Matt Campbell on Rebuilding Energy, Presence, and Work Life Balance in Fatherhood

WEBVTT

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Matt: I walk my dogs every morning,
and I promise you this, if every time

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that alarm went off, if every time when
my feet hit the ground, I gave myself

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the choice, do I want to do this?

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I am not gonna be walking very often,
right, because it's just, it, again,

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asking ourselves that every time, whatever
feeling I'm having at that time is

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usually gonna direct what I decide to do.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and our guest today is Dr. Matt

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Campbell, a clinical psychologist
with more than 20 years of experience

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helping people navigate stress,
burnout, and behavior change.

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He's the creator of the Our Primal
Five Framework, which focuses on five

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foundational areas that quietly shape how
we show up every day: sleep, sunlight,

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movement, connection, and what we consume.

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His work centers on a
simple but powerful idea.

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Most people are not broken.

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They're depleted.

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And for dads trying to build meaningful
work while staying present at home, I

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think that idea hits really close to home.

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Matt.

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Welcome to Gap to Gig.

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I'm really happy you're here today.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Matt: Yeah, thanks for having me.

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Look forward to it.

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Michael: My pleasure.

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Me too.

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So I wanna start with this idea that most
people aren't broken, but rather depleted.

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: And when a dad says, like, I just
can't find balance right now, what do you

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hear that he might not be saying out loud?

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Matt: Well, I think at the most
basic level, my concern is, is

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he taking care of the basics?

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Is he taking care of the
things that we're made for?

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I think a lot of times these
are things in our busy lives.

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We prioritize family and, and trying
to be there for them that I think

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often we, we look at these basics
as negotiable when they're not.

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Michael: Can you gimme an example of
what one of these basics would, would be?

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Matt: I think for most of us, the most
the most common basic would be our sleep.

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I think, so often sleep is
something we'll catch up on, or

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sleep is almost a convenience.

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Sometimes people talk about it almost
as, as something that's a rite of

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passage that we, how little sleep we got.

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It can almost seem like it's merit
that we, we hardly slept last night

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or we were so busy doing things.

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So, I think sleep is probably
the one I hear most frequently.

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Michael: Sure.

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That makes sense.

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I know you talk a lot about like
things being a capacity problem, not

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a time problem, and I imagine sleep
would be part of that capacity issue

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of making sure you have the capacity
to sleep or the time to sleep.

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: Can you, for a dad
that's tired, can you unpack

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like at the end of the long day,

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: what would, what should we
recognize in terms of the capacity

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issues that we're cha-, we're challenged
with where we kind of just say, oh,

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I just don't have time for that.

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Like, I don't have time for sleep.

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What is really, what
should I be unpacking here?

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Matt: Well, I think it's, it's
about trying to figure out

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what, what the priorities are.

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I think that, oftentimes, you
know, I don't have time for it.

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I think that it's the most
basic of needs that we have.

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I think that, and, and I know I can speak
for myself raising four boys, I know

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that oftentimes the very way that you
want to be with them is really dependent

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on how well we attend to these things.

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And, and just to kind of take a, a step
back, I often find that if I understand

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the concept or the idea, then it can,
it can help me, and, and maybe others as

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well, but the idea, the reason for calling
it Our Primal Five is we live in a time

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that just doesn't match our biology.

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We live in a time, we think about
our ancestors and our body ca-,

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bodies came to be what they are,
these are things that were required.

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These are things the body was
made to do for survival and such.

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We now live at a time with technology,
with everything that's available to

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us, where these things have to be
intentional choices that we make.

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We have to prioritize these things, but
our bodies remain the same, so we have

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the same mechanics, and it's whether we're
gonna take care of those things or not.

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And if we don't, logically,
we're going to be worse for it.

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And so a lot of times when I, when I think
about, you know, how do I do this, how do

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I do that, these are things that really
need to be a priority for us to be able

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to function at the best level that we can.

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And so, you know, to the tired dad, I
think a lot of times, you know, a lot of

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times we say we don't have time, but we're
really not doing things that entire time.

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You know, maybe it is that extra time
on a phone, and, and I know I have

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made that the statement of, well,
it's my only downtime of the day.

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It's the only time I can do these things.

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I get it.

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I've been there many times, but I think
that recognizing how much better I'm gonna

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be, if I can consistently prioritize,
we're talking about sleep right now.

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And that's an enormous one.

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But if I can prioritize that, I'm
gonna be better for the rest of things.

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Michael: Right.

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Absolutely.

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And I, I think there's ways to
recapture, per se, your time, right?

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Like, yes, I think, we all need
downtime, right, but like you

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said, like we might catch ourselves
scrolling on our phones for too long.

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But even in a typical day, if you were to
take inventory of how you spend your time,

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: I think you would find
for most people, or most dads,

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that there are distractions.

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There are things that pull you away
from what your intention was to do

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then depletes your capacity because
now you've spent energy on things

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that aren't bringing you energy or
getting you to the point where you

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can rest and restore and do the things
that you need to do for yourself.

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Get sun, get sunlight, like is
was one of your, your Primal Five,

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: And, I think, like, I, I love
this idea of hearkening back to where

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our ancestors came in terms of what
is important to ourselves because in

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this day and age with things being
online and we're constantly looking

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at our devices on social media.

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We're constantly sharing things
and it seems like we're always in

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communication, always doing something.

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Everything is more sped up today than
it was even 20 years ago, I think and,

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to slow ourselves, figure out a way to
slow ourselves down a little bit to make

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sure we take care of ourselves 'cause
I think, I'm understanding what you're

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saying correctly, we have to take care of
ourselves in order to do the other things

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that we wanna take care of, including
taking care of our family, including

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doing work that means something to us,
doing the things we wanna do day to day.

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You can spend all your energy doing one
of those things, but if you don't take

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care of yourself, you're only gonna
have so much energy to expend, right?

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Matt: Absolutely.

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Absolutely, and I think that
you could go really far with

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what you have just described.

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I think that there is, in the day
to day, taking care of ourselves

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in these ways and prioritizing it.

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I think that you can look at
our longevity and our health.

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I think, being a psychologist, one of
the things that I look at a great deal is

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how it affects our emotional functioning.

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And this really came about through
clinical work and seeing so

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frequently how deficient these are.

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And so they're so simple in a, in a sense.

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They're simple in, in idea.

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In application, the numbers tell
us it's, it's quite different.

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And so I think that, you know, it, it,
it, the effects are just incredible when

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you look at the research and you look
at what, what it, not only what it does

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to us, but I think so often what we're
accustomed to, I think that's a lot of

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times what makes these things difficult.

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We know them, but we're also so used
to being sleep deprived, you know?

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Michael: Yeah.

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Matt: We're so used to, you know, maybe
grogginess and just using caffeine

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and things like that to supplement us.

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I think we're so accustomed to bad food.

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Michael: Yep.

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Matt: You know, so much that it's
our normal, and we're, the only thing

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we can compare our experience to is
what we've experienced previously.

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And so I think it's normal, and we
don't even realize the depletion.

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Michael: Right.

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Are we taking shortcuts?

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Is that what we're doing here?

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Like, when we do take, drink an extra
cup of coffee or we, you know, drink

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something with more caffeine in it or
take a supplement, like, is that just

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a temporary shortcut or are we trying,
should we be looking at this not just

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day to day, but like the longer term
compounding effects of what we're doing?

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Like, is caffeine great
for us in the long run?

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Or do, you know, do we need
more sunlight every day?

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Does that help us become better people?

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Matt: Well, I, I think that

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I hesitate sometimes I, because I
don't, I think it can so easily come

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off as, as kind of judgy and critical.

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And, I think, that realistically,
looking at us as humans, we're

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wired for the short term.

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You know, maximize pleasure, minimize
pain, and we live in a world where

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there are so many short term options.

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So, again, hearkening back to our
ancestors, they did not need to make

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so many choices that we have to make.

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We have to be so much more intentional
about these things because there's

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always something that can give us a
crutch, can get us by in the moment.

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We can recognize that something's
important, but it's tough to apply

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it because we're getting distracted.

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We're getting focused
on this thing this day.

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And so I think that one of the things
that's so important is, is the recognition

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that this, this isn't laziness.

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That's it's, it is challenging
to do these things.

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We have to be, you know,
really focused on them.

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And I think the other thing is we
have to stack these things because

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when we start stacking and when
we create a habit, that's when we

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realize what we were missing before.

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That's when we realize how much different
things can be by taking care of these.

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Michael: And I think you, you're kind of
already alluding to this, but I'm curious,

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a lot of, many guys that I talk to, and
not everybody, but they feel like they're

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always falling short, whether it's at
home or at work, typically at home, but

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they, on the outside, they seem high
functioning, they seem responsible, right?

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I see them at the events for their
kids or I, they tell me about what

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they've been up to and they, seems
like they're doing a lot, but they

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still feel like they're falling short.

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Is that, why do you think that is?

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Is that just because of some of
these short-term, so much, so many

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different decisions we have to make
every day that we just kind of go

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making these short-term decisions
or is there something else to it?

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Matt: I think there's a lot to that.

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I think there's a lot to that.

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I, I do think that we're more likely
to have negative emotions, and I,

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I mean, I know that from, from what
we know from the research, but we're

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certainly more likely to have more
negative and painful emotions and, and

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have a harder time regulating those
emotions when, when we're depleted, when

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we're not taking care of these things.

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But I also think that just from
the human perspective, we value

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this role as a father so much.

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We want so much to do it
as well as is possible.

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And then I think there's
that comparison effect.

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I think that we see what we're
hearing from others or what we're

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seeing that, you know, others'
kids have opportunities, this, you

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know, for these different things.

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And, you know, it's just like most
things, when we're around other people,

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we tend to believe what people present.

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You know, we all are trying
to put, put forth our best.

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And I think we tend to believe others.

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And then we're gonna feel, you know,
deficient, inadequate and what have you.

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Michael: Right, I'm curious, what does
depletion actually look like in real life?

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Not necessarily the clinical definition of

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Matt: Right.

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Michael: it, but like how does
it show up in day-to-day moments?

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Matt: I think it can show
up really in any variety.

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And maybe I'm a bias, this is
a bias because it's something

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I've noticed within myself.

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I've noticed irritability more.

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I've noticed that when my body is
not where it needs to be, that minor

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inconveniences are more irritating.

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And, you know, that's that negative
feedback loop because we're irritable.

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We don't want to be irritable
with our families or friends.

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We don't want to be irritable.

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And then that makes us feel worse about it
and, and, you know, then we're trying to

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make up for it, or we're, you know, just
being self-critical and things like that.

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So, you know, I, I think that
that irritability handling the

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feelings that we're having.

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You know, those times where we look
back at it and we feel bad 'cause we

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overreacted to something, and we realize
that really wasn't that big of a deal,

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you know, that my son or my daughter did.

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I think that is, that is certainly
one of the signs of depletion.

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Michael: Interesting.

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I, I'm kind of processing what
you're saying in real time, and

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I'm wondering, could anxiety also
be a way that depletion shows up?

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Matt: Oh,

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Michael: Or is that
something totally separate?

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Matt: No, undoubtedly, undoubtedly.

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Anxiety, for example, exercise, movement,
an amazing anxiety management technique.

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Such a release of energy.

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It's incredibly helpful in that regard.

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Michael: Sure.

00:14:49.231 --> 00:14:51.681
Matt: You know, when we're talking
about the depletion, we talk about

00:14:51.921 --> 00:14:54.231
consumption and our fuel sources.

00:14:54.231 --> 00:14:59.991
I think that when we're taking in, like
one of the things in, in consumption

00:14:59.991 --> 00:15:05.631
as, as I'm putting it forward and, or
trying to encourage on is the news.

00:15:05.961 --> 00:15:10.221
Well, if I get caught up in that, again,
it's something humans are not made

00:15:10.221 --> 00:15:12.831
for to have all of this information.

00:15:13.191 --> 00:15:16.101
Well, that's gonna, that's
gonna raise my anxiety.

00:15:16.101 --> 00:15:18.771
That's going to affect it a great deal.

00:15:19.071 --> 00:15:23.901
So, all of these things certainly can have
a, a pretty profound impact on anxiety.

00:15:25.206 --> 00:15:30.726
Michael: Absolutely, and do you think
that it kind of snowballs a bit where

00:15:31.536 --> 00:15:37.101
the more you get depleted, the more
you, for you, it becomes irritability.

00:15:37.101 --> 00:15:39.981
For somebody else, it might be anxiety,
maybe for somebody else, it's lethargy.

00:15:40.131 --> 00:15:42.681
It could be a lot, you know,
many different things, if

00:15:42.681 --> 00:15:43.551
I'm understanding correctly.

00:15:44.211 --> 00:15:47.391
Does that kind of, then you start to get
into this tailspin of like, okay, now I'm

00:15:47.391 --> 00:15:51.051
more irritable, so I react differently,
and that just makes it worse, which

00:15:51.051 --> 00:15:55.911
then depletes me more, which then causes
my irritability to go even higher.

00:15:55.911 --> 00:16:01.401
And is that just sort of like a, a cycle,
it's difficult to break or is it just

00:16:02.211 --> 00:16:03.711
it happens and you move on kind of?

00:16:04.356 --> 00:16:06.036
Matt: I definitely think it's a cycle.

00:16:06.036 --> 00:16:10.746
I definitely think that we try
to make up for it in the moment.

00:16:10.896 --> 00:16:12.876
You mentioned the caffeine, right?

00:16:13.716 --> 00:16:16.146
Of course, all of us are gonna
have some caffeine or most all of

00:16:16.146 --> 00:16:17.766
us are gonna have some caffeine.

00:16:18.336 --> 00:16:22.266
But when we're really using that, I mean,
just think about that as an example.

00:16:22.536 --> 00:16:24.666
I'm using caffeine to try to stay alert.

00:16:24.996 --> 00:16:26.736
I'm using it throughout the day.

00:16:27.006 --> 00:16:29.946
Well, what is that caffeine gonna do
when I'm using it throughout the day?

00:16:29.946 --> 00:16:33.096
Yeah, it's gonna give me that
30 second, 30 minute, I'm sorry,

00:16:33.186 --> 00:16:35.736
boost, and then it's gonna fade.

00:16:35.976 --> 00:16:38.826
But then I'm drinking
caffeine into the afternoon.

00:16:39.891 --> 00:16:41.631
Now, what am I putting in jeopardy?

00:16:41.721 --> 00:16:43.401
Falling asleep that night.

00:16:43.701 --> 00:16:48.051
And, so, I'm gonna be more fatigued
the next day again because of this.

00:16:48.051 --> 00:16:49.761
And so it feeds itself.

00:16:50.571 --> 00:16:51.321
Absolutely.

00:16:51.321 --> 00:16:54.801
And, of course, I think the response
to that would be, well then what do

00:16:54.801 --> 00:16:56.841
I do in that, you know, for that day?

00:16:57.171 --> 00:16:59.541
You know, am I just supposed
to be tired the whole day?

00:17:00.471 --> 00:17:03.051
And some of that's a yes.

00:17:03.801 --> 00:17:06.711
I also think it's really about
what we know about caffeine.

00:17:06.711 --> 00:17:08.901
You know, the general rule
is cut it off at noon,

00:17:10.221 --> 00:17:10.371
Michael: Yep.

00:17:10.461 --> 00:17:12.741
Matt: you know, to help ourselves
with that sleep that night.

00:17:14.046 --> 00:17:14.376
Michael: Right.

00:17:15.606 --> 00:17:16.806
It's so interesting.

00:17:16.806 --> 00:17:25.896
So, you've mentioned that patience
and presence are like biological

00:17:25.896 --> 00:17:27.606
states before they're mindsets.

00:17:28.956 --> 00:17:33.456
It's really interesting to me that
that can be, and I'm starting, it's

00:17:33.456 --> 00:17:34.446
starting to make sense to me now.

00:17:34.446 --> 00:17:37.366
Like, I mean, you told me this before, but
now I'm trying to, like, with what you're

00:17:37.366 --> 00:17:41.026
telling me now, it's like, oh, it's now,
maybe it makes a little bit of sense.

00:17:41.366 --> 00:17:43.986
What does that really
mean though, in practice?

00:17:44.766 --> 00:17:49.236
Matt: Well, I think that we're gonna
have more patience the more grounded

00:17:49.236 --> 00:17:52.086
we are in, in what, what we're doing.

00:17:52.086 --> 00:17:56.946
We're gonna, we're gonna be able to
have so much more perspective on things.

00:17:58.266 --> 00:18:02.466
We're very likely gonna be living in a way
that kind of fits more with what we think

00:18:02.466 --> 00:18:07.416
is, is right and healthy and a clear,
you know, the clearer the conscience,

00:18:07.656 --> 00:18:09.696
the more perspective that we can have.

00:18:10.626 --> 00:18:12.426
It doesn't become so clouded.

00:18:12.426 --> 00:18:15.906
And so when we can take care
of these things and when we're

00:18:15.906 --> 00:18:22.056
feeling healthy, you know, feeling
healthy has a profound impact on

00:18:22.056 --> 00:18:25.536
being present, on being available.

00:18:25.536 --> 00:18:29.911
When we're not worrying about some
deficiency or some difficulty that

00:18:29.916 --> 00:18:33.756
we're experiencing in this regard, it's
much easier to be present for others.

00:18:34.616 --> 00:18:35.726
Michael: Right, right.

00:18:36.386 --> 00:18:42.186
And so this idea of, like, to get to
the point where we can be present and

00:18:42.336 --> 00:18:49.596
we do have patience, like, there is, it
is a biological state to some degree,

00:18:49.596 --> 00:18:51.186
or a chemical state to some degree.

00:18:51.186 --> 00:18:54.726
It's not just like, okay, today
I'm gonna be more patient, right?

00:18:54.726 --> 00:18:59.376
Like, there is things that, and I suppose
that's what the Primal Five is about, is

00:18:59.376 --> 00:19:06.186
about boosting up those, those different
elements to allow yourself to be more

00:19:06.186 --> 00:19:09.906
present, to allow yourself to be more
patient by taking care of the things that

00:19:09.906 --> 00:19:14.646
would normally drain you and prevent you
from, from being present, being active.

00:19:15.441 --> 00:19:15.936
Matt: And I don't even think that...

00:19:15.936 --> 00:19:16.486
Michael: Is that a fair assumption?

00:19:16.656 --> 00:19:18.951
Matt: Yeah, I don't even think
it has to be as intentional.

00:19:18.951 --> 00:19:20.481
I think it's a byproduct.

00:19:21.051 --> 00:19:24.111
And so I don't even think it's
something where we have to say, well,

00:19:24.111 --> 00:19:25.611
I'm gonna be more patient today.

00:19:27.006 --> 00:19:32.211
I, I think a lot of times we just have
the resources available to do just that.

00:19:32.211 --> 00:19:36.261
I think it, in some ways, it just becomes
more of a natural thing rather than

00:19:36.531 --> 00:19:38.541
having to tell ourselves to do that.

00:19:39.441 --> 00:19:42.921
And, and I think it just,
it just comes easier to us.

00:19:42.921 --> 00:19:47.871
It comes easier to handle something
that may otherwise be anxiety provoking.

00:19:48.351 --> 00:19:52.071
I think that all of the sudden
we're, we're again kind of grounded.

00:19:52.101 --> 00:19:58.881
We have more of our facilities to
take care of things rather than we're

00:19:58.881 --> 00:20:01.791
playing from behind all the time
'cause that's really what depletion

00:20:01.791 --> 00:20:03.261
is, is we're playing from behind.

00:20:03.261 --> 00:20:06.111
We're trying to catch up, and
that's when we're gonna use those

00:20:06.111 --> 00:20:09.531
short-term techniques is when
we're just trying to play catch up.

00:20:10.701 --> 00:20:10.971
Michael: Right.

00:20:11.331 --> 00:20:12.231
No, that makes sense.

00:20:12.291 --> 00:20:18.891
So, I want to walk through your Primal
Five framework, 'cause we've kind

00:20:18.891 --> 00:20:21.501
of danced around it a little bit,
or at least on the surface of it.

00:20:21.741 --> 00:20:24.681
I wanna dig a little bit deeper because
I, it's so interesting to me and I

00:20:24.681 --> 00:20:29.871
think that even if, you know, you kind
of mentioned this earlier of like, even

00:20:29.871 --> 00:20:35.811
if we just focus on one thing, right,
like, just as a starting point to start

00:20:35.811 --> 00:20:41.571
to prevent some of this depletion or
to replenish our batteries I think it,

00:20:41.571 --> 00:20:45.111
it'll be, it's really interesting to
look at what these five things are 'cause

00:20:45.441 --> 00:20:49.971
I know personally, like, I'll admit, I
don't think about all these every day.

00:20:50.166 --> 00:20:52.131
I, I probably could use a
lot more sunlight, right?

00:20:52.131 --> 00:20:56.151
I spend way too much time in front
of my computer at my desk, right?

00:20:56.151 --> 00:20:59.511
And so, but before we get to
sunlight, let's start with sleep.

00:20:59.736 --> 00:20:59.946
Matt: Yeah.

00:21:00.021 --> 00:21:05.931
Michael: What is a realistic shift that a
dad who's really busy right now can make

00:21:06.401 --> 00:21:08.421
that actually would move the needle here?

00:21:09.726 --> 00:21:12.636
Matt: I think that one of the
shifts, you know, I think, I

00:21:12.636 --> 00:21:14.076
think we know a lot of them.

00:21:15.006 --> 00:21:21.666
I think that we know that, you know,
having a consistent bedtime, having

00:21:21.666 --> 00:21:27.606
a consistent routine for 30 minutes
or an hour before bed is important.

00:21:27.846 --> 00:21:30.426
We mentioned the caffeine
consumption earlier.

00:21:31.026 --> 00:21:34.386
You know, limiting these kind
of things, limiting screens

00:21:34.386 --> 00:21:35.676
before bed, these kind of things.

00:21:35.976 --> 00:21:40.746
One of the things that I think is
lesser appreciated but often very, very

00:21:40.746 --> 00:21:43.266
important, has to do with waking time.

00:21:43.656 --> 00:21:50.346
I think oftentimes if we can get
consistency there, it starts setting us up

00:21:50.346 --> 00:21:52.596
because sleep is all about conditioning.

00:21:52.956 --> 00:21:56.496
It's all about loading into the
daily, the circadian rhythm.

00:21:56.946 --> 00:22:01.386
And so the more, that's why the falling
asleep part is, you know, trying to find

00:22:01.386 --> 00:22:04.356
that time is that it's just our body.

00:22:04.476 --> 00:22:05.556
It just adapts.

00:22:05.556 --> 00:22:08.526
It becomes condition that
this is, this is bedtime.

00:22:08.796 --> 00:22:12.756
I had a friend one time or a
old friend of mine, we would

00:22:12.756 --> 00:22:13.896
be sitting there hanging out.

00:22:13.896 --> 00:22:16.236
It would be a bunch of couples
hanging out and things like that.

00:22:16.506 --> 00:22:21.006
When the clock hit 11, it didn't matter
what we were doing, he was asleep.

00:22:21.186 --> 00:22:26.526
I mean, he had a routine, maybe too
much of a routine really, but it really,

00:22:26.526 --> 00:22:29.346
his circadian rhythm was locked in.

00:22:30.336 --> 00:22:32.736
But, and, and of course
we're not gonna get that way.

00:22:32.736 --> 00:22:33.516
That's pretty rare.

00:22:33.516 --> 00:22:34.806
But, but that's the idea.

00:22:34.806 --> 00:22:39.921
And wake time is, is just, it, it's the
same thing as, as the time we go to bed.

00:22:41.991 --> 00:22:45.321
Michael: I love that, how we always
talk about, we talk about sleep.

00:22:45.321 --> 00:22:48.831
It seems like the conversation
is always around going to sleep.

00:22:49.011 --> 00:22:49.311
Matt: Right.

00:22:49.941 --> 00:22:53.451
Michael: We never think about when is
the right time to wake up and what are

00:22:53.451 --> 00:22:56.751
like the healthy habits around waking up.

00:22:57.351 --> 00:23:02.331
And I imagine it's different for each
person, but finding where your, what

00:23:02.331 --> 00:23:03.621
the right wake-up time is for you.

00:23:03.621 --> 00:23:08.811
It's part of that element of consistency
that you need for healthy sleep, right,

00:23:08.991 --> 00:23:09.261
Matt: Right.

00:23:09.631 --> 00:23:10.821
Michael: Of getting the
right amount of sleep.

00:23:11.061 --> 00:23:13.441
Yeah, if you go to bed
on time, that helps.

00:23:13.731 --> 00:23:17.991
You also have to wake up on time and
if you, you know, whether you wake

00:23:17.991 --> 00:23:21.501
up too early or too late, like, as
you said, it can mess with your, your

00:23:21.501 --> 00:23:23.671
circadian rhythms or, or what have you.

00:23:23.671 --> 00:23:27.696
So, it's really interesting to, you've
kind of just flipped the, the lens

00:23:27.696 --> 00:23:30.036
for me of, I always think about like,
what time should I be going to sleep?

00:23:30.036 --> 00:23:32.946
Really, I'd also be thinking
about what time do I get up and

00:23:32.946 --> 00:23:34.056
how do I do that consistently?

00:23:34.356 --> 00:23:39.006
Matt: Because oftentimes when we're
working on sleep, one of the things that

00:23:39.006 --> 00:23:42.876
we're trying to do is, is to address
the, the compensatory techniques.

00:23:42.876 --> 00:23:49.626
So, that, that's things like sleeping
in, you know, really late, caffeine,

00:23:50.646 --> 00:23:53.196
naps during the day, things like that.

00:23:53.676 --> 00:23:57.786
Those are things that kind of
make bad sleep at night more, you

00:23:57.786 --> 00:23:59.106
know, better in the short term.

00:23:59.106 --> 00:24:03.726
Now our bodies still need what they need,
but we can make it through the day better.

00:24:04.746 --> 00:24:07.656
But we're, you know, we're
basically kicking the can down the

00:24:07.656 --> 00:24:10.746
road is that, that's gonna need
to be addressed at some point.

00:24:11.106 --> 00:24:15.006
And, and, right, to, to what
we're talking about wake time.

00:24:15.036 --> 00:24:17.226
Having a consistent
wake time is important.

00:24:17.676 --> 00:24:21.246
I think, though, this also reminds
me of something that I think can

00:24:21.246 --> 00:24:25.056
be a roadblock for people, is the
idea that perfection is needed.

00:24:25.416 --> 00:24:26.016
It's not.

00:24:26.586 --> 00:24:27.816
It's not needed.

00:24:28.296 --> 00:24:28.506
Michael: Yeah.

00:24:28.536 --> 00:24:31.746
Matt: I think it keeps people away
from, from working at these things.

00:24:31.956 --> 00:24:33.306
We're looking for improvement.

00:24:33.756 --> 00:24:36.156
We are looking for
improvement, that is the goal.

00:24:36.186 --> 00:24:40.836
Perfection's not even possible, so why
make it something that we think on is

00:24:40.836 --> 00:24:42.696
that we're just trying to improve it.

00:24:42.936 --> 00:24:47.526
It doesn't need to be that at 6:30 every
morning, you know, every day of the week

00:24:47.526 --> 00:24:51.786
that I'm up, but we're just trying to
trend more into something that kind of

00:24:51.786 --> 00:24:53.616
fits with what our bodies are made for.

00:24:54.876 --> 00:24:55.206
Michael: Right.

00:24:56.106 --> 00:24:56.646
That makes sense.

00:24:56.646 --> 00:25:01.416
So, let's move on to sunlight, 'cause
like I said, that's one that when

00:25:01.416 --> 00:25:06.066
I was first studying up on Primal
Five, I'm like, yeah, I, I don't

00:25:06.066 --> 00:25:10.026
think about this one nearly enough
or really at all, to be honest.

00:25:10.026 --> 00:25:11.526
Like, I enjoy getting
outside sometimes, but

00:25:13.671 --> 00:25:16.641
many times I'm just like, yeah,
it's, I've got something to do here.

00:25:16.641 --> 00:25:17.301
It's inside.

00:25:17.721 --> 00:25:18.111
I'll do it.

00:25:18.111 --> 00:25:23.421
And, you know, especially, you know,
between, depending on where you live,

00:25:23.451 --> 00:25:26.931
you know, your days might be shorter,
some, sometime of the year, and it's

00:25:26.931 --> 00:25:28.281
gonna be longer, other times of the year.

00:25:28.341 --> 00:25:32.631
And, you know, we're getting to the
point where when most people listen

00:25:32.631 --> 00:25:38.901
to this episode, it's going to be
the longest days of the year where

00:25:38.901 --> 00:25:40.401
they are, if they're in the US.

00:25:40.911 --> 00:25:47.541
And so, why does it, why does sunlight
really matter more than people think?

00:25:47.601 --> 00:25:52.371
And whether the day is long, of the day
is short, how can we, especially as dads,

00:25:52.371 --> 00:25:54.891
fit that into our normal, our typical day?

00:25:55.971 --> 00:25:56.661
Matt: Well, absolutely.

00:25:56.751 --> 00:25:58.281
Sunlight is huge for mood.

00:25:59.301 --> 00:26:02.271
You know, it's a, it's,
it's, it's a mood enhancer.

00:26:02.271 --> 00:26:04.281
It, it really helps us.

00:26:04.476 --> 00:26:09.051
Again, if you think, our ancestors didn't
have climate controlled environments.

00:26:09.351 --> 00:26:11.721
They were outside all the time.

00:26:12.051 --> 00:26:15.531
And so, you know, obviously our
bodies are gonna be made for that.

00:26:15.861 --> 00:26:19.101
And it's funny you mention that
as far as it's not something

00:26:19.101 --> 00:26:20.091
that we think all the time.

00:26:20.451 --> 00:26:25.656
When I was going, you know, through these
things and I was doing some research

00:26:25.656 --> 00:26:27.456
and, and looking at what was out there.

00:26:27.456 --> 00:26:30.936
I was even surprised, you know,
even though I preach it all the

00:26:30.936 --> 00:26:36.216
time, basically, when I was looking
at just how much of a, of a mood

00:26:36.216 --> 00:26:38.346
enhancer getting outside is.

00:26:39.366 --> 00:26:44.796
You asked about, you know, for a dad,
what would be a good thing to start with?

00:26:45.576 --> 00:26:46.926
It's pretty straightforward.

00:26:47.106 --> 00:26:48.546
Get outside in the morning.

00:26:49.416 --> 00:26:51.456
You know, when you're
having your cup of coffee.

00:26:52.206 --> 00:26:55.656
You know, when you are, you know,
reading whatever you're gonna look

00:26:55.656 --> 00:26:57.456
at, maybe in the morning to get going.

00:26:57.726 --> 00:26:58.776
Do it on the porch.

00:26:59.196 --> 00:27:04.116
You know, do it, do it just outside to get
it, because morning sunlight is the ideal.

00:27:04.896 --> 00:27:07.836
You know, 15, 30 minutes
morning sunlight is gold.

00:27:08.226 --> 00:27:11.376
It's not only gold because
it's kind of setting us up.

00:27:11.376 --> 00:27:14.226
It's that mood enhancement
earlier, but it's actually a

00:27:14.226 --> 00:27:16.206
sleep management technique.

00:27:16.806 --> 00:27:20.136
Getting back to the circadian
rhythm is it's locking in that

00:27:20.136 --> 00:27:21.436
at that time it's daytime.

00:27:22.566 --> 00:27:27.096
And so that getting it in the morning
really helps our body to kind of

00:27:27.096 --> 00:27:31.356
get locked in on these things when
all we have is artificial light.

00:27:32.496 --> 00:27:34.266
It's not telling our body this.

00:27:34.566 --> 00:27:36.366
And so it's also helpful for that.

00:27:36.366 --> 00:27:39.936
And it's just as simple as, you know,
again, doing whatever we're gonna do

00:27:39.936 --> 00:27:45.636
anyway in the morning, but just doing
it outside, sitting on a, you know, on

00:27:45.636 --> 00:27:47.766
a porch, on a patio, whatever it is.

00:27:48.921 --> 00:27:49.131
Michael: Yeah.

00:27:50.691 --> 00:27:55.341
Yeah, I love that the idea of just working
it into your existing routine, right?

00:27:55.341 --> 00:27:59.571
Because I think, at least for me, I'll
overthink it like, okay, I need to get

00:27:59.571 --> 00:28:04.311
outside more, so now I gotta build in
time to do that, and what am I gonna do

00:28:04.311 --> 00:28:05.421
at that time and how am I gonna do this?

00:28:05.421 --> 00:28:10.176
It's like, I could just, whatever I'm
already doing, just shift it outside,

00:28:10.236 --> 00:28:11.826
whether permitting, shift it outside,

00:28:11.971 --> 00:28:12.321
Matt: Right.

00:28:12.406 --> 00:28:15.186
Michael: and, and get some
of that sunlight exposure.

00:28:15.186 --> 00:28:18.696
And even that, you know, I
think ideally for a lot of dads,

00:28:18.696 --> 00:28:20.356
it's doing it with the kids.

00:28:20.386 --> 00:28:20.941
Doing it with the family, right?

00:28:20.991 --> 00:28:21.681
Matt: Sure.

00:28:21.681 --> 00:28:21.741
Yeah.

00:28:22.566 --> 00:28:24.936
Michael: Whatever, whatever time
you're going to spend with them.

00:28:25.236 --> 00:28:28.476
Can we do that outside, and we can all
get a little bit of sunlight, right?

00:28:28.791 --> 00:28:29.181
Matt: Perhaps.

00:28:29.266 --> 00:28:33.126
Michael: It doesn't have to be a solo
adventure every time we, we wanna go

00:28:33.126 --> 00:28:36.456
outside and, and probably a lot of
dads are already doing that, right?

00:28:36.456 --> 00:28:39.246
They're, they're playing with
their kids in the yard or they're

00:28:39.246 --> 00:28:42.316
taking 'em to the park, or
they're just doing things outside.

00:28:42.426 --> 00:28:45.516
They're going for walks,
whatever, whatever it may be.

00:28:46.671 --> 00:28:50.494
Matt: And I think that also speaks to
something else that I think is important

00:28:50.974 --> 00:28:56.044
and, and provides maybe a little
bit of context for, we don't have to

00:28:56.044 --> 00:28:58.174
spend all day focused on these things.

00:28:58.174 --> 00:29:01.744
Like, for example, you mentioned
spending time with the kids,

00:29:01.744 --> 00:29:03.034
going out and doing these things.

00:29:03.034 --> 00:29:03.964
Absolutely.

00:29:04.354 --> 00:29:07.054
But we can stack these things as well.

00:29:07.654 --> 00:29:11.644
I remember one person I worked with,
and what they did was, you know,

00:29:11.644 --> 00:29:15.184
they were, they were struggling in
these areas, so it was someone who'd

00:29:15.184 --> 00:29:16.984
played tennis when they were a kid.

00:29:17.414 --> 00:29:20.719
And so they went out and they kind
of, there's a, you know, group

00:29:20.719 --> 00:29:25.099
of guys that would play tennis,
you know, a time or two a week.

00:29:25.399 --> 00:29:28.099
Well, now they're outside,
they're moving their bodies

00:29:28.099 --> 00:29:29.389
and they're having connection.

00:29:29.389 --> 00:29:32.749
They're interacting with other
people, you know, so we're knocking

00:29:32.749 --> 00:29:35.749
several things out every morning
I go take my dogs for a walk.

00:29:36.679 --> 00:29:38.839
So I'm moving, I'm outside.

00:29:39.109 --> 00:29:42.739
So, we can stack things and that makes
'em, you know, a good bit easier to do.

00:29:44.304 --> 00:29:48.259
Michael: Yeah, I love that idea of you
can get your sunlight and you can get

00:29:48.259 --> 00:29:51.059
your movement, right, which is kind
of the next one I wanna move on to.

00:29:51.059 --> 00:29:52.429
And also connection.

00:29:52.429 --> 00:29:56.419
Like sometimes it's good, you
know, especially for busy parents,

00:29:56.589 --> 00:29:59.779
like, it's hard to get some of
that social connection sometimes.

00:29:59.779 --> 00:30:01.759
And, you know, there are
different ways to do that.

00:30:01.759 --> 00:30:06.109
And one of those ways could be joining
like a, if you're interested in sports,

00:30:06.109 --> 00:30:12.139
joining a local, you know, rec team for
softball outside or, you know, playing,

00:30:12.409 --> 00:30:16.579
you know, going to the pickleball courts
and, and playing pickleball with, with

00:30:16.579 --> 00:30:19.639
your friends or doing something, so
you get some of that social connection,

00:30:19.789 --> 00:30:23.329
also getting some exercise, some
movement in, and also doing that

00:30:23.929 --> 00:30:28.879
outdoors, so you're getting some of that
sunlight that we, tend to, to neglect

00:30:29.479 --> 00:30:29.749
Matt: Yeah.

00:30:29.769 --> 00:30:30.889
Michael: or don't think about as much.

00:30:31.159 --> 00:30:33.859
Matt: You know, and I also think that
one of the, one of the things I'm,

00:30:34.099 --> 00:30:39.619
I'm kind of on the twilight, you know,
part of my parenting meaning my oldest

00:30:39.619 --> 00:30:46.159
is 21, my youngest is 14 and I have
a, a 17 and a 20-year-old in between.

00:30:46.549 --> 00:30:50.869
And so, you know, I'm kind of at that
stage where, you know, they're either

00:30:50.869 --> 00:30:56.734
on their own doing college or, or you
know, my intelligence level has gone

00:30:56.734 --> 00:30:59.974
way down, you know, because they're
teenagers now and things like that.

00:31:00.334 --> 00:31:04.144
But one of the things that,
especially thinking back through

00:31:04.144 --> 00:31:09.994
it, I did this some, it's something
I wish I did more of was letting my

00:31:09.994 --> 00:31:12.844
kids see me do some of the sports.

00:31:12.844 --> 00:31:16.264
You know, I remember how much my kids
loved it coming out when I was playing

00:31:16.264 --> 00:31:21.034
church league basketball, you know, and
I think that it's a great thing to model,

00:31:21.034 --> 00:31:25.714
to give the example of that activity,
competitiveness, things like that.

00:31:25.714 --> 00:31:27.154
I think that's great for 'em.

00:31:27.154 --> 00:31:30.064
I think it sets a great example.

00:31:30.484 --> 00:31:35.854
I think it also can help them
create more of a lifelong love

00:31:35.854 --> 00:31:37.654
themselves of these things.

00:31:37.684 --> 00:31:41.284
And, and so I think it's great for
them, even if we, you know, feel like,

00:31:41.284 --> 00:31:44.524
well it's me playing basketball or
going, you know, golf or whatever,

00:31:44.914 --> 00:31:46.714
have 'em come with you, you know?

00:31:46.934 --> 00:31:47.014
Michael: Yep.

00:31:47.014 --> 00:31:47.104
Absolutely.

00:31:47.254 --> 00:31:50.104
Matt: Know a lot of guys
fishing and, you know, and, and

00:31:50.134 --> 00:31:51.604
hunting and different things.

00:31:51.604 --> 00:31:53.824
And it, it's just become a great bonding.

00:31:54.424 --> 00:31:55.954
Dang, everybody benefits.

00:31:57.049 --> 00:31:57.814
Michael: A hundred percent.

00:31:57.814 --> 00:31:58.714
I, I couldn't agree with you more.

00:31:58.714 --> 00:32:02.314
I was just doing that recently
with my kids of like, we went

00:32:02.314 --> 00:32:03.444
and played pickleball outside.

00:32:03.654 --> 00:32:03.834
It was just like

00:32:03.969 --> 00:32:04.304
Matt: Yeah, yeah.

00:32:04.414 --> 00:32:08.224
Michael: Alright, let's go do this, right,
and let's, it was a little bit of time

00:32:08.224 --> 00:32:12.724
outdoors, some fresh air, some movement,
hanging out, having some laughs, right?

00:32:12.754 --> 00:32:13.984
So there's some connection there, too.

00:32:13.984 --> 00:32:16.879
It was just like, but you don't
have to force it either, right?

00:32:16.879 --> 00:32:20.449
Like, you don't have to be like,
okay, from seven to eight every

00:32:20.719 --> 00:32:23.899
Monday, Wednesday, and Friday,
we're doing this outside, right?

00:32:23.929 --> 00:32:27.799
It can be a little bit
less formal than that.

00:32:27.809 --> 00:32:29.769
Matt: It can be spontaneous,
yeah, absolutely.

00:32:30.012 --> 00:32:30.232
Michael: Right.

00:32:30.722 --> 00:32:30.902
Right.

00:32:31.459 --> 00:32:33.559
Matt: It's awesome when
it can involve them.

00:32:33.559 --> 00:32:34.699
I don't think it has to.

00:32:35.089 --> 00:32:37.879
You know, I think it's, I think
it's good for them to see that we

00:32:37.879 --> 00:32:41.359
do different things, you know, and
that we have, you know, that we're

00:32:41.359 --> 00:32:45.469
humans that, you know, we do things
with friends and, and all of this.

00:32:45.469 --> 00:32:49.144
I think that kind of balance, I think
that, I think that sometimes that's

00:32:49.144 --> 00:32:52.864
the best thing that we can do is
not have all the focus be on them.

00:32:53.254 --> 00:32:57.994
I think it, it, it helps them have
a more realistic view of the world.

00:32:59.104 --> 00:32:59.374
Michael: Right.

00:32:59.379 --> 00:33:01.204
And gives 'em an opportunity
to explore at their own,

00:33:01.329 --> 00:33:01.419
Matt: Yeah.

00:33:01.419 --> 00:33:01.814
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:33:01.864 --> 00:33:03.424
Michael: at their own pace, right?

00:33:04.144 --> 00:33:06.954
As, as opposed to like what
we want them to, to do.

00:33:07.144 --> 00:33:07.504
Matt: Right.

00:33:08.074 --> 00:33:09.364
Michael: So, we've, we've talked
about moving into connection,

00:33:09.364 --> 00:33:14.139
but I'm curious, what is enough
movement actually look like?

00:33:15.274 --> 00:33:16.894
Matt: We really would love 30 minutes.

00:33:17.224 --> 00:33:19.804
We'd love 30 minutes overall of movement.

00:33:20.164 --> 00:33:21.274
That's what we're looking for.

00:33:21.274 --> 00:33:26.494
And I use the term movement, I actually
had a friend who is in exercise

00:33:26.494 --> 00:33:31.294
physiology and she was looking at the
workbook for me and one of her things

00:33:31.294 --> 00:33:36.634
that she, or one of the suggestions
that she provided for me was, why don't

00:33:36.634 --> 00:33:39.154
you move from exercise to movement?

00:33:39.184 --> 00:33:42.304
'Cause that's kind of what our
field has done because I think

00:33:42.334 --> 00:33:46.279
sometimes exercise people can,
you know, all sorts of different

00:33:46.279 --> 00:33:48.979
reactions to the idea of exercise.

00:33:49.099 --> 00:33:50.629
And that's not even really
what we're going for.

00:33:50.629 --> 00:33:51.559
Just move your body.

00:33:51.739 --> 00:33:53.569
It tells your body things are okay.

00:33:53.899 --> 00:34:00.679
It's helping again with that releasing
energy, so many helpful things for us

00:34:00.679 --> 00:34:03.229
physically and emotionally that occur.

00:34:03.529 --> 00:34:07.459
It also, I like movement 'cause I
think sometimes when people hear

00:34:07.459 --> 00:34:13.309
exercise, they think either what they
used to do, you know, like, you know,

00:34:14.299 --> 00:34:17.359
the amount of weight they could lift
or how far they could run or what

00:34:17.359 --> 00:34:19.279
sport, you know, and things like that.

00:34:19.609 --> 00:34:21.709
I think it, and that can feel daunting.

00:34:22.009 --> 00:34:27.709
I think it also, sometimes people think
of that in terms of some extreme workout

00:34:27.709 --> 00:34:29.929
regimen, you know, one of these gyms.

00:34:29.929 --> 00:34:31.279
And I think that stuff's cool.

00:34:31.279 --> 00:34:34.009
I think it's great if that's
somebody's thing, you know?

00:34:34.009 --> 00:34:34.729
Right on.

00:34:34.729 --> 00:34:38.029
But, but that's not what we,
that, that's not the requirement.

00:34:39.064 --> 00:34:41.464
Michael: Yeah, no, it
makes, makes total sense.

00:34:41.464 --> 00:34:42.664
I love the idea of movement.

00:34:42.724 --> 00:34:44.914
Like, I despise running.

00:34:44.914 --> 00:34:48.589
I think running is like, I just
don't like anything about running.

00:34:49.039 --> 00:34:49.369
Matt: Right.

00:34:50.009 --> 00:34:50.769
Michael: Nothing about it.

00:34:51.179 --> 00:34:54.679
It just, it pains me emotionally,
physically, whatever, like, it's

00:34:54.839 --> 00:34:58.639
just not my thing, but what I have
discovered in recent years is walking.

00:34:58.934 --> 00:34:59.224
Matt: Yeah.

00:34:59.229 --> 00:34:59.269
Yeah.

00:34:59.299 --> 00:35:03.649
Michael: Right, and like, not walking,
not necessarily casually walking, not

00:35:04.399 --> 00:35:07.309
speed walking like in the Olympics kind
of thing, but somewhere in between,

00:35:07.309 --> 00:35:10.609
right, of getting, breaking a sweat,
walking long enough at a decent enough

00:35:10.609 --> 00:35:15.829
speed, right, and that is, like, for
me, it gets me outside most of the year.

00:35:16.069 --> 00:35:18.379
I mean, when the weather isn't permit,
I have to use a treadmill or something,

00:35:18.379 --> 00:35:20.029
but I prefer to do it outside.

00:35:20.299 --> 00:35:23.839
So I'm getting a little bit of
sunlight, hopefully, and breaking a

00:35:23.839 --> 00:35:25.039
sweat, but it also clears my mind.

00:35:25.349 --> 00:35:25.669
Matt: Right.

00:35:25.839 --> 00:35:31.789
Michael: Right, and I always, yes,
physically my legs will get tired as the,

00:35:31.999 --> 00:35:33.889
as I approach typically the one hour mark.

00:35:34.609 --> 00:35:35.059
Matt: Oh, wow.

00:35:35.059 --> 00:35:35.419
An hour.

00:35:35.419 --> 00:35:35.749
That's good.

00:35:36.409 --> 00:35:41.119
Michael: Yeah, but I leave or I finish
that walk feeling more energized.

00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:44.869
I have more energy after the
walk than I do before the walk.

00:35:45.109 --> 00:35:47.839
That movement for me is
a replenishment, right?

00:35:48.259 --> 00:35:51.259
But it's walking, it's not,
I'm not doing anything crazy.

00:35:51.259 --> 00:35:52.219
I'm not gonna run a marathon.

00:35:52.219 --> 00:35:53.449
That's like my worst nightmare.

00:35:53.449 --> 00:35:58.459
I wouldn't run a 5K, I couldn't, oh,
that just like gives me the shivers.

00:35:58.459 --> 00:36:00.139
Like I, running is not,

00:36:00.414 --> 00:36:00.704
Matt: Yeah.

00:36:00.869 --> 00:36:01.599
Michael: not in my vocabulary.

00:36:01.599 --> 00:36:04.429
I, I don't like, I've done
it, I don't like it, right?

00:36:04.454 --> 00:36:04.744
Matt: Yeah.

00:36:04.879 --> 00:36:07.159
Michael: But I have discovered
a different form of movement

00:36:07.159 --> 00:36:08.779
and for me that's walking.

00:36:09.379 --> 00:36:11.629
And for somebody else, it could
be all kinds of things, right?

00:36:11.629 --> 00:36:15.889
It doesn't even have to be what we
would generally consider exercise.

00:36:15.919 --> 00:36:22.639
It could be gardening or something where
you're up and moving and, and moving

00:36:22.639 --> 00:36:25.729
from place to place or lifting things
and moving them, whatever it might be.

00:36:25.729 --> 00:36:26.569
I mean, there's a million ways,

00:36:26.594 --> 00:36:26.944
Matt: Right.

00:36:27.139 --> 00:36:28.789
Michael: I suppose, you
could, you could do movement.

00:36:30.529 --> 00:36:36.799
Matt: There are, and, you know, I think
of, you know, again, I'm, I'm, you know,

00:36:36.799 --> 00:36:39.949
I don't mean to beat this into the ground,
but again, think about our ancestors.

00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:42.589
You know, they were not running marathons.

00:36:42.829 --> 00:36:47.119
They were not lifting exceptionally
large amounts of weight on, you know,

00:36:47.269 --> 00:36:49.399
these metal objects and things like that.

00:36:49.399 --> 00:36:54.109
It's moving, it's doing the functional
things that are involved in daily

00:36:54.109 --> 00:36:56.839
life, and that's what we're going for.

00:36:57.169 --> 00:36:59.209
It is funny, though, your
feelings about running.

00:36:59.214 --> 00:37:03.349
I, I remember watching a comedian
and he said, I will start running the

00:37:03.349 --> 00:37:09.049
next time that I see someone jogging
with a really big smile on their face.

00:37:11.809 --> 00:37:13.194
So, that, that clicked with me.

00:37:13.294 --> 00:37:19.309
But I actually have, have seen some
things that walking you know, walking is

00:37:19.309 --> 00:37:22.519
every bit, if not better, than jogging.

00:37:23.209 --> 00:37:26.539
You know, I think that there are a lot of
benefits, you know, there's benefits to

00:37:26.539 --> 00:37:29.659
sprinting and and such in these things.

00:37:29.659 --> 00:37:34.399
But I think walking is really
an underrated physical activity.

00:37:35.564 --> 00:37:35.834
Michael: Yep.

00:37:36.554 --> 00:37:40.024
Yeah, I, I'm certainly preaching
the, the, the walking movement,

00:37:40.024 --> 00:37:41.824
but it might not be for everybody.

00:37:41.824 --> 00:37:42.724
I understand that, right?

00:37:42.724 --> 00:37:45.154
Just like running's not for me,
and it might be for somebody else.

00:37:45.244 --> 00:37:45.534
Matt: Sure.

00:37:45.814 --> 00:37:48.534
Michael: But, the, it's all to say,
it's just there's options, right?

00:37:48.714 --> 00:37:49.004
Matt: Yeah.

00:37:49.104 --> 00:37:53.214
Michael: We just have to take the
initiative to start moving, which

00:37:53.304 --> 00:37:54.454
sometimes is easier said than done.

00:37:54.739 --> 00:37:57.829
Matt: And it also could be
incorporated in the day, right?

00:37:58.069 --> 00:38:00.859
It doesn't have to be
a dedicated 30 minutes.

00:38:01.219 --> 00:38:05.239
You know, it could be, you know, I'm
taking opportunities within my day.

00:38:06.199 --> 00:38:06.349
You

00:38:06.424 --> 00:38:06.574
Michael: Yep.

00:38:06.759 --> 00:38:11.179
Matt: know I think that most of the
physiology folks would say it's great

00:38:11.179 --> 00:38:15.769
for those of us who have office jobs
that we're sitting in these comfortable

00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:20.029
chairs all day long just to get up
and take five minutes of opportunity

00:38:20.029 --> 00:38:21.559
to move around and do something.

00:38:21.799 --> 00:38:24.829
You know, obviously we've, most
all of us have heard the idea of

00:38:24.829 --> 00:38:28.339
take the stairs, you know, when you
know between that and the elevator.

00:38:28.339 --> 00:38:32.104
So there are these, these opportunities
where we can do it throughout our

00:38:32.104 --> 00:38:37.114
day and it doesn't need to be this
thing where we have to set aside, you

00:38:37.114 --> 00:38:39.334
know, 30 minutes to an hour to do it.

00:38:39.334 --> 00:38:41.879
Sometimes, it's just finding the
opportunities within our day.

00:38:43.084 --> 00:38:43.294
Michael: Right.

00:38:43.294 --> 00:38:47.854
And that's like going back to when we
say we don't have enough time in the day.

00:38:48.724 --> 00:38:50.914
Some, you know, that is a
way to find time, right?

00:38:51.064 --> 00:38:53.074
Find a small pocket here
or a small pocket there.

00:38:53.074 --> 00:38:54.424
You might be in between calls.

00:38:54.844 --> 00:38:59.494
You might have, you know, five
minutes before you're waiting for

00:38:59.494 --> 00:39:01.064
somebody to respond to your email.

00:39:01.124 --> 00:39:04.354
Like, that's maybe the time to
get up and move around, right?

00:39:04.714 --> 00:39:08.314
Go up and down the stairs or go outside
for a minute or two or a couple minutes

00:39:08.314 --> 00:39:12.054
and just start stacking those five
minutes here, five minutes there,

00:39:12.174 --> 00:39:12.544
Matt: Right.

00:39:12.664 --> 00:39:15.244
Michael: and you don't need a
half an hour after work to figure

00:39:15.244 --> 00:39:16.774
out when am I going to exercise.

00:39:16.774 --> 00:39:20.794
It's like, okay, you've got it spread
out throughout the day when time

00:39:20.794 --> 00:39:24.304
allows for it, and might, might not
be the exact same time every day.

00:39:24.364 --> 00:39:28.189
That's okay, right, but it's just the,
that you're starting to become, you're

00:39:28.189 --> 00:39:31.729
starting to incorporate movement into
those openings that you have, and then

00:39:31.729 --> 00:39:34.459
you don't have to worry about that,
finding that extra 30 minutes later.

00:39:34.789 --> 00:39:35.599
Matt: Absolutely.

00:39:35.959 --> 00:39:37.579
Yeah, I like the way that you said that.

00:39:37.579 --> 00:39:40.369
It really, it really is
something of just taking our

00:39:40.369 --> 00:39:42.049
opportunities when we can do it.

00:39:42.559 --> 00:39:47.749
And, you know, I think that, again, just
recognizing that's what we're made for.

00:39:48.229 --> 00:39:56.479
You know, we're made for this, and so,
we, exercise is, is for our emotional,

00:39:56.479 --> 00:40:01.219
for our physical health, and, and
even though we all love to have the

00:40:01.399 --> 00:40:06.289
six pack and, and you know, the great
physique, that's not really what we're,

00:40:06.589 --> 00:40:08.269
we're going, we're going for here.

00:40:08.269 --> 00:40:10.069
That's not success, so to speak.

00:40:10.549 --> 00:40:12.349
Success is that we're
taking care of ourselves.

00:40:13.279 --> 00:40:14.479
Michael: Yeah, absolutely.

00:40:14.839 --> 00:40:16.369
So, I wanted to talk about connection.

00:40:16.429 --> 00:40:18.379
We, we've touched on it a bit already,

00:40:18.559 --> 00:40:18.799
Matt: Yeah.

00:40:19.159 --> 00:40:22.189
Michael: Because for me,
I'm an introvert, right?

00:40:22.189 --> 00:40:27.639
So I get, some of my energy comes from
getting some time for myself, right?

00:40:27.749 --> 00:40:31.759
And I, you know, typically the,
the more social a setting is, the

00:40:31.759 --> 00:40:33.889
more energy it requires from me.

00:40:34.609 --> 00:40:38.929
What kind of connection actually
restores energy for most people

00:40:38.929 --> 00:40:40.939
versus just taking more of it?

00:40:42.444 --> 00:40:47.854
Matt: What this connection is
referring to, it is not quantity.

00:40:48.844 --> 00:40:50.899
It's not the number of people.

00:40:50.899 --> 00:40:56.479
It's, you know, as a fellow introvert,
you know, it really is not about

00:40:56.479 --> 00:40:59.689
having a, a large network at all.

00:40:59.689 --> 00:41:04.729
And, in fact, there's nothing wrong
with having a large network, but if we

00:41:04.729 --> 00:41:10.459
have that as our focus, we may be losing
the essential part of connection, which

00:41:10.459 --> 00:41:16.819
is something with another person where
the relationship is the end, right?

00:41:16.879 --> 00:41:19.699
The relationship is the reason.

00:41:20.569 --> 00:41:22.339
That person is the reason.

00:41:22.339 --> 00:41:25.489
It's not how beneficial this is to me.

00:41:25.489 --> 00:41:28.459
This isn't, you know, it's
not a means to an end.

00:41:28.459 --> 00:41:29.689
It is the end.

00:41:30.139 --> 00:41:36.499
And so, you know, that's the idea of this,
is that there's a, you know, shared caring

00:41:36.499 --> 00:41:38.869
that we have or concern for one another.

00:41:38.869 --> 00:41:42.319
Someone who actually will listen to
what we're talking about and vice

00:41:42.319 --> 00:41:46.459
versa, you know, 'cause it really
starts with what we can control.

00:41:46.699 --> 00:41:47.629
And so,

00:41:47.629 --> 00:41:47.979
Michael: Right.

00:41:48.319 --> 00:41:51.529
Matt: you know, and, and what we
can, you know, give and, and then,

00:41:51.529 --> 00:41:53.239
and then receive from others.

00:41:53.239 --> 00:41:53.359
But.

00:41:53.359 --> 00:41:56.479
Yeah, it's a connection of,
you know, I have my people.

00:41:56.479 --> 00:41:58.549
I have my tribe in this world.

00:41:58.549 --> 00:42:01.399
You know, the whole basis of
it is, is we have a tribe.

00:42:01.399 --> 00:42:02.729
We take care of one another.

00:42:03.289 --> 00:42:03.799
And so,

00:42:03.799 --> 00:42:04.069
Michael: Right.

00:42:04.069 --> 00:42:05.049
Matt: and we're tribal.

00:42:05.219 --> 00:42:06.469
We're tribal animals.

00:42:06.529 --> 00:42:09.619
And so it's trying to, you
know, to tap into that.

00:42:11.554 --> 00:42:14.704
Michael: I, I'm wondering, and again, I'm
kind of processing this in real time of

00:42:14.704 --> 00:42:21.984
like, does that sort of tribal connection,
I imagine brings a feeling of security?

00:42:22.159 --> 00:42:22.399
Matt: Oh, yeah.

00:42:22.504 --> 00:42:29.014
Michael: Um, right, which then I
imagine kind of helps replenish

00:42:29.194 --> 00:42:31.684
yourself as opposed to you deplete
'cause like, you know, you have this

00:42:31.684 --> 00:42:35.434
kind of fallback thing of like, I know
there's some people that care about

00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:35.949
Matt: Right.

00:42:36.244 --> 00:42:38.644
Michael: what I'm doing, what I'm
going through, and just like I'm

00:42:38.644 --> 00:42:43.114
gonna care for them, it's nice to
know I have this sort of thing to fall

00:42:43.114 --> 00:42:44.384
back, these people to fall back on.

00:42:44.384 --> 00:42:44.454
Is that it?

00:42:45.069 --> 00:42:45.809
Matt: 100%.

00:42:46.529 --> 00:42:46.809
Absolutely.

00:42:46.809 --> 00:42:48.004
We're not alone.

00:42:48.394 --> 00:42:52.624
And really, you know, the thing is,
there's, there's actually a white

00:42:52.624 --> 00:42:54.964
paper on the loneliness epidemic.

00:42:55.264 --> 00:42:56.824
This is a real problem.

00:42:56.914 --> 00:43:01.624
When I was going through, you know,
and looking at some AI, you know,

00:43:02.119 --> 00:43:04.189
for, for some information and such.

00:43:04.189 --> 00:43:08.479
And I was kind of going through this
and, and having them, having the AI,

00:43:08.539 --> 00:43:14.029
whatever platform it was, look at it,
one of the things that was interesting

00:43:14.029 --> 00:43:18.259
to me is that they said, well, well
what's unique about what you're doing

00:43:18.859 --> 00:43:21.319
is this social connection focus.

00:43:21.589 --> 00:43:26.959
Which is kind of amazing to me
because it is so fundamental to us

00:43:26.959 --> 00:43:29.239
as humans that we have our people.

00:43:29.569 --> 00:43:30.769
That we're connected.

00:43:31.339 --> 00:43:32.839
We want it to be healthy, right?

00:43:32.839 --> 00:43:35.659
We're not just going for the
easy fix on what's the easiest

00:43:35.659 --> 00:43:37.219
way to be around people.

00:43:37.429 --> 00:43:39.469
People can be in a room and feel alone.

00:43:39.889 --> 00:43:43.339
It's about a meaningful,
connected relationship.

00:43:43.339 --> 00:43:46.459
And like you said, I
have my people, you know?

00:43:46.459 --> 00:43:52.039
I have my people and, and, and that
does create safety and contentment.

00:43:53.114 --> 00:43:53.294
Michael: Yep.

00:43:53.964 --> 00:43:54.454
Makes sense.

00:43:54.814 --> 00:43:58.084
Alright, so the last one, I
feel like is the biggest one.

00:43:58.624 --> 00:44:02.224
I'm not sure, like, just because it covers
so much and that's consumption, right,

00:44:02.299 --> 00:44:02.509
Matt: Yeah.

00:44:02.564 --> 00:44:03.934
Michael: of the, the Primal Five.

00:44:03.934 --> 00:44:07.324
And, normally, when we consider
consumption, things would be like

00:44:07.474 --> 00:44:13.144
food and calories and things, but
also like media and social media,

00:44:13.204 --> 00:44:15.394
television, whatever it may be.

00:44:15.394 --> 00:44:18.574
I mean, consumption can
be all sorts of things.

00:44:19.294 --> 00:44:24.754
How should we as dads think
about what we're consuming, what

00:44:24.754 --> 00:44:26.014
we're letting into our systems?

00:44:27.199 --> 00:44:27.769
Matt: Absolutely.

00:44:27.769 --> 00:44:30.079
I, I actually agree with
everything you said about it.

00:44:30.079 --> 00:44:35.779
It is a large category, but it's
also equally large in an impact.

00:44:35.779 --> 00:44:36.949
It is our fuel.

00:44:37.219 --> 00:44:39.619
What we put in our bodies is our fuel.

00:44:40.159 --> 00:44:40.429
And

00:44:40.744 --> 00:44:40.894
Michael: Yeah.

00:44:41.069 --> 00:44:42.769
Matt: So, you know, it's
garbage in, garbage out.

00:44:42.769 --> 00:44:44.629
You know, it, it, that's what we take.

00:44:44.629 --> 00:44:51.184
And, in fact, that is what, you know,
it's in one way we can look at it is that

00:44:51.214 --> 00:44:53.794
we're trying to reduce garbage, right?

00:44:53.794 --> 00:44:56.554
And so we have, you know,
we think about garbage food.

00:44:56.854 --> 00:45:00.544
Well, there's all sorts of different
garbage with consumption, you

00:45:00.544 --> 00:45:04.204
know, that we have to be really
cautious, that we have to be careful.

00:45:04.264 --> 00:45:06.454
We're not gonna be perfect again.

00:45:06.664 --> 00:45:07.504
Let's get that down.

00:45:07.504 --> 00:45:11.254
We're gonna have fast food, or we're
gonna grab something quick, you know,

00:45:11.254 --> 00:45:13.084
and things like that that's gonna happen.

00:45:13.624 --> 00:45:14.584
Just accept it.

00:45:14.644 --> 00:45:18.274
I mean, really, part of any change is
accepting that we're gonna mess up.

00:45:18.724 --> 00:45:22.084
If mess up means you failed,
you're never changing anything.

00:45:22.684 --> 00:45:25.984
Just recognize that slip
ups are part of the process.

00:45:25.984 --> 00:45:30.544
But, again, it, it's something
where we understand with food.

00:45:30.724 --> 00:45:33.754
You know, our food, it's,
it, again, it's tough.

00:45:34.144 --> 00:45:39.184
It's tough because the food, the
processed food that's available to

00:45:39.184 --> 00:45:45.514
us taps in to that biology that sugar
was less available to our ancestors.

00:45:45.514 --> 00:45:49.714
So, there's a high reward
basis for, for consuming it.

00:45:50.584 --> 00:45:53.254
It gives us that short burst of
energy and things, and so the

00:45:53.254 --> 00:45:56.674
processed food, nearly all of them
are gonna have processed sugar in 'em.

00:45:57.004 --> 00:45:59.044
It gives us that short term boost.

00:45:59.254 --> 00:46:01.444
It's very reinforcing in that way.

00:46:01.624 --> 00:46:04.774
Terrible for us, but
very reinforcing, right?

00:46:05.974 --> 00:46:07.324
You know, so we have these things.

00:46:07.324 --> 00:46:10.744
You know, obviously there's substances,
and there's, you know, watching out

00:46:10.744 --> 00:46:12.364
for alcohol consumption and such.

00:46:12.364 --> 00:46:15.304
We know that there's, there's making
sure that we're hydrated, that we're

00:46:15.304 --> 00:46:16.654
getting a good bit of water in.

00:46:17.164 --> 00:46:20.824
But as you said, there's also the
mental consumption and just, you know,

00:46:21.094 --> 00:46:22.624
put, put the shoe on the other foot.

00:46:22.774 --> 00:46:23.524
Think about it.

00:46:23.734 --> 00:46:28.264
How would you feel if your
kid was watching some extreme

00:46:28.264 --> 00:46:29.764
news service all the time?

00:46:29.764 --> 00:46:31.624
Would you think that
that was good for them?

00:46:32.224 --> 00:46:36.394
Would you think that whatever scrolling
that can happen on social media,

00:46:36.394 --> 00:46:38.224
would you encourage that in them?

00:46:38.884 --> 00:46:39.484
You know?

00:46:40.389 --> 00:46:40.739
Michael: Right.

00:46:40.904 --> 00:46:43.454
Matt: You know, and another one is,
obviously, they're the most popular

00:46:43.454 --> 00:46:46.874
websites on the internet, which
are pornography sites, and just

00:46:46.874 --> 00:46:50.324
thinking, we recognize that these
are bad for us, even if we don't

00:46:50.324 --> 00:46:52.574
necessarily think of them that way.

00:46:52.844 --> 00:46:57.434
We know that we need to have moderation
and, and limits on these things.

00:46:58.424 --> 00:47:01.334
But absolutely, you know,
we were talking about news.

00:47:01.574 --> 00:47:03.014
What is news gonna hit on?

00:47:03.404 --> 00:47:08.144
Outrage, fear, because that's,
as that hits the primal, we're

00:47:08.144 --> 00:47:09.824
gonna pay attention to threat.

00:47:09.854 --> 00:47:14.654
We're gonna pay attention
to things that outrage us.

00:47:14.654 --> 00:47:18.764
And so consumption's a large
category, it's our fuel and

00:47:18.764 --> 00:47:20.714
it's, it's incredibly important.

00:47:22.394 --> 00:47:26.204
Michael: I imagine like particularly
with, with news in today's day and age,

00:47:26.474 --> 00:47:32.864
there is so much going on and a lot
of negativity potentially out there.

00:47:32.954 --> 00:47:37.244
A lot of, a lot of different things going
on that we don't necessarily, aren't

00:47:37.244 --> 00:47:43.994
necessarily feeding our souls per se,
right, and, but we can't bury our heads

00:47:43.994 --> 00:47:47.054
in the sand either and not recognize
like what's going on and learn about

00:47:47.054 --> 00:47:51.644
like, what's going on in the world and
knowing, you know, the bad things that

00:47:51.644 --> 00:47:57.014
are happening, but figuring out ways
to do that in moderation or do it in

00:47:57.014 --> 00:48:01.874
a way that is not so depleting, right?

00:48:01.874 --> 00:48:07.574
Of like, okay, I know I need to, I, I
wanna stay current of what's going on in

00:48:07.574 --> 00:48:10.814
the world, and I'm not gonna agree with
everything that's happening in the news,

00:48:10.829 --> 00:48:11.119
Matt: Sure.

00:48:12.474 --> 00:48:15.494
Michael: right, but I still need
to take it, like you said, like

00:48:15.554 --> 00:48:17.294
we're not gonna be perfect when
it comes to our food consumption.

00:48:17.294 --> 00:48:18.884
We're not gonna be perfect when
it comes to our news consumption.

00:48:18.884 --> 00:48:22.664
We don't control what happens in the news,
so we're going to consume some of that.

00:48:22.664 --> 00:48:27.104
And I think it's, for me at least,
like it's okay to know what's going on,

00:48:27.944 --> 00:48:33.304
but we can't just go down that rabbit
hole of all the news is negative.

00:48:33.304 --> 00:48:34.184
I'm just gonna focus on all that.

00:48:34.184 --> 00:48:36.974
Like I have to consume other things to

00:48:39.554 --> 00:48:41.114
keep me in check, I guess, right?

00:48:41.144 --> 00:48:46.814
Of like, there needs to be things
that I find fascinating, interesting,

00:48:46.814 --> 00:48:48.554
that aren't so negative, right?

00:48:48.554 --> 00:48:53.024
Things that are going to challenge me
mentally to think outside the box, make

00:48:53.024 --> 00:48:58.634
me, help me think more creatively, so that
I'm not, I'm not just consuming negative

00:48:58.634 --> 00:49:04.304
news all the time because if I just turn
on, you know, the news 24/7, I can sure

00:49:04.304 --> 00:49:06.264
fill up my, my news consumption, right?

00:49:06.264 --> 00:49:06.714
Matt: Oh yeah.

00:49:07.604 --> 00:49:09.764
Michael: But it's not, I don't
think it's gonna be very healthy

00:49:09.764 --> 00:49:10.544
for me to do that, right?

00:49:10.544 --> 00:49:13.964
I have to fi-, find other
outlets for consumption.

00:49:14.204 --> 00:49:16.874
For me, I think it's
like, it's reading books.

00:49:17.054 --> 00:49:22.024
It's reading blog articles about
things that are interesting to me that

00:49:22.544 --> 00:49:24.504
maybe aren't current events, right?

00:49:24.504 --> 00:49:27.764
Maybe it's about technology or maybe
it's about art, or maybe it's about

00:49:27.794 --> 00:49:32.714
music, whatever it might be, of just
like, you kinda have to have a more,

00:49:33.299 --> 00:49:37.229
like your food consumption, you have to
have a more diverse set of inputs, right?

00:49:37.229 --> 00:49:39.659
Like you're not gonna eat
just sugars all day, right?

00:49:39.659 --> 00:49:41.399
You're gonna have fruit, you're
gonna have some vegetables.

00:49:41.399 --> 00:49:42.299
You should have some vegetables.

00:49:42.299 --> 00:49:45.239
You're gonna have your fibers, your,
your breads, whatever it might be, right?

00:49:46.439 --> 00:49:48.509
My teachers are gonna be like, why
didn't you ever pay attention to

00:49:48.509 --> 00:49:51.149
the food pyramid when I was a kid,
but I'm not gonna remember all that

00:49:51.149 --> 00:49:52.169
off the top of my head right now.

00:49:52.679 --> 00:49:53.489
It's a long time ago.

00:49:53.489 --> 00:49:56.249
So, but like, it's the same idea, right?

00:49:56.249 --> 00:50:00.239
You can't just consume the same thing
over and over and over again and hope like

00:50:00.239 --> 00:50:01.259
everything's just gonna work out, right?

00:50:01.259 --> 00:50:05.249
You have to round yourself out with a
little bit of this, a little bit of that.

00:50:05.249 --> 00:50:08.279
And I think it's the same with
informational consumption.

00:50:09.539 --> 00:50:10.409
Matt: Un-, undoubtedly.

00:50:10.439 --> 00:50:16.199
I, I think, so, you mentioned something
that does make it tricky, which is

00:50:16.199 --> 00:50:20.729
there is this more, I think it, this,
this, this idea, this belief that

00:50:20.729 --> 00:50:22.529
we should be an informed public.

00:50:22.769 --> 00:50:26.879
And I agree with it completely, but
it can become a slippery slope these

00:50:26.879 --> 00:50:32.309
days because this is not back in the
day where there was the 6:30 news.

00:50:32.549 --> 00:50:35.939
We have news available all the
time, and so, and then those news

00:50:35.939 --> 00:50:37.679
services are gonna be competing.

00:50:38.039 --> 00:50:41.399
And so they're competing for clicks
and views and all these things.

00:50:41.699 --> 00:50:45.884
So they're gonna try to hook
on things that, again, rile

00:50:45.884 --> 00:50:48.134
us up in some form or fashion.

00:50:48.674 --> 00:50:50.504
And so that's what they're going for.

00:50:50.504 --> 00:50:53.624
Our new services, many
of 'em are really biased.

00:50:55.244 --> 00:50:57.074
And they get us mad at each other.

00:50:57.224 --> 00:50:59.714
We lose, we lose what is the main thing?

00:50:59.714 --> 00:51:04.454
It's people, you know, but we get
so focused on these tribal type of

00:51:04.454 --> 00:51:07.904
things, honestly, that, that people
we care about, we get upset with.

00:51:07.904 --> 00:51:12.884
But, to give an example, you know,
getting away from the political, but to

00:51:12.884 --> 00:51:16.544
give an example of what I'm, what I'm
referring to and how it distorts us,

00:51:18.764 --> 00:51:23.084
if you think about the last time you
scrolled news or did something like that,

00:51:24.304 --> 00:51:24.524
Michael: Yep.

00:51:24.584 --> 00:51:27.164
Matt: did you read about, or, I mean,
did you watch something that was

00:51:27.164 --> 00:51:29.234
talking about some crime that occurred?

00:51:31.324 --> 00:51:31.834
Yes, right?

00:51:32.344 --> 00:51:32.564
Michael: Yep.

00:51:33.374 --> 00:51:38.594
Matt: How many news stories were
they on, there on that person who

00:51:39.164 --> 00:51:44.984
drove home after work that day,
had dinner, sat down with family,

00:51:45.164 --> 00:51:47.354
watched some good TV and went to bed?

00:51:47.774 --> 00:51:48.974
But that's not newsworthy.

00:51:49.604 --> 00:51:55.244
But for our brain, what happens
is, what is, what the input is,

00:51:55.244 --> 00:51:56.654
is that it affects our perception.

00:51:56.654 --> 00:52:00.344
I had a client one time that was
terribly fearful of someone breaking

00:52:00.344 --> 00:52:02.144
in their house and doing them harm.

00:52:02.654 --> 00:52:05.924
And at one point I asked them,
how likely do you think this is?

00:52:06.554 --> 00:52:07.584
I said, 50/50.

00:52:07.994 --> 00:52:10.034
So, that is truly terrifying.

00:52:10.124 --> 00:52:14.084
If I thought every time I put my head to
the pillow, something bad could happen

00:52:14.084 --> 00:52:17.684
like that, that would be terrifying, but
what happened is this person was watching

00:52:17.684 --> 00:52:21.974
the news, the local, you know, news
for the city, Memphis, that's near us.

00:52:21.974 --> 00:52:25.274
And so they were inundated
with this information.

00:52:25.274 --> 00:52:26.624
Well, that affects our brains.

00:52:26.624 --> 00:52:29.294
That in, we all of a sudden
think that's more likely.

00:52:29.834 --> 00:52:36.269
And so it's just the human, were not
made for that kind of thing, so, just

00:52:36.269 --> 00:52:38.279
being careful about the source of news.

00:52:38.279 --> 00:52:42.689
My recommendation is 15 minutes in
the morning, 15 minutes in the early

00:52:42.689 --> 00:52:44.159
afternoon, and then cut it off.

00:52:44.279 --> 00:52:47.699
We are informed, but
we're not overwhelmed.

00:52:49.219 --> 00:52:49.699
Michael: Love that.

00:52:50.299 --> 00:52:54.739
It's, it's such a, it's
almost like exercise, right?

00:52:54.739 --> 00:52:56.689
You said, or movement 30 minutes.

00:52:57.004 --> 00:52:57.294
Matt: Sure,

00:52:57.319 --> 00:53:01.009
Michael: And here it is again, like news
or informational consumption, 30 minutes.

00:53:01.009 --> 00:53:04.249
But do it, you could even break
it up into, to smaller chunks to,

00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:04.739
Matt: Yes,

00:53:04.839 --> 00:53:05.309
Michael: to fit it within,

00:53:05.369 --> 00:53:05.939
Matt: absolutely.

00:53:06.239 --> 00:53:06.629
Michael: within your schedule.

00:53:07.169 --> 00:53:09.004
So, before we get to the speed
round, I wanna ask you one more

00:53:09.154 --> 00:53:13.034
question, just 'cause we've gone
now through the entire Primal Five.

00:53:13.124 --> 00:53:20.654
And it's like, to me, it's now
become obvious like, oh yeah, these

00:53:20.654 --> 00:53:27.044
are the things that, that bring
me energy or deplete my energy

00:53:27.044 --> 00:53:29.494
if I don't do them sort of thing.

00:53:29.759 --> 00:53:33.104
And so it's like, I, I, I think it's
really interesting, exciting now that

00:53:33.104 --> 00:53:36.464
I'm starting to understand this, but
how do you stay consistent with these

00:53:36.464 --> 00:53:40.904
habits when life inevitably gets chaotic?

00:53:42.254 --> 00:53:45.194
Matt: There are a few things that I
think are really important for that.

00:53:46.214 --> 00:53:52.994
The first is scheduling or routine,
I guess is a better term, better

00:53:52.994 --> 00:53:54.524
word for what I'm looking for.

00:53:54.854 --> 00:53:56.624
Routine helps tremendously.

00:53:56.984 --> 00:54:02.174
What routine does, when we can
establish a routine, it takes

00:54:02.714 --> 00:54:07.424
thinking out of it, and that helps
us when we're thinking about choices.

00:54:07.904 --> 00:54:11.354
It, I mentioned earlier that I, I
walk my dogs every morning, and I

00:54:11.354 --> 00:54:16.154
promise you this, if every time that
alarm went off, if every time when

00:54:16.154 --> 00:54:21.464
my feet hit the ground, I gave myself
the choice, do I want to do this?

00:54:22.559 --> 00:54:27.689
I am not gonna be walking very often,
right, because it's just, it, again,

00:54:27.689 --> 00:54:32.459
asking ourselves that every time, whatever
feeling I'm having at that time is

00:54:32.459 --> 00:54:34.469
usually gonna direct what I decide to do.

00:54:34.739 --> 00:54:40.919
So, routine really helps us to just
go ahead and, you know, the old

00:54:40.919 --> 00:54:45.509
Nike, you know, low or quote is
just do it, is we just get moving.

00:54:46.439 --> 00:54:48.659
That's, that's one thing
that's really important.

00:54:48.989 --> 00:54:53.909
I think another thing that's related to
that, that's really important is we don't

00:54:53.909 --> 00:54:55.889
always have to feel like we want to.

00:54:56.369 --> 00:55:00.779
You know, if we're relying on being
motivated all the time, we're not gonna

00:55:00.779 --> 00:55:05.309
make many changes because just the
reality is we're not gonna feel like it.

00:55:06.509 --> 00:55:11.879
And so moving forward doesn't mean
we need to be gung-ho and, and such.

00:55:11.879 --> 00:55:13.949
And, and, and it's, and it's not easy.

00:55:13.949 --> 00:55:16.049
I mean, we want to do what we feel like.

00:55:18.314 --> 00:55:22.844
Allowing ourselves to slip, and
this is such a big one, is allowing

00:55:22.844 --> 00:55:26.204
ourselves to slip, like you said,
days get busy, things like that.

00:55:26.774 --> 00:55:31.184
Okay, well if I slipped, use
it as an information piece.

00:55:31.214 --> 00:55:33.074
Okay, well, I slipped, this was going on.

00:55:33.074 --> 00:55:40.034
What might be good in the future because
real change involves plateaus and dips.

00:55:40.304 --> 00:55:42.404
And then I keep working at it.

00:55:42.404 --> 00:55:47.214
And now I have something because I've
learned where the places I can slip are,

00:55:47.574 --> 00:55:51.114
I'm more prepared, and so I can keep
it up, but we're not gonna be perfect.

00:55:51.144 --> 00:55:53.694
Just, that's the ,essential
and we're gonna slip.

00:55:54.624 --> 00:55:58.434
And as long as we're continuing to
move forward with it, that's success.

00:56:00.634 --> 00:56:01.114
Michael: Love that.

00:56:02.284 --> 00:56:03.364
So practical, right?

00:56:03.364 --> 00:56:05.164
Of just like give, allow
yourself some grace.

00:56:05.164 --> 00:56:06.124
Be consistent.

00:56:06.544 --> 00:56:13.074
Like these, and you can really start
to replenish yourself, I think, in a

00:56:13.504 --> 00:56:17.344
more healthy way than I think a lot
of us, myself at least, have been,

00:56:17.404 --> 00:56:19.624
have been doing in recent times.

00:56:20.374 --> 00:56:22.364
Alright, so I wanna go from the
serious to the not so serious.

00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:22.929
Matt: All right.

00:56:22.929 --> 00:56:23.409
Let's go.

00:56:24.464 --> 00:56:24.684
Michael: Let's jump into the speed round.

00:56:24.684 --> 00:56:25.334
Five quick questions.

00:56:25.334 --> 00:56:26.524
Nothing to do with anything.

00:56:27.334 --> 00:56:29.464
What's the first kid show
theme song that comes to mind?

00:56:29.699 --> 00:56:30.229
Matt: Scooby-Doo.

00:56:31.584 --> 00:56:32.024
Michael: Scooby-Doo.

00:56:32.024 --> 00:56:32.094
Nice.

00:56:32.109 --> 00:56:32.919
Matt: Absolutely.

00:56:34.804 --> 00:56:36.004
Michael: What was your very first job?

00:56:37.029 --> 00:56:40.149
Matt: It was the only job I ever got
fired from, which was landscaping.

00:56:40.539 --> 00:56:41.109
Yes.

00:56:41.824 --> 00:56:42.214
Michael: Wow.

00:56:42.429 --> 00:56:42.639
Matt: Yeah.

00:56:44.464 --> 00:56:46.544
Michael: Would you rather spend
24 hours with a toddler-sized

00:56:46.544 --> 00:56:48.544
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:56:49.569 --> 00:56:52.094
Matt: Definitely a toddler,
a toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:56:52.474 --> 00:56:53.374
Unquestionably.

00:56:53.379 --> 00:56:55.869
I mean, those diapers would be unbearable.

00:56:58.224 --> 00:56:58.974
Michael: Fair enough.

00:56:59.424 --> 00:57:00.554
See, that's a practical answer, right?

00:57:00.699 --> 00:57:01.214
Matt: There you go.

00:57:02.364 --> 00:57:02.784
Michael: Yeah.

00:57:03.504 --> 00:57:07.314
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:57:07.629 --> 00:57:10.449
Matt: Well, I mean, if I had the
chops it would be Thunder Road.

00:57:10.764 --> 00:57:15.224
But since I don't, I, you know,
I think it would be You Never

00:57:15.254 --> 00:57:16.614
Even Called Me by My Name.

00:57:17.004 --> 00:57:18.744
It's an old David Allan Coe song.

00:57:18.744 --> 00:57:19.704
It's a good sing along.

00:57:20.124 --> 00:57:20.334
Michael: Got it.

00:57:21.144 --> 00:57:21.684
Excellent.

00:57:22.044 --> 00:57:24.234
Finally, what's the weirdest thing
you've ever carried around in

00:57:24.234 --> 00:57:26.064
your bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:57:26.514 --> 00:57:27.354
Matt: You know, weirdest?

00:57:27.414 --> 00:57:28.194
I don't know.

00:57:28.194 --> 00:57:33.714
I, I think that the most inconvenient
is when I would have like a chocolate,

00:57:33.924 --> 00:57:37.344
you know, something in my pocket
and then would find out I had

00:57:37.344 --> 00:57:38.844
it when it got out of the dryer.

00:57:40.284 --> 00:57:43.614
But, but I think to me, one of the
things that I just think is silly

00:57:43.644 --> 00:57:47.079
'cause of the superstition is whenever
my kids would play a sport, you

00:57:47.079 --> 00:57:48.534
know, and I'd have a ticket from it.

00:57:48.534 --> 00:57:52.254
If they had a good game, that
thing was staying forever.

00:57:52.374 --> 00:57:56.904
You know, like I have so many old
baseball, you know, tickets from some, you

00:57:56.904 --> 00:57:58.644
know, little tournament they played in.

00:57:59.364 --> 00:58:00.354
I just couldn't get rid of 'em.

00:58:00.444 --> 00:58:04.294
So, I'd keep them in my bag or keep
'em in my pocket, ball, in my wallet.

00:58:04.294 --> 00:58:04.714
Michael: I love that.

00:58:04.904 --> 00:58:04.914
Matt: Mm-hmm.

00:58:05.089 --> 00:58:05.739
Michael: Great answer.

00:58:06.409 --> 00:58:06.929
So cool.

00:58:07.569 --> 00:58:10.089
Matt, before we wrap up, I wanna
make sure people know where they

00:58:10.089 --> 00:58:11.079
can learn more about your work.

00:58:11.109 --> 00:58:13.844
If someone wants to learn more about you
and Primal Five, where should they go?

00:58:14.904 --> 00:58:16.314
Matt: Well, just visit the website.

00:58:16.314 --> 00:58:21.924
It's Our Primal Five, the number
five, dot com, and it has a newsletter

00:58:21.924 --> 00:58:24.054
there that, that you can subscribe to.

00:58:24.054 --> 00:58:28.614
It has a link to the workbook
on Amazon and, and some just

00:58:28.614 --> 00:58:30.354
general information about it.

00:58:30.354 --> 00:58:31.104
So, that'd be great.

00:58:31.404 --> 00:58:33.144
I'd love it if people gave it a look.

00:58:34.104 --> 00:58:38.064
You know, and the, and the hope with
this has my hope with it, I, you know,

00:58:38.064 --> 00:58:42.804
I just thought to myself, if I wrote one
thing, what could be the most impactful?

00:58:42.804 --> 00:58:48.054
Like, if, if there was one shot and
one thing that I think in all my time

00:58:48.714 --> 00:58:52.614
of doing, of being a psychologist,
what would be most helpful, and this

00:58:52.614 --> 00:58:57.384
is, this is where I landed and, and
I really just, it's, it's a passion.

00:58:58.014 --> 00:59:03.084
I think that, for dads, I think that it's
something that allows you, can allow you

00:59:03.084 --> 00:59:08.499
to be the most, the best that you can be
at these things that you care about and

00:59:08.499 --> 00:59:12.099
value so much 'cause that's really, at the
end of the day, that's what we want, you

00:59:12.099 --> 00:59:18.729
know, is to be as, you know, as invested
and engaged with what we value the most.

00:59:18.729 --> 00:59:21.129
And I think for a lot of us
dads, that's exactly what it is.

00:59:23.279 --> 00:59:23.784
Michael: I love that.

00:59:23.784 --> 00:59:25.524
Matt, I really appreciate
this conversation.

00:59:25.554 --> 00:59:26.814
Thank you so much for being here.

00:59:27.054 --> 00:59:29.634
I think a lot of dads are
gonna hear themselves in

00:59:29.664 --> 00:59:31.374
what you shared today, right?

00:59:31.374 --> 00:59:33.474
Like, I think a lot of
us need more sunlight.

00:59:33.474 --> 00:59:40.464
A lot of us need to, we use the excuse
of we don't have time, but there are ways

00:59:40.464 --> 00:59:45.954
to fit some of these things in to allow
us to replenish ourselves, get a little

00:59:45.954 --> 00:59:50.604
bit more energy back, so we can be more
present, be more patient in the situation,

00:59:50.964 --> 00:59:53.484
and be there for those we care about most.

00:59:54.294 --> 00:59:59.184
And I appreciate you walking us through
the Primal Five, so thank you so

00:59:59.184 --> 01:00:00.624
much for sharing that with us today.

01:00:01.069 --> 01:00:03.439
Finally, before you go, if you're a dad
listening to this and you find yourself

01:00:03.439 --> 01:00:07.159
in between navigating a season that feels
different, head to gaptogig.com, and

01:00:07.159 --> 01:00:08.629
subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

01:00:09.099 --> 01:00:12.049
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

01:00:12.049 --> 01:00:13.279
and what really matters right now.

01:00:13.289 --> 01:00:16.069
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

01:00:16.069 --> 01:00:17.069
dad who might need to hear it.

01:00:17.629 --> 01:00:19.189
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

01:00:19.459 --> 01:00:21.439
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.