Rob Capili on Rebuilding Life After Divorce and Raising Resilient Kids

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Rob: You realize, no,
kids are pretty durable.

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You know what I mean?

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That you don't need to panic so much
about every, oh, they're in the 96th

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percentile and they need to be in the
98th percentile, and you know what I mean?

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Like I, I think marriages
were like that, too.

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The thing I got out of divorce, what,
that was really helpful to me, was

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when I felt like I was at rock bottom
after that, I knew absolutely what I

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was not going to ever tolerate again.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs,
and today's guest is Rob Capili.

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Rob's a writer, filmmaker, musician,
and digital strategist who spent his

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career building things across a wide
range of creative and business worlds.

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His work has generated millions in
revenue and has been featured in places

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like the New York Times and Wired.

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He's also an award-winning
filmmaker, a Brazilian jiu-jitsu

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black belt, and someone who's
navigated a lot of life transitions.

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Rob's a dad whose kids are now grown
and along the way, he rebuilt his

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life after divorce, started new
creative ventures, and kept showing

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up for the people in his life.

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Rob, welcome to Gap to Gig.

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I'm really thrilled to have you here.

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Thanks for joining me.

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Rob: Man, thanks for having me.

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Michael: Of course.

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Of course.

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Your journey is pretty incredible,
and you've, I think, learned a lot

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along the way, and I kinda wanna
start with you and your path.

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For people hearing your story
for the first time, how would you

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describe the path that led you
to the work you're doing today?

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Rob: Man, I would describe it as
long and winding, like it wasn't

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necessarily a straight shot.

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Michael: Sure.

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Rob: So, I, I got, I have a degree
in letters, right, which is history,

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philosophy, classical culture,
but I've always worked in tech.

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So, you know, I, I've never
taken a straight road anywhere.

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I've just kind of always
followed where curiosity led me.

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Michael: That's cool.

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I, it's very obvious to me, knowing you
a little bit now, like, you are somebody

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who follows his passion, follows that
curiosity, the things that are, that

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interest you and like, 'cause you're
across a lot of different fields, right?

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Like, from what I know of
you, like you do work in AI.

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Rob: Yeah.

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Michael: You have just completed
an incredible graphic novel, right?

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Lovers Quarrel.

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Rob: Thank you.

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Michael: Right, like, you've
done all sort, you do all

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sorts of like musical stuff.

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You do film production stuff.

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You've written scripts, like,
it's, your work spans a lot

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of different creative worlds

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Rob: Yeah.

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Michael: plus like actual business, too.

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Like writing, filmmaking, digital
strategy, building brands.

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What's kind of kept all those
pieces connected for you over time?

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Is it just the interesting,
is it a creativity thing?

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Like, how do those things
come together for you?

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Rob: I mean, it's definitely
based on interest.

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Like all the stuff seems
cool or interesting to me.

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Fun, right?

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Challenging.

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I like challenging things.

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I don't know.

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I've always been kind of like that.

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I grew up as a military brat, so every
two to three years, my whole world

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got dumped upside down, you know?

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You'd be one place, but, and you kind of
have, yeah, like you'd be a popular kid

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at this school, and then you move to the
next school and you're a complete outcast,

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and then you go to the next place and
it's like nobody speaks English, right?

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So, I've always kind of had a lot of
different worlds that I've inhabited,

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and I think maybe some of that just
kind of leaked into my interest.

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Like I was exposed to so many things and
so many different cultures that I started

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just kind of collecting different things
that I liked from around the world.

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Michael: That's cool.

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It must have been challenging though,
to like keep starting over, right?

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And especially when you're young, like,
I don't know if, like, I guess there's

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an element of stability or instability
there of having to, to start over

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every couple of years as you move,
but then, you know, you seem to have a

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very steady, stable presence about you.

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How do you kind of

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merge those two?

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Like, how did that, how
did that come to be?

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Rob: Well, I think if your world is
constantly changing around you, the only

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kind of stable thing is yourself, right?

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Like you and your family.

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So I, I never really got attached
too much to places or things.

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But then the stuff that is
internal, I think, is what you

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really value and cultivate things
that you believe in, things that

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you enjoy, things that you like.

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That's, that's what's gonna be stable,
whether you're in like, California,

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Hawaii, Germany, you know, when you're
moving around to different places.

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Michael: Right, right.

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So, you've also raised your kids through
some major life transitions, right,

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Rob: Yeah.

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Michael: like, including divorce,
and when you look back now, what

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were the hardest parts of that
time as a dad of those transitions?

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Rob: Like raising the kids?

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Michael: Yeah.

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Raising the kids.

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Rob: Man, I think everybody looks
back at what they did as a father when

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they're raising their kids, and they
have regrets about things they think

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they should or shouldn't have done.

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Divorce makes it even harder, though,
because anyone who's gone through

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divorce know, I mean, I guess some
people have easy divorces, but

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for me that was one of the most
difficult periods of my entire life.

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I mean, not just the divorce, but the
circumstances leading up to it, right?

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It kind of destroys a lot of things in
your life, and while you're trying to

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just keep your head above water, even on
a personal level, then you have to like,

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you know, keep your business stuff going.

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Financially, you still have
responsibilities, and then you're

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still trying to be a father.

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It's like, how do you, it's kinda
like you're being swept over

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the falls, and you're trying not
to, you know, spill your drink.

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It's almost impossible.

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Michael: Yeah, I feel you.

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I've been through the same thing, right?

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Like we've talked about this.

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I've been through a divorce.

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It was a rough situation.

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It was not, like you said, yeah, I'm
sure there are easy divorces out there.

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This was not one of them.

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Right, and, you know, I had my own
business when I got divorced and trying

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to manage that and manage the all, all the
things around the divorce, and then not

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letting any of that take away from what
my first priority was, which was the kids.

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Rob: Yeah.

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Michael: I can't a hundred
percent protect the kids at all

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times during the divorce, right?

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Like, they are going to be split be, you
know, spending time at both houses and

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are going to be exposed to things that I
wouldn't necessarily, you know, I can't

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always be in control of what's going on.

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So, how do I, to me, the challenge was
always like, how do I put them first,

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and make sure they are taken care
of to the degree that I can, right?

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Like, I think I had to learn that
it's okay not to be perfect, not

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to be like the super dad, right?

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Like you just have to let them
experience things, right, and for me

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it was, it's still challenging, right?

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My kids are older now, like they're,
one's graduating high school one, the

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other one's in high school, and like,
they understand a lot more now than

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they did then, and it just brings up new
challenges of like, would they prefer not

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to be splitting time between two houses?

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A hundred percent.

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Would they prefer to not see
their parents start over?

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I think so, right?

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But that's, unfortunately, that's
just the way life goes sometimes.

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And, yes, I always try to have the
kids' best interests in mind, but it

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doesn't always work out, I think, right?

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Like, and I just have to admit to
myself like, that's going to happen.

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That's okay.

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Rob: It.

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Even figuring out what their best
interest is is a problem, right?

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Like I remember when I was still going
through couples counseling and stuff like

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that, my ex-wife was adamant that I not
tell the kids about certain things, that

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I not tell them the truth about certain
things, that I not answer certain things.

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My mindset was always kind of like,
we'll just tell the truth and trust the

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kids to, you know, obviously, you don't
want to dump everything on the kids.

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You don't wanna involve them too much,
but they're, they're not idiots, right?

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They're gonna ask you questions
and when they point blank, ask

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you questions, right, it's like I
have half the people telling me,

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well, don't tell 'em, lie to them.

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And I'm thinking, well, if I tell them
the truth, that's a burden too, right?

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Like, so how, how do you even
know what the right thing

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is to do in that situation?

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Michael: Right.

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Yeah.

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And I think I, at least for me, in my
experience, it was like the kids are gonna

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figure out the truth one way or the other.

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Rob: Right.

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Michael: They see through, they,
they understand a lot more than

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I think we give 'em credit for,

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Rob: Yes.

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Michael: right?

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And, it's like someone tells you, well,
don't tell 'em the truth, but is that

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the relationship you wanna have with
your kids, right, of like, do you want

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to be the one that is lying to them?

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Because, to me, it didn't
feel good to, to lie to them.

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Do I wanna protect 'em
from certain things?

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Yes.

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Rob: Yes.

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Michael: Do they need to know
at, at the age of seven the

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reasons why we got divorced?

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Probably not.

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Right?

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Like they don't need
all the level of detail.

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They don't.

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Rob: Just by the way you're
talking, I feel like you and

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I had very similar reasons.

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Michael: Right.

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Right.

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Like, they don't need to read the
parenting agreement at, you know,

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five years old, but they're gonna
have questions when they're 13,

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Rob: Yeah.

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Michael: of like, why do I
have to split my time this way?

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Why does mom get to do this
and you get to do that?

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Why can't I do this?

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Right, and it's like, well,

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if they were five years older
and asked those questions, I

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think I'd have different answers.

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But, you know, 13, 15, 17, it's like,
okay, I'm gonna tell you the truth

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because, A, you deserve the truth,
and I wanna live an honest life as

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best that I can, but I also think how
does that actually serve the kids by

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misguiding them or misleading them
is to, cause they're gonna experience

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things in life that I don't think
that, that we anticipate right now.

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And they're not always gonna be positive.

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And, I think, for me, my mindset has
been, I'd rather expose them to the, the

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negativity in a setting that they are
still protected in, they're still safe

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in now, so that when they do experience
things that are unsettling to them later,

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they'll have something to fall back on.

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Now, I hope my kids never have to go
through the process of the divorce, right?

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And I hope that whatever challenging
moments they come up with that by telling

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them like, this is how I handled things.

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Was it perfect?

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Probably not.

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Here's what I could've done better.

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Here's what I, you know,
I think really worked.

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Maybe that'll arm them with a little
bit better decision making so they don't

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get themselves in situations where they
don't know what the, the right answer is.

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But again, not gonna be perfect, right?

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Like, not gonna be able to give 'em every.

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Rob: You don't wanna burden them.

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You don't wanna burden them with too much
stuff that's none of their, like, it's,

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it's not their responsibility to carry
that burden, but sometimes, you know, if

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your kid is saying, dad, just tell me.

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You know, no one will talk to me.

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No one will answer my questions.

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So you have that where it's like
you have to balance, like, is this

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too much of a burden for a child
versus how much are they gonna suffer

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just wondering in silence what the
hell is happening to their life?

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Another aspect of the whole thing is I've
always tried to never lie to my kids.

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Michael: Yeah.

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Rob: And that's just so that I can
have a good open relationship with them

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because, eventually, even if you're
lying or trying to hide something for

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their own benefit, eventually they're
gonna figure that out and then they're

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gonna question, well, can I trust you?

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You know, I'm not saying that everything
that I say is a hundred percent the

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truth in the absolute sense, but
I always try to at least see like,

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say the truth from my perspective.

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This is how I see it.

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This is what I think it is.

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And then later you can evaluate me,
but whether I was right or wrong, at

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least you know I was giving you an
honest opinion from my perspective.

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You know, so, and I feel like that's
why I have a good relationship

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with all my kids to this day.

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Regardless of everything that's happened,
that we're open, we can talk about things,

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they can come to me with stuff 'cause
they know I'm not gonna lie to them.

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They might not like everything they hear,

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Michael: Yep.

00:11:55.634 --> 00:11:56.734
Rob: but, you know, I'm not gonna lie.

00:11:57.519 --> 00:11:57.759
Michael: Yep.

00:11:58.119 --> 00:12:02.169
Yeah, I, again, I, like you said, I think
we're very similar experiences, right?

00:12:02.169 --> 00:12:07.359
And I think that that's exactly what
I'm trying to do also, is keep that

00:12:07.599 --> 00:12:13.254
communication open and honest so
that, not just so that they get the

00:12:13.254 --> 00:12:17.404
truth because I think they deserve
the truth, but also so that they have

00:12:17.724 --> 00:12:19.124
something to fall back on, right?

00:12:19.124 --> 00:12:23.994
That they know that push comes a shove,
there's at least an outlet there that

00:12:23.994 --> 00:12:27.654
will give them the truth, that will
give them, tell it to 'em straight,

00:12:27.654 --> 00:12:32.004
like, that's a good idea, or that's not
a good idea or whatever they may need.

00:12:32.004 --> 00:12:34.554
Like, they might come to me
like, I'm in a tough situation.

00:12:34.554 --> 00:12:38.424
I don't know what to do or I do, right,
but like my kids are willing to talk to

00:12:38.424 --> 00:12:43.044
me and, you know, I, I hear, I talk to
parents who are like, oh, my teenagers

00:12:43.044 --> 00:12:44.574
want nothing to do with me, right?

00:12:44.574 --> 00:12:49.044
And it's like, yeah, my kids like to
socialize with their friends, but they

00:12:49.044 --> 00:12:52.974
still spend time with me and, and wanna
do things with me and, and still will

00:12:52.974 --> 00:12:58.044
come to me with, with problems, with
questions, with whatever it may be

00:12:58.974 --> 00:13:03.614
because I feel like, or I hope I have
opened that door for them to be like,

00:13:03.954 --> 00:13:09.939
I'm here, right, and I've shown to
you, over time, that you can rely on

00:13:09.939 --> 00:13:12.639
me to be here when you need something.

00:13:13.064 --> 00:13:13.374
Rob: Yeah.

00:13:13.429 --> 00:13:16.119
Michael: But I'm not gonna be like
overbearing and be like, alright, tell

00:13:16.119 --> 00:13:19.779
me exactly what you're doing every day,
and I wanna know all your problems.

00:13:19.779 --> 00:13:20.529
Give it to me in a list.

00:13:20.529 --> 00:13:24.429
You know, I'm not gonna do
all that, right, but at least

00:13:24.429 --> 00:13:25.749
they know they can come to me.

00:13:25.779 --> 00:13:27.789
Now, they're probably not gonna
talk to me about everything.

00:13:28.209 --> 00:13:32.604
They're gonna go to, they're gonna find
other people to, that they hold in high

00:13:32.604 --> 00:13:36.534
confidence to talk about things that might
be awkward to talk with their dad about.

00:13:36.834 --> 00:13:40.494
I'm okay with that, too, right, but
they know that, at least I hope they

00:13:40.494 --> 00:13:43.404
think that, they can come to me,
and it feels like they do because

00:13:43.644 --> 00:13:44.604
I do hang out with them a lot.

00:13:44.604 --> 00:13:45.714
I do talk to them a lot.

00:13:45.834 --> 00:13:48.654
They do come to me with questions
and problems and we joke a

00:13:48.654 --> 00:13:51.054
lot and it just kind of works.

00:13:51.114 --> 00:13:55.274
But that took work and that, but it
also took honesty, right, because I

00:13:55.274 --> 00:14:00.234
think if I tried to cover things up,
they would've saw right through it.

00:14:00.864 --> 00:14:01.014
And I

00:14:01.024 --> 00:14:01.344
Rob: Yeah.

00:14:01.844 --> 00:14:04.104
Michael: think, at the time, when I
was probably too protective, they saw

00:14:04.104 --> 00:14:09.774
through it, and that's when they, they
remember those things and they will,

00:14:10.944 --> 00:14:16.374
they will hold that as like something
negative that they don't want to repeat.

00:14:16.494 --> 00:14:20.514
And so they might not be so honest
with you the next time if you weren't

00:14:20.514 --> 00:14:24.834
honest with them and they figure out
like he's totally BSing me right now.

00:14:25.884 --> 00:14:28.214
Rob: Yeah, I mean, something that you
find out in co-parenting, too, like I

00:14:28.214 --> 00:14:33.584
remember there's a lot of times when
there was a specific outcome that

00:14:33.644 --> 00:14:37.339
certain people wanted, right, and the
kids didn't necessarily want that.

00:14:37.354 --> 00:14:38.989
I, I can name a bunch of examples.

00:14:38.989 --> 00:14:42.019
One example is my daughter was
very good at volleyball, right?

00:14:42.019 --> 00:14:45.859
And one year she didn't wanna play
and 'cause she had, she's just so

00:14:45.859 --> 00:14:48.439
talented at everything, right, but
she didn't wanna play volleyball.

00:14:48.799 --> 00:14:52.219
And if you've ever had a, a daughter
in volleyball, you know that there's

00:14:52.219 --> 00:14:54.259
a lot of investment in volleyball.

00:14:54.259 --> 00:14:55.519
Club is expensive.

00:14:55.519 --> 00:14:56.059
You know what I mean?

00:14:56.059 --> 00:14:57.259
There's a lot of practices and stuff.

00:14:57.259 --> 00:14:58.879
So everyone's like, you
have to play volleyball.

00:14:59.299 --> 00:15:00.049
And I got the call.

00:15:00.049 --> 00:15:01.219
It's like, Rob, talk to your daughter.

00:15:01.419 --> 00:15:02.019
You know what I mean?

00:15:02.139 --> 00:15:03.669
She needs to play volleyball.

00:15:03.669 --> 00:15:04.849
Like you can talk to her.

00:15:05.189 --> 00:15:06.779
So, I was like, okay, I'll talk to her.

00:15:07.455 --> 00:15:07.985
I got on the phone with her.

00:15:07.985 --> 00:15:13.152
I said, listen, Jewel, I don't care
if you play volleyball or not, right?

00:15:13.152 --> 00:15:17.382
Like, I'm not gonna convince you to
play volleyball, but I wanna make sure

00:15:17.382 --> 00:15:21.822
that if you decide not to do it, you're
doing it 'cause you don't wanna do it.

00:15:22.032 --> 00:15:23.862
You're not doing it to spite anybody.

00:15:24.072 --> 00:15:27.432
You're not doing it to be stubborn,
to prove you can't be pushed.

00:15:27.672 --> 00:15:29.142
Put all that stuff to the side.

00:15:29.322 --> 00:15:32.562
Put me to the side, put your mom to
the side, put everybody to the side.

00:15:32.862 --> 00:15:36.687
Think about what you actually
want to do regardless of those

00:15:36.687 --> 00:15:38.847
influences, and then do that, right?

00:15:39.117 --> 00:15:41.637
And she decided to play and
then it's like, okay, thanks

00:15:41.637 --> 00:15:42.537
for talking to her, Rob.

00:15:42.537 --> 00:15:44.282
And I'm like, look, I
didn't tell her anything.

00:15:44.857 --> 00:15:45.207
Michael: Right.

00:15:45.297 --> 00:15:49.452
Rob: I, I was just trying to advocate
for her to do what she wanted to do.

00:15:49.812 --> 00:15:54.762
And I think that that kind of stance,
in the long run, is why I have a

00:15:54.762 --> 00:15:56.082
good relationship with the kids.

00:15:56.082 --> 00:15:58.242
Like I, I never try to
force them to do anything,

00:15:58.452 --> 00:15:58.662
Michael: Right.

00:15:59.122 --> 00:16:01.542
Rob: but when they're in a position,
I want to make sure that they're

00:16:01.542 --> 00:16:02.922
doing it for the right reasons.

00:16:02.922 --> 00:16:06.162
Not, not because I said so, or
'cause their mom said so, or

00:16:06.162 --> 00:16:07.542
because someone said not to.

00:16:07.842 --> 00:16:08.802
Just forget all that.

00:16:08.802 --> 00:16:10.572
Like, what do you want?

00:16:11.022 --> 00:16:13.452
And, you know, I think
they appreciate that.

00:16:14.277 --> 00:16:14.697
Michael: For sure.

00:16:14.697 --> 00:16:15.327
Yeah, I agree.

00:16:15.327 --> 00:16:18.537
And I'm nodding along because,
like, my daughter did competitive

00:16:18.537 --> 00:16:19.947
dance for 10 years, right?

00:16:19.947 --> 00:16:22.437
And it was, like volleyball,
was a big investment, right?

00:16:22.437 --> 00:16:24.417
You gotta buy costumes and you
got all these competitions and

00:16:24.417 --> 00:16:25.587
there's travel and everything else.

00:16:25.587 --> 00:16:32.237
It's, it all adds up, but as she
entered high school, started to

00:16:32.877 --> 00:16:34.567
think more about other activities.

00:16:34.587 --> 00:16:40.182
She wanted to get into theater and into
choir and acapella and all that stuff.

00:16:40.932 --> 00:16:45.852
And she decided that she wanted to
give up competitive dance and someone

00:16:45.852 --> 00:16:47.112
told her, you can't give it up.

00:16:47.442 --> 00:16:48.522
You've been doing it too long.

00:16:48.582 --> 00:16:50.862
You have to keep doing it, especially
when you get to high school 'cause

00:16:50.862 --> 00:16:54.492
then it becomes an even bigger thing
with the competitive high school teams.

00:16:55.922 --> 00:17:03.522
And I said to her, look, if
at the end of the day, this is

00:17:03.522 --> 00:17:04.662
your life that you're living.

00:17:04.752 --> 00:17:06.792
Nobody else is living it for you, right?

00:17:06.822 --> 00:17:08.922
Like I'm not going to the dance practices.

00:17:08.952 --> 00:17:11.682
I might drop you off there, but
I'm not going to the practices.

00:17:12.042 --> 00:17:13.932
I'm not learning the routines.

00:17:14.232 --> 00:17:17.762
I'm not learning the
choreography and whatever needs

00:17:17.762 --> 00:17:19.032
to be done for dance, right?

00:17:20.172 --> 00:17:23.292
And I know nothing about dance, so I don't
really know if I'm even speaking correctly

00:17:23.292 --> 00:17:26.532
about this, but like you are the one
that has to spend that time doing that.

00:17:27.717 --> 00:17:29.727
Nobody else is spending that time for you.

00:17:30.207 --> 00:17:33.147
So, at the end of the day, you have to
decide how you wanna spend your time.

00:17:33.537 --> 00:17:35.367
I can't tell you how to spend
your time at this point.

00:17:35.367 --> 00:17:38.907
Like, you are, you know what you enjoy
doing, and you know what you wanna

00:17:38.907 --> 00:17:43.797
explore, and you know what you, you
don't know a lot about theater yet,

00:17:43.797 --> 00:17:45.027
but you wanna learn more about it.

00:17:45.147 --> 00:17:48.357
If that's more interesting than
continuing dance, then go for it.

00:17:49.107 --> 00:17:50.487
Like, it's up to you.

00:17:50.487 --> 00:17:54.597
But if you wanna keep doing dance,
I will support that, too, whichever

00:17:54.912 --> 00:17:57.762
direction you wanna go, but it's you
spending time at the end of the day I'm

00:17:57.762 --> 00:18:01.482
going through this with my son right
now, figuring out colleges, right?

00:18:01.482 --> 00:18:01.692
Right.

00:18:01.692 --> 00:18:05.592
He's like, he's got narrowed down
to his top three now and it's like,

00:18:06.462 --> 00:18:08.172
I know where I want him to go.

00:18:08.622 --> 00:18:11.322
But I don't wanna tell him that because
I don't wanna unduly influence him.

00:18:11.322 --> 00:18:15.162
I want him to decide where he
wants to go because he's the one

00:18:15.162 --> 00:18:16.422
that has to live through college.

00:18:16.842 --> 00:18:17.142
Rob: Right.

00:18:17.172 --> 00:18:17.982
Michael: He's the one
that has to go to classes.

00:18:17.982 --> 00:18:19.362
He's the one that has
to live in the dorms.

00:18:19.572 --> 00:18:20.892
He's the one that's gotta
eat his meals there.

00:18:20.892 --> 00:18:22.152
He's the one that's
gotta make friends there.

00:18:22.512 --> 00:18:26.412
Not me, not his mom,
not anybody else, right?

00:18:26.412 --> 00:18:29.442
At the end of the day, that's him.

00:18:29.562 --> 00:18:31.212
It's his life and his time.

00:18:31.932 --> 00:18:36.372
And who am I to tell him, you know,
like I can help him, you know,

00:18:36.372 --> 00:18:40.002
make decisions in terms of like,
is this the right program for me?

00:18:40.002 --> 00:18:45.042
You know, do they have the right
resources, career resources, or

00:18:45.372 --> 00:18:46.752
whatever things he might be looking for?

00:18:46.752 --> 00:18:47.712
Do they have the clubs that he wants?

00:18:47.712 --> 00:18:50.792
Like I can help him evaluate
that kind of stuff, but I'm not

00:18:50.792 --> 00:18:51.717
gonna be the one living there.

00:18:51.717 --> 00:18:53.997
I'm not gonna be the one doing the work.

00:18:54.327 --> 00:18:54.717
Rob: Yeah.

00:18:54.717 --> 00:18:54.897
Michael: Right?

00:18:54.897 --> 00:18:56.127
So, it's really not up to me.

00:18:56.127 --> 00:19:00.047
I think, like you did with your
daughter, of being like, hey,

00:19:01.587 --> 00:19:03.627
do this, this is up to you.

00:19:03.717 --> 00:19:05.517
If you wanna keep playing
volleyball, go for it.

00:19:05.517 --> 00:19:07.407
And if not, that's okay, too.

00:19:08.037 --> 00:19:09.327
Just don't do it for the wrong reasons.

00:19:09.327 --> 00:19:12.717
Like, like I, you can, you can
guide them in terms of like,

00:19:12.957 --> 00:19:14.127
don't do it spite somebody.

00:19:14.127 --> 00:19:16.497
Don't do it to prove something.

00:19:16.497 --> 00:19:17.997
Do it because that's what you wanna do.

00:19:18.672 --> 00:19:24.522
Um, so I find it really interesting
that's, that's how you, you took a

00:19:24.522 --> 00:19:28.362
similar approach to, to how I did,
and I'm kind of, I wanted to ask

00:19:28.362 --> 00:19:32.892
you also about divorce and like
how it shakes everything up, right?

00:19:32.892 --> 00:19:36.942
We've talked a little bit about this
already with, like, somebody wants the

00:19:36.972 --> 00:19:40.092
child to do one thing and you wanna
do something else, or they wanna lie.

00:19:40.092 --> 00:19:43.197
You wanna tell the truth,
whatever it may be, but it's kind

00:19:43.197 --> 00:19:44.157
of more than that also, right?

00:19:44.157 --> 00:19:45.597
Like routines get changed.

00:19:45.597 --> 00:19:46.647
Finances change.

00:19:46.707 --> 00:19:49.037
Your confidence could
even be affected by it.

00:19:49.587 --> 00:19:54.267
What helped you stay grounded and still
show up for your kids during that time?

00:19:55.282 --> 00:19:58.647
Rob: I don't, man, I don't even know
because when I think about the period

00:19:58.647 --> 00:20:02.547
right after the divorce, I feel like I
was a zombie for at least a year, right?

00:20:02.547 --> 00:20:05.547
Like, I don't think grounded is
the right, I feel like I crashed to

00:20:05.547 --> 00:20:06.807
the ground, you know what I mean?

00:20:06.807 --> 00:20:10.737
And then I'm in the middle of this,
this wreckage, but you still have these

00:20:10.737 --> 00:20:15.477
kids, so you just kind of, it almost
feels like you just do the thing, right?

00:20:15.477 --> 00:20:18.747
Like, you take them to places, you help
them with things, you do the thing.

00:20:19.497 --> 00:20:24.177
I think in that respect, you really
do try to hide the pain that you're

00:20:24.177 --> 00:20:26.547
feeling from them in that way, right?

00:20:26.547 --> 00:20:29.487
I don't, I don't feel like I
was honest about that very much.

00:20:30.807 --> 00:20:34.467
But I think you just do it for,
I, I don't even know that I did

00:20:34.467 --> 00:20:36.027
it for the, it's hard to explain.

00:20:36.027 --> 00:20:41.067
I, I distinctly remember, af-, when
I was getting divorced because a lot

00:20:41.067 --> 00:20:42.177
of things happened at the same time.

00:20:42.177 --> 00:20:43.257
I, I got divorced.

00:20:44.277 --> 00:20:46.647
The, the startup company that
I was working at went out of

00:20:46.647 --> 00:20:47.727
business, you know what I mean?

00:20:47.727 --> 00:20:53.217
I had a lot of things hit all at once,
and I thought I was, I don't know, it

00:20:53.217 --> 00:20:57.057
felt like I was over this vast abyss,
you know, like this just infinite

00:20:57.057 --> 00:21:02.007
abyss, and that I could very easily just
sink down into it and never come up.

00:21:02.307 --> 00:21:04.677
But I felt like my children
were like my life preservers.

00:21:04.857 --> 00:21:07.107
Like, I was holding onto
them, you know what I mean?

00:21:07.107 --> 00:21:11.907
And I couldn't let them down, and I
couldn't, like, stop providing for them.

00:21:11.997 --> 00:21:14.547
So, it, it gave me a reason to keep going.

00:21:14.697 --> 00:21:18.587
So, in a lot of senses, I feel like the
kids saved me and gave me the strength to

00:21:18.587 --> 00:21:24.582
do that stuff, and I don't know that I did
a whole lot at all except kind of endure

00:21:24.582 --> 00:21:26.562
it, you know, and come out the other side.

00:21:27.777 --> 00:21:30.537
Michael: That's a great metaphor of
the children being life preservers.

00:21:31.167 --> 00:21:35.277
I, when I think back now, like
when I first went through the

00:21:35.277 --> 00:21:39.147
divorce process, like, yeah, it
was, I was like a zombie, I think.

00:21:39.207 --> 00:21:42.507
Just kind of going through the
motions, but just preserving.

00:21:42.507 --> 00:21:44.157
Just maintaining, right?

00:21:44.157 --> 00:21:47.057
I wasn't trying to like
do more at that point.

00:21:47.097 --> 00:21:50.547
I think, there, I was just
kinda like, alright, I just

00:21:50.547 --> 00:21:51.777
gotta get through each day.

00:21:52.197 --> 00:21:56.307
Eventually things will settle down to
a point where, or I'll have the time

00:21:56.307 --> 00:22:01.147
to process really like what happened,
and figure out what's next, right?

00:22:01.467 --> 00:22:07.257
But I didn't want to give up because
again, like you said, the kids were,

00:22:08.862 --> 00:22:09.972
they were kinda holding me up, right?

00:22:09.972 --> 00:22:13.602
Like I was reaching up for them
saying, okay, I have to keep

00:22:13.602 --> 00:22:18.192
going forward 'cause they need
steadiness in their lives, right?

00:22:18.522 --> 00:22:18.812
Rob: Yeah.

00:22:19.422 --> 00:22:25.032
Michael: Right, and if I don't
demonstrate, you know, some form

00:22:25.032 --> 00:22:29.262
of steadiness and some sort of
ability to move forward, how can

00:22:29.262 --> 00:22:31.812
I expect them to ever do the same?

00:22:32.817 --> 00:22:37.857
And the last thing I wanna do is have them
suffer any more than what they have to go

00:22:37.857 --> 00:22:42.507
through already as children of divorced
parents, so, yeah, I think you're right.

00:22:42.507 --> 00:22:46.347
Like, the more I think about it, they were
the life preservers, like they are the

00:22:46.347 --> 00:22:51.237
ones that motivated me just to keep going
and eventually like get over that hump

00:22:51.237 --> 00:22:52.947
and get to that next phase of life, right?

00:22:53.092 --> 00:22:57.357
Rob: Yeah, it's like a giant river and
you're literally holding onto your kids,

00:22:57.537 --> 00:23:00.357
and they're helping you to float down
it until you can get to solid land.

00:23:00.942 --> 00:23:03.072
Michael: Yeah, that's,
that's a perfect metaphor.

00:23:03.822 --> 00:23:04.422
I love that.

00:23:05.382 --> 00:23:11.682
So, you know, a lot of dads will quietly
carry guilt after a divorce, right?

00:23:11.742 --> 00:23:15.092
I'm sure a lot of moms do too, but,
in this sense, I'm more focused

00:23:15.092 --> 00:23:18.082
on, like, what you experienced,
um, through your divorce.

00:23:18.202 --> 00:23:21.897
They wonder if they can, like, could they
have done something different, right?

00:23:22.317 --> 00:23:27.567
How did you navigate the emotional
side of fatherhood amidst divorce?

00:23:28.417 --> 00:23:28.497
Rob: Hmm.

00:23:29.742 --> 00:23:31.482
Can you elaborate a little on that?

00:23:32.082 --> 00:23:33.612
Because there's a lot of ways to go.

00:23:34.317 --> 00:23:35.967
Michael: Yeah, sure, for sure.

00:23:35.967 --> 00:23:40.047
I, I left it open ended because, to let
you, to kind of, to pick and choose,

00:23:40.047 --> 00:23:44.187
but I'll, I think for me, like the

00:23:46.667 --> 00:23:51.057
divorce is challenging from
a lot of perspectives, right?

00:23:51.447 --> 00:23:56.207
But the, for me at least, like there's
this, there was this feeling of failure.

00:23:57.777 --> 00:23:57.997
Right?

00:23:57.997 --> 00:24:03.027
There, how come I couldn't
maintain this relationship?

00:24:03.747 --> 00:24:08.787
How come I couldn't build a
strong base to be married for a

00:24:08.787 --> 00:24:10.307
lifetime in my first marriage?

00:24:10.847 --> 00:24:16.317
And I felt like I had failed, and
there is emotional baggage, for me, at

00:24:16.317 --> 00:24:21.162
least, that comes along with failure
or with the feeling of failure.

00:24:22.422 --> 00:24:25.272
And, to me, that translated into guilt.

00:24:25.302 --> 00:24:28.032
But it also translated into guilt
because I felt like I was letting my

00:24:28.032 --> 00:24:30.162
kids down, right, first and foremost.

00:24:31.992 --> 00:24:38.352
Like, yes, my partnership failed, but
I still had these two kids from it.

00:24:38.352 --> 00:24:47.277
And, you know, I, for me, it was like,
I dunno, I, there was this element

00:24:47.277 --> 00:24:48.507
of like, I, I could have done better.

00:24:48.507 --> 00:24:53.517
Could I have done something
better, but at the same time, I'm

00:24:53.517 --> 00:24:54.807
doing what's best for the kids.

00:24:54.867 --> 00:25:04.997
And it was really weird feeling for
me of like, okay, failed, but I also

00:25:04.997 --> 00:25:08.352
succeeded because I got out of a
situation that wasn't right for, for

00:25:08.352 --> 00:25:10.632
me and for my kids, for my family.

00:25:10.782 --> 00:25:15.222
And I feel like, or I felt like, by
getting this divorce, I was doing what

00:25:15.222 --> 00:25:16.602
was in the best interest of the kids.

00:25:17.712 --> 00:25:22.812
I guess what I'm asking is like,
was there, did you feel guilty at

00:25:22.812 --> 00:25:25.382
all during this process or when
you were going through divorce?

00:25:25.402 --> 00:25:30.282
Or was it just you were, it was more
for this was the right thing to do?

00:25:30.282 --> 00:25:34.392
I did it, kind of moved on,
and just, there wasn't much,

00:25:35.412 --> 00:25:36.452
there wasn't too much behind it.

00:25:36.452 --> 00:25:39.792
It was just, it didn't work out, and
we move on, and I didn't feel bad.

00:25:39.792 --> 00:25:41.172
It just, that was the right decision.

00:25:41.727 --> 00:25:43.557
Rob: So, I mean, there's
a lot to unpack there.

00:25:43.557 --> 00:25:45.117
Let me start from where I'm at now.

00:25:45.117 --> 00:25:48.237
So, the relationship I'm in now, right?

00:25:48.747 --> 00:25:51.147
I'm with my soulmate period, right?

00:25:51.657 --> 00:25:57.777
We spend almost my, my wife is my best
partner, helps me become a better,

00:25:57.777 --> 00:26:02.847
like from the place I'm at now looking
back on my previous marriage, I

00:26:02.847 --> 00:26:07.167
don't feel like a tremendous amount
of guilt because I don't feel like I

00:26:07.167 --> 00:26:10.947
was the kind of person, at that time,
that could have sustained anything.

00:26:10.947 --> 00:26:12.987
I was not a good partner.

00:26:13.137 --> 00:26:14.667
My wife was not a good partner.

00:26:14.667 --> 00:26:17.607
We got together when we were very
young, and we stayed together.

00:26:17.607 --> 00:26:19.167
We were high school sweethearts, right?

00:26:19.407 --> 00:26:22.047
So we got together very young
and we stayed together, and there

00:26:22.047 --> 00:26:26.127
was just a lot of immaturity
built into that relationship.

00:26:26.457 --> 00:26:30.057
I, when, when I, when, when the,
when the divorce first happened,

00:26:30.057 --> 00:26:31.257
guilt wasn't what I was feeling.

00:26:31.257 --> 00:26:32.427
I felt bitterness.

00:26:32.427 --> 00:26:34.077
I felt extreme bitterness.

00:26:34.077 --> 00:26:35.157
I felt betrayal.

00:26:35.457 --> 00:26:39.407
I felt like, like god had cast me out.

00:26:39.407 --> 00:26:41.387
It's like, what did I do to deserve this?

00:26:41.387 --> 00:26:42.617
There was a lot of self pity.

00:26:42.827 --> 00:26:47.867
I felt sorry for me, you know, and
like, I played the victim a lot.

00:26:48.587 --> 00:26:52.237
As I kind of got further from
that, I realized that I contributed

00:26:52.237 --> 00:26:55.852
a lot to the, the things that
caused the, the marriage to end.

00:26:56.122 --> 00:26:58.732
And I really realized that I
contributed to those things because

00:26:58.732 --> 00:27:00.892
of deficiencies in my own personality.

00:27:00.892 --> 00:27:01.972
Things that I had done.

00:27:01.972 --> 00:27:04.552
Things, ways that I saw things, right?

00:27:04.552 --> 00:27:09.412
Like, I just wasn't at a place
mentally or emotionally that could

00:27:09.412 --> 00:27:11.062
sustain a long-term relationship.

00:27:11.062 --> 00:27:16.252
The pain of the divorce caused me to
heal and to seek answers, which then

00:27:16.252 --> 00:27:21.602
allowed me to become a good partner and
enter into this wonderful relationship,

00:27:21.602 --> 00:27:23.252
but I just wasn't that guy back then.

00:27:23.252 --> 00:27:24.002
I was dumb.

00:27:24.002 --> 00:27:24.662
I was young.

00:27:24.662 --> 00:27:27.812
I was, like, arrogant, like
I had all these deficiencies.

00:27:27.812 --> 00:27:30.692
So, it, it went through this
thing where it's like I said,

00:27:30.692 --> 00:27:32.612
I felt bitterness, I felt rage.

00:27:32.792 --> 00:27:34.262
I felt like I was a victim.

00:27:34.262 --> 00:27:36.662
I, you know, and I felt sorry for myself.

00:27:36.662 --> 00:27:37.802
And then I was like, wait a, hold on.

00:27:38.347 --> 00:27:40.202
I, I kind of caused a lot of this stuff.

00:27:40.202 --> 00:27:41.762
I'm the reason a lot of this happened.

00:27:42.002 --> 00:27:43.712
This is actually a lot my fault.

00:27:43.982 --> 00:27:48.062
I stopped blaming my ex for her actions
as much and started working on things.

00:27:48.572 --> 00:27:52.292
And then once I kind of got to a place
where I had healed that, I was in a

00:27:52.292 --> 00:27:54.182
place, oh my God, I can be with this.

00:27:54.542 --> 00:27:59.132
I could never have been with my
wife now the way I was then, right?

00:28:00.152 --> 00:28:01.922
She's just too kind and
beautiful of a soul.

00:28:01.922 --> 00:28:06.687
She wouldn't have stuck around for it,
but, where I'm at now, it's a totally

00:28:06.687 --> 00:28:09.807
different place, so I feel like it,
I don't know, I kind of just rambled

00:28:09.807 --> 00:28:13.297
a lot, but that's kind of the process
I went through after the divorce.

00:28:14.217 --> 00:28:15.597
Michael: Yeah, that's super interesting.

00:28:17.457 --> 00:28:22.217
It, it's really hard to recognize, I
think, your own responsibility, your

00:28:22.257 --> 00:28:28.707
own action of things that necessarily
didn't, didn't necessarily go your way.

00:28:29.307 --> 00:28:34.362
Um, and I think there's a lot of,
a lot of ways you could feel going

00:28:34.362 --> 00:28:36.982
through a divorce or similar situation.

00:28:37.542 --> 00:28:38.552
It could be guilt.

00:28:38.562 --> 00:28:40.272
It could be anger.

00:28:40.272 --> 00:28:42.222
It could be like you said, bitterness.

00:28:42.522 --> 00:28:50.412
It could just be realizing that, hey,
I was, wasn't a great person then,

00:28:50.412 --> 00:28:53.232
but I'm going to, it could be like
almost motivational to be like, I'm

00:28:53.232 --> 00:29:00.417
gonna be a better person going forward
and would I pr-, appreciate most

00:29:00.417 --> 00:29:06.027
about what you said is that you found
your absolute soulmate here, right?

00:29:06.147 --> 00:29:13.827
Like the, like there was, even when as
cont-, as difficult as a divorce can be,

00:29:14.547 --> 00:29:19.497
there is opportunity on the other side,
right, and you can make, you can have

00:29:19.497 --> 00:29:21.297
the life that you've always dreamed of.

00:29:21.297 --> 00:29:22.497
You can find that partner.

00:29:23.757 --> 00:29:25.887
I lucked out and was in
the same boat as you.

00:29:25.887 --> 00:29:30.462
I found my absolute soulmate,
like the perfect person for

00:29:30.462 --> 00:29:31.602
me, for the rest of my life.

00:29:31.602 --> 00:29:32.862
I could not be happier.

00:29:32.862 --> 00:29:35.262
Like, it is the best relationship.

00:29:35.262 --> 00:29:39.132
Like we spend tons of time together,
and we enjoy every moment of it.

00:29:39.377 --> 00:29:39.667
Rob: Yeah.

00:29:40.332 --> 00:29:42.042
Michael: Right, we still get,
each get our own time or whatever,

00:29:42.042 --> 00:29:47.562
but like she is perfect for me,
and I couldn't be more grateful.

00:29:47.562 --> 00:29:52.722
And I think that my previous experience,
my first marriage, helps me appreciate

00:29:53.772 --> 00:29:55.692
my second marriage even more.

00:29:56.047 --> 00:29:56.397
Rob: Yeah.

00:29:57.157 --> 00:30:00.147
Michael: Right, 'cause it's like, wow,
I never realized how good it can be.

00:30:00.777 --> 00:30:01.797
Rob: A hundred percent.

00:30:02.127 --> 00:30:03.237
I don't think most people do.

00:30:03.417 --> 00:30:06.057
Like, a lot of times I hear about
these relationship experts and

00:30:06.057 --> 00:30:10.587
stuff, and they're talking, and it
doesn't sound anything like what I'm

00:30:10.587 --> 00:30:14.637
experiencing, but what I'm experiencing
sounds like what everybody wants.

00:30:15.097 --> 00:30:17.587
It's what I wanted before, and
like, sometimes people try to

00:30:17.587 --> 00:30:20.407
pretend like, oh yeah, it's, it's
all great, but inside it's not.

00:30:20.407 --> 00:30:24.007
Like, I think there's a disconnect
between what people are being

00:30:24.007 --> 00:30:26.107
told and what actually works.

00:30:26.637 --> 00:30:26.937
Michael: Yeah.

00:30:28.347 --> 00:30:28.647
Yeah.

00:30:28.647 --> 00:30:34.317
I think it's easy to, to throw out
advice, right, or throw out like

00:30:34.317 --> 00:30:40.887
guidance if you're a relationship
expert, but it's hard to live the

00:30:40.887 --> 00:30:44.987
experience, and once you have that lived
experience, no one's gonna tell you,

00:30:46.637 --> 00:30:47.832
you know, what your experience was.

00:30:47.832 --> 00:30:49.242
Like, you are the one
that went through it.

00:30:49.542 --> 00:30:50.982
You're the one that felt it, lived it.

00:30:51.162 --> 00:30:55.512
Right, it's the same idea of, like, I
don't want my son going to college because

00:30:55.512 --> 00:30:56.652
that's the school I want him to go to.

00:30:56.742 --> 00:30:59.412
I want him to go to college
because it's right for him.

00:30:59.412 --> 00:31:01.952
Like, he's the one that's gotta
live it, right, and he'll have

00:31:01.952 --> 00:31:03.672
that experience and understanding.

00:31:03.822 --> 00:31:06.312
I won't really know what
college is like for him.

00:31:06.312 --> 00:31:08.562
I'll know what college
is like for me, right?

00:31:09.392 --> 00:31:13.602
So, it, but it's same thing with marriage
of like, you don't know until you do it.

00:31:14.787 --> 00:31:17.097
Everyone could tell you, oh,
this is how it's going to be.

00:31:18.057 --> 00:31:26.137
You don't know, right, but there was,
a, somebody, there was a guy whose

00:31:28.197 --> 00:31:31.257
kid is the same age as my son,
and so they went to preschool

00:31:31.257 --> 00:31:34.482
together, and he got divorced
while they were still in preschool.

00:31:34.482 --> 00:31:35.282
He got divorced before me.

00:31:36.162 --> 00:31:39.492
He got remarried a few years later,
and I ran into him and he comes up

00:31:39.492 --> 00:31:45.642
to me and he says, this is before I
had met my, my now wife, and I just

00:31:45.642 --> 00:31:46.482
was going through my divorce then.

00:31:46.482 --> 00:31:49.242
He goes, second marriage is the
best marriage you'll ever have.

00:31:49.602 --> 00:31:53.592
He's like, it is the, you'll, this is
the best thing that ever happened to

00:31:53.592 --> 00:31:58.452
me 'cause I knew what didn't work in
the first one, and now I know what I

00:31:58.452 --> 00:32:02.752
want and what's gonna work for me and
what, how I can contribute better, and

00:32:02.972 --> 00:32:06.117
it just makes, makes it so much better.

00:32:06.117 --> 00:32:09.517
And the second one is worth everything
you went through to get to that point.

00:32:09.527 --> 00:32:10.287
Rob: A hundred percent.

00:32:11.497 --> 00:32:12.337
Michael: I didn't know it at the time.

00:32:12.337 --> 00:32:15.327
I thought he was just like, oh, he
just got lucky the second time around.

00:32:15.327 --> 00:32:21.657
But like, no, it, like, he's right
and it's, it's, it's wild, right,

00:32:21.657 --> 00:32:27.477
because you got, went from something so
negative to something so positive and...

00:32:27.562 --> 00:32:29.712
Rob: well, when you're in that first one
and you're trying to make it work, right,

00:32:29.712 --> 00:32:31.092
you're kind of doing all this stuff.

00:32:31.362 --> 00:32:33.402
You don't, it's like the
second kid, too, right?

00:32:33.402 --> 00:32:35.892
Like the first kid you're,
you're super like, oh my God,

00:32:35.892 --> 00:32:36.792
we're gonna clean everything.

00:32:36.792 --> 00:32:39.732
We're gonna baby proof everything,
like the littlest thing.

00:32:40.062 --> 00:32:41.682
And then you realize no
kids are pretty durable.

00:32:42.142 --> 00:32:42.772
You know what I mean?

00:32:42.772 --> 00:32:46.552
That you don't need to panic so much
about every, oh, they're in the 96th

00:32:46.552 --> 00:32:50.182
percentile ,and they need to be in the
98th percentile and you know what I mean?

00:32:50.182 --> 00:32:52.012
Like, I, I think marriages
are like that, too.

00:32:52.222 --> 00:32:56.992
The thing I got out of divorce, what,
that was really helpful to me was

00:32:57.282 --> 00:33:02.442
when I felt like I was at rock bottom
after that, I knew absolutely what I

00:33:02.442 --> 00:33:04.632
was not going to ever tolerate again.

00:33:05.022 --> 00:33:07.962
Like, there was a lot of stuff that
I tolerated to keep the relationship

00:33:07.962 --> 00:33:11.922
going, and for the most part I'm
pretty easy going in, in relationships.

00:33:11.922 --> 00:33:16.162
But when, when that whole divorce
was going on, I absolutely, for

00:33:16.212 --> 00:33:19.962
certain knew, like, I will never
tolerate this, this, this, and this.

00:33:20.142 --> 00:33:22.452
That's never gonna happen again, you know?

00:33:22.542 --> 00:33:24.612
And it worked great.

00:33:25.482 --> 00:33:26.442
Michael: That's such a great perspective.

00:33:26.652 --> 00:33:29.652
I think I did that and I didn't
realize I was doing that, right, of

00:33:29.652 --> 00:33:34.902
like, I wasn't going to tolerate these
things, like certain things that, you

00:33:34.902 --> 00:33:36.552
know, life's too short to put up with

00:33:36.612 --> 00:33:37.062
Rob: Yeah.

00:33:37.392 --> 00:33:43.362
Michael: some of these things, and I
don't, in the moment, I knew those things

00:33:43.472 --> 00:33:47.892
were bothering me, right, but I didn't, I
didn't like create a checklist or anything

00:33:47.892 --> 00:33:51.952
of like, okay, my next marriage, this
is what, it's gotta check these boxes.

00:33:51.952 --> 00:33:55.602
But I think, somewhere, in the back of
my mind I was thinking like, okay, I'm

00:33:55.602 --> 00:33:57.432
not going to go through that again.

00:33:57.657 --> 00:33:58.587
Rob: Yeah, exactly.

00:33:58.932 --> 00:34:00.602
Michael: I want to find the
person, right, is that is not

00:34:00.602 --> 00:34:02.982
gonna put me in that situation
or put me in that position again.

00:34:03.837 --> 00:34:05.007
Rob: Yeah, a hundred percent.

00:34:05.302 --> 00:34:06.127
Michael: Yeah, it's such
a great perspective.

00:34:06.177 --> 00:34:09.747
Rob: It gives you clarity, like, you know,
like I did all these things and none of

00:34:09.747 --> 00:34:13.977
that worked, like all this effort and
none of it worked or was even appreciated.

00:34:14.277 --> 00:34:16.497
You know, I'm not going
through that again.

00:34:16.922 --> 00:34:17.062
Michael: Yep.

00:34:17.532 --> 00:34:18.852
Yeah, that's, love that.

00:34:19.162 --> 00:34:22.512
So, I want to change directions
a little bit here and ask you

00:34:22.512 --> 00:34:24.312
about your work a little bit more.

00:34:24.312 --> 00:34:27.522
You eventually stepped away
from a traditional job and

00:34:27.522 --> 00:34:28.662
started building your own path.

00:34:29.022 --> 00:34:29.442
Rob: Yeah.

00:34:29.692 --> 00:34:30.912
Michael: What gave you
the confidence to do that?

00:34:31.692 --> 00:34:33.192
Rob: I don't even know about confidence.

00:34:33.192 --> 00:34:38.712
Like I, so, when my, when my first
son was born, this is 2001, right,

00:34:38.712 --> 00:34:40.722
I just decided I wanted to be there.

00:34:40.722 --> 00:34:43.992
So up until that point, I was
really loving the corporate life.

00:34:44.022 --> 00:34:47.982
I had started out in, I went to the
University of Oklahoma, and I had started

00:34:47.982 --> 00:34:50.607
a, a web consulting thing of my own.

00:34:50.667 --> 00:34:51.777
It was just my own company.

00:34:52.047 --> 00:34:55.827
I was doing web consulting, and then I
got a job in Silicon Valley, and I started

00:34:55.827 --> 00:34:59.607
working at startups there, and it was like
super fast and exciting, really high pace.

00:35:00.957 --> 00:35:04.107
Moved out to Hawaii 'cause I
wanted to surf more, you know.

00:35:04.887 --> 00:35:05.487
I liked the weather.

00:35:05.487 --> 00:35:08.787
I had, like I said, I was a military
brat, so I'd lived in Hawaii as a kid.

00:35:09.027 --> 00:35:10.257
So I decided to go back out there.

00:35:10.257 --> 00:35:13.857
I started working at the
top ad agency out there.

00:35:14.307 --> 00:35:18.907
And, again, really high pace, you
know, we're doing things for like

00:35:18.907 --> 00:35:22.137
Bank of Hawaii and Hawaiian Airlines
and the government of Japan and all

00:35:22.137 --> 00:35:24.597
these cool hotels and resorts, right?

00:35:25.647 --> 00:35:26.877
Very high-paced stuff.

00:35:26.877 --> 00:35:28.467
I loved that whole corporate life.

00:35:29.007 --> 00:35:31.647
And then, when I was gonna have
my first son, I, I was just

00:35:31.647 --> 00:35:35.187
thinking, hmm, I, I don't know.

00:35:35.187 --> 00:35:38.097
It all just came into question
for me what I wanted to do, and I

00:35:38.097 --> 00:35:40.947
decided I was gonna start working
from home from that point on.

00:35:41.157 --> 00:35:46.047
And this was in 2000, like I said,
2001, home work wasn't a big deal back

00:35:46.047 --> 00:35:48.777
then, but I have been remote since then.

00:35:49.197 --> 00:35:50.937
I've never gone back to the office.

00:35:51.357 --> 00:35:53.487
So, I, I don't know
that it was confidence.

00:35:53.487 --> 00:35:55.287
I just decided this is what I'm gonna do.

00:35:55.287 --> 00:35:56.367
I'm gonna work from home.

00:35:56.727 --> 00:36:00.177
I'm gonna hang out with my kids,
you know, and that's what I did.

00:36:01.122 --> 00:36:01.752
Michael: That's awesome.

00:36:02.982 --> 00:36:03.612
I love that.

00:36:04.482 --> 00:36:08.202
Again, you show, you're demonstrating like
you are following your passions, right?

00:36:08.877 --> 00:36:11.037
Rob: Yeah, for better or worse.

00:36:12.282 --> 00:36:16.782
Michael: Sure, sure, but like, then you
learn from those experiences and figure

00:36:16.782 --> 00:36:21.552
out what your next passions are, and
you seem to just keep creating newer and

00:36:21.552 --> 00:36:23.612
cooler things, like, and you juggle...

00:36:23.612 --> 00:36:24.742
Rob: It doesn't always work though, dude.

00:36:24.932 --> 00:36:28.342
Like, there's a lot of times where
you'll like, like fall on your ass.

00:36:29.122 --> 00:36:29.342
Michael: Yep.

00:36:29.902 --> 00:36:33.222
Yeah, no, I, right there with you because
I like, I've had my own business for

00:36:33.732 --> 00:36:39.762
20-something years, and there's been
many failures along the way, right?

00:36:39.762 --> 00:36:43.782
And, like, especially in today's
day and age, with the economy the

00:36:43.782 --> 00:36:46.752
way it is and tariffs and everything
else that's going on, like things

00:36:46.802 --> 00:36:48.822
can get really tough, right?

00:36:49.627 --> 00:36:49.917
Rob: Yeah.

00:36:50.422 --> 00:36:52.662
Michael: But you gotta keep showing
up, and it's hard to show up for

00:36:52.662 --> 00:36:53.887
things you're not very interested in.

00:36:54.882 --> 00:36:57.882
Rob: Well, okay, so I was a
senior systems analyst, right?

00:36:57.882 --> 00:36:58.782
I had two kids.

00:36:58.932 --> 00:37:00.402
I had a mortgage in Hawaii.

00:37:01.122 --> 00:37:04.842
And I decided I was going to
quit my very well paying job to

00:37:04.842 --> 00:37:07.932
be a full-time salsa instructor,
right, because that's my dream.

00:37:08.262 --> 00:37:12.432
So I got a, I got a salsa studio
right on, it was right across from the

00:37:12.432 --> 00:37:14.532
convention center in Hawaii, downtown.

00:37:14.742 --> 00:37:16.092
Like, all the cars driving past.

00:37:16.092 --> 00:37:19.132
There was like this
beautiful like glass window.

00:37:19.132 --> 00:37:21.592
You could see people, and it's
like, this is my dream, right?

00:37:21.952 --> 00:37:24.292
So I'm feeling real good about myself.

00:37:24.292 --> 00:37:25.852
I'm on my path, I'm doing my thing.

00:37:26.182 --> 00:37:27.442
Advertising, right?

00:37:27.442 --> 00:37:28.972
Everyone's like, oh yeah,
this is gonna be great.

00:37:28.972 --> 00:37:30.142
We're gonna totally support you.

00:37:30.802 --> 00:37:33.832
The first class that I
had, right, I get there.

00:37:33.832 --> 00:37:34.582
It was at seven.

00:37:34.582 --> 00:37:36.862
I get there early, I'm,
I clean the floors.

00:37:36.862 --> 00:37:38.812
I wipe, wipe the mirrors.

00:37:38.812 --> 00:37:40.042
I got the music already.

00:37:40.767 --> 00:37:41.807
Class starts at 7.

00:37:41.807 --> 00:37:43.347
6:45, no one's there, right?

00:37:43.347 --> 00:37:44.787
I'm like, well, you
know, it's a new place.

00:37:44.787 --> 00:37:45.387
First time.

00:37:45.747 --> 00:37:46.827
They gotta see what's going on.

00:37:47.587 --> 00:37:48.897
6:50, no one's there.

00:37:48.897 --> 00:37:50.577
I'm like, hmm, well,
maybe there's no parking.

00:37:50.577 --> 00:37:51.477
They're looking for parking.

00:37:51.747 --> 00:37:53.547
6:55, nobody's there.

00:37:53.967 --> 00:37:56.487
I'm like, okay, someone
should be here by now, right?

00:37:56.487 --> 00:37:58.137
Seven o'clock, nobody there.

00:37:59.247 --> 00:38:04.377
I'm, like, thinking, okay, well, you
know, like, well, just don't panic.

00:38:04.467 --> 00:38:05.127
You're cool.

00:38:05.457 --> 00:38:06.657
7:15, nobody there.

00:38:06.657 --> 00:38:08.832
I'm like, what have I done?

00:38:08.952 --> 00:38:10.362
Well, can I get my job back?

00:38:10.782 --> 00:38:11.047
You know what I mean?

00:38:11.802 --> 00:38:14.322
Well, they take me, I'll tell
'em, I was just joking, you know.

00:38:15.732 --> 00:38:18.492
All of a sudden it's like my
kids' diapers, the mortgage, my

00:38:18.492 --> 00:38:21.402
car, you know, all that stuff
just hit me like a ton of bricks.

00:38:22.062 --> 00:38:25.302
I survived it, but like I said, sometimes
you have these ideas that you're gonna go

00:38:25.302 --> 00:38:29.662
follow this thing, and you think it'll go
one way, and it just absolutely doesn't.

00:38:30.657 --> 00:38:31.347
Michael: Absolutely.

00:38:31.707 --> 00:38:32.157
Absolutely.

00:38:32.157 --> 00:38:37.322
It's a great, great warning
for, for everyone out there.

00:38:38.582 --> 00:38:44.847
So you've faced setbacks both in life
and work, but you've continued to

00:38:44.847 --> 00:38:50.482
create and build and, you know, we've
talked a lot about, you know, your

00:38:51.172 --> 00:38:56.512
film stuff, and you write books, what
helps you keep moving forward when

00:38:56.512 --> 00:38:58.372
things don't go the way you hoped?

00:38:59.212 --> 00:39:00.982
Rob: Well, okay, so I'm a writer, right?

00:39:00.982 --> 00:39:05.272
Like, and think about your, think about
your life in terms of a story, right?

00:39:05.302 --> 00:39:07.912
What if, what if it was just like
he did well and then he did well,

00:39:07.912 --> 00:39:10.042
and then he did well, and then he
did well, and then he died, right?

00:39:10.042 --> 00:39:12.772
That's the worst possible story, you know?

00:39:12.772 --> 00:39:16.702
And plus like in jiu-jitsu,
we have a saying, ass whoop

00:39:16.702 --> 00:39:19.432
is the best teacher, right?

00:39:19.432 --> 00:39:22.612
So, I think like, if you look at
your life from the lens of a story,

00:39:23.042 --> 00:39:27.787
then, it, you need to have both good
and bad for it to be interesting.

00:39:27.787 --> 00:39:30.817
And in order for either one of, like
to have great things happen or to

00:39:30.817 --> 00:39:33.247
have terrible things happen, you
have to be willing to take risks.

00:39:33.727 --> 00:39:35.407
And I enjoy risks.

00:39:35.467 --> 00:39:36.637
I'm not risk averse.

00:39:36.637 --> 00:39:38.227
I'm not confrontation averse.

00:39:38.587 --> 00:39:40.987
So I, it's just something
that's kind of in my nature.

00:39:41.347 --> 00:39:46.187
And then, I feel like you learn, like I
learned, we, we talked about even divorce,

00:39:46.187 --> 00:39:50.147
like the lessons you learn in life, like
you learn more from your failures than

00:39:50.147 --> 00:39:55.097
you do from your successes, I feel like,
so, if, if you can kind of, plus dude,

00:39:55.097 --> 00:39:59.267
if you just step back, like while it's
happening to you, it's not funny, right?

00:39:59.507 --> 00:40:02.777
But if you give a little distance
and you step back sometimes it's

00:40:02.777 --> 00:40:04.967
just hilarious how bad things can go.

00:40:05.207 --> 00:40:07.727
You're just like, oh my
God, this is, this is funny.

00:40:08.027 --> 00:40:12.057
If it wasn't happening to me right now,
it would be like funnier, but this is

00:40:12.332 --> 00:40:14.312
kind of funny how bad this is right now.

00:40:14.787 --> 00:40:15.147
Michael: Right.

00:40:15.567 --> 00:40:16.127
Exactly.

00:40:16.167 --> 00:40:16.637
Exactly.

00:40:16.637 --> 00:40:20.857
And again, it's, you live
those experiences, so you

00:40:20.887 --> 00:40:21.787
take something from them.

00:40:21.787 --> 00:40:26.527
So even if they don't go right,
they kind of can help you figure

00:40:26.527 --> 00:40:27.697
out what you wanna do next.

00:40:27.782 --> 00:40:28.952
Rob: And it gives you material.

00:40:29.257 --> 00:40:29.557
Michael: Right.

00:40:29.557 --> 00:40:31.777
It gives you material, especially
if you're a writer or a comedian

00:40:31.877 --> 00:40:33.387
like yourself, like it does...

00:40:33.987 --> 00:40:36.302
Rob: Yeah, just like write it in
the notebook, like, there we go.

00:40:36.407 --> 00:40:37.402
Michael: Yeah, you never know.

00:40:37.452 --> 00:40:40.062
So, I wanna get your advice on a
couple things before we wrap up.

00:40:40.352 --> 00:40:40.642
Rob: Okay.

00:40:40.792 --> 00:40:44.112
Michael: For dads who are still in
the thick of raising kids, what are

00:40:44.112 --> 00:40:47.502
some things you wish you worried less
about when your kids were younger?

00:40:49.282 --> 00:40:49.502
Rob: Huh.

00:40:51.267 --> 00:40:51.657
I don't know.

00:40:51.682 --> 00:40:56.187
I, I, I think this is more of a, a
meta kind of answer, but I, I think

00:40:56.187 --> 00:40:57.657
the answer to this is outcomes.

00:40:58.497 --> 00:41:02.457
I think the mistake that I made with my
kids is the mistake that was made with me.

00:41:03.177 --> 00:41:07.707
So my parent, my, my dad came over
here like, so my, my dad's side of the

00:41:07.707 --> 00:41:11.247
fam-, both my parents were immigrants,
but my dad's side came over here

00:41:11.487 --> 00:41:12.975
from the Philippines and had nothing.

00:41:13.025 --> 00:41:14.345
They worked in the fields.

00:41:14.435 --> 00:41:19.970
They had nothing, and, you know, within
a little while they were like homeowners

00:41:19.970 --> 00:41:21.440
and landowners, they did really well.

00:41:21.650 --> 00:41:24.650
Right, but there was this very
rigid outcome-based mentality

00:41:24.650 --> 00:41:26.300
about how you do that, right?

00:41:26.420 --> 00:41:27.620
And that was transferred to me.

00:41:27.620 --> 00:41:31.520
So when I was growing up, it didn't
matter how much of a dick I was or

00:41:31.520 --> 00:41:32.900
like anything, as long as I won.

00:41:33.260 --> 00:41:37.125
Get straight A's in school, win the
tournament, you know what I mean?

00:41:37.125 --> 00:41:39.645
In sports, like get the
scholarship to college.

00:41:39.645 --> 00:41:41.565
I, I did all those things, right?

00:41:41.565 --> 00:41:43.305
I was like number one on my tennis team.

00:41:43.305 --> 00:41:44.685
I got straight A's in school.

00:41:44.685 --> 00:41:47.055
I got a full ride to college on academics.

00:41:47.055 --> 00:41:52.250
Like, I did all the things, but my
mindset was all outcome based, and I

00:41:52.250 --> 00:41:56.150
feel like it made me a bit toxic, and it
was one of the things that contributed,

00:41:56.150 --> 00:42:00.020
like I think to the failure of my first
marriage is that kind of toxic mentality.

00:42:00.200 --> 00:42:03.980
What my, what my current wife kind of
taught me was a different approach.

00:42:04.370 --> 00:42:09.020
And now I like to focus more
on effort and process, right?

00:42:09.260 --> 00:42:13.640
Because if, if your outcome based, you
spend your whole life as a loser, right?

00:42:13.640 --> 00:42:17.525
A lot of people that are goal oriented
are really just, they spend all their

00:42:17.525 --> 00:42:20.405
time as losers, no matter how much
they win 'cause what happens is you

00:42:20.405 --> 00:42:22.745
set a goal, and that's the thing.

00:42:22.745 --> 00:42:27.335
And if you hit the goal, at that point,
you are a winner, but while you're working

00:42:27.335 --> 00:42:29.735
towards the goal, you're a loser, right?

00:42:29.945 --> 00:42:34.325
So, it's like you spend 99% of your time
as a loser, and then if you succeed for

00:42:34.325 --> 00:42:35.795
a little bit of a time, you're a winner.

00:42:35.945 --> 00:42:39.875
And then you have to set another goal, and
now you're a loser again until you hit it.

00:42:39.875 --> 00:42:42.995
So you have these brief moments
of feeling like a winner.

00:42:42.995 --> 00:42:45.725
Whereas if you base it on
process and effort, right?

00:42:46.820 --> 00:42:49.910
Did I like, like say you
want to get, I don't know, in

00:42:49.910 --> 00:42:51.020
shape or something like that.

00:42:51.050 --> 00:42:52.010
Did I work out today?

00:42:52.310 --> 00:42:53.000
You know, I did.

00:42:53.000 --> 00:42:53.840
I'm a winner today.

00:42:54.140 --> 00:42:55.370
Did I try my hardest today?

00:42:55.400 --> 00:42:55.820
I did.

00:42:55.820 --> 00:42:56.570
I'm a winner today.

00:42:56.750 --> 00:42:59.330
If you just focus on the process and
the effort, the result will come.

00:43:00.020 --> 00:43:03.920
So I think that was a big shift
that happened to me, and I feel

00:43:03.920 --> 00:43:06.290
like it happened a bit too late.

00:43:06.290 --> 00:43:10.760
I, I think I was very hard on
my kids earlier on with that.

00:43:10.760 --> 00:43:13.160
And I, I wish I could have
changed that approach.

00:43:14.030 --> 00:43:16.040
I still want 'em to be successful, right?

00:43:16.040 --> 00:43:19.880
But I think that this is a better, more
healthy way to achieve that success.

00:43:20.360 --> 00:43:21.080
Michael: Absolutely.

00:43:21.320 --> 00:43:21.680
Absolutely.

00:43:21.680 --> 00:43:27.380
That's, it's not something that
immediately come to my mind, but it

00:43:27.380 --> 00:43:31.760
makes all the sense in the world of what
you just said of like, we don't need

00:43:31.760 --> 00:43:34.100
to be so outcome-based with our kids.

00:43:34.160 --> 00:43:39.140
And really, it's the process,
the experience, the what you take

00:43:39.140 --> 00:43:44.340
from it that is more valuable
than whatever the end result is.

00:43:45.510 --> 00:43:47.450
And it's, it's great advice.

00:43:47.450 --> 00:43:47.810
I love it.

00:43:47.810 --> 00:43:52.355
So, on the flip side, what are
some moments or choices you're

00:43:52.360 --> 00:43:54.110
really glad you made as a dad?

00:43:54.860 --> 00:43:56.990
Rob: I mean the work from
home thing, obviously, right?

00:43:56.990 --> 00:43:58.790
I got to go to all the practices.

00:43:58.790 --> 00:44:02.570
I got to be there for all the
things, and surprisingly enough,

00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:06.320
getting divorced, that was one of
the best decisions I ever made.

00:44:06.320 --> 00:44:08.480
It was the toughest, one of the
toughest things I ever went through,

00:44:08.625 --> 00:44:13.700
but had I stayed married, like
the toxicity in that relationship

00:44:13.700 --> 00:44:15.560
would've probably poisoned my kids.

00:44:15.560 --> 00:44:19.130
I would, I don't even know what
kind of a dickhead I would be today.

00:44:19.130 --> 00:44:22.040
You know, like, getting divorced
was the right thing to do,

00:44:22.370 --> 00:44:23.510
and I'm glad that we did it.

00:44:23.510 --> 00:44:28.690
It was hard for the kids, but I think
looking at how they all turned out now,

00:44:31.560 --> 00:44:32.735
it, it worked out.

00:44:32.765 --> 00:44:36.695
Like, I, I really, 'cause I feel
like my ex and her husband model

00:44:36.695 --> 00:44:37.955
a good relationship for the kids.

00:44:38.135 --> 00:44:42.365
Me and my wife model a healthy
relationship, and there's really

00:44:42.605 --> 00:44:44.375
not very much tension anymore.

00:44:44.675 --> 00:44:45.635
You know, they don't see that.

00:44:45.635 --> 00:44:47.765
When we were getting divorced,
there was fights all the time.

00:44:48.035 --> 00:44:49.235
We were yelling at each other.

00:44:49.415 --> 00:44:51.620
There was all these intense
negative emotions in the house.

00:44:52.055 --> 00:44:56.520
And since then, like honestly, like
my, my wife and I hardly ever fight.

00:44:56.520 --> 00:44:58.770
We, we rarely, rarely have conflict.

00:44:59.460 --> 00:45:02.670
And the kids being in that kind of
environment, I think is way healthier.

00:45:03.410 --> 00:45:04.040
Michael: Absolutely.

00:45:04.370 --> 00:45:04.700
Absolutely.

00:45:04.700 --> 00:45:08.810
That's, my wife and I tried to model
what a healthy relationship should

00:45:08.840 --> 00:45:11.210
look like for the kids 'cause they've
seen what an unhealthy relationship

00:45:11.210 --> 00:45:15.530
is when it leads to divorce, so our
primary goal on a day-to-day basis

00:45:15.530 --> 00:45:17.330
is to model a healthy relationship.

00:45:17.780 --> 00:45:20.690
And, fortunately, we just don't
seem to ever fight, which she

00:45:20.690 --> 00:45:23.270
thinks is weird, I think is great.

00:45:23.540 --> 00:45:24.755
Rob: I don't think that's weird at all.

00:45:25.420 --> 00:45:26.400
Michael: Yeah, right.

00:45:26.400 --> 00:45:27.920
I, we just get along.

00:45:28.040 --> 00:45:32.000
It just, it works and yeah, I love that.

00:45:32.870 --> 00:45:38.930
Alright, so we're gonna go from heavy
topics to something completely unserious.

00:45:39.200 --> 00:45:40.700
Speed round has nothing
to do with anything.

00:45:40.700 --> 00:45:41.960
Five quick questions for you.

00:45:42.755 --> 00:45:45.905
Starting with, what's the first kids
show theme song that comes to mind?

00:45:46.115 --> 00:45:46.535
Rob: Barney.

00:45:47.255 --> 00:45:47.675
Michael: Barney.

00:45:47.765 --> 00:45:48.125
Okay.

00:45:48.535 --> 00:45:48.955
Rob: Barney.

00:45:49.355 --> 00:45:49.635
Absolutely.

00:45:50.075 --> 00:45:50.345
Michael: Yep.

00:45:51.065 --> 00:45:52.265
What was your very first job?

00:45:53.390 --> 00:45:53.840
Rob: Okay.

00:45:53.900 --> 00:45:55.010
Hustle or job?

00:45:56.825 --> 00:45:58.095
Michael: I'll take either answer or both.

00:45:58.250 --> 00:46:02.720
Rob: My, okay, my first hustle, I was
in first or second grade in Hawaii.

00:46:02.930 --> 00:46:04.190
They had a big hurricane.

00:46:04.940 --> 00:46:08.360
Me and my friends got a gang together,
and we went around cleaning up people's,

00:46:08.390 --> 00:46:11.960
like we got, we just stole a bunch
of garbage bags from our parents.

00:46:12.170 --> 00:46:15.920
Went around cleaning yards all over
the base and made a ton of money.

00:46:16.460 --> 00:46:16.820
Michael: Wow.

00:46:16.820 --> 00:46:18.470
In, in first grade?

00:46:18.815 --> 00:46:19.475
Rob: We were little.

00:46:19.835 --> 00:46:20.255
Yeah.

00:46:20.470 --> 00:46:20.585
Michael: Wow, that's awesome.

00:46:20.585 --> 00:46:23.495
Rob: I remember I came home and you, do
you remember the, like, most people don't

00:46:23.495 --> 00:46:27.695
remember the eighties, but back in the
day, having a 20 was a big deal, right?

00:46:27.695 --> 00:46:28.085
Michael: Yes.

00:46:28.245 --> 00:46:31.155
Rob: And I had a stack of twenties, and
my dad was like, where did you get that?

00:46:32.105 --> 00:46:32.405
Michael: Yeah.

00:46:33.305 --> 00:46:33.965
That's amazing.

00:46:34.325 --> 00:46:34.925
That's awesome.

00:46:36.245 --> 00:46:38.465
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:46:38.465 --> 00:46:40.205
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:46:41.490 --> 00:46:42.680
Rob: Toddler-sized T-Rex.

00:46:42.680 --> 00:46:44.720
It sounds very cute, and you
could probably wrestle with it.

00:46:48.125 --> 00:46:48.665
Michael: Love that.

00:46:48.755 --> 00:46:49.365
That's a great answer.

00:46:49.385 --> 00:46:52.055
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:46:52.220 --> 00:46:53.030
Rob: I got it, dude.

00:46:53.030 --> 00:46:55.100
It's Back That Azz Up by Juvenile.

00:46:56.090 --> 00:46:59.240
Bro, every time we do this
at the club, it turns up.

00:46:59.390 --> 00:47:02.000
Like, any club I'm at when
they have karaoke, and I do

00:47:02.000 --> 00:47:03.740
Back That Azz Up, it turns up.

00:47:03.740 --> 00:47:04.970
The whole club will be twerking.

00:47:06.620 --> 00:47:07.040
Michael: I bet.

00:47:07.080 --> 00:47:09.965
I never thought about that, but that
makes all the sense in the world.

00:47:10.295 --> 00:47:11.645
Rob: Yeah, dude, you should do it.

00:47:11.645 --> 00:47:13.085
Dude, you would kill with that.

00:47:13.775 --> 00:47:16.325
Michael: That's well
beyond my capabilities.

00:47:18.005 --> 00:47:19.935
I've got my own songs, but
that, that ain't one of 'em.

00:47:19.955 --> 00:47:22.595
Rob: But if you did, the
whole place would go crazy.

00:47:23.670 --> 00:47:23.780
Michael: Right.

00:47:23.780 --> 00:47:25.270
They would definitely, I would
definitely get some looks.

00:47:25.655 --> 00:47:27.125
Rob: No one would expect it.

00:47:27.245 --> 00:47:28.235
They would not expect it.

00:47:29.720 --> 00:47:30.260
Michael: For sure.

00:47:30.520 --> 00:47:31.100
Alright, last one.

00:47:31.100 --> 00:47:32.900
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

00:47:32.900 --> 00:47:34.400
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

00:47:34.865 --> 00:47:37.325
Rob: Oh man, I think, okay, it's sand.

00:47:37.625 --> 00:47:38.285
Sand.

00:47:38.395 --> 00:47:38.685
Michael: Okay.

00:47:38.825 --> 00:47:41.525
Rob: When I first got to Hawaii,
I kept getting beat up by these

00:47:41.645 --> 00:47:43.805
giant Samoan kids in school.

00:47:44.195 --> 00:47:48.035
They were like huge, and they just beat me
up at recess all the time for no reason.

00:47:48.200 --> 00:47:50.465
So I, I started carrying
sand in my pocket.

00:47:50.465 --> 00:47:53.525
So, when they tried to beat me up,
I just flick it at 'em and run away.

00:47:55.070 --> 00:47:55.640
Michael: Smart.

00:47:56.780 --> 00:47:57.710
Gotta work with what you got.

00:47:57.920 --> 00:47:59.540
Rob: You gotta work with what you got.

00:48:01.100 --> 00:48:01.640
Michael: That's great.

00:48:01.940 --> 00:48:03.140
Rob, I appreciate you joining me.

00:48:03.140 --> 00:48:05.960
Before we wrap up, I wanna give you the
chance to share anything you're working

00:48:05.960 --> 00:48:07.580
on right now or, or building right now.

00:48:08.000 --> 00:48:09.470
What would you like listeners
to know about or where can

00:48:09.470 --> 00:48:10.160
they go follow your work?

00:48:11.480 --> 00:48:13.970
Rob: I mean, if you want to, there's
not really a place to follow my work.

00:48:14.110 --> 00:48:16.520
RobCapili.com has some old projects.

00:48:16.520 --> 00:48:20.690
I haven't updated it, but I
am working on, as you know, a

00:48:20.690 --> 00:48:22.490
series called Grown Ass Men.

00:48:22.790 --> 00:48:26.930
And this is a series that I wrote
about my experiences getting divorced

00:48:27.200 --> 00:48:29.630
and a lot of my buddies experiences.

00:48:29.840 --> 00:48:32.180
So this is kind of for guys
like us that have gone through

00:48:32.180 --> 00:48:34.880
divorce and just, it's just funny.

00:48:34.910 --> 00:48:38.735
It's funny, it's heartbreaking, and
it's about the things that we went

00:48:38.735 --> 00:48:41.795
through 'cause one of the things that I
really noticed going through divorce is

00:48:41.795 --> 00:48:44.735
like, nobody cares about guys, right?

00:48:44.735 --> 00:48:48.335
Like, everyone's about like, oh,
how to your ex? Or the, the, the

00:48:48.335 --> 00:48:49.595
woman is like, how are you doing?

00:48:49.595 --> 00:48:50.075
Are you okay?

00:48:50.285 --> 00:48:53.435
But nobody cares about guys at all.

00:48:53.435 --> 00:48:55.115
Like, we just don't exist.

00:48:55.115 --> 00:48:56.075
No one cares how we feel.

00:48:56.375 --> 00:49:01.715
So, I wrote this series for us,
so if anyone has stories or ideas

00:49:01.715 --> 00:49:05.405
or things they wanna contribute
to this, to this series that I'm

00:49:05.505 --> 00:49:07.335
writing, Grown Ass Men, hit me up.

00:49:07.705 --> 00:49:08.545
I'd love to talk with you.

00:49:09.440 --> 00:49:09.800
Michael: Awesome.

00:49:10.160 --> 00:49:10.910
Appreciate that.

00:49:11.300 --> 00:49:13.910
Rob, thank you again for joining
me for this conversation.

00:49:13.910 --> 00:49:19.205
Your willingness to talk openly about
rebuilding after divorce and kind of

00:49:19.205 --> 00:49:23.375
going through that whole process and
the, the mindset you had for, for

00:49:23.375 --> 00:49:28.175
raising your kids, it was so down
to earth and so practical, so real.

00:49:28.265 --> 00:49:33.485
And you do all that and then you
go and create these cool things,

00:49:33.515 --> 00:49:34.865
like all these cool things, right?

00:49:35.045 --> 00:49:39.515
Like I know you just undersold yourself
there and talking about like this web

00:49:39.515 --> 00:49:43.210
series you're working on, and you've
got, you know, you did your, you've got

00:49:43.210 --> 00:49:46.570
the books that you've either edited or
wrote yourself, like Lovers Quarrel,

00:49:46.570 --> 00:49:50.410
and you've got so many different
cool things you're doing in AI.

00:49:50.410 --> 00:49:54.160
It's like how you balance all that,
it's just always so, so impressive.

00:49:54.160 --> 00:49:59.650
And you do it with such humility and
such grace, but also really fun, right?

00:49:59.650 --> 00:50:02.710
Like, it's so hard to talk
to you and not smile, right?

00:50:02.710 --> 00:50:06.050
Because you're just like,
it's, you're just a cool guy.

00:50:06.060 --> 00:50:06.410
Like...

00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:08.390
Rob: I think you're a cool guy, man.

00:50:08.390 --> 00:50:09.115
Thanks for having me.

00:50:09.115 --> 00:50:13.195
Michael: Well, I, I, yeah, you are
like my idea of cool, like I think

00:50:13.195 --> 00:50:16.765
you are, you are what I aspire to
in terms of coolness, but either

00:50:16.765 --> 00:50:17.725
way, I appreciate you being here.

00:50:17.725 --> 00:50:20.755
Thank you so much for, for sharing
with your story with us today.

00:50:21.025 --> 00:50:21.655
I appreciate it.

00:50:21.655 --> 00:50:24.565
And finally, before you go, if you're
a dad listening to this and you find

00:50:24.565 --> 00:50:27.445
yourself in between, navigating a
season that feels different, head

00:50:27.475 --> 00:50:29.905
to gaptogig.com, and subscribe
to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

00:50:30.250 --> 00:50:33.310
Comes out every Friday, and it's
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

00:50:33.490 --> 00:50:34.660
and what really matters right now.

00:50:35.200 --> 00:50:37.420
And if this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

00:50:37.420 --> 00:50:38.380
dad who might need to hear it.

00:50:38.770 --> 00:50:40.300
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

00:50:40.480 --> 00:50:42.220
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.