Natalie Holder on Why Working Dads Need a Personal Board of Directors

WEBVTT

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Natalie: I wanna really be clear
about what does more meaning mean.

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So, for some people, more
meaning could be more money.

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I was talking to my son's godfather
recently, and we were, you know, talking

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about his most recent l-, his most
recent job move, and he was lamenting

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that he's never really worked in a
place that really appreciated him.

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And I said, "Well, let's
stop and think about that.

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When you worked at the Capitol, you
actually had a great boss who really

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did appreciate you." And he said, "But
I didn't make the money I wanted." I

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said, "Well, ask the question, right?

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Like, what does me-, more
meaningful mean to you?

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What does more fulfilling, what does
appreciation look like for you?"

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here, we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today's guest is Natalie Holder.

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She's an employment lawyer and executive
coach who helps professionals navigate

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some of the most difficult moments in
their careers, from workplace trauma to

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being overlooked, underestimated, or stuck
in environments that just aren't working.

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She's led global HR compliance for
Starwood Hotels and Resorts, served

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as a chief diversity officer, and
even delivered court-ordered training

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in high-stakes discrimination cases.

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So she's seen firsthand what happens when
workplace culture breaks down and what

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it actually takes to rebuild from it.

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What I appreciate about Natalie's
work is it's not just theoretical.

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It's really grounded in real
situations, real consequences, and

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real decisions people have to make
when their work and their life start

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pulling in different directions.

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Natalie, I'm really excited
to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Natalie: Thank you.

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It's my pleasure to be here.

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Michael: Thank you.

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So I want to start with the idea of work
and life starting to pull in different

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directions, because I think a lot of dads
listening will recognize this feeling,

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even if they don't always say it out loud.

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When someone feels off at work but
can't quite explain why, what's

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usually going on beneath the surface?

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Natalie: That's a heavy question
because it's a heavy feeling, right?

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And it doesn't just happen overnight.

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Often it is this compilation
of experiences that we've had.

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It's the compilation of disappointments.

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It's the compilation of unexpected
events occurring that really aren't

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matching up with what we expected when
we walked into that work environment.

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I always joke that the first day, that's
probably going to be the day that you

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are a star in your organization because
that is the day where everyone's,

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you know, starting the experience
with expectation and the whole idea

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that, alright, this is going to be
a really great work environment.

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However, once you get like 90
days into the experience, 100

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days into the experience, that's
when there's more reality.

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That's where you start
seeing who the players are.

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That's when you start encountering,
you know, who are your supporters,

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who are your champions versus
who are your detractors, who are

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your saboteurs in the workplace.

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And those are people that will appear
and surface at different times.

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And, sadly, if we have more of
the saboteurs as opposed to the

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champions, that is what's going
to pull down our experience.

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I've often said people
People don't leave bad jobs.

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People leave bad managers.

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And sometimes it is that manager who's
the saboteur, and that's often the

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worst experience because it's your m-,
it's your manager who you're looking

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toward as the person who's going to
be your mentor, as your person who's

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going to be the supporter, the person
who's going to make sure that you get

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quality work and get the credit for doing

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it

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Michael: Right.

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And you say, you talk about saboteurs,
and oftentimes it feels like we can be

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our own saboteurs even at work, right?

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Like sometimes we, whether it's doubt
that creeps in or maybe, you know,

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we get feedback we don't like and we
start to get into our own heads, right?

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Is, can we be sabotaging ourselves
just as much as others sab-, others

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may cause us to not enjoy our jobs?

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Or is it typically an outside
force that is always causing this

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disconnect between what we hope
to be achieving at work and what

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Natalie: So there's this controversy as
to whether or not there is such a thing

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as, like, self-sabotage because the
whole notion is, well, when you engage

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in behaviors that don't exactly inure to
your benefit, you're basically working

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off of the signals that you're getting.

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However, I do believe that you
can be working against your

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own self-interest at times.

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You could be positioning yourself in
such a way that you are not going to get

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that you're looking for.

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You could be that person who's not
understanding the organizational

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culture that you're in, and as a
result, not really aligning with it.

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And as we've all experienced, people
will oftentimes prefer to work with

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the people that they like as opposed
to the people who are the most

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experienced and the best at what they do.

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How many times have you ever seen
someone who was mediocre to just average

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getting all sorts of great opportunities
all because they made the right

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relationships with the right people?

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And so there are some people who,
yes, definitely, you know, engage in

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those kinds of behaviors that don't
necessarily align with what would

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be a way of advancing their career.

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And there are ways to definitely,
you know, tap into that.

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There are ways to correct and
check that and making sure that

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you're not going down that route.

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But I often would question and wonder,
you know, so what is prompting you

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to not necessarily go along with
the grain of your organization?

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Like, if you understand that you're in
an organization in where people enjoy

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face time, but you're that person who
said, "Oh, no, I'm not going to, you

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know, have lunch in the cafeteria.

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I'm not going you know, engage with
my colleagues." I often wonder and

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ask what's getting in that way?

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And a, a lot of times we may sense that
it's time for us to change, and I'm

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really big on just, you know, the pivot.

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And in fact, if anyone wants to take
a pivot assessment that I've created,

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it's on my website questei.org.

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And the pivot assessment,
it's, you know, it's what?

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Less than two minutes and you're out.

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It's an opportunity to really just
see what's gnawing at you, what's no

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longer resonating with you about the
opportunity that you walked into with

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this, you know, employment that you
were seeking or that you've landed.

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And most important, the
question is, alright, so what

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are you gonna do about that?

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You've gotten the signal that something's
just not resonating for you anymore.

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How are you going to respond to it?

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Are you going to respond to it in a
way in where you take a downward spiral

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in your own organization, or do you
start positioning yourself for greater

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opportunities outside your organization?

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Or maybe even finding a different
department that might be more aligned with

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what you're looking for and who you are.

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Michael: Right.

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That's a great point of there,
sometimes you need, you need to

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shift into a different role, right?

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And whether it's within the same
organization or not, like maybe you just

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need to work in a different department
or work for a different manager.

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Now, how frequent or how easy those
opportunities come by is another

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question, but you don't know what
opportunities could be there unless

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you put yourself out there, right?

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Like you said, that, you know,
sometimes you have to make those

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relationships with people in order
to find those opportunities, right?

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They always say it's not what you
know, but who you know, right?

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And I think that to some
degree applies here.

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But also the, let's say, stress that you
feel at work or that negative feeling

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that you're getting because of the job's
not aligned with what you're doing, or

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you have a, a boss you don't get along
with, or somebody may be sabotaging

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what you're trying to accomplish, that
stress, that dysfunction at work could

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not just spill out at work, but also,
also outside of work at home, right?

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How do you see wh-, when these moments
happen at work, how do you see that

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spill out, you know, particularly into
life at home or life outside the office?

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Like, what happens there?

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Natalie: So we like to think that
our lives are these containers, that

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there's work, that there's life at
home, that there are our community

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obligations or our community endeavors.

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It's really more of a potpourri.

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It's all mixed in there because that
which is happening to you at home

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is filtering into and it's seeping
into your work life, and vice versa.

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If you're that person who is, you know,
working really long hours, feeling as

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though you're not being credited with
the work that you're doing, that you're

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not being given the accolades or even
any sort of, you know, credit for what

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you're doing, can you just imagine the
conversations that you're having at home

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Michael: Right.

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Natalie: with your partner,
if you have children?

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It definitely all seeps into each
other, and it definitely follows you.

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And, you know, one of the most
important things is to be cognizant

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of how and what's happening
to you in these environments.

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You know, I remember when I first started
practicing law, I was the first attorney

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in my family, and I was the first person
to work in a profession in where there

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really wasn't a 9:00 to 5:00 expectation.

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So my parents didn't really understand
the whole idea of, "It's 6:00. Why aren't

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you at home? Why aren't you cooking, why
aren't you at home cooking dinner for

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your husband?" They didn't understand
that because that was just not their norm.

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And so sometimes we have to have the
conversations that we don't think we

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need to have with the people who are
in our homes, with the people who we

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live with, the people who love us.

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That sometimes we have to really
deconstruct what's happening so

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that they understand the experience.

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Because if we're expecting people to read
our minds and understand, oh, well, yeah,

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I work for a jerk, and to understand
what does that jerk show up as, right?

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So when I say you're, you're acting
like a jerk, and you say someone's

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acting like a jerk, we have two
d-, very different definitions.

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So it's so important that you do share
with the people in your life, "Hey,

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this is what's happening, and this is
how I'm trying to navigate it." And

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I t-, I will tell you, some of the
smartest people who I've run into who've

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managed this are the people who bring
their partners into their experiences.

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They, they strategize with their partners.

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They figure out what is, w-, you
know, what is a course of action.

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I remember I had a colleague who was
so, who was so strategic with this.

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They would actually use their spouse as a
way to curry favor with their supervisor.

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Now, it wasn't anything,
you know, illicit.

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It wasn't anything like Indecent
Proposal, you know, nothing like that.

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It was, it was simply understanding
that at the, you know, holiday par-, at

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the holiday party, that the supervisor
and this person's spouse would enjoy

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talking about a certain activity.

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I think they both enjoyed golfing.

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And so, because the supervisor
now had this positive touchpoint

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through the spouse, that made life
a little bit more palatable for

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my colleague in the workplace.

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Because the memory now of my colleague
was, "Oh, I remember having a really

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cool conversation with your spouse.

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You know what?

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I'm gonna cut you some slack here,"
or, "I'm going to, you know, make

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sure that, you know, a few things
are easier for you in the workplace."

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Michael: That's so, so interesting
'cause it's like, it's almost as

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if in that particular scenario,
it's like the boss doesn't want to

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disappoint the spouse now, right?

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So it, it allows them to, it allows you
as the employee to be like, to have this

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additional thing in your favor to maybe
make, just ease things a little bit.

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I'm curious, you say like, if
you have a spouse, but not all

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people have a, unfortunately
have a partner at the moment.

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Like, if you don't have that person
at home, what other, is there somebody

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else that you can go to or is there
some other method you can use to kind

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of help you rebalance yourself if you
are in a toxic environment at work?

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Or maybe it's vice versa, like maybe it's
the other way around where something's

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going on in your life, maybe you have a
sick family member or maybe, you know,

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some, something negative's going on
outside of work and you need to lean on

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work to help you kind of rebalance things.

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How do you, when those things are kind
of off-kilter, you don't necessarily

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have that resource, how do you manage

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Natalie: Absolutely.

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I am a huge believer in having
your personal board of directors.

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Your personal board of directors are
the people who you surround yourself

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with who are invested in your success.

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These are the people you trust.

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These are the people who you should trust.

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So often we look for people to serve
on our personal board of directors when

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we need them, but they should actually
be in place well before we need them.

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There's a really good saying, "If you
haven't developed the relationship by

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the time you need it, it's too late."
And so, y-, you can con-, you know,

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you can structure your personal board
any which way you want, but I highly

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recommend, like recently I did a talk for

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a consulting firm, and I was talking
to their young employees group, and

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I said, "You should have four seats.

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I recommend four seats on your personal
board of, of directors to align with

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the four quadrants of your work life.

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Number one, you should have someone
who has served as a senior, a senior

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level professional, a CEO preferably.

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Someone who has been at
that chief executive level.

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Someone who sat and maybe
even led in the C-suite."

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Why?

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Because, as you mentioned, life
happens to us, but we need to be able

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to communicate that life is happening
to us in a way, that will make our

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supervisors, make our organization
understand and actually empathize with

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us as opposed to sympathize with us.

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And even worse, not retaliate against us.

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And so it is that CEO who helps you
to translate very emotional language

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into that strategic business language.

00:14:40.434 --> 00:14:44.234
It's your CEO who's going to move you
from the, "Well, this is not fair.

00:14:44.234 --> 00:14:48.374
I don't wanna do this," to instead
helping you to communicate in a way

00:14:48.384 --> 00:14:51.364
in where you're talking about the
dollars and cents of your organization.

00:14:51.794 --> 00:14:57.144
For instance, you know, this move might
require us to invest in X, Y, and Z,

00:14:57.144 --> 00:14:58.644
and that might be a detriment to us.

00:14:58.874 --> 00:15:04.411
Or, you know as y- as you're
talking about, you know, having a

00:15:04.421 --> 00:15:05.961
s-, a family member who's not well.

00:15:06.671 --> 00:15:10.601
Being able to express that, you know,
maybe working remotely is something

00:15:10.601 --> 00:15:13.921
that would inure to the benefit of
the organization because you would

00:15:13.931 --> 00:15:18.671
be able to be much more productive
and being able to manage a situation

00:15:18.671 --> 00:15:19.821
that is definitely manageable.

00:15:20.999 --> 00:15:21.299
You know?

00:15:21.379 --> 00:15:24.759
So, basically that's the person who's
helping you to really craft your message.

00:15:25.909 --> 00:15:27.279
You have an industry insider.

00:15:27.639 --> 00:15:30.959
Your industry insider is the person
who's telling you what's happening in

00:15:30.959 --> 00:15:32.549
your industry well before it happens.

00:15:32.819 --> 00:15:38.749
This is the person who was telling you
back in 2022 that remote work was going to

00:15:38.759 --> 00:15:41.899
be a thing of the past, that we're gonna
start seeing more return to the office.

00:15:41.939 --> 00:15:47.279
This is the person who back in, let's say,
in 2019, was talking about the rise of AI.

00:15:49.049 --> 00:15:53.609
Your industry insider is that
person who is really, you know,

00:15:53.609 --> 00:15:57.239
watching market conditions and
is able to help you understand

00:15:57.509 --> 00:15:59.099
what you might not already know.

00:16:00.329 --> 00:16:01.969
You should also have
someone who's a contrarian.

00:16:02.519 --> 00:16:05.199
So people often think that a
contrarian is someone who doesn't

00:16:05.199 --> 00:16:08.419
have your best interest, but a lot
of times your contrarian is someone.

00:16:09.319 --> 00:16:15.289
So sometimes it's a family member,
sometimes it is a friend or a

00:16:15.289 --> 00:16:18.779
colleague, but that, that contrarian
is the person who is holding up

00:16:19.449 --> 00:16:21.529
a mirror to your blind spots.

00:16:22.169 --> 00:16:26.279
This is the person who's asking you the
questions that are critical for making

00:16:26.279 --> 00:16:27.789
sure that you're avoiding pitfalls.

00:16:28.999 --> 00:16:32.889
This is the person who's making sure
that you're not making a rash decision,

00:16:33.509 --> 00:16:37.989
and also making sure that you're not
making a dec-, a decision that is being

00:16:37.989 --> 00:16:43.539
communicated as only a benefit to you,
but also a benefit to your organization.

00:16:44.299 --> 00:16:45.499
And then lastly, I'm biased.

00:16:45.519 --> 00:16:49.119
I believe that your personal board
should have someone from human

00:16:49.119 --> 00:16:50.859
resources or an employment lawyer.

00:16:51.189 --> 00:16:51.629
Why?

00:16:51.799 --> 00:16:55.519
We are the people who have seen
everything from your onboarding

00:16:55.519 --> 00:16:57.809
agreements to your severance agreement.

00:16:57.829 --> 00:16:59.429
We've seen everything in between.

00:16:59.829 --> 00:17:03.249
And so we're the people who can help
you to make sure that you're not

00:17:03.249 --> 00:17:07.749
sending that 2:00 AM missive that
is poorly worded and will not be

00:17:08.019 --> 00:17:09.709
received well by your supervisor.

00:17:10.119 --> 00:17:16.139
And so if you don't have these
people in your life, I think it

00:17:16.139 --> 00:17:20.139
becomes that much more challenging
because these are the people who

00:17:20.749 --> 00:17:25.899
have the experiences that really help
to expand our finite experiences.

00:17:25.969 --> 00:17:30.539
Each one of us only has a certain number
of touch points and perspectives, but

00:17:30.539 --> 00:17:35.589
when you are multiplying that by four,
you now have an advantage in where you

00:17:35.589 --> 00:17:38.749
are now able to see around corners that
you didn't even know existed before.

00:17:40.404 --> 00:17:40.474
Michael: Right.

00:17:41.154 --> 00:17:41.654
I love this.

00:17:41.654 --> 00:17:51.544
It's such a powerful idea because It
is, it allows you to strengthen yourself

00:17:51.724 --> 00:17:53.654
through the experiences of others, right?

00:17:53.684 --> 00:17:57.554
And I've d-, done something
similar to this when I started my

00:17:57.554 --> 00:17:59.684
first business a long time ago.

00:18:00.904 --> 00:18:04.024
I created a, I called them
a board of advisors, right?

00:18:06.084 --> 00:18:09.084
W-, f-, for the business, kinda sort
of, but really it was for me, right?

00:18:09.134 --> 00:18:11.204
I was the one that met
with them one-on-one.

00:18:11.344 --> 00:18:15.044
I brought them all together once a year
so we can have bigger conversations.

00:18:15.764 --> 00:18:21.594
But it was, for me, it was like I found
people that were, that had experience

00:18:21.634 --> 00:18:26.064
that I didn't have yet, that have built
a business, not necessarily in the same

00:18:26.064 --> 00:18:29.504
field as me 'cause I was going into
a field that was very u-, very new.

00:18:29.504 --> 00:18:32.654
There wasn't a lot of industry
experts per se in that regards.

00:18:32.654 --> 00:18:36.904
But I had somebody who was very good
at marketing, somebody who came from

00:18:36.904 --> 00:18:40.864
the advertising and marketing world and
had sold his firm for a lot of money

00:18:40.864 --> 00:18:43.004
and had a lot of experience working
with a lot of different clients.

00:18:43.004 --> 00:18:46.924
I had somebody on the logistics
side who had his own warehouses

00:18:46.924 --> 00:18:51.314
and managed businesses and built
these businesses around logistics.

00:18:51.774 --> 00:18:55.024
And, 'cause I was selling a product and
I needed to have somebody with logistics.

00:18:55.024 --> 00:19:01.664
And I had a finance professor who, you
know, taught at a business school, but

00:19:01.664 --> 00:19:07.344
also was an expert in financials and would
help me kind of understand these things.

00:19:07.364 --> 00:19:09.894
And it wasn't like, yes, I
could go to them and be like,

00:19:09.934 --> 00:19:11.224
"I have this specific issue."

00:19:11.234 --> 00:19:14.084
Like, "I'm trying to figure out
how do I do this one thing for my

00:19:14.084 --> 00:19:17.674
customer." But the value I really
got out of them was when we'd just

00:19:17.674 --> 00:19:21.344
sit down for a catch-up conversation
of like, "Here's what's going on.

00:19:21.354 --> 00:19:24.804
This is what I'm, I've been working on,"
and they can start poking holes, right?

00:19:25.194 --> 00:19:28.114
And they'd be like, you know, "In
my experience, I c-, you know, this

00:19:28.114 --> 00:19:29.374
is what happened when I did this."

00:19:30.274 --> 00:19:33.584
And it allows me, it allowed
me to skip some steps, right?

00:19:34.024 --> 00:19:38.164
Because they already know what the,
the result of that experience is.

00:19:38.374 --> 00:19:41.264
So I can just skip right to that
because they've outlined, "This is what

00:19:41.264 --> 00:19:45.034
you have to do to get to that step."
Or they can introduce me to somebody

00:19:45.034 --> 00:19:46.924
that can help me do that, right?

00:19:47.464 --> 00:19:51.274
Yeah, now that was, it's a, maybe a little
bit different than what you're saying

00:19:51.274 --> 00:19:57.524
'cause yours is even more personal than
that, which I love, and I wish I had

00:19:57.524 --> 00:20:02.174
thought of this idea earlier or heard of
this idea earlier because I could see the

00:20:02.174 --> 00:20:06.504
ways they could help me 'cause sometimes
it's just nice to have a sounding board.

00:20:06.574 --> 00:20:09.254
Yes, I c-, use, I use my spouse
as a sounding board, right?

00:20:09.254 --> 00:20:11.664
And I will say th-, you know, "This
is something I'm trying to figure out,

00:20:11.664 --> 00:20:14.694
I'm trying to work on. Can you help me
think it through?" And she'll have ideas

00:20:14.694 --> 00:20:16.354
and we'll bounce things back and forth.

00:20:17.434 --> 00:20:22.334
But to have different people,
different experts, or just people that

00:20:22.344 --> 00:20:24.924
have different perspectives, right?

00:20:24.924 --> 00:20:29.704
Because it's so easy to get closed
in on your own perspective and just

00:20:29.704 --> 00:20:31.254
have this very narrow viewpoint.

00:20:31.994 --> 00:20:35.744
And, yes, sometimes that's good to help
you get to your goal, but oftentimes

00:20:36.164 --> 00:20:38.644
you're missing a lot of the things
that fall outside that narrow lane

00:20:38.644 --> 00:20:40.124
that you're, you're driving down.

00:20:40.844 --> 00:20:45.768
And to have this personal board of
directors, I mean, I don't think it

00:20:45.768 --> 00:20:49.468
really matters what age you're at or
what stage you're at in your career.

00:20:49.468 --> 00:20:53.678
I'm just thinking like right now, like
who do I wanna now, I wanna now build

00:20:53.678 --> 00:20:54.858
a new personal board of directors.

00:20:55.208 --> 00:20:55.938
Who do I wanna ask?

00:20:55.968 --> 00:20:58.098
Like, where do I want
to, to get those from?

00:20:58.108 --> 00:21:03.898
And when I built my board of,
my advisory board, I went to the

00:21:03.918 --> 00:21:05.718
professionals I'd hired to do things.

00:21:05.718 --> 00:21:09.508
I went to my legal representation,
I went to my accountant, and I said,

00:21:09.948 --> 00:21:12.718
"These are the types of people I'm
looking for. Who do you know? Can you

00:21:12.718 --> 00:21:14.338
introduce me?" And I could find people.

00:21:14.338 --> 00:21:18.068
And I found a professor from the school
that I attended and like, so I was

00:21:18.068 --> 00:21:19.568
able to find people in different ways.

00:21:19.568 --> 00:21:23.998
But for personal board of directors,
I'm curious where, you know, I, I

00:21:23.998 --> 00:21:29.458
think that other dads that I, you
know, talk to on a day-to-day basis,

00:21:29.458 --> 00:21:32.228
they'd be like, "Well, where do I
start?" Like, "Who do I even ask?

00:21:32.478 --> 00:21:33.848
Where do I find these people?" Right?

00:21:33.868 --> 00:21:35.268
Like, I don't know a contrarian.

00:21:35.448 --> 00:21:40.418
Like… Right, so do you have suggestions
in terms of like how to actually build the

00:21:40.418 --> 00:21:42.868
board of your personal board of directors?

00:21:42.868 --> 00:21:43.928
Like who do you ask?

00:21:43.928 --> 00:21:44.148
How do

00:21:44.148 --> 00:21:44.578
you

00:21:44.953 --> 00:21:45.743
Natalie: Absolutely.

00:21:45.743 --> 00:21:50.023
So, you know, when we graduate from
school, our social circles all of

00:21:50.023 --> 00:21:52.643
a sudden become very much shrunken.

00:21:52.903 --> 00:21:57.173
We stop meeting the same volumes of
people who we met when we were freshmen in

00:21:57.173 --> 00:21:59.453
college, when we were in graduate school.

00:22:00.003 --> 00:22:03.243
And so, it really becomes
a matter of our, you know,

00:22:03.273 --> 00:22:05.503
organizational commitments and work.

00:22:05.613 --> 00:22:10.503
Those are the two main bases for us
to have, you know, a social network.

00:22:10.713 --> 00:22:12.573
And so, yes, it can seem challenging.

00:22:12.893 --> 00:22:15.323
However, I'm a big believer
in getting involved in your

00:22:15.323 --> 00:22:16.603
professional associations.

00:22:17.183 --> 00:22:22.033
So, I loved how you mentioned that you
found people with the subject matter

00:22:22.033 --> 00:22:24.003
expertise to serve on your board.

00:22:24.243 --> 00:22:27.233
I'll admit, when I talk about a board
of directors for your, you know,

00:22:27.533 --> 00:22:31.793
for your, you know, own personal
development, I'm industry agnostic.

00:22:32.023 --> 00:22:35.583
However, I do believe that if you're
creating a board for your business,

00:22:35.833 --> 00:22:40.153
you absolutely should have people who
have industry expertise and knowledge.

00:22:41.223 --> 00:22:42.653
But the concepts are still the same.

00:22:43.653 --> 00:22:44.203
So,

00:22:44.433 --> 00:22:50.436
you know, I remember… So I used to as
the chief diversity officer at Stanford's

00:22:50.436 --> 00:22:52.406
National Accelerator Laboratory.

00:22:52.706 --> 00:22:56.336
And twice a year, we had these
governance build, be, sorry,

00:22:56.336 --> 00:22:57.346
these governance meetings.

00:22:57.736 --> 00:23:02.186
And I won't say who, but I had colleagues
that did not appreciate these meetings

00:23:02.186 --> 00:23:06.386
because these really were, you know,
the open-the-hood meetings in where

00:23:06.396 --> 00:23:09.966
our governance board wanted to see what
were our risks, how are we managing

00:23:09.966 --> 00:23:15.606
risk, and how are we making sure that
we were keeping our initiative steady,

00:23:16.106 --> 00:23:17.436
and what should we be looking for.

00:23:17.796 --> 00:23:22.186
I loved preparing for those
meetings because I love being able

00:23:22.386 --> 00:23:26.916
to have someone really, you know,
pressure test what I was doing.

00:23:27.296 --> 00:23:30.436
I really wanted to make sure for the
next six months I also understood

00:23:30.436 --> 00:23:31.856
what my responsibilities were.

00:23:32.246 --> 00:23:36.596
And so, I must admit, the whole idea
of even, you know, with my business,

00:23:36.716 --> 00:23:40.598
which is, you know a business that
conducts workplace investigations and

00:23:40.598 --> 00:23:44.088
we look at, you know, creating a, a
bigger and better organizational culture

00:23:44.098 --> 00:23:49.178
for an organization, I definitely
chose people to be on my board who

00:23:49.188 --> 00:23:53.698
have subject matter expertise, who
understand the risks of my business.

00:23:54.308 --> 00:24:00.990
And there is overlap also into my
personal life where, like I said,

00:24:00.990 --> 00:24:05.470
I do believe in looking at your
professional trade associations.

00:24:05.540 --> 00:24:10.700
So for instance, as an attorney, I'm a
member of the American Bar Association.

00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:13.000
I'm a member of a few
other legal associations.

00:24:13.360 --> 00:24:16.550
Because I do a lot of public
speaking, I'm also a member of like

00:24:16.550 --> 00:24:18.760
the National Speakers Association.

00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:19.970
I'm on their board.

00:24:21.280 --> 00:24:22.670
And so on and so on.

00:24:22.750 --> 00:24:26.890
And so I would say that that's really a
good place to start, looking at what are

00:24:26.890 --> 00:24:28.990
your professional associations around you.

00:24:29.340 --> 00:24:32.440
Also, what are your proclivities?

00:24:32.460 --> 00:24:33.690
What do you enjoy doing?

00:24:33.700 --> 00:24:35.370
What puts a smile on your face?

00:24:36.430 --> 00:24:39.560
I remember years ago, I mean I don't
have the time for it now unfortunately,

00:24:39.560 --> 00:24:41.570
but I was a, a member of a few meetups.

00:24:42.450 --> 00:24:46.540
I used to be a me-, in a meetup for
people who spoke Spanish, and that

00:24:46.540 --> 00:24:51.330
was immense because I met people who
not only spoke Spanish, but also had

00:24:51.370 --> 00:24:55.360
insights about other interests that
I also had in terms of traveling, in

00:24:55.360 --> 00:24:58.136
terms of dining, in terms of culture.

00:24:58.456 --> 00:25:02.736
And so I'd also say, you know,
where could you, you know, tap into

00:25:02.736 --> 00:25:06.096
the people who have some sort of
social interest that you share?

00:25:08.692 --> 00:25:14.072
Interestingly enough, my, my house of
worship recently hosted a seminar designed

00:25:14.072 --> 00:25:18.222
for people who are professionals, designed
for people who are trying to figure

00:25:18.222 --> 00:25:23.035
out, you know, how are we navigating
in a space where, you know, in a space

00:25:23.055 --> 00:25:26.055
where there have been huge governmental
layoffs in the federal government.

00:25:26.335 --> 00:25:29.055
I live in DC, so that obviously
is a huge conversation for

00:25:29.055 --> 00:25:31.135
people in my, in my sphere.

00:25:31.475 --> 00:25:34.285
And so that's just like
another touch point.

00:25:34.725 --> 00:25:37.015
I would say the most important
thing is just to keep your eyes and

00:25:37.025 --> 00:25:40.665
ears open and to watch and to see
how are other people navigating.

00:25:41.195 --> 00:25:44.745
There's a huge other network out there
that we haven't even spoke about or

00:25:44.865 --> 00:25:46.275
touched on, and it's called LinkedIn.

00:25:46.275 --> 00:25:53.135
I am a big believer in looking at
the people on LinkedIn that you

00:25:53.135 --> 00:25:59.865
admire, not with envy, but with the
potential of being able to understand

00:25:59.985 --> 00:26:01.455
how they got to where they are.

00:26:02.835 --> 00:26:06.205
So, you know, so many of us have
that, like, LinkedIn envy where

00:26:06.205 --> 00:26:08.915
you're tired of seeing people, you
know, say, "Congratulate me 'cause

00:26:08.915 --> 00:26:10.345
I did this," or, "I got promoted."

00:26:11.375 --> 00:26:15.705
But I actually enjoy that because
I think, "Okay, so sky is not the

00:26:15.705 --> 00:26:19.225
limit. There's still something more
out there." And I'm a big believer

00:26:19.225 --> 00:26:23.895
that there is a huge pie, a pie that's
large enough for all of us to divide.

00:26:24.245 --> 00:26:30.425
And so there's no need to feel envy or
jealousy when someone else is achieving

00:26:30.435 --> 00:26:35.325
their goal, when someone else has
figured out how to, you know, launch a

00:26:35.325 --> 00:26:39.335
business, how to scale their business,
how to, you know, IPO their business.

00:26:40.265 --> 00:26:41.125
Because guess what?

00:26:41.565 --> 00:26:45.595
That is someone who can
now tutor and mentor me.

00:26:46.385 --> 00:26:49.875
So, without any shame sometimes, I
reach, actually, I do have, like,

00:26:49.875 --> 00:26:54.564
a list of people who I follow,
you know, r-, follow religiously.

00:26:54.564 --> 00:26:56.844
I make sure that, you
know, I like their posts.

00:26:57.044 --> 00:27:00.634
I'm like the second person
to like their posts because

00:27:00.674 --> 00:27:02.644
I genuinely enjoy their work.

00:27:03.054 --> 00:27:07.654
And I wanna be able that when I reach
out to that person, I can genuinely

00:27:07.654 --> 00:27:12.174
say, "I admire your work, and I would
love to have a conversation with you."

00:27:12.634 --> 00:27:16.104
And for that person to feel as though
they're not wasting their time on me

00:27:16.104 --> 00:27:19.264
because they know I've done my homework
and that I am someone who's going

00:27:19.264 --> 00:27:23.304
to do something incredible with the
information that they share with me.

00:27:25.988 --> 00:27:26.898
Michael: Yep, yeah, I
couldn't agree with you more.

00:27:26.898 --> 00:27:31.798
I think LinkedIn, in particular, and
I think for me at least over the past

00:27:31.808 --> 00:27:39.418
year or so, has just been a great tool
to put myself out there to meet new

00:27:39.418 --> 00:27:44.728
people that would have, I would have
no idea that they existed beforehand.

00:27:45.018 --> 00:27:48.618
Sometimes they reach out to me,
sometimes I reach out to them of,

00:27:49.038 --> 00:27:51.748
but we have a common connection
of we have some sort of interest.

00:27:53.008 --> 00:27:56.518
I think to build on what you're
saying of like, yes, you can follow

00:27:56.518 --> 00:28:01.388
the path of somebody, you know, quote
unquote, "ahead of you" in terms of

00:28:01.388 --> 00:28:04.378
like they've started their business,
they've IPO'd their business, but also

00:28:04.378 --> 00:28:06.278
could be they found that next job.

00:28:06.628 --> 00:28:11.758
You know, in this economy right
now where jobs are kind of seem to

00:28:11.758 --> 00:28:13.538
be getting, the job market might
be getting tighter and tighter.

00:28:13.538 --> 00:28:15.108
It's like, okay, somebody found a job.

00:28:15.118 --> 00:28:16.728
They probably made some
connections along the way.

00:28:16.768 --> 00:28:18.388
Maybe they can introduce
you to somebody, right?

00:28:18.708 --> 00:28:21.898
Or maybe they came across an
opportunity that wasn't right for

00:28:21.898 --> 00:28:23.098
them, but might be right for you.

00:28:23.558 --> 00:28:26.258
And again, it comes back to what
you said before of like putting

00:28:26.258 --> 00:28:28.178
yourself out there, right?

00:28:28.178 --> 00:28:35.208
You have to, you know, allow yourself to
talk to others and to make others aware

00:28:35.208 --> 00:28:38.602
of who you are and what you're about in
order to find some of these opportunities.

00:28:38.652 --> 00:28:40.912
Natalie: No one can hire
you if you are a secret.

00:28:42.502 --> 00:28:46.792
And one other spin on it in terms
of reaching out to the people who

00:28:46.792 --> 00:28:51.492
you are seeing, who are crushing it
on LinkedIn, these are now people

00:28:51.502 --> 00:28:52.732
who might be able to hire you.

00:28:54.062 --> 00:28:56.902
So every time I see that person
getting promoted and I know that

00:28:56.902 --> 00:29:00.192
someone's in their job search, I
think, "Oh, how can I connect them?"

00:29:00.492 --> 00:29:02.772
Because there might be mutual interest.

00:29:04.730 --> 00:29:04.950
Michael: Right.

00:29:05.630 --> 00:29:05.820
Right.

00:29:06.340 --> 00:29:06.810
Love that.

00:29:06.820 --> 00:29:07.210
That's so great.

00:29:07.450 --> 00:29:10.550
So, one of the things I'm curious
about for this personal board

00:29:10.550 --> 00:29:13.110
of directors, again, I'm like,
I'm so fascinated with it.

00:29:13.110 --> 00:29:17.330
I think it's such a smart idea,
and it's not something that

00:29:17.390 --> 00:29:18.700
has to be overwhelming, right?

00:29:18.810 --> 00:29:21.660
I think on the surface when you're
like, you know, create a personal board

00:29:21.660 --> 00:29:24.940
of directors, you're like, board of
directors, that's a big, big title.

00:29:24.950 --> 00:29:25.500
That's a big thing.

00:29:26.020 --> 00:29:26.600
It's really not.

00:29:26.630 --> 00:29:28.440
It's just a collection
of human beings, right?

00:29:28.440 --> 00:29:32.220
It's just like a f-, you know, not a
friend group, but it's a friend group.

00:29:32.230 --> 00:29:35.360
Like it's a group of people that you
can bring together and you can work

00:29:35.360 --> 00:29:38.710
with one-on-one or maybe multiples
at a time of like, "Here's something

00:29:38.780 --> 00:29:44.510
I, I'm working on." The, one of
the things that I, I think people

00:29:44.510 --> 00:29:48.140
get caught up on is like, what's in
it for, what do I have to give up?

00:29:48.150 --> 00:29:51.230
What do I have to give to the board of
directors in order for them to help me?

00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:55.830
And I think what I found in my own
experience, and I advise some younger

00:29:55.830 --> 00:30:07.480
entrepreneurs, and, to me, that is why,
like seeing them achieve their goals,

00:30:07.510 --> 00:30:09.970
to me, is the value that I get, right?

00:30:09.990 --> 00:30:14.380
It's sharing my experience and maybe
making an introduction for them.

00:30:15.140 --> 00:30:18.240
To me, that is payment, more
than enough payment, right?

00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.080
Th-, I don't, correct me if I'm wrong,
but your personal board of directors

00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:23.560
is not necessarily a paid position.

00:30:24.750 --> 00:30:30.210
So w-, like why would somebody join
your personal board of directors?

00:30:30.360 --> 00:30:31.860
Like what is in it for them?

00:30:31.870 --> 00:30:35.780
Like I think I can explain it, but I'm
curious what your, your take is on why

00:30:35.790 --> 00:30:39.390
people would be willing to do that 'cause
I think one of the things that holds

00:30:39.860 --> 00:30:46.170
us back, and I think, in particular,
for, for dads who, you know, we have

00:30:46.170 --> 00:30:50.360
a lot on our plate already in terms
of like bal-, figuring out we have to

00:30:50.630 --> 00:30:53.790
show up for work and we have to show
up for our family and our friends,

00:30:53.790 --> 00:30:54.750
the people that are closest to us.

00:30:54.750 --> 00:30:58.590
Like, all right, what else do I have
to, this board of directors thing sounds

00:30:58.590 --> 00:31:01.870
great 'cause I think it could help
me, but do I have enough to give them?

00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.520
And, you know, I think it's hard for
us to admit like, yeah, we actually

00:31:06.520 --> 00:31:09.370
probably do have enough to give them.

00:31:09.390 --> 00:31:13.510
We're, we might not realize what we're
giving these people on board of directors.

00:31:13.510 --> 00:31:16.580
So I'm curious, like what is your
take on in terms of like why people

00:31:16.810 --> 00:31:17.960
would join your board of directors?

00:31:18.292 --> 00:31:22.612
Natalie: I think the other perspective
also is that you already have so much

00:31:22.612 --> 00:31:24.952
that you're giving your personal board.

00:31:25.652 --> 00:31:31.592
Because remember, these are people
who are not hired to help you.

00:31:32.002 --> 00:31:33.842
And I do believe in
sometimes hiring the help.

00:31:33.882 --> 00:31:34.532
Don't get me wrong.

00:31:34.552 --> 00:31:37.532
I do believe that sometimes you do
need to hire that coach, you do need

00:31:37.532 --> 00:31:40.942
to hire that advisor, you do need
to hire that person who can help

00:31:40.942 --> 00:31:44.448
you negotiate, you know, a matter.

00:31:44.638 --> 00:31:47.948
However, your personal board
are people who you know.

00:31:48.298 --> 00:31:50.158
These are people who are
in your circle already.

00:31:50.448 --> 00:31:55.068
And as you said, there's fulfillment
in where if this person sees that their

00:31:55.068 --> 00:31:59.748
advice and counsel is actually helping
you get somewhere else, many times these

00:31:59.748 --> 00:32:01.418
people just wanna see you pay it forward.

00:32:02.388 --> 00:32:05.858
These people just wanna know
that when they contact you, that

00:32:05.858 --> 00:32:07.168
you pick up the phone as well.

00:32:07.538 --> 00:32:12.978
So, to me, you know, that's also a
part of the, the exchange, if there

00:32:12.978 --> 00:32:14.858
is one with your personal board.

00:32:15.178 --> 00:32:19.388
It's that they're not pouring into an
empty vessel, that they're seeing that

00:32:19.388 --> 00:32:23.188
you're actually taking their advice, that
you're following up on the introductions

00:32:23.188 --> 00:32:26.508
that they're making for you, that
you're telling them about your wins.

00:32:26.618 --> 00:32:29.038
You're, you're telling them about
your, you know, not so wins.

00:32:29.258 --> 00:32:37.158
You're telling them about, you know, how
you also plan to do well for someone else.

00:32:37.368 --> 00:32:42.108
That there's an element of, "Alright,
if I do well, you will also do

00:32:42.108 --> 00:32:47.488
well." And that I think a lot of
times is what will inspire someone

00:32:47.938 --> 00:32:48.938
to be on that personal board.

00:32:48.938 --> 00:32:51.528
And I just wanna be clear that when
I say a personal board, unlike my

00:32:51.528 --> 00:32:55.098
advisory board, my personal board
doesn't all meet at one time.

00:32:55.738 --> 00:32:59.098
So my advisory board for my business,
yes, we have a standing meeting.

00:32:59.098 --> 00:33:00.788
We meet in fall and we meet in the spring.

00:33:01.088 --> 00:33:04.728
Once again, I love that six months,
you know, and where I have six

00:33:04.728 --> 00:33:07.248
months to implement everything
that I get from the last meeting.

00:33:08.018 --> 00:33:11.328
However, my personal board, these
are just people, as you mentioned,

00:33:11.328 --> 00:33:12.588
a collection of human beings.

00:33:13.088 --> 00:33:19.578
These are my thought partners whenever
I feel as though I have a gap.

00:33:21.028 --> 00:33:24.998
I remember a few years ago, you
know, I was working remotely,

00:33:25.148 --> 00:33:27.198
and once again, I was working…
I was at Stanford at the time.

00:33:27.208 --> 00:33:28.068
I was working remotely.

00:33:28.068 --> 00:33:32.738
I live in Maryland, and of course,
Stanford's in Palo Alto, California.

00:33:33.318 --> 00:33:38.448
And even though I was hired during
COVID and I was working remotely,

00:33:39.338 --> 00:33:42.558
there came a point when, yes,
we're getting back into the office.

00:33:42.998 --> 00:33:45.908
And when I got the phone call that
I had to be back in the office, I

00:33:45.908 --> 00:33:49.738
thought, "Oh my gosh, I don't think
I can do this," because I've now

00:33:49.738 --> 00:33:56.168
structured my life around creating really
strong pillars in my new community.

00:33:57.361 --> 00:34:00.861
You know, during the time that I worked
for Stanford, I had moved from Washington,

00:34:00.861 --> 00:34:06.081
DC to Maryland because my son really
needed a school that would support him.

00:34:06.201 --> 00:34:09.901
He had a lot of challenges, and
we understood eventually through

00:34:09.901 --> 00:34:13.681
testing and through a number of,
you know, analyses that he, that he

00:34:13.681 --> 00:34:15.031
really did have different abilities.

00:34:15.431 --> 00:34:19.551
And so we found a school in Maryland that
loved him, a school that was supporting

00:34:19.551 --> 00:34:20.961
him, a school where he was thriving.

00:34:21.281 --> 00:34:23.931
And I thought to myself, "Gosh,
do I really wanna blow all of

00:34:23.931 --> 00:34:27.961
this up?" And I remember looking
at his Spider-Man backpack

00:34:27.961 --> 00:34:29.901
thinking, "I can't do this to him.

00:34:30.371 --> 00:34:32.711
I need to find a way to work remotely."

00:34:33.111 --> 00:34:38.091
And so it was my personal board
that I reached out to about

00:34:38.201 --> 00:34:39.841
various questions that I had.

00:34:40.441 --> 00:34:44.161
You know, my CEO said, "Look, you have
not made the business case to these people

00:34:44.161 --> 00:34:48.781
as to why you should work remotely."
My insider said, "Yeah, give it up.

00:34:48.811 --> 00:34:52.171
You will have to move out there
because the whole idea of working

00:34:52.171 --> 00:34:56.281
remotely is no longer something that
your institution wants to support.

00:34:56.481 --> 00:35:01.411
And most other businesses are s-, are
now starting to move in that track." My

00:35:01.411 --> 00:35:05.411
contrarian explained to me, "Alright,
so you made the really good, you

00:35:05.411 --> 00:35:10.411
know, case to me as to why you should
stay, but what's in it for Stanford?

00:35:11.261 --> 00:35:17.171
They get out of this." And my H-, so I'll
admit, HR, employment law, and coaching.

00:35:17.491 --> 00:35:19.741
I believe that we should all
have a friend who's a coach.

00:35:22.031 --> 00:35:25.721
Because if you can't afford
coaching, coaches actually coach

00:35:25.761 --> 00:35:27.381
even when they're not supposed to.

00:35:29.131 --> 00:35:32.951
And so I went from a whiny, "I can't move.

00:35:33.011 --> 00:35:36.601
I don't wanna move," to instead
saying, "I live in Maryland,

00:35:36.611 --> 00:35:40.461
which is the third largest state
for life sciences investments.

00:35:41.351 --> 00:35:43.061
We are a life sciences laboratory.

00:35:43.451 --> 00:35:48.061
Living here gives me the opportunity
to create relationships with

00:35:48.101 --> 00:35:51.481
entities that could feed millions
of dollars into our research."

00:35:52.361 --> 00:35:55.211
I was able to continue working
for two more years remotely,

00:35:57.431 --> 00:36:01.957
and so, that's really the power of
what your board of directors can do

00:36:01.957 --> 00:36:06.167
for you when you pull them together and
you call them in that moment of need.

00:36:06.507 --> 00:36:09.427
And when I was able to share with
my board that, "Hey, here's what

00:36:09.437 --> 00:36:11.677
happened," they were all happy for me.

00:36:13.640 --> 00:36:13.850
Michael: Yep.

00:36:14.970 --> 00:36:15.250
Exactly.

00:36:15.780 --> 00:36:16.170
I love that.

00:36:16.170 --> 00:36:22.500
It's such a great example of what
it looks like when it works, right?

00:36:22.550 --> 00:36:30.750
Of like y-, you were able to leverage
your personal board to come up with

00:36:30.750 --> 00:36:34.430
a solution that worked for you and
worked for the, for Stanford, for the

00:36:34.430 --> 00:36:35.590
organization you were working for.

00:36:36.490 --> 00:36:40.200
But there's also a, the other
side of it was your board got

00:36:40.200 --> 00:36:41.420
something out of it too, right?

00:36:41.580 --> 00:36:43.860
They got the satisfaction
of seeing you succeed.

00:36:43.870 --> 00:36:45.800
They got to experience that with you.

00:36:45.980 --> 00:36:47.850
They got to talk through
some of this stuff with you.

00:36:48.840 --> 00:36:54.980
And, which just to me, cements this fact
of like, what's in it for your board?

00:36:55.750 --> 00:36:57.490
There are good human
beings out there, right?

00:36:57.540 --> 00:37:02.120
And if you find them and put
them on your board, that is

00:37:03.110 --> 00:37:04.170
more than enough satisfaction.

00:37:04.170 --> 00:37:09.500
And I would venture to say that your
board would say they got just as much

00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:14.530
value out of being on your board as
you did of having them on your board.

00:37:15.540 --> 00:37:19.030
Even though the board was set up for
you as your personal board of directors,

00:37:19.080 --> 00:37:20.140
they still got something out of it.

00:37:20.160 --> 00:37:23.520
They got satisfaction, they got
experience, they learned something too

00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:25.790
probably in that process as they were
thinking these things through with you.

00:37:25.863 --> 00:37:28.383
Natalie: And I'd also throw out
there, not everyone's looking

00:37:28.383 --> 00:37:30.533
for a transactional relationship.

00:37:31.303 --> 00:37:35.273
So not everyone's, you know,
tuned into WIIFM, what's in it

00:37:35.273 --> 00:37:39.433
for me, when they're thinking
about helping another human being.

00:37:39.913 --> 00:37:42.333
As you said, there are some
good human beings out there.

00:37:42.873 --> 00:37:43.793
And I'm not a jerk.

00:37:43.813 --> 00:37:48.203
I mean, when my personal board of
directors need something from me, I'm

00:37:48.293 --> 00:37:52.143
that person who can sometimes give them
the employment law advice that they need.

00:37:52.453 --> 00:37:57.223
I mostly, so recently I was talking
to the CEO who sits on my board, and

00:37:57.543 --> 00:38:02.183
on my personal board, that is, and
she shared with me a vulnerability.

00:38:02.523 --> 00:38:06.383
And she actually thanked me
because I'm that person who

00:38:06.403 --> 00:38:08.353
provides positive feedback to her.

00:38:08.643 --> 00:38:13.103
I'm that person who I'll listen to her,
I'll, you know, hear her situations,

00:38:13.553 --> 00:38:15.893
and I'll think, "Well, is this possible?

00:38:16.283 --> 00:38:20.673
What have you thought about this?" And I
guess the coach in me is always thinking,

00:38:20.703 --> 00:38:27.173
"Okay, what if?" And so even though it's
definitely not transactional, I feel as

00:38:27.173 --> 00:38:30.403
though I get so much more from her than,
you know, she gets from me technically.

00:38:31.823 --> 00:38:35.813
It's our friendship that
really is the exchange.

00:38:37.808 --> 00:38:38.038
Michael: Right.

00:38:38.548 --> 00:38:39.318
That's a great point.

00:38:39.808 --> 00:38:49.338
It's, yes, they, they're playing a role
on your board, but there's also the

00:38:49.338 --> 00:38:51.398
relationship is more important, right?

00:38:51.458 --> 00:38:58.298
And whether it's friendship or
mentorship or however you, whatever

00:38:58.298 --> 00:39:01.098
role they kind of fit in that, at
the end of the day, you're building

00:39:01.098 --> 00:39:03.058
relationships with these people, right?

00:39:03.328 --> 00:39:06.658
And you find the right r-, you find
the right relationships with the

00:39:06.658 --> 00:39:10.878
right people to make your board, and
maybe you don't f-, you know, maybe

00:39:10.878 --> 00:39:14.098
you bring someone on your board and
they're not the right fit for you and,

00:39:14.178 --> 00:39:18.668
you know, that their role changes and
maybe you replace them on the board.

00:39:18.698 --> 00:39:22.528
There's ways to handle that, but it's
like, at the end of the day, you're

00:39:22.538 --> 00:39:25.648
build-, it's just like building any
other relationship, but there's a certain

00:39:25.648 --> 00:39:27.858
purpose for your board of directors.

00:39:27.858 --> 00:39:29.148
Would that be a, a fair
assessment fair assessment?

00:39:29.411 --> 00:39:31.911
Natalie: And, you know, I was j-, it
was interesting, I just realized that

00:39:31.911 --> 00:39:37.153
I was I was talking to one of my, my
other board of directors yesterday

00:39:37.163 --> 00:39:39.743
who is my HR person on the board.

00:39:40.123 --> 00:39:44.000
And, you know, she works for
a major entertainment company.

00:39:44.710 --> 00:39:50.140
And I was just listening to her talk about
how her daughter, unfortunately, you know,

00:39:50.150 --> 00:39:52.580
had an injury and was getting surgery.

00:39:53.150 --> 00:39:57.010
And just being that voice
of listening and care.

00:39:57.950 --> 00:39:59.230
Once again, it's the friendship.

00:39:59.830 --> 00:40:05.300
And so, yeah, I'm a big believer
that I might not be able to

00:40:05.310 --> 00:40:09.000
exchange gold with you, but I can
definitely exchange heart with you.

00:40:12.426 --> 00:40:12.496
Michael: I love that.

00:40:12.496 --> 00:40:15.366
And there's something else in what you
just said that really jumped out at

00:40:15.366 --> 00:40:21.136
me that I want to highlight, which was
you are, you have a ton of experience

00:40:21.166 --> 00:40:25.626
in HR already, but you also have
an HR person on your board, right?

00:40:25.626 --> 00:40:27.266
On your personal board, right?

00:40:28.236 --> 00:40:35.796
That, to me, is a great reminder of like,
you could be the best at your job, but

00:40:35.796 --> 00:40:38.096
there's still somebody else with other
experiences that could be valuable to you.

00:40:39.116 --> 00:40:44.776
And you, you can't just fill up your board
with what you think your weaknesses are.

00:40:44.776 --> 00:40:46.416
You also need to
supplement your strengths.

00:40:47.676 --> 00:40:52.766
And it just, it just jumped out at me
like, wait, you are, when I think of

00:40:52.766 --> 00:40:56.086
HR, I think of you, but you also just
thought of somebody else to put on your

00:40:56.086 --> 00:40:58.876
board to talk, you know, to help you
talk through some of these things 'cause

00:40:59.036 --> 00:41:00.966
they have different experiences, right?

00:41:00.966 --> 00:41:03.526
And they might have different
perspectives on that.

00:41:04.846 --> 00:41:07.996
There's so much I want to talk about,
but I've got like two more quick

00:41:07.996 --> 00:41:10.586
questions I want to run by you before
we get into the, the speed round.

00:41:12.456 --> 00:41:19.216
For someone who wants more meaningful work
and/or finding more meaning in the work

00:41:19.216 --> 00:41:22.956
that they're doing currently, but doesn't
want to blow up their life to get there,

00:41:23.896 --> 00:41:25.236
what do you suggest as a first step?

00:41:25.683 --> 00:41:28.273
Natalie: I would really be clear
about what does more meaning mean?

00:41:29.273 --> 00:41:31.983
So, for some people, more
meaning could be more money.

00:41:33.173 --> 00:41:36.523
I was talking to my son's godfather
recently, and we were, you know,

00:41:36.573 --> 00:41:40.826
talking about his most recent
l-, his most recent job move.

00:41:41.256 --> 00:41:45.426
And he was lamenting that he's
never really worked in a place

00:41:45.426 --> 00:41:46.726
that really appreciated him.

00:41:47.006 --> 00:41:48.576
And I said, "Well, let's
stop and think about that.

00:41:48.816 --> 00:41:52.196
When you worked at the Capitol, you
actually had a great boss who really

00:41:52.196 --> 00:41:55.946
did appreciate you." And he said, "But
I didn't make the money I wanted." I

00:41:55.946 --> 00:41:57.226
said, "Well, that's the question, right?

00:41:57.266 --> 00:41:59.516
Like, what does me-, more
meaningful mean to you?

00:41:59.516 --> 00:42:00.586
What does more fulfilling?

00:42:00.746 --> 00:42:04.516
What does appreciation look like for
you?" Because like I said, you can

00:42:04.516 --> 00:42:08.396
have a definition of a word that I
might have a completely definition for.

00:42:08.396 --> 00:42:11.506
So I think we've gotta be very clear
first about what does that more

00:42:11.506 --> 00:42:13.446
meaningful career look like for us.

00:42:14.016 --> 00:42:14.786
And there's no shame.

00:42:14.786 --> 00:42:19.001
If it's more money that we're
looking, hey, I say go for it.

00:42:20.912 --> 00:42:21.242
Michael: Right.

00:42:21.319 --> 00:42:26.099
Natalie: you're clear about what that
more meaningful looks like, I say

00:42:26.099 --> 00:42:27.839
start having conversations early.

00:42:28.179 --> 00:42:31.729
You know, start figuring out, like,
what's happening in your organization.

00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:35.349
You know, who might be working on
something that might be, you know,

00:42:35.359 --> 00:42:39.849
the next big product, the next
big launch that you might wanna

00:42:39.849 --> 00:42:42.309
be a part of, if that's what s- if
that's what you're interested in.

00:42:43.879 --> 00:42:47.209
If you've looked internally and you've
just found that, you know, it's a culture

00:42:47.209 --> 00:42:51.039
that just doesn't align with you, it's
a culture that you find toxic, or it's

00:42:51.039 --> 00:42:54.689
just a mission that you don't really
care about anymore or never really did

00:42:54.689 --> 00:42:59.269
to begin with , I believe that you can
start looking externally in terms of

00:42:59.579 --> 00:43:01.519
creating and increasing your visibility.

00:43:02.509 --> 00:43:07.749
Remember, people can't hire you,
people can't consider you for

00:43:07.779 --> 00:43:09.699
anything if you are a secret.

00:43:10.249 --> 00:43:14.419
And so when you start getting out there
and going to your industry conferences,

00:43:14.719 --> 00:43:17.739
even if you have to pay for those
industry conferences yourself, they are

00:43:17.739 --> 00:43:20.579
an investment in your external exposure.

00:43:20.739 --> 00:43:23.979
The people who you are going to meet,
the people who are going to make

00:43:23.989 --> 00:43:27.479
introductions for you, the people who
are gonna add to your thought knowledge.

00:43:28.739 --> 00:43:31.379
A lot of people think, "Oh, well, if
I send my people to conferences, I'm

00:43:31.379 --> 00:43:36.459
allowing my people to be poached." Not
necessarily, because your people are

00:43:36.519 --> 00:43:41.049
going to conferences for their, you
know, for their own self-development

00:43:41.049 --> 00:43:43.199
and to understand more about your
industry, and they're bringing

00:43:43.209 --> 00:43:45.269
that back into your organization.

00:43:46.259 --> 00:43:49.239
When I used to send my people to
conferences, I'd always say, "I need you

00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:52.459
to, you know, come back and actually give
us a, a one-pager of, like, what were the

00:43:52.459 --> 00:43:56.159
highlights of what you, you gathered."
I also wanted to see the PowerPoints,

00:43:56.619 --> 00:43:57.979
because everything now is digital.

00:43:58.199 --> 00:43:59.449
Share all of the content.

00:43:59.449 --> 00:44:03.809
We created a library or a vault, a digital
vault for our organization because of the

00:44:03.809 --> 00:44:05.399
conferences that people were going to.

00:44:07.109 --> 00:44:12.699
And once you are at these conferences,
as an attendee or as a speaker, you are

00:44:12.699 --> 00:44:18.029
now positioning yourself in such a way
that you're now seen as a thought leader.

00:44:18.219 --> 00:44:21.679
You're now seen as an industry
expert and someone that other

00:44:21.679 --> 00:44:22.979
people want on their teams.

00:44:23.269 --> 00:44:27.169
So that's one way to, you know, start
increasing your external visibility aside

00:44:27.169 --> 00:44:31.349
from just simply, you know, posting to
different roles and, you know, hoping,

00:44:31.369 --> 00:44:33.089
posting and praying about roles.

00:44:33.809 --> 00:44:37.379
You know, I think that also on top of it,
it's the networking that you're doing.

00:44:37.949 --> 00:44:42.549
You know, there's a really great recruiter
that I follow on LinkedIn who always

00:44:42.549 --> 00:44:47.359
shares that your next role most likely,
if you're already, you know, at that

00:44:47.359 --> 00:44:50.939
director, VP level, your next role most
likely is not coming from LinkedIn.

00:44:51.339 --> 00:44:55.279
Your next role most likely is coming
from a recruiter reaching out to you.

00:44:55.999 --> 00:45:00.219
Most likely it's coming from someone
in your network who knows what you do.

00:45:01.119 --> 00:45:04.799
I had a colleague who recently got laid
off by Starbucks, and he had n-, he had

00:45:04.799 --> 00:45:08.909
no, like, pardon the pun, but there was
no sour milk in his coffee about it.

00:45:09.229 --> 00:45:12.049
He felt like, "Look, I was
one of the last people hired.

00:45:12.049 --> 00:45:13.389
They tried a whole new initiative.

00:45:13.459 --> 00:45:14.259
It didn't work.

00:45:14.339 --> 00:45:17.479
So be it." He didn't
send out not one resume.

00:45:18.439 --> 00:45:19.309
He just networked.

00:45:19.389 --> 00:45:23.079
He let people in his network know
that he was now looking for, for work.

00:45:24.139 --> 00:45:28.079
And an awesome law firm picked him
up because he had all of this great

00:45:28.079 --> 00:45:33.489
government relations experience, and
that is most likely how the next role is

00:45:33.489 --> 00:45:35.609
going to come to you in this day and age.

00:45:38.184 --> 00:45:38.364
Michael: Yep.

00:45:38.694 --> 00:45:40.124
Visibility again, I love that.

00:45:40.904 --> 00:45:42.594
So last question before
we get to the speed round.

00:45:42.904 --> 00:45:47.894
For dads that are listening right now
who just might feel stuck or overlooked

00:45:47.894 --> 00:45:51.654
or just tired, I'm not talking like
meaningful work, I'm just, they're just

00:45:51.654 --> 00:45:55.714
feeling kind of down on what they're
doing, what would you want them to hear?

00:45:56.775 --> 00:45:59.725
Natalie: What is making you feel down?

00:46:00.555 --> 00:46:04.075
What is taking away from your light?

00:46:04.525 --> 00:46:07.505
Like, what is it that's no
longer fulfilling for you?

00:46:08.275 --> 00:46:10.015
Is it the hours that you're working?

00:46:10.065 --> 00:46:12.045
Is it the sacrifices that you're making?

00:46:12.055 --> 00:46:13.635
Is it the pay that you're making?

00:46:14.015 --> 00:46:17.535
Is it the work, the actual su-, you
know, substantive work that you're

00:46:17.535 --> 00:46:19.755
doing that no longer resonates with you?

00:46:19.775 --> 00:46:23.235
What is it that's making you feel
as though this just isn't right,

00:46:23.275 --> 00:46:24.555
this just isn't working for me?

00:46:25.075 --> 00:46:27.705
And as you said, it's so important to make
sure that we're not just, like, blowing

00:46:27.705 --> 00:46:33.455
up our lives because we've experienced a
moment of feeling like there's a signal.

00:46:34.945 --> 00:46:37.915
It's so important to have these
conversations to figure out,

00:46:37.915 --> 00:46:42.745
okay, so how are other people
negotiating making a change?

00:46:43.255 --> 00:46:47.715
How are other people, let's say,
you know, negotiating how they're

00:46:47.715 --> 00:46:49.375
finding better work assignments?

00:46:50.115 --> 00:46:53.795
And so I'm a really big believer in,
you know, learning vicariously through

00:46:53.795 --> 00:46:58.115
others and allowing other people's
experiences to inform my experiences.

00:46:58.375 --> 00:47:02.225
I can't necessarily imprint their
experiences, but what I can do is I can

00:47:02.225 --> 00:47:04.445
at least say, "Alright, there's a format."

00:47:04.775 --> 00:47:08.415
I'd also say start having the
conversations and start putting together

00:47:08.415 --> 00:47:12.875
that personal board to help you think
about the strategy that you could use

00:47:12.875 --> 00:47:17.355
to either understand what could you
do in your current environment and

00:47:17.355 --> 00:47:18.875
what's available for you externally.

00:47:20.680 --> 00:47:20.860
Michael: Yeah.

00:47:21.620 --> 00:47:22.000
Love that.

00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:27.120
I think there's this element of
slowing down in your answer, right?

00:47:27.130 --> 00:47:32.970
Of like, y-, you know, you said at
the beginning of what is bringing

00:47:32.970 --> 00:47:34.130
you down in the moment, right?

00:47:34.300 --> 00:47:37.370
And it's kind of like taking a step
back and analyzing, 'cause I think

00:47:37.420 --> 00:47:40.140
oftentimes we get in our own heads, right?

00:47:40.210 --> 00:47:45.510
And it's, we make things out to be
worse than maybe they are, or we feel

00:47:46.610 --> 00:47:48.890
more overwhelmed because, like, I
don't know how to get out of this,

00:47:48.910 --> 00:47:51.540
and we just, and it just kind of
builds up and snowballs into this

00:47:51.540 --> 00:47:52.800
thing that we just can't control.

00:47:52.800 --> 00:47:57.720
But then we take a step back and we
start to think it through, slow ourselves

00:47:57.720 --> 00:48:00.160
down, realize, okay, there are options.

00:48:00.170 --> 00:48:03.100
There are ways, steps
that we can take, right?

00:48:03.130 --> 00:48:07.080
And having, like you said, having that
personal board of directors now can help

00:48:07.080 --> 00:48:14.560
you slow those things down and help you
put more of a, take some emotion out of

00:48:14.810 --> 00:48:20.760
the thought process so that you can think
more logically in terms of what is holding

00:48:20.760 --> 00:48:24.190
you back or putting you down in the moment
so that you can figure out, well, okay,

00:48:24.190 --> 00:48:27.750
what steps can I take, right, 'cause
you're not gonna take 30 steps at once.

00:48:27.750 --> 00:48:29.270
You gotta figure out what
that first step is, right?

00:48:29.270 --> 00:48:30.210
And, you know.

00:48:30.590 --> 00:48:34.680
And so I, y-, I love your answer because
it's just, it's so straightforward

00:48:34.690 --> 00:48:37.640
of, okay, think about why.

00:48:37.700 --> 00:48:41.870
Think of the why first, and then
how do you layer on top of that?

00:48:42.560 --> 00:48:45.940
And if you have this board of
directors, like, there's a shortcut.

00:48:46.821 --> 00:48:50.571
Natalie: Here's a good example of
how and where it is so important

00:48:50.581 --> 00:48:54.151
to take that pause and to get
insights from other people.

00:48:54.821 --> 00:48:57.811
Let's go back to 2008, 2009.

00:48:58.951 --> 00:49:02.291
At that time, I was creating
these video vignettes about the

00:49:02.291 --> 00:49:05.601
workplace because they were a part
of, like, a training curriculum.

00:49:06.461 --> 00:49:08.831
And I'd post them on YouTube
because YouTube was free.

00:49:09.491 --> 00:49:12.771
And this one video, in about
two days, got 100,000 views.

00:49:13.421 --> 00:49:19.593
And YouTube reached out to "Well, would
you consider doing some advertisements?

00:49:19.593 --> 00:49:25.013
You know, doing ad space on, on your
YouTube channel?" And I thought, "No.

00:49:25.213 --> 00:49:26.363
My work is serious.

00:49:26.403 --> 00:49:27.453
I'm not doing that."

00:49:27.643 --> 00:49:29.183
I didn't have a personal board back then.

00:49:30.643 --> 00:49:33.333
I could have been a YouTuber.

00:49:35.699 --> 00:49:41.299
H-, if I knew what YouTube's potential
w-, was, had I had someone that I could

00:49:41.299 --> 00:49:47.099
have bounced ideas off of, pressure
tested this with, had someone give

00:49:47.109 --> 00:49:52.016
me a very different and unique ex-,
perspective, I would've been able to

00:49:52.016 --> 00:49:54.286
get out of my own head and my own way.

00:49:55.066 --> 00:49:56.226
And who, you know, who knows?

00:49:56.226 --> 00:50:02.386
I could've been the m-, the Mrs.
Beast of the workplace on YouTube.

00:50:04.432 --> 00:50:05.132
Michael: That's great.

00:50:05.382 --> 00:50:05.992
I love it.

00:50:06.372 --> 00:50:07.472
It's interesting.

00:50:07.662 --> 00:50:12.412
I mean, it's fascinating 'cause you,
impossible to know, like, what the

00:50:12.412 --> 00:50:17.482
future is, right, but you only had
your own perspective there, right?

00:50:17.482 --> 00:50:23.012
You didn't have other perspectives of
maybe people that in that space could be

00:50:23.012 --> 00:50:27.752
like, "Oh, well, this is going to be the
next big thing. Here's why. Here's…"

00:50:27.782 --> 00:50:29.202
You could see the numbers starting to go.

00:50:29.842 --> 00:50:31.982
Like, like you said, it's like
you're in your own head and it's

00:50:31.982 --> 00:50:32.980
just hard to, to break free of that.

00:50:33.030 --> 00:50:38.080
Natalie: If I had my insider, I would
have been able to make a very different

00:50:38.080 --> 00:50:42.760
decision back in 2009 that would have
Natalie in a very different place in 2026.

00:50:44.594 --> 00:50:44.824
Michael: Yeah.

00:50:45.964 --> 00:50:46.824
Yeah, great story.

00:50:46.824 --> 00:50:47.564
I appreciate that.

00:50:47.914 --> 00:50:51.704
Alright, so we're gonna go from
the wild world of YouTube to the

00:50:51.704 --> 00:50:53.204
wild world of our speed round here.

00:50:53.394 --> 00:50:56.264
Five quick questions for you,
starting with what's the first kids

00:50:56.264 --> 00:50:57.724
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:50:57.980 --> 00:50:58.630
Natalie: Sesame Street.

00:51:00.402 --> 00:51:01.212
Michael: Sesame Street?

00:51:01.262 --> 00:51:01.542
Okay.

00:51:02.322 --> 00:51:03.562
The ultimate classic, yeah.

00:51:04.312 --> 00:51:04.952
Natalie: Absolutely.

00:51:04.982 --> 00:51:06.782
I mean, who doesn't
love a little Big Bird?

00:51:08.920 --> 00:51:09.680
Michael: That's right.

00:51:10.030 --> 00:51:10.860
That's right.

00:51:11.420 --> 00:51:11.794
What was your very first job?

00:51:11.844 --> 00:51:12.864
Natalie: Newspaper carrier.

00:51:14.494 --> 00:51:16.834
Yep, New York Newsday out on Long Island.

00:51:17.344 --> 00:51:20.324
It probably was one of the
worst business models ever

00:51:23.070 --> 00:51:24.806
because I didn't get paid.

00:51:25.486 --> 00:51:31.366
They basically h-, hired, you know,
preteens and teenagers to deliver

00:51:31.366 --> 00:51:37.036
newspapers, and we had to give them a
certain cut of, you know, whatever we

00:51:37.056 --> 00:51:40.833
collected from our newspaper clients.

00:51:41.163 --> 00:51:44.913
And so after about two or three weeks,
my mom started asking, "So, you know,

00:51:44.913 --> 00:51:49.043
where, where's your actual paycheck?"
And I said, "I don't think I actually

00:51:49.063 --> 00:51:52.833
have one." And so my mom called the
company and said, "Well, wait a second.

00:51:53.143 --> 00:51:55.223
How does she get paid?" And they
said, "Oh, well, she gets to

00:51:55.223 --> 00:51:56.863
keep the tips that she gets."

00:51:57.833 --> 00:52:00.763
Now, there were some people who
were in arrears who hadn't paid

00:52:00.763 --> 00:52:02.113
for their newspaper in weeks.

00:52:02.523 --> 00:52:06.743
So as you can imagine, my tips were
going toward paying for those arrears.

00:52:07.136 --> 00:52:09.023
Needless to say, that didn't last long.

00:52:10.970 --> 00:52:11.250
Michael: Wow.

00:52:11.920 --> 00:52:12.960
Wow, that's wild.

00:52:13.230 --> 00:52:15.370
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:52:15.370 --> 00:52:16.980
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:52:18.045 --> 00:52:19.548
Natalie: I think I'd
go with the first one.

00:52:21.529 --> 00:52:22.609
Michael: Toddler-sized T-Rex?

00:52:22.820 --> 00:52:24.380
Natalie: Absolutely, because
the other one might be too big.

00:52:27.839 --> 00:52:28.369
Michael: That's fair.

00:52:29.159 --> 00:52:29.729
That's fair, yeah.

00:52:29.729 --> 00:52:33.869
T-Rex-sized toddler would be
very large, to say the least.

00:52:33.932 --> 00:52:34.992
Natalie: I can actually play
with the first one, right?

00:52:34.992 --> 00:52:36.212
If I'm hearing this correctly.

00:52:37.827 --> 00:52:38.147
Michael: Right.

00:52:38.147 --> 00:52:42.347
I mean, I don't know how a T-Rex behaves,
but at least they're toddler-sized,

00:52:42.347 --> 00:52:43.717
so maybe you can wrangle it, but…

00:52:44.096 --> 00:52:47.476
Natalie: I could, you know, maybe put it
in like, you know, my garage or something.

00:52:49.245 --> 00:52:49.345
Michael: Right.

00:52:50.725 --> 00:52:52.045
Close the doors and hope for the best.

00:52:54.515 --> 00:52:57.585
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:52:57.848 --> 00:53:02.558
Natalie: Losing My Religion
by R.E.M. I mean, come on.

00:53:02.768 --> 00:53:05.918
That is like one of the most
like emotional songs out there.

00:53:06.378 --> 00:53:06.668
You know?

00:53:06.668 --> 00:53:09.318
He says, "I'm losing my religion."

00:53:12.515 --> 00:53:13.515
Michael: Great song, yeah.

00:53:13.865 --> 00:53:15.185
Iconic from the early '90s.

00:53:15.965 --> 00:53:18.225
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:53:18.235 --> 00:53:19.605
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:53:22.192 --> 00:53:22.522
Natalie: Crazy glue.

00:53:23.178 --> 00:53:23.701
Crazy glue.

00:53:24.208 --> 00:53:26.938
I'm a mom, so I just never know when

00:53:27.248 --> 00:53:28.368
something's going to break.

00:53:30.569 --> 00:53:30.889
Michael: Yep.

00:53:31.349 --> 00:53:31.969
That's a great point.

00:53:32.588 --> 00:53:36.808
Natalie: But, I've had people, I've
had people whose shoes have, like,

00:53:36.808 --> 00:53:38.528
separated, like the sole came off.

00:53:39.685 --> 00:53:40.855
I say, "I can fix that for you."

00:53:42.955 --> 00:53:46.595
And in that moment, I'm sure
there's, like, that moment where

00:53:46.595 --> 00:53:51.235
people think at the same time, "This
is odd, but hey, this is actually

00:53:51.315 --> 00:53:53.775
very useful." No judgment, right?

00:53:53.896 --> 00:53:54.796
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:53:55.606 --> 00:53:56.476
Right, exactly.

00:53:56.976 --> 00:53:57.536
That's smart.

00:53:57.946 --> 00:53:58.366
Love that.

00:53:58.686 --> 00:54:01.236
Natalie, before we wrap up, I wanna
make sure people know where to find you

00:54:01.236 --> 00:54:02.496
and how to go deeper into your work.

00:54:03.226 --> 00:54:04.776
What are you working on right
now, and where should people go

00:54:04.776 --> 00:54:05.788
if they want to connect with you?

00:54:05.828 --> 00:54:06.318
Natalie: A pleasure.

00:54:07.435 --> 00:54:11.585
So my company's website is questei.org.

00:54:11.595 --> 00:54:15.065
So, Quest Employment Initiatives, we
are an investigations firm that, you

00:54:15.065 --> 00:54:19.285
know, goes into workplaces that may
have instances of, or complaints of

00:54:19.285 --> 00:54:22.172
discrimination, harassment, retaliation.

00:54:22.582 --> 00:54:27.082
And, you know, there is a, a risk
assessment that I have on the site now.

00:54:27.082 --> 00:54:30.632
And where if individuals, and
particularly companies, wanna make

00:54:30.632 --> 00:54:36.828
sure that their organizations are good
space in terms of being low risk when

00:54:36.828 --> 00:54:40.158
it comes to being regulatory compliant.

00:54:41.098 --> 00:54:42.878
Once again, it's a very short assessment.

00:54:43.388 --> 00:54:44.318
Check yourself out.

00:54:44.368 --> 00:54:48.178
If it's, if your scores are not what
you want them to be, give me a call.

00:54:48.848 --> 00:54:52.198
I would love to have the conversation with
you as to how do we get you to a place

00:54:52.208 --> 00:54:53.678
of, you know, once again, great scores.

00:54:55.358 --> 00:54:58.688
And then there's also the na-, the
natalieholderspeaks.com website.

00:54:59.058 --> 00:55:03.098
So natalieholderspeaks.com, that's
where companies will reach out to me

00:55:03.098 --> 00:55:08.228
to have a better sense of or to, you
know, create a workshop around issues

00:55:08.228 --> 00:55:10.278
like the personal board of directors.

00:55:10.278 --> 00:55:11.368
How do you construct one?

00:55:11.368 --> 00:55:15.318
How do you ensure that the one that
you're creating actually will help you

00:55:15.318 --> 00:55:17.118
become more innovative in your workspace?

00:55:17.648 --> 00:55:20.788
And so those are two places
where you can find me.

00:55:23.728 --> 00:55:23.818
Michael: Awesome.

00:55:23.818 --> 00:55:24.198
I love that.

00:55:24.198 --> 00:55:26.158
We'll put those in the sh-,
links to those in the show notes.

00:55:26.158 --> 00:55:26.838
I appreciate that.

00:55:27.498 --> 00:55:29.318
Natalie, thank you so much
for this conversation.

00:55:30.508 --> 00:55:35.338
I learned so much in this, but in
a way that is motivating, right?

00:55:35.348 --> 00:55:39.668
Sometimes I have a conversation and
I, you know, I can l, I learn from

00:55:39.668 --> 00:55:44.048
people, and it's like, okay, now I've
got some work to do, and it's, you know,

00:55:44.118 --> 00:55:46.778
I feel, it feels almost overwhelming.

00:55:47.018 --> 00:55:51.528
This was a conversation to me that
was, that highlighted challenges,

00:55:51.758 --> 00:55:57.948
but then gave very practical ways to
address those challenges in a way that

00:55:57.988 --> 00:56:03.638
makes me want to, like, immediately
go and start implementing them, right?

00:56:03.648 --> 00:56:07.798
Like, this personal board of directors
idea and putting yourself out there more.

00:56:07.878 --> 00:56:10.628
You make it achievable, right?

00:56:10.698 --> 00:56:15.988
And I appreciate that you gave us a way
to think about some of these things a

00:56:15.988 --> 00:56:19.948
little bit differently and gave us a
way to actually do something about them.

00:56:20.918 --> 00:56:22.378
So thank you for coming
on and sharing that.

00:56:22.398 --> 00:56:23.508
I really appreciate it.

00:56:23.588 --> 00:56:25.008
I, re-, appreciate you being here.

00:56:25.298 --> 00:56:27.438
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:56:27.438 --> 00:56:30.338
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

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head to gaptogig.com and subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

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It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

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and what really matters right now.

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And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

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dad who might need to hear it.

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Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:56:44.278 --> 00:56:46.118
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.