, you know,
having to take the kids to soccer

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practice and, you know, pick up the
dry cleaning and that kind of thing.

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Michael: Right.

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I think, you know, you said it's,
it's hard to know what you want.

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It's easy to know what you, it's
easier to know what you don't want.

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I think, for me at least, and I think
for a lot of dads out there, it's,

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you don't know what you don't know
you haven't experienced it yet, right?

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And so the best way to find out what you
do want is to experience things, which

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means, again, putting yourself out there.

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That doesn't mean you have to
go and do the most high-risk,

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crazy things in the world.

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You don't have to go paragliding off a
mountain or, you know, jump out of an

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airplane to know whether or not you're
gonna like something like that, right?

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Or what your goals are going to be.

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But it means giving yourself an opport-,
allowing yourself the opportunity to have

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experiences and allow those experiences
to shape kind of where you want to go in

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the next phase, next season of your life,

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Chip: Yeah.

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Michael: right?

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If you, if you discover

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Chip: Yeah.

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Michael: a new hobby or you discover
work that you love or work that you

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don't love, that you want to move away
from, like those are signals to you

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that, okay, what do I want to do next?

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A-, and how does that
kind of fit into that?

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Yes, the long term, I
want to have a happy life.

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I want to be financially stable.

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Most people have goals like that, but
there needs to be things that are what's

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meaningful to you at the end of the day.

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Like what is going to
bring you satisfaction?

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And, to me, I think it does
come down to experience.

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And if you don't allow yourself to
experience new things, and that could

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be any, experience is essentially
time, right, is giving yourself time

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to learn new things, see new things,
hear new things, feel new things.

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As you start to, you know, bring those
senses together, what works for you?

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What doesn't?

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What clicks?

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Like what is going to make you happy?

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Because we spend a lot of time working.

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We spend a lot of time

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Chip: taking

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Michael: care of ourselves,
taking care of our families.

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And so like you said, like
sometimes we just get lost in the

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day-to-day, in the nitty-gritty.

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We got to get our kids to practice.

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We got to get them to their
doctor's appointments.

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We got to get them here or there,
and we have to go get gas for the

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car, and we have to get groceries.

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And so we don't always take a step back to

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Chip: figure

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Michael: out what is it that I
am, why am I doing these things?

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Yes, I'm doing them because I just
need to sustain life for me and my

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family, but there is a, probably
a deeper meaning there, right?

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And just because we might be
in a busy season now doesn't

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mean we can't think about

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Chip: where

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Michael: we, what direction
we want to head next.

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And,

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Chip: you

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Michael: know, like I think a lot
of dads listening right now are in a

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season where work demands are high,
kids are busy, life feels pretty full

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and, and as a result, it is so
easy to miss some of those small

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shifts, some of those experiences
while we're living through them.

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Why do you think that is?

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Why do you think we miss some of these
small moments as we're trying to figure

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out, you know, the direction of our
lives and just living day to day?

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Chip: You know, I, I guess the,
the question is, Michael, do you

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think being a dad is, is tough?

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Or do you think being a dad is
tougher now than it was in the past?

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Michael: Yeah, I mean, for
me, I, I don't know how I can

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compare it to the past, right?

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I wasn't a father in the 1950s.

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I wasn't a father in the 1980s, right?

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I'm a father now.

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Chip: Okay.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: It's like, I don't know.

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Chip: That's true.

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That's true.

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Michael: Right, so it's times
change, you know, and things change.

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I think fatherhood is demanding.

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Yes, everybody's situation is different,
and there's ebbs and flows to fatherhood.

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Sometimes, you know, you're riding a great
high when things are going really well,

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and sometimes, you know, it's easy to
get down because kids aren't listening or

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not behaving or, you know, work is tough.

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Maybe you're going through a
divorce, maybe you're, you know,

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you're going through things.

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And so fatherhood feels more
challenging in that moment, right?

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'Cause fatherhood is demanding because
you are, people are relying on you to be

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responsible for things as a father, right?

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And so there is, there are
demands on you that is demanding.

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Is that tough?

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I don't know.

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I don't know the answer to that, right?

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It, it may be.

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It may be for some, it's tougher
for some people than it is others.

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But I'm, you know, I'm trying to
think like, because it's demanding,

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I think it is difficult to miss
some of these small moments, right?

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That actually have greater impact
on us in the long run, right?

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Like, to me…

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Chip: Th-, so there's a difference between
small moments and small decisions, right?

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Michael: Sure.

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Chip: So, so, there, you can pick up on
those small moments and you, you might

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not pick up on those small moments,
and those small moments may have a

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big impact later on in, in your life.

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So what I'm talking about is more
the small decisions that you make.

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So, so a small decision may be that
you're open to those small moments.

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Michael: Right.

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Chip: You know?

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'Cause listen, I, I don't think that being
a dad is, is the toughest thing ever.

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I don't think that being a mom
is the toughest thing ever.

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I think it's, I think it's,
it's, you know, both difficult

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to be a mom and a dad.

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But I, I think there are a
lot of expectations on fathers

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that, that might not be

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the same as, as they,
they might otherwise be.

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I mean, look, I came to
fatherhood in a rush.

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I inherited three, three kids
and, and three small kids.

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And

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I, I'll tell you, you know,
one day I just added water and

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all of a sudden I had a family.

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That's a whole lot different, I think,
than, than going through and getting

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all the, the, the small kid and the
diapers and all that kind of stuff.

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Michael: Right.

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Chip: I kind of missed all that.

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But like, like I said, 42 years and, and
I'm still, I'm still hanging in there.

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And and I think I've, I've,
my, my wife and I have raised

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some pretty amazing daughters.

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And I've got three daughters, by the way.

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I, I didn't know if I mentioned that.

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But, you know,

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it's, it's a decision to, to pay
attention to the small moments.

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Does that make any sense?

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Michael: Yeah, I think that's
where, that's where I was heading.

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I, I think I, you know, I probably come
across as conflating small moments with

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small decisions because I think the small
moments lead to those decisions, right?

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It's experiencing those moments
which leads to the decisions.

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Like, okay, I just had this moment with
my daughter where we, you know, came up

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with this new crazy game, and I realized
that that creativity is something

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that I want more of in my life, and I
want that creativity with my daughter.

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Like, I want to do tho-, that
particular experience with her.

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So I'm gonna consciously make a decision
to, you know, more of these moments

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with my child to do that, because
that is more meaningful and more

00:13:52.247 --> 00:13:55.717
fulfilling for me in that moment, right?

00:13:56.977 --> 00:13:59.207
Yeah, you're not gonna pay attention
to every small moment that happens.

00:13:59.207 --> 00:14:01.497
You're not gonna remember, you
know, who turned off the lights

00:14:01.497 --> 00:14:04.737
downstairs, you know, before you
went to bed, right, every day.

00:14:04.737 --> 00:14:09.057
You're not gonna remember those little
things all the time, but there are

00:14:09.057 --> 00:14:14.977
those moments, and like for me, often
it is based around conversation, right?

00:14:14.977 --> 00:14:19.147
It is having that offhand
conversation with one of my kids.

00:14:19.247 --> 00:14:22.037
It's having that offline, offhand
conversation with my wife or with

00:14:22.037 --> 00:14:25.027
a friend, where it just reminds me
of like, yeah, that is important.

00:14:25.037 --> 00:14:29.437
To me, that was the moment that I want
to capture and hold onto, and that is

00:14:29.437 --> 00:14:33.057
what I want to keep coming back to,
and I need to, to do that more often.

00:14:33.057 --> 00:14:36.067
It's very easy for me as an introvert
to be like, "Okay, I'm gonna separate

00:14:36.067 --> 00:14:40.497
myself and, you know, just take time
for myself," which is a good thing, you

00:14:40.497 --> 00:14:45.257
know, to take care of yourself, but at
the same time, if I want to grow and

00:14:45.257 --> 00:14:49.847
accomplish more and feel more fulfilled,
I do need to put myself out there, right?

00:14:49.847 --> 00:14:52.697
And so it's like, I do recognize
in some of these smaller moments

00:14:53.087 --> 00:14:55.597
that that is a moment where I
can make a conscious decision.

00:14:55.607 --> 00:14:58.747
Do I spend more time doing that
thing or less time doing that thing?

00:14:59.387 --> 00:15:03.017
Does that motivate me to now go pursue
something else, like a new opportunity?

00:15:03.737 --> 00:15:07.597
Maybe, but I have to put myself in
that moment in order to discover

00:15:08.077 --> 00:15:10.067
that potential for a decision, right?

00:15:10.067 --> 00:15:13.667
So I, I think, you know, I say s-,
I, I said small moments, you said

00:15:13.667 --> 00:15:17.927
small decisions, and yes, they are
two different things, but I think

00:15:17.937 --> 00:15:20.217
they are interconnected, right?

00:15:20.217 --> 00:15:20.237
The,

00:15:20.919 --> 00:15:21.209
Chip: Yeah.

00:15:21.397 --> 00:15:23.677
Michael: The small moments lead to
the, the, to the small decisions.

00:15:24.921 --> 00:15:24.941
Chip: Yeah.

00:15:24.951 --> 00:15:25.241
Yes.

00:15:25.491 --> 00:15:29.661
So, so y-, you know, here's,
here's an interesting question.

00:15:29.671 --> 00:15:32.201
We were talking about dads
and all the things they do.

00:15:33.551 --> 00:15:38.121
Do you like the concept
of work-life balance?

00:15:41.365 --> 00:15:43.595
Michael: I like, yes and no.

00:15:44.735 --> 00:15:44.965
Okay.

00:15:45.265 --> 00:15:46.735
I, I'm toeing the line here.

00:15:46.735 --> 00:15:50.485
I know I'm not giving you the answer
that, that you're actually asking for.

00:15:52.125 --> 00:15:54.085
I think both have a place.

00:15:54.445 --> 00:15:56.395
Both work and life have a place.

00:15:57.075 --> 00:15:59.305
And, you know, I've, I've
talked about balance before.

00:15:59.305 --> 00:16:03.615
I've, and I, I've talked to career coaches
and life coaches, and they're always like,

00:16:04.325 --> 00:16:05.845
"It's not balance, it's alignment," right?

00:16:05.845 --> 00:16:10.385
You gotta align, you know, what matters
to you in terms of what you wanna do

00:16:10.485 --> 00:16:12.365
for work and what you wanna do for life.

00:16:12.375 --> 00:16:15.855
For me, you can call it balance,
you can call it alignment, you

00:16:15.855 --> 00:16:17.575
can call it anything you want.

00:16:18.735 --> 00:16:26.705
To me, it's, it all comes down
to what do I want out of my life?

00:16:26.715 --> 00:16:28.665
I have a limited amount of
time on this earth, right?

00:16:28.995 --> 00:16:36.985
As far as I know, I've got this one life
to live, and I can choose however I want

00:16:36.985 --> 00:16:39.515
to spend my time for the most part, right?

00:16:39.525 --> 00:16:41.555
Like, I'm gonna have to sleep.

00:16:41.555 --> 00:16:42.225
I'm gonna have to eat.

00:16:42.265 --> 00:16:43.735
There are certain things
I'm gonna just have to do.

00:16:45.989 --> 00:16:48.989
Do I want to spend more time
doing work that has a greater

00:16:49.009 --> 00:16:50.199
impact on those I care about?

00:16:50.259 --> 00:16:50.779
Yes.

00:16:50.979 --> 00:16:52.299
That to me is more meaningful work.

00:16:52.449 --> 00:16:53.689
So I want some of that in my life.

00:16:54.869 --> 00:17:00.019
I also want that life part of
the work-life balance, alignment,

00:17:00.019 --> 00:17:01.149
whatever you want to call it, right?

00:17:01.469 --> 00:17:05.349
I w-, I know I only have so much
time with the people around me, the

00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:09.989
people that are important to me,
family, friends, colleagues, you know,

00:17:10.059 --> 00:17:15.329
those are the people that I want to
make sure that I still connect with.

00:17:15.329 --> 00:17:18.629
And it doesn't mean I have to spend
all my time doing that either, right?

00:17:18.629 --> 00:17:23.229
It's just every day, what is giving me
the fulfillment and moving me forward

00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.199
towards my goal of having this impact?

00:17:26.199 --> 00:17:30.949
Like, to me, I think my life's purpose
is to just put a little bit more good

00:17:30.949 --> 00:17:37.309
into this world by surround-, by allowing
or helping the people I care about

00:17:37.309 --> 00:17:40.649
most be able to help others as well.

00:17:40.649 --> 00:17:44.669
So if I can impact my kids, my
friends, my family to do good, to

00:17:44.679 --> 00:17:48.639
do well, to treat others well, that
is the impact I think I can have.

00:17:48.789 --> 00:17:52.189
I'm not going to, you know,
win a Nobel Peace Prize.

00:17:52.219 --> 00:17:54.699
I'm not going to win the Stanley Cup.

00:17:55.609 --> 00:17:57.379
I'm fine with that, right?

00:17:57.849 --> 00:18:02.003
That, that's not gonna bring me any
more fulfillment than seeing the

00:18:02.003 --> 00:18:06.893
people around me happy and contributing
and fulfilled, and, to me, that

00:18:06.903 --> 00:18:09.513
is how I base my decisions now.

00:18:09.693 --> 00:18:12.783
Okay, am I gonna spend,
yes, I do need to work.

00:18:12.803 --> 00:18:13.713
I do need to earn a living.

00:18:13.713 --> 00:18:15.133
I do need to keep a roof over my head.

00:18:16.163 --> 00:18:18.453
So yes, I'm going to do some
of that, but can I do that in

00:18:18.453 --> 00:18:20.453
a way that is meaningful to me?

00:18:21.693 --> 00:18:25.893
So that is a really long-winded way of
saying, yeah, work-life balance, sure,

00:18:25.893 --> 00:18:31.023
it's a thing, but you might, everybody
has different terminology for it, right?

00:18:31.063 --> 00:18:32.763
And I'm fine with any of that terminology.

00:18:33.063 --> 00:18:35.253
It's recognizing that there
are these different pieces,

00:18:35.253 --> 00:18:36.613
these different pillars, right?

00:18:36.613 --> 00:18:37.623
There's the work pillar.

00:18:38.013 --> 00:18:40.993
There's the, the home, the
family, friends pillar.

00:18:41.153 --> 00:18:42.273
You also have to take care of yourself.

00:18:42.273 --> 00:18:45.963
You can't show up for work and
show up for your family if you're

00:18:45.963 --> 00:18:47.963
run down and you haven't taken
care of yourself either, right?

00:18:47.983 --> 00:18:50.583
At some point, you're not
gonna have enough energy.

00:18:50.843 --> 00:18:53.303
And I think what I'm discovering,
too, as I get older, is that there's

00:18:53.303 --> 00:18:56.063
also this, there might be a fourth
pillar here of, like, community,

00:18:56.603 --> 00:18:59.963
right, of, a, and for everybody,
that might look different, right?

00:19:00.043 --> 00:19:02.403
For me, it was coaching,
you know, youth sports.

00:19:02.413 --> 00:19:04.613
For others, it could be teaching,
it could be volunteering.

00:19:04.613 --> 00:19:08.563
It could be all different ways or just
finding a group of people that are

00:19:08.563 --> 00:19:14.243
like-minded that you can coalesce with
and contribute something greater together.

00:19:15.303 --> 00:19:17.083
But that's, all that is just me, right?

00:19:17.083 --> 00:19:22.203
And I think that's what makes parenting
so interesting, is that everybody has a

00:19:22.203 --> 00:19:25.723
different experience, and everybody can
look at it from their own perspective.

00:19:26.253 --> 00:19:29.513
And I, my perspective might
work for me, might not work for

00:19:29.513 --> 00:19:31.203
somebody else, and that's okay too.

00:19:32.943 --> 00:19:35.843
I'm curious now, like, if I flip that
question back on you, what is your answer?

00:19:36.283 --> 00:19:37.893
Like, do you believe in work-life balance?

00:19:38.283 --> 00:19:41.813
Chip: Well, first of all, I, I
reject the concept that there is a,

00:19:41.923 --> 00:19:44.053
a difference between work and life.

00:19:44.923 --> 00:19:45.313
You know?

00:19:45.363 --> 00:19:49.023
There's only life, and you don't leave
work when you go to life, and you

00:19:49.023 --> 00:19:50.543
don't leave life when you go to work.

00:19:50.983 --> 00:19:53.603
So it's all, it's all a part of life.

00:19:53.673 --> 00:19:56.783
And, and you say it is pillars.

00:19:57.613 --> 00:19:58.893
I say life areas.

00:19:58.893 --> 00:19:59.303
You know?

00:19:59.673 --> 00:20:01.693
I, I look at mind, body, spirit.

00:20:03.403 --> 00:20:08.983
I look at family, I look at financial,
I look at, at, at career and, and

00:20:08.983 --> 00:20:12.603
look at all those different parts of
life and, and every-, everything, I,

00:20:12.603 --> 00:20:17.643
I think in terms of seasons rather
than like every day has to balance.

00:20:17.833 --> 00:20:21.523
I have to work eight hours, I have to play
eight hours, I have to sleep eight hours.

00:20:22.473 --> 00:20:26.403
That's kind of crazy because
it's, it's an impossible standard.

00:20:26.653 --> 00:20:32.393
I, I think work-life balance was
a, a, a phrase that some guy who

00:20:32.393 --> 00:20:37.433
missed his kid's soccer game came
up with to, to say how it was.

00:20:37.613 --> 00:20:41.053
So, you know, I think it's, I think
it's more in terms of seasons.

00:20:41.523 --> 00:20:44.713
You know, there are times when
your family takes the lead, right?

00:20:45.103 --> 00:20:49.723
And, and you just, you know, whether
it's a good thing or a bad thing, your,

00:20:49.733 --> 00:20:54.433
your kid's being born, your kid's getting
married there are things that you're

00:20:54.433 --> 00:21:00.773
gonna have to do that, that are, are going
to engage you and, and wrap you up and,

00:21:00.803 --> 00:21:04.563
and your, your career takes a backseat.

00:21:05.983 --> 00:21:10.093
There are gonna be times when if you
wanna get an advanced education and,

00:21:10.113 --> 00:21:14.763
and you're going back to school, God,
that is, that is an all-absorbing…

00:21:14.763 --> 00:21:20.383
I've had a bunch of clients that that
went back and, and got MBAs even w-, you

00:21:20.383 --> 00:21:26.903
know, while they're mid-career and some
had some pretty heavy-duty obligations.

00:21:28.183 --> 00:21:30.513
So it's, it's all seasons, you know?

00:21:32.055 --> 00:21:32.155
Michael: Right.

00:21:32.455 --> 00:21:33.935
Yeah, I, I agree with that.

00:21:33.945 --> 00:21:37.255
I, I think and seasons change, right?

00:21:37.255 --> 00:21:41.645
It's your, this could be a season
where you're more focused on family.

00:21:41.645 --> 00:21:45.785
It could be, you know, that
you just need to work, right?

00:21:45.785 --> 00:21:47.005
You need to focus on work.

00:21:47.105 --> 00:21:50.015
Maybe you have your own business,
and it is flailing, and you need

00:21:50.015 --> 00:21:51.755
to put some pieces together.

00:21:51.755 --> 00:21:53.015
You just put more time into that.

00:21:53.015 --> 00:22:00.765
But you have to have a plan to…
I don't think you can neglect one

00:22:02.125 --> 00:22:06.255
and still support, and support the
other and hope that they all just

00:22:06.385 --> 00:22:07.595
kind of work itself out, right?

00:22:07.795 --> 00:22:07.925
You

00:22:07.975 --> 00:22:08.165
Chip: Yep.

00:22:08.935 --> 00:22:11.165
Michael: have to take all aspects
of what's important to you.

00:22:11.455 --> 00:22:13.305
And for some people, work is
never going to be important.

00:22:14.485 --> 00:22:14.945
Okay.

00:22:15.115 --> 00:22:16.915
Like that, then you know that.

00:22:16.925 --> 00:22:22.205
Then you can kind of figure out what your,
your alignment is, what your balance is,

00:22:22.205 --> 00:22:23.955
what you're, what season you're in, right?

00:22:23.985 --> 00:22:29.105
But you do need to consider all these
different pillars, or you call them

00:22:29.115 --> 00:22:32.105
areas, that are important to you, right?

00:22:32.205 --> 00:22:32.305
But that, again,

00:22:32.371 --> 00:22:32.761
Chip: That's right.

00:22:33.025 --> 00:22:35.525
Michael: that differs
person by person, right?

00:22:35.597 --> 00:22:36.107
Chip: That is.

00:22:36.257 --> 00:22:36.727
That is.

00:22:38.235 --> 00:22:43.065
Michael: So one of the things I hear
from dads all the time is, "I know

00:22:43.865 --> 00:22:48.625
what matters, but I still struggle
to act like it matters." Right?

00:22:49.195 --> 00:22:53.235
Why is there often such a gap
between what we know and how we

00:22:53.235 --> 00:22:56.465
actually live or execute some of
the stuff we're talking about?

00:22:57.465 --> 00:22:58.155
Chip: That's interesting.

00:22:58.265 --> 00:23:01.615
You know, I, I never was one
of those kind of dads that,

00:23:03.895 --> 00:23:07.615
that spent a lot of time, you know,
playing golf on, on the weekend

00:23:07.615 --> 00:23:12.935
with his buddies or, or, you
know, I just, I didn't have that.

00:23:14.335 --> 00:23:18.605
So I didn't have a lot of competing
priorities, but, but I would imagine

00:23:18.605 --> 00:23:20.155
it's, it's competing priorities.

00:23:20.155 --> 00:23:22.425
It's, it's, it's, you know…

00:23:25.405 --> 00:23:30.325
Yeah, I, I, I realized there, there are
people that I've had as friends for,

00:23:30.355 --> 00:23:34.835
for a while, but I realized a long time
ago that, that I didn't want to do the

00:23:34.845 --> 00:23:37.525
things that I needed to do to be a friend.

00:23:39.235 --> 00:23:43.445
And so that, that wasn't the, the
most important part of, of my life.

00:23:44.375 --> 00:23:49.175
That was one of those pillars that,
that just suffered and, and that's okay.

00:23:52.125 --> 00:23:53.875
But it, it is.

00:23:53.885 --> 00:23:57.975
It's, it's getting s-, it's getting
sucked into the whirlwind, you know?

00:23:58.375 --> 00:24:05.205
It's, it's just having so much to do,
and it's, I, I, I think to a great degree

00:24:08.115 --> 00:24:10.835
we spend a lot of our lives faking it.

00:24:13.425 --> 00:24:17.485
We spend a lot of our lives, and, and
they, they call it imposter syndrome

00:24:17.485 --> 00:24:21.025
now, but it's really, it's really
faking it and feeling like we have

00:24:21.025 --> 00:24:24.755
to fake it and feeling like we have
to have all the answers and feeling

00:24:24.755 --> 00:24:26.425
like we have to be performative.

00:24:27.575 --> 00:24:31.615
And w-, one of the, one of the
shifts that, that happened in my

00:24:31.615 --> 00:24:38.245
life is, is the, the shift from
being performative to being useful

00:24:40.601 --> 00:24:49.461
And, and I think that, you know, as, as
dads or as moms, but, but as dads, you

00:24:49.461 --> 00:24:52.751
know, most of, most of the time we, we
just wonder what the hell's happening.

00:24:53.879 --> 00:24:54.209
Michael: Right.

00:24:54.937 --> 00:24:56.377
Chip: And we're just
trying to figure it out.

00:24:57.337 --> 00:25:00.837
And, and sometimes we figure it out
well, and sometimes we, we don't.

00:25:01.137 --> 00:25:05.527
And we hope, we hope that we're the
kind of dads that, that later on

00:25:05.527 --> 00:25:10.117
in life our, our kids tell great
stories about, and do you remember

00:25:10.117 --> 00:25:12.107
the time, and all that kind of stuff.

00:25:12.407 --> 00:25:17.297
And yeah, they, they may be a little
embarrassing, but, you know, you hope

00:25:17.427 --> 00:25:22.687
they're the good stories rather than, "Can
you believe the old man was such a jerk?"

00:25:24.247 --> 00:25:31.857
So, you know, I, I think, I think it's
part that, that we don't know what to do.

00:25:32.637 --> 00:25:36.227
I think it's part that we haven't
decided what we're gonna do.

00:25:37.307 --> 00:25:44.147
And I, I think the most, most
successful people are, are the ones

00:25:44.167 --> 00:25:50.037
that, that learn how to be themselves
early and are not performative.

00:25:50.577 --> 00:25:52.297
And, and, you know, there's
a lot of pressure on us.

00:25:52.567 --> 00:25:53.097
Think about it.

00:25:53.657 --> 00:25:57.417
We're, we're under pressure to
perform at work, and most of, most

00:25:57.417 --> 00:26:00.627
of the time, we're mostly terrified
when we're, we're at work anyway.

00:26:01.597 --> 00:26:07.377
And, and I don't care if you're, you're
a CEO or, or somebody that is just

00:26:07.677 --> 00:26:10.557
out selling or an engineer, you know?

00:26:11.137 --> 00:26:13.657
Most of the time we're just, we're
just trying to figure it all out.

00:26:14.507 --> 00:26:17.817
And then, and then compound it
with with what we're doing at home.

00:26:18.801 --> 00:26:19.031
Michael: Yeah.

00:26:19.781 --> 00:26:24.981
Yeah, I think this idea
of being performative is

00:26:27.761 --> 00:26:32.101
something we all do, at least to some
degree, and it's almost subconscious.

00:26:32.221 --> 00:26:34.871
Like, we don't even think about it.

00:26:34.971 --> 00:26:38.631
Like, we just think that's
what is expected of us, right?

00:26:38.631 --> 00:26:42.991
We are expected to achieve, achieve,
achieve, especially, you know, in

00:26:43.041 --> 00:26:45.131
today's day and age with social
media and everything, everybody's

00:26:45.131 --> 00:26:47.861
putting out-, putting their best foot
forward constantly, all the time.

00:26:47.861 --> 00:26:51.241
It's right in your face of
like, "Look what I did at work.

00:26:51.241 --> 00:26:52.251
Look what I accomplished.

00:26:52.251 --> 00:26:53.641
Look at the deal I closed.

00:26:53.671 --> 00:26:57.811
Look at what my kids just did." You
know, "Look at the vacation we just

00:26:57.811 --> 00:27:02.141
took." And you're, you're trying to
keep up with the Joneses to some degree,

00:27:04.369 --> 00:27:08.509
but that isn't being true to yourself,
and it makes it much more difficult,

00:27:08.509 --> 00:27:12.989
I think, to find what is meaningful
to you, what is fulfilling to you.

00:27:13.779 --> 00:27:22.129
I do push back on the notion that
the earlier you can discover that,

00:27:23.029 --> 00:27:24.539
the more successful you will be.

00:27:24.539 --> 00:27:28.889
I think, I don't think it really matters
what stage of life you figure that out.

00:27:28.909 --> 00:27:32.819
When you do figure it out, that is,

00:27:34.993 --> 00:27:36.083
that's a new season, right?

00:27:36.083 --> 00:27:39.133
And so, like, everybody's
seasons are different.

00:27:39.703 --> 00:27:39.863
Chip: I

00:27:39.863 --> 00:27:42.913
Michael: think you can be just as
successful figuring that out at 45 than

00:27:42.913 --> 00:27:45.103
you are figuring that out at 25, right?

00:27:45.283 --> 00:27:49.373
I think, either way, you're still buil-,
building up that well of experiences

00:27:49.373 --> 00:27:50.493
that you can draw from, right?

00:27:50.513 --> 00:27:55.873
And that these small moments that
you can then start to make decisions

00:27:58.273 --> 00:27:58.609
You know, I wonder,

00:27:58.609 --> 00:27:58.979
Chip: There's…

00:27:59.461 --> 00:28:06.631
Michael: like, in terms of being
performative, like, sometimes it can feel

00:28:06.631 --> 00:28:09.491
like we are pursuing meaningful work,

00:28:12.625 --> 00:28:16.815
but oftentimes we kind
of just stay busy, right?

00:28:16.835 --> 00:28:19.295
Like, because busy feels productive,

00:28:19.565 --> 00:28:19.835
Chip: Yeah.

00:28:20.275 --> 00:28:20.625
Michael: right?

00:28:21.765 --> 00:28:22.395
Do you see that?

00:28:22.395 --> 00:28:27.145
And like, how can you tell if you're
being busy just for, to feel productive

00:28:27.145 --> 00:28:30.975
versus being busy 'cause you're generally
pursuing something that is meaningful?

00:28:32.111 --> 00:28:33.341
Chip: Well, think about it, Michael.

00:28:33.421 --> 00:28:38.711
We are judged and, and compensated
our whole life for what we do…

00:28:41.307 --> 00:28:42.407
not for who we are.

00:28:44.227 --> 00:28:45.907
At some time that shifts.

00:28:47.107 --> 00:28:51.107
At some point, you know, maybe when
you're, when, maybe when you're

00:28:51.117 --> 00:28:54.247
managing managers, you know, when
you're, when you're one step away

00:28:54.247 --> 00:28:57.517
from the work or two steps away
from the work, maybe that shifts.

00:28:58.097 --> 00:29:00.427
But, you know, depends on what you do.

00:29:00.427 --> 00:29:03.557
If you're, if you're in sales, if you're
in engineering, if you're, if what-,

00:29:03.587 --> 00:29:09.717
whatever your, your situation is, you're
compensated and judged for what you do.

00:29:09.787 --> 00:29:11.787
It's, it's been ingrained in us.

00:29:12.357 --> 00:29:14.417
It's been ingrained in us to be busy.

00:29:15.067 --> 00:29:17.847
It's been ingrained in us not to be bored.

00:29:17.857 --> 00:29:22.247
I mean are you ever bored?

00:29:24.027 --> 00:29:24.987
Michael: Me personally, no.

00:29:25.357 --> 00:29:26.737
I couldn't tell you the
last time I was bored.

00:29:27.185 --> 00:29:27.535
Chip: Yeah.

00:29:28.465 --> 00:29:29.685
Is boredom a bad thing?

00:29:32.667 --> 00:29:34.727
Michael: I mean, to me,
no, I don't think it is.

00:29:35.467 --> 00:29:38.577
I don't, but because I don't
recall last time I was bored.

00:29:38.637 --> 00:29:41.187
Like, I think maybe in the moment,
right, your short-term thinking is

00:29:41.187 --> 00:29:43.957
like, "Well, this is not what I want to
be doing. I don't want to be bored. I

00:29:43.957 --> 00:29:50.697
want to be doing something fun." Right,
but, to me, I think the way I overcame

00:29:50.797 --> 00:29:58.007
boredom when I was younger was through
discovery, through finding something that

00:29:58.007 --> 00:30:00.907
would move me away from boredom, right?

00:30:00.907 --> 00:30:07.107
Whether that was reading or playing
a game or getting outside and, you

00:30:07.107 --> 00:30:11.627
know, playing a sport, whatever it
was like for me to figure out that

00:30:11.737 --> 00:30:15.337
can occupy my mind so that I'm not
thinking about boredom itself, right?

00:30:15.347 --> 00:30:20.297
It's, so to me that, yeah, boredom can
be beneficial because it can help you

00:30:20.297 --> 00:30:22.477
discover what's interesting to you.

00:30:22.803 --> 00:30:24.673
Chip: Boredom is the
wellspring of creativity.

00:30:26.443 --> 00:30:26.793
Yeah.

00:30:27.003 --> 00:30:32.393
So if you never give yourself a
chance to, to stop being so busy,

00:30:33.683 --> 00:30:36.963
but, you know, we get a huge
dopamine rush off of, of being busy.

00:30:37.213 --> 00:30:40.923
It's, it's like if you got a to-do
list, right, and, and you start

00:30:40.923 --> 00:30:44.063
checking things off your to-do list,
we get a dopamine rush every time

00:30:44.063 --> 00:30:45.793
we check one of those things off.

00:30:46.675 --> 00:30:46.885
Michael: Right.

00:30:48.921 --> 00:30:54.131
Chip: Okay, so we check a bunch of things
off that don't mean anything, and we

00:30:54.131 --> 00:31:00.021
leave the big things to, to rot, and we
may never get around to those big things.

00:31:00.411 --> 00:31:01.301
So what have we done?

00:31:03.681 --> 00:31:03.823
Michael: Right, you're just

00:31:03.823 --> 00:31:04.253
Chip: Got a lot,

00:31:04.591 --> 00:31:04.721
Michael: spinning your wheels.

00:31:04.913 --> 00:31:07.333
Chip: yeah, we got ,a lot
of dopamine rushes, but it

00:31:07.333 --> 00:31:08.873
hasn't worked really well, so.

00:31:09.305 --> 00:31:09.475
Michael: Right.

00:31:09.845 --> 00:31:16.015
And the more you do that, the more,
the less effect that dopamine rush

00:31:16.015 --> 00:31:17.655
will have on you, I presume, right?

00:31:17.655 --> 00:31:22.565
So if you c-, constantly are hitting
that, that dopamine button, that

00:31:22.755 --> 00:31:26.161
at some point it's gonna take more
in order to have the same effect

00:31:26.161 --> 00:31:26.711
Chip: That's right.

00:31:26.835 --> 00:31:26.875
Michael: on you.

00:31:27.021 --> 00:31:27.561
Chip: That's right.

00:31:27.975 --> 00:31:28.155
Michael: Right.

00:31:28.325 --> 00:31:30.825
So, gotta kind of figure
that out in moderation.

00:31:30.825 --> 00:31:36.135
So th-, this kind of makes me think
of, of something else that, that you

00:31:36.135 --> 00:31:39.675
do, and you, you do woodturning, right?

00:31:39.709 --> 00:31:39.849
Chip: Mm-hmm.

00:31:40.325 --> 00:31:41.335
Michael: You, you told me that.

00:31:41.375 --> 00:31:46.015
And this is where kind of
that you could be bored or you

00:31:46.015 --> 00:31:47.135
can go do something, right?

00:31:47.135 --> 00:31:49.955
And for you, it's, it sounds like
it's working with your hands.

00:31:49.985 --> 00:31:52.665
And, you know, you've told
me that you found unexpected

00:31:52.665 --> 00:31:54.615
lessons through woodturning.

00:31:54.995 --> 00:31:58.665
What has working with your hands
taught you about patience and

00:31:58.665 --> 00:32:03.735
attention and being present, you know,
that we can apply a-, as fathers?

00:32:05.379 --> 00:32:07.839
Chip: Well, first of all, if you're, if
you're not present while you're working

00:32:07.839 --> 00:32:13.589
on wood and especially on a, on a, a piece
of wood that's 30 pounds and spinning

00:32:13.589 --> 00:32:19.019
at, at 800 RPMs and it wants to take
your head off, you better be present.

00:32:19.601 --> 00:32:19.921
Michael: Yeah.

00:32:20.419 --> 00:32:20.829
Chip: Yeah.

00:32:21.139 --> 00:32:23.969
But, you know, I, I tell you what
it learned, what I learned, and

00:32:23.969 --> 00:32:26.899
it, it has to do with patience,
is you can't force the cut.

00:32:28.059 --> 00:32:28.469
You know?

00:32:29.059 --> 00:32:32.809
And, and raising kids, you
can't force the cut, you know?

00:32:32.959 --> 00:32:37.889
Because for some reason they have
minds of their own and, and, you

00:32:37.889 --> 00:32:40.729
know, they're not always gonna do
what you tell them to do, and they're

00:32:40.729 --> 00:32:42.249
not always gonna listen to you.

00:32:42.649 --> 00:32:46.429
And, and so if you try to
force it, what happens?

00:32:48.109 --> 00:32:49.799
Not so good things happen.

00:32:50.229 --> 00:32:54.039
And, and so, you know, that's,
that's what I learned about about

00:32:54.089 --> 00:32:57.964
wood turning especially is that,
and, and what I'm talking about with

00:32:57.964 --> 00:33:01.049
force the cut is think about trees.

00:33:01.089 --> 00:33:03.519
I mean, they're dead slices
of vegetative matter.

00:33:03.529 --> 00:33:06.009
That's, that's what
Callum Robinson calls it.

00:33:06.419 --> 00:33:09.299
Callum Robinson is a,
is a, a craftsperson.

00:33:09.299 --> 00:33:14.489
He wrote a book called Ingrained about
a year or two ago and, and I, I just

00:33:14.489 --> 00:33:16.339
really was fascinated by the book.

00:33:16.659 --> 00:33:21.149
But they're, they're a whole collection
of fibers, and what you're trying

00:33:21.149 --> 00:33:26.319
to do is you're trying to cut the
fibers rather than scrape the fibers

00:33:26.319 --> 00:33:30.599
because when you, when you cut
the fibers, it comes across clean.

00:33:30.829 --> 00:33:34.829
When you scrape the fibers, it pulls the
fibers out and you get a really rough

00:33:34.829 --> 00:33:38.449
surface of, you know, and, and think
about what the first thing is that a,

00:33:38.509 --> 00:33:40.199
a person does when they pick up a bowl.

00:33:41.089 --> 00:33:43.429
They pick up a bowl and they feel it.

00:33:43.985 --> 00:33:44.275
Michael: Yeah.

00:33:44.789 --> 00:33:49.509
Chip: And if it's, if it's rough, you
know, unless it's supposed to be, you

00:33:49.509 --> 00:33:54.939
know, unless somebody's textured it, then,
then it doesn't feel good and, and they

00:33:54.949 --> 00:33:56.649
don't, they're not attracted to that bowl.

00:33:56.899 --> 00:34:02.449
But when you get a, a bowl that's,
like, soft as a baby's behind, they,

00:34:02.499 --> 00:34:06.639
it feels good and they wanna keep
holding it and, and caressing it.

00:34:07.099 --> 00:34:12.069
And, and, and same thing, same
thing with, with oh, with kids or,

00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:14.269
or relationships or, or anything.

00:34:14.639 --> 00:34:15.569
You can't force it.

00:34:16.389 --> 00:34:21.069
You know, I, I think I heard something
like there, somebody said there

00:34:21.069 --> 00:34:24.299
were five or six things that you
can't do, and one of them is can't,

00:34:24.309 --> 00:34:26.039
you can't make someone love you.

00:34:27.985 --> 00:34:28.515
You know?

00:34:28.605 --> 00:34:34.795
And, and that is, that is forcing
the cut, is, is just, you know, I

00:34:34.795 --> 00:34:37.455
don't care, I don't care whether
it's kids or, or what we do.

00:34:38.285 --> 00:34:39.295
You gotta be patient.

00:34:39.815 --> 00:34:44.945
One of my favorite sayings
is, is Semper Gumby.

00:34:44.945 --> 00:34:48.545
And Semper Gumby is well, you
know what Gumby is, right?

00:34:48.715 --> 00:34:51.225
Gumby's this little
claymation character, right?

00:34:51.605 --> 00:34:51.855
Michael: Yeah.

00:34:51.955 --> 00:34:54.145
Chip: And, and Glum-,
Gumby is always flexible.

00:34:54.565 --> 00:34:56.935
And so Semper Gumby is always flexible.

00:34:57.375 --> 00:35:00.505
Well, always flexible, I've been
using that for probably the last

00:35:00.515 --> 00:35:04.905
20 years because not everything's
gonna work out the way you want it.

00:35:05.625 --> 00:35:05.925
Michael: Right.

00:35:06.175 --> 00:35:09.535
Chip: And there's another learning
lesson from, from wood turning as well.

00:35:10.195 --> 00:35:16.375
When you start off to make something,
it isn't going to end up being the same

00:35:16.375 --> 00:35:17.945
shape that you thought it would be.

00:35:19.785 --> 00:35:22.673
You know, and you gotta be
flexible in, in the meantime.

00:35:22.673 --> 00:35:26.762
Michael: You can't always
control what's in front of you.

00:35:27.022 --> 00:35:28.512
You can control yourself.

00:35:28.612 --> 00:35:31.372
You have control over decisions
that you can make, right?

00:35:31.372 --> 00:35:34.012
But you can't control how
the wood is going to turn.

00:35:34.022 --> 00:35:38.832
You can't control, you know, what sort
of cut you're gonna get, just like you

00:35:38.832 --> 00:35:45.672
can't control, you know, how your kids
go about studying at school or how they,

00:35:46.432 --> 00:35:50.642
you know, play a sport or do an activity
or what they may be interested in.

00:35:50.652 --> 00:35:56.052
You can expose them to different
experiences, different interests,

00:35:56.052 --> 00:35:58.912
different hobbies, different
activities, sports, whatever it

00:35:58.912 --> 00:36:03.412
may be, but you can't force them
to do that for their lives, right?

00:36:03.520 --> 00:36:03.860
Chip: Yep.

00:36:05.502 --> 00:36:06.992
Michael: Like you can show
them, "Hey, this is, this is

00:36:07.092 --> 00:36:08.502
soccer. Go try it out," right?

00:36:08.502 --> 00:36:10.492
And they can try it out and,
but you're not gonna be able

00:36:10.492 --> 00:36:11.822
to make them love the sport.

00:36:12.320 --> 00:36:12.800
Chip: That's right.

00:36:13.812 --> 00:36:15.552
Michael: You can, maybe they'll
enjoy it, maybe they won't.

00:36:16.102 --> 00:36:19.462
You just have to go in there
with that open mind of, either

00:36:19.462 --> 00:36:21.372
way, I'm okay with that, right?

00:36:21.392 --> 00:36:28.212
Like, for me, I grew up playing hockey
and I coach hockey, and I love hockey.

00:36:28.212 --> 00:36:31.842
I think hockey's the greatest sport
on Earth, but when my f-, my son first

00:36:32.992 --> 00:36:36.142
tried to play hockey, the first time
he went out on the ice, he hated it.

00:36:37.102 --> 00:36:42.452
And I just had to take a step
back and say, "Okay, you tried

00:36:42.452 --> 00:36:44.192
it. That's all I can ask," right?

00:36:44.862 --> 00:36:47.742
"Let's go play basketball. Let's
go play baseball. Let's go play

00:36:47.742 --> 00:36:49.032
soccer." We did all those things.

00:36:49.032 --> 00:36:51.902
Couple years later, he wanted
to try it again, and he did.

00:36:51.902 --> 00:36:54.872
And that became his sport, and
that is what he played for the

00:36:54.872 --> 00:36:56.792
majority of his childhood, right?

00:36:56.912 --> 00:36:58.142
But the timing wasn't right for him then.

00:36:58.142 --> 00:37:02.982
But if I, I think if I had been in that
moment when he first tried to play hockey

00:37:02.992 --> 00:37:06.072
and first tried to skate, and he didn't
like it, and if I said, "No, you're

00:37:06.072 --> 00:37:09.372
getting back out there tomorrow and
doing it again," I'm not sure he would

00:37:09.372 --> 00:37:13.212
appreciate and enjoy the sport the way
he does today, right, 15 years later.

00:37:13.212 --> 00:37:15.282
I think it would be very different.

00:37:16.032 --> 00:37:20.092
You know, at, at some point, we
have to realize that control isn't

00:37:20.122 --> 00:37:22.352
always the a-, the answer, right?

00:37:22.362 --> 00:37:25.812
Sometimes we have to just let
the chips fall where they may

00:37:26.142 --> 00:37:30.332
and be flexible enough, as you
say, to allow what comes, right?

00:37:30.332 --> 00:37:33.722
To, okay, this is the
outcome is going to be.

00:37:34.152 --> 00:37:37.312
Now, is that something I want to spend
more of my time on or less of my time on?

00:37:37.342 --> 00:37:39.872
Like, that is a decision
you can then make.

00:37:39.872 --> 00:37:40.482
It, I, am I

00:37:40.924 --> 00:37:41.072
Chip: Well,

00:37:41.072 --> 00:37:41.772
Michael: interpreting what
you're saying correctly?

00:37:41.944 --> 00:37:42.774
Chip: well, sure, sure.

00:37:42.814 --> 00:37:46.134
And, and, you know, as far as control,
I mean, years of family therapy

00:37:46.134 --> 00:37:49.384
taught me that the more in control
you think you are, the more, the

00:37:49.384 --> 00:37:51.064
less in control you actually are.

00:37:52.044 --> 00:37:56.704
And, and that re-, we learned
that very well with, with one of

00:37:56.704 --> 00:38:00.214
my daughters, but, you know, yes.

00:38:01.224 --> 00:38:05.034
And, and it takes such time,
you know, because man, kids

00:38:05.034 --> 00:38:06.594
drive you nuts, don't they?

00:38:08.524 --> 00:38:15.524
They can, and it just, you know,
it's, it's kinda crazy that way, so…

00:38:16.138 --> 00:38:18.648
Michael: Right, but again,
that's a decision that we made.

00:38:18.648 --> 00:38:23.148
Like, okay, we're, I, I know that my
kids will drive me nuts sometimes, right?

00:38:23.918 --> 00:38:26.318
A-, and for some of the
dumbest things possible.

00:38:27.678 --> 00:38:32.998
But I have made the decision, like,
I'm okay putting up with getting

00:38:33.088 --> 00:38:38.418
driven nuts by some-, something
so dumb 'cause I know the end goal

00:38:38.418 --> 00:38:41.468
for me is much bigger than that.

00:38:41.468 --> 00:38:45.158
There's a bigger picture there because
I think it's a learning experience for

00:38:45.158 --> 00:38:46.318
all of us, and it's just an experience.

00:38:46.328 --> 00:38:47.808
And again, we're in a, we're in a season.

00:38:47.808 --> 00:38:49.708
It's a temporary moment, right?

00:38:49.988 --> 00:38:52.148
The things that aggravate me today
are probably gonna be very different

00:38:52.148 --> 00:38:56.838
than the things that aggravate me
when I'm 80 or so I imagine, right?

00:38:57.058 --> 00:38:59.608
Like, I look at my parents, like,
what aggravates them today versus

00:38:59.608 --> 00:39:02.438
what aggravated them when I was a
kid, I think they're different things.

00:39:02.638 --> 00:39:06.508
And so I think that's, you know,
we have to remind ourselves

00:39:06.518 --> 00:39:08.948
that these are seasons, right?

00:39:09.128 --> 00:39:10.328
We will get through them.

00:39:11.378 --> 00:39:17.618
And not everything will go your way,
but we can f-, we choose what we want to

00:39:17.618 --> 00:39:20.068
focus our time and attention on, right?

00:39:20.128 --> 00:39:24.338
Chip: I ask, I ask a lot of people
if your, if your 80-year-old

00:39:24.338 --> 00:39:27.738
self could go back and tell your
30-year-old self or 20-year-old

00:39:27.738 --> 00:39:29.688
self something, what would it be?

00:39:30.368 --> 00:39:33.958
And maybe even if you're not 80, I
mean, if you're, if you're 50 and,

00:39:33.998 --> 00:39:38.338
and what, what would you go back and
tell your, your, your younger self?

00:39:39.318 --> 00:39:42.488
For me it would be, it ain't a thing.

00:39:43.858 --> 00:39:50.708
All the stuff that you, that you,
that you bit yourself over and, and

00:39:50.868 --> 00:39:53.158
struggled with, it ain't a thing.

00:39:54.678 --> 00:39:55.108
You know?

00:39:56.188 --> 00:39:58.268
So, so, so what would you tell yourself?

00:39:58.318 --> 00:39:59.628
What would you tell your younger self?

00:40:00.190 --> 00:40:03.250
Michael: I mean, I think that is probably
the same message I would, would have for

00:40:03.250 --> 00:40:09.560
myself of like, again, it's whatever I'm
struggling with in the moment, I have to

00:40:09.560 --> 00:40:12.940
realize is most likely temporary, right?

00:40:13.610 --> 00:40:18.460
Unless I lose a limb or, you know, some
outrageous thing happens where it, there's

00:40:18.460 --> 00:40:23.290
a fundamental change to my life, I think
the day-to-day stuff that could aggravate

00:40:23.290 --> 00:40:28.520
me or the day-to-day stuff that can hold
me back are things that I can overcome

00:40:28.520 --> 00:40:34.500
if I want to, but I have to choose to
determine the path I want to go next.

00:40:34.500 --> 00:40:39.240
Like, okay, I don't like the
way that something is happening.

00:40:39.240 --> 00:40:41.410
I don't like the way that
my kids are behaving.

00:40:41.780 --> 00:40:43.970
They're behaving fine these days, but
I'm just saying like, as an example,

00:40:43.980 --> 00:40:49.210
like, I don't like the way they're
behaving, so what can I do to change that?

00:40:49.430 --> 00:40:53.750
What is within my control, and how do
I involve them in figuring out like

00:40:54.670 --> 00:40:57.810
what it is that they could be doing
differently, they can do even better?

00:40:57.810 --> 00:41:03.510
Like, how can I show them what they
are capable of as opposed to what

00:41:03.510 --> 00:41:05.320
I'm accepting right now, right?

00:41:05.360 --> 00:41:10.080
And it doesn't mean I can force
everything on them, but I can certainly

00:41:10.200 --> 00:41:13.610
provide a new experience for them and
for myself that will hopefully make

00:41:13.610 --> 00:41:17.350
things better for, for all of us, right?

00:41:17.350 --> 00:41:22.420
So I think I would have the same advice
of like, it, don't sweat the small stuff.

00:41:22.420 --> 00:41:27.070
Like, it's not going to, it's not going
to matter in the future, most likely.

00:41:27.264 --> 00:41:27.554
Chip: Yeah.

00:41:27.610 --> 00:41:27.790
Michael: It,

00:41:28.014 --> 00:41:28.274
Chip: There,

00:41:28.370 --> 00:41:28.604
Michael: right?

00:41:28.604 --> 00:41:31.324
Chip: there's a, there's a book that
the best part of the book was the

00:41:31.334 --> 00:41:35.014
title, and it's Don't Sweat the Small
Stuff, and It's All Small Stuff.

00:41:35.868 --> 00:41:36.148
Michael: Right.

00:41:36.558 --> 00:41:38.788
Yep, that's, I think, that's exactly it.

00:41:38.968 --> 00:41:45.628
It's, right, 'cause again, we
are one amongst billions of

00:41:45.638 --> 00:41:47.718
people on this earth, right?

00:41:47.758 --> 00:41:53.228
Like, I'm only gonna have so much
of an impact, but only so many

00:41:53.238 --> 00:41:54.958
things can impact me, too, right?

00:41:54.968 --> 00:42:00.518
Like, what you do tonight, you
know, in four hours is probably

00:42:00.518 --> 00:42:03.478
gonna have no impact on what I do
for the rest of my life, right?

00:42:04.098 --> 00:42:04.718
It just won't.

00:42:05.388 --> 00:42:08.478
But me and you having this conversation
right now will probably have an impact

00:42:08.478 --> 00:42:12.358
on me 'cause it's pro-, it's making me
think about things in a different light,

00:42:12.358 --> 00:42:13.768
and it's giving me a new perspective.

00:42:14.198 --> 00:42:19.338
And so I can take advantage of that,
you know, of thinking through some

00:42:19.338 --> 00:42:24.058
of our discussion now and later of
like, yeah, you know, maybe I can

00:42:24.058 --> 00:42:25.588
approach this a little bit differently.

00:42:25.598 --> 00:42:29.708
Maybe the next time I get aggravated about
something, I can remember, you know what?

00:42:29.708 --> 00:42:31.008
It's not really gonna matter when I'm 80.

00:42:31.668 --> 00:42:36.608
And that will allow me to kind
of reset within that moment.

00:42:38.058 --> 00:42:40.758
So one thing I want to, I wanna kind
of shift gears here because there's one

00:42:40.758 --> 00:42:47.338
thing that you write about that I think
is really interesting and is applicable

00:42:47.678 --> 00:42:50.428
even though most dads won't go through,
go through this, which is writing

00:42:50.438 --> 00:42:52.788
about succession and handoffs, right?

00:42:52.968 --> 00:42:59.348
And I, I don't think every dad is
handing off a company right now.

00:42:59.498 --> 00:43:00.708
Maybe some will, some won't.

00:43:00.708 --> 00:43:04.208
Th-, that part really doesn't
matter whether they do or not.

00:43:04.448 --> 00:43:07.958
I think every parent eventually does
hand off responsibility to their kids.

00:43:08.058 --> 00:43:09.258
It doesn't have to be a business, right?

00:43:09.258 --> 00:43:13.448
It can just be life responsibilities
or whatever those may be, or

00:43:13.448 --> 00:43:16.478
just, you know, seeing them off
into their next phase of life.

00:43:16.718 --> 00:43:21.288
What parallels do you see between
leadership, leadership like succession

00:43:21.498 --> 00:43:23.278
or succession planning and parenting?

00:43:23.944 --> 00:43:24.584
Chip: Oh God, yes.

00:43:25.234 --> 00:43:30.424
So, you know, again, you talk
about seasons and, you know, I, I,

00:43:30.594 --> 00:43:34.954
there's the old adage that a son
is a son until he takes a wife, a

00:43:35.024 --> 00:43:38.514
daughter is a daughter until, you
know, for the rest of your life.

00:43:38.844 --> 00:43:45.984
I, there, there is, there is a time
that you've got to let your identity go.

00:43:47.644 --> 00:43:53.024
And, and, yeah, I think it's a shock
for some kids that, that their, their

00:43:53.024 --> 00:43:54.674
parents are actually human beings.

00:43:55.694 --> 00:43:59.484
You know, and, and especially
teenagers, I think it's a shock for,

00:43:59.514 --> 00:44:03.224
for most teenagers to think of their,
their kids as, as human beings.

00:44:03.604 --> 00:44:09.394
But, you know, when, when I talk about
succession, I, I think about all of

00:44:09.404 --> 00:44:18.974
the businesses that have, have, the
family businesses, that the kids are

00:44:18.974 --> 00:44:21.364
no longer welcome at, at Thanksgiving

00:44:23.392 --> 00:44:27.442
because of things their, their parents
have done, their dad has done especially.

00:44:28.812 --> 00:44:33.512
That, you know, there's, there's a
time that you just have to let go.

00:44:34.562 --> 00:44:40.902
And there's a time when you have to y-,
y-, you know, and especially in business,

00:44:40.992 --> 00:44:45.632
your identity gets so wrapped up in
your business that you can't let it go.

00:44:46.702 --> 00:44:50.902
And so, you know, it, it's not, it's
not the parent of teenagers, it's

00:44:50.902 --> 00:44:56.102
the parent of the 45-year-old who is,
is ready to take over the business

00:44:56.112 --> 00:45:00.572
or works in the business or, you
know, it could be the, the two or

00:45:00.572 --> 00:45:02.442
three kids that work in the business.

00:45:03.832 --> 00:45:08.932
And at some point you've
got to stop being the dad

00:45:11.592 --> 00:45:16.182
and let, let that part of your
identity go so you're making good

00:45:16.182 --> 00:45:17.702
decisions about the business.

00:45:18.152 --> 00:45:22.152
And, and that, that happens, you know,
even if you don't own a business.

00:45:22.862 --> 00:45:25.672
I-, if you're getting ready to to retire,

00:45:27.682 --> 00:45:32.312
so many people have no plan for
retirement behind going home and

00:45:32.312 --> 00:45:33.642
helping your wife around the house.

00:45:35.642 --> 00:45:38.342
And if, and if that's your
only plan for, for retirement,

00:45:38.362 --> 00:45:39.892
that's probably not a good plan.

00:45:40.892 --> 00:45:41.172
Michael: Right.

00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:45.620
Chip: So, you know, and, and I, I
heard something the other day that I, I

00:45:45.620 --> 00:45:48.470
thought was pretty, pretty r-, spot on.

00:45:48.850 --> 00:45:50.610
There are three stages of retirement.

00:45:50.850 --> 00:45:55.380
There is vacation, depression,
and then meaning and purpose.

00:45:58.464 --> 00:46:02.364
The reason it's vacation is because
your identity has been so wrapped up

00:46:02.364 --> 00:46:06.234
in what you've been doing that all
of a sudden when you can't do it,

00:46:06.244 --> 00:46:09.544
you're s-, you're free, everything's
wonderful, and you run around the

00:46:09.544 --> 00:46:11.754
house like Kevin on, on Home Alone.

00:46:15.584 --> 00:46:19.374
The depression sets in when you realize
that you've just given up your identity.

00:46:22.504 --> 00:46:28.794
It's all of those different parts of
your life that, that it's being willing

00:46:28.794 --> 00:46:34.844
to give up that identity, especially
when it's, when it's causing problems.

00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:38.940
Michael: Yeah.

00:46:38.940 --> 00:46:42.940
Yeah, it, I imagine both ways,
right, of both the parent and

00:46:42.940 --> 00:46:46.810
the child giving up identity or
changing their identity, right?

00:46:46.830 --> 00:46:50.760
Maybe the, the parent is giving up
some identity, but the child's identity

00:46:50.760 --> 00:46:53.430
is also changing 'cause maybe they're
taking over the business, but also

00:46:53.430 --> 00:46:57.230
just in life, maybe they're taking
it on a new stage in life, right?

00:46:57.230 --> 00:47:00.580
Is, is, would it be fair to say that
there's change in identity going both

00:47:00.580 --> 00:47:06.300
ways, or do you feel it's really just the
parent that has that change in identity?

00:47:07.202 --> 00:47:09.382
Chip: I don't know, Michael, do
you think it's, the, do you think

00:47:09.382 --> 00:47:12.702
it's our responsibility to let go?

00:47:14.472 --> 00:47:19.122
You know, kids are gonna be kids
and, and yeah, I, I think, I, I

00:47:19.122 --> 00:47:23.212
think there's, there's some of
that, but it's, it's really our

00:47:23.212 --> 00:47:27.762
responsibility to, to, to let go.

00:47:30.696 --> 00:47:36.516
You know, and, and it's not a case of
us being older or, or being responsible.

00:47:36.516 --> 00:47:38.846
It's a, it's a case of, of what's right.

00:47:40.968 --> 00:47:41.508
You know?

00:47:42.312 --> 00:47:42.562
Michael: Yeah.

00:47:44.152 --> 00:47:48.602
Yeah, I, I think it goes back to,
like, making those small decisions to

00:47:49.042 --> 00:47:50.912
figure out what you want next, right?

00:47:50.982 --> 00:47:54.682
Your identity today is going
to be different than your

00:47:54.682 --> 00:47:57.032
identity when you retire.

00:47:57.042 --> 00:47:59.222
It's gonna be different than the
identity you had when you first

00:47:59.222 --> 00:48:01.592
had kids or when you got married.

00:48:01.602 --> 00:48:06.502
Like, your identity, I think,
changes with the seasons, right?

00:48:06.502 --> 00:48:12.182
So, which is why I feel like it's, there's
identity changes on both sides, right?

00:48:12.182 --> 00:48:17.392
I think both the parent and the child,
as you go through these different

00:48:17.392 --> 00:48:19.122
seasons, their identities change.

00:48:19.852 --> 00:48:25.142
Sometimes, your identity as the father
will affect the ident-, identity of

00:48:25.142 --> 00:48:26.142
your child, and sometimes it won't.

00:48:28.520 --> 00:48:28.850
Chip: Yeah.

00:48:28.886 --> 00:48:31.046
Michael: Or maybe I'm misinterpreting,
you know, kind of how some of

00:48:31.046 --> 00:48:34.156
this succession idea works, but…

00:48:34.466 --> 00:48:38.036
Chip: I, so I, I, I, I'll tell you,
I've had a different experience

00:48:38.046 --> 00:48:41.446
because my kids are all older.

00:48:41.926 --> 00:48:44.376
I've got an oldest
daughter that works for me.

00:48:45.056 --> 00:48:49.716
So we have a whole lot different
relationship, and she sees me in

00:48:49.716 --> 00:48:53.946
a different level and, and she
travels with me and, and sees me,

00:48:54.006 --> 00:48:58.106
you know, out interacting in the
world and, and being myself, which

00:48:58.116 --> 00:49:01.736
is a whole lot different than, than
what it was when she was growing up.

00:49:02.046 --> 00:49:04.596
I have another daughter who
just works down the hall.

00:49:04.596 --> 00:49:09.626
She, she and my wife run a business
together and, and so she's, she's

00:49:09.636 --> 00:49:15.676
here every day and, and, and so we
have a lot different relationship.

00:49:16.056 --> 00:49:21.746
And, and my youngest daughter is,
she's a woodturner, and so we,

00:49:21.786 --> 00:49:24.146
you know, we do classes together.

00:49:24.146 --> 00:49:27.406
We, we, I, I teach the class,
she assists in the class.

00:49:27.406 --> 00:49:35.776
And, and so it's, it's a, it's a different
way of, of letting some of those roles go.

00:49:35.776 --> 00:49:40.026
But even, even as much as they know me,
you still have to let those roles go.

00:49:40.736 --> 00:49:45.066
You, you'll have to, you have to let those
identities, identities go 'cause you're,

00:49:45.076 --> 00:49:48.776
you're not the authoritarian or you're
not the, you know, the n-, you're not the

00:49:48.776 --> 00:49:50.716
person in charge anymore 'cause, you know?

00:49:50.968 --> 00:49:51.128
Michael: Yeah.

00:49:52.148 --> 00:49:52.408
Yeah.

00:49:52.516 --> 00:49:54.456
Chip: How many times, how many
times have your kids said,

00:49:54.776 --> 00:49:55.736
"You're not the boss of me"?

00:49:56.400 --> 00:49:57.440
Michael: Right, right.

00:49:57.640 --> 00:50:00.950
And as they get older, it's,
it takes on new meaning.

00:50:00.950 --> 00:50:01.220
But

00:50:01.480 --> 00:50:01.990
Chip: That's right.

00:50:02.030 --> 00:50:02.480
Michael: I agree with you.

00:50:02.480 --> 00:50:06.180
I think that you do have to let
go, but I think your kids also

00:50:06.180 --> 00:50:07.190
have to let go, too, right?

00:50:07.630 --> 00:50:10.720
They can't just hang on to that notion
that you are always going to be that same

00:50:10.720 --> 00:50:16.030
person you were when you were 40 than you
are when you are, say, 50 or 60, whatever.

00:50:16.030 --> 00:50:17.500
Like, you do change also, right?

00:50:17.500 --> 00:50:21.450
So it, and their identity as a
result can also potentially change.

00:50:22.128 --> 00:50:22.368
Chip: Yep.

00:50:22.368 --> 00:50:22.458
Yeah.

00:50:22.988 --> 00:50:25.318
Yeah, I'm so glad I'm not
the same person I was at 40.

00:50:27.544 --> 00:50:28.314
Michael: Yeah, I hear you.

00:50:29.344 --> 00:50:31.194
I probably have the same, same feeling.

00:50:31.194 --> 00:50:34.494
So I'll go from the, the super
serious to the super not so serious.

00:50:34.984 --> 00:50:38.474
Go to the speed rounds, five quick
questions starting with what's the first

00:50:38.474 --> 00:50:40.134
kids show theme song that comes to mind?

00:50:40.672 --> 00:50:44.162
Chip: God, this is gonna
date me like crazy, but it's

00:50:44.162 --> 00:50:46.062
the Andy Griffith sh-, and,

00:50:46.064 --> 00:50:46.394
Michael: Okay.

00:50:46.882 --> 00:50:51.862
Chip: you know, Andy Griffith, that,
that show tune actually has words to

00:50:51.862 --> 00:50:53.582
it that they put on into it later.

00:50:53.852 --> 00:50:56.482
But who, who can forget the iconic
da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.

00:50:57.812 --> 00:50:57.992
Yeah.

00:51:01.480 --> 00:51:03.320
Michael: Yeah, now it's going to be
stuck in my head, so thank you for that.

00:51:04.130 --> 00:51:04.920
What was your…

00:51:04.992 --> 00:51:06.602
Chip: That's, that's
your earworm for the day.

00:51:07.060 --> 00:51:07.580
Michael: That's right.

00:51:07.860 --> 00:51:08.970
What was your very first job?

00:51:10.394 --> 00:51:13.764
Chip: That's a job that doesn't exist
anymore is, is delivering papers.

00:51:14.478 --> 00:51:14.768
Michael: Okay, very cool.

00:51:15.174 --> 00:51:18.414
Chip: I think I was, I think I
was in fifth grade when, when

00:51:18.414 --> 00:51:19.614
I started delivering papers.

00:51:20.102 --> 00:51:20.462
Michael: Oh, wow.

00:51:21.192 --> 00:51:21.342
Wow.

00:51:21.762 --> 00:51:23.942
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:51:23.942 --> 00:51:25.722
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:51:26.536 --> 00:51:28.586
Chip: Yeah, this was,
this was a tough one.

00:51:28.586 --> 00:51:31.176
I think, I think it has to
be a T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:51:31.824 --> 00:51:32.334
Michael: Why is that?

00:51:32.726 --> 00:51:35.586
Chip: Well, because I
was thinking about it.

00:51:35.706 --> 00:51:39.756
You know, a, a, a toddler-sized
T-Rex is still gonna be dangerous.

00:51:39.756 --> 00:51:42.426
I mean, they're still gonna, they're
still gonna bite up your ankles.

00:51:42.886 --> 00:51:43.416
You know?

00:51:43.546 --> 00:51:49.726
A, a, a T-Rex-sized toddler may
not understand what they're doing,

00:51:50.768 --> 00:51:51.148
Michael: Right.

00:51:51.426 --> 00:51:53.726
Chip: but I don't think that they're mean.

00:51:55.016 --> 00:51:55.456
Michael: Right.

00:51:56.036 --> 00:51:57.586
Yeah, that's, that's a fair point.

00:51:58.176 --> 00:51:58.406
Chip: What's

00:51:58.406 --> 00:52:00.956
Michael: your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:52:01.320 --> 00:52:03.700
Chip: You know, the, the one,
speaking of earworms, I've

00:52:03.710 --> 00:52:05.030
had this earworm for a while.

00:52:05.030 --> 00:52:08.030
In fact, I'm, I'm writing my, I'm
writing the next book on that.

00:52:08.900 --> 00:52:12.680
It's "Dancing in the Eye,"
or it's actually called "The

00:52:12.680 --> 00:52:15.080
Eye" by, by Brandi Carlile.

00:52:15.600 --> 00:52:15.970
Michael: Okay.

00:52:16.310 --> 00:52:19.430
Chip: And, and it's got a great refrain.

00:52:19.430 --> 00:52:22.870
It's, it's, "You can dance in a hurricane,
but only if you're standing in the eye."

00:52:23.938 --> 00:52:24.178
Michael: Huh.

00:52:25.290 --> 00:52:26.960
Chip: It, it is, look it up.

00:52:26.970 --> 00:52:28.130
It's, it's a great song.

00:52:28.170 --> 00:52:31.600
And, and that, that inspired
me to write the wor-, the book

00:52:31.600 --> 00:52:32.670
that I'm working on right now.

00:52:33.658 --> 00:52:34.068
Michael: Very cool.

00:52:34.278 --> 00:52:36.638
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:52:36.638 --> 00:52:38.398
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:52:39.600 --> 00:52:40.380
Chip: What's the weirdest thing?

00:52:42.440 --> 00:52:42.960
God.

00:52:43.690 --> 00:52:47.016
I've been thinking about this one,
and I, I can't, I can't really

00:52:47.056 --> 00:52:51.036
think of a weird thing that I've
carried around in my pockets.

00:52:52.706 --> 00:52:55.406
You know, it, it could be golf
tees, but that's not weird.

00:52:57.196 --> 00:52:59.436
You know, could be golf tees
when you're at the office,

00:52:59.506 --> 00:53:00.916
and that, that would be weird.

00:53:01.316 --> 00:53:01.626
Michael: Yeah.

00:53:02.786 --> 00:53:03.256
Chip: You know?

00:53:04.316 --> 00:53:08.696
I, I carry a pocket knife most
of the time, and, and that isn't

00:53:08.706 --> 00:53:10.446
really good when you go through TSA,

00:53:10.854 --> 00:53:11.204
Michael: No.

00:53:12.086 --> 00:53:13.766
Chip: so they would consider that weird.

00:53:14.304 --> 00:53:14.584
Michael: Yeah.

00:53:15.656 --> 00:53:21.146
Chip: Yeah, I, I, I really, you know,
pastrami sandwich, that would be weird.

00:53:22.056 --> 00:53:22.786
Michael: In your pocket?

00:53:23.006 --> 00:53:23.356
Chip: Yeah, in the pocket?

00:53:23.356 --> 00:53:25.626
Yeah, in my pocket or,
or briefcase or bag.

00:53:25.926 --> 00:53:26.676
Michael: Or bag, yeah.

00:53:26.966 --> 00:53:27.356
Chip: Yeah.

00:53:27.916 --> 00:53:29.526
But in your pocket, that would be weird.

00:53:30.446 --> 00:53:30.896
Michael: It would be.

00:53:30.896 --> 00:53:32.636
Or in your briefcase or bag, I suppose.

00:53:33.386 --> 00:53:35.176
I guess it depends how long
it's been sitting there, too.

00:53:36.706 --> 00:53:39.716
But Chip, before we wrap up, for
people who connected with your, your

00:53:39.716 --> 00:53:42.516
message today, want to learn more
about your work or your books or

00:53:42.516 --> 00:53:44.596
anything else you're building right
now, where would you point them?

00:53:44.786 --> 00:53:45.276
Where should they go?

00:53:45.800 --> 00:53:46.090
Chip: Yeah.

00:53:46.370 --> 00:53:48.580
My website is scholzandassociates.com.

00:53:48.580 --> 00:53:50.380
I'm sure you're gonna put
that in the show notes.

00:53:50.390 --> 00:53:54.700
And you can reach me at
chip@scholzandassociates.com.

00:53:54.700 --> 00:53:55.990
Just send me an email.

00:53:55.990 --> 00:53:56.720
I'd love to talk.

00:53:57.260 --> 00:54:00.030
And my books are on Amazon.

00:54:00.360 --> 00:54:06.020
They're also audiobooks and, you know,
your favorite audiobook platform.

00:54:06.020 --> 00:54:11.480
It's, it's probably on Spotify and, and
audiobooks.com and barnesandnoble.com

00:54:11.490 --> 00:54:12.690
and Kobo and that kind of thing.

00:54:12.690 --> 00:54:14.120
So that's it.

00:54:15.052 --> 00:54:15.372
Michael: Awesome.

00:54:15.372 --> 00:54:15.952
I appreciate that.

00:54:16.002 --> 00:54:20.282
Chip, thanks so much again for
joining me today and having

00:54:20.282 --> 00:54:21.262
this conversation with me.

00:54:21.262 --> 00:54:25.462
I appreciate the perspective
you bring 'cause it's grounded

00:54:25.482 --> 00:54:27.682
in lived experience, right?

00:54:27.692 --> 00:54:30.312
Like, you've been doing this for a while.

00:54:30.322 --> 00:54:36.052
You, you've k-, you've had to figure
out, like, does work-life balance exist?

00:54:36.052 --> 00:54:38.252
What do these different areas mean?

00:54:38.262 --> 00:54:43.792
And your experience is appreciated
more than, like, the theory of it.

00:54:43.792 --> 00:54:48.202
It's so easy to talk about this stuff,
but it's not easy to talk, it, it's

00:54:48.212 --> 00:54:54.102
more valuable, to me at least, when
it's you've lived through it, right?

00:54:54.102 --> 00:54:56.062
And you've had that experience,
you know kind of what works,

00:54:56.062 --> 00:54:57.352
what doesn't for you at least.

00:54:57.832 --> 00:55:02.112
And I think a lot of dads are gonna see
themselves in, in what you talked about

00:55:02.112 --> 00:55:03.552
today and some of the lessons you share.

00:55:03.782 --> 00:55:04.972
So I appreciate you chatting with me.

00:55:04.972 --> 00:55:05.582
Thank you again.

00:55:05.582 --> 00:55:08.002
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:55:08.002 --> 00:55:10.932
find yourself in between navigating
a season that feels different,

00:55:11.182 --> 00:55:13.882
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:55:14.162 --> 00:55:17.102
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:55:17.142 --> 00:55:18.402
and what really matters right now.

00:55:18.792 --> 00:55:21.142
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:55:21.142 --> 00:55:22.122
dad who might need to hear it.

00:55:22.712 --> 00:55:24.102
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:55:24.112 --> 00:55:26.402
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.