Kurt Bush on Redefining Success as a Working Dad

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Kurt: I think there's few people who feel
true agency over setting those goals.

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I, I think there's a lot of people,
especially in leadership world or

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corporate world, and honestly parenting
too, like parenting can be the wi-,

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kind of the Wild, Wild West of shame and
what you think you're supposed to do.

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Y-, you know, I, I, f-, I think very
few of us actually understand like

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I'm ridiculously in charge of my life.

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And, and that, that means
how I define success.

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That means what I, what
I go towards for goals.

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You know, apart from what like, again,
what we think a good parent should do.

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Maybe that aligns for us, maybe it
doesn't, but getting clear on that feels

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like, I mean, that feels like the work.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here, we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today's guest is Kurt Bush.

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Kurt has spent the last couple of
decades leading in very different

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worlds, from manufacturing to
nonprofit organizations, and what

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he kept seeing was the same pattern.

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A lot of leaders look successful
on the outside, but underneath,

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they're exhausted, disconnected,
and just trying to keep up.

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He's now a certified internal family
systems practitioner, a trauma-informed

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coach, and the co-founder of
Brimstone Coaching Group, where he

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helps leaders move beyond that fake
it till you make it mindset into

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something more sustainable and real.

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He's also the co-author of Live Fully,
Lead Authentically, where he explores the

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connection between self-awareness and the
way we show up in our work and at home.

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Kurt, I'm really excited
to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Kurt: Yeah, Michael, thanks for having me.

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Great to be here.

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Michael: I appreciate that.

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So one thing that stood out to
me right away is this idea that

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a lot of people aren't actually
thriving, they're just surviving and

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getting really good at hiding it.

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When you see or say that most leaders
are surviving, not thriving, what are

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the signals you look for that tell
you someone's in that place even if

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everything sort of looks fine on paper?

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Kurt: Yeah, that's a
great question, Michael.

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I, I think one of the immediate signs
is like, if, if I'm asking myself what

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are the signs, am I, am I taking out my
sort of exhaustion or frustration on, on

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people and places that they don't belong?

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W-, we like to use the metaphor
of like, am I kicking the dog

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when I get home from work?

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I have a dog.

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I love my dog.

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I would never kick my dog.

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But the metaphor of like, my
dog didn't do anything wrong.

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Am I gonna come home and metaphorically
kick the dog 'cause, 'cause I, I

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don't know what else to do with
my overwhelm or my exhaustion?

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That, that's a, a really quick, easy
sign of like people lashing out in places

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that, that the lashing doesn't belong.

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Michael: Right.

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Why do you think that this is so common?

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Like, I talk to a lot of dads, right,
and sometimes, like, we have our, some

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days go well, some days get frustrating.

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And it could be something at work, it
could be something at home, it could

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be something altogether different.

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But, you know, a lot of people
listening, I think, are high performers.

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And so from the outside things look good,
but inside something still feels off.

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Why do you think that disconnect
is so common these days?

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Kurt: Yeah, that's a really good question.

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And I, I'm not exactly a sociologist,
but, but my, my theory is this, that,

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that we have kind of been programmed
and coded to perform success.

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Y-, you know, like perform success in
a sense that we are constantly seeking

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after that kind of next title, next
promotion, next salary increase, next

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home, next boat, whatever it is, we
just kind of perform that success.

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But, but oftentimes that's, that
success that we're performing is

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misaligned with who we really are or,
or misaligned with what we really want.

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And that's different for everybody.

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But

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Michael: Right.

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Kurt: I think that misalignment
is where the trouble comes in.

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That misalignment is where
the exhaustion comes in.

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But I, I really do th-, like, nobody wakes
up and says, "I wanna be exhausted today."

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Nobody wakes up and says, "I wanna
perform success." I, I think we just learn

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at a really early age that performing
success is what we are supposed to do,

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and that that's kind of the normative
Western American kind of path to success.

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Michael: Right.

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Do you think it's like we have this
inclination to always pursue more?

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Like, there's never…

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what is enough, right?

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It's like we have, we struggle to be
like, "Okay, we've now achieved that

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thing. We can take a deep breath," right?

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It seems like we're always trying to

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get to the next level, whether
that's at work or, you know, maybe

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it's we want our kids to become star
athletes or we want them to, you know,

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become the, the whiz kid in school.

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And so we're always trying to do more
for them, to them, whatever it may be.

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But also, you know, ourselves,
like we can't just be satisfied

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with the success that we have.

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We always, a-, and there's nothing
wrong with ambition, right?

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Like we

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: to continue
to have ambition there.

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We need to have a purpose, but it's,
is it our purpose is misaligned or is

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it just the, we can't, we're almost
like addicted to the next thing?

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Kurt: Yeah, that's a good question.

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My, my theory on this is well, let
me start by saying I agree with you.

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Ambition is not bad, right?

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Achieving is not bad.

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Wanting, like, I have a 16-year-old
and a 13-year-old, wanting them

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to get straight A's is not bad.

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I, I think what you described was
a, a set of sort of external goals

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or achievements that, that we hope
makes us feel fulfilled or content.

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And, and I, I think the reality
is that, that we're asking those

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things to do something that they
can't because it's, it's extrinsic.

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It, it isn't, is, it isn't in my control.

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Like, a-, as much as I can motivate my
16-year-old to get straight A's, I really

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can't do anything to have him get, like,
I really can't control my 16-year-old.

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He, he got straight A's, and
I imagine at some point as he

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gets closer to graduating, he's
not gonna get straight A's, and

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there's nothing I can do about it.

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So I, I think agency has
something to do with that when

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we're trying to measure success.

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I think the, those things that we
don't really have agency over, I

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think actually de-, demotivate.

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I think it actually kind of has the
opposite effect for us because I think

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then we kind of get stuck in this reminder
of how little I have control over it.

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Well, then, then I must not be a good
parent, or then I must not be a good

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dad, or I must not be a good whatever.

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I, I think the best metrics of
success, the best, the best way to

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measure, like, how am I doing, how
am I feeling, is to look at what we

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would call inputs versus outputs.

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Outputs are good.

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We have to measure output.

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I have to keep track of
my kids' grades, right?

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I have to do that.

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I want my kid to be a successful
cross country runner, right?

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However, I again have
very little input on that.

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But what I do have input on is how am
I gonna show up as a dad when he leaves

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the cross country field, you know,
30 seconds shy of his goal, right?

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How, how am I gonna show up when a meeting
that I have at, in, in my workplace

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goes sideways and I lose control of it?

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How then am I gonna show up?

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So I, I think if, if, if we could make
a shift away from measuring our success

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and our effectiveness and our purpose,
if we can get away from the sort of

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outputs and measure our inputs because
we can control them, I, I think that sort

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of shifts how we think about ourselves.

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Michael: I love that.

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I love how the idea of not just
focusing on the input, but the

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specific input of how we show up,

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: right?

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'Cause that is something
we control, right?

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: And it does, it can, if done
right, have a positive net effect,

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not just on yourself, but others.

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And like, for me, personally, I think
I've realized as my kids have grown

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older that ultimately my goal as a
father is to not just set them up for

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success, but set them up for success in
a way that they can spread that further,

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: right?

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It's like how will, what impact
will they make on those around them,

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those that are important to them,
and what positivity are they going

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to, to bring into the world, right?

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And that starts with how
I show up for them, right?

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If I want to impact them, it's
like how do I show up for them?

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And have to do it in a
way that is authentic

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: to me, right?

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: Can't just show up and be
like, you know, tell them one thing

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and then do something else, right?

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It's…

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: I can't be like, "Okay,
you need to run faster," right?

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"And you need to do all these things,"
but I don't actually show them or don't

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support them, don't, you know, take
them to practice and don't, you know,

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talk to them about it afterwards, like
what they're feeling and how they're,

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: how they're processing it, right?

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Of, I need to allow them to learn
some of these things on their

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own, right, but I need to give
them the opportunity to do so,

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Kurt: Yeah,

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Michael: right?

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Kurt: yeah.

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I, I have a really good friend, well,
my business partner, my coaching partner

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w-, will say often when he talks about
his kids and, and kids in general, he'll,

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he'll often say there's this shift that
happens away from like, "I'm gonna tell

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you what to do," into like cheerleader
mode, where then the question isn't

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how do I keep them from screwing up?

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The question is, how am I gonna be
with them when they do screw up?

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And, and I, I think screw up has
a, like, that's a broad word.

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That can mean a lot of things.

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But, you know, when, when they fall or
stumble or trip, h-, how then are we

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gonna be with them in that moment instead
of like keeping them from doing it?

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And I think that's what I heard
you just say, and I, I love,

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I love what you said, Michael.

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Michael: Thank you.

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I appreciate that, Kurt.

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So, and it's not just like when you
say with them, I don't, and correct

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me if I'm wrong, but I, I don't
think you mean necessarily physically

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with them all the time, right?

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It's like

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Kurt: Right.

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Michael: sometimes it's just kn-, them
knowing that there is a s-, a support

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system behind them, and sometimes
they have to learn by doing, right?

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It's

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: you don't know what you
don't know until you experience it,

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Michael: right, but how you
experience it is sort of what we

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as parents, I think, can affect.

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: It's not just for our kids,
it's for ourselves, too, right?

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Of like what support systems we
put around ourselves and how do

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we experience things and how do we
let those sort of affect us, right?

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And I think it's again coming down
to like authenticity of who we

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are and how we want to show up.

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And it kind of like you talk a lot
about or you've told me about in

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the past about faking it till you
make it being rewarded so much.

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What's kind of that hidden cost of
that, you know, especially over time of

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continuing to fake it till you make it?

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Especially like I know as a business
owner myself, like, when I started working

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with larger and larger companies, right?

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I, like, some of my clients are Fortune
500 companies, and it's how do I

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project myself as bigger than I am?

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To me, I didn't want to lie.

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I, I didn't want to mislead.

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It was simply, "Here are the things
I can do. You know, here are the

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things we've already done. You know,
here is our experience." And it's,

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it was more of a take it or leave it.

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You know, to me, you know, I guess, again,
it was a more of a being authentic, but

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it's so easy to fake till you make it.

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Like I know somebody who when
they started their business, the

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manufacturing business, you know, when
they first started out, he's like,

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"Yes, I'm s-, standing right outside
my plant." His plant was on his desk.

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It was a literal physical plant.

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It wasn't the actual manufacturing
because he wanted them to think that

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like they had a bigger business,
and it grew into something huge.

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But

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: in the beginning it was
fake it till you make it, right?

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Kurt: Yeah.

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Michael: That was literally a fake it
till you make it type moment, but it

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doesn't matter if it's work or if it's
home, whatever it is, like what is that

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hidden cost of faking it till you make it?

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Kurt: Yeah, and, and I'm, I'm glad
you said it like that, Michael.

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I mean, th-, there is something about
this old adage that says, "I'm gonna build

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the bridge while I walk over it," right?

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Th-, there is something about
doing things we don't know how to

00:12:23.130 --> 00:12:24.920
do and learning them on the fly.

00:12:24.970 --> 00:12:29.250
Like, that is I, I think a huge
skill that everybody needs to learn.

00:12:30.110 --> 00:12:31.630
I, I think that here's the difference.

00:12:32.210 --> 00:12:37.400
I think faking it till we make it implies
that, that, that what I'm faking is the

00:12:37.400 --> 00:12:42.810
alignment with who I am, that, that,
that maybe I'm not faking my skills,

00:12:43.170 --> 00:12:46.030
because I think that's the build the
bridge while you're walking over it.

00:12:46.030 --> 00:12:50.460
I think oftentimes what we mean by
fake it is like, I, I, I maybe don't

00:12:50.850 --> 00:12:53.970
know how to do this or don't wanna
do this, but I'm, I'm gonna do it

00:12:53.990 --> 00:12:55.290
because I'm headed somewhere else.

00:12:56.080 --> 00:12:59.740
Or I'm gonna, I'm gonna, again,
perform success or perform strength

00:12:59.760 --> 00:13:03.620
or perform resilience while I'm
on my way to something else.

00:13:04.110 --> 00:13:08.570
And, and I think the cost
in that misalignment is, is

00:13:08.570 --> 00:13:10.100
much bigger than we imagine.

00:13:10.100 --> 00:13:15.300
I, I think that cost actually looks
like giving up years of our work-life.

00:13:16.280 --> 00:13:19.260
I, I don't know if I just get older
or if my kids are getting older, it

00:13:19.260 --> 00:13:20.930
makes me think about life differently.

00:13:22.190 --> 00:13:25.740
Time, time is wild, and,
and time goes by fast.

00:13:26.280 --> 00:13:33.070
I, I don't know that I want to give years
of my life in roles where I fake it till

00:13:33.070 --> 00:13:36.590
I make it and I'm misaligned just kind
of going for the next thing after that.

00:13:36.590 --> 00:13:40.410
'Cause the, the implication is the, the
making it, like I'm doing this until

00:13:40.410 --> 00:13:43.010
I can make it, whatever that means.

00:13:43.830 --> 00:13:48.090
I, I think it really is years
of misalignment that, that again

00:13:48.110 --> 00:13:51.510
lead us to exhaustion and lead us
to lashing out at our kids, lead

00:13:51.510 --> 00:13:55.040
us to, you know, prioritizing.

00:13:55.690 --> 00:13:59.370
You said this before we hit record,
prioritizing things that, that maybe

00:13:59.370 --> 00:14:02.860
we don't want to prioritize, but
we feel like we have to prioritize.

00:14:03.950 --> 00:14:06.480
When, when the alignment isn't
clear, then we just kind of

00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:07.870
fall into all sorts of things.

00:14:08.576 --> 00:14:08.766
Michael: Right.

00:14:09.336 --> 00:14:14.606
So, for you, faking it is,
you, you call it alignment,

00:14:14.606 --> 00:14:17.816
and it's like intention, right?

00:14:17.966 --> 00:14:18.226
It's like,

00:14:18.260 --> 00:14:18.330
Kurt: I think so.

00:14:18.886 --> 00:14:24.666
Michael: is this, are you making the
choice that is right for you and your

00:14:24.666 --> 00:14:30.316
life and the people you're immediately
surrounded by, as opposed to making

00:14:30.316 --> 00:14:37.826
the choice just because you're either
afraid or because you don't know any

00:14:37.826 --> 00:14:42.210
differently, because that's just what
you've always done and it's just easiest

00:14:42.220 --> 00:14:42.250
Kurt: Yeah.

00:14:42.646 --> 00:14:44.426
Michael: to stay on the existing path.

00:14:44.706 --> 00:14:45.056
Kurt: Yeah.

00:14:45.266 --> 00:14:49.096
Michael: Like, faking it, it's, it's
not necessarily an external lie,

00:14:49.442 --> 00:14:49.722
Kurt: Yeah.

00:14:49.956 --> 00:14:52.186
Michael: right of like the
plant story I just told, right?

00:14:52.226 --> 00:14:58.356
It is, it is more an internal, as you
call it, alignment issue of like, is

00:14:58.356 --> 00:15:00.126
this how I want to be spending my time?

00:15:00.406 --> 00:15:05.546
Like you said, life moves fast and,
you know, do you want to continue in

00:15:05.546 --> 00:15:07.656
the role that you're doing at work?

00:15:07.656 --> 00:15:11.126
Do you want to continue, you know, are you
doing work that means something to you?

00:15:11.136 --> 00:15:14.076
Are you showing up at home
in the way you want to?

00:15:14.416 --> 00:15:16.446
Are you taking care of
yourself the way you want to?

00:15:16.456 --> 00:15:19.436
Are you doing some things
to allow yourself to be you,

00:15:19.650 --> 00:15:19.970
Kurt: Yeah.

00:15:20.186 --> 00:15:20.446
Michael: right?

00:15:20.486 --> 00:15:27.246
And it's like that is, that's where it
costs you because you only have, you

00:15:28.016 --> 00:15:33.186
have a limited amount of time on this
earth, and before you know it, you know,

00:15:33.186 --> 00:15:37.346
your time could be up, and did you get
to do the things that you wanted to do?

00:15:37.376 --> 00:15:39.906
Did you achieve the goals
that were important to you?

00:15:40.116 --> 00:15:43.536
Not necessarily the goals that you were,
you felt like you always had to achieve,

00:15:43.586 --> 00:15:44.096
Kurt: Yeah.

00:15:44.366 --> 00:15:47.456
Michael: but the goals that had an
impact on your life and on those

00:15:47.516 --> 00:15:48.956
around you that, that matter most.

00:15:48.994 --> 00:15:49.494
Kurt: Yeah.

00:15:49.604 --> 00:15:52.684
Yeah, and, and I think, Michael,
I, I think you, you hit on

00:15:52.684 --> 00:15:54.084
something there about goals.

00:15:54.514 --> 00:15:59.484
I, I think there's, I think
there's few people who feel true

00:15:59.534 --> 00:16:01.864
agency over setting those goals.

00:16:02.294 --> 00:16:05.164
I, I think there's a lot of people,
especially in leadership world or

00:16:05.164 --> 00:16:09.644
corporate world, and honestly parenting
too, like parenting can be the wi-,

00:16:09.684 --> 00:16:14.194
kind of the Wild, Wild West of shame and
what you think you're supposed to do.

00:16:15.044 --> 00:16:18.414
Y-, you know, I, I f-, I think very
few of us actually understand like

00:16:18.724 --> 00:16:20.654
I'm ridiculously in charge of my life.

00:16:20.654 --> 00:16:23.744
And, and that, that means
how I define success.

00:16:23.764 --> 00:16:26.594
That means what I, what
I go towards for goals.

00:16:27.374 --> 00:16:31.314
You know, apart from what like, again,
what we think a good parent should do.

00:16:31.344 --> 00:16:35.104
Maybe that aligns for us, maybe
it doesn't, but getting clear on

00:16:35.104 --> 00:16:38.394
that feels like, I mean, that feels
like the work, Michael, for sure.

00:16:39.252 --> 00:16:39.502
Michael: Right.

00:16:39.552 --> 00:16:40.052
Absolutely.

00:16:40.052 --> 00:16:42.522
And it's not, it's not always easy, right?

00:16:42.522 --> 00:16:42.652
It's

00:16:42.794 --> 00:16:43.254
Kurt: No

00:16:43.452 --> 00:16:43.962
Michael: not easy work, right?

00:16:44.112 --> 00:16:47.532
Like, and sometimes you have to go
through a season of doing things

00:16:47.532 --> 00:16:51.432
you don't want to do in order to get
through that, that next stage, right?

00:16:51.472 --> 00:16:57.212
Like, yes, we do need to keep a roof over
our heads, and that may require us doing

00:16:57.212 --> 00:16:59.132
work that isn't as meaningful to us.

00:16:59.252 --> 00:17:03.502
But what can we do along the
way to help us start to get in

00:17:03.502 --> 00:17:05.522
the direction we do want to go?

00:17:05.602 --> 00:17:06.032
Kurt: Yeah.

00:17:06.062 --> 00:17:09.372
Michael: And realizing like, yeah,
our lives should matter to us,

00:17:09.382 --> 00:17:10.392
our opinions should matter to us.

00:17:10.392 --> 00:17:13.622
If this is how I want to spend my
life, like, how do I get to that

00:17:13.622 --> 00:17:19.492
point of being able to do those things
that, where I, I can spend my life?

00:17:20.332 --> 00:17:23.832
You know, and it's, again, it's like
it comes back to authenticity, right?

00:17:23.832 --> 00:17:26.382
Of like being authentic to yourself.

00:17:26.542 --> 00:17:31.652
I'm curious what you think of like what
it actually looks like and how, like how

00:17:31.672 --> 00:17:35.162
authenticity in yourself or how aligning
these things for yourself, how that

00:17:35.912 --> 00:17:42.992
shows up in someone making decisions
and leading and kind of getting to

00:17:42.992 --> 00:17:44.812
that stage of finding that alignment.

00:17:44.994 --> 00:17:45.724
Kurt: Yep, yep.

00:17:45.824 --> 00:17:49.034
Yeah, I, I mean, I, I think
authenticity is such hard work.

00:17:50.484 --> 00:17:53.334
It is so easy to say, "Here's
what I think I'm supposed to do.

00:17:53.344 --> 00:17:54.684
Here's the path that's
laid out in front of me.

00:17:54.684 --> 00:17:58.484
I'm just gonna follow it." W-, we think
about authenticity in our coaching

00:17:58.484 --> 00:18:04.324
practice like this, that I will be the
most authentic dad, leader, business

00:18:04.324 --> 00:18:09.394
owner, whatever, when, when I'm taking
steps to do those things from a place

00:18:09.404 --> 00:18:11.254
of alignment to who and how I wanna be.

00:18:12.134 --> 00:18:14.974
It's, it's the work of who and
how I wanna be and, like, getting

00:18:14.974 --> 00:18:16.734
clear on that that's really hard.

00:18:17.114 --> 00:18:21.714
Once, once that's in place y-,
you know, like I can take steps,

00:18:21.714 --> 00:18:24.204
but having to know what I'm taking
steps towards is really hard.

00:18:24.854 --> 00:18:29.904
I worked for a leader for a few years
who would say, he, he was a senior

00:18:29.904 --> 00:18:33.844
leader in an organization, and he, he
would say, you know, "You just can't

00:18:33.844 --> 00:18:37.854
let, you can't let your people see you
bleed." And, and I remember thinking

00:18:37.854 --> 00:18:43.734
like, "Boy, that feels just impossible,"
and it feels counterproductive.

00:18:44.214 --> 00:18:47.854
But, but I think that for me has
always been the model of, like, the

00:18:47.854 --> 00:18:49.764
opposite of authenticity, right?

00:18:49.904 --> 00:18:54.374
Th-, this is a, a performative, like, I as
a leader need to have things figured out.

00:18:54.374 --> 00:18:56.804
Or, or like, I think
parents do the same thing.

00:18:56.814 --> 00:18:58.184
Like, we need to have all the answers.

00:18:58.184 --> 00:19:02.724
We need to look like our, our kids
are in line, our house is in order,

00:19:02.724 --> 00:19:04.064
or whatever the heck that means.

00:19:05.004 --> 00:19:09.574
But, but at the end of the day,
like that's, that's not who we are.

00:19:09.584 --> 00:19:13.234
Like, we, we, this leader that, that
said, "I can't let my people see me

00:19:13.234 --> 00:19:16.434
bleed," like, he is not Superman, right?

00:19:16.554 --> 00:19:21.564
He, he would, would not go home
at the end of the day and take

00:19:21.564 --> 00:19:22.774
a coat of armor off, right?

00:19:22.774 --> 00:19:23.414
He's a human.

00:19:23.904 --> 00:19:28.374
So, so I, I think when, when I think about
my own authenticity, I, I think about

00:19:28.374 --> 00:19:32.094
like, at the end of the day, at the end of
the week, at the end of career, whatever

00:19:32.094 --> 00:19:37.144
it is, what, what, what do I have to do
to look back and say, "I'm happy with

00:19:37.144 --> 00:19:42.314
how I showed up. I'm happy how I worked.
I'm happy with the effort." Regardless, I

00:19:42.404 --> 00:19:44.054
mean, you, you made a good point, Michael.

00:19:44.064 --> 00:19:45.884
Like, I, I'm fortunate.

00:19:46.034 --> 00:19:49.824
I'm at a stage in life where I could start
a coaching practice and, and it works.

00:19:49.874 --> 00:19:53.464
Like, it, all the things that have
to work to make that happen are

00:19:53.464 --> 00:19:56.624
in place, and I'm, I'm incredibly
fortunate for that to be true.

00:19:57.064 --> 00:19:58.144
Not everybody can do that.

00:19:59.144 --> 00:20:01.134
There was a season in my life
where I couldn't do that.

00:20:01.874 --> 00:20:07.184
And in those seasons where I was doing
those things that, that weren't fully,

00:20:07.184 --> 00:20:12.344
like, life-giving and energizing,
I still can take agency to where I,

00:20:12.394 --> 00:20:15.584
I can look back and say, "I'm happy
with it." Even though I didn't love

00:20:15.584 --> 00:20:18.984
the work, even though it didn't align
fully, I can still, I still want to be

00:20:18.984 --> 00:20:24.324
able to look back and say, "I was Kurt
all the time and, and, and gave full

00:20:24.324 --> 00:20:25.864
effort, played full out all the time."

00:20:26.544 --> 00:20:26.794
Michael: Yeah.

00:20:27.744 --> 00:20:31.724
Yeah, it's, it's interesting
to me that you can

00:20:33.872 --> 00:20:37.562
try to, We're always trying to
align ourselves with what we want

00:20:37.562 --> 00:20:40.002
or we tend to think we are, right?

00:20:40.562 --> 00:20:46.192
And then as leaders sometimes,
whether that's at work, at home or,

00:20:46.232 --> 00:20:54.012
or elsewhere, we often try to put
on a mask, right, of like, you know,

00:20:54.042 --> 00:20:55.992
things don't affect me in the same way.

00:20:55.992 --> 00:20:57.372
Like, I've recognized that.

00:20:57.402 --> 00:21:01.992
I think in the last year, I've recognized
a lot of, I've tried to be too stoic

00:21:02.172 --> 00:21:05.012
in, you know, especially at home, right,

00:21:05.100 --> 00:21:05.250
Kurt: Yeah.

00:21:06.172 --> 00:21:08.412
Michael: of like nothing affects me.

00:21:08.452 --> 00:21:11.742
Like I've got this coat of armor,
like I can handle anything.

00:21:11.742 --> 00:21:15.522
I, you know, I don't cry, I don't scream.

00:21:15.522 --> 00:21:18.772
Like it is just, I can
handle it all, right?

00:21:19.872 --> 00:21:23.032
But that's not reality, right?

00:21:23.092 --> 00:21:27.172
And you could do that for a time, right?

00:21:28.132 --> 00:21:31.062
Temporarily you could
pull it off, I think.

00:21:32.952 --> 00:21:37.072
But if you try to do that permanently
or for the long term, it's gonna

00:21:37.072 --> 00:21:42.922
have a lot more effect on you
than just in the moment, right?

00:21:42.922 --> 00:21:46.772
It is going to, you know, for,
in my case, it probably would've

00:21:46.772 --> 00:21:47.602
pulled me down eventually.

00:21:47.602 --> 00:21:51.642
Like it would have built up
to a point where it's not

00:21:51.642 --> 00:21:53.972
manageable anymore to be so stoic.

00:21:54.042 --> 00:21:55.772
It's okay to recognize when

00:21:55.984 --> 00:21:56.354
Kurt: Yeah.

00:21:56.482 --> 00:21:57.692
Michael: Things don't go your way, right?

00:21:57.692 --> 00:22:00.532
And that maybe helps you align
better with what you want.

00:22:00.532 --> 00:22:02.492
It's like, okay, that
didn't go the way I wanted.

00:22:02.682 --> 00:22:10.052
How can I, you know, do it differently
next time so that it does go my way?

00:22:10.052 --> 00:22:12.792
It does go in a direction that, that
I want to, that it better aligns

00:22:12.792 --> 00:22:15.932
with the values that I've set up
for myself and for those around me.

00:22:16.762 --> 00:22:21.252
It's just, you know, I think it shows up
differently for, for some people, but when

00:22:21.252 --> 00:22:25.152
you said that like your boss mentioned,
like you don't show when, that you're

00:22:25.152 --> 00:22:29.452
bleeding, like to me that immediately
like reminded me of like, yeah, stoicism.

00:22:29.482 --> 00:22:33.582
That was something I had to, on
the surface is a positive trait,

00:22:33.782 --> 00:22:36.522
but underneath not so much.

00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.070
Kurt: Yeah.

00:22:37.182 --> 00:22:40.972
Michael: And, and so like, but that
could show up differently for others.

00:22:40.972 --> 00:22:42.102
Like for me it might be stoicism.

00:22:42.162 --> 00:22:45.512
For somebody else, it could be
something completely different, right?

00:22:45.564 --> 00:22:51.254
It could just be a, a lighter type of
emotion or it could be not even emotional.

00:22:51.254 --> 00:22:54.054
It could just be the way they
socialize or the way that they,

00:22:54.754 --> 00:22:55.934
they, they handle things, right?

00:22:55.944 --> 00:22:59.514
It's, it's always gonna be
unique and personal to you,

00:22:59.688 --> 00:22:59.868
Kurt: Yeah.

00:22:59.924 --> 00:23:03.582
Michael: which is also why your goals
and alignment should be unique and

00:23:03.632 --> 00:23:03.992
Kurt: Yeah.

00:23:04.044 --> 00:23:05.544
Michael: personal to you too, I think.

00:23:05.782 --> 00:23:06.192
Kurt: Yeah.

00:23:06.292 --> 00:23:06.622
Yeah.

00:23:06.712 --> 00:23:08.922
I, I mean, I, I think you
bring up a good point, Michael.

00:23:08.922 --> 00:23:14.732
And, and, and I, I think it's worth saying
I, I would never advocate for this, this

00:23:14.732 --> 00:23:17.442
leader who said, "Don't let people see
you bleed." I would never advocate for him

00:23:17.442 --> 00:23:21.042
to go the opposite way and just like let
everybody see all of your blood, you know?

00:23:21.842 --> 00:23:24.692
L-, like there are appropriate
times and appropriate places

00:23:24.692 --> 00:23:25.902
and, and appropriate people.

00:23:27.162 --> 00:23:31.932
And, you know, w-, we also try
to think about exactly like what,

00:23:31.932 --> 00:23:34.912
what you said about stoicism
and not, not showing emotion.

00:23:35.282 --> 00:23:38.342
We think about this like trying
to hold a beach ball underwater.

00:23:38.522 --> 00:23:42.752
If you ever tried to hold a beach ball in
the pool y-, you can do that for a minute.

00:23:43.572 --> 00:23:46.862
But the deeper down you hold that
beach ball, the hard-, like it just

00:23:47.032 --> 00:23:49.852
wants to come up to the surface,
and it gets harder the deeper you

00:23:49.852 --> 00:23:51.172
hold it and the longer you hold it.

00:23:51.852 --> 00:23:54.952
W-, we think the same thing
about those, those experiences

00:23:54.952 --> 00:23:56.112
and those feelings that we have.

00:23:56.792 --> 00:24:00.742
We can, we can hold them
underwater, but at some point, that

00:24:00.752 --> 00:24:02.252
beach ball is going to come up.

00:24:02.492 --> 00:24:06.302
Like there, there is no infinite
holding a beach ball under the water.

00:24:07.102 --> 00:24:12.152
So the question then becomes are
we willing to like help that beach

00:24:12.152 --> 00:24:13.712
ball up out of the water, right?

00:24:13.732 --> 00:24:17.792
Are, are we willing to not hold it
as deep, and then are we willing to

00:24:17.792 --> 00:24:19.752
gently guide it out of the water?

00:24:20.122 --> 00:24:22.372
Are we willing to kind of feel
those things in a way that's

00:24:22.372 --> 00:24:25.782
healthy and in a, in a way that's
manageable and sustainable?

00:24:26.554 --> 00:24:26.784
Michael: Right.

00:24:26.784 --> 00:24:31.874
Because the alternative is that ball, the
pressure on that ball is going to shoot

00:24:31.874 --> 00:24:36.524
it straight out of the water up into the
air, and it's going back to the stoicism

00:24:36.524 --> 00:24:38.384
example, it would be the same thing.

00:24:38.384 --> 00:24:41.034
The whole thing is going
to come crashing down

00:24:41.168 --> 00:24:41.638
Kurt: Yes.

00:24:41.834 --> 00:24:42.514
Michael: real fast, right?

00:24:42.538 --> 00:24:43.088
Kurt: Yes.

00:24:43.354 --> 00:24:45.504
Michael: And you don't know necessarily
when that moment is going to be,

00:24:45.504 --> 00:24:46.804
but that pressure is building up

00:24:46.928 --> 00:24:47.278
Kurt: Yeah

00:24:47.964 --> 00:24:48.564
Michael: over time, right?

00:24:48.564 --> 00:24:52.884
And so you have to figure out
what is that right balance for

00:24:52.884 --> 00:24:54.854
you in terms of like, how do I

00:24:57.034 --> 00:25:01.334
ingratiate this into my life,
but do it in a way that is more

00:25:01.334 --> 00:25:02.674
controlled for yourself, right?

00:25:02.684 --> 00:25:02.894
Not,

00:25:03.308 --> 00:25:03.678
Kurt: Yeah.

00:25:04.114 --> 00:25:07.554
Michael: not worried about like the
surrounding area of like, but how do I,

00:25:07.584 --> 00:25:12.364
in this immediate zone of this feeling,
how do I bring it to, like you said,

00:25:12.374 --> 00:25:14.024
bring it to the surface in a gentle way?

00:25:14.638 --> 00:25:14.748
Kurt: Yeah.

00:25:15.068 --> 00:25:15.128
Yeah.

00:25:15.198 --> 00:25:18.598
And I don't, I don't know about you,
but if, if I'm holding, metaphorically

00:25:18.598 --> 00:25:21.888
holding the beach ball underwater
with work things, that beach ball's

00:25:21.898 --> 00:25:23.298
always coming out of the water at home.

00:25:23.778 --> 00:25:26.578
Like, it's, it's always
gonna splash my family.

00:25:27.078 --> 00:25:30.118
It's never gonna splash the people
that are causing me to stifle those

00:25:30.128 --> 00:25:31.448
things or hold the beach ball down.

00:25:31.918 --> 00:25:33.408
It's always gonna come out the wrong way.

00:25:34.128 --> 00:25:34.888
Michael: That's a great point.

00:25:35.228 --> 00:25:36.258
Great metaphor, great point.

00:25:36.498 --> 00:25:39.068
So, but this actually leads into,
leads me to my next question.

00:25:39.078 --> 00:25:41.958
Like, you're an internal family
systems practitioner, right?

00:25:42.038 --> 00:25:49.778
And so that lens of, you know, acting
one way at work and then having a

00:25:49.778 --> 00:25:52.318
different result at home or acting
a different way at home and kind

00:25:52.318 --> 00:25:55.328
of how those two impact each other.

00:25:55.458 --> 00:26:00.418
How does that, how does being a
internal family systems practitioner

00:26:01.658 --> 00:26:06.358
explain how we behave one way
at work and another at home?

00:26:06.576 --> 00:26:07.036
Kurt: Yeah.

00:26:07.086 --> 00:26:07.406
Yeah.

00:26:07.406 --> 00:26:08.196
Thanks for asking.

00:26:08.246 --> 00:26:09.206
That, that's a good question.

00:26:09.216 --> 00:26:13.206
I, for the listener who may ne-, never
have heard of this, internal family

00:26:13.206 --> 00:26:14.946
systems theory, it's, it's not mine.

00:26:15.026 --> 00:26:15.626
I didn't make it up.

00:26:16.396 --> 00:26:18.116
It's, it's been around for a long time.

00:26:18.226 --> 00:26:22.376
It, it basically says that we all have one
self, like you and I, Michael, have one

00:26:22.376 --> 00:26:24.506
self, and inside we're made up of parts.

00:26:25.216 --> 00:26:29.666
And, and over the course of time, what
we do is we start to identify that

00:26:29.666 --> 00:26:33.936
there are parts that we find helpful
or parts that we find appropriate,

00:26:34.326 --> 00:26:35.826
and we listen to those parts.

00:26:35.856 --> 00:26:38.656
And then there's other parts
that we find inappropriate or

00:26:38.656 --> 00:26:40.596
unhelpful, and we, we exile them.

00:26:40.606 --> 00:26:42.426
That's the IFS language.

00:26:42.426 --> 00:26:43.306
We exile them.

00:26:43.886 --> 00:26:44.996
Or think about it like this.

00:26:44.996 --> 00:26:49.156
We have parts of us that, that
we metaphorically lock in our

00:26:49.156 --> 00:26:53.436
basement and those parts of
us are just trying to get out.

00:26:54.316 --> 00:26:56.236
And those parts of us want to be heard.

00:26:56.256 --> 00:26:58.346
And, and to be clear,
those parts of us are good.

00:26:58.396 --> 00:27:02.026
Like, those are, those are not
parts that deserve to be exiled.

00:27:02.036 --> 00:27:08.056
Those are parts that are misunderstood,
that, that are trying for our good, are,

00:27:08.096 --> 00:27:10.006
are trying to be heard for our benefit.

00:27:10.690 --> 00:27:10.940
Michael: Sure.

00:27:11.446 --> 00:27:14.846
Kurt: S-, so then I, I think what
happens is w-, we, we try to put

00:27:14.846 --> 00:27:16.326
them in the basement all the time.

00:27:16.336 --> 00:27:18.716
Maybe it's anger, maybe it's sadness.

00:27:19.386 --> 00:27:21.166
Those are kind of the most common ones.

00:27:21.786 --> 00:27:25.056
And, and what happens then is
that, that they are going to find

00:27:25.056 --> 00:27:28.016
their way out of the basement,
like one, one way or another.

00:27:28.766 --> 00:27:33.296
If, if I go to work and somebody triggers
me and I have, I feel angry, and,

00:27:34.076 --> 00:27:36.696
you know, maybe I say, "Well, a good
leader wouldn't be angry about that,"

00:27:36.696 --> 00:27:37.876
and I just put it in the basement.

00:27:38.916 --> 00:27:41.386
I'm gonna go home and something's
gonna trigger me, and that thing

00:27:41.386 --> 00:27:45.886
is gonna pound its way out of the
basement and, and will be heard.

00:27:47.076 --> 00:27:50.216
So, so I think that's the overlap
is that, that we're constantly

00:27:50.216 --> 00:27:53.896
telling those parts of us to, to
go away, to get in the basement.

00:27:54.616 --> 00:27:56.476
Unfortunately, we just, we
just can't keep them there.

00:27:56.526 --> 00:27:59.396
They're, they're too strong
to, to be, to be kept there.

00:28:00.576 --> 00:28:05.306
W-, we, we also would say that in IFS,
we have managers and firefighters.

00:28:06.156 --> 00:28:10.856
A firefighter is someone is a part of
us that gets into action when, let's

00:28:10.856 --> 00:28:12.276
say, anger gets out of the basement.

00:28:12.866 --> 00:28:15.516
Anger gets out of the basement,
sets the couch on fire, makes it,

00:28:15.556 --> 00:28:16.886
we're lashing out at our kids.

00:28:17.206 --> 00:28:21.236
The firefighter comes in and says, "Get
back to the basement," and we, we do that

00:28:21.236 --> 00:28:24.326
through any kind of t-, any technique
that'll work, whether it's healthy or not.

00:28:25.306 --> 00:28:26.916
We also have managers.

00:28:27.036 --> 00:28:31.006
Those parts of us keep that door
locked when it starts to creak open.

00:28:31.016 --> 00:28:33.226
I think it really is all, all
about the parts of us that we've

00:28:33.226 --> 00:28:37.196
said, "Go away. We, we don't need
you," and, and just the constant

00:28:37.216 --> 00:28:38.766
struggle of them trying to be heard.

00:28:39.420 --> 00:28:40.290
Michael: I love hearing about that.

00:28:40.290 --> 00:28:46.980
It, it makes so much sense to me, but
what you say is like, you're basically

00:28:47.050 --> 00:28:49.010
talking about doing the inner work, right,

00:28:49.118 --> 00:28:49.458
Kurt: Yeah.

00:28:49.660 --> 00:28:53.500
Michael: of like figuring out
like what's going on in your own

00:28:53.500 --> 00:28:59.640
head and how you're responding to
what's happening around you, right?

00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:07.270
And, you know, oftentimes when I
talk to other people and say, oh,

00:29:07.350 --> 00:29:10.530
talk about like doing the inner work,
you know, taking care of ourselves,

00:29:10.920 --> 00:29:12.670
I get a lot of eye rolls, right?

00:29:12.910 --> 00:29:15.580
On the other end of that spectrum,
people just kind of feel overwhelmed,

00:29:15.720 --> 00:29:18.780
like, I just, this is just too
much for me to, to do that.

00:29:19.760 --> 00:29:23.810
What does doing that inner work
actually look like in a normal week?

00:29:23.810 --> 00:29:28.070
'Cause I don't think for most people
in most situations, yes, there, I'm

00:29:28.410 --> 00:29:31.150
sure there are circumstances where
it is just overwhelming, right?

00:29:31.480 --> 00:29:35.160
I can think personally of times where
things do get overwhelming, that happens.

00:29:36.170 --> 00:29:40.100
But most of the time it's, I think it's
probably more manageable than that.

00:29:40.680 --> 00:29:44.780
Like, what, doing the inner work,
what does that really look like

00:29:44.780 --> 00:29:47.030
on a day-to-day or weekly basis?

00:29:47.138 --> 00:29:48.298
Kurt: Yeah, good question.

00:29:48.638 --> 00:29:53.078
I, I always, I like to say it like this:
I, I love ri-, I'm a mountain biker.

00:29:53.078 --> 00:29:54.348
I love riding my mountain bike.

00:29:55.258 --> 00:29:56.858
A-, and I'm, I'm pretty good at it.

00:29:56.958 --> 00:30:00.378
But if you took me to, like,
Whistler, British Columbia,

00:30:01.004 --> 00:30:01.294
Michael: Sure.

00:30:01.348 --> 00:30:03.508
Kurt: I, I would be out of my
depth, and it'd be overwhelming.

00:30:03.838 --> 00:30:06.418
That doesn't mean I'm
not mountain biking now.

00:30:06.468 --> 00:30:09.708
It just means that I'm not, like,
a professional mountain biker.

00:30:09.718 --> 00:30:11.728
It doesn't mean I can't
mountain bike in a small way.

00:30:11.768 --> 00:30:13.298
I think the same is true for inner work.

00:30:13.998 --> 00:30:19.708
Just because we're not going to mine the
depths of our soul on day one doesn't

00:30:19.708 --> 00:30:21.838
mean we can't start somewhere, right?

00:30:22.438 --> 00:30:27.728
So, so we, we invite people to start
with, with the practice of reflection,

00:30:27.758 --> 00:30:30.828
which also sounds scary, but here,
here's, here's what that looks like.

00:30:31.688 --> 00:30:34.958
When someone comes to us and says, "Hey,
I think we're ready to try this," w-,

00:30:34.968 --> 00:30:40.068
we say, we say, "Find the places in your
day-to-day life where you feel regret

00:30:40.098 --> 00:30:45.418
or remorse." And, and that could be, you
know, "I lashed out at my kids, and I

00:30:45.418 --> 00:30:49.458
don't like that." Or it could be, "I had
a hard conversation, and I clammed up,

00:30:49.458 --> 00:30:53.438
and I didn't say what was so for me," or,
"I said too much," or whatever that is.

00:30:53.868 --> 00:30:58.168
Find those places of regret and remorse
a-, and literally sit down either with

00:30:58.168 --> 00:31:02.318
your notes app on your phone or an
actual pen and paper and reflect on

00:31:02.488 --> 00:31:08.208
simple questions like what happened,
who was involved, and what did I do?

00:31:08.538 --> 00:31:11.288
A-, and then what would I do
differently the next time?

00:31:11.968 --> 00:31:13.518
Because there's going to be a next time.

00:31:14.728 --> 00:31:19.648
That, that for us, whether that's
five minutes, 30 minutes, whatever it

00:31:19.648 --> 00:31:23.708
is, that for us is a great place to
start because you begin to actually

00:31:23.708 --> 00:31:26.718
notice what's stirring up in you.

00:31:28.458 --> 00:31:31.788
Michael: I think what I like
about this most is you don't

00:31:31.788 --> 00:31:32.718
have to overcomplicate it.

00:31:33.138 --> 00:31:36.248
You can just, it's simple, right?

00:31:36.248 --> 00:31:40.648
You can start with the singular
question of like, what regrets

00:31:41.408 --> 00:31:43.998
have I recently experienced, right?

00:31:44.968 --> 00:31:49.308
We're not going into some
psychological deep dive here.

00:31:49.308 --> 00:31:52.518
We're simply just writing down

00:31:52.610 --> 00:31:52.970
Kurt: Yeah.

00:31:53.038 --> 00:31:57.058
Michael: or thinking through, thinking
about recent experiences, right?

00:31:57.718 --> 00:31:59.948
And it's just take one
step at a time, right?

00:31:59.948 --> 00:32:05.748
'Cause I think when I've talked to
others about inner work or whatever

00:32:05.758 --> 00:32:14.478
you wanna call it, it has this kind
of overarching feeling of depth, of

00:32:14.738 --> 00:32:17.128
there, there's a lot to it, right?

00:32:17.570 --> 00:32:17.930
Kurt: Yeah.

00:32:18.078 --> 00:32:20.048
Michael: And, and there can be,

00:32:20.290 --> 00:32:20.620
Kurt: Yeah.

00:32:21.218 --> 00:32:23.158
Michael: but you don't start at the end.

00:32:23.158 --> 00:32:27.008
Like with your mountain biking example,
you don't start with Whistler, right?

00:32:27.248 --> 00:32:30.828
You're starting maybe riding
down your street, right?

00:32:30.898 --> 00:32:33.048
And you build up from there, right?

00:32:33.518 --> 00:32:35.478
You know, I always come back
to the metaphor of marathons.

00:32:35.478 --> 00:32:37.898
You don't start day
one running a marathon.

00:32:38.608 --> 00:32:42.678
You start by going out and
maybe walking or maybe running

00:32:43.128 --> 00:32:44.688
a very short distance, right?

00:32:44.794 --> 00:32:44.934
Kurt: Yeah.

00:32:44.934 --> 00:32:46.614
Yeah.

00:32:46.614 --> 00:32:46.884
Yeah.

00:32:47.298 --> 00:32:48.098
Michael: And you build up to that.

00:32:48.098 --> 00:32:50.738
And inner work can be the same
thing, I think is what you're

00:32:50.738 --> 00:32:52.668
describing of like, start small.

00:32:52.678 --> 00:32:56.468
Start with a simple question, answer
that, and then you can start to

00:32:56.468 --> 00:32:59.188
reflect back on what that means to you.

00:32:59.298 --> 00:32:59.678
Kurt: Yeah.

00:32:59.818 --> 00:33:01.878
Michael: And, you know, I
know from personal experience

00:33:02.198 --> 00:33:03.868
that has worked for me, right?

00:33:03.868 --> 00:33:09.018
And I think, you know, the older I get
in the more recent years, I realize

00:33:09.018 --> 00:33:13.718
the effect of that and how much
happier I've become as a result of

00:33:13.718 --> 00:33:18.098
like thinking through, you know, what
has worked for me, what hasn't worked

00:33:18.098 --> 00:33:23.108
for me, because then it allows me to
realign where I wanna go next, right?

00:33:23.138 --> 00:33:25.798
Like this experience was
great, this experience wasn't.

00:33:26.408 --> 00:33:29.458
How do I spend more time
doing the great thing,

00:33:29.506 --> 00:33:29.906
Kurt: Yeah,

00:33:30.138 --> 00:33:30.468
Michael: right?

00:33:30.836 --> 00:33:30.976
Kurt: yeah

00:33:30.978 --> 00:33:35.008
Michael: and less time on the things
that were more regrettable or more

00:33:35.368 --> 00:33:37.008
I wish I'd done something different.

00:33:37.186 --> 00:33:37.496
Kurt: Yeah.

00:33:38.076 --> 00:33:40.316
And, and, and free from shame, right?

00:33:40.886 --> 00:33:42.786
The other day, let me,
can I give you an example?

00:33:43.088 --> 00:33:43.648
Michael: Please.

00:33:43.816 --> 00:33:47.496
Kurt: The other day I was talking to my
16-year-old, and we, we love baseball.

00:33:47.996 --> 00:33:49.956
He's an Astros fan, I'm a Red Sox fan.

00:33:50.276 --> 00:33:55.126
And the Astros had just thrown a combined
no-hitter, which, which I think is dumb.

00:33:55.276 --> 00:33:57.156
I don't care if there's
a combined no-hitter.

00:33:57.156 --> 00:33:58.016
I think it's so dumb.

00:33:58.026 --> 00:34:00.136
Like, talk to me when one
pitcher does it, right?

00:34:00.586 --> 00:34:03.866
So, so we get into this, like d-,
it starts out as a friendly debate

00:34:04.496 --> 00:34:08.826
a-, about why this is dumb, and he's
trying to debate why this is great.

00:34:09.616 --> 00:34:11.686
And before I know it,
we're like, we're arguing.

00:34:11.796 --> 00:34:15.896
Like we're flat out arguing
and, and neither one of us care.

00:34:16.156 --> 00:34:17.436
Like, like what are we doing?

00:34:18.096 --> 00:34:22.466
That is a moment where I, like I had to
stop and reflect and say like, "What?

00:34:22.616 --> 00:34:26.116
What happened in me?" Like, like no shame.

00:34:26.346 --> 00:34:28.286
I mean, I, I'm not gonna
assign a good or bad.

00:34:28.346 --> 00:34:29.876
It, it, it happened.

00:34:30.176 --> 00:34:34.836
I can't undo it, but I can do it better
next time if, if I can understand like

00:34:35.076 --> 00:34:41.386
why did I argue, like r-, full on argue
with my son about a combined no-hitter?

00:34:41.396 --> 00:34:42.946
Like what a dumb argument.

00:34:43.276 --> 00:34:47.056
Like th-, those are the sort of
real-life things that we think the

00:34:47.056 --> 00:34:51.636
practice of reflection in small ways,
and, and honestly, Michael, even if

00:34:51.636 --> 00:34:54.806
I spend five minutes or if one of
our clients spends five minutes doing

00:34:54.806 --> 00:34:58.346
that, that's five more minutes than
they would've done before, right?

00:34:58.426 --> 00:35:00.516
That's more work than they
were doing previously.

00:35:01.206 --> 00:35:01.386
Michael: Right.

00:35:01.426 --> 00:35:06.306
And I think, and correct me if I'm
wrong here, but I imagine that those

00:35:06.316 --> 00:35:11.146
five minutes, yes, you spent five
minutes, but it impacts a lot more

00:35:11.146 --> 00:35:12.574
than five minutes down the road, right?

00:35:12.574 --> 00:35:12.954
Kurt: 100%.

00:35:13.554 --> 00:35:13.784
Yeah.

00:35:13.816 --> 00:35:17.996
Michael: It's gonna affect hours,
days, weeks, like, th-, because you've

00:35:17.996 --> 00:35:20.676
had an opportunity to reflect of
like, "Okay, I didn't like the way

00:35:20.766 --> 00:35:23.786
I handled that particular situation,
so next time hopefully I'll recognize

00:35:23.786 --> 00:35:25.546
that sooner and I can start to

00:35:25.590 --> 00:35:25.900
Kurt: Yeah.

00:35:26.336 --> 00:35:28.596
Michael: react in a different way."

00:35:28.806 --> 00:35:29.276
Kurt: 100%.

00:35:29.636 --> 00:35:29.946
Michael: Right.

00:35:30.016 --> 00:35:35.176
But also for you, I imagine that that
reflection, you started with regret at

00:35:35.176 --> 00:35:38.926
the end of that experience, but as you
reflected and you start to talk about it,

00:35:38.926 --> 00:35:41.666
and I can kind of hear it in your voice a
little bit, it's become humorous, right?

00:35:41.696 --> 00:35:45.226
And it is an experience that
you'll probably look back on

00:35:45.226 --> 00:35:47.516
with your son in 20 years, right?

00:35:47.516 --> 00:35:49.036
And you guys are laughing about it.

00:35:49.066 --> 00:35:50.546
Maybe when you're a
grandfather and, you know,

00:35:50.754 --> 00:35:51.084
Kurt: Yeah.

00:35:51.386 --> 00:35:52.976
Michael: the grandkid sees his first
no-hitter and you guys are gonna be like,

00:35:53.156 --> 00:35:56.956
"Remember that time we argued about the,
the value of a combined no-hitter?" Right?

00:35:57.002 --> 00:35:58.382
Kurt: Which is still dumb, Michael.

00:36:00.056 --> 00:36:00.856
Michael: I don't disagree.

00:36:00.876 --> 00:36:03.896
I, it's an accomplishment, but it's
not nearly the accomplishment that

00:36:03.946 --> 00:36:04.206
Kurt: yeah.

00:36:04.636 --> 00:36:07.256
Michael: a single player doing
that for, you know, nine innings

00:36:07.256 --> 00:36:08.006
or mo-, even more sometimes.

00:36:08.026 --> 00:36:08.746
Kurt: Yeah.

00:36:09.016 --> 00:36:12.466
I mean, I think, I think the reflection
also kind of puts in perspective,

00:36:12.546 --> 00:36:16.026
like is it, is it important?

00:36:16.106 --> 00:36:17.666
Like, do, do I not want to do that again?

00:36:17.676 --> 00:36:18.876
No, I don't want to do that again.

00:36:19.246 --> 00:36:23.176
And the reflection also allows me to
realize, like, this is not going to

00:36:23.176 --> 00:36:25.416
define my relationship with my son, right?

00:36:25.556 --> 00:36:30.176
Because then I also got to go back
and say, "Hey, kid that is not how

00:36:30.176 --> 00:36:32.386
I wanted that to go." You know?

00:36:32.386 --> 00:36:35.676
Like, I get to actually name that
and clean up that mess a little bit.

00:36:36.466 --> 00:36:39.706
And, and I think without that reflection
piece, like, that could just weigh on me.

00:36:39.766 --> 00:36:42.526
Like, it could, the shame
could kind of take over.

00:36:42.526 --> 00:36:47.126
But I think being able to, to name it
and, and move on allows the lightness to

00:36:47.126 --> 00:36:51.266
realize, like, this isn't gonna be what
defines my relationship with my kid.

00:36:51.910 --> 00:36:52.460
Michael: Right.

00:36:52.460 --> 00:36:56.330
And it, to me, it sounds like it actually
strengthens your relationship because

00:36:56.330 --> 00:37:05.540
you did go back and explain yourself, and
I think that emotional honesty probably

00:37:05.560 --> 00:37:10.440
is going to allow your son to respect
you even more than he already does.

00:37:10.440 --> 00:37:13.970
He's like, "Hey, my dad can recognize
this." And that is a lesson for him

00:37:13.970 --> 00:37:16.600
that he will probably pick up for
when he goes through that experience

00:37:16.600 --> 00:37:18.180
himself and be like, "You know what?

00:37:18.260 --> 00:37:19.130
It's okay to admit

00:37:19.462 --> 00:37:19.882
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:19.970 --> 00:37:21.990
Michael: when I didn't handle
that as, as well as I could have."

00:37:22.182 --> 00:37:22.592
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:22.940 --> 00:37:24.620
Michael: Like, I, because
you're demonstrating that.

00:37:24.620 --> 00:37:25.980
You're not just saying that, right?

00:37:25.980 --> 00:37:29.750
You didn't, you didn't just, you
know, tell him, "Okay, this is what

00:37:29.750 --> 00:37:32.260
I did wrong and this is how it, you
know, going forward, this is how it's

00:37:32.260 --> 00:37:34.850
gonna be." It, you said like, "Hey,

00:37:35.046 --> 00:37:35.466
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:35.570 --> 00:37:36.700
Michael: I didn't handle
that the best way.

00:37:36.766 --> 00:37:37.096
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:37.620 --> 00:37:42.220
Michael: You know, next time I'm gonna
do it this way." Like you, and then

00:37:42.820 --> 00:37:45.790
your, your behavior becomes that, right?

00:37:45.790 --> 00:37:46.600
It's not just

00:37:46.630 --> 00:37:46.970
Kurt: Yeah.

00:37:47.250 --> 00:37:48.240
Michael: you telling him that.

00:37:48.240 --> 00:37:49.560
It is, it is part of that.

00:37:49.560 --> 00:37:54.300
So I, you know, we talk a lot about
inner work and I, and kind of these

00:37:54.310 --> 00:37:57.180
internal family systems, and you have
this framework that I wanna make sure

00:37:57.180 --> 00:38:01.220
that we, we talk about, 'cause I think
it's fascinating to me, and I think

00:38:01.220 --> 00:38:06.260
it's so relevant to, to a lot of dads,
you know, especially ones who are

00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:11.480
trying to figure out meaningful work
and being active and present at home

00:38:11.510 --> 00:38:16.890
and kind of, you know, taking care of
themselves and their lives and, you

00:38:16.890 --> 00:38:18.150
know, putting their best foot forward.

00:38:18.670 --> 00:38:24.370
You have this framework of E plus
R equals T. Can you kind of walk

00:38:24.370 --> 00:38:27.960
us through, explain, you know, what
those letters stand for and what

00:38:27.960 --> 00:38:31.740
it does and how do you know you're,
when you're actually doing it?

00:38:31.878 --> 00:38:32.558
Kurt: Yep, yep.

00:38:32.608 --> 00:38:33.618
Yeah, thanks for asking.

00:38:34.298 --> 00:38:35.158
I hate math.

00:38:35.158 --> 00:38:37.118
I'm not sure why we made
this a math equation.

00:38:37.118 --> 00:38:38.428
Like, what a dumb idea this was.

00:38:38.558 --> 00:38:39.438
Math is dumb.

00:38:39.848 --> 00:38:41.828
I, I may-, maybe it's,
I shouldn't say that.

00:38:41.898 --> 00:38:42.768
Math's not dumb.

00:38:43.418 --> 00:38:45.938
Ma-, you should take all
your classes, kids, in math.

00:38:47.418 --> 00:38:48.318
I just don't like math.

00:38:48.548 --> 00:38:48.978
So yeah.

00:38:48.978 --> 00:38:50.828
So this is our transformational equation.

00:38:50.838 --> 00:38:54.708
W-, we, we believe that transformation
is possible insofar as we get

00:38:54.718 --> 00:38:57.548
to decide how we show up, and we
can do it differently next time.

00:38:58.528 --> 00:39:02.868
So, so E in this equation, E plus
R equals T. E means encounter.

00:39:03.368 --> 00:39:08.318
An encounter is any experience or
circumstance that causes us to react in

00:39:08.318 --> 00:39:10.678
ways we don't prefer or don't understand.

00:39:11.138 --> 00:39:14.238
So my no-hitter argument,
that is an encounter.

00:39:15.178 --> 00:39:17.698
We, we think we have
dozens of these every day.

00:39:17.968 --> 00:39:22.298
So my coaching partner and I, we, we would
say all of us have dozens of them a day.

00:39:22.478 --> 00:39:27.198
W-, where maybe we get cut off in traffic,
maybe the person like scoots their

00:39:27.198 --> 00:39:31.178
shopping cart in the line ahead of me,
and I feel like I'm being slighted or, you

00:39:31.178 --> 00:39:33.518
know, all these kind of mundane things.

00:39:34.158 --> 00:39:38.608
W-, we think these can be encounters that
cause us to react in ways we don't prefer.

00:39:39.478 --> 00:39:43.278
So, so the invitation then is to do I
mentioned this just a second ago, is

00:39:43.278 --> 00:39:47.388
to reflect on those things and, and
give just a short amount of time to

00:39:47.398 --> 00:39:49.498
ask those really tangible questions.

00:39:50.848 --> 00:39:55.868
Maybe it's right away after the
encounter, maybe it's 12 hours later,

00:39:55.868 --> 00:39:59.678
maybe it's a day later, whatever it
is, but intentional space to ask those

00:39:59.708 --> 00:40:01.938
really intentional, simple questions.

00:40:02.598 --> 00:40:06.638
And what we think is that when, when
we have an encounter and reflect on it,

00:40:06.878 --> 00:40:12.408
that most adults, like narcissists aside,
there's always an exception to the rule,

00:40:12.784 --> 00:40:13.114
Michael: Sure.

00:40:13.178 --> 00:40:18.458
Kurt: but most adults, when they
see something, we can't unsee it.

00:40:18.458 --> 00:40:22.808
S-, so most of the time, if, if I can
really like get clear on here's what

00:40:22.808 --> 00:40:25.848
happened and here's how I wanted it
to go, here's how it went, here's how

00:40:25.848 --> 00:40:31.308
I want it to go next time, that, that
that will empower me and, a-, and begin

00:40:31.308 --> 00:40:34.298
that sort of motivation that I need
to take steps for it to be different.

00:40:34.308 --> 00:40:37.908
S-, so there, there's no real magic
in transformation, but if there was

00:40:37.908 --> 00:40:42.368
magic, reflection and seeing something
would be as close as I could give you

00:40:43.974 --> 00:40:44.326
Michael: I love this.

00:40:44.326 --> 00:40:45.524
There's a lot I want to unpack here.

00:40:45.924 --> 00:40:50.254
The, again, the, the formula is literally
the story you just told me, right?

00:40:50.254 --> 00:40:55.214
It is encounter or experience plus
reflection equals transformation, right?

00:40:55.264 --> 00:41:06.884
E plus R equals T. And it's, I love
it because it simplifies what you just

00:41:06.884 --> 00:41:10.814
talked about to a level where it's easy to

00:41:12.924 --> 00:41:18.194
r-, remember and recognize, and it's
like sort of a simple tool, right,

00:41:18.224 --> 00:41:23.224
of this is, you know, okay, I've
recognized I just had this encounter.

00:41:23.238 --> 00:41:23.528
Kurt: Yeah.

00:41:23.674 --> 00:41:24.874
Michael: You know, how do I handle this?

00:41:24.874 --> 00:41:27.294
Well, I just, you know,
go to the formula, right?

00:41:27.514 --> 00:41:27.574
Kurt: Yeah.

00:41:27.694 --> 00:41:27.814
Yeah.

00:41:27.974 --> 00:41:28.654
Michael: Let's go to the math.

00:41:28.704 --> 00:41:28.824
Kurt: Yeah.

00:41:29.454 --> 00:41:34.344
Michael: But the one thing that I, I
want to poke at here a little bit, you

00:41:34.344 --> 00:41:36.664
said that it was with reflection, right?

00:41:36.678 --> 00:41:37.008
Kurt: Yeah.

00:41:37.304 --> 00:41:40.964
Michael: It sounded to me like
you're saying that reflection rarely,

00:41:40.964 --> 00:41:42.574
if ever, happens in the moment,

00:41:43.088 --> 00:41:43.578
Kurt: Hmm.

00:41:43.624 --> 00:41:43.864
Michael: right?

00:41:44.044 --> 00:41:48.264
It is, you know, typic-, like I think
you said, and I'm putting words in your

00:41:48.264 --> 00:41:53.024
mouth because what I think what you said
was reflection, you know, can come later,

00:41:53.024 --> 00:41:56.484
like, you know, the day after or an
hour later, whatever it might be, right?

00:41:56.484 --> 00:42:02.484
But that, to me, is so important, right?

00:42:02.484 --> 00:42:06.854
It, it's so hard to, in the moment,
when you have those encounters that

00:42:06.854 --> 00:42:11.754
maybe frustrate you or have some sort
of emotion around them, it is hard to

00:42:11.754 --> 00:42:14.694
separate emotion from reality, right?

00:42:14.788 --> 00:42:15.068
Kurt: Yeah.

00:42:15.394 --> 00:42:20.974
Michael: And I found for myself,
like time is the only way to allow

00:42:20.974 --> 00:42:22.774
that emotion to separate itself

00:42:23.040 --> 00:42:23.290
Kurt: Yeah.

00:42:23.554 --> 00:42:26.264
Michael: from the encounter, from
the experience, from the event.

00:42:26.496 --> 00:42:26.756
Kurt: Yeah.

00:42:26.904 --> 00:42:32.034
Michael: And once I'm able to pull the
emotion away from it, then I can pr-,

00:42:32.054 --> 00:42:39.224
not just properly reflect, but properly
figure out what it is that I really

00:42:39.224 --> 00:42:43.084
want to get out of this experience the

00:42:43.174 --> 00:42:43.194
Kurt: Yeah.

00:42:43.394 --> 00:42:43.434
next

00:42:43.434 --> 00:42:43.924
Michael: time, right?

00:42:44.414 --> 00:42:50.374
Am I safe to say that the E plus R
equals T is not a singular moment?

00:42:50.394 --> 00:42:52.414
It is, you have the encounter.

00:42:53.204 --> 00:42:57.784
That reflection piece doesn't necessarily
come right during the encounter or right

00:42:57.794 --> 00:43:01.924
at the immediate end of the encounter,
but it is something that happens in time,

00:43:01.964 --> 00:43:04.134
and that time I'm sure can differ, right?

00:43:04.314 --> 00:43:05.774
It could be later that day,
it could be the next day, it

00:43:05.774 --> 00:43:06.804
could be a week from now, right,

00:43:06.912 --> 00:43:07.112
Kurt: Yeah.

00:43:07.344 --> 00:43:07.984
Michael: or a month from now.

00:43:08.274 --> 00:43:09.904
Is that a fair assessment of…

00:43:10.402 --> 00:43:10.762
Kurt: Yeah.

00:43:11.032 --> 00:43:13.332
Yeah, I, I think it's fair, and here's
what I would say about it being fair.

00:43:13.342 --> 00:43:16.522
I mean, I, I, I agree with you
wholeheart-, heartedly that

00:43:16.532 --> 00:43:19.632
sometimes time is what we need to
be able to separate those things.

00:43:19.632 --> 00:43:21.322
That's really well said, Michael.

00:43:22.182 --> 00:43:26.352
You know, sometimes it's actually, like,
practical, like an encounter happens,

00:43:26.352 --> 00:43:29.712
but I, like I'm going to another meeting
and I don't actually have time to do it.

00:43:30.412 --> 00:43:32.092
But, but here's, here's the
other thing I would say.

00:43:32.122 --> 00:43:35.652
Kind of couched in this is the
idea of progress and growth.

00:43:35.652 --> 00:43:40.702
W-, we, we have a kind of a mental
model of, of growth that says most

00:43:40.702 --> 00:43:44.662
of us go through life and we are just
oblivious to these encounters, right?

00:43:44.712 --> 00:43:47.172
Like we, we have these reactions.

00:43:47.302 --> 00:43:50.552
I mean, 10 years ago, my kid wouldn't
have been 16 10 years ago, obviously,

00:43:50.552 --> 00:43:55.102
but if I'd have had this argument with my
kid about this no-hitter 10 years ago, I

00:43:55.102 --> 00:43:57.242
would've just like went on with my life.

00:43:57.272 --> 00:44:01.972
I w-, it wouldn't have even like hit my
radar of, oh, I don't like that, right?

00:44:02.782 --> 00:44:07.912
So, so growth actually looks like, in
our opinion, growth looks like being able

00:44:07.912 --> 00:44:09.532
to see something in the rearview mirror.

00:44:10.412 --> 00:44:13.612
You know, this is the whole
marathon, where do you start?

00:44:13.632 --> 00:44:17.012
Like many of us want to be able
to see these things in the moment

00:44:17.062 --> 00:44:21.332
and stop and collect ourselves and
like change course mid-encounter.

00:44:21.842 --> 00:44:25.902
I, I just don't know that that's
possible early in, in our own work.

00:44:26.592 --> 00:44:32.052
I think that rear view view, rear
view view, I, I think, I think that's

00:44:32.052 --> 00:44:36.602
a sign of growth and a necessary
kind of milestone of growth.

00:44:36.622 --> 00:44:39.382
S-, so I think, yeah, all that to
say, I think you're right that,

00:44:39.882 --> 00:44:43.812
that, that it isn't necessarily
a moment where we change course.

00:44:43.812 --> 00:44:47.512
It m-, I mean, hopefully, like
our goal of progress is hopefully,

00:44:47.692 --> 00:44:50.952
you know, that, that time between
encounter and transformation is

00:44:50.952 --> 00:44:53.062
different or, or it decreases.

00:44:53.922 --> 00:44:57.062
But at least initially, yeah,
there's gonna have to be some space

00:44:57.072 --> 00:44:58.152
for that reflection to happen.

00:44:58.172 --> 00:44:59.232
That's really well said, Michael.

00:44:59.998 --> 00:45:00.248
Michael: Thank you.

00:45:00.248 --> 00:45:00.758
I appreciate that.

00:45:00.948 --> 00:45:06.898
I, I think for me personally, what
I realize is that, yeah, it's very

00:45:06.898 --> 00:45:10.628
difficult for me to, in the moment,
be able to do that reflection.

00:45:11.128 --> 00:45:12.418
But the more I…

00:45:12.588 --> 00:45:13.138
Kurt: Same, by the way.

00:45:13.648 --> 00:45:17.628
Michael: And the, the more I practice
that though, the easier it becomes to

00:45:17.628 --> 00:45:23.488
recognize the event, recognize, you know,
the E part of this, the encounter, right?

00:45:24.178 --> 00:45:27.768
And in that moment be like, "Hey,
check yourself for a second.

00:45:27.768 --> 00:45:30.828
Like, this is not how you
want to respond." Like,

00:45:31.168 --> 00:45:32.568
"Okay, this is a tough moment.

00:45:34.158 --> 00:45:34.738
Settle down.

00:45:34.758 --> 00:45:34.978
Like,

00:45:35.274 --> 00:45:35.934
Kurt: Yeah.

00:45:36.038 --> 00:45:36.678
Michael: take a deep breath, relax.

00:45:36.998 --> 00:45:41.138
You will resolve this." It's not going
to be in this moment, but at least

00:45:41.708 --> 00:45:44.838
I'm not going to, I can recognize
the fact that I can stop myself,

00:45:44.938 --> 00:45:45.398
Kurt: Yeah.

00:45:45.638 --> 00:45:46.068
Michael: right?

00:45:46.258 --> 00:45:46.558
Kurt: Yeah.

00:45:46.618 --> 00:45:50.568
Michael: And so, I don't let it
get to an even worse point, right?

00:45:50.588 --> 00:45:56.488
Like, I think that, for me at
least, the experience of reflection

00:45:57.498 --> 00:45:59.918
allows me to at least recognize

00:46:00.074 --> 00:46:00.524
Kurt: Yes.

00:46:00.578 --> 00:46:04.048
Michael: the situation so that I can, I
know I'm gonna go back to it later, right?

00:46:04.178 --> 00:46:05.098
But it might

00:46:05.514 --> 00:46:05.744
Kurt: Yeah.

00:46:05.824 --> 00:46:05.844
Yeah.

00:46:06.028 --> 00:46:08.778
Michael: shortstop the
moment a bit, right?

00:46:08.778 --> 00:46:11.728
Pun sort of intended there
with shortstop, right?

00:46:11.728 --> 00:46:12.788
It's to

00:46:15.238 --> 00:46:18.248
not let me let it get out of hand, right?

00:46:18.268 --> 00:46:18.508
Kurt: Yeah.

00:46:19.318 --> 00:46:25.108
Michael: It's sort of a, a gauge for
me to, you know, I've got a tighter

00:46:25.108 --> 00:46:28.768
grip on the gauge so I can be like,
"Oh, wait, this is starting to not go

00:46:28.768 --> 00:46:33.368
the direction I want to go. How can
I…" I don't need to resolve it in the

00:46:33.368 --> 00:46:35.528
moment, but I can start to handle it

00:46:35.594 --> 00:46:36.114
Kurt: Yeah.

00:46:36.158 --> 00:46:38.818
Michael: in a more rational
way and separate myself to,

00:46:39.508 --> 00:46:40.978
so that I can go reflect on it

00:46:41.322 --> 00:46:41.682
Kurt: Yeah.

00:46:42.088 --> 00:46:43.938
Michael: when my emotions have
calmed down and things have,

00:46:44.348 --> 00:46:45.478
have sort of settled, right?

00:46:45.610 --> 00:46:47.110
Kurt: Yeah, really well said, Michael.

00:46:48.030 --> 00:46:48.410
Michael: Thank you.

00:46:48.420 --> 00:46:49.620
I appreciate that.

00:46:49.620 --> 00:46:51.480
So one more question before
we get into the speed round.

00:46:51.642 --> 00:46:51.942
Kurt: Yep.

00:46:53.630 --> 00:46:58.460
Michael: If, you know, once someone
starts doing this work, this inner

00:46:58.460 --> 00:47:03.170
work, what are the simple habits or
practices that can help them stay

00:47:03.170 --> 00:47:09.090
aligned when life inevitably gets
chaotic again or becomes overwhelming?

00:47:09.162 --> 00:47:09.522
Kurt: Yeah.

00:47:09.612 --> 00:47:09.932
Yeah.

00:47:10.552 --> 00:47:11.922
I mean, reflection is key.

00:47:12.052 --> 00:47:13.672
Like I would, I would
say that immediately.

00:47:13.672 --> 00:47:18.042
I, I think our hope with our clients
is that reflection becomes sort of a

00:47:18.042 --> 00:47:22.462
regular rhythm instead of something
we do, you know, in the, just when

00:47:22.462 --> 00:47:26.162
the, when the encounters happen, that
this is sort of a, a daily rhythm.

00:47:26.192 --> 00:47:29.272
Again, whether it's five minutes
on a lunch break or, you know, some

00:47:29.272 --> 00:47:33.152
people do 15 or 20 or 30 minutes
journaling at the end of the day.

00:47:33.152 --> 00:47:38.512
Like w-, we, we do recommend, we
do recommend regular reflection.

00:47:39.402 --> 00:47:41.952
We talk a lot about
getting into action, too.

00:47:42.422 --> 00:47:44.702
You know, transformation
doesn't come from information.

00:47:45.642 --> 00:47:48.262
If it did, we would
already all be transformed.

00:47:48.944 --> 00:47:49.254
Michael: Right.

00:47:49.322 --> 00:47:51.202
Kurt: You know, growth is
not just about knowledge.

00:47:51.282 --> 00:47:56.312
So, so we, w-, we, we believe in this
sort of cycle that says we, we bring

00:47:56.312 --> 00:48:00.622
in, we take in information in our
brains, we practice it, and then we

00:48:00.622 --> 00:48:02.402
get to reflect and see how that worked.

00:48:03.182 --> 00:48:05.472
So it has to be some sort of
regular rhythm of like getting

00:48:05.472 --> 00:48:06.612
into action around things.

00:48:07.532 --> 00:48:11.042
But also like, this is gonna sound
silly and maybe it's gonna sound like

00:48:11.042 --> 00:48:12.822
it doesn't need to be said, but rest.

00:48:13.992 --> 00:48:18.162
We, we think re-, like
intentional physical rest is key.

00:48:19.512 --> 00:48:24.242
I, I, I think we as humans have limits
and those limits are often good.

00:48:25.312 --> 00:48:29.232
And, and when we can kind of embrace
limits and get physical rest, I think

00:48:29.232 --> 00:48:32.582
then that allows us to, to kind of
get into this conversation around

00:48:32.582 --> 00:48:34.362
alignment mu-, from a much better place.

00:48:35.338 --> 00:48:35.528
Michael: Yeah.

00:48:35.528 --> 00:48:39.768
It's such a great reminder, too, like
rest is important to us and it's part

00:48:39.768 --> 00:48:41.388
of that taking care of ourselves,

00:48:41.418 --> 00:48:41.768
Kurt: Yeah.

00:48:42.048 --> 00:48:42.258
Michael: right?

00:48:42.258 --> 00:48:44.328
And if we don't take care of ourselves,
it's hard to show up for others.

00:48:44.328 --> 00:48:45.368
It's hard to show up for work.

00:48:45.388 --> 00:48:47.718
It's hard to show up for your family.

00:48:47.728 --> 00:48:48.718
It's hard to show up for

00:48:48.874 --> 00:48:49.154
Kurt: Yeah.

00:48:49.208 --> 00:48:50.218
Michael: whatever it is that
you want to show up for,

00:48:50.374 --> 00:48:50.744
Kurt: Yeah.

00:48:50.818 --> 00:48:51.118
Michael: Right?

00:48:51.158 --> 00:48:58.618
And rest is really, it's, you know,
especially as a working father, you can

00:48:58.618 --> 00:49:01.048
have a lot going on in your life, right?

00:49:01.048 --> 00:49:03.338
You can have all your
work stuff you have to do.

00:49:03.348 --> 00:49:06.638
You have all the kids' activities
that you want to attend.

00:49:06.918 --> 00:49:07.938
You still have to run errands.

00:49:07.938 --> 00:49:10.478
You still have to take care of
things, whatever it may be, right?

00:49:10.478 --> 00:49:12.988
And you still have to show up for your
spouse and for everybody else, right?

00:49:13.036 --> 00:49:13.226
Kurt: Yeah.

00:49:13.256 --> 00:49:13.316
Yeah.

00:49:13.708 --> 00:49:19.178
Michael: It's some-, it's sometimes
we deprioritize taking care

00:49:19.178 --> 00:49:22.058
of ourselves, and that usually
starts with lack of rest, right?

00:49:22.202 --> 00:49:22.502
Kurt: Yeah.

00:49:22.898 --> 00:49:25.628
Michael: That's like the first thing
that is easiest to cut because there's

00:49:25.628 --> 00:49:26.808
just no time left for it, so it's a

00:49:27.018 --> 00:49:27.388
Kurt: Yeah.

00:49:27.388 --> 00:49:29.468
Michael: great reminder that we need to,

00:49:31.588 --> 00:49:34.278
to re-, to remember to rest, right?

00:49:34.288 --> 00:49:39.108
And so from great reminders and smart
ideas to not so smart and not so

00:49:39.108 --> 00:49:41.752
great questions, but here's comes the
speed round if you're ready for it.

00:49:41.802 --> 00:49:42.182
Kurt: Yeah,

00:49:42.308 --> 00:49:42.458
Michael: Five quick questions

00:49:42.582 --> 00:49:43.032
Kurt: let's go.

00:49:43.168 --> 00:49:43.838
Michael: that have nothing
to do with anything.

00:49:44.238 --> 00:49:47.188
Starting with, what's the first kids
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:49:47.532 --> 00:49:49.068
Kurt: Phineas and Ferb.

00:49:49.068 --> 00:49:50.662
Phineas and Ferb, love it.

00:49:51.412 --> 00:49:53.932
I, I might watch it as an
adult still today, Michael.

00:49:55.060 --> 00:49:55.720
Michael: No shame.

00:49:56.530 --> 00:49:57.520
No shame admitting that.

00:49:58.160 --> 00:49:59.270
What was your very first job?

00:49:59.826 --> 00:50:00.656
Kurt: I worked at Pizza Hut.

00:50:00.706 --> 00:50:01.806
I was a p-, I made pizzas

00:50:02.578 --> 00:50:03.468
Michael: Excellent, excellent.

00:50:03.538 --> 00:50:06.048
And would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:50:06.068 --> 00:50:07.898
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:50:09.026 --> 00:50:11.986
Kurt: Toddler-sized T-Rex, 1000000%.

00:50:12.386 --> 00:50:12.536
That's easy.

00:50:12.756 --> 00:50:13.046
Michael: Why is that?

00:50:14.336 --> 00:50:18.526
Kurt: A, yeah, Michael, I, I have a
friend who happens to be a youth pastor,

00:50:18.536 --> 00:50:23.076
and he, he, he said to me once, he's
like: "Look, parents either really

00:50:23.076 --> 00:50:27.386
enjoy and are good at toddler parenting,
or they're really good at and enjoy,

00:50:27.716 --> 00:50:34.096
like, tween and teen parenting." I,
I did not enjoy toddler phase, and

00:50:34.096 --> 00:50:35.426
I'm not even ashamed to say that.

00:50:35.636 --> 00:50:40.856
I, like, the imaginative play
stuff, the, like constant watching,

00:50:40.856 --> 00:50:43.996
like, "Are you gonna fall down
the stairs?" I, too much for me.

00:50:44.016 --> 00:50:46.276
So give me that T-Rex any day of the week.

00:50:47.284 --> 00:50:47.834
Michael: Great answer.

00:50:47.944 --> 00:50:48.464
Great answer.

00:50:48.924 --> 00:50:51.504
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:50:52.300 --> 00:50:54.280
Kurt: "I Only Want To Be With
You" by Hootie & the Blowfish.

00:50:54.976 --> 00:50:55.306
Michael: Wow.

00:50:55.550 --> 00:50:55.910
Kurt: Easy.

00:50:55.950 --> 00:50:56.660
That one's easy.

00:50:57.016 --> 00:50:58.266
Michael: Yeah, I haven't
heard that in a long time.

00:50:58.436 --> 00:50:59.736
Sounds like you'd have the
right voice for it, too.

00:50:59.944 --> 00:51:00.424
Kurt: I do.

00:51:00.594 --> 00:51:02.924
And you just don't move your, you don't
move your lips at all, and you just

00:51:02.924 --> 00:51:04.554
go super deep and anybody can do it.

00:51:06.140 --> 00:51:06.650
Michael: That's awesome.

00:51:07.240 --> 00:51:08.030
I gotta hear that someday.

00:51:08.540 --> 00:51:10.460
And finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:51:10.460 --> 00:51:12.100
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:51:13.780 --> 00:51:14.280
Kurt: Oh, wow.

00:51:15.990 --> 00:51:17.810
Boy, that's the first
one that caught me off.

00:51:18.450 --> 00:51:19.950
Well, he-, here's what came to mind.

00:51:20.260 --> 00:51:23.490
I just got my first pair of
reading glasses, Michael, and

00:51:23.490 --> 00:51:25.090
that feels so weird to me.

00:51:25.170 --> 00:51:27.650
Like, I'm not, I'm not old
enough to have reading glasses.

00:51:27.650 --> 00:51:29.320
So I think I'm gonna say reading glasses.

00:51:29.350 --> 00:51:31.290
I don't know what else to
say, but it feels really weird

00:51:31.300 --> 00:51:32.120
to me, and I don't like it.

00:51:33.276 --> 00:51:33.546
Michael: Yeah.

00:51:33.926 --> 00:51:34.366
That's fair.

00:51:34.366 --> 00:51:38.016
I think we're at similar stages of
life where, you know, w-, I just

00:51:38.016 --> 00:51:40.306
had my eyes examined like two weeks
ago, and they're like, "You're

00:51:40.336 --> 00:51:42.936
getting really close to needing
bifocals." I'm like, "Come on now."

00:51:43.114 --> 00:51:44.594
Kurt: It comes for all of us, doesn't it?

00:51:44.596 --> 00:51:44.906
Michael: Right.

00:51:45.176 --> 00:51:46.176
I still have kids in high school.

00:51:46.176 --> 00:51:47.626
Like, I'm not that old, right?

00:51:49.586 --> 00:51:51.376
Well, Kurt, this has been
a great conversation.

00:51:51.376 --> 00:51:54.006
Before we wrap up, though, I want
to give you space to point people

00:51:54.006 --> 00:51:55.376
in the, the right direction.

00:51:55.376 --> 00:51:57.716
Where can people go to learn more
about your work, connect with you, or

00:51:57.776 --> 00:51:59.036
dive deeper into what you're building?

00:51:59.466 --> 00:52:02.686
Kurt: Yeah, so our, our coaching practice
is called Brimstone Coaching Group, and

00:52:02.686 --> 00:52:05.056
our website is brimstonecoachinggroup.com.

00:52:05.846 --> 00:52:09.056
You can find out more about
me, my coaching partner, Chris.

00:52:09.616 --> 00:52:12.086
There's also links on there if
people wanna have a free, no

00:52:12.086 --> 00:52:15.016
obligation conversation with us
to see if our philosophies line

00:52:15.016 --> 00:52:16.166
up with where they feel stuck.

00:52:16.166 --> 00:52:17.286
We would love to do that.

00:52:18.006 --> 00:52:19.236
We, we also, I mean, there's links on it.

00:52:19.266 --> 00:52:19.836
We have a book.

00:52:19.866 --> 00:52:22.886
I don't know, I'm not a real
self-promoter, Michael, but we,

00:52:22.906 --> 00:52:25.386
we do have a book that's available
anywhere you get books called

00:52:25.386 --> 00:52:26.866
Live Fully, Lead Authentically.

00:52:27.436 --> 00:52:30.476
Just another glimpse into who
we are and why we do what we do.

00:52:31.544 --> 00:52:31.704
Michael: Awesome.

00:52:31.704 --> 00:52:34.544
I'll make sure to put links to all
those in the show notes, including

00:52:34.544 --> 00:52:38.704
links to, to your book, "Live Fully,
Lead Authentically." If you're not

00:52:38.704 --> 00:52:39.804
gonna promote it, I'm going to for you.

00:52:39.920 --> 00:52:40.590
Kurt: Thanks, Michael.

00:52:40.830 --> 00:52:41.190
Thanks.

00:52:41.844 --> 00:52:43.454
Michael: Kurt, I really
appreciate this conversation.

00:52:43.454 --> 00:52:46.984
There's a lot here that I think is
going to really hit home for dads who

00:52:46.984 --> 00:52:51.664
are, they're doing a lot on the outside
right, but something still kind of

00:52:51.664 --> 00:52:56.714
feels off underneath, and, I think the
more conversations that we have about

00:52:56.714 --> 00:53:01.274
this, the more apparent it becomes
that, like, we do need to do that inner

00:53:01.274 --> 00:53:07.084
work, but at the same time, it doesn't
have to be as overwhelming as we tend

00:53:07.104 --> 00:53:08.974
to make it out to be initially, right?

00:53:09.874 --> 00:53:14.734
I just love your philosophy of starting
simple and working your way through

00:53:14.734 --> 00:53:16.844
it and just taking action, right?

00:53:17.014 --> 00:53:20.004
And that action doesn't have
to be these grand gestures.

00:53:20.784 --> 00:53:22.054
It, it can start small.

00:53:22.434 --> 00:53:23.394
Take the first step.

00:53:23.924 --> 00:53:28.274
I appreciate you bringing both the honesty
and the practicality to this conversation,

00:53:28.274 --> 00:53:31.864
and thank you again for chatting with
me and coming on and sharing your story.

00:53:32.284 --> 00:53:34.444
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:53:34.444 --> 00:53:37.134
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

00:53:37.404 --> 00:53:40.184
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:53:40.444 --> 00:53:43.834
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:53:43.874 --> 00:53:45.104
and what really matters right now.

00:53:45.554 --> 00:53:47.814
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:53:47.814 --> 00:53:50.734
dad who might need to hear
next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:53:50.994 --> 00:53:52.844
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.