Jason VanDevere on Building Generational Habits Through Fatherhood and Entrepreneurship

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Jason: One of the things I've been trying
to build into our family is everyone gets

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so focused on generational wealth, right?

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And generational wealth, look,
that's, that's a great thing,

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but what you're really aiming for
is generational habits, right?

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What are the habits I'm gonna pass down?

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs, and
my guest today is Jason VanDevere.

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Jason walked away from a path
that most people would have

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taken without thinking twice.

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He had the opportunity to step into
his family's successful auto dealership

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business, but instead chose to build
something on his own from the ground up.

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Since then, he's built a million-dollar
product business around a planner he

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created, grown a real estate portfolio,
and became a dad of soon-to-be four kids.

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But what stood out to me isn't just
what he's built, it's how he talks about

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fatherhood shaping the way he works
and the way he thinks about success.

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Jason, I'm really glad you're here.

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Welcome to Gap to Gig.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Jason: Yeah.

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Thanks for having me.

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I'm looking forward to this today.

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Michael: Likewise, likewise.

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So I want to start back at that
decision point because I think a

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lot of dads listening have felt some
version of that tension, even if

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it looked different on the surface.

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: Can you take me back to
that moment you decided to walk

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away from your family's business?

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What was going through
your head at the time?

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Jason: There was a lot
going through my head.

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So to give your audience here the, the,
the background context for this, my

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dad's a car dealer here in Akron, Ohio.

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So if you ever come to Akron, Ohio, you'll
see our last name all over VanDevere

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Kia, VanDevere Cadillac, VanDevere Chevy.

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They've got five dealerships.

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So I was, basically, in line to inherit
this portfolio of dealerships, and I was

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working there, learning the business,
and I didn't enjoy it, which sounds

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like such a small thing, but I felt so
frustrated showing up to work every day.

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I, I was good at it.

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It aligns naturally with my skillset, but
every day it was, I was just trying to

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reconvince myself on why I was doing it.

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And it's like, if my family didn't
have that business, I never would've

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chosen to work there, or I would've just
left 'cause I, I wasn't enjoying it.

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And I think what made that so clear
to me when I was working there was

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seeing how much my own dad enjoyed it.

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So, he loves the car business, and he's,
he's built an incredible dealership

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with values and really great team.

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I'm not trying to be negative
on his dealership at all

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because I, I didn't enjoy it.

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If you show up at one of the dealerships
and you see him there, you'll just

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be able to tell he loves it, right?

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Like, you'll hear him if he's at that
store because he's loud, he's excited.

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And growing up and working
there, I always looked at that

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and knew that's what I want.

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I want a business that lights
a fire inside of me, that's

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an extension of myself where I
can be creative and have fun.

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And as I was working there, it
just became very clear that it

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wasn't gonna be that place for me.

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But, but going back to your question
of what was going through my

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head, I had a lot of fears, right?

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People would think I was crazy
to turn down the opportunity.

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What if I failed?

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It would be embarrassing to come back
if I left and, and then came back.

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So, there was a lot going
through my head at that time.

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Michael: I bet.

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Was that like, you said there
was a noticeable, like, passion

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about your dad, right, that you
didn't feel that same thing.

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Do you think that was just a lack of
interest in the car business itself,

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or was it more to it like that you
didn't, it wasn't your choice, like,

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or is it something else altogether?

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Jason: Yeah, I, probably, it, I did
choose to go there after college where

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it wasn't like I was, I was forced to.

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It was kind of assumed, but I, by
no means was I forced to do it.

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Yeah, I didn't, and it was
hard for, what probably made it

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hard was that I was good at it.

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Me and my dad are very similar personality
types, I would say similar skill sets.

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Probably some of my best skills, that
I'm the most proud of, all came from

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him, and watching him work, so, it was
hard for me, like, why aren't I enjoying

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it like he is?

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And even when I was having
the conversation with him to

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leave, I think probably he was
there thinking the same thing.

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Like, why aren't you
enjoying this like I do?

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It's such a fun place to work.

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I think the family business,
there are some strings in it.

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So my dad and my uncle are owners
in this business, and I don't

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know.

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May, if it, I don't know.

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It, it's hard to, hard to say
would I have enjoyed it if

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the background was different?

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Like, if it wasn't my dad's business,
and I was working there and just trying

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to work up the corporate ladder, maybe
I would've had a different attitude.

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It, but it wasn't there when I was there.

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Michael: Sure.

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No, that's fair.

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So obviously there's a lot of
emotion around that of like, well,

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do I stay working with my dad, my
uncle, do-- or do I do my own thing?

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Like, I'm sure there's a lot going
through your head, but... And I also

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imagine part of that was the risk, right?

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It must have felt risky to go
from something was probably fairly

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solid at the time for you, right?

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You had a steady job.

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You were

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working at somewhere.

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I mean, you had an income, like you
didn't have to worry about job security

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necessarily in that moment, and you
were stepping out into the, I would

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imagine pretty much the unknown, right?

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Like, so there was a risk there, not
just financially, but I imagine also

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emotionally for you and, or mentally
for you of like, what happens next?

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Like, what is next?

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How did that-- what did that feel
like, you know, both, you know,

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as you were in that moment and
thinking about like how you want

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to build your family going forward,
like as a, a dad, a potential dad?

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Jason: Yeah, I think the idea of leaving,
there was a risk of what if I fail?

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But it seemed so freeing because I
was on a very, I was on a path to

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become a car dealer, which is great.

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And then it would probably take me about
10 years to learn all of the departments

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and work my way till ownership.

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But I didn't have
control when I was there.

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I, you know, I could be working in a
department, putting in everything I

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had to learn it, and tomorrow my dad
would say, hey, somebody, somebody left.

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You're gonna switch and now you're
gonna go work in this department.

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You're gonna go manage this, and that
level of control, I didn't like how

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somebody else could control my schedule
that much, and it was a long road of that.

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And I feel like, for me, growing
the life I wanted for my family,

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the car dealership would offer that
freedom, and it would take 10 years.

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And, which in the scheme of your
career, is very short, but it was,

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I just wanted to start building
something now at that time now.

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And that would provide
me that freedom sooner.

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It's, I still work a lot of
hours now that I do have kids,

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but I do have the flexibility.

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If I wanna stop, I can.

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I can choose my own hours.

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I don't have to ask for
somebody else's permission.

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I'm building an asset similar to the
dealership that I can pass down to my

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kids, but I think I wanted to prove to
myself, but more importantly to other

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people, whether it was my own kids or
other people in my group that you can

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become successful in whatever you want.

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Like other people looked at me and always
would tell me like, oh, well Jason,

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you're bound to be successful, right?

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Because your dad's a car dealer and
that, that's great, but I want 'em

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to realize, look, what makes you
successful isn't that you just got

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lucky and had a car dealer as your dad.

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It's that you had the courage
to go out and pursue something.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Jason: And, I wanted to
prove that to myself.

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I wanted to be able to prove that
to my future family, to others.

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Hey, if you've got a dream and
you're willing to put in the work

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to make it happen, you can do it.

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I had the golden ticket,
and I walked away from it.

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Michael: Right.

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Jason: Now, we're at the same place.

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Yeah.

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Michael: Right.

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Yeah, I think that's like, to
me, I'm an entrepreneur myself.

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I've had my own business for
20 something years now, and

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: yes, it gives me
a sense of control, right?

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Like, I choose the direction the
business goes in, but I have to put in

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the effort to make it work, right?

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Like, I have to, like you said, you
can't, or you can choose your own

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hours, but you can't necessarily
neglect the business either, right?

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Like, you have to... it's a commitment,
whether, you know, you work for

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somebody else or work for yourself.

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But at the end of the day, the difference
here is that you are the end of the line.

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Jason: Yeah.

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Michael: Right, but being the end of
the line, yes, it comes with a lot

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of responsibility, but it also comes
with a lot of other potential benefits

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if it's the right fit for you, right?

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Like, it does allow you that flexibility.

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It does allow you some creative control.

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You know, not just in your schedule,
but in like how the business is

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run, how the business is designed,
how you market the business, right?

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Because you are the end of the line, you
get to make some of those decisions or

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have the last call on those decisions.

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And you can bring in other people to
help you with that, of course, right?

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Jason: Yeah.

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Michael: But there is this sense of
like accomplishment that you can go

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after that's a little bit different than
if you're working for somebody else.

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And entrepreneurship is not for everybody.

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I've seen it, right?

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Like, there are people who are just like,
"Oh yeah, I'm gonna start my own business.

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It'll be so easy.

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Like, I can just go do these things."
It's like, but then they get into it

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and they're like, "Oh, this is terrible.

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Like, I don't want that responsibility.

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I don't want, I don't want to be thinking
about this at 2:00 in the morning, or

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when I'm with my family on vacation, I
don't want to be thinking about this call

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I need to make for, for work," right?

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"Or this email I need to respond to while,
you know, I'm doing whatever. Like, I'm

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riding elephants in India, but I need
to respond to an email right now." You

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know, that's not for everybody, right?

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: But on the flip side of
that, again, it can be very rewarding.

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It can feel, give you this sense
of purpose if you find the right

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business for yourself, which it sounds
like you have done the same, right?

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And it also then allows you to
demonstrate for your kids what's possible,

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: right?

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And like you said, that your
kids have actually made you

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a better entrepreneur, and

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Jason: Oh yeah.

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Michael: That's not how I think a lot
of people tend to frame it, right?

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Jason: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: I don't think a lot of
entrepreneurs would be like, "Oh yeah,

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my kids make me a better entrepreneur."

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Yeah, maybe they motivate you to, to work
harder, but I, I'm curious, like, what

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changed for you after becoming a dad?

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Jason: Yeah, so, when I started my
business, I didn't have kids, right?

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So my life basically became working
on my business, which at a time, maybe

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that's what I needed to do to get it
going, but I was working all the time.

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Then when I did met my wife, that
wasn't an option as we're dating, but

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when we had kids specifically, it's
like I needed to have boundaries of,

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here are my office hours, here's,
here's how much money we need.

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My wife quit her job right away
when we had our first child.

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And it's like, okay, I have
to earn X amount of dollars.

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And now we have a schedule of here's how
many hours I'm allowed to work each day.

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And that constraint has forced
me to get more productive, to be

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better with my time because when
I was single, I had the luxury.

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I could work around the clock.

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I could say up till 3:00AM
working on maybe their high payoff

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activities, maybe they're not.

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I could try 20 different things and
give up on 19 of 'em and whatever, but

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now it's like I don't have that luxury.

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Now it's, I only have this many hours.

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I have to be productive with them.

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I have to make a decision.

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This is what I'm gonna do.

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I have to execute it.

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And, I think, I think for me, that
has made me so much more successful

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and before kind of another level to
this, before I had kids, all of my

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work, all of my drive was coming from
a very selfish place of an ego, right?

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I wanted to prove I could.

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I wanted to, to show my worth.

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And when you have a wife and kids
that you need to support, all

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of a sudden there's an actual
purpose behind all of your goals.

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I'm not doing this for me just to show
how great I am, because the need to prove

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yourself, maybe it'll drive you into
action, but it did not lead me, lead

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me to the, the most sufficient action.

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It was for wife and kids,
it's, I have to do this.

00:12:10.531 --> 00:12:15.331
This is a driving force that's much
greater to allow me to, to push myself to

00:12:15.721 --> 00:12:18.001
do activities that push my comfort zone.

00:12:18.896 --> 00:12:24.996
Michael: Yeah, I, I-- You put that
so well of this purpose, right?

00:12:25.616 --> 00:12:30.416
As dads, you know, we feel we have this
purpose when our kids come into the world.

00:12:30.856 --> 00:12:33.836
We feel we have this purpose
when we find that right partner,

00:12:34.186 --> 00:12:36.066
that right spouse, right?

00:12:36.286 --> 00:12:39.306
But it's... There is definitely a shift.

00:12:39.966 --> 00:12:40.656
I was the same way.

00:12:40.656 --> 00:12:43.476
Like, when I first started my business,
I was working around the clock because

00:12:43.996 --> 00:12:45.376
what else did I have to do, right?

00:12:45.376 --> 00:12:47.506
And to me it was like, this is it.

00:12:47.506 --> 00:12:49.386
That is my, my business
is my responsibility.

00:12:50.351 --> 00:12:50.641
Jason: Yeah.

00:12:51.096 --> 00:12:53.506
Michael: But it becomes a lot more
personal when you build a family, like

00:12:54.201 --> 00:12:54.491
Jason: Yeah.

00:12:54.536 --> 00:12:55.066
Michael: you said, right?

00:12:55.066 --> 00:13:00.136
Like, now you have to choose how
are you going to spend your time.

00:13:00.136 --> 00:13:02.436
Like, the calculus totally changes, right?

00:13:02.436 --> 00:13:05.476
Because now you need to be there
to support your spouse as you're

00:13:05.476 --> 00:13:08.046
raising your kid, if you're fortunate
enough to have, have a spouse while

00:13:08.046 --> 00:13:08.946
you're raising your kids, right?

00:13:09.236 --> 00:13:12.376
Or if you're on your own, it's like,
okay, now when I... It's my parenting

00:13:12.376 --> 00:13:15.516
time, I need to be there for my kids.

00:13:15.516 --> 00:13:18.036
I need to show up for them, but I
also need to earn a living, too.

00:13:18.316 --> 00:13:20.406
And it's, this balance is
totally different, right?

00:13:20.406 --> 00:13:26.936
And the purpose, the drive is...
What drives you to do what, the, make

00:13:26.936 --> 00:13:28.736
the decisions that you make changes.

00:13:28.966 --> 00:13:31.946
It's really hard to explain, but I
think you put it very clearly of, like,

00:13:32.031 --> 00:13:32.321
Jason: Yeah.

00:13:32.486 --> 00:13:37.186
Michael: it goes from perhaps ambition
or maybe the ambition changes.

00:13:37.186 --> 00:13:40.736
So it goes from like, I can do
this for me, it's more egocentric,

00:13:40.736 --> 00:13:43.436
to I have this new purpose.

00:13:43.506 --> 00:13:46.306
I have this... It's more personal, right?

00:13:46.306 --> 00:13:46.726
I've got these

00:13:46.791 --> 00:13:46.981
Jason: Oh yeah.

00:13:46.991 --> 00:13:53.616
Michael: People that I am trying
to support and provide, and they

00:13:53.616 --> 00:13:56.736
are also doing the same for me,
right, maybe in different ways.

00:13:56.736 --> 00:14:01.366
Like, if your wife is a stay-at-home mom,
she might be-- she's supporting the family

00:14:01.856 --> 00:14:03.826
just as much, if not more than you as a

00:14:03.881 --> 00:14:04.246
Jason: Oh, she works
harder than I do, yeah.

00:14:04.296 --> 00:14:05.086
Michael: working dad, right?

00:14:05.746 --> 00:14:08.276
Right, but you're supporting
in different ways, and you both

00:14:08.326 --> 00:14:10.546
need each other to do that.

00:14:10.576 --> 00:14:15.726
But your purpose for running your
business is much more personal when

00:14:15.726 --> 00:14:18.786
you partner up, when you have those
kids, and I just love how you put that.

00:14:19.451 --> 00:14:22.621
Jason: Yeah, I wanna add that 'cause one
more thing that I feel like you, you made

00:14:22.621 --> 00:14:28.336
me think of is, well, being less selfish
just helps you be a better business owner,

00:14:28.336 --> 00:14:30.736
and kids force you to be less selfish.

00:14:30.946 --> 00:14:34.846
I used to think me being a business
owner made me a better dad, right?

00:14:34.846 --> 00:14:36.136
And, and maybe that is true.

00:14:36.136 --> 00:14:38.866
Being a business owner has forced
me to get disciplined and organized

00:14:38.866 --> 00:14:42.136
and communication, increased
my communication abilities,

00:14:42.136 --> 00:14:43.426
which has helped me at the home.

00:14:43.786 --> 00:14:46.926
But I feel like being a dad,
it gives me the skillsets to

00:14:46.926 --> 00:14:48.206
be a better business owner.

00:14:48.216 --> 00:14:52.846
It's like, when you're a dad, you,
you keep just giving to your kids.

00:14:52.846 --> 00:14:55.886
You give and you give and you give
to 'em when you're exhausted, and

00:14:55.886 --> 00:14:58.036
you feel like you've given everything
and it's the middle of the night,

00:14:58.046 --> 00:15:00.756
and you have a big day the next day,
if they're crying, I'm gonna get up,

00:15:00.756 --> 00:15:02.126
and I'm gonna go help 'em, right?

00:15:02.126 --> 00:15:02.246
Like,

00:15:23.746 --> 00:15:26.706
you just keep giving, but when
I can strengthen that muscle to

00:15:26.706 --> 00:15:30.276
just keep giving, that's what
makes me a better business owner.

00:15:30.276 --> 00:15:35.716
It's when my customers, when I feel
like I've given to 'em, I've given

00:15:35.716 --> 00:15:39.766
to 'em, I've given to 'em, and
they're still asking for more, it's

00:15:39.766 --> 00:15:40.586
like I'm just gonna keep doing it.

00:15:40.586 --> 00:15:40.891
When I'm talking with a, like

00:15:40.891 --> 00:15:41.052
employees, or vendors I'm working
with, you, your own team, it's like

00:15:41.052 --> 00:15:41.253
I'm just giving to 'em, I'm giving
to 'em, and I think that's the muscle

00:15:41.253 --> 00:15:41.468
being a dad has helped me strengthen is
this isn't all here to just serve me.

00:15:41.468 --> 00:15:41.655
I'm here to serve them and that comes
from learning to be less selfish,

00:15:41.655 --> 00:15:41.803
which I wouldn't have considered
myself a selfish person until I

00:15:41.803 --> 00:15:41.896
had kids, and then I realized, wow,

00:15:41.896 --> 00:15:44.686
Jason: I got a lot of room
to improve in, in this area.

00:15:45.326 --> 00:15:45.606
Michael: Yeah.

00:15:45.686 --> 00:15:48.096
Kids will set you
straight real fast, right?

00:15:49.616 --> 00:15:55.646
So, if we flip this, this narrative
around, what is something that you maybe

00:15:55.646 --> 00:15:59.636
believed about success before you had
kids that you kind of had to unlearn?

00:16:01.806 --> 00:16:07.096
Right, 'cause you learned that
you need to be-- there's no kind

00:16:07.096 --> 00:16:08.276
of limit to your giving, right?

00:16:08.936 --> 00:16:09.356
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:16:10.086 --> 00:16:13.026
Michael: What's the-- was there something
you were doing before that when you

00:16:13.026 --> 00:16:15.536
had kids, you're like, "Yeah, that's
not gonna work anymore. That's not

00:16:15.536 --> 00:16:18.236
the, the right way to move forward."

00:16:18.301 --> 00:16:20.401
Jason: Yeah, I think before I had
kids, probably, I thought the greatest

00:16:20.401 --> 00:16:24.161
thing I'd ever do with my life was
grow a big business, and if I grew

00:16:24.161 --> 00:16:27.391
the business, that would just make
everything else in my life fall into line.

00:16:27.721 --> 00:16:31.741
When you have kids, and it became very
clear, the greatest thing I'll ever do

00:16:31.741 --> 00:16:32.906
with my life is be the father to my kids.

00:16:32.906 --> 00:16:34.046
Michael: Yep.

00:16:34.261 --> 00:16:38.206
Jason: And, that it just
rightly ordered things.

00:16:38.206 --> 00:16:39.766
That's the dominating factor.

00:16:39.766 --> 00:16:42.966
That is the greatest thing I'll
ever do with my life, and, and

00:16:42.966 --> 00:16:44.446
it might not even affect my life.

00:16:44.446 --> 00:16:45.616
It's what I'm doing.

00:16:45.766 --> 00:16:49.256
If I can be a good dad to my kid,
then they can be a, hopefully,

00:16:49.256 --> 00:16:53.116
they can have kids and it's just
gonna, it's not about me anymore.

00:16:53.806 --> 00:16:55.396
Such a smaller part.

00:16:55.396 --> 00:16:59.026
So, that was probably the biggest shift.

00:16:59.026 --> 00:17:03.391
And just to like tie this back,
and I realized this more after

00:17:03.391 --> 00:17:04.651
having kids to the dealership.

00:17:04.651 --> 00:17:08.041
So my great grandpa started
that business, and, you know,

00:17:08.041 --> 00:17:09.421
he had this big success story.

00:17:09.421 --> 00:17:11.401
He came from nothing, ran
away as a kid and whatever.

00:17:11.401 --> 00:17:15.151
He started bought multiple car
dealerships and became successful.

00:17:15.151 --> 00:17:19.231
But because my great-grandpa did that,
it's completely changed the trajectory of

00:17:19.231 --> 00:17:22.981
my family's legacy for generations now.

00:17:22.981 --> 00:17:24.781
I mean, my dad and uncle have it.

00:17:24.781 --> 00:17:28.171
My uncle has, he has eight kids who are
planning on going into the business.

00:17:28.171 --> 00:17:29.671
So, not em.

00:17:29.721 --> 00:17:32.181
Six of 'em are planning on
going into the business.

00:17:32.181 --> 00:17:36.081
My dad has six kids, so we all
almost equally had a lot of

00:17:36.081 --> 00:17:37.041
kids going into the dealership.

00:17:37.041 --> 00:17:39.591
So again, lots of layers
to a family business, but

00:17:42.196 --> 00:17:46.306
because my grandpa went out and pursued
his dream, it changed his son's life,

00:17:46.636 --> 00:17:50.656
my dad's life, my life, even my son's
life has been changed because my grandpa

00:17:50.656 --> 00:17:54.706
went out and pursued his dream and
now it's like me starting my business,

00:17:54.706 --> 00:17:55.996
I'm not just doing this for me.

00:17:56.386 --> 00:17:59.806
I'm doing this for, hopefully, my
grandkids are gonna be affected

00:17:59.806 --> 00:18:04.651
by me going out and changing and
building something that maybe they'll

00:18:04.651 --> 00:18:06.331
pass down my real estate portfolio.

00:18:06.331 --> 00:18:08.491
My great grandkids will
be managing it one day.

00:18:08.491 --> 00:18:10.861
So it, it just helped put
things in perspective.

00:18:10.861 --> 00:18:12.331
It's not about me, never was.

00:18:13.236 --> 00:18:14.026
Michael: I love that.

00:18:14.886 --> 00:18:18.496
I-- You-- I couldn't nod any
harder or my head would fall off.

00:18:18.496 --> 00:18:21.356
Like, I'm in total agreement
with everything you said.

00:18:21.356 --> 00:18:22.896
I-- It's the same experience to me.

00:18:22.896 --> 00:18:26.746
Like, like you said, it reorders things
for you, right, when you have kids.

00:18:26.816 --> 00:18:32.316
And I too thought, like, my greatest
purpose in life was to build the biggest,

00:18:32.316 --> 00:18:34.346
most successful company that I could.

00:18:34.746 --> 00:18:37.536
And I quickly realized once I had
kids, that wasn't the purpose, right?

00:18:37.536 --> 00:18:43.606
Like, it is to, to me, my
purpose, my meaning in life

00:18:43.666 --> 00:18:46.726
is to raise a family that will

00:18:48.886 --> 00:18:54.356
continue to give, that will... They are
happy and healthy, and that they promote

00:18:54.356 --> 00:18:56.166
that to those they are closest with.

00:18:56.166 --> 00:19:00.256
So, their kids, their friends, their
inner circle, like, they, they-- we just

00:19:00.256 --> 00:19:04.896
keep perpetuating this level of happiness
and satisfaction and good health.

00:19:05.236 --> 00:19:07.996
To me, that is what I work towards.

00:19:08.206 --> 00:19:09.286
That is what I look forward to.

00:19:09.286 --> 00:19:12.296
And so that is what kind of
helps me make those decisions

00:19:12.296 --> 00:19:14.996
of, is it work or family time?

00:19:14.996 --> 00:19:17.576
Like, what makes the most
sense in that moment?

00:19:17.716 --> 00:19:21.146
What is going to be best for
those I care about most, right?

00:19:21.146 --> 00:19:24.826
And, I think, it took me a long time to
get there, and without kids, I'm not sure

00:19:24.826 --> 00:19:26.806
I ever would have gotten there, right?

00:19:27.481 --> 00:19:30.931
But having these legacies that you
can pass on, your legacy can be

00:19:31.171 --> 00:19:33.131
a lot of different things, right?

00:19:33.441 --> 00:19:37.191
The legacy can be financial, it can
be partially, it can be emotional.

00:19:37.591 --> 00:19:44.691
You know, it could be ex-, exposing
opportunities to your family, right?

00:19:44.691 --> 00:19:48.651
Of, like, your kids might not know what
certain things are, but you start to

00:19:48.651 --> 00:19:52.861
show them what opportunities there are in
this world, that the world is bigger than

00:19:52.861 --> 00:19:55.341
the, kind of the zone that we live in.

00:19:55.551 --> 00:19:57.331
Like, yeah, we know what
our house looks like.

00:19:57.331 --> 00:19:58.471
We-- Or we know what our home looks like.

00:19:58.471 --> 00:19:59.931
We know what our school looks like.

00:19:59.931 --> 00:20:01.241
We know what our town looks like.

00:20:01.581 --> 00:20:04.431
Maybe we've visited a couple other
towns, but there's a whole world out

00:20:04.431 --> 00:20:08.391
there of different opportunities, people
that are solving different problems,

00:20:08.391 --> 00:20:11.721
people that are pursuing different
dreams, things that we would never

00:20:11.721 --> 00:20:13.941
even know about or consider, right?

00:20:13.941 --> 00:20:18.571
And for, for us, it's like, yes, I'm
in a very fortunate position that I

00:20:18.571 --> 00:20:23.351
can think about my legacy being of
happiness and health and things like that.

00:20:23.351 --> 00:20:27.651
But, you know, there's probably fathers
out there that their legacy is putting

00:20:27.651 --> 00:20:32.841
clean water in their family for the
next, you know, multiple generations,

00:20:32.871 --> 00:20:38.021
or having a s-, you know, more structure
or education provided to them so

00:20:38.221 --> 00:20:42.641
their kids can then build the next
set, so they can start to, you know,

00:20:43.171 --> 00:20:44.821
pursue bigger and broader dreams.

00:20:45.556 --> 00:20:46.006
Jason: Yeah.

00:20:46.151 --> 00:20:46.711
Michael: So it's...

00:20:46.756 --> 00:20:49.636
Jason: And I think that brings up a
good point 'cause I feel like one of

00:20:49.636 --> 00:20:53.026
the things I've been trying to build
into our family is everyone gets so

00:20:53.026 --> 00:20:54.496
focused on generational wealth, right?

00:20:54.496 --> 00:20:56.416
And generational wealth, look,
that's, that's a great thing,

00:20:56.416 --> 00:20:59.866
but what you're really aiming for
is generational habits, right?

00:20:59.866 --> 00:21:01.216
What are the habits I'm gonna pass down?

00:21:01.216 --> 00:21:04.906
And if I look at like, so many of the
habits that I was taught from my dad,

00:21:04.966 --> 00:21:08.596
he points to our, our great grandpa
Rudy, who started these dealerships.

00:21:10.001 --> 00:21:12.521
It's like they still reference
this guy all the time.

00:21:12.521 --> 00:21:13.181
I never even met him.

00:21:13.181 --> 00:21:15.281
And it's like, well, Rudy said to
do this and Rudy said to do that.

00:21:15.281 --> 00:21:18.221
But it was really good
foundational habits of this is

00:21:18.221 --> 00:21:19.601
how you live a disciplined life.

00:21:19.601 --> 00:21:21.761
This is how you work really hard.

00:21:22.751 --> 00:21:25.451
But those are the habits that
allowed them to succeed for four

00:21:25.451 --> 00:21:27.461
generations with a, a family business.

00:21:27.731 --> 00:21:31.571
But that's also allowed me to go out
and start something outside of that

00:21:31.661 --> 00:21:35.776
business is it's generational habits,
and they don't have to be entrepreneurial

00:21:35.776 --> 00:21:38.836
focused, but what are those habits that
you're gonna build within yourself so

00:21:38.836 --> 00:21:40.546
that you can pass 'em down to your kids?

00:21:40.701 --> 00:21:42.321
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:21:42.971 --> 00:21:48.101
And it's interesting, like what
habits do get passed down, right?

00:21:48.101 --> 00:21:48.431
'Cause...

00:21:48.676 --> 00:21:49.816
Jason: Lots of bad ones too, and

00:21:49.951 --> 00:21:50.261
Michael: Right.

00:21:50.266 --> 00:21:51.166
Jason: I didn't escape that.

00:21:51.946 --> 00:21:52.176
Yeah, that's, yeah.

00:21:52.721 --> 00:21:56.021
Michael: I mean, certainly you want
to focus on the good ones, but we also

00:21:56.021 --> 00:21:59.361
have to recognize, like, sometimes we
need to break some of these habits.

00:22:00.041 --> 00:22:00.271
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:22:00.701 --> 00:22:01.011
Michael: I understand.

00:22:01.011 --> 00:22:08.501
It-- So part of these habits, and
I think for you in particular, at

00:22:08.501 --> 00:22:15.151
some point, it seemed to me like
you had questions of work and life.

00:22:15.151 --> 00:22:17.401
Like, how do you put those in alignment?

00:22:17.401 --> 00:22:20.171
How do you... What's your
work-life balance like?

00:22:21.266 --> 00:22:25.106
And you figured out for you, like, you
started your own business, you kind of,

00:22:25.176 --> 00:22:27.286
you pick and choose your hours, right?

00:22:28.116 --> 00:22:35.266
But there's always this question of, well,
how do I show up for work and also show up

00:22:36.386 --> 00:22:38.846
for the people that matter to me, right?

00:22:39.116 --> 00:22:39.406
Jason: Yeah.

00:22:39.456 --> 00:22:41.646
Michael: How am I active and present
as a father, but also how am I

00:22:41.646 --> 00:22:43.906
active and present in my business?

00:22:45.056 --> 00:22:49.636
You seem like you've, you've
found some harmony for yourself

00:22:49.636 --> 00:22:50.656
to some degree, at least.

00:22:50.986 --> 00:22:55.786
Where do you think-- What's worked for
you and kind of where do you think most

00:22:55.786 --> 00:22:58.116
dads might be struggling with this?

00:22:58.141 --> 00:22:58.561
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:22:58.876 --> 00:22:59.236
Yeah.

00:22:59.716 --> 00:23:02.716
I think, gonna speak mostly for
entrepreneurs here, but I think

00:23:02.716 --> 00:23:05.416
this can apply for people who
don't have their own businesses.

00:23:06.496 --> 00:23:09.016
A lot of times people think their,
their work or their business is

00:23:09.016 --> 00:23:10.606
the end mean or the end, right?

00:23:10.856 --> 00:23:13.646
Yeah, that's the end and, and they
build out their goals towards that

00:23:14.206 --> 00:23:16.996
when really our business should
be the means, not the end, right?

00:23:17.116 --> 00:23:19.336
The lifestyle we want should be the end.

00:23:19.336 --> 00:23:23.116
And, and where this all started is I
mapped out, this is the lifestyle I want.

00:23:23.206 --> 00:23:24.706
Here's how many hours
a week I want to work.

00:23:24.806 --> 00:23:26.061
Here's the type of money I wanna make.

00:23:26.061 --> 00:23:28.641
Here's the freedoms I want this
business to gimme, the type of

00:23:28.641 --> 00:23:29.811
connections I want it to make.

00:23:30.891 --> 00:23:33.351
And then once I map that out,
then I can make the business.

00:23:33.351 --> 00:23:35.871
That'll be the means to fulfill that.

00:23:36.171 --> 00:23:38.331
If you flip flop those, if
you make your business the

00:23:38.331 --> 00:23:40.431
end, you often succeed, right?

00:23:40.431 --> 00:23:41.571
It completely overtakes your life.

00:23:41.571 --> 00:23:44.301
And then there's no work-life balance
'cause the business is the end.

00:23:44.541 --> 00:23:47.781
So, I think for dads, it's really
getting clear on what's the lifestyle

00:23:47.781 --> 00:23:50.001
you want and outlining that.

00:23:50.061 --> 00:23:51.261
How many hours a week is it?

00:23:51.261 --> 00:23:58.221
Because then that, that becomes a
constraint and constraints, they,

00:23:58.281 --> 00:24:00.021
they allow you to get more creative.

00:24:01.671 --> 00:24:03.801
When I'm working with my coaching
clients, I talk a lot about

00:24:03.801 --> 00:24:05.301
how structure equals freedom.

00:24:05.361 --> 00:24:08.721
Like when you have structure, you, it
gives you the ability to have freedom.

00:24:08.721 --> 00:24:13.521
And, and maybe that can be a, a long
side tangent, but it's given me clarity

00:24:13.521 --> 00:24:18.736
when I'm growing my businesses, if, if
my work is starting to expand out of

00:24:18.736 --> 00:24:22.456
the work time that I want to allocate
towards it, I need different systems.

00:24:22.696 --> 00:24:26.176
Like, I bought, I can't remember
if I had mentioned to you the

00:24:26.176 --> 00:24:27.166
other day, I have rental property.

00:24:27.166 --> 00:24:31.366
So, I have 34 apartments, and I had,
I had 10 apartments and three years

00:24:31.366 --> 00:24:33.076
ago I bought this 24 unit building.

00:24:33.346 --> 00:24:37.756
So there was a lot more work that all
of a sudden was demanded, and it was

00:24:37.756 --> 00:24:42.346
starting to make me work outside of the
number of hours I wanted to work, and

00:24:42.346 --> 00:24:44.171
it was okay, this isn't an option here.

00:24:44.171 --> 00:24:46.721
This should only take up
a certain number of hours.

00:24:46.781 --> 00:24:48.161
I need to make new processes.

00:24:48.161 --> 00:24:49.031
I need to hire somebody.

00:24:49.031 --> 00:24:53.741
I need to make processes because how I
manage my 10 apartments will not work to

00:24:53.741 --> 00:24:57.971
now manage 34 apartments if I still wanna
be putting in the same amount of time.

00:24:58.361 --> 00:25:02.251
Now, if I didn't have that clear
picture of here's the lifestyle

00:25:02.251 --> 00:25:05.156
I want, I'd probably be on a call
with one of my tenants right now.

00:25:05.156 --> 00:25:09.036
And, so, it's, it's creating that, keeping
that as the end destination, and then

00:25:09.516 --> 00:25:13.116
I think it makes it more of a fun game.

00:25:13.256 --> 00:25:15.246
It's constraints to get
creative and master.

00:25:16.136 --> 00:25:16.736
Michael: Yeah it's really interesting.

00:25:17.056 --> 00:25:22.026
I mean, you flip the lens on the
question of work-life balance of,

00:25:22.266 --> 00:25:28.366
you know, you are essentially putting
limits on both sides of the equation.

00:25:28.366 --> 00:25:33.076
I'm only going to put, or what is,
how many hours am I willing to put

00:25:33.076 --> 00:25:37.516
into this business, and how many hours
am I leaving for my family, right?

00:25:37.516 --> 00:25:40.036
Like, you are setting these limits.

00:25:40.036 --> 00:25:45.996
And, I think, what's interesting to me is
like, it's more than just time too, right?

00:25:46.026 --> 00:25:48.206
It is the type of work that you do.

00:25:48.446 --> 00:25:52.136
Like you said that you, you know, you
had this twenty-four unit building

00:25:52.796 --> 00:25:55.256
and you created new processes, but
that also meant hiring somebody

00:25:55.256 --> 00:25:56.596
to do some of that work, right?

00:25:56.946 --> 00:26:03.106
I think finding the right balance, , is
what is the work that I want to do?

00:26:03.176 --> 00:26:06.486
What's the work that means something to
me, and how do I make that happen, right?

00:26:06.486 --> 00:26:09.086
And for you, it's like, okay, I'm
gonna outline these processes, and

00:26:09.086 --> 00:26:14.576
then I'm going to outsource the
execution of those processes, right?

00:26:14.576 --> 00:26:19.116
So, that I can focus on, I know I have
a limited number of hours to work, so

00:26:19.116 --> 00:26:22.146
how am I go-- what do I wanna work on
during those limited number of hours?

00:26:22.446 --> 00:26:24.866
And it's probably not dealing
with tenant issues, right?

00:26:24.866 --> 00:26:27.586
It's probably working on the
coaching stuff and some of the

00:26:27.586 --> 00:26:29.736
more strategic stuff and things
that are more interesting to you.

00:26:30.116 --> 00:26:31.386
For somebody else, it
might be different, right?

00:26:31.386 --> 00:26:33.696
They may be like, "oh, I love
the interaction with the tenants.

00:26:34.006 --> 00:26:36.726
That's what I wanna focus on, and I'm
gonna outsource some of this other

00:26:36.726 --> 00:26:39.936
stuff, or I'm going to figure out
another way to automate it so that,

00:26:39.976 --> 00:26:40.396
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:26:40.646 --> 00:26:42.556
Michael: you know, I only have
this limited number of hours."

00:26:42.796 --> 00:26:46.736
But it also, you know, you've set
this north star of like, okay, these

00:26:46.736 --> 00:26:50.556
are the number of hours I'm going
to work or that I'm willing to work,

00:26:50.616 --> 00:26:54.456
and yes, there might be times where
you have to go break around that.

00:26:54.456 --> 00:26:56.626
Like, you bought a new apartment building.

00:26:56.756 --> 00:26:59.036
In the beginning, you know there's
gonna be a short season there where

00:26:59.036 --> 00:27:01.006
you have to figure out all the,

00:27:01.751 --> 00:27:02.171
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:27:02.226 --> 00:27:04.176
Michael: all the issues that are
going on, and then, then you can

00:27:04.176 --> 00:27:06.256
start to take that off your plate.

00:27:07.126 --> 00:27:10.276
But, in general, you have this north star
of like, okay, I only have so many hours.

00:27:10.866 --> 00:27:12.706
How am I going to spend them, right?

00:27:12.881 --> 00:27:13.171
Jason: Yeah.

00:27:13.626 --> 00:27:16.546
Michael: But it's, you have to be
conscious of making that choice.

00:27:17.381 --> 00:27:17.861
Jason: Yeah.

00:27:17.861 --> 00:27:23.501
And then when you make that choice, you
gotta give your clients the expectation.

00:27:23.591 --> 00:27:26.591
My clients know, here's my office hours.

00:27:27.121 --> 00:27:30.761
If you text me or send me an email outside
of there, I'm not gonna reply to you.

00:27:31.091 --> 00:27:33.011
And, but I've given them
the expectation upfront.

00:27:33.011 --> 00:27:36.581
If you go text your dentist, probably
one, you probably don't have his

00:27:36.581 --> 00:27:39.281
phone number, but even if you email
their office at 10 o'clock at night,

00:27:39.371 --> 00:27:40.721
they're not gonna email you back.

00:27:40.886 --> 00:27:43.316
Michael: Right.

00:27:43.406 --> 00:27:43.436
Jason: Right?

00:27:43.436 --> 00:27:47.051
Like, and even my tenants, now my
employee carries the company phone,

00:27:47.051 --> 00:27:49.421
but it's like from the beginning I
told 'em, here's our office hours.

00:27:49.421 --> 00:27:53.291
We tell the store our tenants from 10:00
to 4:00PM, don't call us outside of there.

00:27:53.321 --> 00:27:54.071
We won't answer.

00:27:54.251 --> 00:27:56.351
There's a different number they
can call for an emergency, right?

00:27:56.351 --> 00:27:57.251
We're not negligent.

00:27:57.521 --> 00:28:01.031
But if I give them the expectation
up front, then it doesn't create

00:28:01.031 --> 00:28:02.921
a disconnect with your clients.

00:28:02.921 --> 00:28:06.581
And, as a business owner, I think that's
really important because if you don't

00:28:06.581 --> 00:28:09.541
give 'em the expectation, your clients
are gonna call you at nine o'clock

00:28:09.541 --> 00:28:12.311
at night, and they're gonna expect a
response because you didn't give 'em

00:28:12.381 --> 00:28:14.771
the expectation like I'm not open then.

00:28:15.551 --> 00:28:18.921
Michael: That's a great point
of setting those expectations.

00:28:18.921 --> 00:28:24.271
Are there other habits that, or
systems you use that kind of make such

00:28:24.271 --> 00:28:28.721
a big difference to how you show up,
not just at work, but at home, that

00:28:28.721 --> 00:28:29.971
allows you to, to show up at home?

00:28:31.331 --> 00:28:34.991
Jason: Yeah, I think what's helped me is I
have a, you know, everyone's familiar with

00:28:34.991 --> 00:28:38.261
like morning routine and evening routine.

00:28:38.681 --> 00:28:42.761
So, because I work from home, I don't
have a commute to unwind my mind.

00:28:42.971 --> 00:28:45.491
So, I have, I call it an
end of workday routine.

00:28:45.521 --> 00:28:48.641
I'd highly recommend this for people
working from home, whether you work for

00:28:48.641 --> 00:28:52.511
yourself or not, but it's a short end
of day routine that helps me mentally

00:28:52.511 --> 00:28:57.146
switch gears from work mode to dad
mode before I walk out my door here

00:28:57.146 --> 00:28:59.246
into the rest of my house with my kids.

00:28:59.246 --> 00:29:01.436
So, like, for me, I have
a timer that goes off.

00:29:01.436 --> 00:29:03.686
I'm done working at 4:45PM.

00:29:03.956 --> 00:29:07.976
So, 10 minutes before, at 4:35, I
have a alarm that goes off every

00:29:07.976 --> 00:29:11.336
day, tells me work day's over, and
I start my end of the day routine.

00:29:11.756 --> 00:29:13.616
For me, that means I journal on the day.

00:29:13.766 --> 00:29:15.416
I write out a plan for tomorrow.

00:29:15.566 --> 00:29:18.536
So that way I don't have tasks on my mind
like, oh, I still have to get this done.

00:29:18.536 --> 00:29:20.221
It's like, no, no, no,
we wrapped up today.

00:29:20.896 --> 00:29:22.666
We already have a written
plan to get it done tomorrow.

00:29:22.816 --> 00:29:26.626
I clean my office and then
I'll, and then I'll leave.

00:29:26.986 --> 00:29:30.426
And it just helps me show up as a dad.

00:29:30.436 --> 00:29:34.666
'cause otherwise, if I just step outta
the office, it's, I'm still trying to

00:29:34.666 --> 00:29:38.896
solve the problem I was just looking at a
minute ago, and now my kids come, and, so,

00:29:38.926 --> 00:29:41.536
that's, that's been a huge help for me.

00:29:41.536 --> 00:29:44.416
I used to do maybe I'll
get into this again.

00:29:44.416 --> 00:29:45.406
I used to have an ice bath.

00:29:45.406 --> 00:29:48.616
Have you got, had anybody on your show
who's gotten into the cold plunges.

00:29:49.031 --> 00:29:50.231
Michael: No, I do have a good friend that

00:29:50.801 --> 00:29:51.221
Jason: Yeah.

00:29:51.331 --> 00:29:51.881
Michael: is a big...

00:29:52.091 --> 00:29:53.771
Jason: our cold plunge broke,
and I haven't gotten another one.

00:29:53.771 --> 00:29:56.761
And with our kids, I don't know
if we want it around now, now

00:29:56.761 --> 00:29:57.401
that they're getting older.

00:29:57.401 --> 00:30:02.471
But I would do that in between
work and when I'd leave my office

00:30:02.471 --> 00:30:05.561
is I'd go do a cold plunge, and
that thing would clear your mind.

00:30:05.801 --> 00:30:09.131
You can't be thinking about your
client while you're in the ice bath.

00:30:09.131 --> 00:30:09.791
It's so cold.

00:30:09.791 --> 00:30:11.981
But then you would
completely clear my mind.

00:30:11.981 --> 00:30:16.071
I'd have a bunch of energy and
I was like, I was ready to show

00:30:16.071 --> 00:30:17.181
up and be there with our kids.

00:30:17.181 --> 00:30:18.411
So experiment.

00:30:18.411 --> 00:30:18.951
Find what works.

00:30:18.951 --> 00:30:22.221
But I think you have to create a boundary
to men-, for mentally transitioning.

00:30:22.631 --> 00:30:22.771
Michael: Yeah.

00:30:23.201 --> 00:30:28.411
I love that idea of having this
end-of-day routine to help you switch

00:30:28.721 --> 00:30:34.361
between work mode and home mode,
especially working from home, right?

00:30:34.361 --> 00:30:38.471
Because the physical
space is one and the same.

00:30:38.471 --> 00:30:40.721
Yes, you might be in a separate
room, and so you've got that, like,

00:30:41.291 --> 00:30:43.891
physical reminder of, "Yeah, I'm not
in my office anymore. I don't need to

00:30:43.891 --> 00:30:46.296
work." But, you didn't go anywhere,

00:30:46.956 --> 00:30:47.376
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:30:47.456 --> 00:30:47.486
Michael: right?

00:30:47.486 --> 00:30:48.266
You didn't get in your car.

00:30:48.436 --> 00:30:49.996
You didn't go outside and walk.

00:30:49.996 --> 00:30:52.756
Like, you just went from
one room to the next.

00:30:52.756 --> 00:30:59.096
And having a way to clear your mind
a bit, it better serves not just

00:30:59.096 --> 00:31:00.516
yourself, but your family, right?

00:31:00.516 --> 00:31:01.136
Because

00:31:01.136 --> 00:31:01.556
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:31:01.606 --> 00:31:06.836
Michael: now you can give them your more
full attention because your mind is clear.

00:31:07.076 --> 00:31:07.836
And it's not easy.

00:31:07.836 --> 00:31:13.246
Like, I probably struggle with this myself
of like, okay, end of the workday, now

00:31:13.246 --> 00:31:18.326
it's time to, you know, leave my office,
which is in my house, and go into another

00:31:18.326 --> 00:31:23.336
room and catch up with the family and
start dinner and take kids to their

00:31:23.336 --> 00:31:25.486
activities, whatever it may be, right?

00:31:25.646 --> 00:31:28.516
But it's like, I'm kind of still
thinking about work sometimes.

00:31:28.516 --> 00:31:31.016
Like, there's just one thing I
need to finish up, and that's gonna

00:31:31.016 --> 00:31:32.026
be on my mind until it's done.

00:31:33.196 --> 00:31:38.336
But having a routine to help clear that
out, I think is, it's brilliant, right?

00:31:38.336 --> 00:31:38.876
It's just like,

00:31:38.996 --> 00:31:39.446
Jason: Yeah.

00:31:39.506 --> 00:31:40.066
Michael: it's useful.

00:31:41.186 --> 00:31:41.456
Jason: Yeah.

00:31:41.456 --> 00:31:43.556
And I, I don't work after I leave then.

00:31:43.556 --> 00:31:45.356
And I think that boundary
has been helpful.

00:31:45.356 --> 00:31:46.856
It's like I leave the office and I'm done.

00:31:48.056 --> 00:31:50.516
It's, it's not like, oh, I'm gonna
send some more emails later tonight.

00:31:50.516 --> 00:31:51.476
It's like, nope, I'm done.

00:31:51.476 --> 00:31:52.556
I'm not even checking my email.

00:31:52.616 --> 00:31:56.126
And I mean, that's the expectation
I've created with my wife, so

00:31:56.126 --> 00:32:00.206
there'd be a big expectations
gap if I didn't fulfill on that.

00:32:00.366 --> 00:32:01.556
Michael: Sure.

00:32:01.691 --> 00:32:03.341
Jason: But, again, the
constraint, it helps you be

00:32:03.341 --> 00:32:05.891
more productive during the day.

00:32:05.891 --> 00:32:09.131
And I, I will add in,
I'm a big fan of timers.

00:32:09.161 --> 00:32:11.371
If I didn't have the timer to go
off for that end of the workday

00:32:11.371 --> 00:32:12.006
routine, I wouldn't do it.

00:32:13.976 --> 00:32:16.496
It's gotta go off, and it goes
back to what I mentioned earlier,

00:32:16.496 --> 00:32:18.006
structure brings freedom.

00:32:18.056 --> 00:32:20.916
It's, most people want to be able to
have an end of workday routine where

00:32:20.916 --> 00:32:23.366
it's like, yeah, I would love if I could
sit and journal at the end of my day and

00:32:23.366 --> 00:32:25.066
mentally unwind, but they don't do it.

00:32:25.266 --> 00:32:25.306
Michael: Right.

00:32:26.266 --> 00:32:28.651
Jason: And I'm sure there are some, but
like that's where I need the structure.

00:32:28.711 --> 00:32:29.551
I need the alarms.

00:32:29.551 --> 00:32:32.671
That structure gives me the freedom
to do what I actually want to do,

00:32:32.946 --> 00:32:33.136
Michael: Right.

00:32:33.211 --> 00:32:34.611
Jason: and it's freeing

00:32:35.126 --> 00:32:35.386
Michael: Yep.

00:32:35.401 --> 00:32:35.791
Jason: to journal,

00:32:36.426 --> 00:32:36.786
Michael: Absolutely.

00:32:36.851 --> 00:32:37.891
Jason: and show up as
the person I wanna be.

00:32:38.306 --> 00:32:38.476
Michael: Right.

00:32:38.896 --> 00:32:46.426
And do you have, on the flip side of that,
like, you don't do work after work hours.

00:32:46.896 --> 00:32:51.836
Does family time ever bleed into your
work time, or is that also, have you

00:32:51.836 --> 00:32:59.236
set up boundaries or limits there
where everyone knows like 8:45 to 4:45,

00:32:59.366 --> 00:33:03.786
or whatever the hours are, like, if
you're in the office, you're working

00:33:03.786 --> 00:33:05.886
and there is no disruption there?

00:33:06.446 --> 00:33:07.586
Jason: Yeah, the kids don't come in.

00:33:07.586 --> 00:33:08.576
My wife doesn't come in.

00:33:08.576 --> 00:33:11.276
I mean, she's allowed to knock on
our door, but there's, they know

00:33:11.276 --> 00:33:12.746
this is not the place for them.

00:33:13.706 --> 00:33:17.006
But I would say part of the reason
I wanted my own business was so

00:33:17.006 --> 00:33:22.376
that in the middle of the day, if
my son's got his Christmas carol in

00:33:22.376 --> 00:33:24.386
the middle of the day at preschool,
it's like, I'm gonna go to it.

00:33:24.386 --> 00:33:29.366
So, I still go to a lot of family
events that do happen in the middle

00:33:29.366 --> 00:33:34.496
of the day, but as far as when I'm
in my office, this is not, yeah,

00:33:34.496 --> 00:33:35.576
there's a good boundary there.

00:33:35.576 --> 00:33:38.666
They do not come in here, but I still
have the freedom to rearrange my schedule.

00:33:38.836 --> 00:33:40.176
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:33:42.141 --> 00:33:47.611
So you-- Looking back at our conversation
in its entirety and kind of your journey,

00:33:47.611 --> 00:33:54.311
like, you figured out for yourself
that you wanted a new path, right?

00:33:54.311 --> 00:33:54.591
Like,

00:33:55.131 --> 00:33:55.551
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:33:55.741 --> 00:33:58.211
Michael: selling cars was not your thing.

00:33:58.301 --> 00:33:59.711
It just wasn't you, right?

00:33:59.711 --> 00:34:04.441
And so you were like, "I want to
do something different." If someone

00:34:04.471 --> 00:34:11.141
else was exploring or testing a
new path without kind of blowing up

00:34:11.141 --> 00:34:15.271
their current responsibilities, how
would you suggest they go about that?

00:34:16.166 --> 00:34:19.426
Jason: Yeah, so, I'm gonna
give two steps here for them.

00:34:19.986 --> 00:34:23.456
So, I think the first step to get
clarity on what you wanna do with

00:34:23.456 --> 00:34:25.856
your life is you gotta start to dream.

00:34:26.246 --> 00:34:29.876
I, I'm gonna explain what I mean by
dream, but I dream every single day.

00:34:29.906 --> 00:34:31.946
It's a, it's something
built into my schedule.

00:34:31.946 --> 00:34:34.646
Go into my basement, I put on my
headphones, listen some music that

00:34:34.646 --> 00:34:38.936
gets me excited, and I just pace around
and dream about the life that I want.

00:34:39.386 --> 00:34:44.711
And, and what I mean by dreams, and
you'll see why this connects, is I wanna

00:34:44.711 --> 00:34:47.531
compare dreams to goals really quick
so people understand the context here.

00:34:47.531 --> 00:34:49.391
Everyone's probably familiar
with the concept of goals, right?

00:34:49.391 --> 00:34:51.011
When you set a goal, there's
a whole S.M.A.R.T. goals.

00:34:51.011 --> 00:34:52.721
It's something specific, measurable.

00:34:52.811 --> 00:34:54.371
It's something you actually plan on doing.

00:34:55.031 --> 00:34:59.201
When you're dreaming, you're simply asking
your heart, what would I love to do?

00:34:59.201 --> 00:35:00.971
What would I love to experience?

00:35:01.181 --> 00:35:02.831
And you dream without limits.

00:35:02.861 --> 00:35:04.721
There are things you may
or may not actually do.

00:35:04.751 --> 00:35:07.611
You might dream of
owning your first house.

00:35:07.611 --> 00:35:09.621
You might dream of owning a
house in every single state.

00:35:10.101 --> 00:35:10.971
Both are great dreams.

00:35:10.971 --> 00:35:12.621
You just ask your heart,
what would I love to do?

00:35:12.621 --> 00:35:13.791
What would I love to experience?

00:35:14.121 --> 00:35:17.671
And by dreaming every single
day, it gives me two things.

00:35:17.691 --> 00:35:20.721
It gives me clarity on what I
actually want to do with my life.

00:35:20.811 --> 00:35:24.351
I have some dreams come up that I
might dream about once or twice, and

00:35:24.351 --> 00:35:27.441
then that dream kind of passes, or
I have other dreams that I can dream

00:35:27.441 --> 00:35:30.981
about again and again and again for
weeks, and it just lights a fire

00:35:30.981 --> 00:35:33.171
inside of me, and it gives me clarity.

00:35:33.171 --> 00:35:34.251
This is what I wanna do.

00:35:34.521 --> 00:35:36.531
And the second thing it does
is it gives me motivation.

00:35:36.811 --> 00:35:40.681
Because it becomes so clear in my head,
now I have the courage to go out and

00:35:40.681 --> 00:35:44.341
act on it because I can see how these
actions are directly connected to

00:35:44.341 --> 00:35:45.901
creating this dream life that I want.

00:35:46.431 --> 00:35:51.206
And, lots of times, well, and why
this is important is once you have

00:35:51.206 --> 00:35:55.556
dreams, then you can set goals that are
aimed at making those dreams happen.

00:35:55.676 --> 00:35:59.486
Your dreams will give your
goals, purpose, and it'll give

00:35:59.486 --> 00:36:00.856
you purpose within your life.

00:36:01.606 --> 00:36:06.116
However, you can still set
goals without dreams, but then

00:36:06.116 --> 00:36:07.466
they're not aiming at anything.

00:36:07.676 --> 00:36:10.771
They have no meaning because a
problem with goals is you can set a

00:36:10.771 --> 00:36:12.511
goal to do anything you want, right?

00:36:12.571 --> 00:36:16.291
You could set a goal today to, to
write a popup book about penguins,

00:36:16.291 --> 00:36:19.201
and you could just go do it,
and make a plan and execute it.

00:36:19.201 --> 00:36:21.721
But if that's not aimed at a dream
of yours, I'll tell you, Michael,

00:36:21.721 --> 00:36:22.891
that's a complete waste of time.

00:36:23.221 --> 00:36:26.081
So if you don't dream, you don't
have any meaningful goals, and if

00:36:26.081 --> 00:36:28.991
you don't have me-, any meaningful
goals in your life, you end up in

00:36:28.991 --> 00:36:30.671
this place that I call survival mode

00:36:30.831 --> 00:36:31.021
Michael: Yep.

00:36:31.031 --> 00:36:32.891
Jason: where you're just,
you're just working to survive.

00:36:33.251 --> 00:36:34.091
You don't have anything.

00:36:34.301 --> 00:36:37.001
So, going back to the dad who
might wanna start a business,

00:36:37.001 --> 00:36:38.561
start dreaming every single day.

00:36:38.561 --> 00:36:40.271
You're gonna have these
dreams, and you can set goals.

00:36:40.271 --> 00:36:43.421
It'll fill your life with purpose.

00:36:44.381 --> 00:36:47.591
It'll get you clear on what you
actually wanna do with your life.

00:36:47.591 --> 00:36:51.251
Now, the second part of this question is
once you start to clarify what you wanna

00:36:51.251 --> 00:36:56.081
do with your life, or the business idea
or career, go find someone who's already

00:36:56.081 --> 00:36:57.581
done it, and ask them how they did it.

00:36:58.066 --> 00:37:18.836
Michael: Yeah.

00:37:18.861 --> 00:37:19.281
Jason: And meet with them,
and I've got a whole bunch of

00:37:19.281 --> 00:37:19.555
strategies for that, but I had a mentor
of mine when I was first starting my

00:37:19.555 --> 00:37:19.794
business, he told me, he said, "Jason, the
shortest distance between two points is

00:37:19.794 --> 00:37:20.051
a straight line, right?" So, whenever you
want to do something, the easiest way to

00:37:20.051 --> 00:37:20.358
do it is find someone who has already done
that, and just ask them how they did it.

00:37:20.358 --> 00:37:20.444
Boom, there's your straight line.

00:37:20.444 --> 00:37:20.546
So, whenever I'm gonna start a,

00:37:20.546 --> 00:37:23.606
Jason: a new business or even just a
new venture within my business, that

00:37:23.606 --> 00:37:26.966
is my number one mission, is I need
to find someone who's already done

00:37:26.966 --> 00:37:31.436
this and ask 'em how they did it,
or just ask 'em about it and decide,

00:37:31.436 --> 00:37:32.726
is this actually what I want to do?

00:37:32.726 --> 00:37:36.266
So, start dreaming, figure out what's the
idea that's gonna light a fire inside of

00:37:36.266 --> 00:37:41.186
you, give you the courage to take risks,
like leave your job or to work, work

00:37:41.186 --> 00:37:45.746
hard, and then find people who've already
done it so you can follow a proven path.

00:37:46.346 --> 00:37:46.826
Michael: Love that.

00:37:47.256 --> 00:37:54.966
And it, it's unbelievable how
deceptively powerful and yet easy it

00:37:54.966 --> 00:37:57.256
is to ask somebody how they did it.

00:37:57.646 --> 00:37:59.736
People love talking
about themselves, right?

00:37:59.736 --> 00:38:02.906
So, it's just like if you have this idea
and you want to pursue it and you find

00:38:02.906 --> 00:38:08.246
someone that's done something similar, you
ask them, more than likely, way more than

00:38:08.246 --> 00:38:09.836
likely, they're willing to talk about it.

00:38:10.346 --> 00:38:10.766
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:38:10.816 --> 00:38:14.676
Michael: And what I found is like
not-- the challenge is getting them

00:38:14.676 --> 00:38:16.536
to stop talking about it, right?

00:38:16.566 --> 00:38:20.716
They will just tell you so much because
that's what they're excited about,

00:38:20.716 --> 00:38:22.696
that's what they're interested in,
'cause that's what they do every day.

00:38:23.236 --> 00:38:26.256
And they will s-, they will tell
you and tell you and tell you.

00:38:27.306 --> 00:38:32.206
And the harder part is like
how do you focus them, right?

00:38:32.406 --> 00:38:34.436
Ask the right questions, right?

00:38:34.436 --> 00:38:37.746
But it's really as simple as reaching
out, 'cause the worst that happens is

00:38:37.746 --> 00:38:39.936
to say, is that they say no, right?

00:38:40.646 --> 00:38:40.826
Jason: Yeah, yeah.

00:38:40.886 --> 00:38:43.461
You didn't have a, a meeting
scheduled with them before.

00:38:43.481 --> 00:38:44.341
You don't have one now.

00:38:44.521 --> 00:38:44.741
No.

00:38:44.801 --> 00:38:45.181
I'm done.

00:38:45.426 --> 00:38:45.856
Michael: Exactly.

00:38:45.856 --> 00:38:48.026
If they say no or they
ghost you, that is it.

00:38:48.571 --> 00:38:48.991
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:38:49.576 --> 00:38:51.196
Michael: Does that feel good?

00:38:51.226 --> 00:38:51.936
Nah, maybe not.

00:38:51.936 --> 00:38:52.766
But so what?

00:38:52.766 --> 00:38:55.996
There's many more people that have
done other interesting, exciting

00:38:55.996 --> 00:38:58.406
things that may be related to what
you're doing that you can learn from.

00:38:58.406 --> 00:38:59.726
So, that's a great idea.

00:38:59.756 --> 00:39:00.256
I love that.

00:39:02.286 --> 00:39:03.906
So, last question before we
get into the speed round.

00:39:03.906 --> 00:39:08.766
If we were to, if someone is listening
right now and wants to take one small

00:39:08.766 --> 00:39:10.716
step this week just to get started, right?

00:39:10.716 --> 00:39:13.326
Of like, I want to figure
out what's next for me.

00:39:14.136 --> 00:39:20.446
I want to figure out a better way
to align my work with my life at

00:39:20.446 --> 00:39:22.686
home by doing something meaningful.

00:39:23.416 --> 00:39:24.796
What would you suggest they do?

00:39:25.086 --> 00:39:26.606
One small step they could take.

00:39:27.211 --> 00:39:28.751
Jason: Start dreaming every single day.

00:39:29.081 --> 00:39:31.991
Set a timer for 10 minutes
and dream without limits.

00:39:32.201 --> 00:39:36.161
It's like when I'm working with people,
you know, they're trying to figure out

00:39:36.161 --> 00:39:37.271
what do I wanna do with my life, right?

00:39:37.271 --> 00:39:38.531
And that's a good question to ask.

00:39:38.531 --> 00:39:40.661
And I'll always ask them,
what do you dream of doing?

00:39:41.051 --> 00:39:44.711
And, very often people will have a
dream that they share with me, but

00:39:44.711 --> 00:39:46.541
also often people say, I don't know.

00:39:46.991 --> 00:39:48.941
And I'll ask 'em, how often do you dream?

00:39:49.631 --> 00:39:50.051
Never.

00:39:50.701 --> 00:39:52.556
Alright, there's your problem, right?

00:39:52.646 --> 00:39:55.106
Once you dream, then you
can have meaningful goals,

00:39:55.106 --> 00:39:55.836
and it gives you purpose.

00:39:55.856 --> 00:39:57.476
So if you don't dream, you
don't have meaningful goals,

00:39:57.476 --> 00:39:58.406
you end up in survival mode.

00:39:58.406 --> 00:40:01.346
So, dream every single day.

00:40:01.346 --> 00:40:03.476
And that doesn't have to be
necessarily a business idea.

00:40:03.476 --> 00:40:05.726
It could be you could dream about
a whole bunch of different business

00:40:05.726 --> 00:40:07.136
ideas, start writing 'em down.

00:40:07.376 --> 00:40:09.866
But otherwise, going back to what we
talked about earlier, I want you to

00:40:09.866 --> 00:40:11.576
dream about the lifestyle that you want.

00:40:12.506 --> 00:40:13.556
How much you wanna be working?

00:40:13.556 --> 00:40:14.336
What freedoms do you wanna have?

00:40:14.336 --> 00:40:15.086
Do you wanna work from home?

00:40:15.086 --> 00:40:16.316
Do you wanna work from an office?

00:40:17.846 --> 00:40:19.616
Just start to clarify the lifestyle.

00:40:19.976 --> 00:40:20.136
Michael: Yep.

00:40:20.396 --> 00:40:20.486
Yep.

00:40:20.876 --> 00:40:21.186
Yeah, I love that.

00:40:21.186 --> 00:40:24.536
I think to me what's most interesting
about what you just said is about the

00:40:24.536 --> 00:40:26.696
lifestyle of dream about your lifestyle.

00:40:27.136 --> 00:40:28.556
It's how you want to
spend your time, right?

00:40:28.736 --> 00:40:32.426
You didn't say like, "What size
house do I want?" or, "What kind

00:40:32.426 --> 00:40:33.656
of yacht do I want to ride?" Right?

00:40:33.656 --> 00:40:35.976
It's like, what do you want for yourself?

00:40:35.976 --> 00:40:37.146
Like, how do you want to spend your time?

00:40:38.066 --> 00:40:38.486
Jason: Mm-hmm.

00:40:38.716 --> 00:40:40.516
Michael: You probably want
some intellectual challenges.

00:40:40.516 --> 00:40:45.246
Maybe that's what work brings you, and
you probably want some personal time of

00:40:45.336 --> 00:40:48.886
like doing things with those that you care
about most, your family, your friends.

00:40:48.886 --> 00:40:52.556
Like how do you, and then how
do you kind of find the, the

00:40:52.556 --> 00:40:53.676
right balance between those?

00:40:53.686 --> 00:40:55.196
So, I love that idea of...

00:40:55.481 --> 00:40:59.471
Jason: And that's good 'cause if somebody,
if all they dream about is making more

00:40:59.471 --> 00:41:02.106
money, I tell 'em they don't actually know
what they wanna do with their life yet.

00:41:02.746 --> 00:41:02.976
Michael: Yep.

00:41:03.236 --> 00:41:05.936
Jason: That's like the cop out where
if you don't have clarity on what

00:41:05.936 --> 00:41:08.216
you wanna do with your life, you
think I just need to make more money.

00:41:08.486 --> 00:41:08.816
It's like,

00:41:09.466 --> 00:41:12.156
look, I have nothing against you
making more money, but it's like what

00:41:12.156 --> 00:41:13.546
do you actually want to do, right?

00:41:13.576 --> 00:41:16.396
After you already have all the
money, what would you go do?

00:41:16.616 --> 00:41:17.006
Michael: Right, right.

00:41:17.006 --> 00:41:21.266
Jason: And, alright, now you're getting
clarity on this is, this is what's

00:41:21.266 --> 00:41:22.286
gonna light a fire inside of you.

00:41:22.676 --> 00:41:22.876
Michael: Yep.

00:41:23.906 --> 00:41:24.296
I agree.

00:41:24.676 --> 00:41:28.866
All right, from the stuff made of
dreams to the stuff that you might

00:41:28.866 --> 00:41:32.126
be thinking about for a long time
afterwards, let's go into our speed round.

00:41:33.606 --> 00:41:34.676
Five quick questions.

00:41:34.736 --> 00:41:38.696
First one, what's the first kids
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:41:41.471 --> 00:41:42.011
Jason: Barney.

00:41:42.256 --> 00:41:42.606
Michael: Barney.

00:41:42.906 --> 00:41:43.636
Okay, sure.

00:41:43.636 --> 00:41:44.216
Classic.

00:41:44.946 --> 00:41:46.336
What was your very first job?

00:41:47.861 --> 00:41:49.721
Jason: So, cleaning cars
at my dad's dealership.

00:41:50.276 --> 00:41:51.146
Michael: Ah, makes sense.

00:41:51.276 --> 00:41:51.746
Makes sense.

00:41:53.216 --> 00:41:55.446
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:41:55.446 --> 00:41:57.086
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:41:58.006 --> 00:41:59.306
Jason: Toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:41:59.396 --> 00:42:00.026
Michael: Why is that?

00:42:01.856 --> 00:42:03.626
Jason: I don't even need
to experience a T-Rex.

00:42:03.896 --> 00:42:06.746
I feel like a kid would actually
kill me, a toddler-sized T-Rex,

00:42:06.746 --> 00:42:10.376
hopefully, it would be manageable
to put in a cage or on a leash.

00:42:10.376 --> 00:42:11.846
But yeah.

00:42:12.216 --> 00:42:12.826
Michael: Fair enough.

00:42:12.896 --> 00:42:13.256
Fair enough.

00:42:13.556 --> 00:42:16.836
What's your go-to karaoke song or the
one you would sing if you, you needed to?

00:42:19.296 --> 00:42:23.931
Jason: Me and my wife did, the
last time we did karaoke, the

00:42:23.931 --> 00:42:28.011
song from Lion King, when I was
in college, it'd be Stacey's mom.

00:42:28.371 --> 00:42:29.781
Kind of embarrassed to say that, but...

00:42:29.931 --> 00:42:31.271
Michael: Fair enough.

00:42:31.301 --> 00:42:31.631
Fair enough.

00:42:31.631 --> 00:42:32.421
Fountains of Wayne, right?

00:42:32.941 --> 00:42:33.951
Or something like that, yeah.

00:42:35.021 --> 00:42:36.941
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:42:36.941 --> 00:42:38.621
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:42:42.711 --> 00:42:45.966
Jason: That I always carried
around you, probably candy.

00:42:45.966 --> 00:42:48.366
When I was in college, I had a
bad habit of eating tons of candy.

00:42:48.366 --> 00:42:50.956
I would basically never leave the
house without candy in my pocket.

00:42:51.376 --> 00:42:52.046
Terrible habit.

00:42:52.046 --> 00:42:52.626
Don't get into it.

00:42:53.511 --> 00:42:54.721
Michael: Any particular favorites?

00:42:55.686 --> 00:42:56.406
Jason: Skittles.

00:42:56.961 --> 00:42:57.211
Michael: Okay.

00:42:57.366 --> 00:43:00.156
Jason: I'd have a bag of pack,
yeah, or just fill up my pocket

00:43:00.156 --> 00:43:01.446
in my dress shirt with Skittles.

00:43:01.446 --> 00:43:03.546
I mean, I could be at a wedding,
and I'd have Skittles with me.

00:43:03.756 --> 00:43:04.206
I don't know.

00:43:06.421 --> 00:43:07.121
Michael: Always prepared.

00:43:07.501 --> 00:43:07.921
Always prepared.

00:43:08.781 --> 00:43:11.501
Well, Jason, before we wrap up, I want
to give you the floor to point people to

00:43:11.501 --> 00:43:14.351
anything you're working on or anything
that could help them take that next step.

00:43:14.641 --> 00:43:16.471
Where should people go, and
what should they check out?

00:43:17.391 --> 00:43:21.011
Jason: Yeah, so my, my
business is called Goal Crazy.

00:43:21.801 --> 00:43:24.261
So, I have these planners that
help people clarify what they

00:43:24.261 --> 00:43:26.661
want to do with their life and
then make a plan to accomplish it.

00:43:26.661 --> 00:43:30.591
And so they can find that at
goalcrazy.com or on Amazon.

00:43:30.621 --> 00:43:32.781
They can check out my planner
if they search goal crazy.

00:43:32.781 --> 00:43:36.201
But I wrote a book, it's called Dream
Driven, The Step-by-Step Process

00:43:36.201 --> 00:43:38.811
to Discover Your Perfect Business
Idea and Launch it This Year.

00:43:38.811 --> 00:43:41.511
And if, if guys are really
curious about starting a business

00:43:41.511 --> 00:43:43.071
like that, check out that book.

00:43:43.071 --> 00:43:43.751
It's on Amazon.

00:43:43.751 --> 00:43:45.711
You can get to it on
my site goalcrazy.com.

00:43:46.381 --> 00:43:47.521
But it'll be a good resource.

00:43:47.791 --> 00:43:52.321
I did put together something
free for, because of this chat.

00:43:52.591 --> 00:43:57.331
I have a free PDF that it's
my Idea to Profit Blueprint.

00:43:57.391 --> 00:44:01.081
Someone's really curious on how to map
this out to, to have a business plan,

00:44:01.351 --> 00:44:02.671
if they go to goalcrazy.com/blueprint,

00:44:05.041 --> 00:44:08.011
they can download a free PDF that'll
take 'em through some exercises

00:44:08.011 --> 00:44:10.531
that'll help 'em start with
clarifying their dream lifestyle.

00:44:10.706 --> 00:44:12.206
What's the business that'll do it?

00:44:12.296 --> 00:44:15.146
How am I gonna validate it, and how
I'm gonna, how I'm gonna launch it?

00:44:15.146 --> 00:44:16.336
So that's goalcrazy.com/blueprint.

00:44:18.731 --> 00:44:19.111
Michael: Love that.

00:44:19.151 --> 00:44:20.221
Thank you so much, Jason.

00:44:20.221 --> 00:44:22.181
I will put all those
links in the show notes.

00:44:22.801 --> 00:44:24.481
Make sure to check out
that book, Dream Driven.

00:44:25.581 --> 00:44:29.591
I think a lot of dads are going to see
themselves in a lot of parts of your

00:44:29.591 --> 00:44:34.201
journey especially that tension between
building something, continuing to build

00:44:34.201 --> 00:44:35.931
something, and being present at home.

00:44:37.311 --> 00:44:43.351
I appreciate the, the practicality
of how you accomplish that, right?

00:44:43.741 --> 00:44:47.121
And you do it from a sense of purpose.

00:44:47.171 --> 00:44:50.671
Like, that clearly, I think that
is like the word of the day, right?

00:44:50.671 --> 00:44:54.291
Of like, why are we doing these things?

00:44:54.761 --> 00:44:57.111
If we're just doing it to make money,
that's really not why we're doing it.

00:44:57.771 --> 00:44:59.071
We're doing it for
something bigger than that.

00:44:59.071 --> 00:45:00.031
We're doing it for others.

00:45:01.211 --> 00:45:03.921
And it's just so relevant
in today's day and age.

00:45:03.921 --> 00:45:05.351
So, Jason, thank you again for being here.

00:45:05.351 --> 00:45:06.321
I really appreciate it.

00:45:06.891 --> 00:45:09.081
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you

00:45:09.081 --> 00:45:12.211
find yourself in between, navigating
a season that feels different,

00:45:12.381 --> 00:45:15.501
head to gaptogig.com and subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:45:15.851 --> 00:45:19.351
It comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:45:19.381 --> 00:45:20.641
and what really matters right now.

00:45:20.641 --> 00:45:23.781
And if this conversation resonated,
please consider sending it to another

00:45:23.781 --> 00:45:24.851
dad who might need to hear it.

00:45:25.221 --> 00:45:26.791
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:45:27.021 --> 00:45:28.891
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.