Mike Weyandt on Presence, Identity, and Navigating Fatherhood Through Uncertainty

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Mike: And that was when

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I got a gig that was gonna be
full-time for, you know, like a month.

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So, I was like, well, cool, and then
after that I really got a, you know, I

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gotta pull some jobs or I'll do something.

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And that was when the
adoption goes through.

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So, you know, we went from nothing
to three weeks later having, it was,

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it was 20 days between when we first
got the phone call, or not even.

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It was like just over two weeks, I think,
between, like, the first phone call

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we got of there's a potential match to
tiny human in our apartment in Brooklyn.

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Michael: Welcome to Gap to Gig, the show
for dads navigating the in-between season

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when work, identity, and priorities
start asking different questions.

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Here we talk about what that
season looks like and how to

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move through it with intention.

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I'm your host, Michael Jacobs.

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Today on Gap to Gig, I'm thrilled to
welcome Mike Weyandt, an ICF certified

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executive and career coach, lifelong
performer, and student of what it

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takes to thrive at work and at home.

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Mike has an uncommon path.

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He trained, performed as an opera
singer in some of the most demanding

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contemporary works, then transitioned
into helping teams and leaders grow at

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startups and organizations, including
co-founding a boutique talent consultancy,

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and serving as a fractional head of
talent for high growth companies.

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Along the way, he coached executives
and founders to unlock clarity and

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confidence, and he brings a reflective,
practical lens to what it means to succeed

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both professionally and personally.

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Most importantly, for this audience,
though, Mike is a dad to a spirited

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7-year-old daughter that he and his
husband adopted, and he's navigated the

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push and pull of meaningful work and
being present at home in ways that will

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resonate with dads tuning in today.

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Mike, I'm so excited
to chat with you today.

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Welcome to the show.

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I'm really glad you're here.

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Mike: Thank you.

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Very glad to be here.

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Michael: I appreciate that.

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So, you've had this
fascinating mix of artistry and

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leadership and now fatherhood.

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I'd love to start kind of at
the beginning and understand how

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those threads sort of connect.

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Can you take us back to those
early years in opera singer?

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What did performing at that level kind of
teach you about and identity and presence?

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Mike: It's a great question.

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You know, one of the things is,
is like the most obvious showbiz

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thing, which is the show must go on.

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But it really, it really taught
me like when it's go time, it's

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very literally go time, right?

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Especially in opera.

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I mean, it's not you, you can't wait for
your entrance, even like an actor could.

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It's like the music is where it is,
and you're either on time or you're

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late, you know, the conductor stick
is coming down and you're there when

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you're supposed to be or you're not.

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And if you're not, it's
very obvious, right?

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Especially if people know, are familiar
with the, the music you're doing.

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And I bring that up because really
what it taught me, which I don't

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think I appreciated until much,
much later, was almost like forced

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turning on and off being present

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Michael: Hmm.

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Mike: and what that felt like.

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It didn't necessarily make it easy
to do in other circumstances, which

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is something I can get , later, but
I realized once I started working you

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know, talking about training as a coach,
especially, but other, other related

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things where the topic of presence came
up a lot, I realized like, oh, I do know

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what that feels like when it's working.

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I don't necessarily have self command
where I can put myself there instantly

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in any situation, but I'm not this is not
sounding like abstract ooh theory to me.

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Michael: Right.

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Mike: I go, oh yeah, it's feeling,
you know, in flow in a certain

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way, in focus in a certain way.

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I assume a way that, that I was never
a good athlete, but the good ones

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probably can be, you know, this kind
of like in the moment flow state thing.

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And I think that like knowing
what that felt like in my body and

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knowing what my mind felt like when
it's in that state is probably, in

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retrospect, what I learned the most.

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Michael: So, I never thought about that.

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Like, performance is this, it's a
form of presence, right, like, like

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you said, if you're not on, if your
timing's off, if you're not present

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when you're supposed to be, like in
your case, singing, it's noticeable.

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You've missed that mark, right?

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And that kind of carries over
to other aspects of life.

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If you are working, if you're
coaching, or even if you're just

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whatever type of job you have, you
have to be there in the moment to

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focus on what that task is at hand.

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And then, of course, parenting
is all about presence, right?

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Like

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you, your child will know, your spouse
will know if you are not present in

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the moment that is important to family
unit or even outside the family, just

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with friends or people you respect.

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Like, if you, that form of presence of
being active in the moment on time, right?

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So, people aren't waiting
for you is so important.

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I never thought about like how that comes
from performance and from opera singing.

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That's, it's really interesting because
I know like opera demands focus, right?

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Like, I'm not an opera singer.

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I know very little about it.

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I appreciate the art, but, and I, I
know that to be a prolific singer,

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you need to have focus, right?

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You need to focus on the music, that,
the physical part of performing.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: And like when the curtain
goes up, you have to be there, right?

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And so...

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Mike: Yeah, and, and, and you know
what I would say, it's, you also learn

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about when it's not working, what's
like, it's, it can be very cut and dry.

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I think in some ways it's very similar
to something like, any like fine motor

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skill, like a, you know, a golf swing
or something where you really work

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on it, and you have that awareness
of I can think about it before.

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I can think about it after.

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I cannot think about during.

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Like, once you start

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Michael: Yeah.

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Mike: the thing, you're doing it because
the, the other thing you learn about

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presence is what it's like to not be
present in the sense of, this is the kind

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of mental chatter that like, I will miss
my entrance if I don't stop obsessing

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over what I'm nervous about, for example.

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Michael: Right.

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Mike: So, it's not just, you know, oh,
these kinds of thoughts are kind of

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negative, or these kind of thoughts
are distracting, or these sorts of

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thoughts are, you know, make me feel bad.

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And I have to counter that to, it's
like, oh, this is what it feels like

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to be in a thought loop where I lose
a sense of time enough that I will be

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late or I have been late, you know?

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So, there's that side, too, of
like learning what it feels like

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to be a little bit out of the
moment because you're mentally

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someplace for, for whatever reason.

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It doesn't have to be
something major either.

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It could be like, you know, you're
thinking about like, oh God, the

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mall was really boring yesterday.

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I don't wanna do that again today.

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This is the fourth.

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You know, you could be checking
out for a million reasons, but

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the point is then you go, oh, I
was out it, I was somewhere else.

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And, and, yeah, now we have to, if you're
in rehearsal, then it's okay, but then

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you have to start over and whatever.

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Michael: Right.

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And I imagine that that
comes from experience, right?

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Like you

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Mike: Totally.

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Michael: Kind of have to go through that
experience of what is making you nervous.

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What is making you not focus in
that moment to realize, like, oh,

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I miss my mark because of this.

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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100% percent is, it's not a thing you're
pre-, you're thinking about in advance.

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It's not that you're, it's
like, oh, it's that feeling.

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Oh, and it's like, I'm doing this, and
there's gonna be little tells that you

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have, you know, like, oh, if my head,
you know, this maybe sounds overly

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granular, but it can be just like,
oh, when I do this thing with my body.

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Oh, when I start pacing, you know, or
when I look up in a certain way, or,

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you know, whatever the physical habit
is that's associated, if there is one,

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and there, there often is, you really
start to learn that, but after the

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fact, you know, after it's happened,
three, four, you know, more times.

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Michael: Absolutely.

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You say pacing, I, I'm a big pacer myself,
and I realize oftentimes either I'm trying

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to burn off energy or I'm anxious, right?

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It's one of those things, it's
like I can recognize that now when

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I'm starting to do that, right?

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And

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Mike: Mm-hmm.

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Michael: When I do get anxious, it's
usually, I stop breathing, right?

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I don't realize it, but I'm not breathing
normally, and so I have to slow myself

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down to breathe, but that took experience
of going through that time after time

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to realize this is what's happening.

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I need to slow myself down.

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I need to take some deeper breaths.

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I need to just focus on and
breathing for a moment to get myself

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back into that space, to, to be
present for what really matters.

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It's really interesting how from
performance to, you can go from

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performance to presence and like the,
the connection there is so tight, right?

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Like you can't have one without the other.

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Right?

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I'm not sure I realized that
until you said you basically, you

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know, you walked me through what,
what your experience was like.

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So, when you transitioned from
performing and you got into talent

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strategy and coaching, did you
wrestle with identity at all?

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Like, how did you feel going from
performing on these big stages to working

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more directly with smaller audiences?

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Mike: Yeah, that's a good question.

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I, I, I did, but kind of in
the opposite way as a lot of

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my musician colleagues did.

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I had always been kind of like a
very omnivorous, you know, interested

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in all sorts of different things,
a person as, as a kid, all the

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way through college, whatever.

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And I eventually had to funnel into,
you know, you have to do something.

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And I think there were, you know,
there were a lot of reasons why I

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ended up on the, the path, I, I chose,
which is, you know, maybe a separate

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thing, but, I always had this feeling
that was part of my core identity.

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Like underneath even the, the
professional, the singing, you know,

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as the aspiring singer part was like
oh, but then I'm also something else.

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You know, like, I'm gonna do that
and I'm gonna do this other thing.

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And this was, this was true of, you
know, when I was in high school,

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I was like in nine different
activities at any given time.

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If I was in two, I tended to
get kind of la-, like lazy.

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But if I was in seven, you know,
then I was like, really on top of

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all of them, you know what I mean?

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Michael: Yep.

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Mike: So, I was, I mean, this is, I
was also diagnosed with ADHD like much

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later in life, and, in retrospect,
I was like, oh, that explains a lot.

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Pressure had to be at a certain
level, you know, or there had to be a

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conductor, like bringing a stick down.

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And then I'd be like, well,
now I can, now I can focus.

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Michael: Yep.

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Mike: Or I had to be very interested
in something just for, for whatever

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reason, you know, so I did really
well in school because I was really

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interested in a lot of things.

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Michael: Yep.

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Mike: At that point, later, that became
difficult because, you know, I always had

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survival jobs when I was singing, most of
which were not particularly interesting.

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Although I, maybe, like,
enjoyed my colleagues.

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I taught English for a while.

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I liked where I worked.

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I liked my colleagues, but the, the
benefit was that I could leave for six,

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seven weeks at a time if I had a gig.

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And they, you know,
they were okay with it.

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So it paid the bills a little
bit, you know, or at least made it

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easier, and it had the flexibility.

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But what started happening is, you know,
the, the, the deeper problem with my

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identity was, or, or challenge was, you
know, that part wasn't so interesting.

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And it certainly wasn't something I
was gonna like bring up at a dinner

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party as something I was very proud of.

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And, and you know, there's
reasons for that that maybe, in

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retrospect, I, I'm easier on myself.

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But, so it was like, you know, okay
I do this, but I love it when I

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do one or even two other things.

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And so when the talent strategy
works happen, which I kind

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of fell backwards into, but

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the, the real quick identity there
was like, oh, now I have something

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else to really sink my teeth into
and I can keep the other thing.

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And, in fact, you know, this ended up
being a really big identity shift later,

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but that mix was like, I was like, I'm
not gonna just do that either, I'm gonna

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have this really fun thing where I do the
singing thing and then I hang out with

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my singer people and then they're like
talking about the, and I say, and I get to

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tell them, oh, I have this totally other
thing and I'm gonna turn around and I'm

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gonna to these, go to these tech people
and say, oh, and I have this totally other

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thing, and I'm gonna feel really great.

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So, so that was so it, it was a
weird thing that kind of brought

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back a side of myself that again,
this isn't how I was thinking about

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it at the time, but it, it kind of,
I liked that identity for a while.

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I did not really think through the
sustainability of this, this dual

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identity, necessarily, which is a separate
issue, also, but I, I really liked that.

00:12:36.278 --> 00:12:39.728
And so when it was working, there were,
there were some years there where I

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felt like really in the groove I was
like getting more interesting gigs.

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I was singing at bigger, you
know, more prestigious places.

00:12:45.848 --> 00:12:48.578
And then, you know, my client
list was getting more interesting.

00:12:49.298 --> 00:12:51.428
So I was like, it's so
cool to be able to do both.

00:12:51.428 --> 00:12:54.518
Nobody else gets to do that
in this very unique mix.

00:12:55.058 --> 00:12:55.868
So this is really fun.

00:12:57.233 --> 00:12:58.733
Michael: That's really fascinating.

00:12:58.763 --> 00:13:05.063
Like, to me, it sounds like, in that
period of time, you are, you were

00:13:05.063 --> 00:13:10.703
chasing passion to some degree of like,
you had these two different interests,

00:13:11.693 --> 00:13:16.373
and, you know, your teaching English
wasn't really necessarily your passion.

00:13:16.373 --> 00:13:20.123
But as you started get into coaching,
it seems like, and maybe I'm projecting

00:13:20.123 --> 00:13:25.133
here, but it seemed like that was
that you became passionate about.

00:13:26.063 --> 00:13:28.463
At least the more you got into it,
the more interesting it became.

00:13:28.733 --> 00:13:32.303
And you still have this
other passion of, of singing.

00:13:33.068 --> 00:13:36.968
How much of your identity during
that time was passion, chasing this

00:13:36.968 --> 00:13:39.428
passion versus chasing your ambition?

00:13:41.713 --> 00:13:42.908
Mike: That's a great question.

00:13:43.238 --> 00:13:48.788
I, well, I will, I will say, I think
it really shifted from the passion to

00:13:48.788 --> 00:13:51.068
the ambition earlier than I thought

00:13:51.983 --> 00:13:52.063
Michael: Hmm.

00:13:52.088 --> 00:13:55.488
Mike: without me being super
aware of it in retrospect.

00:13:55.488 --> 00:13:55.888
Michael: Why do you think that was?

00:13:56.318 --> 00:14:00.771
Mike: Like, I think there was something
that was, it was stimulating enough

00:14:00.831 --> 00:14:03.381
to have this mix of different things.

00:14:03.681 --> 00:14:06.171
And, and the other thing, and
this is true with people, with

00:14:07.641 --> 00:14:11.151
anyone within, you know, executive
function challenges, if something

00:14:11.151 --> 00:14:14.121
is novel, that's also really great.

00:14:14.121 --> 00:14:19.671
So the novelty side of my
work with tech startups was,

00:14:19.731 --> 00:14:21.321
this was all pretty new to me.

00:14:21.321 --> 00:14:25.851
You know, I had been totally interested in
computers as a kid and, you know, hadn't

00:14:25.851 --> 00:14:27.351
really thought about it for 15 years.

00:14:27.351 --> 00:14:31.131
And so to see where things were and I
could kind of read and learn what, like

00:14:31.216 --> 00:14:34.041
learn, you know, learn these different
types of engineering were all about.

00:14:35.931 --> 00:14:39.201
The novelty was high, which was very
different than the, let's say the

00:14:39.201 --> 00:14:42.321
English language teaching, which
was the same, you know, six books.

00:14:42.321 --> 00:14:45.411
And this, this month you teach
book one and next month you teach

00:14:45.441 --> 00:14:47.181
book three and so on and so forth.

00:14:47.181 --> 00:14:53.031
Rinse, repeat, so I also think
that level of stimulation did,

00:14:53.241 --> 00:14:54.981
in retrospect, you know, mask

00:14:57.651 --> 00:15:00.501
a growing disconnect of like, is this
even really what I wanna be doing?

00:15:00.741 --> 00:15:02.261
Not say, like, I didn't.

00:15:02.391 --> 00:15:03.921
You know, I was having a good time.

00:15:03.951 --> 00:15:06.489
Maybe that's where it gets the most,
it's like the sneakiest, right?

00:15:06.489 --> 00:15:10.476
Like, I was having a pretty good time,
you know, and then when days were like

00:15:10.476 --> 00:15:12.906
kind of harder and I was like, I don't
like this, but then I would get paid

00:15:12.906 --> 00:15:14.556
better than I had ever been paid before.

00:15:14.556 --> 00:15:16.956
So, I was like, well, that's cool.

00:15:17.586 --> 00:15:19.776
You know, like that part of it feels good.

00:15:20.286 --> 00:15:24.276
And it wasn't really til I hit a couple
road bumps later that were major resets

00:15:24.276 --> 00:15:29.466
that I went and really looked back and
went, oh, I don't know if I was really all

00:15:29.466 --> 00:15:34.746
in on a few things that I think I would've
preferred to have been in retrospect.

00:15:35.811 --> 00:15:40.386
And, yeah, so I kind of think I faded
out of that and, and really it became

00:15:40.386 --> 00:15:43.986
an ambition piece by the time I was
doing both in full swing, more so.

00:15:45.066 --> 00:15:50.256
Michael: Yeah, I think that's,
appears to me to be common amongst

00:15:50.706 --> 00:15:54.936
the dads I talk to of like, you know,
I started doing this work 'cause

00:15:54.936 --> 00:15:56.166
I thought I was interested in it.

00:15:56.436 --> 00:15:57.126
It was good.

00:15:57.126 --> 00:15:59.466
It kind of just gets me by,
and like, I have to earn a

00:15:59.466 --> 00:16:01.896
living so that works for me.

00:16:01.896 --> 00:16:06.396
But at some point your interests may
change, they may fade, you might get

00:16:06.396 --> 00:16:10.266
tired of doing something, and it's
like, okay, what do I really wanna do?

00:16:10.266 --> 00:16:11.046
What can I do next?

00:16:11.046 --> 00:16:14.166
Because I only have so much time to work.

00:16:14.166 --> 00:16:20.916
And then as your life evolves, right,
and you become a father and you take

00:16:20.916 --> 00:16:23.646
on these different responsibilities,
it's like, okay, do I wanna keep doing

00:16:23.646 --> 00:16:28.056
this work, and can, or can I continue
to do this work and still be there

00:16:28.386 --> 00:16:30.426
to do these other things in my life?

00:16:31.566 --> 00:16:37.071
You seem like you've been able
to find that at that time still

00:16:37.071 --> 00:16:37.971
able to do that balance, right?

00:16:37.971 --> 00:16:42.201
Like you had the singing and you started
doing this coaching thing and you kind

00:16:42.201 --> 00:16:46.551
of, like, okay, I could figure out how
to these two things and I could do it in

00:16:46.551 --> 00:16:51.131
a way that is really interesting to me,
right, of like, I can talk to my singing

00:16:51.131 --> 00:16:54.141
friends about this coaching stuff that I'm
doing that's really unique, and I can talk

00:16:54.141 --> 00:16:57.591
to my coaching friends about the singing
thing, and, you know, like you found a way

00:16:57.591 --> 00:17:02.121
to make it work for you, especially during
that transitional period of like, okay,

00:17:02.121 --> 00:17:06.981
I'm gonna go from singing maybe a little
bit teaching to getting into coaching

00:17:06.981 --> 00:17:08.571
and consulting and, and things like that.

00:17:08.571 --> 00:17:11.631
So, it's really interesting, but
it's also just, and I think it is

00:17:11.631 --> 00:17:14.001
because it's really real, right?

00:17:14.001 --> 00:17:19.011
Like, I think, you know, like I said, I
think a lot of dads go through similar

00:17:19.041 --> 00:17:28.041
experiences, maybe not the same, like
between an art and a consulting type

00:17:28.131 --> 00:17:31.941
project, but they are trying to figure
out, okay, this is what I am good at.

00:17:31.941 --> 00:17:33.141
This is what I've been doing for so long.

00:17:33.141 --> 00:17:35.061
This is what I was interested
in, but I also have these other

00:17:35.061 --> 00:17:38.841
interests I wanna pursue, and how
do I find that, that right balance?

00:17:39.231 --> 00:17:43.251
And I think that, you know, there's,
there's this identity piece of like,

00:17:43.461 --> 00:17:45.261
you identified as a singer, right?

00:17:45.381 --> 00:17:49.391
I think first and foremost when you got
outta college or in the arts at least,

00:17:49.931 --> 00:17:53.601
and your identity shifted over time to,
yes, there's still a singing element

00:17:53.601 --> 00:17:58.641
to your identity, but now there is this
professional element of coaching and

00:17:58.971 --> 00:18:04.251
consulting and talent acquisition type
stuff that became probably a bigger

00:18:04.251 --> 00:18:07.671
and bigger part of your identity, but
there was no bigger identity shift,

00:18:07.671 --> 00:18:09.141
I think, than becoming a parent.

00:18:09.561 --> 00:18:12.021
And, for you, that came through adoption.

00:18:13.011 --> 00:18:16.401
I'm really curious, what was that season
like while you were still working and

00:18:16.401 --> 00:18:21.351
performing and coaching and you started
to think about starting a family?

00:18:23.636 --> 00:18:28.431
Mike: Yeah, that was really, I mean
it was interesting because it was

00:18:30.686 --> 00:18:34.281
a whole bunch of tumultuous things
happened in a row, you know, partly

00:18:34.281 --> 00:18:37.281
related to the adoption process,
partly related to my, my personal

00:18:37.281 --> 00:18:41.346
life, then partly related to, you know,
what happened to the world in 2020.

00:18:41.736 --> 00:18:46.506
So, the, the timeline for me was
basically, I stepped away from my,

00:18:47.016 --> 00:18:52.356
the small business I had co-founded
in somewhere in 2018, I think.

00:18:52.806 --> 00:18:57.006
At that point, so, I'd entered the
adoption process before then when

00:18:57.006 --> 00:18:58.446
I was fully doing everything still.

00:18:59.646 --> 00:19:00.816
And for anyone who's been in it,

00:19:02.886 --> 00:19:05.076
or for anyone who's not been in the
adoption process, they may not know

00:19:05.076 --> 00:19:09.216
how much, you know, it's, it's a
waiting game with no signal, right?

00:19:09.216 --> 00:19:13.416
Once, so you, you apply, you do
whatever class you have to do, you

00:19:13.416 --> 00:19:16.656
have, so there's several weeks of
getting paperwork to-, together having

00:19:16.656 --> 00:19:18.071
a social worker visit your home.

00:19:18.411 --> 00:19:21.756
So, you, because that's part of
the requirements, whatever it is.

00:19:22.026 --> 00:19:25.596
But after that's done,
you're on the list, right?

00:19:28.236 --> 00:19:31.776
And then you just kind of sit on
the list, and you're not closer

00:19:31.776 --> 00:19:33.576
to getting picked necessarily.

00:19:33.576 --> 00:19:36.966
There is a, you know, they prioritize
longer waiting families first, but

00:19:36.996 --> 00:19:39.576
there are so many variables that
you could get picked in two days.

00:19:39.726 --> 00:19:43.236
You could get picked in two years
and you, and there's no sign

00:19:43.236 --> 00:19:44.466
that it's like getting closer.

00:19:45.546 --> 00:19:47.436
So, we had entered into
this, we were waiting.

00:19:47.496 --> 00:19:52.476
And what was weird is you know,
it didn't feel like we felt that

00:19:52.476 --> 00:19:54.156
urge of we wanna be parents.

00:19:54.186 --> 00:19:57.516
And I had, I kind of had always thought of
myself as someone who was gonna have kids.

00:19:57.876 --> 00:20:00.726
I was not surprised to be
like, okay, now it's time.

00:20:01.191 --> 00:20:01.541
Michael: Right.

00:20:02.046 --> 00:20:06.696
Mike: So, so we do all the, the
work for the adoption, but, and,

00:20:06.696 --> 00:20:07.596
you know, then you're just waiting.

00:20:07.596 --> 00:20:09.156
And in the meantime,
your life is the same.

00:20:10.896 --> 00:20:15.036
It doesn't feel like, you know,
nobody's getting bigger every month.

00:20:15.186 --> 00:20:18.546
We're not doing medical checkups
where you're seeing that

00:20:18.546 --> 00:20:20.076
something is definitely happening.

00:20:20.406 --> 00:20:21.816
It's very abstract.

00:20:24.576 --> 00:20:30.606
What was interesting is then, when
was this, sometime, so, yeah, sometime

00:20:30.606 --> 00:20:37.986
mid, roughly 2018, I think, is when
I, we went down the small business,

00:20:38.616 --> 00:20:42.276
and I was a little burnt out from, you
know, the tail end of that experience.

00:20:42.306 --> 00:20:46.026
And, you know, I thought,
great, I saved some money.

00:20:46.026 --> 00:20:47.856
I'm gonna do some creative projects.

00:20:48.606 --> 00:20:52.236
You know, I hadn't had space to do, it
had been getting a little more demanding.

00:20:52.236 --> 00:20:56.766
It had been a little harder to finish,
to finish fit in some singing work.

00:20:57.336 --> 00:20:59.436
I was like, oh, I have a couple
things I've been waiting to do.

00:20:59.466 --> 00:21:01.356
There was a project that was
like ready to go and I was like,

00:21:01.356 --> 00:21:02.646
now I have all day to do this.

00:21:02.646 --> 00:21:03.156
This will be great.

00:21:03.156 --> 00:21:04.026
I'll throw myself into it.

00:21:04.176 --> 00:21:08.766
So I do all that, and I did a little
bit of consulting here and there,

00:21:08.766 --> 00:21:11.526
and kind of poked around and was
like, oh, I'll just maybe explore.

00:21:11.526 --> 00:21:12.813
Who knows where it can go from here?

00:21:12.814 --> 00:21:15.784
So, there was a very up in
the airness, but it felt kind

00:21:15.784 --> 00:21:18.739
of, kind of fun, you know?

00:21:18.889 --> 00:21:21.859
I think in retrospect, you know, not
that I've gone through this experience

00:21:21.859 --> 00:21:25.369
in a really long time, but it was almost
like, you know, after a break of like the

00:21:25.369 --> 00:21:30.559
rebound relationship thing in terms of
maybe it feels more fun than it really,

00:21:30.559 --> 00:21:34.159
than in, it's going to feel, you know,
six months after that because there's this

00:21:34.159 --> 00:21:38.149
new found, you know, freedom or energy
or in space in your schedule and whatnot.

00:21:40.849 --> 00:21:47.479
But then, you know, as 2019 starts, I'm
going, okay, it's been a little while.

00:21:47.539 --> 00:21:49.399
Like, now it's not so fun and fresh.

00:21:49.399 --> 00:21:52.249
It's like, you know, you initially
connect with a lot of folks and

00:21:52.999 --> 00:21:56.059
then you already connected, so you
can't connect, connect again yet.

00:21:56.059 --> 00:21:59.479
And then you're going, okay, well
do I look for jobs or what do I do?

00:22:00.739 --> 00:22:01.879
And that was when

00:22:03.919 --> 00:22:06.739
I got a gig that was gonna be
full-time for, you know, like a month.

00:22:06.739 --> 00:22:09.319
So, I was like, well, cool, and then
after that I really got a, you know, I

00:22:09.319 --> 00:22:10.919
gotta pull some jobs or I'll do something.

00:22:11.149 --> 00:22:13.129
And that was when the
adoption goes through.

00:22:14.299 --> 00:22:19.984
So, you know, we went from nothing
to three weeks later having, it was,

00:22:19.984 --> 00:22:26.049
it was 20 days between when we first
got the phone call, or not even.

00:22:27.429 --> 00:22:31.174
It was like just over two weeks, I think,
between, like, the first phone call that

00:22:31.184 --> 00:22:37.174
we got of there was a potential match to
tiny human in our apartment in Brooklyn.

00:22:37.180 --> 00:22:40.150
You know, so it was a, and it
was a huge whirlwind that, that's

00:22:40.150 --> 00:22:41.770
a whole separate story as well.

00:22:42.190 --> 00:22:46.903
But, I had been hitting this kind
of point of, ooh, starting to feel a

00:22:46.903 --> 00:22:48.913
little stagnant, at least partially.

00:22:49.723 --> 00:22:52.543
And I don't have anything else on my
schedule for singing, you know, other

00:22:52.543 --> 00:22:53.683
than this thing that was upcoming.

00:22:53.683 --> 00:22:57.403
Of course, the baby comes home while
I'm, I was like going to rehearsal while

00:22:57.403 --> 00:23:00.213
there was a baby at home and I couldn't
sleep, and that was very hard to do.

00:23:00.243 --> 00:23:02.848
I remember very little of
it, as you can imagine.

00:23:03.068 --> 00:23:03.358
Michael: Yeah.

00:23:03.838 --> 00:23:05.878
Mike: But it was, it was, it
was kind of like all fun in a

00:23:05.878 --> 00:23:07.408
way because it was bonkers, but,

00:23:10.078 --> 00:23:11.098
and then I was like, okay, fine.

00:23:11.278 --> 00:23:15.598
I mean, I have a tiny infant, so I'm
just, I'm doing that now, and, you

00:23:15.598 --> 00:23:19.348
know, I always wanted to be a dad, so
I was like, this could be really cool.

00:23:19.408 --> 00:23:22.188
I'm gonna be like full on dad.

00:23:22.288 --> 00:23:22.778
You know?

00:23:23.308 --> 00:23:28.296
And, I would say at first that identity
shift was, there was a hole, and

00:23:28.296 --> 00:23:30.036
it filled it and then some, right?

00:23:30.196 --> 00:23:30.486
Michael: Yeah.

00:23:31.216 --> 00:23:31.726
Mike: Like, very well.

00:23:32.226 --> 00:23:33.276
And I really enjoyed it.

00:23:33.276 --> 00:23:36.556
And there was so much to do, and I
was so sleepy and all of the things

00:23:36.616 --> 00:23:41.076
'cause, you know, we were doing,
you know, the whole tiny baby thing.

00:23:43.266 --> 00:23:47.346
And then where the timeline gets really
weird for me personally, is about when

00:23:47.346 --> 00:23:51.096
my daughter was just about, you know,
to turn one is when COVID started.

00:23:51.516 --> 00:23:51.806
Michael: Yeah.

00:23:51.846 --> 00:23:55.866
Mike: So, again, that was when I
was going, oh, you know, I have

00:23:55.866 --> 00:24:00.501
not talked to a grownup who I'm not
married to about anything remotely

00:24:00.501 --> 00:24:02.451
grown up for a really long time.

00:24:02.451 --> 00:24:05.841
And I'm starting to feel like, yeah,
I've got that, like, I can't find words.

00:24:05.841 --> 00:24:06.471
I can't, you know,

00:24:09.171 --> 00:24:11.841
no one's asked me what I think
about anything for literally

00:24:11.841 --> 00:24:13.551
months and that feels weird.

00:24:13.551 --> 00:24:14.451
I'd never thought about that.

00:24:15.531 --> 00:24:16.311
And that's when COVID hit.

00:24:16.611 --> 00:24:20.631
So, then it was like, well, you
know, you can deal with your,

00:24:21.801 --> 00:24:24.351
deal with your own thing later
for, because now it's this thing.

00:24:24.831 --> 00:24:25.191
Michael: Right.

00:24:25.401 --> 00:24:28.011
Mike: So, then we went through a whole
transition with that and we moved across

00:24:28.011 --> 00:24:31.011
the country to try because my husband
got a new job that he was trying out.

00:24:32.421 --> 00:24:36.861
And it was just that felt like, okay,
well, I was ready for a change instead

00:24:36.861 --> 00:24:40.671
of getting the change I was expecting,
which is like starting to consider having

00:24:40.671 --> 00:24:45.921
gonna reenter the workforce, I got this
completely unanticipated change and then,

00:24:45.921 --> 00:24:50.541
so like, let's just make it as complicated
as possible and move to move across the

00:24:50.541 --> 00:24:51.951
country and do all the things, right?

00:24:52.012 --> 00:24:54.592
I think, in retrospect, it was so

00:24:56.902 --> 00:25:00.502
tumultuous, both because of things
that I brought and because of obviously

00:25:00.502 --> 00:25:04.852
stuff that just happened and timelines
I couldn't control that I really

00:25:04.852 --> 00:25:08.992
did not, there were a lot of things
I did not sit with until later.

00:25:08.997 --> 00:25:12.742
And that, and at that point, in terms of
my professional work, I was doing a lot

00:25:12.742 --> 00:25:16.282
of coaching, or sorry, not coaching; I
was doing a lot of consulting, advising,

00:25:16.282 --> 00:25:19.402
and then actually like running, you know,
talent processes and things like that.

00:25:19.402 --> 00:25:20.752
I was not coaching yet,

00:25:21.502 --> 00:25:21.592
Michael: Yeah.

00:25:22.072 --> 00:25:22.432
Mike: formally.

00:25:25.732 --> 00:25:30.142
And I think the experience of, of, you
know, once, by the time we were in COVID

00:25:30.142 --> 00:25:35.102
for a while of just sort of sitting there
and going, okay, I kind of felt like I got

00:25:35.102 --> 00:25:39.802
to ignore a lot of major identity shifts
in some respect, or at least maybe the

00:25:39.802 --> 00:25:45.082
implications of those, because the change
was so, there were so many of them, and

00:25:45.082 --> 00:25:47.842
they were so significant and unexpected.

00:25:48.117 --> 00:25:48.467
Michael: Right.

00:25:48.622 --> 00:25:50.179
Mike: And it kind of happened
all at the same time.

00:25:50.194 --> 00:25:55.024
But that ended up being a real big
piece of what I started thinking about

00:25:55.024 --> 00:25:58.674
a lot by the time I started getting
more seriously into coaching work and

00:25:58.834 --> 00:26:00.414
wanted to do more formal training.

00:26:02.659 --> 00:26:03.684
Michael: I appreciate you sharing that.

00:26:03.954 --> 00:26:12.079
It's the, the mental load that you
must have carried during that time.

00:26:12.079 --> 00:26:17.479
There were so many different emotions
that seemed to be bubbling up there.

00:26:17.689 --> 00:26:22.789
There was excitement, but there was also
fear, and there was also almost an element

00:26:22.819 --> 00:26:25.909
of boredom or lack of challenge, of

00:26:26.069 --> 00:26:26.489
Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:26:26.689 --> 00:26:30.124
Michael: Needing some human interaction
or adult human interaction about things

00:26:30.259 --> 00:26:32.089
that just day-to-day life, right?

00:26:32.089 --> 00:26:37.699
Like, and then you have like, oh, but
also there's all these new beginnings.

00:26:37.819 --> 00:26:39.409
I'm moving across the country.

00:26:39.409 --> 00:26:42.529
I've got a new fam, like
I've got a full family now.

00:26:42.529 --> 00:26:44.764
Like I've got all these different things.

00:26:44.764 --> 00:26:50.134
I imagine for both, for you and your
husband, like the, the mental load

00:26:50.614 --> 00:26:58.774
must have been very challenging, to
say the least, of just like managing

00:26:58.834 --> 00:27:03.694
those ups and downs and still being
present for your child and for each

00:27:03.694 --> 00:27:05.404
other, but also for yourself, right?

00:27:05.404 --> 00:27:09.284
Like, it seems like you got to
the point where you wanted to get,

00:27:09.964 --> 00:27:15.214
right, but that, that path, again,
was like inexperience that you don't

00:27:15.214 --> 00:27:16.714
know until you've gone through.

00:27:16.714 --> 00:27:19.114
Now, I have not been through adoption.

00:27:19.114 --> 00:27:22.714
I do have dear friends of mine that went
through the adoption process, and, just

00:27:22.714 --> 00:27:27.604
like you, it was like years of waiting
and then all of a sudden they had days

00:27:27.604 --> 00:27:33.334
to fly across the country, pick up their
child, come back home, set everything up.

00:27:33.334 --> 00:27:37.144
Like, it is, I can't imagine,
I can't even begin to fathom.

00:27:37.774 --> 00:27:40.654
Like, I knew when my kids were
coming, like within a matter of,

00:27:40.834 --> 00:27:42.004
you know, a week or two, right?

00:27:42.004 --> 00:27:45.724
Like, there was a due date, but you
don't know exactly when they're gonna

00:27:45.724 --> 00:27:47.254
come unless you schedule the C-section.

00:27:47.254 --> 00:27:50.584
And even then it could still
come in early, or there could be

00:27:50.584 --> 00:27:51.874
complications, whatever it may be.

00:27:53.044 --> 00:27:58.654
I just can't imagine what that
was like to have so many different

00:27:58.654 --> 00:27:59.884
things happening at once.

00:27:59.884 --> 00:28:02.554
Plus, we have this COVID thing that none
of us have dealt with before, right?

00:28:02.554 --> 00:28:08.444
Like the, the mental load that it's,
to be able to manage yourself through

00:28:08.444 --> 00:28:15.874
that is just so, to me, inspirational,
of like, okay, you can go, anybody

00:28:15.874 --> 00:28:20.194
can go through a lot, it's, you
can't always do it yourself, right?

00:28:20.194 --> 00:28:21.604
And you shouldn't always do it yourself.

00:28:22.504 --> 00:28:24.694
And I'm sure there were times
that were very difficult that

00:28:24.694 --> 00:28:26.914
you wish were like, ugh, I just
can't wait to get through this.

00:28:26.914 --> 00:28:28.174
And there were probably other
times where it's like, oh my

00:28:28.174 --> 00:28:29.404
God, it's going by way too fast.

00:28:29.404 --> 00:28:33.424
Like, I'm having a time of my life playing
with my, with my newborn daughter and,

00:28:33.904 --> 00:28:39.394
and my spouse and it's like, but it's
just like that roller coaster of the

00:28:39.394 --> 00:28:43.384
ups and downs, it's just like constant
for such an extended period of time.

00:28:44.584 --> 00:28:48.514
You know, we talk about, I talk about
transition a lot between like finding

00:28:48.514 --> 00:28:51.844
work that you're doing now to something
that you really wanna be doing,

00:28:51.844 --> 00:28:57.364
finding meaningful work, and that
can have an emotional element to it.

00:28:57.364 --> 00:28:58.534
And it can be challenging.

00:28:58.544 --> 00:29:01.744
Like, or maybe you lose your job, and
you don't know what you're gonna do

00:29:01.744 --> 00:29:06.544
next, and now you're, you have some more
depressive emotions, but then there's

00:29:06.544 --> 00:29:09.604
also opportunity on another side of like,
okay, now I've got time to figure out what

00:29:09.604 --> 00:29:11.014
I'm gonna do and how I'm gonna do that.

00:29:11.794 --> 00:29:16.624
But your experience is like doing
all that on steroids times 10, right?

00:29:16.629 --> 00:29:20.524
It's like you have so many
different things going on.

00:29:20.524 --> 00:29:22.534
I'm just curious, like,
how did you manage?

00:29:27.364 --> 00:29:32.254
Mike: Yeah, it was, you know, it
was, I think, one part, the show must

00:29:32.254 --> 00:29:36.964
go on, like, in the sense of you're
just doing whatever you're doing.

00:29:36.964 --> 00:29:40.294
And I don't mean that in, I
mean that in a very neutral way.

00:29:40.384 --> 00:29:43.384
I don't mean that like this was, this
was not like, I did not have Buddhist

00:29:43.384 --> 00:29:45.714
smile on my face, not to say the least.

00:29:46.684 --> 00:29:53.254
It was more just, like, you have to
go on now even if you, like, even if

00:29:53.254 --> 00:29:56.674
you, in the stage context, it's like
even if the other person is not there,

00:29:56.734 --> 00:29:57.694
and you don't know where they are.

00:29:58.339 --> 00:29:58.579
Michael: Yeah.

00:29:58.924 --> 00:30:02.224
Mike: It's like you just gotta go, and
you have to see what's gonna happen.

00:30:02.224 --> 00:30:04.024
And it is, it's exciting.

00:30:04.174 --> 00:30:05.224
It's very stressful.

00:30:05.224 --> 00:30:05.824
It's thrilling.

00:30:06.064 --> 00:30:07.504
The stress isn't necessarily bad.

00:30:08.794 --> 00:30:13.654
Nobody's gonna, you know, die at the end
of the day, but it might feel really weird

00:30:13.834 --> 00:30:15.274
and probably in a very uncomfortable way.

00:30:16.294 --> 00:30:18.924
And I think there was an element of,

00:30:20.964 --> 00:30:21.814
I've had,

00:30:23.854 --> 00:30:28.354
like, this hasn't come up yet, but
my husband and I, many years before

00:30:28.354 --> 00:30:31.564
when we were, you know, just outta
college, like lived in rural China for

00:30:31.564 --> 00:30:36.184
a couple years, and again, everything
could not possibly have been more

00:30:36.184 --> 00:30:37.534
different in terms of our day to day

00:30:37.764 --> 00:30:38.114
Michael: Right.

00:30:38.414 --> 00:30:39.244
Mike: and the language and all this stuff.

00:30:39.689 --> 00:30:44.834
And, and there were some really hard
moments as anyone's lived abroad,

00:30:44.834 --> 00:30:48.494
especially in a very, very different
cultural context, sharing this experience.

00:30:48.794 --> 00:30:49.794
You're there for almost two years.

00:30:50.704 --> 00:30:52.704
You know, first it's amazing and
then six months in, you're just like

00:30:52.774 --> 00:30:54.194
I hate every single thing around.

00:30:54.664 --> 00:30:57.664
And then you get over that hump and
then, you know, and so on and so forth.

00:30:59.034 --> 00:31:02.114
I bring that up because I think by the
time you were, let's say, like, well into

00:31:02.304 --> 00:31:08.014
COVID, it was almost like, I don't wanna
say an adrenaline crash, but, but there

00:31:08.014 --> 00:31:11.884
was a thing where, you know, even kind
of like I mentioned earlier, I'm kind of

00:31:11.884 --> 00:31:13.374
like if I'm doing four things at once.

00:31:13.594 --> 00:31:14.944
If I'm doing one, I'd rather do four.

00:31:15.754 --> 00:31:16.084
Michael: Yep.

00:31:16.354 --> 00:31:19.654
Mike: If they're big, I'd rather
they be a little bigger, but also,

00:31:21.769 --> 00:31:25.279
this, the, the, like, the randomness
is exciting, meaning I'm not

00:31:25.279 --> 00:31:26.629
picking all of these things.

00:31:27.004 --> 00:31:27.394
Michael: Right.

00:31:27.649 --> 00:31:30.349
Mike: You know, I maybe have not,
I've done, one thing I've been good at

00:31:30.349 --> 00:31:32.989
throughout my life, you know, for all the
things that didn't work, so, that were not

00:31:32.989 --> 00:31:37.189
so easy is if there's an opportunity, and
I'm like, I don't know if I can do that,

00:31:37.189 --> 00:31:41.389
but I kind of wanna try, I tend to just
jump on it, making something for myself.

00:31:42.649 --> 00:31:47.299
Suddenly, halfway through COVID,
that's the thing that became both

00:31:47.299 --> 00:31:50.179
necessary and the important thing.

00:31:50.359 --> 00:31:53.179
Like, the most important,
meaningful thing I wanted to do, I

00:31:53.179 --> 00:31:55.849
realized, is I wanna stop reacting.

00:31:55.849 --> 00:31:59.089
I certainly wanna stop reacting
to like, spontaneous global events

00:31:59.089 --> 00:32:01.309
that suck because that was crazy.

00:32:01.789 --> 00:32:02.119
Michael: Yes.

00:32:02.149 --> 00:32:03.994
Mike: But at the same time, there was
something just like, I don't care.

00:32:04.394 --> 00:32:08.479
I can like, fine, we're wearing
masks in the grocery store,

00:32:08.479 --> 00:32:10.069
you know, we, I'll do it.

00:32:10.069 --> 00:32:12.319
Like, I'll learn how to, I'll
learn how to make two breads,

00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:13.429
not one, you know, whatever.

00:32:15.984 --> 00:32:17.959
I mean, and I don't mean to make
light of it, it's just because it was

00:32:17.959 --> 00:32:20.779
very tough, too, but I was kind of
like, this is what we're doing now.

00:32:21.709 --> 00:32:22.519
Okay, fine.

00:32:24.529 --> 00:32:24.859
Obviously.

00:32:24.859 --> 00:32:25.879
That can't go on forever.

00:32:26.264 --> 00:32:26.614
Michael: Right.

00:32:26.699 --> 00:32:31.849
Mike: And so I think suddenly when we
were in the new routine out west, and

00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:36.469
it had been stable for, you know, a few
months and things were opening back up,

00:32:37.579 --> 00:32:40.279
that, and there was, and, you know, my
daughter, obviously we went out when she

00:32:40.279 --> 00:32:43.459
was a year old, but like now she's three,
now she's going to preschool, she's got,

00:32:43.909 --> 00:32:46.909
you know, there's like a regular schedule,
there's a school calendar, there's a

00:32:46.909 --> 00:32:53.929
this, there's a that, and that really,
really stable routine where you're just

00:32:53.994 --> 00:32:57.769
in, in my case, you know, I was the stay
at home parent, like I'm just the dad.

00:32:57.769 --> 00:33:00.079
I'm, I'm her, so-and-so's dad.

00:33:00.769 --> 00:33:03.439
And that was the identity that,
and I changed context, right?

00:33:03.439 --> 00:33:07.099
That's the only identity anyone knew,
knew me as, basically, at that point.

00:33:09.109 --> 00:33:12.469
Suddenly, that was really weird,
and that was a hard transition.

00:33:12.469 --> 00:33:17.059
So, it was almost like, it wasn't
literally like a sugar crash, but there

00:33:17.059 --> 00:33:21.619
was an element of like, there are no big
surprises being thrown my way anymore.

00:33:22.009 --> 00:33:23.659
And in fact, it's quite the opposite.

00:33:25.729 --> 00:33:28.279
It's, you know, so day by day,
obviously with the kid, but then

00:33:28.279 --> 00:33:29.029
that was true of other stuff.

00:33:29.059 --> 00:33:33.199
I ended up getting, you know, some
consulting work and, and, you know,

00:33:33.199 --> 00:33:36.199
and then I ended up taking a fulltime
job that was in doing the same kind

00:33:36.199 --> 00:33:39.199
of thing, so it was very predictable.

00:33:39.199 --> 00:33:43.377
There was a little bit of a variety of
clients, you know, and that was, I think,

00:33:43.377 --> 00:33:46.237
the hardest point for me personally.

00:33:47.427 --> 00:33:48.072
Michael: I imagine.

00:33:48.192 --> 00:33:53.082
It sounded to me, like, until you got
to that routine stage where the schedule

00:33:53.082 --> 00:34:00.532
started coming in and then in preschool,
like you are able to move forward by being

00:34:00.532 --> 00:34:03.997
comfortable with the uncomfortable, right?

00:34:03.997 --> 00:34:08.622
Like it, to me, it sounds like, you know,
okay, we're gonna go live in rural China

00:34:08.622 --> 00:34:11.862
for two years in a very different culture,
different language, different everything.

00:34:11.892 --> 00:34:18.192
And I don't know what it's like to
spend time in rural China for two

00:34:18.192 --> 00:34:22.857
years, but I imagine there were, it
was a lot of learning new things,

00:34:22.967 --> 00:34:29.397
and, you know, whether it's customs
or words or foods, whatever it may be,

00:34:29.397 --> 00:34:37.257
right, and you seem to almost thrive
off that uncomfortableness, right?

00:34:37.257 --> 00:34:44.727
And so, like you were able to embrace
what other people might find stressful to

00:34:44.727 --> 00:34:49.707
you, was more of a, a desire to achieve

00:34:50.472 --> 00:34:50.892
Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:34:51.207 --> 00:34:51.597
There was,

00:34:51.597 --> 00:34:52.317
Michael: a challenge.

00:34:52.737 --> 00:34:56.337
Mike: yeah, I would say like, and, and
like, to be clear, there's so many kinds

00:34:56.337 --> 00:34:59.787
of discomfort that I'm, to this day
terrible at sitting at, sitting with,

00:34:59.847 --> 00:35:03.687
you know, but there's, yeah, there's a
certain subset where, you know, there's

00:35:03.687 --> 00:35:09.557
like a combination of novelty and freedom
to explore as long as you don't freak out.

00:35:10.337 --> 00:35:16.667
Meaning, I wasn't there to, like, we
were teaching at a, it was through

00:35:16.667 --> 00:35:18.857
the college we went to and there was
a, you know, you had a teaching thing

00:35:18.857 --> 00:35:22.127
already figured out for you and it was
only like 15, 20 hours a week, so you

00:35:22.127 --> 00:35:25.882
had plenty of free time to like go meet
people and travel and blah, blah, blah.

00:35:26.207 --> 00:35:28.277
But the pressure was really
off in the sense of, like,

00:35:28.277 --> 00:35:29.897
this was not an ambitious time.

00:35:31.247 --> 00:35:34.157
It was a step and it was before a lot
of what I talked told you about before,

00:35:34.157 --> 00:35:35.837
but like, it was a step away from that.

00:35:35.837 --> 00:35:39.197
You know, I was still in grad
school and I took some, some time

00:35:39.197 --> 00:35:42.737
off and I had to like, I had some
very prestigious fellowships on

00:35:42.737 --> 00:35:45.857
either side of Atlanta, like call my
professor and be like, guess what?

00:35:45.857 --> 00:35:48.017
This, you're not expecting
what I'm about to tell you.

00:35:48.467 --> 00:35:49.217
Guess where I'm moving?

00:35:49.847 --> 00:35:55.307
And, but something about that like novelty
and the stimulation, like I just would

00:35:55.307 --> 00:35:59.597
tell people I had so much fun when I,
when I first got there, and then when

00:35:59.597 --> 00:36:02.447
I decided to stay, because initially
I was only gonna go for a few months.

00:36:03.542 --> 00:36:05.117
Like, I was like, if I'm
gonna do it, I'm gonna do it.

00:36:05.742 --> 00:36:05.892
Michael: Yeah.

00:36:06.487 --> 00:36:07.247
Mike: I'm not gonna stay in
rural China for three months.

00:36:07.407 --> 00:36:10.787
I'm gonna stay for the whole next
year and another semester beside.

00:36:10.792 --> 00:36:11.767
Everything was interesting,

00:36:12.352 --> 00:36:12.572
Michael: Yep.

00:36:12.867 --> 00:36:13.527
Mike: right, in a sense.

00:36:13.527 --> 00:36:16.767
Like, I have to go buy toilet paper.

00:36:17.457 --> 00:36:17.967
Interesting.

00:36:18.087 --> 00:36:20.937
There's a, there's a language there
or there's a navigation or there's a,

00:36:20.937 --> 00:36:24.567
you know, there's some, there's some
interaction that, for me, just everything

00:36:24.567 --> 00:36:29.457
was stimulating to a degree that,
that helped me roll with it in a way.

00:36:29.997 --> 00:36:33.117
So yeah, I think obviously it can
be discombobulating for a lot of

00:36:33.117 --> 00:36:35.307
people and it was for me plenty
at the time, don't get me wrong.

00:36:35.307 --> 00:36:39.357
Like, there was, it was not like,
you know, exclusively smooth sailing.

00:36:39.657 --> 00:36:42.417
But like overall, I, I
loved the experience.

00:36:42.417 --> 00:36:43.347
I had so much fun.

00:36:43.527 --> 00:36:49.077
I made great friends that, that, that day
to day like everything is an adventure,

00:36:49.647 --> 00:36:49.887
Michael: Yep.

00:36:50.187 --> 00:36:51.087
Mike: that was really fun.

00:36:51.237 --> 00:36:55.167
And, you know, to tie it back
to the parenting thing, I think

00:36:55.167 --> 00:37:00.777
as a lot of us know that there's
of course the most meaningful,

00:37:00.987 --> 00:37:02.637
you know, adventure side of it.

00:37:02.637 --> 00:37:05.397
There's definitely something that
does not feel like an adult adventure.

00:37:05.397 --> 00:37:08.667
It feels more like a very boring
routine that will go on forever,

00:37:08.667 --> 00:37:09.567
which of course it doesn't.

00:37:09.892 --> 00:37:10.242
Michael: Right.

00:37:10.417 --> 00:37:13.167
Mike: You know, it's like for this, you
know, period of time, whenever there's

00:37:13.167 --> 00:37:14.067
a problem, you're like, oh my God.

00:37:14.067 --> 00:37:17.367
Like, our daughter got bloody noses for a
while, and it was like, oh my God, we're

00:37:17.367 --> 00:37:18.197
waking up in the middle of the night.

00:37:18.437 --> 00:37:19.857
Well, will this ever happen again?

00:37:19.857 --> 00:37:22.617
And then, you know, or, or
ever stop rather and, and then

00:37:22.617 --> 00:37:23.787
one day it's just, it's gone.

00:37:23.787 --> 00:37:23.967
And,

00:37:24.292 --> 00:37:24.512
Michael: Yep.

00:37:25.047 --> 00:37:28.197
Mike: you know, and that, and then having
that, you know, not having a 7-year-old,

00:37:28.197 --> 00:37:31.077
obviously that kind of cycle has
played out several times at this point.

00:37:31.492 --> 00:37:31.842
Michael: Right.

00:37:31.857 --> 00:37:33.417
Mike: From what I hear,
that's how it keeps going.

00:37:34.977 --> 00:37:38.127
But that was just so different because

00:37:40.767 --> 00:37:44.007
stimulating is not necessarily the
first word that comes to mind for a

00:37:44.007 --> 00:37:46.017
lot of those day in, day out things.

00:37:46.017 --> 00:37:47.007
And it's not what's important.

00:37:47.542 --> 00:37:47.892
Michael: Right.

00:37:47.997 --> 00:37:52.107
Mike: I think that was the other part
of it is being like, my interest level

00:37:53.247 --> 00:37:58.797
is profoundly unimportant to the task
at hand, but including for me, you

00:37:58.797 --> 00:38:02.997
know, as your, as your values, you know,
come up in yourself as a parent in ways

00:38:02.997 --> 00:38:04.427
you didn't know until you had a kid,

00:38:05.142 --> 00:38:05.492
Michael: Right.

00:38:06.237 --> 00:38:11.517
Mike: you know, someone going,
oh, like, like, yeah, I like

00:38:11.517 --> 00:38:13.977
that, but I certainly can't do it.

00:38:13.977 --> 00:38:14.757
And I wouldn't.

00:38:14.757 --> 00:38:17.207
It's not like I miss it and
wish I could go back to that.

00:38:17.257 --> 00:38:21.197
I don't, but that kind of
left me feeling like, so, what

00:38:21.207 --> 00:38:23.937
do I want in this new space?

00:38:26.517 --> 00:38:30.057
Michael: How do you think
with, you look back now with,

00:38:30.087 --> 00:38:31.437
you have a 7-year-old at home.

00:38:31.887 --> 00:38:34.857
You went through these, lots of
different transitions, you know,

00:38:35.097 --> 00:38:36.927
some bigger than others, but

00:38:37.137 --> 00:38:37.257
Mike: Hmm.

00:38:37.347 --> 00:38:40.497
Michael: what do you think you got
right during these transitions?

00:38:41.499 --> 00:38:42.819
Mike: Like ask her in 10 years, right?

00:38:44.379 --> 00:38:46.419
So many moments I to
this day don't get right.

00:38:46.809 --> 00:38:50.019
You know, because day in, day out,
I feel like if you get 55% of your

00:38:50.019 --> 00:38:53.609
moments pretty right, you're like,
this is not the worst day as, as a dad.

00:38:53.609 --> 00:38:55.088
It really mattered to me

00:38:57.908 --> 00:38:58.658
to,

00:39:02.378 --> 00:39:07.538
it mattered to me to be less reactive
than I had been previously in my life

00:39:08.378 --> 00:39:12.398
and in, in a lot of different ways,
but it really mattered to me to go,

00:39:12.488 --> 00:39:22.658
there's some stuff that is probably
fine, but I want to change it because I

00:39:22.658 --> 00:39:28.973
think something better could be there,
and I think this kid deserves it.

00:39:30.353 --> 00:39:32.843
Which is very difficult, you know, and
I think every, I think a lot of parents

00:39:32.843 --> 00:39:36.593
have some version of that kind of a
thing where you're going, something

00:39:36.593 --> 00:39:40.373
that's come up in me, you know, whether
it's, it has to do with, you know,

00:39:40.373 --> 00:39:44.303
how I was raised, or how this, or just
beliefs that I've inherited that I never

00:39:44.303 --> 00:39:47.843
questioned before because it hadn't
become relevant, suddenly that comes

00:39:47.843 --> 00:39:51.113
up and then, you know, this part that's
popping up, you're realizing like, well,

00:39:51.113 --> 00:39:53.813
that's the real direct contradiction.

00:39:54.923 --> 00:39:57.443
You know, not just intellectually,
but like, I feel it with this other

00:39:57.443 --> 00:40:01.133
thing that I also took for granted,
and now I've gotta pick which one

00:40:01.133 --> 00:40:04.823
I'm gonna go with or find a third
way, or, you know, whatever is.

00:40:06.533 --> 00:40:07.163
But I do think

00:40:09.483 --> 00:40:14.603
not flinching from that reality is
something that I think I am trying

00:40:14.603 --> 00:40:15.923
to get right as often as I can.

00:40:17.023 --> 00:40:18.133
Let me, let put it that way.

00:40:18.373 --> 00:40:20.663
It is tough to figure out, but
it is, it is an everyday thing,

00:40:20.673 --> 00:40:22.293
it is a practice so to speak.

00:40:23.063 --> 00:40:23.303
Michael: Absolutely.

00:40:24.193 --> 00:40:25.413
Mike: Yeah, I think
that's what I would say.

00:40:27.568 --> 00:40:27.638
Michael: I love that.

00:40:27.638 --> 00:40:35.798
It's like, you've, patience became a
very real goal for you as a father,

00:40:35.798 --> 00:40:40.418
and I think, you know, I'm sure it
comes through clearly to your daughter.

00:40:40.418 --> 00:40:44.438
Like, we model the behaviors, whatever
behaviors we give, those are the

00:40:44.438 --> 00:40:46.268
models that our kids follow, right?

00:40:46.358 --> 00:40:54.728
And, to recognize that there's this
reactionary element, and it's okay

00:40:54.728 --> 00:40:59.738
to react, right, like you're going
to react to things, but can you do

00:40:59.738 --> 00:41:02.888
it in a more effective manner, right?

00:41:02.948 --> 00:41:04.148
Is there a better way to do it?

00:41:04.148 --> 00:41:06.638
And, you're not, like you said you're
not gonna always get it right and no

00:41:06.638 --> 00:41:11.468
parent does, and that's okay, but then
how do you respond to that reaction?

00:41:12.508 --> 00:41:17.018
So, like, I think it's only fair, I
asked you what you think you got right?

00:41:17.408 --> 00:41:20.648
What would you coach
yourself to do differently?

00:41:20.798 --> 00:41:23.828
Is there anything that you kind of
like, I probably could have done that?

00:41:25.433 --> 00:41:27.293
Mike: Yeah, one or two things.

00:41:28.253 --> 00:41:29.603
You know, get there sooner.

00:41:30.263 --> 00:41:35.883
No, I think, I mean, in a lot of ways, I
think the stuff I worked on, part of, I

00:41:35.893 --> 00:41:40.613
think I, I got, or am getting, I'm trying
to get right, is working on the things

00:41:40.613 --> 00:41:43.553
that are most important, like day by day.

00:41:44.873 --> 00:41:47.933
In the spirit of that, you know, I,

00:41:50.878 --> 00:41:53.453
I don't know if I could have done,
how much sooner I could have done

00:41:53.453 --> 00:41:56.423
some of those things because it's
very, like, start where you are.

00:41:56.543 --> 00:41:58.043
But you, you, you can
only start where you were.

00:41:59.513 --> 00:42:02.153
That being said, you know, I wish

00:42:04.613 --> 00:42:07.343
I had gotten better at some
of those things sooner.

00:42:07.823 --> 00:42:08.453
I think,

00:42:12.623 --> 00:42:17.303
I think on the reactivity piece,
what was hardest and eventually I

00:42:17.303 --> 00:42:21.803
had some, you know, I had some great
advice and great help from wonderful

00:42:21.803 --> 00:42:24.503
and very wise people here was

00:42:28.343 --> 00:42:30.893
not just accepting in the moment,
you know, you're gonna be more

00:42:30.893 --> 00:42:32.963
reactive sometimes, and that's
gonna, and then you're gonna go,

00:42:32.963 --> 00:42:35.723
ugh, why did I say it that way?

00:42:35.723 --> 00:42:38.843
Or why did I, why did I throw out a
punishment I knew I was not gonna do?

00:42:39.023 --> 00:42:42.173
Like, you know, whatever,
whatever the thing is.

00:42:42.458 --> 00:42:42.658
Michael: Right.

00:42:46.163 --> 00:42:49.073
Mike: But then on the night, you
know, the same thing being a day

00:42:49.073 --> 00:42:54.113
in, day out reality, whether or
not you turn it into a practice.

00:42:55.493 --> 00:42:56.573
Being okay with that.

00:42:56.633 --> 00:43:02.498
Being okay with being like, yeah, I am,
I raise my voice sometimes and I don't

00:43:02.608 --> 00:43:07.148
want to, and the sooner I was able to go

00:43:09.878 --> 00:43:13.478
get away from the, the, the, the very
black and white type of self-judgment

00:43:13.478 --> 00:43:18.728
that I think is so understandably
easy to fall into of like, ugh, I

00:43:18.728 --> 00:43:19.988
can't believe I did it that way.

00:43:20.198 --> 00:43:21.428
Why am I gonna do that again?

00:43:21.428 --> 00:43:24.578
Or I can't believe, you know, whether
it's, or you're too permissive in a

00:43:24.578 --> 00:43:27.238
way that you're like, ugh, I just let
them say that and then I, whatever it

00:43:27.238 --> 00:43:33.068
is, not seeing the long game, so to
speak, and just being like, oh, I, you

00:43:33.068 --> 00:43:38.888
know, I so wish spending too much time
thinking, you know, like, I wish I

00:43:38.888 --> 00:43:42.068
wasn't this way, or I wish I didn't have
to deal with such and such an issue.

00:43:42.068 --> 00:43:43.888
It's kind of like, well, you do, so.

00:43:44.393 --> 00:43:44.633
Michael: Right.

00:43:45.323 --> 00:43:50.933
So like a lot of, a lot of dads, you
know, they feel like they're reactive,

00:43:50.933 --> 00:43:53.783
but reactivity can be many things.

00:43:53.783 --> 00:43:55.223
It could be like an emotional reactivity.

00:43:55.223 --> 00:43:58.513
It could just be reacting to
if you feel like you're falling

00:43:58.613 --> 00:44:01.493
behind, right, and you're just
reacting to what's in front of you.

00:44:01.673 --> 00:44:06.313
I love your idea of like, this,
looking at this more long term, right?

00:44:06.873 --> 00:44:10.043
You can't just look at just
in that particular moment.

00:44:10.043 --> 00:44:15.113
It's, reactivity is a, a
stance over time, I guess.

00:44:16.163 --> 00:44:21.863
Like, if someone feels stuck in this
constant mode of reactivity, whether

00:44:21.863 --> 00:44:26.393
that's reacting to their child or reacting
to the work that's in front of them, or

00:44:26.393 --> 00:44:30.413
what they need to, to get done around the
house, or whatever it may be, do you have

00:44:30.413 --> 00:44:35.363
any advice of like where you would tell
a dad to begin kind of getting unstuck

00:44:35.363 --> 00:44:37.823
from this constant chain of reactivity?

00:44:39.413 --> 00:44:41.813
Mike: Yeah, I mean, you know, it's hard.

00:44:41.813 --> 00:44:44.333
It can look different for
everybody and all of that.

00:44:44.333 --> 00:44:47.873
But that being said, I think
for most people that I've

00:44:47.873 --> 00:44:49.643
spoken with informally like,

00:44:52.493 --> 00:44:56.483
there's just sort of basic awareness
building around, like when you are feeling

00:44:56.483 --> 00:45:02.633
that reactive thing, whatever you wanna
call it, like what, what can you notice

00:45:02.633 --> 00:45:03.983
about what's happening in that moment?

00:45:04.373 --> 00:45:08.573
And especially like, you know, check into,
if you're a person who like has good body

00:45:08.578 --> 00:45:10.373
awareness and you do that, absolutely.

00:45:11.753 --> 00:45:17.513
You know, for me there was a very clear,
oftentimes, mental loop where it's

00:45:17.513 --> 00:45:19.973
like, there was a message that's like,
this shouldn't be happening right now.

00:45:21.263 --> 00:45:24.143
You know, where if someone's, you know,
if there's a tantrum in a public place

00:45:24.143 --> 00:45:27.953
or if there's a or if the dishwasher
breaks because we were in a rental and

00:45:27.953 --> 00:45:32.543
then everything was 5,000 years old,
you know, whatever it is, but this, this

00:45:32.543 --> 00:45:37.973
message that I eventually, you know,
pretty quickly and with some guidance,

00:45:37.973 --> 00:45:41.993
you know, realized preceded maybe not
every single reactive moment, but like

00:45:42.143 --> 00:45:44.303
a lot of them, more than half for sure.

00:45:45.653 --> 00:45:47.793
Then it became a question of,
okay, now that I've noticed that,

00:45:51.098 --> 00:45:53.498
there's a number of ways
to try and neutralize it.

00:45:53.498 --> 00:45:55.508
Most of the time, for me, it
was like, why shouldn't it?

00:45:56.978 --> 00:45:57.368
You know?

00:45:57.368 --> 00:46:02.468
It's just as a, okay, we're gonna
accept reality instead of thinking

00:46:02.468 --> 00:46:05.198
about why something shouldn't
be the way that it obviously is.

00:46:05.528 --> 00:46:05.878
Michael: Right.

00:46:06.008 --> 00:46:06.428
Mike: And,

00:46:09.548 --> 00:46:11.798
that doesn't mean that
suddenly everything is solved.

00:46:11.888 --> 00:46:17.528
That certainly doesn't mean that like,
you know, your, your whole body is just

00:46:17.528 --> 00:46:21.788
suddenly, instantly calm or anything
like that, and your nervous system

00:46:21.788 --> 00:46:29.288
goes back to baseline, but it was the
start of going, it's just a thing.

00:46:29.948 --> 00:46:35.798
And if I can clock into this stress,
and for me, with my specific background

00:46:35.798 --> 00:46:39.968
and remember, you know, like sometimes
you just gotta go on stage, and you

00:46:39.968 --> 00:46:42.368
know what, if the other person's
late, the other person's late.

00:46:43.163 --> 00:46:43.403
Michael: Right.

00:46:43.453 --> 00:46:47.003
Mike: And if the audience knows that
something is very wrong, you still will

00:46:47.003 --> 00:46:50.303
just sit there and you'll like pretend
to eat the loaf of bread or whatever

00:46:50.303 --> 00:46:54.443
your stage business was supposed to be,
until it's like, you know, even my dad

00:46:54.443 --> 00:46:56.183
always says just something will happen.

00:46:56.633 --> 00:47:03.953
And that, that I think for me was, is
if I work with somebody or just talk

00:47:03.953 --> 00:47:08.453
with somebody, you know, informally
and that's not in there, it's kind

00:47:08.453 --> 00:47:09.863
of like, you know, learn your tells.

00:47:09.863 --> 00:47:12.743
Learn your, it doesn't
have to be all of them.

00:47:12.743 --> 00:47:13.463
Just pick a couple.

00:47:13.583 --> 00:47:18.083
Find a couple that seem to be in
there a lot of, usually it's some

00:47:18.083 --> 00:47:20.693
version of, this shouldn't be
happening or why is this like this?

00:47:20.693 --> 00:47:21.923
Or that is always blank.

00:47:23.063 --> 00:47:28.283
And finding a way to deal with
it that's not in reaction to that

00:47:28.283 --> 00:47:31.553
message, but is rather disbelieving
that message in some way.

00:47:32.573 --> 00:47:35.993
Michael: So, it's sort of a, there's
a couple of through lines there for

00:47:35.993 --> 00:47:39.368
me that, that pop outta me is like,
one is slow it down, right, of like,

00:47:40.763 --> 00:47:40.823
Mike: Yeah.

00:47:40.983 --> 00:47:43.103
Michael: Slow it down so you can
recognize what are some of these

00:47:43.103 --> 00:47:44.423
patterns that are happening, right?

00:47:44.813 --> 00:47:49.313
And then focus on what you can
control versus what you can't.

00:47:49.313 --> 00:47:50.963
Like, in the moment,
it's already happened.

00:47:50.963 --> 00:47:54.413
Like, you're not gonna be able
to go back in time and stop that

00:47:54.413 --> 00:47:57.143
tantrum from happening, but it's
like, okay, I recognize this

00:47:57.143 --> 00:47:58.133
is happening a couple times.

00:47:58.253 --> 00:48:05.693
What can I do differently to, you know,
adjust the situation going forward, right?

00:48:05.693 --> 00:48:10.913
And it's, then it's like,
what is, what's right for me?

00:48:11.153 --> 00:48:14.723
Like, in this moment, what's right
for those that are around me?

00:48:14.973 --> 00:48:15.393
Mike: Mm-hmm.

00:48:15.803 --> 00:48:16.073
Michael: And like...

00:48:16.073 --> 00:48:18.668
Mike: and I, I think that last piece is
so important, too, which I didn't say,

00:48:18.668 --> 00:48:22.238
but like, what's right for me in the sense
of the whole, your oxygen mask first.

00:48:22.238 --> 00:48:26.528
It's like, you're part of that
system and being like, yeah, I,

00:48:29.378 --> 00:48:32.688
like me, you know, I'm from, I'm from
the Midwest, so if we're having a

00:48:32.688 --> 00:48:37.313
public tantrum, you know, with the
kid, there's the whole world of like,

00:48:37.313 --> 00:48:41.033
you're, you don't want everyone staring
at you being like, why is this, you

00:48:41.033 --> 00:48:44.888
know, there, not that they're thinking
of it, but like, there's all, so I had

00:48:44.893 --> 00:48:48.563
to go, okay, if I bring the kid to a
public place between, you know, the

00:48:48.563 --> 00:48:50.783
ages of this and this, that does happen.

00:48:50.873 --> 00:48:54.413
I know that when that happens,
at some point it will, that's

00:48:54.413 --> 00:48:55.433
gonna be really hard for me.

00:48:55.433 --> 00:48:57.233
I'm gonna feel like this is a disaster.

00:48:57.473 --> 00:48:59.783
I'm gonna, I'm gonna panic,
I'm gonna feel like, whatever.

00:49:00.503 --> 00:49:05.033
And just recognizing like, that's
true and it's, I don't want to react

00:49:05.033 --> 00:49:08.153
to that feeling, but also like, it's
understandable why I have that feeling

00:49:08.153 --> 00:49:10.823
given, you know, where I came from,
how I grew up, you know, all the,

00:49:10.823 --> 00:49:12.173
all whatever, all the inputs are.

00:49:12.173 --> 00:49:16.643
Like, the fact that this is a really hard
moment type of moment for me to bear is

00:49:16.643 --> 00:49:18.743
not particularly mysterious actually.

00:49:19.103 --> 00:49:23.483
So, if I just accept that as part of it,
too, then maybe I can slow it down and

00:49:23.483 --> 00:49:26.873
get a, or if I include that when I slow
it down, then I can get a little space

00:49:26.873 --> 00:49:30.743
to just go, I just have to do something.

00:49:31.763 --> 00:49:34.928
It might just be, like, pick the
kid up and calmly walk to the

00:49:34.928 --> 00:49:38.558
car and buy the, you know, buy
the clothes later or whatever.

00:49:38.558 --> 00:49:39.038
It's, but,

00:49:39.188 --> 00:49:39.458
Michael: Right.

00:49:40.178 --> 00:49:41.198
Mike: yeah, anyway, sorry.

00:49:41.198 --> 00:49:44.768
That, but that's, really, the including
myself piece as opposed to like, why

00:49:44.768 --> 00:49:46.208
couldn't I have handled it better?

00:49:46.598 --> 00:49:50.648
Because I feel like that's another thing
that, you know, is, is very easy to

00:49:50.648 --> 00:49:55.148
fall into, is like, okay, so next time
I'll make a, so that the thing that is

00:49:55.148 --> 00:49:59.348
bad, that of course will happen again
at some point, but I'll tell myself that

00:49:59.348 --> 00:50:01.178
it'll never happen again if I do blank.

00:50:01.718 --> 00:50:04.538
You know, even if I'm intellectually
aware that that's not possible,

00:50:04.538 --> 00:50:07.208
there's this emotional story of
like, why did I let it happen?

00:50:07.718 --> 00:50:11.693
Like, as opposed to these things
happen, let's deal with it.

00:50:12.983 --> 00:50:13.263
Michael: Absolutely.

00:50:13.743 --> 00:50:13.903
Absolutely.

00:50:14.083 --> 00:50:20.033
And like, you, you know what
you want to accomplish there

00:50:20.063 --> 00:50:21.053
in these situations, right?

00:50:21.053 --> 00:50:23.093
And like, you know what you should do.

00:50:23.093 --> 00:50:27.413
And it's like, okay, I now need to
take that time to actually do it.

00:50:27.413 --> 00:50:31.163
And I think, you know, from what you've
told me about your coaching work, you do

00:50:31.163 --> 00:50:33.053
the same thing with your clients, right?

00:50:33.053 --> 00:50:40.433
You help them, your clients might know
what they should be doing, but they don't

00:50:40.433 --> 00:50:43.583
really know how to actually do it, right?

00:50:43.643 --> 00:50:46.073
And, I think it's the
same thing with parenting.

00:50:46.073 --> 00:50:50.063
It's like, we know what we think
we should be doing, but we don't

00:50:50.063 --> 00:50:53.033
know how to actually do it.

00:50:53.303 --> 00:50:57.953
What do you think gets in the way
most often professionally or at home?

00:50:58.558 --> 00:50:58.638
Mike: Hmm.

00:50:58.639 --> 00:51:02.484
Being too specific about
what the should is, I think.

00:51:03.834 --> 00:51:03.924
Like,

00:51:08.469 --> 00:51:12.399
there's, there's, of course, the
version of, of, I've heard coaches say,

00:51:12.399 --> 00:51:13.959
you're shoulding all over yourself.

00:51:14.049 --> 00:51:15.729
You know, like, I should
do this, I should do that.

00:51:16.059 --> 00:51:18.849
But there's a question of like
the specific messages, one at a

00:51:18.849 --> 00:51:20.169
time, where is that coming from?

00:51:20.169 --> 00:51:24.729
Is this should like, you
know, I really deeply value X.

00:51:25.599 --> 00:51:28.449
It's me saying this, or is this
just like you should be on time?

00:51:29.349 --> 00:51:32.679
I'm not saying no one should be on time,
but like, you know, that's the kind

00:51:32.679 --> 00:51:35.289
of thing, and maybe I just have more
flexibility there because, you know,

00:51:35.289 --> 00:51:37.539
I did, when I was teaching English,
it was a lot of international students

00:51:37.539 --> 00:51:40.719
who were adults and then you learn all
of these stereotypes that are kind of

00:51:40.719 --> 00:51:43.599
true, like on time doesn't mean the
same thing in Brazil as it means here.

00:51:43.629 --> 00:51:48.059
Like, that is true, you know, and then you
go live abroad, and you, you encounter a

00:51:48.059 --> 00:51:51.189
billion of those types of things, right?

00:51:52.199 --> 00:51:56.649
So, then, you know, maybe that's
like the early version of going,

00:51:56.919 --> 00:51:58.539
oh, I think everyone should blank.

00:51:58.539 --> 00:52:00.459
You know, I was teaching students
in the classroom and I was like,

00:52:00.459 --> 00:52:01.779
I think students should blank.

00:52:01.809 --> 00:52:06.639
I didn't know I felt that strongly that,
you know, about classroom procedure.

00:52:06.639 --> 00:52:09.939
But now that I'm here, I
realize I don't wanna be a

00:52:09.939 --> 00:52:12.459
disciplinarian of adult students.

00:52:12.459 --> 00:52:16.299
Like, that's whatever I think about,
you know, whatever received messages

00:52:16.299 --> 00:52:20.589
I have about the scenario, I know I
don't want to be doing what suddenly I'm

00:52:20.589 --> 00:52:22.719
finding myself almost doing, you know?

00:52:23.829 --> 00:52:29.319
And, so, I think that's like
thinking through when these like,

00:52:29.379 --> 00:52:31.719
oh, this should be like this,
or this should not be like that.

00:52:32.949 --> 00:52:36.129
Noticing those messages, but then
really thinking, okay, that specific,

00:52:36.129 --> 00:52:37.989
like where does that come from?

00:52:38.869 --> 00:52:39.089
Michael: Yep.

00:52:39.969 --> 00:52:44.019
Mike: That's a lot of it because I, I
mean the, the most basic example with

00:52:45.609 --> 00:52:50.559
career searchers is like applying to
jobs on LinkedIn right now is a hellscape

00:52:51.314 --> 00:52:51.534
Michael: Yep.

00:52:52.054 --> 00:52:57.354
Mike: of AI applications talking to AI
filters, and they're all, they're doing

00:52:57.354 --> 00:53:01.104
whatever they're doing, they gotta go
on the, whatever the new Meta product

00:53:01.104 --> 00:53:02.574
for chat bots is, I guess, I dunno.

00:53:04.494 --> 00:53:05.909
And people are getting passed
over, blah, blah, blah.

00:53:06.264 --> 00:53:11.544
And that's a whole ball of wax,
but the number of people I speak

00:53:11.544 --> 00:53:15.624
with informally who are just like
spending half their day on it

00:53:16.534 --> 00:53:16.754
Michael: Yep.

00:53:16.899 --> 00:53:19.674
Mike: because they, they should, because
like, you have to, if you don't see

00:53:19.674 --> 00:53:23.364
a high number of applications, how
do you know you're even doing work?

00:53:25.569 --> 00:53:25.719
Michael: Yep.

00:53:26.124 --> 00:53:29.334
Mike: You know, and you're
going, well that is one of many

00:53:29.334 --> 00:53:31.464
ways to measure your inputs.

00:53:31.934 --> 00:53:37.149
I don't know that, you know, LinkedIn
applications, at the moment, and

00:53:37.149 --> 00:53:38.559
I'm, I'm oversimplifying obviously,

00:53:38.624 --> 00:53:38.914
Michael: Sure.

00:53:39.144 --> 00:53:39.434
Sure.

00:53:39.459 --> 00:53:42.909
Mike: is the, if you rack up a thousand,
does that get you where you need to go?

00:53:42.969 --> 00:53:43.899
If you rack up 10,000?

00:53:43.899 --> 00:53:46.569
I don't think it does a lot
of the time, unfortunately.

00:53:46.599 --> 00:53:47.709
I don't think there's an easy answer,

00:53:48.194 --> 00:53:48.544
Michael: Right.

00:53:48.719 --> 00:53:53.229
Mike: you know, sadly, but, but that's
the kind of thing where people will go,

00:53:53.859 --> 00:53:57.639
I don't want to go network, or I don't
wanna even just have, and I'm like,

00:53:57.639 --> 00:54:00.939
don't, don't think of networking with a
capital n and all of the cheesy stuff.

00:54:00.939 --> 00:54:04.059
Just have coffee with people you like,
who you have professional respect.

00:54:04.059 --> 00:54:09.609
They'll say, I don't feel anything
happening, so therefore I need to, like,

00:54:09.699 --> 00:54:11.619
I need, I should feel something happening.

00:54:12.159 --> 00:54:15.459
And for a lot of people that
should, looks like a number getting

00:54:15.459 --> 00:54:18.849
bigger, a number of submitted
something, a number of interviews

00:54:18.849 --> 00:54:20.229
where you get closer to the end.

00:54:21.219 --> 00:54:25.749
It doesn't include things like, how
excited were you about that job you

00:54:25.749 --> 00:54:29.059
got towards the end for, you know,
which I think should matter, you know?

00:54:29.829 --> 00:54:33.699
There's practicalities, so I don't wanna
oversimplify, and I don't wanna minimize

00:54:33.699 --> 00:54:38.169
how difficult it is for people in that
situation, but that's an example of like,

00:54:39.579 --> 00:54:42.609
if you look at the should behind the
should, there's a lot of assumptions or

00:54:42.609 --> 00:54:49.029
there's a lot of just kind of beliefs
that are getting enacted without enough

00:54:50.979 --> 00:54:54.359
thought put into like, is this really
going to get me where I want to go?

00:54:55.149 --> 00:54:55.509
Michael: Right.

00:54:56.109 --> 00:54:56.529
I love that.

00:54:56.529 --> 00:55:02.499
It's, you know, challenge the assumptions,
right, because you, we tend to, to

00:55:03.189 --> 00:55:04.749
fall back on our defaults, right?

00:55:04.749 --> 00:55:08.649
And it's like, okay, well, I always was
taught that a bigger number is better

00:55:08.649 --> 00:55:10.929
than a lower number, so I'll just keep
applying to all these jobs and whether

00:55:10.929 --> 00:55:15.189
they're the right fit or whether they're
even actually hiring anybody or I have the

00:55:15.189 --> 00:55:17.229
qualifications for, or whatever it may be.

00:55:17.859 --> 00:55:22.139
Like sometimes quan-, quality
exceeds quantity, right?

00:55:22.139 --> 00:55:26.859
It just takes one, knowing one person
or getting one introduction into the

00:55:26.859 --> 00:55:32.799
right potential role that, you know, you
don't have to apply to 10,000 jobs if you

00:55:32.949 --> 00:55:34.599
happen to get that right introduction.

00:55:34.899 --> 00:55:38.349
Mike: Not to throw anybody under the
bus, I'm not gonna name, but I spoke

00:55:38.349 --> 00:55:42.671
with somebody who has, who had spoken
,who had been like on a really tough job

00:55:42.671 --> 00:55:43.991
hunt, like longer than a year, right?

00:55:45.191 --> 00:55:48.191
And we talked about some of
this, you know, kind of standard,

00:55:48.221 --> 00:55:49.571
standard networking advice.

00:55:49.571 --> 00:55:52.871
Like, you know, never eat, eat lunch
alone or whatever the, you know,

00:55:52.871 --> 00:55:54.041
those sorts of books and things.

00:55:54.051 --> 00:55:55.936
And it sort of made sense, but
this was somebody who's very

00:55:55.936 --> 00:55:57.376
like, kind of number oriented.

00:55:59.926 --> 00:56:04.096
A couple months later, whatever, we, we
catch up, and not only does this person

00:56:04.096 --> 00:56:10.371
have an interview, they say, I only got it
because I knew this person and blah, blah.

00:56:12.221 --> 00:56:12.361
Michael: Yep.

00:56:12.591 --> 00:56:14.206
Mike: I was like, that's the thing
we talked about with the book

00:56:14.206 --> 00:56:15.376
about not eating lunch alone.

00:56:15.466 --> 00:56:16.716
Like that's, that's a good thing.

00:56:17.066 --> 00:56:17.106
I mean,

00:56:17.116 --> 00:56:17.376
Michael: Yep.

00:56:18.016 --> 00:56:18.976
Mike: It has to happen some way.

00:56:18.976 --> 00:56:19.636
What's wrong with that?

00:56:19.636 --> 00:56:23.646
It was like, I didn't, I
didn't win the world's game of

00:56:23.646 --> 00:56:25.686
musical chairs, so that's bad.

00:56:25.806 --> 00:56:27.366
That means I'm bad in some way.

00:56:27.366 --> 00:56:29.886
And I was like, there are
other ways to interpret that,

00:56:30.601 --> 00:56:30.951
Michael: Right,

00:56:31.146 --> 00:56:31.236
Mike: you know?

00:56:32.151 --> 00:56:32.391
Michael: Right.

00:56:32.406 --> 00:56:32.856
Exactly.

00:56:32.976 --> 00:56:34.766
You actually won 'cause
you got the, got the...

00:56:35.676 --> 00:56:38.316
Mike: yeah, and, I mean, so yeah,
where did those messages come from?

00:56:38.316 --> 00:56:43.416
It's like, oh, if I couldn't stand out in
a crowd of 5,000, that means I'm horrible.

00:56:43.416 --> 00:56:46.896
As opposed to, I dunno, if you're the top
10 in a crowd of 5,000, you still don't

00:56:46.926 --> 00:56:48.216
get the job, but that seems pretty good.

00:56:48.906 --> 00:56:52.596
Now, because there's a, a concrete thing
you need at the end of that rainbow, I get

00:56:52.596 --> 00:56:53.896
that there's other pressures that come up.

00:56:54.286 --> 00:56:57.436
It's, it's not so much about saying,
you know, that's a good thing or a bad

00:56:57.436 --> 00:56:58.656
thing that this person thinks this way.

00:56:58.656 --> 00:57:02.421
It's more like recognizing, yeah,
we're gonna fall into default

00:57:02.421 --> 00:57:04.551
thinking that everyone does every day.

00:57:04.551 --> 00:57:07.491
Otherwise, your brain would run
outta glucose by 11:00A.M., right?

00:57:08.031 --> 00:57:11.511
You're gonna fall into patterns that come
from somewhere that you didn't pick, just

00:57:11.511 --> 00:57:15.081
because like we were raised somewhere
with other people, then blah, blah, blah.

00:57:15.831 --> 00:57:18.381
Recognizing those things as they come
up, which you're not gonna do every

00:57:18.381 --> 00:57:22.101
time, but here and there, if something
repeats, that, you know, you can,

00:57:23.031 --> 00:57:26.961
or if you're talking to somebody,
a confidant, therapist, a coach, a

00:57:26.961 --> 00:57:31.431
friend, a spouse, whatever, who's able
to reflect that a little bit for you,

00:57:31.431 --> 00:57:37.581
then you can go, yeah, why do I, you
know, not judging it, but just like,

00:57:37.641 --> 00:57:44.211
why does it feel like I lost when that
completely unrealistic odds thing happens?

00:57:45.606 --> 00:57:45.966
Michael: I love that.

00:57:45.966 --> 00:57:53.436
It's such a, it, it's, there's a
mindset shift there, right, of it's

00:57:53.436 --> 00:57:58.386
not always a numbers game or it's not
always what you were raised to believe

00:57:58.446 --> 00:58:03.576
or became to believe that sometimes
you have to put a different lens on it.

00:58:04.596 --> 00:58:07.866
It's just a really intelligent
way of, of looking at it.

00:58:08.136 --> 00:58:08.706
I appreciate that.

00:58:08.706 --> 00:58:12.066
So now I wanna go from the,
your intelligent way of thinking

00:58:12.066 --> 00:58:15.276
about this to something very
unintelligent, which is my speed round.

00:58:16.476 --> 00:58:16.746
Mike: Okay.

00:58:16.876 --> 00:58:18.906
Michael: Five quick questions for
you, have nothing to do with anything.

00:58:19.806 --> 00:58:22.806
And it starts with what's the first
kids show theme song that comes to mind?

00:58:23.706 --> 00:58:24.126
Mike: Bluey.

00:58:24.636 --> 00:58:24.996
Michael: Bluey.

00:58:26.226 --> 00:58:26.926
What was your very first job?

00:58:29.076 --> 00:58:32.286
Mike: I did, like, it wasn't
quite telemarketing, it was

00:58:32.286 --> 00:58:36.486
like customer research surveys
for local auto dealerships.

00:58:37.596 --> 00:58:37.806
Michael: Interesting.

00:58:38.016 --> 00:58:40.806
Mike: And, yeah, oh, I, it
was like three hours long.

00:58:40.866 --> 00:58:41.856
It felt like an eternity.

00:58:41.856 --> 00:58:42.576
I was 16.

00:58:43.266 --> 00:58:44.196
I hated it so much.

00:58:44.197 --> 00:58:45.247
It was a fine job, but yeah.

00:58:46.087 --> 00:58:47.377
Michael: Was it in
person or over the phone?

00:58:47.497 --> 00:58:48.337
Mike: No, this is over the phone.

00:58:48.337 --> 00:58:50.797
So, it was like I had a stack of papers
that, it was like little, it was a form.

00:58:51.227 --> 00:58:51.737
It was a checklist.

00:58:51.737 --> 00:58:55.282
I had to say the little intro from the
specific dealership that was like, so and

00:58:55.282 --> 00:58:58.642
so personally asked me to follow up on
the service for your blah, blah, blah.

00:58:58.642 --> 00:58:59.752
And then I would go through my form.

00:58:59.932 --> 00:59:01.432
Most of the time people
didn't answer, right?

00:59:01.432 --> 00:59:07.132
So, like, I would pray for
just like a chatty older person

00:59:07.422 --> 00:59:07.712
Michael: Yeah.

00:59:07.972 --> 00:59:09.232
Mike: because it would eat up 15 minutes.

00:59:09.292 --> 00:59:09.922
That was my favorite.

00:59:10.432 --> 00:59:11.602
Didn't get me to my numbers though.

00:59:11.872 --> 00:59:12.292
Speaking of, the,

00:59:12.367 --> 00:59:12.547
Michael: Right.

00:59:12.607 --> 00:59:13.432
Mike: getting the number.

00:59:14.077 --> 00:59:14.917
Michael: Fair enough.

00:59:14.947 --> 00:59:17.407
Would you rather spend 24
hours with a toddler-sized

00:59:17.407 --> 00:59:19.057
T-Rex or a T-Rex-sized toddler?

00:59:19.060 --> 00:59:20.616
Mike: I'm gonna go with
T-Rex-sized toddler.

00:59:21.401 --> 00:59:21.601
Michael: Why is that?

00:59:21.636 --> 00:59:25.326
Mike: Because, I think,
I don't like blood.

00:59:25.326 --> 00:59:27.596
So like the teeth, you're still there.

00:59:27.906 --> 00:59:28.011
You know?

00:59:28.011 --> 00:59:28.281
Michael: Yeah.

00:59:28.656 --> 00:59:31.956
Mike: Like, a mean chihuahua
is still very dangerous, but,

00:59:34.821 --> 00:59:37.011
how, yeah, I would be very
curious to see what a toddler

00:59:37.011 --> 00:59:39.081
is able to do at that scale.

00:59:39.771 --> 00:59:41.311
I mean, I wouldn't want them
my house, but, you know,

00:59:41.436 --> 00:59:41.786
Michael: Right.

00:59:42.021 --> 00:59:42.201
Right.

00:59:42.291 --> 00:59:45.651
Mike: in some, some sort, assuming
a safe-ish environment for that

00:59:45.651 --> 00:59:46.621
size, I think, it would be cute.

00:59:46.831 --> 00:59:47.901
Mostly, I just like toddlers.

00:59:48.351 --> 00:59:48.591
Michael: Yep.

00:59:49.011 --> 00:59:49.461
Excellent.

00:59:49.821 --> 00:59:52.821
What's your go-to karaoke song or
the one you would sing if you had to?

00:59:55.101 --> 00:59:57.261
Mike: If they have older
songs, I would do Crazy.

00:59:57.486 --> 01:00:01.316
The, the not the Beyonce, the Patsy Cline.

01:00:02.941 --> 01:00:04.581
Yeah, If they got that, I'll do that one.

01:00:05.121 --> 01:00:05.571
Michael: Awesome.

01:00:06.501 --> 01:00:07.251
That's a classic.

01:00:07.491 --> 01:00:09.666
What's the weirdest thing you've
ever carried around in your

01:00:09.686 --> 01:00:10.946
bag, briefcase, or pockets?

01:00:14.481 --> 01:00:18.381
Mike: Not too much, but I think the
first thing that comes to mind is

01:00:18.381 --> 01:00:25.866
like multiple different sizes of dance
belts that were owned by my school.

01:00:25.896 --> 01:00:29.286
So, they were like, meaning they were
not brand new that I had to try on.

01:00:29.436 --> 01:00:31.386
If you're, do you know
what a dance belt is?

01:00:32.396 --> 01:00:32.956
Michael: I think so.

01:00:33.486 --> 01:00:35.076
Mike: It's basically, yeah.

01:00:35.076 --> 01:00:38.286
So it's what ballet, male
ballet dancers wear under tights

01:00:38.586 --> 01:00:40.386
and it's like a padded thong.

01:00:42.036 --> 01:00:45.576
So, having like three of those that
were like given to me by my school to

01:00:45.576 --> 01:00:47.226
be like, which one do you like the best?

01:00:47.346 --> 01:00:48.216
Like none of them.

01:00:48.216 --> 01:00:49.446
You, you like none of these, right?

01:00:49.446 --> 01:00:51.156
These are not fun to wear
if you're not used to it.

01:00:51.576 --> 01:00:51.786
Michael: Yeah.

01:00:52.086 --> 01:00:52.236
Yeah.

01:00:52.236 --> 01:00:54.066
Definitely was not what I
was thinking it was, but

01:00:54.216 --> 01:00:54.366
Mike: No.

01:00:54.961 --> 01:00:55.251
Michael: yeah.

01:00:56.856 --> 01:00:57.126
Mike: Yeah.

01:00:57.606 --> 01:00:58.146
Michael: Fair enough.

01:00:58.746 --> 01:01:01.206
Before we wrap up, I wanna make
sure people know where they can go

01:01:01.206 --> 01:01:04.116
next if this conversation really
resonated with them, where can people

01:01:04.116 --> 01:01:05.406
learn more about you and your work?

01:01:06.786 --> 01:01:09.676
Mike: You can find me and my firm
online at analogpractice.work,

01:01:13.116 --> 01:01:15.876
and you can certainly just Google
my name, find me on LinkedIn.

01:01:16.926 --> 01:01:19.866
I'm available there, as well, but
the website is probably the easiest

01:01:19.866 --> 01:01:22.566
way to send me, send me a message.

01:01:23.346 --> 01:01:23.676
Michael: Awesome.

01:01:23.676 --> 01:01:24.651
I'll put that in the show notes for sure.

01:01:24.961 --> 01:01:26.976
Mike, thank you so much
for this conversation.

01:01:27.006 --> 01:01:30.786
I really appreciate how
straightforward and honest, and yet

01:01:30.786 --> 01:01:34.086
grounded, this conversation was.

01:01:34.086 --> 01:01:39.081
Like, you were just, I clearly did
not have the same experience that

01:01:39.081 --> 01:01:42.741
you have had and the way you have
gone through all these different

01:01:42.801 --> 01:01:50.241
experiences and the way you've managed
it and still sought ambition and still

01:01:50.241 --> 01:01:55.161
accomplished so many different things,
it's just so inspirational to me.

01:01:55.161 --> 01:02:01.401
I think it's just super cool and the fact
that, you know, you tackle fatherhood in

01:02:01.791 --> 01:02:05.451
a way that's, or you got into fatherhood
in a way that was different than the

01:02:05.451 --> 01:02:10.041
way I got into it, but we still share
some of, a lot of the same experiences

01:02:10.761 --> 01:02:18.711
as fathers, and it's just so cool to see
that there's different ways to approach

01:02:18.711 --> 01:02:25.131
it, and we all can kind of be there as
dads and be our own unique selves as dads.

01:02:25.131 --> 01:02:29.331
And I just, just the way you talked
about it to me was just so, so cool.

01:02:29.361 --> 01:02:30.161
I just really enjoyed it.

01:02:30.161 --> 01:02:32.381
So, I appreciate you joining me today.

01:02:32.381 --> 01:02:33.051
Thank you so much.

01:02:33.051 --> 01:02:36.621
I know dads listening are gonna walk away
with something they can apply immediately

01:02:37.491 --> 01:02:38.961
from what you talked about today.

01:02:38.961 --> 01:02:40.221
So, thank you again for being here.

01:02:40.221 --> 01:02:42.741
And, finally, before you go, if
you're a dad listening to this

01:02:42.741 --> 01:02:45.591
and you find yourself in between,
navigating a season that feels

01:02:45.591 --> 01:02:46.641
different, head to gaptogig.com.

01:02:47.181 --> 01:02:48.681
Subscribe to the Gap to Gig newsletter.

01:02:49.131 --> 01:02:52.431
Comes out every Friday, and it's a
quieter space to reflect on work, life,

01:02:52.491 --> 01:02:53.721
and what really matters right now.

01:02:54.111 --> 01:02:56.241
If this conversation resonated,
consider sending it to another

01:02:56.241 --> 01:02:57.261
dad who might need to hear it.

01:02:57.651 --> 01:02:59.181
Until next time, I'm Michael Jacobs.

01:02:59.451 --> 01:03:01.251
Thanks for showing up and
listening to Gap to Gig.