Chris Woods on Overcoming Fear as a Working Dad

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Chris: Say it out loud, like what's
the thing that you're afraid of?

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And they're like, "Okay, there's no
shame in that." And then what I also

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then try to encourage guys particularly
is, 'cause I've been the same way,

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is I would catastrophize things.

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I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if that happens,
then everything's gonna fall apart, and

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I'm gonna be destitute, and my family's
gonna hate me," and all this other stuff.

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So, I then encourage, it's like, alright,
based on this thing, if I'm spending

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too much time with my family, I think,
am I, you know, what if I lose my job?

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And like, okay, so we're gonna, first
off, before we attack and do all the

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things we're gonna do to make sure that
that doesn't happen, let's just run

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through it without catastrophizing.

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So say that happened, say you lost a job.

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What would happen then?

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And then they're like, "Oh
my God, everything would fall

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apart." And I'm like, "Really?

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Would it?"

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today I'm excited to

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welcome Chris Woods to the show.

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Chris has lived both sides of success.

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He grew up in a tough part of Boston
and worked his way into high-level

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leadership roles, including at Google.

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From the outside, it looked
like he had it figured out.

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Career, momentum, the kind of
life a lot of people are chasing.

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But underneath that,
something wasn't lining up.

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And then at 40 years old,
everything came to a stop.

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He flatlined in a hospital bed.

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And that's not a metaphor, it's
not burnout, not a bad quarter.

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He flatlined, and when you come
back from something like that,

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you don't just go back to normal.

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You start asking different questions about
what you're building, why you're building

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it, what it's costing you along the way.

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And that moment became a turning point
for the work he does today, helping

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people stop operating from fear and
start building lives that actually

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feel the way they're supposed to.

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Chris, I'm really looking
forward to this conversation.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Chris: Thanks very much for having me.

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I'm looking forward to it as well.

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Michael: My pleasure.

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So, I want to start with the moment
that changed everything for you.

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Take me back to that moment at 40.

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When you flatlined, what did it
force you to see that you had

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been avoiding up to that point?

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Chris: So, what I always tell people, it
wasn't like I woke up from the flatline.

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Well, I did wake up and like, you know,
I was surrounded by a lot of doctors in

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a hospital room, and they were like, you
know, "Mr. Woods, we just brought you

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back after, you know, you were flatlined
for a minute and four seconds." It really

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then kicked off a, a process for me.

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So it wasn't like I just woke up
and then had a different mindset.

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And what I say to everybody is it
gave me an opportunity because they

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were like, "Listen, we're installing
a pacemaker." Let me back up.

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It ended up being cardiac Lyme disease,
which I had contracted, and then it

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tried to kill me, but fortunately,
I was in, you know, I was in the

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hospital, and they, they saved me.

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So they ended up installing a
pacemaker to safeguard against

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anything crazy happening in the future.

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So they said, you know, "You'll probably
have another 40 or 50 years." So I used

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that as an opportunity to say, "Well,
how do I wanna spend these next 40 or

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50 years?" And it really kicked off an
introspective process that really had

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me uncover two things, and those are the
things I talk about the most, is, one,

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gaining awareness around the fears that
you have that are really holding you back.

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They may be on the outside, you
know, they're pushing you forward

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and you're achieving despite them.

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But I try to give people an opportunity
that they don't have to flatline

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in a bed at 40 to be able to take
a different look at those things.

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And the other part of it is
taking a real close look at your

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strengths and your gifts and how
much of them you're actually using.

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And so I use those two things
to kinda kick off a change.

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Michael: Right.

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I appreciate how you point out that
it's not, it wasn't like you woke

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up, and yes, your life had changed,
right, 'cause now you have a pacemaker

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and, you know, there's probably, you
know, recovery elements around that.

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So, like, you didn't just like go back
to work that, you know, later that day.

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But you were able to, in that
time, come to a realization, right?

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It wasn't just like, it didn't
just hit you the moment you woke

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up, but it was, "Okay, now I've
presented all this information.

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I've had a chance to process it." It's
like, "What do I want to do next?"

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Before that moment, though, before
you flatlined, from the outside, from

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what I understand, everything, you
know, seemed successful for you, but

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something maybe felt off on the inside.

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What do you think was feeling off that you
couldn't quite name before you flatlined?

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Chris: I think it was because I adopted
a, a motivation of fear early on.

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So, you know, you mentioned I, I
grew up in a tough area of Boston.

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My dad also died when I was two, so
he, he woke up, my mom went to wake

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him up in the bed and, and he was dead.

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So, she ended up having to just
take odd jobs to, to make ends meet.

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So I think I internalized that and was
like, "Alright, so maybe I don't have

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as much time as other people have."
And also, life is a really scary thing.

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I'm going to work very hard and
achieve and try to then, you know show

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that I can overcome disadvantages.

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So I used that as kind of fear.

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And, you know, fear takes a lot of
different forms, and I had a lot of anger

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and I had, you know, a, a lot of different
things that all roll up into fear.

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And so that served as motivation and
drive for me, and then, you know,

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was able to achieve a lot of success.

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Became a dad and was raising daughters
who are now 25 and 21 and, and, you

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know, very successful in their own way.

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But I was doing all of these things
kind of based on old wiring and

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programming that started early,
and I never really looked at it.

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It just, you know, it was what I
had and what I chose to work with.

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And, you know, it seemed, as you had
said, on the outside, always seemed to

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be working, but I knew I was running, you
know not on joy and not really on feeling

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good or confident on a day-to-day basis.

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It was always like, "Oh boy, what
disaster is going to happen today?"

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Michael: Right.

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You were more reactionary, would you
say, in that time, and now you are

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more proactive in terms of choosing
the direction you want to go.

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Chris: Yeah, I think that's right, and
I think also one of the things I learned

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as part of it is to practice gratitude,
because the way that you kinda program

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yourself to view the world is the way the
world will then present itself to you.

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And mine was definitely more
fear-driven, so seeing everything

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kind of coming in as a threat.

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Whereas if you can turn that mindset
more towards gratitude and then also

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seeing things as opportunities, that
it's not all on me that everything if,

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if I mess up one thing, everything's
going to come crashing down.

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Michael: Right.

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Th-, there's a lot I
want to break down there.

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The fear element, the gratitude element.

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Let, let's start with the, the
fear element here for a second,

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'cause, you know, you mentioned that

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a lot of the fear was of time, I think,
of just like you thought you had a limited

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amount of time, and we all do, right?

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We only live for so long, right?

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Life is not infinite, unfortunately.

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So there was that overarching fear
of like, okay, how am I gonna make

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the most of what limited time I have?

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But I feel like there were other
fears that, you know, come and go.

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Like, and as you became a dad, like
new fears get introduced to you.

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Chris: For sure.

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Michael: Like, are your
kids going to be okay?

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Are they gonna turn out well?

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Or is something gonna happen?

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Like, there's all sorts of different
fears that we can react to, right?

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And, and I want to get to like how to
address those fears, like in your talk of

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using gratitude and, you know, choosing
the, the way you want to live your life,

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but I'm curious, like, what fears, not
only that you have experienced, but maybe

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some of your, your clients or people
you, you've worked with have experienced.

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What are those, what are the quieter
fears that the dads that are trying to

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succeed both at work and at home, what
are some of those quieter fears that

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we carry beyond just like this limited
amount of time that we have on Earth?

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Chris: What I see a lot is there's fear
one thing when you're starting off in your

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20s and your fear like am, am I going to
make it and are things going to work out?

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But I also then find, have found with
me and with my clients in their 30s

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and in their 40s, is that when they
are now achieving, you know, and they

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still have upward trajectory goals, but
they are raising a family and they have

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all these things, it becomes more of a
fear of loss than anything else, right?

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So it's a fear of what if I this upward
trajectory that it seems like I'm

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on flat lines or then turns around.

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And so that becomes a thing that once
you get to a point where you've got

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things, quote unquote, "to lose,"
that becomes a predominant fear.

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And it relates to both work, it
relates to family, it relates to status

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and all of these things, and it's
completely understandable, it's natural.

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And, you know, you end up taking
on responsibilities as a dad and a

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provider and all these other things.

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So it, it makes all the sense in the
world that those things would seep

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into your brain, and more than seep in,
become predominant in, in a lot of ways.

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And so what I always say, they always
kinda teach you in coaching, is

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acknowledge and validate, is like I
acknowledge that feeling, and it's

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completely understandable because it is.

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So what I then try to do is, speaking
then from experience, because I'm now

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56 years old, I've got a 25-year-old
who's graduating from medical

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school this week, becomes a doctor
officially, and then my youngest just

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graduated from college last week.

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And so I've got two thriving
young adults, and I realize

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I'm at a different stage now.

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Michael: Yep.

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Chris: But what I also see is that
I see this as an opportunity to

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be able to speak with men who are
at different earlier stages, and

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knowing that I have lived through it.

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And one of the things I always say
is you don't have to flatline in

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the bed at 40 years old to, you
know, gain the, the value from,

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you know, what I'm able to share.

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So I think that that's right, and getting
back to the idea of the fears and the

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quiet fears that then come around on loss.

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Michael: Yep.

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Chris: I think the way that I've found
it to be most impactful and helpful

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for men is to help them reconnect
not only to gratitude, but a form of

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faith in any way that they have, and
make sure that they feel like they are

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following their own North Star on this.

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What I always say is like, "What are
the three most important things for

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you?" And oftentimes it's, "You know,
I'm gonna be a dad, it's my job, and

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it's my health." And I'm like, "Okay.

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So these are the things that then you've
established are the most important.

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Let's actually structure your life
around that so that you're addressing

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that, because in times of anxiety, you
can say, 'These are the three things

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I said are most important, and I know
I'm doing everything I can for them.'"

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Michael: Right.

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Would you say that fear often temporary,
or is it, I know we're always gonna have

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new fears that come up, but like you
said, the fears in your twenties are

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different than the fears in your thirties
and forties, and do you think it's, fears

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kind of ebb and flow and that's, you
know, whatever you are fearing now may not

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be the same thing you're fearing later?

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Or is it, you know, fear is going to
be there, and you just have to figure

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out ways to manage it, cope with it?

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Chris: So I think fears morph and
change in their outward appearance or

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your internal interpretation of them

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Michael: Sure.

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Chris: over time.

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But another interesting way to,
to look at it, too, is one of

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the things I have my clients take
is a thing called an Enneagram.

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So it's like a personality test, but
it also within it shows how fear shows

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up for you based upon your personality.

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And so there's like four or five
different, you know, archetypes of it.

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And what's r-, really insightful
for it is based upon that sometimes

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people fear different things.

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So some people will fear like a public
embarrassment more than other people fear.

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And then other people don't necessarily
fear public embarrassment, but they

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fear letting others down, for example.

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Michael: Right.

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Chris: So, I do think that they,
the, the representation of them can

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evolve over life stages, but I also
think that what you're afraid of and

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your, your primary fears can alter
by person as well as by personality,

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as well as previous experience and,
you know, life experience of things

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that have instilled that for you.

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And then as you know, like what you
are afraid of or what you love is

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what you look for, and what you're
then, you know, you'll, you'll end

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up seeing that over and over in life.

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Michael: Right.

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Do you, it's interesting that you

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talk about fear morphing, right?

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Fear never, we're always
gonna have some fears, right?

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I think to fear is to
be human, most likely.

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So it's not a matter of
avoiding fear, right?

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It is a matter of how do you control
what you can control, so that you

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can not necessarily overcome your
fears, but work in tandem with them.

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So, like, if you are afraid of losing
your job because you're trying to spend

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more time at home, for example, right?

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It's the, that fear may be more prominent
when your kids are younger, and as they

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grow older and start to go off on their
own, s-, maybe you don't have that same

00:14:00.948 --> 00:14:06.908
type of fear, but there is a fear there
that what parts of that can you control?

00:14:06.908 --> 00:14:11.958
You can control k-, sort of how much
you work and the quality of work that

00:14:11.958 --> 00:14:16.008
you put in, but you can also control how
much time you spend at home and how much

00:14:16.008 --> 00:14:21.388
time you spend with your spouse, with
your friends, with your kids, and how do

00:14:21.388 --> 00:14:22.938
you kind of make those things flexible.

00:14:22.938 --> 00:14:26.488
So, the, from what I'm gathering
from what you're saying is

00:14:26.488 --> 00:14:28.218
that fear is going to be there.

00:14:28.228 --> 00:14:36.238
It's how you control what you
can that you can, that fear

00:14:36.238 --> 00:14:38.248
doesn't lead you, but you lead it.

00:14:38.293 --> 00:14:38.683
Chris: Yeah.

00:14:39.293 --> 00:14:40.403
I think that's dead on.

00:14:40.493 --> 00:14:43.973
And so what I'll, as they say like
in poker, I'll see you and raise you.

00:14:44.213 --> 00:14:46.203
So I'll, like I'll see you on that.

00:14:46.233 --> 00:14:49.393
And the thing I'll say in
addition to it is, sure, fear

00:14:49.393 --> 00:14:50.253
is always going to be there.

00:14:50.253 --> 00:14:53.523
And what I mention even in my book,
I call fear is the OG, so it's been

00:14:53.523 --> 00:14:57.758
around forever and it serves a real
purpose, you know, to keep us safe.

00:14:58.258 --> 00:15:02.808
And it, you know, it, it helped
our ancestors get their genes into

00:15:02.808 --> 00:15:05.498
the next generation, which is the
reason that wh-, why we're here.

00:15:06.308 --> 00:15:09.518
So a couple of things around fear that
I always recommend people have, if

00:15:09.648 --> 00:15:12.348
there's something around that, like say
for… as a recurring one, like, "Oh

00:15:12.348 --> 00:15:13.668
my goodness, what if I lose my job?"

00:15:14.798 --> 00:15:18.158
Instead of just telling people, "Just
don't think about it," what I always try

00:15:18.158 --> 00:15:21.528
to encourage is like, let's bring it out
into the light and let's put a flashlight

00:15:21.528 --> 00:15:25.888
on it, because fears, when they're left
unaddressed, and a lot of times I find

00:15:25.888 --> 00:15:29.038
this with guys, and this, frankly, is
the reason why I wrote my book and called

00:15:29.038 --> 00:15:32.858
it Balls and Brains, is that it's an
attention grabber for men who otherwise

00:15:32.858 --> 00:15:34.168
don't wanna talk about this stuff, right?

00:15:34.288 --> 00:15:35.588
Michael: Right.

00:15:35.648 --> 00:15:37.588
Chris: And it gives them an accessible
point to be able to do this.

00:15:38.098 --> 00:15:42.858
So what I say on this is actually look
at it and, and say it out loud, like

00:15:42.858 --> 00:15:44.208
what's the thing that you're afraid of?

00:15:44.208 --> 00:15:45.708
And you're like, okay,
there's no shame in that.

00:15:45.978 --> 00:15:50.258
And then what I also then try to
encourage guys, particularly, is,

00:15:50.508 --> 00:15:53.428
'cause I've been the same way,
is I would catastrophize things.

00:15:53.708 --> 00:15:56.598
I'm like, "Oh my gosh, if that happens,
then everything's gonna fall apart, and

00:15:56.598 --> 00:15:59.388
I'm gonna be destitute, and my family's
gonna hate me," and all this other stuff.

00:15:59.988 --> 00:16:03.708
So I then encourage is like, or based
on this thing, if I'm spending too

00:16:03.708 --> 00:16:06.018
much time with my family, I think, am
I… you know, what if I lose my job?

00:16:06.608 --> 00:16:10.358
And like, okay, so we're gonna, first
off, before we attack, do all the

00:16:10.358 --> 00:16:12.978
things we're gonna do to make sure that
that doesn't happen, let's just run

00:16:12.978 --> 00:16:14.508
through it without catastrophizing.

00:16:14.788 --> 00:16:17.248
So say that happened, say you lost
a job, what would happen then?

00:16:17.728 --> 00:16:19.618
And then they're like, "Oh
my God, everything would fall

00:16:19.618 --> 00:16:20.378
apart." And I'm like, "Really?

00:16:20.378 --> 00:16:20.728
Would it?"

00:16:21.138 --> 00:16:24.478
And then we just, you know, talk it
through, and being able to then put

00:16:24.478 --> 00:16:27.538
that into light as if it's actually
hap-, actually happened is like, you

00:16:27.538 --> 00:16:29.948
would get through it, and there's a
way we could get through it, okay?

00:16:29.978 --> 00:16:30.408
So that's good.

00:16:30.758 --> 00:16:35.438
And so then it, it kinda reduces, lowers
your shoulders and reduces the fear on it.

00:16:35.438 --> 00:16:38.348
And then another thing I then try to
recommend people do is like, say that

00:16:38.348 --> 00:16:42.768
even happened, instead of doing a
postmortem on it, let's do a pre-mortem.

00:16:43.278 --> 00:16:44.728
Why would that have happened?

00:16:45.538 --> 00:16:48.208
And then they're like, "Well, I would've
been slacking off at work," or, "My

00:16:48.208 --> 00:16:50.818
boss would've been pissed that I was
taking the time off from these things."

00:16:50.858 --> 00:16:54.038
And I was like, "Okay, so have, have
the conversation with the boss ahead

00:16:54.038 --> 00:16:58.668
of time to make sure that this isn't
like you're ma-, imagining it in your

00:16:58.668 --> 00:17:03.278
head that the axe is gonna come the
next time." It's like actually maybe

00:17:03.278 --> 00:17:04.848
have the conversation and say it out.

00:17:04.848 --> 00:17:08.698
So do all the things that you can
to bring it to light as opposed

00:17:08.698 --> 00:17:11.908
to ignoring it, because trying
to push it down doesn't work.

00:17:11.908 --> 00:17:13.458
It actually makes it even stronger.

00:17:14.078 --> 00:17:15.768
So that's the first
thing I'd say about it.

00:17:15.768 --> 00:17:19.438
And then the second thing that I do,
and I mention it also in, in, in my, my

00:17:19.438 --> 00:17:22.858
coaching, is I try to then get people,
when they're thinking about the things

00:17:22.858 --> 00:17:26.718
that, you know, trigger them about
fear, I'm like, "Let's apply that thing

00:17:26.718 --> 00:17:28.798
that they call the TEA framework."

00:17:28.798 --> 00:17:31.308
What's the thought, the
emotion, and then the action.

00:17:31.678 --> 00:17:35.598
So, for example, ones that I used to
have at… when I worked at Google, is

00:17:35.598 --> 00:17:37.398
that when I was doing well, and then
I got to the point where I was like,

00:17:37.398 --> 00:17:40.838
"Oh boy, what if I get exposed that
I'm not really that good?" And so if I

00:17:40.838 --> 00:17:44.818
got a new opportunity, my first thought
was like, "Oh boy, this might expose

00:17:44.818 --> 00:17:46.058
me that I'm not really that good."

00:17:46.398 --> 00:17:48.508
And then the emotion from
that would be anxiety.

00:17:48.913 --> 00:17:51.483
And then the action would
be, I'm gonna avoid this.

00:17:51.483 --> 00:17:53.663
How can I find a way to, like, duck this?

00:17:54.163 --> 00:17:58.663
And so what I then ended up helping myself
through, and again, this is not flipping

00:17:58.663 --> 00:18:03.373
the switch and I'm not hypnotizing people,
but like another thought would be instead

00:18:03.373 --> 00:18:06.863
of like, "Oh my God, this could end
badly," it was like, "This could actually

00:18:06.863 --> 00:18:07.803
be a really good opportunity for me."

00:18:08.233 --> 00:18:12.033
I could, you know, first off, you could
learn things, but you could then be very

00:18:12.033 --> 00:18:15.093
successful, but it could even give you a
promotion, and it's a lot of these things.

00:18:15.303 --> 00:18:18.663
So if that's the thought you have
instead, the emotion's no longer gonna

00:18:18.663 --> 00:18:20.333
be anxiety, it's gonna be excitement.

00:18:20.873 --> 00:18:23.783
And, you know, fear and excitement,
anxiety and excitement are

00:18:23.783 --> 00:18:26.523
essentially the same emotion.

00:18:26.553 --> 00:18:28.363
It's just a different
thought that's triggering it.

00:18:28.813 --> 00:18:32.793
And then lastly, my action, if I'm
excited about it, won't be to avoid

00:18:32.793 --> 00:18:34.323
it, it'll be to actually go into it.

00:18:34.963 --> 00:18:40.473
So it then gives me something to help
me reprogram and rewire my thoughts.

00:18:40.903 --> 00:18:44.263
But you wouldn't be able to do any
of these things before you actually

00:18:44.263 --> 00:18:47.813
gained some awareness around it and
were able to actually talk about

00:18:47.813 --> 00:18:48.753
it and bring it out to the light.

00:18:49.493 --> 00:18:49.623
Michael: Alright.

00:18:49.723 --> 00:18:49.783
Yeah.

00:18:50.213 --> 00:18:53.433
I appreciate that perspective so much
because, like, for me, and I think for

00:18:53.723 --> 00:18:57.873
a lot of dads that I, I talk to, it's,
there's a fear of the unknown, right?

00:18:57.873 --> 00:18:59.713
That is, like, the ultimate fear.

00:18:59.863 --> 00:19:01.243
Like, we don't know what happens,

00:19:01.453 --> 00:19:01.933
Chris: Sure.

00:19:02.103 --> 00:19:02.213
Michael: right?

00:19:02.243 --> 00:19:07.203
And so that makes it so easy for us to,
as you say, catastrophize the situation.

00:19:07.203 --> 00:19:09.463
So it's like, "Oh, am I spending too
much time at home? I might lose my

00:19:09.463 --> 00:19:14.313
job." Well, where does, where does
the logic play into that, 'cause

00:19:14.313 --> 00:19:16.373
right now that's an emotional thing?

00:19:16.683 --> 00:19:17.593
This may happen.

00:19:17.673 --> 00:19:18.043
Chris: Mm-hmm.

00:19:18.433 --> 00:19:19.233
Michael: Why, right?

00:19:19.233 --> 00:19:23.463
Like, like you say, bringing it out,
putting it into the light, and exposing

00:19:23.463 --> 00:19:26.933
it for what it is and being like,
"Okay, this is the actual situation."

00:19:26.993 --> 00:19:27.403
Chris: That's right.

00:19:30.083 --> 00:19:31.423
Michael: Right, and it's, the
vast majority of the time I've

00:19:31.423 --> 00:19:34.653
found that it not catastrophic.

00:19:34.953 --> 00:19:37.773
It's actually pretty normal, right?

00:19:37.783 --> 00:19:38.243
Chris: For sure.

00:19:38.873 --> 00:19:41.763
Michael: It's like, yes, when we do
have kids, we do start spending a

00:19:41.763 --> 00:19:42.903
little bit more time at home, right?

00:19:43.083 --> 00:19:45.553
And our thoughts may differ a little.

00:19:45.553 --> 00:19:49.963
We might not check that email at 11:00 PM
because we're changing a diaper then, or

00:19:49.963 --> 00:19:53.893
we're, you know, trying to help our kids
finish their homework so they can get to

00:19:53.893 --> 00:19:55.413
bed and get up for school in the morning.

00:19:55.413 --> 00:19:58.293
And it's… And that's okay, right?

00:19:58.293 --> 00:19:58.563
Like,

00:19:58.813 --> 00:19:59.213
Chris: For sure.

00:19:59.273 --> 00:20:02.963
Michael: There's an expectation in our
society that we do have lives outside

00:20:02.963 --> 00:20:06.773
of the office, and we do, like, in that
particular case, it's like, okay, yeah,

00:20:06.773 --> 00:20:08.933
why am I making this out to be so bad?

00:20:08.933 --> 00:20:11.463
It's 'cause I hadn't thought
through the logic, right?

00:20:11.463 --> 00:20:16.668
I'm letting emotion lead as
opposed to logic and fact and

00:20:17.168 --> 00:20:20.198
normal order in the system.

00:20:20.928 --> 00:20:26.518
And it is simpler than I think we
make it out to be, 'cause it's so

00:20:26.518 --> 00:20:30.018
easy to fall into the trap of, "Oh,
this is gonna be the worst thing ever.

00:20:30.078 --> 00:20:34.418
I'm, you know, going to fear this." When
in reality it's just like, no, take a

00:20:34.418 --> 00:20:40.598
beat, look at it, and be like, "Oh, that's
all it really is." And, I, so I appreciate

00:20:40.598 --> 00:20:46.318
how you just make that s-seem so, or
not seem, you make it, make me realize

00:20:46.318 --> 00:20:48.878
like, no, it's really a simple process.

00:20:49.168 --> 00:20:50.268
You just have to be
willing to do it, right?

00:20:50.578 --> 00:20:52.338
Chris: That's exactly it.

00:20:52.338 --> 00:20:53.448
So it's the habit, right?

00:20:53.478 --> 00:20:54.748
It's a power of habit.

00:20:54.778 --> 00:20:58.658
And a lot of these things that we've
just grown, and they've grown kind

00:20:58.658 --> 00:21:03.838
of insidi-, insidiously within us,
is that it's, it's fear-driven.

00:21:04.138 --> 00:21:07.918
And so it's a habit that we established
earlier, and that's just the way we think.

00:21:08.158 --> 00:21:11.088
And it seems on the outside to be
working, this, like, fear-driven

00:21:11.088 --> 00:21:12.218
habit that we're having.

00:21:12.628 --> 00:21:16.378
But what I always then say is, "Sure,
it might seem to be, but think about

00:21:16.378 --> 00:21:20.358
how much better life can be if you're
not." So it doesn't… And that's another

00:21:20.358 --> 00:21:24.108
thing that I, I've, I found myself, is
that guys would be like, "Yeah, but if

00:21:24.108 --> 00:21:28.548
I lose this fear-driven, I'm gonna lose
my edge, and then I'm not gonna be as

00:21:28.548 --> 00:21:30.008
successful, I'm not gonna be as driven."

00:21:30.008 --> 00:21:34.268
And I was like, "Again, I think these
are all so outdated concepts," is

00:21:34.268 --> 00:21:36.778
that you can be all of these things.

00:21:36.948 --> 00:21:41.208
It just, it starts with an awareness of
the thoughts that you have that can either

00:21:41.208 --> 00:21:42.638
be your best friend or your worst enemy.

00:21:43.758 --> 00:21:45.088
And so that's what I always say to people.

00:21:45.088 --> 00:21:48.308
So there's one question I always ask
people at the beginning of this, right?

00:21:48.498 --> 00:21:51.008
And, and I always say it's not mine.

00:21:51.078 --> 00:21:52.398
So I, I borrowed it.

00:21:52.738 --> 00:21:55.868
I've adopted it from a guy, Peter
Crone, who's this amazing kinda, like,

00:21:55.868 --> 00:21:59.448
mindset and life coach guy in England.

00:22:00.048 --> 00:22:02.728
And he asks the question, so
I'm a-, I'll say this out loud

00:22:02.728 --> 00:22:04.668
and, and for your audience, too.

00:22:04.698 --> 00:22:08.468
This is, I find the most powerful thing,
is he asks the question: "Who would you

00:22:08.468 --> 00:22:11.618
be in the absence of your concerns?"

00:22:12.808 --> 00:22:13.118
Okay?

00:22:13.368 --> 00:22:18.268
So doesn't ask you what your concerns
are, and he just asks you who you'd be

00:22:18.758 --> 00:22:22.288
in the a-, and the way he phrases it is
great, "In the absence of your concerns."

00:22:23.138 --> 00:22:27.258
And what I love about that question is
because it opens up in your brain and in

00:22:27.258 --> 00:22:35.118
your heart and in your soul a viewpoint
as to who you can and would and will be

00:22:35.578 --> 00:22:37.788
if you can get beyond these things, right?

00:22:38.008 --> 00:22:41.138
And I always then encourage people
is then to write down the stream of

00:22:41.138 --> 00:22:44.878
consciousness that comes, because
that version of you can exist.

00:22:45.238 --> 00:22:49.428
And so what I always then say is use
that as the starting point, is that if,

00:22:49.428 --> 00:22:54.288
like what I was saying is like I'd feel a
lot, you know, freer and, you know, less

00:22:54.328 --> 00:23:00.118
anxious, and I'd take even more risks,
and I would live life more joyfully, and

00:23:00.118 --> 00:23:02.428
I'd take big swings and all these things.

00:23:03.118 --> 00:23:04.388
Michael: Right.

00:23:04.538 --> 00:23:06.788
Chris: And so that's there for you..
No one else planted that in your head.

00:23:07.148 --> 00:23:10.938
That was you responding in your
head to that question that just

00:23:10.938 --> 00:23:12.328
kinda like opens a magic door.

00:23:12.328 --> 00:23:15.558
So I always recommend people
start with that question.

00:23:16.473 --> 00:23:17.143
Michael: I love that.

00:23:17.433 --> 00:23:23.733
I love how the, the question, because
it strips away the concerns, you get

00:23:23.733 --> 00:23:25.123
to skip a step essentially to be like,

00:23:25.123 --> 00:23:25.673
Chris: Isn't that great?

00:23:26.093 --> 00:23:27.278
Michael: right, of like,
"Okay, this is what I,

00:23:27.428 --> 00:23:27.768
Chris: I'm there.

00:23:28.258 --> 00:23:28.298
Yeah.

00:23:28.513 --> 00:23:29.183
Michael: this is what
I want to do," right?

00:23:29.753 --> 00:23:32.013
Ok, then the follow-up
question is then why not?

00:23:33.503 --> 00:23:33.713
Right?

00:23:33.738 --> 00:23:33.818
Chris: There it is.

00:23:33.818 --> 00:23:36.098
And then you'll say, "Well, because
of I'm afraid of this, this, this,

00:23:36.098 --> 00:23:39.118
and this." And be like, "Okay, so
let's bring those into the light."

00:23:39.773 --> 00:23:40.073
Michael: Right.

00:23:40.073 --> 00:23:40.393
Exactly.

00:23:40.393 --> 00:23:42.853
And then how do you address those?

00:23:43.123 --> 00:23:50.793
So, I assume then, you, if you're able to
start identifying what those fears are,

00:23:51.103 --> 00:23:56.563
you know, you had mentioned that one of
the things that you like to do is related

00:23:56.563 --> 00:23:58.893
around the idea of gratitude, right?

00:23:59.173 --> 00:24:03.483
As a way to kind of
manage some of this fear.

00:24:03.923 --> 00:24:06.813
Can you talk to me a little bit
more about what that really means

00:24:06.853 --> 00:24:08.603
to you and sort of how you apply it?

00:24:08.658 --> 00:24:08.988
Chris: Yeah.

00:24:09.348 --> 00:24:10.358
So I'd say it a couple ways.

00:24:10.358 --> 00:24:13.938
One, when you then start just paying
attention to all the things you

00:24:13.938 --> 00:24:17.408
can be grateful for, it brings you
back into the here and now, right?

00:24:17.408 --> 00:24:20.728
And I always say, and I've got it actually
on my wall right there, it says, "Be

00:24:20.728 --> 00:24:25.848
here now." And the whole idea of the
way to best live life and operate at

00:24:25.848 --> 00:24:29.678
work and at home and all those things
is to actually be in that moment.

00:24:30.278 --> 00:24:33.608
And it's very hard in this day and
age, right, because you might be

00:24:33.608 --> 00:24:36.578
somewhere physically, but then your
mind is somewhere else, and that's

00:24:36.578 --> 00:24:37.848
how you miss your life, right?

00:24:38.308 --> 00:24:41.678
So the idea around gratitude, when
you're saying, "I'm gonna practice

00:24:41.678 --> 00:24:45.228
gratitude," it brings you here right
now is to give an inventory of what's

00:24:45.228 --> 00:24:46.738
happening in your life right now.

00:24:47.618 --> 00:24:52.268
And I also think just like habits, right,
and neural pathways that build up, we

00:24:52.268 --> 00:24:56.088
were saying that, you know, they can
be bad habits for us, thought patterns.

00:24:56.438 --> 00:25:01.518
But the more you're, you look to practice
gratitude, start it off once or twice

00:25:01.518 --> 00:25:05.428
a day, first thing in the morning, at
night, it can help rewire your brain.

00:25:05.888 --> 00:25:10.658
And in rewiring your brain, you end up
seeing the world differently, and you

00:25:10.658 --> 00:25:17.678
can evolve away from less seeing things
as they are everything's a threat and

00:25:17.678 --> 00:25:21.818
everything is something to be afraid
of and more about like, "Okay, I've

00:25:21.818 --> 00:25:25.248
seen that, but right now everything's
great, and these are all the things

00:25:25.248 --> 00:25:26.468
that are really good in my life."

00:25:27.118 --> 00:25:32.628
And what I then end up then using that
as a, as a jump off point to what I

00:25:33.018 --> 00:25:37.008
then teach people in terms of how best
to, you know, structure their work

00:25:37.008 --> 00:25:41.048
lives and really their lives, is to
lean in, identify and lean into the

00:25:41.048 --> 00:25:42.318
things that they're really good at.

00:25:42.668 --> 00:25:44.988
Because what you'll find
is it becomes a flywheel.

00:25:44.988 --> 00:25:47.898
If you're doing more of the things that
you're really good at, you'll like it,

00:25:47.898 --> 00:25:50.528
and then you'll do more work at it,
and you'll get better, and you'll get

00:25:50.528 --> 00:25:55.648
more recognition for it, as opposed
to staying in roles and doing things

00:25:55.648 --> 00:26:00.228
that you're not really built for, and
you're grinding, and you're working

00:26:00.228 --> 00:26:02.718
your butt off just to get to average.

00:26:03.238 --> 00:26:06.228
And that's a miserable way
to live if you don't have to.

00:26:06.258 --> 00:26:08.928
So what I always say to people is
approach it like the hierarchy of

00:26:08.928 --> 00:26:10.138
needs, the Maslow thing, right?

00:26:10.138 --> 00:26:12.668
It's like, first off, you need a job
because you need the money and you gotta

00:26:12.668 --> 00:26:13.848
pay the bills and all that other stuff.

00:26:14.348 --> 00:26:17.498
But if you can get yourself the, if
it's not immediately, but at least

00:26:17.498 --> 00:26:21.378
start thinking about a trajectory of
how can you get yourself into thing

00:26:21.378 --> 00:26:24.668
that you're doing more of the things
that you actually enjoy doing, you'll

00:26:24.668 --> 00:26:26.188
find your life works so much better.

00:26:26.218 --> 00:26:28.678
It becomes this, you
know, synergistic way.

00:26:29.008 --> 00:26:32.798
So I always say is like, if you can
reduce the fears that are holding you

00:26:32.798 --> 00:26:36.798
back, identify and then go all in on
the things that you're really good at,

00:26:37.168 --> 00:26:38.678
you'll really feel like you're in flow.

00:26:39.118 --> 00:26:42.358
So when you're, as a parent, when
you're at work, and then every part of

00:26:42.358 --> 00:26:47.188
your life can actually be more of this
authentic version of you, as opposed

00:26:47.188 --> 00:26:52.358
to a stress-driven, compartmentalized,
catastrophic thinking way of

00:26:52.358 --> 00:26:54.138
living your life, which is no fun.

00:26:54.803 --> 00:26:55.603
Michael: No, not at all.

00:26:55.613 --> 00:26:56.433
Not at all.

00:26:57.143 --> 00:27:04.033
The idea that gratitude will,
is a way to create a more

00:27:04.033 --> 00:27:05.623
positive flywheel for you, right?

00:27:05.623 --> 00:27:11.623
It, it's, I like that idea because like
time, we have a limited amount of energy,

00:27:11.758 --> 00:27:12.058
Chris: Mm-hmm.

00:27:12.243 --> 00:27:12.563
Michael: right?

00:27:12.783 --> 00:27:14.853
And so, I mean, that's why we have
to sleep and we have to eat and all

00:27:14.853 --> 00:27:16.113
these things to, to gather energy.

00:27:16.113 --> 00:27:18.073
So it's like you have a
limited amount of energy.

00:27:18.133 --> 00:27:19.463
How do you want to expend that energy?

00:27:19.568 --> 00:27:21.058
Chris: That's right.

00:27:21.123 --> 00:27:27.483
Michael: Do you want to expend it on, in
a defensive posture of kind of, you know,

00:27:27.483 --> 00:27:30.653
just man, trying to deal with your fears?

00:27:30.703 --> 00:27:33.753
Or do you want to spend that on things
that you appreciate and that you

00:27:33.753 --> 00:27:38.833
enjoy and that make you happy, maybe
even bring you energy themselves?

00:27:39.633 --> 00:27:45.503
And with gratitude, that's a way to
expend your energy in a way that brings

00:27:45.503 --> 00:27:52.673
you closer to that realm of happiness,
of positivity, that you get to do the

00:27:52.673 --> 00:27:55.803
things that, you appreciate the things
that you, you do have and you do get to

00:27:55.803 --> 00:28:01.183
do, which then leaves you less energy
to worry about your fears, right?

00:28:01.223 --> 00:28:04.513
So it, it just keeps snowballing
or as you said, like the

00:28:04.513 --> 00:28:06.523
flywheel just keeps spinning.

00:28:07.483 --> 00:28:13.623
It's such a, it's an eas-, again,
it's an easy thing to do if

00:28:13.623 --> 00:28:14.713
we are cognizant of it, right?

00:28:14.713 --> 00:28:15.213
Chris: That's just it.

00:28:15.763 --> 00:28:19.533
Michael: It's so easy to just
take things for granted, take

00:28:19.673 --> 00:28:20.313
what you do have for granted.

00:28:20.363 --> 00:28:21.173
Chris: It's habits.

00:28:21.673 --> 00:28:25.413
So this is what I say all the time,
is that for all of these, exactly

00:28:25.413 --> 00:28:28.683
this conversation we're having and
then all this, the reason why I do

00:28:28.683 --> 00:28:32.243
what I do now is because I've, I've
learned it kind of the hard way and

00:28:32.243 --> 00:28:35.303
now at 56 and, and looking back on it.

00:28:35.303 --> 00:28:40.113
And so I'm like, I can save people maybe
a lot of this kinda hardship on it.

00:28:40.553 --> 00:28:44.613
Because what I'd also say about the
practicing gratitude, someone said this

00:28:44.613 --> 00:28:48.713
to me years ago, maybe I read it, is,
like, think about the universe, about they

00:28:48.713 --> 00:28:50.353
wanna, like, they wanna give you things.

00:28:50.723 --> 00:28:56.123
And if they keep giving you things and
you don't say thank you, they're not

00:28:56.123 --> 00:28:57.663
really gonna wanna keep giving you gifts.

00:28:57.663 --> 00:29:00.853
Like, if you give people gifts and they're
like, "Thank you so much. That was so

00:29:00.903 --> 00:29:04.023
thoughtful," or someone else you keep
giving gifts and they never say thank

00:29:04.023 --> 00:29:06.773
you, you're like, "You know what? I'm
giving these gifts to somebody else."

00:29:07.293 --> 00:29:11.933
And so I love that idea is the more
that you're grateful for, the more the

00:29:11.933 --> 00:29:14.153
universe kinda rewards that mentality.

00:29:14.763 --> 00:29:14.903
Michael: Yeah.

00:29:15.883 --> 00:29:16.153
Love that.

00:29:16.153 --> 00:29:16.613
That's great.

00:29:17.223 --> 00:29:20.293
I, so I want to talk about this
framework that you created: the

00:29:20.293 --> 00:29:21.993
Balls and Brains framework, right?

00:29:22.253 --> 00:29:27.213
It's on your hat, it's your
book, it's, it's a, for you,

00:29:27.213 --> 00:29:29.683
it's like your work, right?

00:29:29.683 --> 00:29:30.633
It's your, your life's work.

00:29:30.633 --> 00:29:34.693
And at a high level, what does
that actually mean in real life

00:29:34.693 --> 00:29:38.193
for someone trying to navigate
work and family and life?

00:29:38.703 --> 00:29:42.013
Chris: So what I say is, you know, it
kinda recaps the conversation we've

00:29:42.013 --> 00:29:47.043
had up until now, is, you know, a lot
of times when people just s-, think

00:29:47.043 --> 00:29:50.353
they need to work harder or they need
to have just better discipline or all

00:29:50.353 --> 00:29:54.303
these other things, just, you know, put
in more effort or more hours or better

00:29:54.303 --> 00:29:55.573
time management and all that stuff.

00:29:56.303 --> 00:30:00.763
And what I say is, like, let's actually
address this at the root first,

00:30:00.813 --> 00:30:01.943
and then we can build it on there.

00:30:02.383 --> 00:30:07.423
So the balls part of it is first
addressing the fears that hold you

00:30:07.423 --> 00:30:12.233
back from being the authentic all-in,
you know, balls-out version of you.

00:30:12.623 --> 00:30:14.003
Michael: Sure.

00:30:14.053 --> 00:30:15.103
Chris: And so that's that question
who you, who would you be in

00:30:15.103 --> 00:30:16.073
the absence of your concerns?

00:30:16.483 --> 00:30:18.973
Because then that, that, you've
answered the question and you're like,

00:30:19.213 --> 00:30:23.303
"That's the guy I'd be." They'd be
like, "Okay, cool." So we know that

00:30:23.303 --> 00:30:24.833
that could be a North Star for us.

00:30:24.863 --> 00:30:29.493
And then the brains part of it is
actually identifying and not just, like,

00:30:29.573 --> 00:30:30.803
you know, you answering the question.

00:30:30.803 --> 00:30:34.523
Let's put a diagnostic against this as
to what you're really good at, right?

00:30:34.523 --> 00:30:37.113
So that's this Clifton
StrengthsFinders that I use.

00:30:37.373 --> 00:30:42.293
And it was given to me, like, near the
end of my career at Google, which made

00:30:42.293 --> 00:30:45.543
me realize, it just put it kind of in
black and white, is when I had joined

00:30:45.543 --> 00:30:47.953
Google initially, it was still early days.

00:30:47.953 --> 00:30:50.103
It was before they bought YouTube,
and we were still evolving.

00:30:50.103 --> 00:30:53.133
So it was up to salespeople like
me to kinda come up with creative

00:30:53.133 --> 00:30:54.563
stuff just to get deals done.

00:30:55.533 --> 00:30:58.213
And then by the end of it, the
company was growing massively.

00:30:58.213 --> 00:31:00.523
And as you know, when it's that
big, you need to have structure and

00:31:00.523 --> 00:31:03.423
frameworks, and people just need
to stay in their job and do that

00:31:03.423 --> 00:31:05.043
because there's 180,000 people there.

00:31:05.663 --> 00:31:07.003
And I was like, "This is less me.

00:31:07.003 --> 00:31:10.903
This is less me being in this contained
thing." But this Clifton StrengthsFinder,

00:31:10.903 --> 00:31:14.293
amongst the things they told me,
they're like, "You 100% should be in

00:31:14.333 --> 00:31:19.023
either entrepreneurial environments
or turnarounds." So I initially left

00:31:19.023 --> 00:31:21.903
and did an entrepreneurial one, and
then got recruited to do turnarounds,

00:31:21.903 --> 00:31:24.783
just to turn companies around, go
in and, and fix these companies,

00:31:25.643 --> 00:31:27.443
because it leaned into my strengths.

00:31:28.113 --> 00:31:31.403
And so that's what I say to people
is the first two steps on it, we

00:31:31.403 --> 00:31:32.613
gotta start with the foundation.

00:31:32.733 --> 00:31:34.073
What's holding you back fear-wise?

00:31:34.323 --> 00:31:37.983
And then secondly, let's get a real clear
thing on what you're really good at and

00:31:37.983 --> 00:31:39.253
how much of that are you actually doing.

00:31:39.253 --> 00:31:39.923
Michael: Yep.

00:31:40.033 --> 00:31:43.123
Chris: And then so from that,
we then reset your goals.

00:31:43.593 --> 00:31:46.183
They could be very different than the
ones you had before we started this

00:31:46.183 --> 00:31:49.523
process, 'cause you were building them
maybe based on an outdated version of you.

00:31:50.123 --> 00:31:52.983
And now that's gonna be the goals, and
then here's the hard part, and this

00:31:52.983 --> 00:31:56.913
is the thing I mentioned before, is
that then we need to address mindset

00:31:56.913 --> 00:32:01.193
changes and daily habit changes, because
that's where it actually comes down.

00:32:01.513 --> 00:32:04.633
So for all of the things that have been
holding you back, and you mentioned them

00:32:04.633 --> 00:32:06.903
before, that I say that those are habits.

00:32:07.123 --> 00:32:08.143
Those are habits of thought.

00:32:08.143 --> 00:32:08.953
That's mindset.

00:32:09.833 --> 00:32:13.543
And they were established with
no real, you know, discipline

00:32:13.543 --> 00:32:14.573
or strategy behind it.

00:32:14.943 --> 00:32:18.103
If we can readdress this based
upon your goals now that we have

00:32:18.103 --> 00:32:20.783
an awareness of the fears that were
holding you back and what you should

00:32:20.783 --> 00:32:25.743
be do-, leaning more into, that's how
you lead a, a better all-around life.

00:32:27.453 --> 00:32:30.693
Michael: What was it, what did it
feel like when you left Google and

00:32:30.693 --> 00:32:34.123
then you went to, to, you went the
entrepreneurial route, you went the

00:32:34.123 --> 00:32:38.773
turnaround route because those were
more aligned with your strengths.

00:32:39.433 --> 00:32:41.383
How did that, what was the feeling like?

00:32:41.383 --> 00:32:44.123
Was it, how much different was it
than when you were working at Google?

00:32:45.463 --> 00:32:46.823
Chris: It was a lot riskier.

00:32:46.823 --> 00:32:48.463
Like, I knew it was a lot riskier, right?

00:32:48.463 --> 00:32:50.703
And a lot of people that I, and
after I left, they're like, "What?

00:32:50.703 --> 00:32:51.883
What would you do that for?" Right?

00:32:51.883 --> 00:32:54.463
Like, I know a lot of people who are
still there at Google who, like, stayed

00:32:54.463 --> 00:32:55.583
there their whole lives, and that's great.

00:32:56.413 --> 00:32:58.883
But I knew that that
just wasn't who I was.

00:32:58.883 --> 00:33:02.163
I'm not somebody who can just
rest and vest, as they said.

00:33:02.623 --> 00:33:07.703
And so I knew that it was
going to be pluses and minuses.

00:33:08.023 --> 00:33:11.223
And the pluses was that it was going
to be more, you know, in tune with

00:33:11.223 --> 00:33:13.523
who I am and play to my strengths.

00:33:13.893 --> 00:33:16.923
But the minuses would be like, you know,
if things weren't going well, I'd be like,

00:33:16.923 --> 00:33:19.113
"Man, why did I leave that big, safe gig?"

00:33:19.533 --> 00:33:27.303
So it was more like staying true to
the reason why I did it, and that's

00:33:27.303 --> 00:33:28.663
made all the difference in the world.

00:33:28.733 --> 00:33:32.403
And I'm so grateful that I actually
not only did it, but that I actually

00:33:32.403 --> 00:33:33.873
had the experience beforehand.

00:33:33.873 --> 00:33:37.443
So when I have conversations with people
who are at various stages of their

00:33:37.443 --> 00:33:41.693
lives, I can give them an informed
perspective as opposed to I'm just

00:33:41.693 --> 00:33:43.303
this theoretical guy who's full of.

00:33:43.353 --> 00:33:44.383
Michael: Right.

00:33:44.523 --> 00:33:44.943
Exactly.

00:33:44.943 --> 00:33:46.303
Experience trumps all else.

00:33:46.303 --> 00:33:47.233
Chris: Yeah.

00:33:47.433 --> 00:33:51.683
Michael: Right, you can't, there, you
can't learn experience through a book,

00:33:51.738 --> 00:33:51.908
Chris: That's right.

00:33:51.908 --> 00:33:52.423
Exactly.

00:33:52.423 --> 00:33:52.503
Michael: right?

00:33:52.503 --> 00:33:53.263
You have to experience it.

00:33:53.428 --> 00:33:54.758
Chris: So th-, that's what it is.

00:33:54.808 --> 00:33:58.538
So it's like I'm here to not just, you
know, bore people with my story, but

00:33:58.538 --> 00:34:03.928
it's more to, like, inform and help them
w-, apply it to their own lives, to help

00:34:03.928 --> 00:34:05.858
them find what's really real for them.

00:34:06.108 --> 00:34:10.578
And what I always say, and I haven't
mentioned this enough, is that it's

00:34:10.618 --> 00:34:12.878
about evolution as opposed to revolution.

00:34:12.928 --> 00:34:15.548
So when we have these conversations,
it's not them saying you're

00:34:15.548 --> 00:34:16.538
gonna blow your life up.

00:34:16.598 --> 00:34:17.398
It's like you're not doing it.

00:34:17.398 --> 00:34:19.768
Particularly your audience has kids
at home, and you're not gonna do that.

00:34:20.348 --> 00:34:23.968
It's more just like once you establish
that kind of North Star that might be

00:34:23.968 --> 00:34:27.338
a little different than the trajectory
you're currently on, let's start

00:34:27.338 --> 00:34:34.058
mapping a thoughtful evolution towards
it as opposed to a very potentially

00:34:34.058 --> 00:34:35.838
damaging, destructive revolution.

00:34:37.063 --> 00:34:41.693
Michael: Right, and your experience, you
don't know what you like and don't like

00:34:41.703 --> 00:34:44.903
until you experience those things, right?

00:34:45.128 --> 00:34:46.598
Chris: Sure.

00:34:47.198 --> 00:34:50.078
Michael: So, you don't, you didn't
know what it was gonna be like to,

00:34:50.128 --> 00:34:54.388
yes, your personality test said,
yes, you would like turnaround, like

00:34:55.018 --> 00:34:55.328
Chris: managing

00:34:55.328 --> 00:34:55.998
Michael: a turnaround.

00:34:56.228 --> 00:34:58.538
You didn't know until you did it, right?

00:34:58.538 --> 00:35:00.588
But then you did it and you're
like, "Okay, there are things I

00:35:00.598 --> 00:35:00.778
Chris: Exactly right.

00:35:00.828 --> 00:35:02.038
Michael: like about this,
things I don't like about

00:35:02.048 --> 00:35:02.058
Chris: Mm-hmm.

00:35:02.158 --> 00:35:02.528
Michael: this," right?

00:35:03.028 --> 00:35:06.828
But you don't know what those are
until you've, gone through it.

00:35:06.978 --> 00:35:07.258
Chris: Yeah.

00:35:07.318 --> 00:35:14.368
Michael: But then you can start to, the
more you experience, the more knowledge

00:35:14.548 --> 00:35:19.588
and wisdom you have to figure out what
are the things that drive my fears and

00:35:19.588 --> 00:35:24.738
what are the things that will allow
me to move past those fears, right?

00:35:24.738 --> 00:35:28.248
You don't know what you don't
know until you've experienced it.

00:35:28.288 --> 00:35:32.938
And then once you have, it's like,
okay, I know that, you know, doing

00:35:32.938 --> 00:35:38.098
spreadsheets all day is gonna cause
anxiety, so I need to, you know, I didn't

00:35:38.098 --> 00:35:38.938
know that until I got a finance job.

00:35:38.988 --> 00:35:40.418
Chris: That's right.

00:35:40.498 --> 00:35:44.498
Yeah.

00:35:44.548 --> 00:35:44.878
Michael: I got a finance job.

00:35:44.878 --> 00:35:45.658
It's like, well, okay, spreadsheets aren't
my thing, so I need to find work where I

00:35:45.658 --> 00:35:46.388
can kind of reduce some of that stress.

00:35:46.388 --> 00:35:50.128
And, you know, spreadsheets aren't my
thing, but I love talking to other people,

00:35:50.128 --> 00:35:53.158
so maybe I need to, you know, go more
the, the sales route, or I need to go

00:35:53.158 --> 00:35:55.508
in a creative, you know, find a, a more

00:35:55.508 --> 00:35:56.088
creative role.

00:35:56.088 --> 00:35:56.958
And, yes, in

00:35:56.958 --> 00:36:01.018
today's day and age in this economy,
it's difficult to find the, the right

00:36:01.018 --> 00:36:01.888
role for yourself,

00:36:01.888 --> 00:36:04.658
Michael: and maybe you have the ability
to start something, maybe you don't,

00:36:05.188 --> 00:36:11.548
but you can at least start to position
yourself to spend more of your energy,

00:36:11.548 --> 00:36:19.108
more of your time doing the things that
bring you happiness, bring you positivity,

00:36:19.108 --> 00:36:23.908
and less time worrying about the things
that are bringing you stress, right?

00:36:23.938 --> 00:36:26.918
But you don't know that until you've
done some of these experiences.

00:36:26.918 --> 00:36:29.998
So, I imagine your coaching work is
different with people in their 20s versus

00:36:30.758 --> 00:36:31.728
Chris: Yes

00:36:31.738 --> 00:36:34.928
Michael: people in their 40s, 'cause
they've probably had different

00:36:34.928 --> 00:36:37.358
levels and different types of
experiences depending on age.

00:36:37.358 --> 00:36:39.548
That's not to say that somebody
in their 20s doesn't know exactly

00:36:39.548 --> 00:36:41.098
what they want to do with life.

00:36:41.098 --> 00:36:45.158
I think I figured out at a very
young age what I enjoy doing.

00:36:45.158 --> 00:36:47.338
I've been doing that
for the last 25 years.

00:36:49.008 --> 00:36:52.998
But I didn't know some of the drawbacks,
I didn't know some of the other benefits

00:36:52.998 --> 00:36:55.108
to running my own business until I did it,

00:36:55.208 --> 00:36:56.498
Chris: Sure.

00:36:56.518 --> 00:36:56.538
Michael: right?

00:36:56.538 --> 00:36:57.278
I didn't know what some
of those challenges were.

00:36:57.538 --> 00:36:57.548
Chris: Mm-hmm.

00:37:01.758 --> 00:37:02.558
Michael: Chasing down people for payment,
not a fun experience for me, right?

00:37:02.558 --> 00:37:04.858
But it's something I have to
do, but how do I minimize that?

00:37:04.858 --> 00:37:08.768
And also like, you know, there are
things I can do, things I can set in

00:37:08.768 --> 00:37:13.118
place so that I minimize some of those
tasks that bring me more stress, right?

00:37:13.118 --> 00:37:18.318
So that I can live a more fulfilling
life because, to me, the less time I

00:37:18.318 --> 00:37:22.888
am, I spend chasing down customers for
payment, is more time I can be doing

00:37:22.888 --> 00:37:24.848
things that mean something to me.

00:37:25.138 --> 00:37:27.688
Chris: Right, as they say, spending
more time in your genius zone, right,

00:37:27.688 --> 00:37:30.538
is, like, the stuff that you're
actually good at and, you know,

00:37:30.538 --> 00:37:31.978
where can you outsource things.

00:37:31.978 --> 00:37:35.988
But also even if you're starting an
evolution at your job is not to quit it

00:37:35.988 --> 00:37:39.218
necessarily, but, like, to have a frank
conversation after you've done that

00:37:39.218 --> 00:37:43.048
analysis with your boss is like, "This
is the stuff I'm really good at. This is

00:37:43.048 --> 00:37:46.728
the stuff that I'm not as good at." And,
you know, you could keep grinding about

00:37:46.728 --> 00:37:50.208
it, but, like, can we evolve the job
that I'm doing more of the good st-, more

00:37:50.208 --> 00:37:53.588
of the stuff that I'm really strong at
and, you know, less of those other ones?

00:37:53.908 --> 00:37:57.458
As well as a thing that I recommend to
people sometimes is that if they can't

00:37:57.578 --> 00:38:01.268
necessarily do that as much, if you
identify some of the things in this

00:38:01.658 --> 00:38:04.748
StrengthFinders that you're really good at
that you're not doing a lot of it, can you

00:38:04.748 --> 00:38:06.578
start doing some of that outside of work?

00:38:06.768 --> 00:38:09.728
Just so that you're starting to exercise
the gifts that you were given and the

00:38:09.728 --> 00:38:10.998
things that you're naturally good at.

00:38:11.278 --> 00:38:15.838
And you'd be amazed at how then, you
know, the universe can conspire to

00:38:15.838 --> 00:38:19.398
bring other things to you if you're
actually working, you know, in your

00:38:19.398 --> 00:38:23.738
strength zones as opposed to spinning
your wheels and what I always say,

00:38:23.768 --> 00:38:25.528
playing defense on your weaknesses.

00:38:25.528 --> 00:38:28.068
I want you to go full
offense on your strengths.

00:38:29.268 --> 00:38:29.348
Michael: Right.

00:38:29.348 --> 00:38:29.448
Right.

00:38:29.618 --> 00:38:30.538
Yeah, I agree.

00:38:30.538 --> 00:38:33.758
And so that leads me to, like, something I
really want to ask you about, like playing

00:38:33.758 --> 00:38:37.528
offense on your strengths instead of
playing defense on your, your weaknesses

00:38:37.528 --> 00:38:39.208
and on your stresses and on your fears.

00:38:40.518 --> 00:38:43.858
We talk about that a lot
with work and our job.

00:38:43.888 --> 00:38:48.068
How does that shift for, you
know, to playing offense with

00:38:48.068 --> 00:38:50.588
your strengths instead of playing
defense to your weaknesses?

00:38:50.808 --> 00:38:53.478
How does that show up differently
at work versus at home?

00:38:53.508 --> 00:38:53.858
Chris: Mm-hmm.

00:38:54.428 --> 00:38:58.198
So what I, what I think, and I see
that a lot of times on these things,

00:38:58.308 --> 00:39:04.558
is, you know, oftentimes husband and
wife, you know, will divide and conquer

00:39:04.588 --> 00:39:07.118
some things in different, you know,
and, and pick up different roles and

00:39:07.118 --> 00:39:10.618
responsibilities, and that's, and, and
that makes sense, and you have to do it.

00:39:11.018 --> 00:39:16.158
One of the things I have encouraged some
of my clients to, and the, the men ones,

00:39:16.158 --> 00:39:20.638
is to take a look at it and it's like,
you know, not to sound old-fashioned,

00:39:20.638 --> 00:39:26.178
but, like, can you really lean into the,
the dad, the male-driven stuff, right?

00:39:26.178 --> 00:39:31.733
It's like that's the stuff that you, is
inherently kinda in you, and, you know,

00:39:31.763 --> 00:39:36.803
is, can be good long term for your,
your kids to see that dad was doing

00:39:36.803 --> 00:39:38.403
dad stuff and mom was doing mom stuff.

00:39:38.583 --> 00:39:40.913
That doesn't mean to come across
sexist, like you're not doing dishes

00:39:40.913 --> 00:39:44.613
or anything like that, but it's like,
you know it when, when you know it.

00:39:44.913 --> 00:39:48.113
So it's, it's a, it's a one thing of
just kind of dividing and conquering and

00:39:48.113 --> 00:39:52.403
finding a balance with your spouse, but
can you lean into the things that you're

00:39:52.403 --> 00:39:56.853
really good at and you're doing that with
your kids so that, you know, that just

00:39:56.963 --> 00:40:02.503
further becomes this flywheel is it's
natural and it brings out more joy in you,

00:40:02.503 --> 00:40:04.143
and it brings out more joy in the kids.

00:40:04.483 --> 00:40:08.773
So that's sometimes an interesting
exercise for people to go through

00:40:08.773 --> 00:40:10.943
because then they'll end up
altering some things they're doing,

00:40:10.943 --> 00:40:12.633
you know, 20, 30%, or whatever.

00:40:13.483 --> 00:40:17.283
But I think that that gets back to
doing the things that you were put on

00:40:17.283 --> 00:40:22.033
here on Earth to do, and sometimes just
gaining an awareness that you're out of

00:40:22.033 --> 00:40:26.403
alignment on those things, and that's
what I say all the time, is that can

00:40:26.403 --> 00:40:27.853
make all the difference in the world.

00:40:27.923 --> 00:40:32.953
And again, I, I, I'll say this again,
my whole idea about moving people from

00:40:32.953 --> 00:40:39.213
grinding to aligning doesn't then equate
of a, of a blowup, of a revolution

00:40:39.213 --> 00:40:40.773
and ripping things out at the roots.

00:40:41.093 --> 00:40:43.613
It's more just like you're not a disaster.

00:40:43.853 --> 00:40:46.303
It's more like you just know
that things could be better.

00:40:46.803 --> 00:40:51.563
So as opposed to me just pontificating
about what I think you should do, it's

00:40:51.563 --> 00:40:55.713
more like let's actually have an engaged,
structured conversation where you're using

00:40:56.143 --> 00:41:00.023
Enneagram around personalities and like
Clifton StrengthsFinders around strengths,

00:41:00.193 --> 00:41:02.653
and we build it in reality from that.

00:41:02.963 --> 00:41:07.653
And again, you can apply that similarly
to your, your home life when you

00:41:07.653 --> 00:41:08.993
actually take a real look at it.

00:41:09.688 --> 00:41:09.898
Michael: Right.

00:41:10.558 --> 00:41:15.318
So what do you think then the first
step is to look at your home life

00:41:15.318 --> 00:41:21.578
of like how do you align that better
to what your strengths are and, you

00:41:21.578 --> 00:41:25.778
know, still address the fears you
have, but not let the fears kind of

00:41:25.778 --> 00:41:27.808
dictate how you show up at home, too?

00:41:27.808 --> 00:41:33.508
Like, what's the first step a dad could
make to improve, you know, how he feels

00:41:33.508 --> 00:41:34.838
about how he's showing up at home?

00:41:35.183 --> 00:41:36.523
Chris: So I'd, I'd
start with the positive.

00:41:36.523 --> 00:41:40.173
I'd say, "What's the stuff that
energizes you? What's the great fun

00:41:40.393 --> 00:41:45.203
stuff where you feel like you're in
your highest purpose as a dad with

00:41:45.203 --> 00:41:46.563
your kids?" And start with that.

00:41:46.703 --> 00:41:50.263
Like, that'll elevate you into thinking
like, "Oh, this is awesome. I love when

00:41:50.263 --> 00:41:51.653
we do this, and I'm really good at this."

00:41:52.568 --> 00:41:54.268
Michael: Sure.

00:41:56.463 --> 00:41:57.013
Chris: And, and I'd say, you
know, conversely, "What's the

00:41:57.013 --> 00:42:01.513
stuff that currently causes you,
you know, angst or discomfort or

00:42:01.513 --> 00:42:05.603
friction?" And maybe then ask why.

00:42:06.363 --> 00:42:07.563
And so why is that?

00:42:07.703 --> 00:42:11.603
And it could be that it's not something
you like to do, or it could be you're just

00:42:11.913 --> 00:42:15.813
assuming that your spouse has asked you
to do that because they don't wanna do it.

00:42:15.813 --> 00:42:17.503
Whatever it is, but bring it to light.

00:42:18.003 --> 00:42:22.283
So I'd start with the good stuff,
find the things that feel like they're

00:42:22.283 --> 00:42:25.883
not, feel like the things that are
grinding, and then ask yourself

00:42:25.883 --> 00:42:32.373
why, and then pick maybe one of them
to evolve or change and work on.

00:42:32.373 --> 00:42:35.173
Again, this is my whole evolution
approach as opposed to revolution.

00:42:35.733 --> 00:42:39.603
And pick it o-, and pick it, and have
the conversation with your spouse and

00:42:39.603 --> 00:42:43.263
say, "Maybe I'd like to do more of
this and less of this." As opposed to

00:42:43.263 --> 00:42:47.793
saying, and believe me, I know this, I
w-, with my ex for 27 years, is that,

00:42:47.793 --> 00:42:49.693
like, you don't just dictate, you know?

00:42:49.693 --> 00:42:52.863
Don't just say, "I wanna do this." It's
like engage that as a conversation,

00:42:53.283 --> 00:42:56.383
and then that'll become an example of
ones that you can then do another one.

00:42:56.913 --> 00:43:00.593
So I think that that can set you
on an evolution that you're playing

00:43:00.593 --> 00:43:04.143
more to your strengths and doing the
things that actually bring you joy.

00:43:04.143 --> 00:43:06.823
And when you're in a good
mood, it's better for the kids.

00:43:06.823 --> 00:43:09.463
And you notice I keep always talking
about this flywheel stuff, is that

00:43:09.783 --> 00:43:11.273
things don't happen in isolation.

00:43:11.713 --> 00:43:15.693
And the more you're able to do
thoughtful approaches by first gaining

00:43:15.693 --> 00:43:19.713
awareness and then actually addressing
things, it's amazing the knock-on

00:43:19.713 --> 00:43:21.343
effects it can have in a good way.

00:43:22.173 --> 00:43:22.873
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:43:23.143 --> 00:43:28.173
I think what I appreciate most about
what you just said is that for the things

00:43:28.173 --> 00:43:33.293
that you view more negatively at home,
the tasks you might have to do at home

00:43:33.293 --> 00:43:37.163
that you don't really care for, that
you're not addressing them to avoid

00:43:37.163 --> 00:43:38.443
them, figuring out ways to avoid them.

00:43:38.633 --> 00:43:42.813
You're addressing them to figure out
ways to make them better fit with what

00:43:42.953 --> 00:43:43.243
Chris: Yeah.

00:43:43.433 --> 00:43:45.193
Michael: you want to do, how you
want to show up at home, right?

00:43:45.353 --> 00:43:46.563
Chris: Yeah.

00:43:46.833 --> 00:43:48.133
Michael: And it's the same
with the, the good stuff.

00:43:48.133 --> 00:43:50.593
It's not, you're not focusing on the
good stuff so that you could only do the

00:43:50.713 --> 00:43:54.473
good stuff, right, because even that,
even if you like, "Okay, my favorite

00:43:54.473 --> 00:43:58.793
thing to do is, you know, just to shoot
baskets with my kids outside every day,

00:43:58.793 --> 00:44:04.153
and that's all I'm gonna do with them all
day." That's, you're, A, you're gonna get

00:44:04.193 --> 00:44:05.963
sick of it at some point, most likely.

00:44:06.473 --> 00:44:10.383
B, you're not really evolving
yourself or your family.

00:44:11.213 --> 00:44:14.503
Like, yes, you will to some degree,
but you're gonna start to, the

00:44:14.503 --> 00:44:15.333
law of diminishing returns is

00:44:15.403 --> 00:44:15.963
Chris: Sure.

00:44:16.103 --> 00:44:16.913
Michael: Gonna show up, right?

00:44:17.593 --> 00:44:19.693
And so I think what you're saying,
if I understand this correctly,

00:44:19.693 --> 00:44:21.923
is like, okay, let's identify

00:44:24.423 --> 00:44:24.813
what are the things you
do enjoy most at home?

00:44:24.813 --> 00:44:28.643
What are the things that are, you dread
or maybe holding you back at home?

00:44:28.643 --> 00:44:37.243
And it's like, how do you optimize
them to allow you to be the person

00:44:37.243 --> 00:44:39.833
you most want to be when you're home?

00:44:39.913 --> 00:44:40.893
Chris: Yeah, that's exactly right.

00:44:41.313 --> 00:44:43.433
Michael: How are you most present at home?

00:44:43.593 --> 00:44:44.763
Chris: Yeah, so you see,
that's just the idea.

00:44:44.763 --> 00:44:46.813
I keep coming back to that
phrase, "Be here now." So

00:44:46.813 --> 00:44:48.213
how can you best be here now?

00:44:48.213 --> 00:44:53.443
So part of it is to free up, you
know, your, your mind from being

00:44:53.443 --> 00:44:55.963
somewhere else, particularly
thinking and worrying about work.

00:44:56.263 --> 00:44:59.513
But then when you're there in it, you
know, some other times your mind might

00:44:59.513 --> 00:45:02.713
be, like, resentful that you're doing
whatever it is that you're doing.

00:45:03.193 --> 00:45:06.923
So, you know, I suggest on people
that they have, they can, you know,

00:45:06.923 --> 00:45:10.283
lay that out and then have that
conversation, as well as maybe if

00:45:10.283 --> 00:45:13.153
it is an ongoing thing and you don't
like to do it, can you alternate?

00:45:13.638 --> 00:45:17.288
So that, you know, it's not, again,
that's more of an evolution as opposed to,

00:45:17.288 --> 00:45:21.758
"Listen, I don't wanna do this anymore.
Will you pick this up?" So y-, you know,

00:45:21.758 --> 00:45:26.098
you notice these recurring patterns that
I always recognize with people, right?

00:45:26.098 --> 00:45:30.428
Is first is awareness of these things,
and then think about where you wanna be,

00:45:30.758 --> 00:45:35.758
and then as opposed to making a giant
leap, what's a thoughtful way that we

00:45:35.758 --> 00:45:39.288
can get you there so that you're always
moving towards the things that, you

00:45:39.288 --> 00:45:41.768
know, bring you joy and feel really good.

00:45:42.648 --> 00:45:47.848
But it's doing it in an ever-evolving way
as opposed to like, "One day I'm gonna

00:45:47.848 --> 00:45:50.578
get to this thing, and then everything's
gonna be perfect." Because it's not.

00:45:51.133 --> 00:45:51.238
Michael: Right.

00:45:51.248 --> 00:45:54.378
Chris: It's the idea is that it's
always going to outdistance you, right?

00:45:54.708 --> 00:46:00.138
But it's like if you, are you always
in then the, the mindset of practicing

00:46:00.138 --> 00:46:03.898
gratitude, and I'm being aware of the
things that are making me happy and

00:46:03.898 --> 00:46:10.178
that are unhappy, and I'm moving towards
being a person that lives an overall,

00:46:10.248 --> 00:46:14.138
you know, aligned life as opposed to,
"Alright, I'm just gonna suck this up for

00:46:14.138 --> 00:46:17.258
the next 10 years and be miserable, but
maybe 10 years from now it'll be better."

00:46:18.198 --> 00:46:18.388
Michael: Right.

00:46:18.818 --> 00:46:19.168
Right.

00:46:19.378 --> 00:46:26.968
It's really, to me, it's profound,
right, it's a profound mindset, but at

00:46:26.978 --> 00:46:29.608
the same time, it's really attainable,

00:46:29.648 --> 00:46:30.887
Chris: Of course it is.

00:46:31.158 --> 00:46:31.438
Michael: that's right?

00:46:31.438 --> 00:46:36.338
Right, like that's the thing, like, we
overcomplicate these scenarios in our

00:46:36.338 --> 00:46:39.638
minds, like, like we talked about from
the beginning of this conversation, right?

00:46:39.638 --> 00:46:45.048
Of like, it's so easy to s-, to
catastrophize and spiral on some

00:46:45.048 --> 00:46:50.908
of our fears, but if we just slow
ourselves down, like we can…

00:46:51.578 --> 00:46:55.598
Chris: Yeah, well, it's awareness
and then prioritizing reprogramming

00:46:55.598 --> 00:46:59.868
mindset and habits because those are the
things you just run on automatically.

00:47:00.568 --> 00:47:03.038
And then when you look back on it,
you're like, "Why did I do that? Why do

00:47:03.038 --> 00:47:06.748
I keep doing this?" Or like, if something
else comes up, it's the mindset of you

00:47:06.748 --> 00:47:08.398
immediately go to the negative on it.

00:47:08.918 --> 00:47:11.408
And I always keep saying it's
like, "It's okay." You know,

00:47:11.408 --> 00:47:12.668
don't beat yourself up over it.

00:47:12.668 --> 00:47:16.088
The first step is awareness of
it, and that built up over time.

00:47:16.458 --> 00:47:20.578
So now we need to, you know, reset
the new one, and it's then not gonna

00:47:20.578 --> 00:47:24.778
be like, "Okay, good. Now you're all
set. It's gonna start tomorrow." It

00:47:24.778 --> 00:47:27.878
ends up being a process, and that's
the reason why I end up working

00:47:27.878 --> 00:47:29.148
with my clients on these things.

00:47:29.408 --> 00:47:31.648
But this is why I always say all
the time, and I say it to everybody,

00:47:31.648 --> 00:47:35.538
that's the hardest part, is the last
two, the, the last two of the five

00:47:35.538 --> 00:47:37.538
steps on the mindset and habits.

00:47:37.858 --> 00:47:40.428
Because you're with yourself 24/7, right?

00:47:40.428 --> 00:47:42.918
And if you're working with a coach
or you're even just doing the best

00:47:42.918 --> 00:47:46.458
that you can to try to reprogram
your habits, it's like it, it can be

00:47:46.458 --> 00:47:48.188
hard, and it's going to take a while.

00:47:48.188 --> 00:47:50.888
It's like getting back to the gym,
and it's gonna take a while before

00:47:51.108 --> 00:47:52.538
you start seeing these results.

00:47:52.808 --> 00:47:56.158
And it just becomes easier to
just kind of drop them when it's

00:47:56.158 --> 00:47:57.608
not immediate gratification.

00:47:58.028 --> 00:48:01.328
So that's why I try to s-, set
the expectations with people is

00:48:01.328 --> 00:48:05.338
that I'm not hypnotizing you or
giving you a pill or an injection.

00:48:05.818 --> 00:48:09.068
It's more like we're gonna start with
this and you are now going to be able

00:48:09.068 --> 00:48:15.048
to internalize that so that what you're
carrying around 24/7/365 is the version

00:48:15.048 --> 00:48:16.428
of you that you're capable of being.

00:48:17.108 --> 00:48:17.318
Michael: Yep.

00:48:17.768 --> 00:48:18.258
Absolutely.

00:48:18.708 --> 00:48:19.288
I love that.

00:48:19.328 --> 00:48:22.268
And from slow to fast and from
serious to not so serious, I want

00:48:22.268 --> 00:48:23.278
to move on to our speed round.

00:48:24.108 --> 00:48:25.538
Five quick questions, have
nothing to do with anything.

00:48:25.828 --> 00:48:26.528
Chris: Great.

00:48:27.338 --> 00:48:30.478
Michael: Really going to bring down the
IQ of the rest of this conversation here.

00:48:30.478 --> 00:48:33.228
But if you're ready, here's the
first question: What's the first kid

00:48:33.228 --> 00:48:34.668
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:48:38.958 --> 00:48:39.668
Chris: Brady Bunch.

00:48:40.398 --> 00:48:41.058
Michael: Brady Bunch, okay.

00:48:42.598 --> 00:48:43.168
Excellent.

00:48:43.198 --> 00:48:44.668
I haven't heard that
song in quite some time.

00:48:44.728 --> 00:48:46.058
Chris: I was thinking
about me when I was a kid.

00:48:46.443 --> 00:48:46.743
Michael: Yeah.

00:48:47.113 --> 00:48:48.243
What was your very first job?

00:48:49.228 --> 00:48:55.078
Chris: I was, I bagged groceries
at a grocery store in my

00:48:55.128 --> 00:49:02.658
neighborhood, and I got paid like
$2 plus tips, and I loved it.

00:49:03.493 --> 00:49:04.033
Michael: That's awesome.

00:49:04.523 --> 00:49:06.093
How old were you when
you, you started that?

00:49:06.378 --> 00:49:10.168
Chris: I was supposed to be
16, but I somehow got in at 15.

00:49:10.983 --> 00:49:11.543
Michael: Excellent.

00:49:11.573 --> 00:49:11.943
Excellent.

00:49:12.853 --> 00:49:15.063
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:49:15.063 --> 00:49:16.843
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:49:20.318 --> 00:49:22.588
Chris: That's outstanding.

00:49:23.288 --> 00:49:24.728
T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:49:25.213 --> 00:49:25.833
Michael: Why is that?

00:49:26.298 --> 00:49:28.748
Chris: It just sounds like it'd
be a blast, particularly if I

00:49:28.748 --> 00:49:30.108
know it's only gonna be 24 hours.

00:49:30.463 --> 00:49:30.603
Michael: Right.

00:49:30.603 --> 00:49:30.913
Right.

00:49:30.968 --> 00:49:31.138
Chris: Yeah.

00:49:31.883 --> 00:49:32.483
Michael: Fair enough.

00:49:32.633 --> 00:49:35.303
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:49:35.378 --> 00:49:36.868
Chris: "Livin' on a Prayer" by Bon Jovi.

00:49:37.673 --> 00:49:38.253
Michael: Classic.

00:49:38.483 --> 00:49:38.873
Very good.

00:49:39.293 --> 00:49:41.313
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:49:41.313 --> 00:49:43.173
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:49:48.608 --> 00:49:55.138
Chris: I carried around Listerine
Pocketpaks, if you remember those things.

00:49:55.288 --> 00:50:00.108
So I bought them like a long time
ago and then realized like five years

00:50:00.108 --> 00:50:02.828
ago that they were still in there and
they were kinda old and crusty and

00:50:02.828 --> 00:50:05.528
probably unusable, but I was like, "You
know what? I might need them someday

00:50:05.528 --> 00:50:06.528
and I might wish that I still had."

00:50:06.758 --> 00:50:09.578
So I just traveled up to DC this
past weekend for my youngest

00:50:09.578 --> 00:50:12.608
daughter's graduation, and I zipped
open my bag and it's still there.

00:50:12.608 --> 00:50:16.608
So it's probably a 15-year-old
little piece of plastic with

00:50:16.898 --> 00:50:18.008
Listerine Pocketpaks in it.

00:50:18.923 --> 00:50:19.683
Michael: Those little strips, right?

00:50:19.728 --> 00:50:20.668
Chris: Yeah, little strips.

00:50:21.148 --> 00:50:21.258
Yeah.

00:50:21.953 --> 00:50:22.483
Michael: Wow.

00:50:22.533 --> 00:50:24.668
That's like the bubble gum in
the old trading card packs,

00:50:24.718 --> 00:50:25.618
Chris: Oh, for sure.

00:50:25.653 --> 00:50:25.773
Michael: right?

00:50:26.008 --> 00:50:27.468
Chris: And I'm sure I can't use it.

00:50:27.468 --> 00:50:28.198
It's inedible.

00:50:28.228 --> 00:50:31.328
But for, but me just thinking about
sometime in the future I might need this,

00:50:31.328 --> 00:50:32.458
so I'm just gonna keep it in the bag.

00:50:33.553 --> 00:50:34.513
Michael: That's great.

00:50:34.592 --> 00:50:34.782
Chris: Yeah.

00:50:34.863 --> 00:50:35.973
Michael: Well, Chris, this
has been a great conversation.

00:50:35.973 --> 00:50:36.623
I appreciate it.

00:50:36.623 --> 00:50:39.843
And for anyone listening who wants to
go deeper into your work, learn more

00:50:39.843 --> 00:50:42.703
about your framework and your book, or
connect with you directly, where should

00:50:42.703 --> 00:50:44.443
they go and what would you point them to?

00:50:44.572 --> 00:50:44.822
Chris: Sure.

00:50:44.822 --> 00:50:46.312
So I have a very easy name.

00:50:46.312 --> 00:50:48.822
It's Chris Woods with
an S, and I'm a coach.

00:50:49.232 --> 00:50:51.412
So my website is called
chriswoodscoach.com.

00:50:52.532 --> 00:50:56.282
And there you can see more details
about how I work with people,

00:50:56.282 --> 00:51:00.872
testimonials from happy customers,
a link to my book on Amazon, as

00:51:00.872 --> 00:51:05.312
well as a Message Me button that I
respond to every message that I get.

00:51:05.312 --> 00:51:08.592
So, if this resonates with anybody,
I'd love to talk to people.

00:51:09.563 --> 00:51:09.903
Michael: Awesome.

00:51:09.903 --> 00:51:10.133
Love that.

00:51:10.133 --> 00:51:13.653
We'll put all those links in the show
notes to your website, to your book.

00:51:14.643 --> 00:51:16.073
Chris, I really appreciate this.

00:51:16.263 --> 00:51:20.153
Not just the story, you know, you
went through some stuff, right?

00:51:20.153 --> 00:51:22.103
You flatlined, like we can't all say that.

00:51:22.713 --> 00:51:27.113
But the way you turn something so
intense into something practical

00:51:27.113 --> 00:51:28.973
that people can actually use.

00:51:29.043 --> 00:51:33.973
I think a lot of dads are gonna hear
themselves in parts of this conversation

00:51:33.973 --> 00:51:39.448
and walk away with maybe a different lens
of kind of how they're showing up and what

00:51:39.448 --> 00:51:44.618
they can do to maybe just make their lives
a little bit better, maybe a lot better.

00:51:44.668 --> 00:51:46.358
But, you know, one step at a time.

00:51:46.358 --> 00:51:49.838
Let's identify what that first
thing is and then kind of think,

00:51:49.838 --> 00:51:53.538
talk through like what is holding
me back on that, that fear.

00:51:53.988 --> 00:51:55.518
So I appreciate you coming on the show.

00:51:55.518 --> 00:51:58.018
Thank you so much for taking
the time to chat with me today.

00:51:58.448 --> 00:52:01.038
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you find

00:52:01.038 --> 00:52:04.608
yourself in between, navigating a season
that feels different, head to gaptogig.com

00:52:04.608 --> 00:52:06.578
to subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:52:06.618 --> 00:52:10.008
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:52:10.058 --> 00:52:11.268
and what really matters right now.

00:52:11.798 --> 00:52:14.078
If this conversation resonated,
please consider sending it to another

00:52:14.078 --> 00:52:15.128
dad who might need to hear it.

00:52:15.568 --> 00:52:17.168
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:52:17.338 --> 00:52:19.208
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.