Mylena Sutton on the Conversations Working Dads Keep Avoiding

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Mylena: Just because the people in
your life have needs, it doesn't

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mean that your needs don't matter,
even if those people are children.

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You've gotta figure out within
that, you know, how do you carve

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out some part of you for you?

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You just… I love the kids, I love the
parents, I love all of these things,

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but you've gotta reserve, it's almost
like paying a tithe to yourself.

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You've gotta take some part of that

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Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show for
dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
today's guest is Mylena Sutton, known

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as The Leadership Fanatic, Mylena's a
consultant and growth coach who helps

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people face the conversations they've
been avoiding, both at work and at home.

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Michael: Her core belief
is simple, but not easy.

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All leadership is personal.

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The way you show up in one part of your
life shows up everywhere, which means

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the habits, patterns, and conversations
you avoid at home don't just stay there.

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They follow you into your
work and everything else.

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She's also the creator of The Leadership
Drives, a podcast where she travels

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across the country interviewing
people about what actually drives

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them to lead and live the way they do.

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Mylena pushes people to align
everything, not just optimize pieces.

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And she's known for saying the
thing people are already thinking,

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but haven't said out loud yet.

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Mylena, I'm really excited
to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm so glad you're here.

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Mylena: Thank you.

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I am looking forward to our conversation.

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I appreciate the invitation.

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Michael: Likewise.

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So one of the things that stood out to
me right away is this idea that there

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isn't a quote unquote work version
of you and a home version of you.

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It's just you.

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Mylena: It is you.

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Michael: So, I kind of wanna start there.

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Like when you look at dads right
now who are trying to show up at

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work and at home, where do you
see things starting to break down?

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Mylena: At first, of all this,
there's this idea that frankly, you

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are different at home versus being at
work, and that's just simply not true.

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What happens in different
environments, you are concerned

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about different consequences.

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So think of it this way.

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The people at your job, they might like
you, but they may not tolerate as much

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from you as your family members might.

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And therefore, we take liberties with
the people who are in our personal lives.

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But if in fact, if we are
honest with ourselves, if the

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consequences were equal in the same
environment, our behavior would be.

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Give you an example.

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I did a, just a social media survey
with an HR group that I was facilitated

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a workshop for, and I asked them about
their conflict styles at work, and

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then I asked them to talk about their
conflict styles at home, and almost

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every one of them said at home they
were sometimes perhaps a little bit

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more confrontational because they
didn't necessarily have the same fears.

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Whereas at work, perhaps, you're
worried about an ongoing pettiness

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with a coworker, that kind of thing.

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At home, you feel safer,
you behave differently.

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Michael: That's so interesting.

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I never really, when I think
about it, I don't put a lot of

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thought into the environment

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Mylena: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: that I'm in, right, or
like which group of people I'm with.

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Is it like family friends group
or is it a work group, right?

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It's, I just kind of go by default
into whichever environment I'm

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in and just kind of interact.

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But when you break it down, it
makes so much sense to me of like,

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okay, yeah, I do behave differently
in different environments, right?

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And like you said, there's like a comfort

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Mylena: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: level there or a
difference in comfort level

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between home and work, whether…

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Mylena: And part of what you're doing,
too, in terms of that different comfort

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level, when you go into different
spaces, your agenda is different as well.

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Think about it, you wanna be
regarded differently at work.

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And you may not care how your
Uncle Tony feels about you.

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You know, it's, we behave in a way
where I don't think we realize that we

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can be subtly manipulative as people,
even if we're not conscious of it.

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When we go in spaces, we're looking for
two things, either safety or to get what

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we want, and that dictates our behavior.

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Michael: That's a great point.

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When you say that we can be manipulative,
are we also manipulating ourselves?

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Mylena: I think sometimes we
are honest with ourselves.

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We don't do necessarily that personal
internal work that we need to do to ask

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ourselves what's driving our behavior.

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I also think the word manipulative has a
negative connotation to it, when in fact,

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I think that's just kind of human nature?

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Michael: Yeah.

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Mylena: I feel, you know,
we aim to get what we want.

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It's almost kind of like
what survival is in a way.

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We are doing the thing that
we need to do to survive.

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And I think part of how we manipulate
the environment, frankly, is again, going

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back to what do we want from this space?

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And sometimes we delude ourselves
about what our real motivation is.

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Michael: Right.

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And sometimes we avoid the
conversations altogether, right, like?

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Mylena: Oh, absolutely.

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Michael: And, and you talk, you've
talked to me a lot about like avoiding

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conversations or avoided conversations.

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Where do those conversations that
we avoid start to show up like

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at home and work, like why do
we avoid certain conversations?

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Mylena: I think it's pretty complicated
sometimes about why we avoid.

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Sometimes we are worried about
exposing ourselves and sometimes we

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are worried about the other person.

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But oftentimes what avoidance
really is, is you feeling stuck.

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It's this idea that no matter what I
say, no matter what it is that I do,

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there is no way for me to win here.

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Somebody's gonna come out with a bruise,
whether it's me or the other person,

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and we don't often give that enough
credit in the sense of what it means.

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Not that I'm avoiding because
I'm just a terrible person, I'm

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lazy, but I actually feel stuck.

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I'll give you an example, and I'll
give you a couple different examples.

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I have some clients who have challenges at
home, but they don't want to come home and

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give their spouse the impression that they
are combative, that they're not agreeable,

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that they're constantly nitpicking.

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So what they choose to do is
figure out what their tolerance

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level is for a particular problem.

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And the issue is they go all
the way to that level and

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then they explode sometimes.

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And what we have to figure out is
how do we let a little bit of that

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pressure off, and then how do we also
build the confidence and the trust

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in our relationships so that the
people we love, the people who we are

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attached to, can hold that tension.

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I can tell you that you
have certain habits.

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Or certain predilections that
really bother me and not hate you.

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And to make space to hold both of
those truths, it requires that we

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take risks in our relationships.

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Michael: That's really interesting
that there, the reason for

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avoidance, it could be many
different things, as you said, right?

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Like, it could be that you're
not confident in the situation.

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You're afraid of something
that's happening.

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It could be a lot of things, but then

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avoiding it oftentimes
will make it more intense.

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It'll make it more not give
you the outcome that you,

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you are trying to achieve.

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How does someone who is
avoiding a conversation, how

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do they kind of overcome that?

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Is it just building up confidence or
is there something more they should be

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doing to, or they just have to like, just
grin and bear and just, you know, run

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right through the wall and, and do it?

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Like how do you overcome
avoiding conversations?

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Mylena: It's funny, as you were talking,
I was thinking about a difficult

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conversation I had a couple of years
ago with my mother, and this is gonna

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sound horrible, but it's still true.

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I didn't grow up with my mom.

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My mom was a teen parent, so I
grew up with my grandparents,

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and our relationship has always
had a bit of ebb and flow to it.

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And several years ago my grandmother died,
and my mother and I have had this constant

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strain of conflict and because I know she
feels guilty about being a teen parent.

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I was that person.

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I'm not gonna say anything
about the things that drive her

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nuts or drive me nuts because I
don't wanna hurt her feelings.

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She's super emotional.

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She cries all the time, and in my mind,
I, I felt stuck because I felt like I

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can't be honest about how I truly feel,
but I also don't want to give her a

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false impression about where I am because
I worry that that's going to invite

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behavior to, that I don't like even more.

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So day we got into it, I can't remember
what started it, but I exploded.

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It was like projectile vomit.

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I mean, at one point I was seeing stars.

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I think everything I thought over the last
10 years just came up and out, and here's

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the horrible part, but the great part.

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I meant every single word.

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The only thing I didn't intend was
for it to come out in that setting at

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that time, and perhaps in that way.

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And that is the thing about avoiding.

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When the issue is something that
you have to deal with, but you

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avoid it, it builds like that.

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Now, there are a couple things you
wanna think about in terms of avoiding,

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there are some conflicts, some tough
conversations I recommend that you avoid

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if your relationship is inconsequential
to me, I don't see you often, I am

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not spending that energy on you.

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I am absolutely not gonna do it.

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But if you are someone who is going to
be a regular character in my life, if you

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are someone who I am not going to see only
at funerals and weddings, then I have to

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deal with issues that come up with you.

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And, and the way that you have to deal
with it is this, I, I know this is gonna

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sound horrible, but you gotta think
about how you start the conversation.

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Because I think what also
gives us reassurance is to

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know we've done our part.

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So one of the things that I tell people
often is this, when you have a difficult

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conversation and you don't know where
to get started, start by telling the

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person you need to talk to just that.

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We need to have a conversation, and I am
doing my best to think well about you so

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that you can hear my intent, so that you
hear my spirit and it might hurt, but I

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don't want it to hurt more than it has to,
but we do need to talk about this thing.

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And from there you use your
sense of emotional intelligence.

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You work on your own
sense of self-control.

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You take baby steps
through that conversation.

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You might need to take pauses.

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Just because a conversation starts
today doesn't mean we have to

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finish it today, but you have to.

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It's, it's kind of like getting out
into, I live in Jersey on the shore.

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You kind of just kind of
gotta walk out into the water.

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I mean, at some point the water's only
gonna come up to the beach so far.

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Michael: Right, right.

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This is the advice I've
needed my whole life, I think.

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Right.

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It's like I, I've been there, like
I've let things boil up into the

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point of like, explosion, right?

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And it's, it's not fair to the
person I'm doing it to, even

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if I felt like they harmed me.

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But it's also not fair to myself to
allow myself to get to that point,

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to that stage, and the idea of how
you present it, how you come to the

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table prepared of like, this is how
I'm gonna start the conversation.

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And there's this sense of radical honesty,

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Mylena: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: right, of like, this may hurt.

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Mylena: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: I need you to hear this.

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Mylena: I need you to hear it.

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Michael: And it's, I think as dads
it's easy for us to bottle that

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up, oftentimes, of like, we don't
need to, we kind of just gloss over

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things and move on to the next step.

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Lives are busy.

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We have lots of things going on, lots
of people coming in and out, right?

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We have to get kids to activities.

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We have to, you know, support
them in their schoolwork and

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just their personal development.

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And we don't take enough time to think
about what are the things that are

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affecting us, what are the things that we
are avoiding that maybe if we took just

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a couple minutes to think through that
we can address some of those things so

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they aren't a burden on us, so that we
can then show up more for, for others.

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And I think what you said is probably
the first practical strategy I think

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I've ever heard for how do you avoid
those avoided conversations or how do you

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address those avoided conversations rather

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because you make it sound
so simple and it's like, why

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haven't I been doing that for,

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Mylena: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: you know, all my life?

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Mylena: But you know, I think the reason
people avoid it, not only do we not

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know how to approach them, oftentimes
I think we, again, we just give into

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that sense of feeling perpetually stuck.

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Like there's no way that this
is going to work out well.

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And I think we just have to be willing
to trust that we can overcome that.

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And the other part, too, is recognizing
that you don't have to be perfect in

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your approach and in your delivery.

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But you do wanna be thoughtful.

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You want to be careful.

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You want to convey that you are
being as thoughtful as you can

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be, but you don't have to be
perfect in terms of the execution.

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You don't have to be.

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And I think with dads, and men in
particular, when issues come up that

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involve squishy stuff, the emotions, I
think because we live in a culture where

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we don't invite men to explore that half
of themselves in terms of how they feel.

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It's always the woman is the
emotional one and he is logic.

00:13:48.515 --> 00:13:52.085
If you buy into that kind of trope,
then as a man, I think you often

00:13:52.085 --> 00:13:56.525
feel even more stuck because as
women, we get, even though I hate

00:13:56.525 --> 00:13:57.905
it when people say we're emotional.

00:13:58.995 --> 00:14:02.925
I like the fact that we are at
least allowed to be emotional.

00:14:03.075 --> 00:14:05.865
Of course, you balance all that
good stuff, but with men, you don't

00:14:05.865 --> 00:14:10.395
have access to that as often, and I
think what it turns into is not only

00:14:10.605 --> 00:14:16.215
avoidance, but it also turns into looking
for other ways to soothe yourself.

00:14:17.760 --> 00:14:19.530
I'll give you an example of that.

00:14:19.740 --> 00:14:25.290
I have a friend, and he has
some challenges, and he he,

00:14:25.380 --> 00:14:26.820
he just feels really stuck.

00:14:27.180 --> 00:14:28.110
He's that person.

00:14:28.170 --> 00:14:31.550
He works 12 hour days every day
when he could go home at eight.

00:14:31.955 --> 00:14:32.235
Michael: Mm-hmm.

00:14:32.235 --> 00:14:38.355
Mylena: He is using work as a drug, if
you will, to give himself some breathing

00:14:38.355 --> 00:14:43.095
space so that when he gets home, most,
his kids are almost ready to go to bed.

00:14:43.275 --> 00:14:45.015
You know, so, not a lot of time with that.

00:14:45.045 --> 00:14:50.985
He and his wife, they become ships passing
in the night, and I'm like, dude, go home.

00:14:51.990 --> 00:14:52.110
Michael: Yeah.

00:14:52.560 --> 00:14:53.175
Mylena: Go home.

00:14:53.175 --> 00:14:54.615
You've gotta face that.

00:14:55.410 --> 00:14:55.740
Michael: Right.

00:14:56.520 --> 00:14:56.760
Yeah.

00:14:56.760 --> 00:14:58.800
And it just, you're building up, right?

00:14:58.800 --> 00:14:59.370
Like,

00:14:59.745 --> 00:15:00.135
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:15:00.310 --> 00:15:05.625
Michael: the more you avoid it, the,
the more pressure that builds, and

00:15:05.625 --> 00:15:07.525
at some point you can't work 24/7.

00:15:08.520 --> 00:15:09.195
Mylena: No, you can't.

00:15:09.495 --> 00:15:09.705
Michael: Right?

00:15:09.705 --> 00:15:13.485
You do have to go home and rest, and it's
gonna be, get more and more difficult

00:15:13.485 --> 00:15:19.005
to rest and recharge and do those
things if you've built up this sense

00:15:19.005 --> 00:15:22.275
of stress at home or vice versa, right?

00:15:22.275 --> 00:15:22.575
Like…

00:15:22.785 --> 00:15:24.735
Mylena: They know that
something is off, too.

00:15:24.885 --> 00:15:27.885
It's kind of like, okay, so both
of us are gonna pretend like

00:15:27.885 --> 00:15:29.265
the elephant isn't at the table.

00:15:29.580 --> 00:15:29.910
Michael: Right.

00:15:30.255 --> 00:15:31.935
Mylena: So, it's not
like we're missing it.

00:15:31.935 --> 00:15:33.795
We're just, again,
we're dancing around it.

00:15:34.440 --> 00:15:35.280
Michael: Right, right.

00:15:35.700 --> 00:15:43.170
There's something you said earlier too
that really sticks with me of like you,

00:15:43.350 --> 00:15:47.580
the ones that you don't avoid conflict
with are the ones that are perpetually

00:15:47.580 --> 00:15:51.330
in your life, right, are the ones that
you are going to see on a regular basis.

00:15:51.990 --> 00:15:55.275
And, you know, you only have
so much time in the day,

00:15:55.515 --> 00:15:55.875
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:15:56.145 --> 00:15:56.385
Michael: right?

00:15:56.385 --> 00:15:58.875
And so it's like, how do you
best use that time, right?

00:15:58.875 --> 00:16:01.755
We all have limited number of hours in the
day, limited number of days in the week.

00:16:01.920 --> 00:16:02.340
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:16:02.385 --> 00:16:06.255
Michael: Do we spend all our time
just going off on people or do

00:16:06.255 --> 00:16:10.365
we just, you know, like we gotta
pick and choose our battles?

00:16:10.365 --> 00:16:12.195
Like how do we make the
most of our time, right?

00:16:12.195 --> 00:16:13.605
And it's the ones that we care about most.

00:16:13.605 --> 00:16:14.805
The ones we spend our time with most.

00:16:14.805 --> 00:16:16.215
Those are the ones we have to address.

00:16:16.515 --> 00:16:18.355
And there's some that are just,
they're not worth your time.

00:16:19.215 --> 00:16:22.545
Right, and it's, you're, you
see them once every six years,

00:16:22.785 --> 00:16:23.055
Mylena: Yep.

00:16:23.255 --> 00:16:23.925
Michael: eh, right?

00:16:24.615 --> 00:16:29.955
I'll just let it go, and I will
focus on my, like, not only do I

00:16:29.955 --> 00:16:31.845
have a limited amount of time, but
I have a limited amount of energy.

00:16:31.995 --> 00:16:32.265
Mylena: Yep.

00:16:32.355 --> 00:16:35.775
Michael: And to address these
things requires energy, right?

00:16:35.775 --> 00:16:42.210
And so it's like, how do you figure
out, like, where to spend your energy.

00:16:42.210 --> 00:16:45.030
Well, first thing is, which ones are
actually going to affect your life?

00:16:45.030 --> 00:16:47.190
And it's the ones that are
there that show up regularly.

00:16:47.190 --> 00:16:48.090
I think it's so important.

00:16:48.210 --> 00:16:51.300
I just wanted to call that out
because it's so easy to be like,

00:16:51.300 --> 00:16:54.720
okay, well all these, I've got all
these different grievances, right?

00:16:54.720 --> 00:16:56.250
Or I've got grievances with
two or three different people.

00:16:56.730 --> 00:17:01.740
You really only have so much
energy to address one, I don't

00:17:01.740 --> 00:17:03.030
know, maybe two at a time, right?

00:17:03.030 --> 00:17:05.430
But it's like you're not gonna
be able to do everything, so

00:17:05.520 --> 00:17:07.470
which ones are most important to,

00:17:07.860 --> 00:17:08.250
Mylena: I, I would,

00:17:08.520 --> 00:17:09.480
Michael: to addressing first?

00:17:09.810 --> 00:17:14.670
Mylena: I would say this in terms of
addressing your conflict I kind of have

00:17:14.670 --> 00:17:16.560
some patterns and things like that.

00:17:16.770 --> 00:17:20.160
So, like you, look, I
have lots of things to do.

00:17:20.340 --> 00:17:22.500
I'm not addressing every
little thing that bothers me.

00:17:22.500 --> 00:17:26.160
So, first and foremost, some things
we've gotta also look at as, are

00:17:26.160 --> 00:17:28.020
these just the petty things of life?

00:17:28.950 --> 00:17:33.300
You know, or is it something
that's going to become a pattern?

00:17:33.360 --> 00:17:35.160
And that's what I want people to look for.

00:17:35.340 --> 00:17:39.900
The first time something happens that
really drives you nuts or really sits

00:17:39.900 --> 00:17:42.570
with you the wrong way, consider it.

00:17:42.810 --> 00:17:44.010
Think about what happened.

00:17:44.490 --> 00:17:45.840
Memo to the file.

00:17:46.710 --> 00:17:50.475
I hated this, and maybe
you decide to sit on it.

00:17:52.080 --> 00:17:56.790
If that same thing happens again,
particularly at a short interval,

00:17:57.270 --> 00:18:01.170
that's your key that you need to have
a conversation because by the time the

00:18:01.170 --> 00:18:05.760
third incident happens, you're gonna
already be halfway up conflict mountain.

00:18:05.820 --> 00:18:09.270
You know, you're all, you're on your
way to the summit already, because

00:18:09.420 --> 00:18:14.490
in your mind, this is a pattern now,
but for that other person, they may

00:18:14.490 --> 00:18:18.600
not know just how much it annoys
you or whatever that behavior is.

00:18:18.755 --> 00:18:21.695
So, again, the first time, you
may decide to let it go depending

00:18:21.695 --> 00:18:23.165
on what it is, but take note.

00:18:24.195 --> 00:18:24.585
Michael: Yeah.

00:18:24.760 --> 00:18:27.020
Mylena: The second time, we
need to have a conversation.

00:18:27.180 --> 00:18:30.060
The only thing I would say with
respect to the second time, I wouldn't

00:18:30.060 --> 00:18:34.110
have the conversation in the same
breath that the situation happened.

00:18:34.320 --> 00:18:36.570
Because at that point,
it's like a flash fire.

00:18:37.080 --> 00:18:40.440
You know, you're mad, you're ticked
off, but when you've gotten to a point

00:18:40.440 --> 00:18:46.230
where, okay, I'm calm enough so that I
am not yelling or have a hostile body

00:18:46.230 --> 00:18:48.690
language, I need to have a conversation.

00:18:50.310 --> 00:18:55.440
Michael: That, great point of like
separating yourself from the situation

00:18:55.530 --> 00:18:57.090
in order to address it first, right?

00:18:57.735 --> 00:18:57.745
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:18:59.100 --> 00:19:03.420
Michael: I found that useful myself
of like in high conflict scenarios

00:19:04.200 --> 00:19:09.600
that it's very easy to respond
with emotion in the moment, right?

00:19:09.780 --> 00:19:13.410
But when you separate yourself, you're
able to calm that emotion and then

00:19:13.410 --> 00:19:18.870
address it in a more, for me, I guess,
productive pattern or proactive pattern

00:19:18.870 --> 00:19:21.600
of like, okay, this is why it bothered me.

00:19:21.600 --> 00:19:23.370
This is how I would like
to see it go forward.

00:19:23.370 --> 00:19:24.060
How do we

00:19:24.435 --> 00:19:24.705
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:19:24.860 --> 00:19:29.340
Michael: make sure this changes so that
we don't keep having this situation

00:19:29.535 --> 00:19:30.165
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:19:30.510 --> 00:19:30.990
Michael: occur?

00:19:31.860 --> 00:19:34.230
Do you think, you know, you,
you talk about patterns.

00:19:34.950 --> 00:19:38.010
Are the patterns what cause resentment?

00:19:38.070 --> 00:19:43.440
Is it the repetition that is causing
resentment or is it the actual action

00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.330
that is causing resentment or is it both?

00:19:45.990 --> 00:19:47.250
Mylena: I think it's a couple things.

00:19:47.250 --> 00:19:52.300
I think oftentimes when something
really bothers us, we don't necessarily

00:19:52.300 --> 00:19:57.270
recognize that we ourselves bring
certain things to the table.

00:19:57.420 --> 00:20:00.060
You've gotta ask yourself, why
does that one particular behavior

00:20:00.060 --> 00:20:01.620
drive me nuts all the time.

00:20:01.830 --> 00:20:02.700
I'll give you an example.

00:20:02.700 --> 00:20:08.370
One of my friends, granted her
parents were educators, but even

00:20:08.370 --> 00:20:11.040
it's just girlfriend conversation,
if you say certain things, she feels

00:20:11.040 --> 00:20:13.440
the need to correct or to explain.

00:20:13.740 --> 00:20:16.440
And one day I said to her,
I am not your student.

00:20:16.440 --> 00:20:17.430
I'm not your kid.

00:20:17.430 --> 00:20:18.990
Stop explaining crap to me.

00:20:19.805 --> 00:20:22.925
She had no clue how annoying that was.

00:20:23.405 --> 00:20:25.265
Now, the issue is interesting.

00:20:25.385 --> 00:20:26.975
She saw it as simply normal.

00:20:26.975 --> 00:20:29.825
She saw herself, I guess, as
a teacher in our friendship.

00:20:30.125 --> 00:20:33.755
And then for me, I think part of what
bothered me in the unspoken thing

00:20:33.755 --> 00:20:37.865
about that we come from very different
cultural backgrounds, and I saw

00:20:37.865 --> 00:20:39.605
that as a different type of slight.

00:20:39.785 --> 00:20:41.645
Who are you talking to?

00:20:41.915 --> 00:20:46.685
So with respect to that, you've
also gotta be willing to look at

00:20:46.865 --> 00:20:48.455
what's being triggered for you.

00:20:49.305 --> 00:20:49.455
Michael: Yep.

00:20:49.900 --> 00:20:51.660
Mylena: Because, sometimes,
we don't recognize, it's not

00:20:51.660 --> 00:20:53.370
always just the other person.

00:20:53.490 --> 00:20:55.170
Sometimes they need to be made aware.

00:20:55.350 --> 00:20:55.560
And

00:20:55.635 --> 00:20:55.815
Michael: Correct.

00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.040
Mylena: there are other things that
even if it is a cultural difference

00:20:59.040 --> 00:21:03.510
or even if it's something with you,
are you not worthy of the kind of

00:21:03.510 --> 00:21:07.640
respect and relationship that you
need, so that you're not always

00:21:08.060 --> 00:21:09.830
quieting certain parts of yourself?

00:21:09.890 --> 00:21:12.080
And that goes back to
something you said earlier.

00:21:12.290 --> 00:21:15.590
You owe it to the people that you are
in community and relationship with

00:21:15.740 --> 00:21:17.990
to say something before you blow up.

00:21:18.200 --> 00:21:24.470
Because while your grievance is often
valid, how you handle it is what matters.

00:21:24.710 --> 00:21:28.190
And with that being said, I often find,
too, sometimes we go off on people

00:21:28.370 --> 00:21:31.640
and then we avoid them after the fact
because we are ashamed of our behavior.

00:21:31.905 --> 00:21:32.145
Michael: Yeah.

00:21:32.520 --> 00:21:37.470
Mylena: So with respect to that, you've
gotta figure out, hey, I need to talk.

00:21:37.770 --> 00:21:40.320
I need to manage these
patterns that I see.

00:21:40.440 --> 00:21:45.210
I need to ask myself some questions,
and then I need to remember that even

00:21:45.210 --> 00:21:49.830
if I'm having a moment where I am really
upset, that is still a person that I

00:21:49.830 --> 00:21:51.605
love, and I don't intend to cut them off.

00:21:52.560 --> 00:22:02.130
Michael: Yeah, that's such a great point
of we tend to, you know, when we, are,

00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:07.230
feel slighted or we feel resentment, we
feel like, you know, we get negative,

00:22:07.230 --> 00:22:10.080
these negative thoughts, maybe it's
anger, maybe it's sadness, whatever it

00:22:10.080 --> 00:22:17.370
may be, and we, it's so easy to take it
out or express it verbally very quickly,

00:22:17.805 --> 00:22:18.165
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:22:19.440 --> 00:22:23.580
Michael: But then how does
that make the other party feel?

00:22:24.390 --> 00:22:26.700
Like, how willing are they then to change?

00:22:26.910 --> 00:22:29.520
Are they more willing to change
because you exploded at them?

00:22:29.590 --> 00:22:32.610
Or are they more willing to change because
you took a measured approach with them

00:22:32.610 --> 00:22:36.360
and you gave them the respect that they
felt like, just like you felt slighted

00:22:36.360 --> 00:22:40.800
when your friend was teaching you or was
quote, you know, quote unquote teaching

00:22:40.800 --> 00:22:44.970
you or trying to teach you, it's, you
know, there's this like level of almost

00:22:45.390 --> 00:22:52.110
condescension there of like, you know, I
am not beneath you, or I'm not less than.

00:22:52.440 --> 00:22:56.460
So if you want somebody to make
a change, if you show them the

00:22:56.460 --> 00:23:00.570
respect upfront, is it easier
then for them to make that change?

00:23:00.570 --> 00:23:03.780
Or are they more willing to make that
change than if you explode at them

00:23:03.780 --> 00:23:05.730
or treat them in a negative light?

00:23:06.120 --> 00:23:09.330
And I think from my experience,
you know, typically when I address

00:23:09.330 --> 00:23:11.730
something in a more measured approach
as to a more emotional approach,

00:23:12.630 --> 00:23:17.460
I seem to get the buy-in much
easier, much quicker, you know?

00:23:17.460 --> 00:23:22.080
And now, in retrospect, I'm thinking
like, okay, that's probably because

00:23:22.080 --> 00:23:25.995
I am showing the kind of respect
that I would like to see back.

00:23:26.175 --> 00:23:33.105
I'm demonstrating that to them and I'm,
whereas if I go at them at a, if I blow

00:23:33.105 --> 00:23:38.685
up and I, you know, start yelling or just
verbally, you know, not treating them

00:23:38.685 --> 00:23:42.105
well, they're gonna be like, oh, it's
gonna put 'em on the defensive, right,

00:23:42.165 --> 00:23:46.305
whereas you're not, I'm not providing them
the opportunity to be like, yeah, you know

00:23:46.305 --> 00:23:48.105
what, on second thought, you're right.

00:23:48.105 --> 00:23:51.765
Like, maybe I can make a change or
maybe I don't agree with you, but

00:23:51.765 --> 00:23:54.675
I think we can come to some sort of
agreement 'cause at least, you know,

00:23:55.125 --> 00:23:56.355
we're not making it confrontational.

00:23:56.355 --> 00:24:00.375
We're making it easy for them to stay
at the table and have the discussion.

00:24:02.475 --> 00:24:08.910
Mylena: I think part of the issue is
when you go off on somebody, particularly

00:24:08.910 --> 00:24:13.170
if they don't see it coming in terms of
timing, you might know the relationship is

00:24:13.170 --> 00:24:14.580
distressed, but you don't see it coming.

00:24:15.030 --> 00:24:19.800
Oftentimes, they respond from a place
of, I'm trying to get you to stop.

00:24:20.520 --> 00:24:22.500
That doesn't mean that
they really heard you.

00:24:23.145 --> 00:24:23.535
Michael: Right.

00:24:23.665 --> 00:24:25.545
Mylena: It doesn't mean that
they're changing their behavior.

00:24:25.635 --> 00:24:27.305
They're trying to put the fire out.

00:24:27.915 --> 00:24:34.005
What makes it a useful dialogue
is when the person understands

00:24:34.005 --> 00:24:34.785
where you're coming from.

00:24:34.965 --> 00:24:38.925
Even if they don't agree with you, you've
gotta at least understand one another.

00:24:39.075 --> 00:24:42.060
The essence of respect
then becomes a factor.

00:24:42.060 --> 00:24:47.945
Look, I don't agree with you about
A, B, or C, but if I can find a way

00:24:48.235 --> 00:24:53.300
to accommodate that or to honor it
or avoid stepping on that tender

00:24:53.300 --> 00:24:55.370
spot for you, I will do that.

00:24:55.520 --> 00:24:59.180
Or at least I'm going to let you know
what you can and can't expect from me.

00:24:59.570 --> 00:25:04.610
That is the value of having a conversation
when you're at a point where your fight

00:25:04.610 --> 00:25:09.470
or flight hackles have come down where
you can actually think, because in that

00:25:09.470 --> 00:25:12.110
moment, that's when you get the calm down.

00:25:12.500 --> 00:25:15.230
And that there's nothing
more patronizing than that.

00:25:15.380 --> 00:25:17.570
And that is like putting
water on a grease fire.

00:25:17.570 --> 00:25:18.770
It gets worse.

00:25:19.080 --> 00:25:19.260
Michael: Yeah.

00:25:19.610 --> 00:25:23.960
Mylena: And so with that, that's what
you wanna think about it is how do I make

00:25:23.960 --> 00:25:27.440
sure that the person can actually hear me?

00:25:29.145 --> 00:25:30.315
Michael: Such a great point again.

00:25:30.820 --> 00:25:32.535
I, I kinda wanna take a step back.

00:25:32.535 --> 00:25:36.915
We've talked about the
interpersonal conflicts.

00:25:36.915 --> 00:25:41.430
I wanna kind of talk about some
of the, the internal conflicts,

00:25:41.460 --> 00:25:43.320
particularly around alignment.

00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:47.580
You know, it sounds great to be
aligned between work and home and all

00:25:47.580 --> 00:25:50.940
your responsibilities, but it also
at the same time can feel abstract.

00:25:51.110 --> 00:25:51.400
Mylena: Okay.

00:25:51.870 --> 00:25:56.400
Michael: What does it actually mean
for a dad, or for anyone, to kind

00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:57.930
of align everything in their lives?

00:25:59.820 --> 00:26:03.390
Mylena: My definition of
leadership actually is alignment.

00:26:04.080 --> 00:26:04.350
Michael: Right.

00:26:04.650 --> 00:26:06.600
Mylena: So, the way I
look at it is like this.

00:26:06.930 --> 00:26:11.850
You've gotta figure out the direction that
you want to take your life in, your family

00:26:11.850 --> 00:26:13.770
in, and all different parts of your life.

00:26:14.010 --> 00:26:18.000
And once you figure out what that
direction is, to align it means

00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:22.110
essentially to look at which parts
of your life are gonna help you get

00:26:22.110 --> 00:26:26.370
there, and which parts of your life are
undermining your ability to get there.

00:26:27.010 --> 00:26:29.610
And from that particular place,
you've got some decisions to make.

00:26:29.880 --> 00:26:33.540
Either you're gonna slow down
the pace of your journey.

00:26:34.290 --> 00:26:37.050
You're either going to accept
that you might not make it if you

00:26:37.050 --> 00:26:38.400
have too many of those things.

00:26:38.610 --> 00:26:42.510
Or you're gonna have to make some
decisions about how to make adjustments,

00:26:42.510 --> 00:26:47.850
perhaps how to cut some distractions,
how to get the people in your life

00:26:48.030 --> 00:26:51.930
to understand that you are oriented
toward this particular direction, and

00:26:51.930 --> 00:26:53.640
you are inviting them to come along.

00:26:53.640 --> 00:26:56.550
You're inviting your children, your
family to come along, and we've gotta

00:26:56.550 --> 00:27:01.905
figure out what are the things that we
need to do so that we aren't cutting

00:27:01.905 --> 00:27:03.915
off our noses to spite our own faces.

00:27:04.155 --> 00:27:07.875
And that's really the essence of
alignment, is really making sure

00:27:08.025 --> 00:27:11.440
that all of our effort takes us in
the direction where we wanna go.

00:27:12.120 --> 00:27:15.780
Michael: Right, and that alignment
is both between work and home, right?

00:27:15.810 --> 00:27:19.620
Like, it, and it could go kind of in
both directions of sometimes this is more

00:27:19.620 --> 00:27:24.855
of a season of work where I need to put
more attention into what I'm trying to,

00:27:24.855 --> 00:27:27.735
I have this big goal at work that I'm
trying to accomplish, and that means I

00:27:27.735 --> 00:27:32.595
might need to, you know, be at work just
a little bit longer or have work in my

00:27:32.595 --> 00:27:36.195
mind a little bit more, but I need to
also still take care of my family, but

00:27:36.195 --> 00:27:39.435
I need to let them know, hey, I've got
a little bit more going on right now.

00:27:39.705 --> 00:27:42.075
This is kind of the adjustment
we're gonna make temporarily.

00:27:42.435 --> 00:27:43.845
And, they're, at the same time.

00:27:43.845 --> 00:27:45.765
It could be the other way around
of like, I need to spend more

00:27:45.765 --> 00:27:46.605
time with my family right now.

00:27:46.605 --> 00:27:48.585
I need to take a step back
from work, and if I can afford

00:27:48.585 --> 00:27:50.385
to do that, how do I do that?

00:27:50.415 --> 00:27:54.600
How do I still maintain what I need to
do, running my business or working for

00:27:54.600 --> 00:27:59.520
whoever I'm working for, but also, you
know, get that job done, but also be

00:27:59.520 --> 00:28:02.550
there for the ones that matter to me most.

00:28:02.550 --> 00:28:08.160
You know, maybe there's, there's some
big thing that my spouse is working

00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:10.560
on or maybe there's something that
my, I wanna be there for my kids.

00:28:10.560 --> 00:28:13.590
Maybe there's a health thing, whatever
it may be, of just finding that

00:28:13.590 --> 00:28:16.980
alignment between what is important
in that moment, but also help you

00:28:16.980 --> 00:28:18.960
get to your, to your long-term goals.

00:28:18.960 --> 00:28:22.935
So I guess really a long-winded
way of saying this kind of entails,

00:28:23.535 --> 00:28:24.585
it's all encompassing, right?

00:28:24.585 --> 00:28:27.855
It's not just work or home or self.

00:28:27.855 --> 00:28:30.105
It is all the things put together.

00:28:30.105 --> 00:28:32.430
Is that a fair assumption in terms
of what we're trying to align?

00:28:33.060 --> 00:28:38.685
Mylena: Yes, and it is also the kind
of thing that I push back on with

00:28:38.685 --> 00:28:43.005
respect to saying that there are times
in my life where work takes priority.

00:28:44.250 --> 00:28:44.470
Michael: Yep.

00:28:44.760 --> 00:28:47.280
Mylena: No, work doesn't take priority.

00:28:47.430 --> 00:28:50.250
If your family is first,
your family is always first.

00:28:50.580 --> 00:28:54.780
What you might find is that you might
have to have some conversations, you

00:28:54.780 --> 00:28:58.530
might have to have some adjustments, but
when you start choosing what your, what

00:28:58.530 --> 00:29:02.700
your North Star is, what your values
are, that is what makes them your values.

00:29:02.820 --> 00:29:05.370
It is nothing compromises these things.

00:29:05.580 --> 00:29:10.510
You might have to say to your partner,
I have a meeting coming up that I,

00:29:10.570 --> 00:29:14.620
it is gonna take me two weeks to
get ready for, and this is how it's

00:29:14.620 --> 00:29:16.510
going to affect our family life.

00:29:16.900 --> 00:29:19.290
But I'm going to make it up to you.

00:29:19.830 --> 00:29:25.810
Not just that you have to accept
this pivot, but making sure that

00:29:25.830 --> 00:29:27.390
you always keep it out front.

00:29:27.600 --> 00:29:31.320
It, it's kind of like just take
it on a very simplistic level.

00:29:31.320 --> 00:29:38.040
For me, my family reunion is anathema
to my diet, so when I'm there,

00:29:38.040 --> 00:29:41.610
I'm like, okay, so I can't do all
the things that the cousins do.

00:29:42.360 --> 00:29:45.810
So while they are up at,
you know, bottomless brunch,

00:29:46.080 --> 00:29:47.220
I, I need to hit the gym.

00:29:47.690 --> 00:29:49.130
I might hang out with you all.

00:29:49.130 --> 00:29:53.660
I may have had an extra serving of
whatever, but at the end of the day,

00:29:53.840 --> 00:29:56.150
I am not going to make that trade off.

00:29:56.180 --> 00:29:58.520
I recognize it's like a bank balance.

00:29:58.610 --> 00:30:03.740
When you make withdrawals, you've gotta
make deposits and constantly hold that

00:30:03.740 --> 00:30:10.580
tension and challenge yourself not to
allow yourself to make it something that's

00:30:10.580 --> 00:30:12.530
up and down according to circumstance.

00:30:12.680 --> 00:30:16.380
Because if it's up and down
according to circumstance, is

00:30:16.380 --> 00:30:17.910
it truly the thing you value?

00:30:19.170 --> 00:30:20.670
Michael: That's great, great point.

00:30:20.670 --> 00:30:23.640
It's hard to think about sometimes, right?

00:30:23.640 --> 00:30:28.410
Because of like, we, it's very
easy to look at the binary

00:30:28.410 --> 00:30:30.370
of like work, home, gotta do

00:30:30.420 --> 00:30:31.320
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:30:31.326 --> 00:30:31.336
Mm-hmm.

00:30:31.380 --> 00:30:31.740
Michael: both.

00:30:31.740 --> 00:30:34.260
You know, I'm gonna, I
prioritize my family.

00:30:34.260 --> 00:30:37.770
I wanna make sure I'm there for them,
but, you know, I've gotta earn a living.

00:30:37.770 --> 00:30:39.210
But it's more nuanced than that,

00:30:39.450 --> 00:30:39.900
Mylena: It is.

00:30:40.020 --> 00:30:40.440
Michael: right?

00:30:40.690 --> 00:30:44.310
Mylena: And think about it like this, too,
because you're clear that family matters

00:30:44.310 --> 00:30:51.150
to you most, think about this sense, if
you keep that front and center, it should

00:30:51.150 --> 00:30:54.900
affect how you think about how you go
about work because family matters to me.

00:30:54.900 --> 00:30:57.120
Now, my, this might be getting
into my personal politics.

00:30:57.330 --> 00:31:00.480
I don't trust most employers
to be completely loyal to

00:31:00.570 --> 00:31:01.770
your, to their employees.

00:31:01.830 --> 00:31:03.570
I just think that's the nature
of the world we live in.

00:31:03.900 --> 00:31:08.430
And if you value your family most, then
you also think about how do you manage

00:31:08.430 --> 00:31:11.940
your sense of finances with your family,
because you don't wanna put yourself

00:31:11.940 --> 00:31:16.140
in a position where everything that
you are able to provide to your family

00:31:16.350 --> 00:31:22.260
comes from your job or that you spend
to the max level of what you can afford.

00:31:22.730 --> 00:31:26.840
Because if family is really first,
then preserving that unit is part

00:31:26.840 --> 00:31:28.250
of that thought process, too.

00:31:28.430 --> 00:31:32.390
So when you're talking about alignment,
you're looking at how all of these

00:31:32.390 --> 00:31:36.680
pieces come together and looking
at again, how do we move in this

00:31:36.680 --> 00:31:40.760
particular direction in such a way
that we respect this value that we set.

00:31:41.470 --> 00:31:42.345
Michael: That's a great point.

00:31:43.335 --> 00:31:47.445
So I know we, you kind of touched on
this in the beginning by saying that,

00:31:48.135 --> 00:31:55.560
you know, you have to think about what
is important to you and be realistic

00:31:55.560 --> 00:31:57.390
with what you can and can't accomplish.

00:31:57.390 --> 00:32:00.990
But if someone feels like their
work and their life are pulling in

00:32:00.990 --> 00:32:05.070
completely different directions right
now, where do they even really begin?

00:32:05.070 --> 00:32:07.170
Like what is the actual
first steps they take?

00:32:07.890 --> 00:32:09.600
Mylena: You go ahead and scream, cry.

00:32:09.810 --> 00:32:14.790
Just live with the fact that that's a
very uncomfortable place to be in, where

00:32:14.790 --> 00:32:17.070
you feel like you're being pulled apart.

00:32:17.490 --> 00:32:17.730
Michael: Yeah.

00:32:18.010 --> 00:32:20.820
Mylena: I think you have to,
frankly, just be honest about

00:32:20.940 --> 00:32:23.560
that is the place where you're in.

00:32:23.565 --> 00:32:25.330
I, I would refer to it
as the sunken place.

00:32:25.330 --> 00:32:29.680
You, you're just there, but I actually
recognize that that is the place

00:32:29.680 --> 00:32:34.905
where you are, where work, life,
family life, the two are competing.

00:32:35.325 --> 00:32:38.895
I think you have to ask yourself
some critical questions just based

00:32:38.895 --> 00:32:40.875
on your overall set of circumstances.

00:32:41.055 --> 00:32:45.645
Is this a temporary situation or is this
something that is going to be enduring?

00:32:45.825 --> 00:32:49.335
It's like going into an organization
where, you know, you all have busy

00:32:49.335 --> 00:32:53.895
season once a year for six months, or
excuse me, for 60 days, but the rest

00:32:53.895 --> 00:32:55.305
of the time at your job is great.

00:32:55.785 --> 00:33:00.675
That's a different decision than 10
months out of 12 the year is crazy.

00:33:00.960 --> 00:33:01.050
And

00:33:01.485 --> 00:33:01.785
Michael: Right.

00:33:01.800 --> 00:33:05.580
Mylena: so what you've gotta think
about is, what am I really dealing with?

00:33:05.580 --> 00:33:09.450
Is this an acute situation
that's going to be over soon?

00:33:09.630 --> 00:33:12.810
And then I can fi-, figure
out a way to power through.

00:33:13.170 --> 00:33:18.790
But if I have a situation where it is
what it is, and my job is always going

00:33:18.805 --> 00:33:23.155
to pull me away from what's important
to me, whether it's my family, whether

00:33:23.155 --> 00:33:27.775
it's a hobby, a business that I wanna
build, then what I've gotta accept is

00:33:27.775 --> 00:33:33.565
that while I need revenue, I need income,
I've gotta start to plan for how, in

00:33:33.565 --> 00:33:39.865
fact, I am going to find other ways to
take care of my material needs because I

00:33:39.865 --> 00:33:46.015
know long term, if I stay with this job,
I'm gonna have to choose the job over me.

00:33:46.740 --> 00:33:53.340
Michael: Yeah, it, it's interesting
'cause what you say, you make it

00:33:53.340 --> 00:33:57.120
sound, you make it practical, right?

00:33:57.120 --> 00:34:00.510
It's, it's easy to follow, but the,
the first step is to, I mean, after

00:34:00.510 --> 00:34:04.020
you scream and, and cry and all
that, which I appreciate, that's

00:34:04.020 --> 00:34:07.740
probably the most honest answer,
right, we could possibly give.

00:34:08.580 --> 00:34:12.810
It's like the first thing you really need
to do is stop and take a moment to think,

00:34:12.960 --> 00:34:14.580
right, and to think through these things.

00:34:15.510 --> 00:34:18.600
But I think as dads, we often
rush through that process.

00:34:18.600 --> 00:34:23.970
We don't give ourselves, allow ourselves
the time to actually sit down and think

00:34:23.970 --> 00:34:26.310
about like what direction I'm going to go.

00:34:26.520 --> 00:34:28.770
But there are pockets of time
that we can find to do that.

00:34:28.770 --> 00:34:31.680
Even if we have super busy schedules,
we're working all day, and then we

00:34:31.680 --> 00:34:34.800
gotta drive our kids to one practice
and another kid to a recital, another

00:34:34.920 --> 00:34:37.710
kid to do this, and you have to get
dinner on the table and you have to

00:34:37.710 --> 00:34:39.120
do, you know, 58 different things.

00:34:40.095 --> 00:34:43.905
There are times, even if it's a couple
minutes here, a couple minutes there,

00:34:43.905 --> 00:34:47.925
maybe it's in the shower, maybe it's
while you're prepping dinner, maybe

00:34:47.925 --> 00:34:51.735
it's on the car ride home from work
if you, you know, you don't work from

00:34:51.735 --> 00:34:54.255
home, it's, there are times to do that.

00:34:54.255 --> 00:34:59.385
And I think it's helpful for us as
dads to remember that like, yes, we

00:34:59.385 --> 00:35:02.235
have these responsibilities at work,
we have these responsibilities at home.

00:35:03.270 --> 00:35:05.280
We know roughly what our priorities are.

00:35:05.400 --> 00:35:08.040
We have to also remember to take
time for ourselves to think through

00:35:08.040 --> 00:35:10.050
like what is important to us now.

00:35:10.070 --> 00:35:10.490
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:35:10.710 --> 00:35:12.180
Michael: Because we evolve
as people too, right?

00:35:12.180 --> 00:35:15.240
Like what we wanted in our twenties
is probably very different than

00:35:15.240 --> 00:35:16.200
what we want in our forties.

00:35:16.200 --> 00:35:18.150
It's probably very different
than what we want in our sixties

00:35:18.630 --> 00:35:20.160
and everywhere in between.

00:35:20.880 --> 00:35:27.750
And so we do have to stop and remember
to think, like, think for ourselves.

00:35:27.870 --> 00:35:30.030
What is it that, that we want?

00:35:30.390 --> 00:35:32.220
What is working, what's not working?

00:35:33.060 --> 00:35:37.150
And it's easy to avoid the things,
like avoid that conversation

00:35:37.200 --> 00:35:38.220
with ourselves, too, right?

00:35:38.220 --> 00:35:40.350
Like we talked about avoiding
conversations with others, but

00:35:40.350 --> 00:35:42.930
there's also the conversation with
ourselves, like what do we really want?

00:35:43.260 --> 00:35:47.070
What is like, as you said, our
North Star, and how do we stay true

00:35:47.070 --> 00:35:51.960
to that, you know, and not bend to
whatever the circumstances are now?

00:35:51.960 --> 00:35:55.620
And we have to find ways to make
the time for ourselves to think.

00:35:55.770 --> 00:35:59.220
It doesn't have to be like, I need to
block out a full weekend of, you know,

00:35:59.220 --> 00:36:03.900
alone time of, you know, I need to go book
a hotel room and be by myself and think

00:36:03.900 --> 00:36:05.370
through this and plan this all out, right?

00:36:05.370 --> 00:36:06.240
It doesn't have to be that.

00:36:06.510 --> 00:36:08.250
It could be five minutes
in the car, right?

00:36:08.250 --> 00:36:13.320
It can be just like, okay, I need to start
thinking about this and figure out like,

00:36:13.380 --> 00:36:14.670
is this working or is this not working?

00:36:14.670 --> 00:36:16.380
What adjustments do I need
to make like you said?

00:36:17.250 --> 00:36:22.185
Mylena: I think part of it, too, is also
recognizing that just because the people

00:36:22.185 --> 00:36:25.995
in your life have needs, it doesn't
mean that your needs don't matter.

00:36:26.145 --> 00:36:31.185
Even if those people are children,
you've gotta figure out within

00:36:31.185 --> 00:36:36.705
that, you know, how do you carve
out some part of you for you?

00:36:37.380 --> 00:36:42.990
You just, I love the kids, I love the
parents, I love all of these things,

00:36:43.170 --> 00:36:47.610
but you've gotta reserve, it's almost
like paying a tithe to yourself.

00:36:48.480 --> 00:36:50.130
You've gotta take some part of that.

00:36:50.130 --> 00:36:53.160
So, to your point, one of my favorite
authors, she said when she decided

00:36:53.160 --> 00:36:56.130
she wanted to write a particular
book, she said she looked at her

00:36:56.130 --> 00:36:59.550
life, and she decided there were only
two things that she needed to do.

00:36:59.730 --> 00:37:02.190
She needed to make sure her kids
were okay and she needed to write.

00:37:02.190 --> 00:37:06.110
She said she cut everything else off
her list that she didn't have to do.

00:37:06.290 --> 00:37:10.670
No more PTA meetings, no more
volunteer because this matters to me.

00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:14.720
She also said before that point,
she was working on writing her book

00:37:14.870 --> 00:37:16.340
when she was driving to New York.

00:37:16.340 --> 00:37:19.550
She said sometimes the traffic
going into the tunnel was forever.

00:37:19.700 --> 00:37:21.590
So, she was like, well, I got 10 minutes.

00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:29.565
You know, you gotta insist that you
have some space for yourself, whether

00:37:29.565 --> 00:37:32.835
that's getting up in the morning
and you have a cup of coffee and

00:37:32.835 --> 00:37:35.325
you pray before you start your day.

00:37:35.505 --> 00:37:39.315
Whether you take half of your lunch
hour and you make it clear to your

00:37:39.315 --> 00:37:42.765
coworkers, it is never okay to
ask me to go for a working lunch.

00:37:42.885 --> 00:37:44.865
I'm gonna go walk every single day.

00:37:45.195 --> 00:37:47.325
Even if that means you just
go hide in your car so you

00:37:47.325 --> 00:37:48.615
can just breathe a little bit.

00:37:48.645 --> 00:37:48.935
Michael: Yeah.

00:37:49.425 --> 00:37:55.695
Mylena: But you've gotta find a way to
insist on the parts of your life that

00:37:55.695 --> 00:38:00.675
give you some sense of control over
what's happening to you and that give

00:38:00.675 --> 00:38:06.225
you the opportunity to make sure that
you are getting from this life things

00:38:06.225 --> 00:38:09.585
that make your life whole, if you will.

00:38:09.945 --> 00:38:10.905
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:38:11.055 --> 00:38:12.900
I mean, you have to take care of
yourself in order to take care of

00:38:13.665 --> 00:38:13.760
Mylena: You do.

00:38:14.190 --> 00:38:15.870
Michael: others and what, what
else is important to you, right?

00:38:15.870 --> 00:38:17.910
So if you don't take care of yourself,
you're not gonna able to show up at work.

00:38:17.910 --> 00:38:20.190
You're not going to be able to show
up for your family, your friends,

00:38:20.220 --> 00:38:21.570
th-, those that matter to you.

00:38:22.650 --> 00:38:25.920
And I kinda wanna take this to you, the
next level you've told me about something

00:38:25.920 --> 00:38:30.345
that I just think it's such a great idea
that you've told me before about having

00:38:30.345 --> 00:38:33.765
some level of financial independence
so you're not stuck taking whatever

00:38:33.765 --> 00:38:36.975
comes your way to work and you call
it, and I love this, a go-to-hell fund,

00:38:37.140 --> 00:38:37.530
Mylena: Yes.

00:38:39.145 --> 00:38:41.205
Michael: right, which is so great because
it's straight to the point, right?

00:38:41.805 --> 00:38:46.185
And how does having that kind of
optionality change the way someone

00:38:46.185 --> 00:38:48.195
shows up at work and at home?

00:38:48.810 --> 00:38:51.480
Mylena: I think it's the equivalent
of what we say about old people.

00:38:51.660 --> 00:38:53.280
You know, I say old people have no filter.

00:38:53.780 --> 00:38:53.790
Michael: Yeah.

00:38:54.450 --> 00:38:57.450
Mylena: I'm not, I'm not suggesting
that you're that mad, but you get close.

00:38:57.690 --> 00:39:01.980
It's even something as a small business
owner that I notice with myself, part

00:39:01.980 --> 00:39:06.135
of the work that I do with my clients,
I kid you not, some of the things

00:39:06.135 --> 00:39:10.365
that I can say to my clients are things
that the people who work there every

00:39:10.365 --> 00:39:14.535
single day wouldn't dare say, but
you know why I can say those things,

00:39:14.595 --> 00:39:19.875
because even if this client does not
like what I said, I have other clients.

00:39:19.935 --> 00:39:22.635
All of my resource doesn't
come from this one person

00:39:22.815 --> 00:39:23.115
Michael: Right.

00:39:23.165 --> 00:39:24.125
Mylena: or this one organization.

00:39:24.295 --> 00:39:28.815
And the same thing is true when you have
some resources, your own go-to-hell fund.

00:39:28.965 --> 00:39:32.355
It's not like you're looking to
play it like an UNO card and be

00:39:32.355 --> 00:39:39.045
out, but ultimately it allows you to
not have a situation where what you

00:39:39.045 --> 00:39:41.775
truly value is always up for sale.

00:39:42.390 --> 00:39:42.720
Michael: Right.

00:39:42.915 --> 00:39:43.185
Mylena: It

00:39:43.200 --> 00:39:43.320
Michael: That's a great

00:39:43.320 --> 00:39:43.395
Mylena: point.

00:39:43.395 --> 00:39:46.935
gives you just that confidence
and that ability to say no.

00:39:46.995 --> 00:39:50.085
I, I'm gonna go to my grandpa's funeral.

00:39:50.205 --> 00:39:53.325
I understand that you're saying
you're not authorizing time off.

00:39:53.775 --> 00:39:55.065
Grandpa, I'm going.

00:39:55.455 --> 00:39:55.755
Michael: Yeah.

00:39:56.025 --> 00:40:01.155
Mylena: My kid, I really actually do
wanna participate in blah, blah, blah.

00:40:01.395 --> 00:40:06.375
And most of the time I'm here, but I
told you weeks ago, this was important.

00:40:06.855 --> 00:40:07.425
I'm gonna go.

00:40:08.055 --> 00:40:08.895
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:09.045 --> 00:40:12.165
Yeah, I kind of think of it as like
an investment portfolio, right?

00:40:12.165 --> 00:40:13.785
They say diversify your investments.

00:40:13.965 --> 00:40:15.705
Don't put everything in one place, right?

00:40:15.705 --> 00:40:18.105
Like, just like you're diversifying the
number of customers that you have, or

00:40:18.105 --> 00:40:22.200
clients that you have so that you can
be more forthright with them and not be

00:40:22.200 --> 00:40:26.040
afraid that you lose one of them, having
that optionality, of having that financial

00:40:26.040 --> 00:40:33.180
independence, allows you to kind of pick
and choose the direction that you want

00:40:33.180 --> 00:40:39.120
to go, right, or be prepared to make
a change at a time that works for you.

00:40:39.555 --> 00:40:45.720
Mylena: Yes, it takes away that, that
fear that looms like a cloud when you

00:40:45.720 --> 00:40:49.590
think of, you know, this person is
my boss and they control my paycheck.

00:40:50.640 --> 00:40:55.260
When you have, even if it's just a
couple of months worth of cushion, that

00:40:55.320 --> 00:41:00.360
in and of itself does something for you
that when your margin is so thin, it

00:41:00.360 --> 00:41:02.400
changes the algebra every single time.

00:41:02.910 --> 00:41:04.230
Michael: Yeah, that's a great point.

00:41:04.740 --> 00:41:09.810
So I, another question for you kind
of off that topic is for dads who

00:41:09.810 --> 00:41:12.630
feel like they're doing everything
kind of out of duty right now.

00:41:12.630 --> 00:41:13.890
Like they just, they have to do it.

00:41:13.890 --> 00:41:16.515
They have to earn a living, they
have to go to the baseball game,

00:41:16.515 --> 00:41:17.625
they have to do whatever it may be.

00:41:17.835 --> 00:41:21.825
How do they shift toward being
more present and engaged without

00:41:21.825 --> 00:41:23.625
pretending like everything is fine?

00:41:25.275 --> 00:41:26.175
Mylena: That's a good question.

00:41:26.795 --> 00:41:27.595
That is tough.

00:41:28.135 --> 00:41:32.445
I, what happens often when you're
working from a place of duty and

00:41:32.445 --> 00:41:36.285
obligation, I think it goes back to
something you said earlier, taking the

00:41:36.285 --> 00:41:41.085
time to ask yourself, why do you feel
as if these are the kids you made.

00:41:41.490 --> 00:41:41.780
Michael: Yeah.

00:41:42.105 --> 00:41:44.265
Mylena: This is the
life you signed up for.

00:41:44.355 --> 00:41:44.685
Michael: Right.

00:41:44.790 --> 00:41:49.350
Mylena: Why is it something that
suddenly, or maybe it's not suddenly,

00:41:49.350 --> 00:41:50.910
'cause sometimes it's not suddenly,

00:41:51.120 --> 00:41:51.960
Michael: Yep, for sure.

00:41:52.045 --> 00:41:53.790
Mylena: what is it about it
that makes this so heavy?

00:41:54.120 --> 00:41:59.580
I think it starts with being willing to
be honest with yourself about what it is

00:41:59.760 --> 00:42:02.370
that is making it difficult to carry that.

00:42:03.000 --> 00:42:03.150
Michael: Yep.

00:42:03.180 --> 00:42:06.280
Mylena: And once you are in a place
where you can be honest about that,

00:42:06.840 --> 00:42:10.470
it's only until that point where you
can start to come up with solutions and

00:42:10.470 --> 00:42:12.590
strategies that aren't guilt oriented.

00:42:13.120 --> 00:42:16.525
I think when used to deal with people
from a place of duty and obligation,

00:42:16.645 --> 00:42:20.815
sometimes you might even over anticipate
what they need or require simply because

00:42:20.995 --> 00:42:25.615
you aren't able to clearly determine
if they need something or if your

00:42:25.615 --> 00:42:30.175
hesitation to not do everything for them
comes from your place of resentment.

00:42:30.355 --> 00:42:33.115
So with respect to that, being
willing to be honest about where

00:42:33.115 --> 00:42:35.215
it comes from is the first thing.

00:42:35.215 --> 00:42:40.830
And then as you are thinking about
where it comes from, thinking about

00:42:40.830 --> 00:42:45.270
who's in your life that you can
trust to share that with, because the

00:42:45.270 --> 00:42:47.640
other part of it is managing shame.

00:42:48.410 --> 00:42:48.630
Michael: Yep.

00:42:48.930 --> 00:42:53.640
Mylena: Once you can do those two things,
then you can talk about a solution,

00:42:53.760 --> 00:42:57.900
but as long as you feel like you are a
terrible parent or a terrible husband

00:42:57.900 --> 00:43:03.555
or a terrible, you fill in the blank, as
long as you feel that way and you feel as

00:43:03.555 --> 00:43:07.755
if you have to carry it in silence, you
won't get to solutions that are healthy

00:43:07.905 --> 00:43:09.675
because you feel bad about who you are.

00:43:10.890 --> 00:43:12.150
Michael: That's such an important point.

00:43:12.150 --> 00:43:15.270
I think it's something that
we, again, avoid talking about,

00:43:15.270 --> 00:43:21.960
right, is shame of there's some
societal expectations, I think.

00:43:22.020 --> 00:43:25.995
You know, dads that, you know,
they should be confident and

00:43:26.475 --> 00:43:28.815
they shouldn't feel the shame.

00:43:28.935 --> 00:43:33.465
And so it's very difficult for us,
oftentimes, maybe not for everybody, but

00:43:33.465 --> 00:43:39.885
it is difficult to address shame and to
admit that we have this sense of shame

00:43:39.885 --> 00:43:45.375
for maybe not everything works out exactly
the way you want to, but again, if we

00:43:45.375 --> 00:43:49.725
put it in perspective, we take time to
think about it, everybody has challenges.

00:43:49.725 --> 00:43:53.865
No life is, goes exactly according
to to plan in all perfection.

00:43:53.865 --> 00:44:01.125
It's, life ebbs and flows, and it's
okay when things don't go your way.

00:44:01.125 --> 00:44:06.135
Like, you, for the most part, you
know, unless there's some terrible

00:44:06.135 --> 00:44:12.525
health diagnosis or, you know, some
other life altering thing occurs, we

00:44:12.525 --> 00:44:13.875
tend to be able to move on, right?

00:44:14.280 --> 00:44:14.700
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:44:15.525 --> 00:44:17.115
Michael: But we just don't
talk about shame very much.

00:44:17.205 --> 00:44:18.705
And it's, it's hard to talk about,

00:44:18.710 --> 00:44:19.130
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:44:19.210 --> 00:44:19.610
Mm-hmm.

00:44:20.275 --> 00:44:20.905
Michael: but it's important.

00:44:21.395 --> 00:44:25.455
And, you know, you just outline
exactly why we need to think

00:44:25.455 --> 00:44:26.415
about it and address it.

00:44:26.415 --> 00:44:29.625
And, you know, I don't
know what the answer is.

00:44:29.625 --> 00:44:33.045
Like, I don't know, how do we start
talking about shame more freely and

00:44:33.165 --> 00:44:35.055
how do we admit that to ourselves?

00:44:35.385 --> 00:44:35.625
Right?

00:44:35.685 --> 00:44:38.445
That's hard, hard to do, but it's
something we have to start thinking about,

00:44:38.565 --> 00:44:38.985
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:44:39.265 --> 00:44:41.055
Michael: right, amongst the many
things that, that we can 'cause

00:44:41.055 --> 00:44:44.505
if we can overcome that feeling
of shame, we can realize what we

00:44:44.505 --> 00:44:46.455
are capable of, I think, right?

00:44:46.710 --> 00:44:50.760
Mylena: I think that goes back to,
again, to this idea where men aren't

00:44:50.760 --> 00:44:56.010
encouraged to ex-, to, to even embrace,
let alone explore the fact that there

00:44:56.010 --> 00:44:58.710
is this emotional side to themselves,

00:44:59.175 --> 00:44:59.355
Michael: Yep.

00:44:59.400 --> 00:45:04.410
Mylena: but looking for, do you have
that one friend that you can talk to?

00:45:05.430 --> 00:45:10.410
Or even if it's not a, go anonymously
on Reddit, I don't know, but

00:45:10.800 --> 00:45:14.250
find a way to give voice to that.

00:45:14.400 --> 00:45:19.800
I, there's something so cleansing
about saying the quiet part out loud,

00:45:20.130 --> 00:45:20.350
Michael: Yes.

00:45:20.490 --> 00:45:22.050
Mylena: The thing that haunts you.

00:45:22.920 --> 00:45:26.150
I was actually in a group the other
day and this lady talked about

00:45:26.330 --> 00:45:31.485
how she was frankly just accepting
that she was gonna file bankruptcy.

00:45:31.635 --> 00:45:33.885
She said she was tired
of hiding from herself.

00:45:34.275 --> 00:45:35.085
She was like, you know what?

00:45:35.085 --> 00:45:36.405
I'm doing the very best I can.

00:45:36.525 --> 00:45:38.535
I cannot help that I've lost my job.

00:45:38.625 --> 00:45:41.145
I've been trying to get a
job for the last 18 months.

00:45:41.295 --> 00:45:46.755
I don't know what the problem is, but I am
going to stop feeling as if I am a failure

00:45:46.815 --> 00:45:49.425
simply because I am broke right now.

00:45:50.265 --> 00:45:56.115
And you've gotta find spaces where you
can actually own that part of who you are.

00:45:56.115 --> 00:46:00.555
Because what happens then you stop
worrying about somebody to pull the mask

00:46:00.555 --> 00:46:02.265
off your face in front of the crowd.

00:46:02.445 --> 00:46:05.775
It's like, yeah, so think about
the, let's stick with the bankruptcy

00:46:05.775 --> 00:46:08.355
lady for a second, because you
do know that's a public record.

00:46:08.535 --> 00:46:09.225
You know what I mean?

00:46:09.285 --> 00:46:10.185
So guess what?

00:46:10.335 --> 00:46:13.755
Now that you've owned that on
her next job interview, perhaps

00:46:13.755 --> 00:46:15.205
she has to do a background check.

00:46:15.395 --> 00:46:16.415
You've already owned it.

00:46:16.415 --> 00:46:19.685
So now it puts you in a place where
if you know that's gonna come up,

00:46:19.745 --> 00:46:21.605
hey, I just wanna give you a heads up.

00:46:22.415 --> 00:46:26.705
When you search, you're gonna find this
because waiting on pins and needles,

00:46:26.825 --> 00:46:30.245
like it's not gonna come up, all it's
gonna do is give you bad anxiety.

00:46:30.395 --> 00:46:31.595
Just own that.

00:46:31.595 --> 00:46:35.105
And I think what happens with
respect to shame, you've gotta

00:46:35.105 --> 00:46:37.055
find pressure release valves.

00:46:37.115 --> 00:46:37.385
You've

00:46:37.490 --> 00:46:37.710
Michael: Yep.

00:46:37.765 --> 00:46:38.205
Mylena: got to find them.

00:46:38.925 --> 00:46:39.495
Michael: Absolutely.

00:46:39.795 --> 00:46:42.705
And again, it all comes back to
being honest with yourself, right?

00:46:43.125 --> 00:46:46.635
Like we've been talking about this
entire time of we gotta have radical

00:46:46.635 --> 00:46:52.905
honesty with ourselves because otherwise
we're going to expend our energy

00:46:53.025 --> 00:46:53.445
Mylena: Mm-hmm.

00:46:53.685 --> 00:46:56.775
Michael: On just trying to maintain, just
trying to manage the anxiety or the things

00:46:56.775 --> 00:47:00.000
that are holding us back instead of trying
to move forward, getting closer to that

00:47:00.000 --> 00:47:01.530
North Star that we've set for ourselves.

00:47:02.370 --> 00:47:03.330
So, so important.

00:47:03.330 --> 00:47:07.260
So, we're gonna go from the
important and heavy stuff to

00:47:07.530 --> 00:47:10.080
the not so important life stuff.

00:47:10.080 --> 00:47:11.520
And I want to jump into our speed round.

00:47:11.520 --> 00:47:13.560
Five quick questions, have
nothing to do with anything.

00:47:13.830 --> 00:47:14.250
Mylena: Okay.

00:47:14.610 --> 00:47:16.950
Michael: And the first one, if you're
ready, is what's the first kids

00:47:16.950 --> 00:47:18.510
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:47:19.350 --> 00:47:20.130
Mylena: Pink Panther.

00:47:20.460 --> 00:47:21.090
Michael: Pink Panther.

00:47:21.090 --> 00:47:21.540
Love it.

00:47:22.080 --> 00:47:22.350
Love it.

00:47:23.400 --> 00:47:24.390
All time classic.

00:47:24.660 --> 00:47:25.800
What was your very first job?

00:47:26.605 --> 00:47:30.840
Mylena: I worked for the Federal Aviation
Administration as an office clerk.

00:47:31.290 --> 00:47:31.950
Michael: Oh wow.

00:47:32.880 --> 00:47:33.540
Very cool.

00:47:33.990 --> 00:47:36.130
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:47:36.180 --> 00:47:37.910
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:47:39.340 --> 00:47:40.930
Mylena: A T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:47:41.880 --> 00:47:42.480
Michael: Why is that?

00:47:43.275 --> 00:47:46.365
Mylena: Even though kids
scare me, they can't eat me.

00:47:50.640 --> 00:47:52.410
Michael: That is a very fair answer.

00:47:54.360 --> 00:47:56.490
Sometimes you just gotta go into
survival mode, and that is…

00:47:59.130 --> 00:48:01.830
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:48:02.310 --> 00:48:03.690
Mylena: Oh, I ruined it.

00:48:03.690 --> 00:48:04.650
I was in Jamaica.

00:48:04.650 --> 00:48:09.750
I did Rock Steady, Baby
by Ali-, Aretha Franklin.

00:48:10.140 --> 00:48:10.650
Michael: Oh, wow.

00:48:10.860 --> 00:48:15.090
Mylena: That song is hard
to sing, but I survived.

00:48:15.240 --> 00:48:17.770
I survived with shame, but I survived.

00:48:19.335 --> 00:48:20.325
Michael: You chose a legend, though.

00:48:20.355 --> 00:48:21.075
You chose a legend.

00:48:22.155 --> 00:48:24.585
What's, and finally, what's the weirdest
thing you've ever carried around

00:48:24.585 --> 00:48:26.325
in your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:48:27.970 --> 00:48:31.920
Mylena: In almost every purse,
there is a dry erase marker

00:48:32.485 --> 00:48:32.495
Michael: Hmm…

00:48:33.110 --> 00:48:33.240
Mylena: almost everywhere.

00:48:33.380 --> 00:48:35.160
I think that's the facilitator in me.

00:48:35.400 --> 00:48:39.180
I always have a dry erase marker,
and depending on where I may have

00:48:39.180 --> 00:48:42.570
come from before a particular
meeting, you can always expect me

00:48:42.570 --> 00:48:43.980
to have a clicker in my pocket, too.

00:48:45.750 --> 00:48:47.220
I always have those two things, always.

00:48:48.195 --> 00:48:49.185
Michael: It makes a lot of sense.

00:48:49.185 --> 00:48:49.815
It's very interesting.

00:48:50.115 --> 00:48:50.715
Mylena: Indeed.

00:48:50.715 --> 00:48:51.105
Indeed.

00:48:52.215 --> 00:48:52.805
Michael: Well, that was fun, Mylena.

00:48:53.175 --> 00:48:56.085
Before we wrap up, I wanna make sure
people know where to find you and

00:48:56.115 --> 00:48:57.255
how to go deeper into your work.

00:48:57.645 --> 00:48:59.925
Where should people go if they wanna learn
more about your work, connect with you,

00:48:59.925 --> 00:49:01.185
or follow along with what you're building?

00:49:01.515 --> 00:49:01.815
Mylena: Okay.

00:49:02.295 --> 00:49:04.345
My website is mylenasutton.com.

00:49:04.725 --> 00:49:09.285
There is a page that I've set aside
to give people an opportunity see

00:49:09.285 --> 00:49:11.625
the various things that I offer
and to kind of check me out a bit.

00:49:11.775 --> 00:49:12.755
It's mylenasutton.com/invitations.

00:49:15.075 --> 00:49:17.550
So, have a good time on the site.

00:49:17.550 --> 00:49:18.900
Check out the invitations.

00:49:18.990 --> 00:49:20.730
Feel free to use the contact page.

00:49:20.880 --> 00:49:25.260
And if you wanna connect on
Instagram or LinkedIn, I'm listed

00:49:25.260 --> 00:49:26.430
under my name, so feel free.

00:49:27.285 --> 00:49:27.675
Michael: Awesome.

00:49:27.675 --> 00:49:28.935
Well, we'll put all those
links in the show notes.

00:49:28.935 --> 00:49:29.685
I appreciate that.

00:49:30.165 --> 00:49:33.345
Mylena, I really appreciate you
having this conversation with me.

00:49:33.645 --> 00:49:37.180
You have a way of saying things
clearly that a lot of people feel,

00:49:37.200 --> 00:49:40.440
but we don't always put into words
or don't know how to put into words.

00:49:40.920 --> 00:49:45.000
You know, there's a lot here that's kinda
gonna challenge people, if I'm being

00:49:45.000 --> 00:49:48.670
honest, right, of what you said, but in a
way that actually helps them move forward,

00:49:49.460 --> 00:49:51.840
right, and stop holding themselves back.

00:49:52.170 --> 00:49:54.450
So, I appreciate you
chatting with me today.

00:49:54.870 --> 00:49:56.370
Thanks for coming out and sharing this.

00:49:56.940 --> 00:49:57.630
I really appreciate it.

00:49:57.630 --> 00:50:00.510
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:50:00.510 --> 00:50:03.390
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

00:50:03.780 --> 00:50:06.720
head to gaptogig.com, subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:50:06.870 --> 00:50:10.260
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:50:10.260 --> 00:50:11.520
and what really matters right now.

00:50:11.910 --> 00:50:14.340
And if this conversation resonated,
please consider sending it to another

00:50:14.340 --> 00:50:15.240
dad who might need to hear it.

00:50:15.630 --> 00:50:17.190
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:50:17.370 --> 00:50:19.230
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.